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View Full Version : For Sale Ads - Question



lynnl
10-03-2003, 12:39 PM
From time to time someone posts an entry on this BB offering items for sale, and is usually informed by other participants that's not appropriate.
Now I have no axe to grind either way on this issue. But the discriptions for the 3 categories (General, Networking, and Third Hand) do make it a little ambiguous (...to me at least.) The "Third Hand" description specifically states "...this is not the place to try to sell something" (or words to that effect). To me, the absence of that caveat on the other two categories kind of implies that it's OK in those two.

Frankly, I suspect many would like to see such ads (excluding recurring type ads) , but of course we all can appreciate the fact that ads placed in a free medium like this may well undercut revenue Village Press might otherwise get. So it would understandable if that is the wishes of the management. If so, I'd think it would be best to explicitly state that somewhere on the homepage or those other two category descriptions, to avoid any confusion.

Maybe Neil would address this.

Oso
10-03-2003, 01:06 PM
I think there is a little difference...

An announcement of your OWN ebay sale is a little like saying "here it is, folks, now be sure to bid it up nice and high for me". It is a little "off" to do that.

An announcement that something interesting is ON ebay from some unknown seller is different, and OK in my book.

And an announcement that you have something you want to sell, offering it to the members first is also OK to me, as it is actually helpful and on topic. I might be looking for one of those, or you might. That isn't a problem to me, its a service.

I don't even mind if someone says "if you guys don't want it I'll be putting it on ebay".

I also don't think that it takes much if anything away from HSM classifieds. I no longer would even bother to make the call to a classified ad in HSM selling a machine.

Have done it before, but after discovering that the items were sold a week or two earlier to someone who evidently got the mag faster than I did, phooey. I won't even bother, it just annoys the person who already sold it, and benefits only the long distance carrier.

Alistair Hosie
10-03-2003, 02:30 PM
OSO pointing members to bargains as such, not related to yourself as a seller I.E I saw this at such and such a firm and I bought one, or am intending to buy, one but would like advice, as to whether anyone else has one, or knowledge of this article etc etc has always been seen to be helpful. That is a big difference from saying I have this for sale who wants it? which I find could be a potential problem and inappropriate for this forum. I have seen this happen on another forum and it led to a bitter row. I feel we should not start that here quite apart from it is in breach of the rules which you sign up to. Alistair

merf23
10-03-2003, 04:24 PM
I for one would like to see members selling stuff...their own personal machining items, not running a business,. I would feel pretty comfortable buying from Thrud, IBEW, LynnL, etc. It seems that most of us are always buying equipment and/or selling our old equip for new and "improved" machines or tooling. Whenever i sell something at home, my friends always get first crack at it because they know me and we all have similar interests. I would like to buy/sell with my friends at HSM.net.
I understand that it could create animosity if there is dishonesty, no different than any other private sale. I have been buying and selling race car parts, old car parts, machinery etc and have only been stiffed for $30. Maybe a seperate category for classifieds would be helpful. Just my $0.02
Sean

Joel
10-03-2003, 04:43 PM
I personally have no problem with offering items for sale. As for people making us aware of deals, or giving us first crack, I think that is a good thing. If the frequency gets to be too much, we might have a problem. The less rules the better, as long as no problems are created. Flagrant attempts to increase profits by posting here will be met with disdain by the regulars.

JCHannum
10-03-2003, 05:05 PM
I think the question here is one of courtesy to our host.
Village Press and its publications; Home Shop Machinist, Machinist Workshop and Live Steam is kind enough to provide this site for discussion of machining related topics.
Their income is derived primarily from their advertisers.
Selling, or offering for sale items that would normally be advertised in these magazines is in conflict with these advertisers.
There are plenty of other places to advertise and sell your items. There are other web sites, and eBay easily available that are set up with this purpose in mind.
I do agree with lynnl, a disclaimer in each category's description would be appropriate.

Oso
10-03-2003, 05:28 PM
JC...I am puzzled....

You seem to be saying that if we buy or sell a used piece of our own equipment, on a one-time basis... we are "pulling the food from the mouths of the HSM advertisers' little children".

I assume that would be because we didn't scrap our old machine and have the other person buy a new (or newer) one of similar type from one of those fine folks?

What am I missing here? I just do not see that. A few private transactions which would certainly take place SOMEWHERE regardless...are a major revenue depletion?

As far as used dealers, there is Sobel (real ad) Joe Bergamo, Meridian Machinery (real ad sometimes), and Barry Aaronson. All on the east coast, inaccessible and therefore irrelevant to many of us.

I have bought from both Sobel and Meridian, but only small items that were practical to ship and buy sight unseen.

Griz ads regularly (Jet may, don't remember), and the little guys like Taig and Sherline are in there. Griz or jet are the only supplier of large machines, new.

That's about it, aside from tooling and accessories, books etc.

As I mentioned, the classifieds, which are where OUR ads would go in the back of HSM are

A) not very useful to potential customers (things are sold long before the mag arrives)

B) not very timely for sellers (delay in publication) Certainly nothing like the newspaper, or even ebay (which I do not use).

C) not a big money-maker for V-P either, at their rates and a half-page or so (due to A and B).

D) "pull just as much food from the advertisers' children's mouths" as anything we would do here.

Many of the adverts in the classifieds there are from the Joe Bergamo types....those who are apparently real and regular dealers in used equipment or other goods and services, but choose not to take out a more expensive "real" pay-for ad like Mr Sobel does, or as the scraping book guy does.(I don't know Mr Bergamo, he is probably a nice guy, he is just my example).

And, when a business opts (as they have every right to do) for a cheapo ad instead of a "real" ad, that also subtracts money from Village Press. Of course the business "pays" in lesser exposure, but you see the point. They are not supporting the mag. Maybe the business won't justify it...up in Vermont, by appointment....very select customer base, low revenue.

If what I alluded to originally above were really the attitude intended by the site owner, I would cancel my subscriptions to ALL their magazines today, and you would never see me around here again.....their choice, but that would be totally unacceptable and offensive to me.

Luckily I know that is not what is intended.

Now, for nitty-gritty issues related to supporting the publisher that hosts the site.......

I assume that all of us who use this site are subscribers to at least one of the magazines.....that would seem to be a more important support issue as equipment sales.

The magazine exists to serve us, and because we pay subscriptions and buy enough from the advertisers that they continue to buy space. The subscriptions probably pay only 25% of the costs. But ultimately we, as a group, pay all the costs thru purchases and subscriptions.

So, given a choice of equivalents, do we all choose advertisers over non-advertisers?

I certainly try to. Do you?

[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 10-04-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 10-04-2003).]

mike thomas
10-03-2003, 07:42 PM
I can't even give things away. Mike

merf23
10-03-2003, 08:00 PM
I will certainly abide by whatever Neil decides. I think calssifieds might increase web traffic to this site, which can only be beneficial to all.
BTW Joe Bergamo seems like a really nice, honest guy

docsteve66
10-03-2003, 08:18 PM
I belong to FMCA (Family motor coaching ass'n). Their site is free to public (of course) with some sections restricted to members. They Use the FMCA number and subscription date as password. long ago members could place a free ad in the mag-maybe they still can.

Might be HSM would allow selling things in a designated area, open to subscribers to Village press materials. ALlow mention in any place. That would cut the "conflict of interest".

I get a funny feeling seeing a first (and probable only) time poster here to sell. Conversely, when a lead appears, when a regular poster offers something, when a regular has a offering- metal cutting or not- I enjoy the offer.

MAybe, as several have said, this is like a "coffee break" talk. I like to know sam has a lawn mower or car or girl friend up for bids. But if Tom has a car lot- let him keep his business out unless he has a real good deal - but now I am splitting hairs again. I would object to (and have) a jewelry sale man invading the shop floor trying to sell Christmas gifts (a real example)- even if some persons bought and were pleased. Very hard question. I guess thats why Solomon was king.

I think the better course is just as it has been, if YOU think the poster is out of line, say so TO THE PERSON. My jaw kind of dropped when Dave (Thrud) objected, but I agreed.

By the same feeling- I would be unhappy if the Weird one had a a battle ship on dry land for a give away price and did not tell us first. (sorry Weirdscience- you were my best guess a a man who might possibly actually find a battle ship grounded) http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

I suspect the few "trolls" we see are not aware of possible offense (much less a violation of some rule). Once posted though the "ad" will stay and do its job until Neil objects and removes. I dislike ,extremely, RULES" that can not be enforced.

I object even more to Neil being the sole bad guy.

Maybe we are doing right just as we are.

Neil has "ruled" wisely, maybe he has a view point none of have considered. He has an Email address for all of us. Maybe he has cautioned already. Maybe a form letter?

I vote to continue as in the past.
Steve
PS- i did not know we were voting

Alistair Hosie
10-03-2003, 08:30 PM
Steve well said as always.I don't think anyone should take these criticisms personnally that is not what is meant I am sure.It does seem however that the tendency to offer for sale or advertise sevices has began to increase on this forum and perhaps this should be made clear that this is not in keeping with the rules we signed up to thats all.It does not seem fair to agree to this and ignore it when it suits us this is not fair to Neil or his team or the rest on this forum.My own personal objection is simply that it could lead to problems when articles are sold and the buyer feels that what he pays for does not meet the description accurately and vents this on the forum creating an embarrasing situation for all. Alistair

docsteve66
10-03-2003, 08:55 PM
AListair: Buying and selling is always risky. I would hope there is an exchange of info beyond what we see- But I was going to buy some diodes based on specs because I recognized they were a good deal- much better than I could ever hope to fine Else where.

But the real reason for this post is:

Lets not forget the several gifts exchanged and where we only knew of the exchanges from the recipient. If the needs were not known by free exchange of info they could not occur.

Myself EXCLUDED, we are a pretty good bunch to know. I'd pay more for a mail order machine from a person whose posts indicated honesty etc than from a stranger at EBay.

Alistair Hosie
10-03-2003, 09:18 PM
Steve that's a good point but unfortunately I have seen this turn sour on another forum (not engineering related ) there was a lot of argumentation surrounding an article described and then sold.I don't believe either the buyer or seller in that situation were rouges just had different opinions as to the condition/therefore value of the article sold quite clearly the buyer was not of the same opinion as the seller and made a furious attack on him publicly.Alistair

G.A. Ewen
10-03-2003, 09:37 PM
Alistair,
I think that you are right-on when referring to the difference of opinions between buyers and sellers. That is why it has been my practice to only sell after the potential buyer has inspected the item himself. I have on occasion bought things sight unseen but if I'm unsatisfied the only guy that I curse out is the guy in the mirror.

ARFF79
10-04-2003, 01:55 AM
To all:
Boy am I ever sorry that I stirred up this hornets nest. Some of the posts seem to be picking up an undercurrent of the type that Alistair has referred to. It was not my intent to join just to advert my sales, but to take part in what I see as a useful forum for all, from novice to retired tooling pro. In my reply to Thrud, I gave Neil my blessing to remove the offending post but since it is still there and drawing this kind of give and take, there must be some good in the exchanges. Along the same lines, ibewgypsie, if you still have any of those diode bridges left, please drop me a line as I would like one. I did not find those you had for sale.
Roland

Thrud
10-04-2003, 04:43 AM
My only concern is the survival of the BBS - Village Press our generous hosts have the right to allow or disallow any advertisments on the BBS.

I feel Neil would be well advised to set up a low charge commercial section for those wishing to hawk wares or services. I would not mind that at all. This would also be a good spot for advertisers in the Magazines to post links to their sites for potential customers. This proposed new section would have no "response available for comments". Perhaps the rates could be charged by the ad, week, month - whatever.

I do not feel someone offering something for free to another in need "selling" at all - it is called charity. I also find someone that spots a bargain on eBay and passes the site along just consideration of our peers. I frequently recommend sites or products that may be of interest to my fellow metalworkers, but I have no affiliation or financial interest in them - I would never do this.

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 10-04-2003).]

dhammer
10-04-2003, 05:35 AM
I agree with Thrud. Perhaps the moderators of this site would consider creating a classified forum.. for a fee if they feel it necessary. Machinists are always buying machines, tooling, materials etc and buying from people you've learned to trust would be better than buying from a stranger on eBay.

I have two good friends, machinists both ,who I met when they inquired about something I had for sale in local paper. They didn't buy the items but we became good friends. We have a small fraternity of machinists here in the northwoods and we're always buying and selling, trading and giving between ourselves.

Alistair Hosie
10-04-2003, 09:38 PM
Perhaps this would work I don't know.I like buying and occasionaly selling as much as the next guy .But I like this forum so much and the guys on it I would hate to see things turning sour between members at any point.Alistair

Joel
10-05-2003, 12:15 AM
All things contain risk sir Hosie. Things have turned distastefully sour before.

I fear that a separate ad area would require Ibew to post his rectifiers there next time. I would kinda hate to see that, especially since he probably wouldn't have done so. There was just an abnormal (still not much) amount of stuff offered up this week. I don't recall this happening before, so it may not necessarily be a problem. Whatever Neil says is fine, no problem either way for me.

Alistair Hosie
10-05-2003, 12:51 AM
no need to turn to childish name calling Alistair will do fine thank you very much. Alistair

Joel
10-05-2003, 01:39 AM
Um, actually it was meant to show respect with perhaps a touch of humor. Sorry.

Evan
10-05-2003, 01:43 AM
Alistair's humour may be a touch dry. Happens with those Scots. My mother-in-law is one.

I also point out that the appellation "Sir" is used normally in conjuction with the addressed person's first name. For really the best effect you should try to use the first of the middle names. This really tweaks them.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-05-2003).]

Alistair Hosie
10-05-2003, 08:45 AM
Evan it will be the only thing in DScotland which is dry http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Alistair

wierdscience
10-05-2003, 10:50 AM
Well this is a fine mess we've started,but here's how I see it,there are quite a few times when I have an excess of things I don't need,if I got them for free I usually give them away to those who have a need(called helping others,what this site is all about anyways)sometimes I have things I don't need but I do have money in and if someone on this post has a need or if I need to get rid of them without throwing them away I will offer them here at no profit,sometimes I have something that I need to sell to maybe make a buck or two,but its not worth paying for an ad in HSM,so now what?Many of the things I have laying around have little or no value to the average person,but are prized by those of us who munch metal and build things.

I do like the idea of a classified section,other forums have them,maybe we should to.

Doc,I haven't found a battleship yet,just an aircraft carrier.Its on Kuamchatca island in the former Soviet Union,I here its cheap,but watchout for the bears http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

BC21OSH
10-05-2003, 12:17 PM
I'm not offended by regular members of this board offering items for sale, however I believe we all need to consider what's in the best interest of The Village Press. There have been some very good observations stated already regarding this matter. I'm sure we all agree that the life of Village Press, the magazines they provide and this BBS are important to us. Maybe Neil could provide us with some guidance in this respect.

I have visited other metal working sites but have never participated in them. One, I don't find the format as user friendly and two, there seems to be a lot of personnel attacks against fellow contributors that I felt were uncalled for. They tend to be real sensative about topic. We on the other hand cover a diverse subject matter and I believe we all benefit from it.

I appreciate the many useful links that have been provided on this site and as a matter of fact, thanks to Dave's ( THRUD ) suggestion contacted World Wide Chuck Service and saved our company a significant amount of money on the purchase of a set of jaws for our lathe at work.

We have seen differing opinions on this board, strong ones at times, as one would expect from us humans. I believe this is good, as it promotes a healthy exchange of ideas. In the end though, it appears that there is a respect that can accept that we will not always agree, but we can still remain civil to one another.

I look forward to spending many more hours visiting this site.

Just my $0.01 worth,(May not be worth $0.02)

Bernard

ibewgypsie
10-05-2003, 12:42 PM
Hey,,'

You all talking about me? All the time I was Riding that old harley around the mountain my ears were burning, (and I thought it was the large firm breasts pushing my back making me glow) Now I know.. Ha...

You are of course right. Ebay brings more moola in.. but I like to help my friends too.
WE do need a posting site. (look out for commercial sales thou)
David..

Thrud
10-05-2003, 04:20 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:
thought it was the large firm breasts pushing my back making me glow</font>

Yup, that would do it for me too. The woman would be bonus material. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Alistair Hosie
10-05-2003, 05:19 PM
Ibew old son if your riding around on a harley with your firm breasts exposed sounds like you maybe don't need the money.A man with firm breast has all he needs.Can you cook sweetie we need pics http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif Alistair

ibewgypsie
10-06-2003, 04:10 PM
Alistair...

My firm breasts are attached to a females body.. HA... the ones on my chest are nothing to look at..

I can post pictures. The new apprentice, she is a honey attracting flies. From the local county cops to the truckers stopping by to spend a few hundred at the tattoo shop.

She entertains, I tattoo. Business grows. I just had another 500 feet of tubing dropped here at the shop-house. Bender is ready, welder is ready, frame jig is ready..

NOW I HAVE THE FLU.. Hot salsa, whiskey and vitamin C.. maybe tomorrow....



[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-06-2003).]

Alistair Hosie
10-08-2003, 03:41 PM
Ibew I know how you feel bud sleep it off then get started anew .I think your torture chamber Sorry shop is fantastic and wish I could do some of the things you turn out especially those custom bikes .Just saw a couple of guys here on UK TV from Melbourne Florida they make absolutely fantastic machines I have never really been a big bike man myself (never had the time) but those bikes look the business drool drool Alistair