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John Stevenson
11-20-2009, 07:25 AM
I know our National Health service come in for some flack but I have always done alright by it.

Last couple of days I have had a swollen jaw caused by I'm guessing an abscess under a tooth, so this morning after a restless night I rang the dentist up at 9:15 for an appointment.
"yes Mr Stevenson can you come in for 11 o'clock ?"

So quarter to eleven I set off for the Dentist, it's only a 1/2 mile walk, couple of minute wait and a checkup on the old teggies and yes it's an abscess.
Get a prescription for the Chemist and pay £16.10 for the check up, about $25 [ Dental treatment isn't free unless you are exempt but it is heavily subsidised.]

Walk to the Chemist, about half a mile and get the antibiotics for 10 days, no charge as I'm over 60.

Walk back home and carry on work. All this for a monthly cost of about 10 pounds to the health service.

.

andy_b
11-20-2009, 07:31 AM
How would you like the system if a government panel suddenly declared that an abscessed tooth was like a runny nose and would no longer be treated? In the US a government panel recently declared that women no longer needed to get mammograms until age 50, and even after that it was only needed every two years instead of every year. They also said there doesn't appear to be a benefit for women over 70. These guidelines will be used to deny mammograms to women outside this age group under the government funded health care system. This is just the beginning.

andy b.

KiddZimaHater
11-20-2009, 07:46 AM
UH-OH. I sense another 7 page battle brewing.

George Bulliss
11-20-2009, 08:11 AM
I'm pretty sure it won't make it to seven pages.

Evan
11-20-2009, 08:16 AM
:d :d
________________

Evan
11-20-2009, 08:18 AM
Hmm. Smilies not working.

John Stevenson
11-20-2009, 08:23 AM
Evan,
Don't be a tight arse, try CAPITAL D's :D :D :D

:D [ just checking ]

.

HSS
11-20-2009, 08:26 AM
LOL George, you slay me. LOL :D :D

Evan
11-20-2009, 08:28 AM
I did use capital Ds and it changed them to lower case.

John Stevenson
11-20-2009, 08:29 AM
I'm pretty sure it won't make it to seven pages.

Don't swine flue come under the UK health service ? Do I smell favouritism here ? :D :D :rolleyes:

John Stevenson
11-20-2009, 08:31 AM
I did use capital Ds and it changed them to lower case.

I have had that happen as well, didn't think much of it at the time, thought it was me.

I also have trouble at times with the spell chucker stopping part way thru a long post. If you right click and disable then enable it works again.

latest Firefox here.

.

Evan
11-20-2009, 08:32 AM
Abcesses aren't contagious

Evan
11-20-2009, 08:33 AM
First time I have seen it. I am using IE so it must be the editor.

JCHannum
11-20-2009, 08:35 AM
The fallacy of that, of course, is that it only costs ten pounds. The real cost of the service is much higher than that, it is buried in the enormous tax rate you pay and reduced level of service obtained.

This is a list of the tax increases of the bill going to the Senate floor this weekend for vote.

http://www.atr.org/userfiles/111809pr-comptaxreid(2).pdf

Tony Ennis
11-20-2009, 08:40 AM
Hmm. Smilies not working.

Don't worry Evan, they aren't needed. In the US at least, nobody smiles when talking about health care!

Evan
11-20-2009, 08:43 AM
I can't see national health care working in the US. Sound like a budgetary disaster in the making. As I recently pointed out we don't have national health care. It is funded from general revenue returned by the federal government to each province and is entirely the responsibility of each province to manage.

J Tiers
11-20-2009, 09:03 AM
I can't see national health care working in the US.

Agreed. As one of the most corrupt nations in the world*, the US has far too many hands out to take a part of any money that is paid anywhere. if everyone HAS to pay up, then the cost can be made so high that it will be a real burden, other than to the companies running it, and the exec's making a rakeoff.

* Not in small things.......... we like big cars, big teams, and huge built-in corruption. It's also known as "Wall street", or "the corporate world". Capitalism is completely unsustainable, unworkable, and the system sucks. The problem is that every alternative is even worse.

loose nut
11-20-2009, 09:11 AM
I can't see national health care working in the US. Sound like a budgetary disaster in the making. As I recently pointed out we don't have national health care. It is funded from general revenue returned by the federal government to each province and is entirely the responsibility of each province to manage.


Same thing only different.;) ;)

goose
11-20-2009, 09:14 AM
Walk back home and carry on work. All this for a monthly cost of about 10 pounds to the health service.

.


That's fantastic !

Got the same/similar thing here,- last month had a routine cleaning and follow up for a filling. Costs was nothing - nada - zero - zilch ! Not unless you want to formulate in the costs of monthly premiums for private dental insurance.

How odd is that? Something that works well without a socialist bureaucracy lending a helping hand.

I drove back and forth to the dentist, though..



Gary

2ManyHobbies
11-20-2009, 09:26 AM
Walk back home and carry on work. All this for a monthly cost of about 10 pounds to the health service.

Won't that be like $340 US by the end of the year? :p

Evan
11-20-2009, 09:35 AM
Have you tried pricing private dental coverage for somebody self employed?

Black_Moons
11-20-2009, 09:35 AM
Boston legal did a wonderful compairson in the ep I just watched..

IRAQ war, 600 billion dollars

free Health care for all who are uninsured, feeding every american, educating every kid on the face of the planet < 600 billlion, with lots of money left over for whatever other projects you'd want.

wendtmk
11-20-2009, 09:40 AM
Boston legal did a wonderful compairson in the ep I just watched..

IRAQ war, 600 billion dollars

free Health care for all who are uninsured, feeding every american, educating every kid on the face of the planet < 600 billlion, with lots of money left over for whatever other projects you'd want.

Well, if you're going to believe the world renowned economists on that TV show, I suppose you can believe that all that will happen for less than $600 billion.

Mark

Black_Moons
11-20-2009, 09:45 AM
Ok well show me evidence it would cost more?
600 billion dollars is a lot of money to waste on absolutely nothing.

Carld
11-20-2009, 09:51 AM
You can't really compair war costs and trade deficits to a health cost. Everything has to stand on it's own. It seems that many people and politicians are in favor of paying higher taxes and having an illusionary "free" health care. A wise saying is "there is nothing free in life, everything comes with a cost" and the cost for the seemingly free health care is going to be enormous and if everyone thinks the high income earners will pay for it they are dreaming or smoking Pot. The accounting office is taking over a Trillion dollars for the health care in the first three years but there is nothing to control the costs and PROFIT is still the driving force. Until we remove profit from health care we will see constant ridiculous price hikes.

The real answer it to put the health care into the hands on non profit public or Christian organizations. That would include insurance, hospitals, clinics, etc. and put caps on what doctors can charge. Boy, the fight to do that and remove the fat cats would be more like a civil war again. Man, the money would fly to buy the politicians vote and unless the people out bid the lobbyists we would loose just as the public always does.

Charles P
11-20-2009, 09:57 AM
Walk back home and carry on work. All this for a monthly cost of about 10 pounds to the health service.

.


Much as I love the health service I'm not sure that it costs £10 a month.

The annual NHS budget is near enough £100 billion.
If there are 26 million working adults in the UK ( a guessimate) that's £3,800 per year or £320 per month.

Charles

wendtmk
11-20-2009, 10:39 AM
Ok well show me evidence it would cost more?
600 billion dollars is a lot of money to waste on absolutely nothing.

And I throw it right back at you. Since you were the one that posited all that could be accomplished, show me how it would be accomplished using your figures of less than $600 billion. How many billions/trillions have been spent over the years on the "War on Poverty?" How's that working out? How many billions/trillions are spent on health care every year? How many billions/trillions are given to impoverished countries every year, and how many of those impoverished countries have worked their way out of poverty?

It's never really quite so simple as those impoverished minds on TV shows make it out to be.

Mark

HSS
11-20-2009, 10:55 AM
The US government hasn't had much of a track record running anything, except maybe running small business into the ground. Everything else is a failure.
The only venture that makes any money for the government is the IRS. Have you fed your government lately?

Patrick

Alistair Hosie
11-20-2009, 10:57 AM
look I fugure having a health service in the USA is afantastic idea but the doctors from what I read and dentists are too greedy.I was a dental technician here for nigh on thirty years and earned a good living but not anything like the dentists pay which is still much less than the states.greed I'm afraid.Alistair

JCHannum
11-20-2009, 11:10 AM
It is not health care, it is health insurance. It is such a good program that if you choose not to participate, you will be fined and could be jailed.

BillC
11-20-2009, 11:30 AM
JC add to that since its such a good plan why dont the polititions have to use it??

kf2qd
11-20-2009, 12:10 PM
It looks like the US sytem of "PUBLIC" health care is going to try to control costs by limiting what doctors can charge. Will it also limit what he can be sued for? Or is that just one of the costs he will have to bear? And how will the government keep doctors in the job who are no longer making money? The way the Democrats seem to be figuring is that just because the government gets involved all those kind of questions will just dissapear. The next thing you know the folks over in Jolly Old England will be complaining because we will be soaking up all those third world doctors who will work for minimum wage, and the the Brits will have a doctor shortage...

Congress has already shown how it will control costs - the same way they want to do with Medicade - Just reduce what you pay the providers and let them figure out how to survive. ( I have seen the Medicade payments - $0.15 on the Dollar, guess who pays teh difference?)

BillC
11-20-2009, 12:27 PM
The people of the U.S.A need to wake up,,,rationalized health care has already began the shortage of the H1N1 shots and only certain people can get them so the gov screwed that up already now women dont need to have breast check up as often now and till later in life when all along its been
"early detection" was the smart way to go and today there are saying women dont need to have pap smears till later in life as well whats next you wont need to have any check ups till mabe 40 or 50 yrs?.
The high cost of health care is brought on by the big law firms and big insurance companys deal with that first the cost will go down.

pgmrdan
11-20-2009, 12:36 PM
If you get a chance watch the Frontline show on PBS about the health care in other countries. Then you'll realize just how much the insurance companies in the US are taking us all for a ride.

One year my health insurance premiums at work went up 85%.

A retired couple I know had to pay $1,800 per month for health insurance and that was 10 years ago. No telling what it would cost now.

My daughter was in a car accident 4 months ago and stayed in the hospital less than 24 hours for observation. That cost just under $19,000. She had no injuries other than bruises.

US health insurance is unsustainable. In 10 years many of us will not be able to afford health care.

National health care is quite successful in several other countries with satisfied customer.

I was notified this week that my health insurance premiums will go up $40 a month beginning January 1 and our portion to pay will go up significantly every time we visit our doctors.

I'm not satisfied with my health insurance. Are you?

Your Old Dog
11-20-2009, 12:38 PM
John, you boasting buzzard. You still got teeth?

pgmrdan
11-20-2009, 12:43 PM
The people of the U.S.A need to wake up,,,rationalized health care has already began the shortage of the H1N1 shots and only certain people can get them so the gov screwed that up already now women dont need to have breast check up as often now and till later in life when all along its been
"early detection" was the smart way to go and today there are saying women dont need to have pap smears till later in life as well whats next you wont need to have any check ups till mabe 40 or 50 yrs?.
The high cost of health care is brought on by the big law firms and big insurance companys deal with that first the cost will go down.


Since we don't have any nationalized health care how can you attribute the H1N1 vaccine shortage and the change in policy regarding mammograms to national health care?

The first poster on the mammogram issue also stated some inaccurate information.

There were several problems that caused the H1N1 vaccine shortage. The shortage is being handled as correctly as possible.

MrSleepy
11-20-2009, 12:55 PM
Well...I for one feel lucky to be in the UK under the NHS..

I'm 42 and 3 years ago had a fibro myxoid sarcoma removed from my wrist..

Ten days after spotting the lump in my wrist I was in Castle hill having it removed... I ve had monthly, then 6 monthly magnetic scans and I'm all clear..

Had I been in the US I would probably be still putting it off...worried that it may bankrupt me....allowing it to spread and do its dirty work (in the marrowbone and lungs)...

Rob

BillC
11-20-2009, 01:29 PM
pgmrdan you are correct at this time we dont have "national health care" but the gov is make up these guide lines for when and how these check ups are going to be done. As far as H1N1 the gov had alot of time to prepare for this and still messed it up. I belive that most people want and need some sort of health care and can not afford it, but having our gov run it is the wrong idea
whats the cost of this National health care going to be at the end of all this the gov never gets the right estimates not even close so 2 3 trillion for rationalized health care? it will be a mess as long as the current admin is in charge.

andy_b
11-20-2009, 01:31 PM
Ok well show me evidence it would cost more?
600 billion dollars is a lot of money to waste on absolutely nothing.

And the US govt proves that every day. :)

andy b.

A.K. Boomer
11-20-2009, 01:51 PM
I'm pretty sure it won't make it to seven pages.


That was a good one GB, you better keep an eye peeled though cuz its getting there fast!

lazlo
11-20-2009, 01:52 PM
The annual NHS budget is near enough £100 billion.
If there are 26 million working adults in the UK ( a guessimate) that's £3,800 per year or £320 per month.

That's cheap. We spend more than twice per capita for healthcare than the UK.

That's because we're the only country on earth that makes healthcare a capitalist endeavor. So 30 cents on every healthcare dollar spent goes to the health insurance companies, that provide no value add, other than serving as a middle-man between the doctor and patient.

FACTBOX: Healthcare costs in U.S. vs. rest of world (http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE54Q3RG20090527)

(Reuters) - The United States spends more on healthcare than any other country in the world but has higher rates of infant mortality, diabetes and other ills than many other developed countries.
Here is a comparison of the United States' healthcare costs versus those of selected other countries in 2006:

UNITED STATES: 15.9 pct of GDP, $6,657 per capita

BRAZIL: 7.9 pct of GDP, $371 per capita

CANADA: 9.7 pct of GDP, $3,430 per capita

CHINA: 4.7 pct of GDP, $81 per capita

FRANCE: 11.1 pct of GDP, $3,807 per capita

GERMANY: 10.7 pct of GDP, $3,628 per capita

INDIA: 5.0 pct of GDP, $36 per capita

ISRAEL: 7.9 pct of GDP, $1,533 per capita

JAPAN: 8.2 pct of GDP, $2,936 per capita

MEXICO: 6.4 pct of GDP, $474 per capita

SOUTH AFRICA: 8.7 pct of GDP, $437 per capita

SWEDEN: 8.9 pct of GDP, $3,598 per capita

RUSSIAN FEDERATION: 5.2 pct of GDP, $277 per capita

UNITED KINGDOM: 8.2 pct of GDP, $3,064 per capita

dp
11-20-2009, 01:57 PM
That's cheap. We spend more than twice per capita for healthcare than the UK.

That is not the cost of health care - that is the cost of health insurance. You're not required to buy insurance (yet).

lazlo
11-20-2009, 01:59 PM
It is not health care, it is health insurance. It is such a good program that if you choose not to participate, you will be fined and could be jailed.

Come on Jim, that's BS. The Public Option is Medicare For All. You choose whether you want to be on it.

This is one of the Rocket Scientists who was protesting Government-Run healthcare at one of the Fox Tea Parties:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Bubba.png

An explanation of the stupidity for our British counterparts: Medicare is socialized medicine in the purest sense of the word. And yet, a great many of those on Medicare don't want it expanded to those who don't have healthcare. In other words, they want the government to pay for their healthcare, but they don't want the government to pay for your healthcare.

How nice.

About 1/3 of the uninsured in the US are small business owners. Another 1/3 are those who were laid-off in the last three years...

lazlo
11-20-2009, 02:02 PM
That is not the cost of health care - that is the cost of health insurance.

That's the cost that each person pays, on average, for health care. In other words, that includes the uninsured, who have to pay $800 for a broken arm, or the guy who posted here that he paid $1,373 for a sonagram, because he was uninsured.

ptjw7uk
11-20-2009, 02:12 PM
Only problem with any form of public service dished out for free is the level of abuse it suffers!
I always think its better to have some form of charge just to discourage
malingering.

Peter

Evan
11-20-2009, 02:19 PM
I was going to stay out of this . Oh well.



That's because we're the only country on earth that makes healthcare a capitalist endeavor.

That is not true. A quick look in the telephone listings turns up 69 entries for private clinics up to and including full surgical centres here in BC. They also have many private clinics in Germany and other European countries.

Here are just a few examples from BC.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Canada Diagnostic Centres - CT & MRI (more...) 1-877-709-xxxx

See all locations
Private MRI, CT, and Ultrasound Quick Access / Early Detection Since 1994 All Major Credit Cards Accepted
-----------------------------------------
False Creek Surgical Centre (more...) 604-739-xxxx
Vancouver, BC,
A Multi Speciality Surgery Centre with 4 state of the art operating theatres. Our mission is to provide excellence in...
Website | Map
----------------------------------------------
Park Royal Medical Clinic (more...) 604-922-xxxx

West Vancouver, BC
ACUTE & AFTER HOURS CARE NO APPOINTMENT NECESSARY M-F 8:30am - 9:00pm Sat-Sun 9:00am - 9:00pm

---------------------------------------------------
Pacific Centre For Reproductive Medicine Inc 604-422xxxx

Canada Way, Burnaby, BC, V5G4X7

------------------------------------------------
ForeMed Clinics Inc (more...) 604-904-xxxx

Lonsdale Clinic V7M1T3
• FAMILY PRACTICE • ACCEPTING NEW PATIENTS DR. L CORCORAN DR. M MCDONALD DR. H MCLEOD

---------------------------------------------------

dp
11-20-2009, 02:29 PM
That's the cost that each person pays, on average, for health care. In other words, that includes the uninsured, who have to pay $800 for a broken arm, or the guy who posted here that he paid $1,373 for a sonagram, because he was uninsured.

Then what are we to make of this part of what you said:


So 30 cents on every healthcare dollar spent goes to the health insurance companies, that provide no value add, other than serving as a middle-man between the doctor and patient.

You are not required to pay this.

lazlo
11-20-2009, 02:36 PM
That is not true. A quick look in the telephone listings turns up 69 entries for private clinics up to and including full surgical centres here in BC.

Sure, doctors, clinics and hospitals are well-paid all over the world. That's not the issue.

The issue with the American system is that we have a trillion dollar/year health care industry that makes money by meting-out healthcare services. In other words, they're paying themselves a trillion dollars/year to serve as nothing more than a middle-man between the patient and the doctor.

Hell, the healthcare industry spent $400 Million (of our health insurance premiums) lobbying against healthcare reform in the first 9 months of the year. By year's end, they will easily have surpassed the $600 Million/year that's been mentioned as the incremental cost of expanding Medicare to the remaining 30 million uninsured.

Tony Ennis
11-20-2009, 02:40 PM
health insurance companies, that provide no value add

Insurance companies keep me from being financially devastated in case I have a problem. That's a value-add. Otherwise insurance companies would not exist... right?

Less than 20% of Americans are uninsured using the Presidents partisan numbers. I find it beyond curious we're ganking 80% to serve 20%.

There are cheaper and better solutions. And if one isn't found, I want a tax increase or a spending cut in other programs so it can be paid for.

I would like to see a breakdown of where all the money being spent on healthcare is actually going.

lazlo
11-20-2009, 02:46 PM
So 30 cents on every healthcare dollar spent goes to the health insurance companies, that provide no value add, other than serving as a middle-man between the doctor and patient.
You are not required to pay this.

Sure you are, unless you're the 1/3 of Americans who are covered by governement run health insurance, like Medicare, VA, or the Government Employees health plan (that congress has).

If you're paying a health insurance premium for private insurance, you and your employer are paying the 30 cents on a dollar so Edward Hanway, the CEO of Cigna, can be paid $50 Million/year.

Now, if you're implying that I can opt-out of my health insurance plan, that's not an option in the US. Because, as KiddZimaHater found out the hard way, the health insurance companies have price-fixed the system such that the uninsured have to pay 10 times the cost of medical services that the health insurance company pays.

In other words, you can chose not to pay $800/month for health insurance like everyone here does, and instead you get to pay $1300 for a sonagram that costs Cigna $130.

BillC
11-20-2009, 02:49 PM
One thing is for sure the system is very complex and very corrupt. To me the pharmaceutical companies and the insurance company's should get together and subsides some sort of low cost plans for the public as to the government taking it over.

lazlo
11-20-2009, 02:50 PM
health insurance companies, that provide no value add
Insurance companies keep me from being financially devastated in case I have a problem.

Think about that for a second. Why is the US the only country in the world where illness a catastrophic financial event?

Illness is not a catastrophic financial event if you're on Medicare, or VA, and you're "being ganked" for that right now. So you're willing to pay for retired people and veterans to be covered by socialized medicine, but you're not willing to pay for small business owners, and the 10 million people who have been laid-off in the last 3 years?

Evan
11-20-2009, 02:53 PM
Sure, doctors, clinics and hospitals are well-paid all over the world. That's not the issue.

Robert, those are PRIVATE for PROFIT clinics I listed. They are not a part of the government health care system here. We have both.

lazlo
11-20-2009, 02:57 PM
Robert, those are PRIVATE for PROFIT clinics I listed. They are not a part of the government health care system here. We have both.

Sure, that's the case in any industrialized nation. Most of those doctors are cross-listed on the National healthcare plan too, right? I know that's the case in the UK.
In the US, If you're on Medicare or private health insurance, you can go to any doctor who takes your insurance. All doctors, and most hospitals and clinics are for-profit. Doctors in Canada get paid roughly the same as they do in the US.

The reason our per-capita health care is so much more expensive than Canada, is because the privately insured have a trillion dollar Mafia that prevents you from getting services directly from the doctors.

That's why the American Medical Association is a sponsor of the health care reform bill. Doctors, hospitals and clinics get screwed as much as the patients in our system.

Evan
11-20-2009, 03:18 PM
Most of those doctors are cross-listed on the National healthcare plan too, right?

We don't have a national plan.

No, they are not permitted to work both privately and under the Provincial public plan. It's one or the other.

boslab
11-20-2009, 04:22 PM
Have you tried pricing private dental coverage for somebody self employed?
i have to have all my teeth removed due to the side effects of heart meds [the gums seperated when i had 2 huge doses of heprin, i'm not complaining as i'd rather be alive]
however the choice is then loose dentures which will be a nightmare or fixed ones which sound better, however [i'm still waiting for the dental clearance]
the NHS dosent supply the fixed alternative so the est i can find is a fixed set privately.
Cost £20.000 [$33000], thats going to stick a hole in the budget!
the interesting thing is the money goes to a dentist who was trained by the NHS, in a NHS hospital, with a NHS anethsetist/nurse/auxilliary.
Dont think its fair that these dentists opt out of the nhs and still profit from the use of its facillities,
private dentists earn an awful lot [£50000 plus] to start
if they want to opt out they should repay what it cost the taxpayer to train them and certainly not be allowed to use the taxpayer to further subsidise thier income by useing NHS facillities to do thier private work in free of charge [almost]
Im considering crossing the pond for my dental work! My Aunt and uncle are American i wonder if theyl let me stay?[the Goverment]
mark

Tony Pratt
11-20-2009, 05:21 PM
I haven't read all the replies to the original post and I'm not going too !!! With all it's flaws the NHS is hard to beat unless you have loads of money. Insurance based health care is OK if you are not ill. LOL. My aunty who has lived in the US for 40 plus years and still a UK citizen says to me at every opportunity " don't get rid of the NHS". It may be something to do with her giving birth to a disabled child and having to take out a 2nd mortgage to care for it, unfortuanately the baby died, but the debts continue.

Have a good day

Tony

tattoomike68
11-20-2009, 05:50 PM
I have medicare and went to an ear doctor over an ear that bleeds (alot of blood)and I cant hear anything out of it. he looked in it and said I dont see anything and charged $395 to madicare and I have to pay $36.00.

he looked in my ear, its not like his nurse gave me a blow job. no way was it worth $395 to look in my ear and see nothing.
Im not paying that quack, he can sue me. im turning him in.

I was also cut off medicade because I get over $318 a month from dissabillity, so if you make over $3,816 a year you dont qualify for medicade.

I live on less than $6,000 a year and am getting crapped on now, I dont see things getting better in the USA in my life time.

andy_b
11-20-2009, 06:04 PM
About 1/3 of the uninsured in the US are small business owners. Another 1/3 are those who were laid-off in the last three years...

WRONG. The majority of the uninsured in this country are here illegally. I doubt 1/3 of them are small business owners. And as for them being laid off, most work for cash so the govt has no idea if they are laid off or not.

I like what you say lazlo, and agree with many of the points you raise in all of these types of threads, but the Pelosis and Reids of the world most certainly plan to cover people here illegally in their plans, and the numbers of uninsured they quote reflect that.

I do agree that of the people here LEGALLY the numbers you quote are probably correct (but are only several million, not tens of millions as Congress would have us believe). And those people would always end up uninsured for short periods of time when between jobs, unless the govt provides "free" health care for everyone.

There was a quote I read in one of the blogs (it may have been Camille Paglia) that stated basically "people will live as long as they can afford to". In other words, they will do whatever they can to live as long as they can until they run out of money. Quite frankly, I don't want the government keeping everyone alive as long as possible until they run out of MY money. Sorry, I'm just a selfish bastard.

andy b.

mardtrp
11-20-2009, 06:12 PM
UH-OH. I sense another 7 page battle brewing.


Just thought I would add something, so that it became another 7 page bunch of tripe.:p :p :p :p

mark

aboard_epsilon
11-20-2009, 06:28 PM
I have medicare and went to an ear doctor over an ear that bleeds (alot of blood)and I cant hear anything out of it. he looked in it and said I dont see anything and charged $395 to madicare and I have to pay $36.00.

he looked in my ear, its not like his nurse gave me a blow job. no way was it worth $395 to look in my ear and see nothing.
Im not paying that quack, he can sue me. im turning him in.

I was also cut off medicade because I get over $318 a month from dissabillity, so if you make over $3,816 a year you dont qualify for medicade.

I live on less than $6,000 a year and am getting crapped on now, I dont see things getting better in the USA in my life time.

There you go guys from the horses mouth ..from someone that needs it ..and tries to use it.
and probably the case for the millions of now unemployed since the downturn.

That about sums up your health care system.


If they abolished the national health here .......
not sure id want to live here any longer ...

all the best.markj

lazlo
11-20-2009, 06:55 PM
The majority of the uninsured in this country are here illegally. I doubt 1/3 of them are small business owners. And as for them being laid off, most work for cash so the govt has no idea if they are laid off or not.

Hey, I agree completely that we shouldn't insure illegal immigrants. I know this is a fierce topic in Congress, but I don't understand why it's so complicated?
When anyone files health insurance paperwork, whether you're privately insured, or Medicare, or VA, or whatever, you have to provide your social security number, insurance program number, and subscriber ID number.

The healthcare bill specifically says that it would cover only US Citizens, but the Republicans are concerned that there's a loophole? If there is, fix it! Seems pretty straightforward.

Hell, I have a hard enough time getting my legitimate health benefits paid for -- how many times have you had an EOB kicked back from the insurance company because some billing code (that the doctor's office filed) was wrong? I just don't see how illegals are circumventing the system?

I also agree that there's no consensus on the actual number of uninsured, but it's large by even the most conservative estimates. We know for sure that there are 15 million people that are currently unemployed, and 10 million of those were actively working and laid-off in the last 3 years.

Self-employed and small business owners are obviously not covered, because the modus operandi these days is for large companies to negotiate individual health insurance contracts with the various insurance companies.

The US Chamber of Commerce says that 60% of the uninsured work for small businesses:

http://www.uschamber.com/issues/index/health/ahps.htm

We've been going to the same restaurant for years, and our waitress, who's been a regular there for just as long, told us last night that she was leaving. Most restaurants don't provide health insurance for waitresses, and she's turning 25, so she's not allowed to be covered under her father's insurance anymore.

BillC
11-20-2009, 07:05 PM
As far as illegal aliens go at least in Ca they can go to any hospital to get treatment they cant be turned away. I am a small business owner there is noway that i could afford health coverage for my self or my employees the cost of doing business here in Calif is so high because of big government thats one reason for me the gov needs to stay out of everything right or left.

pgmrdan
11-20-2009, 07:30 PM
Work provided health insurance should be a choice for the employer. It's a work benefit, not a right. If the employer decides to provide health insurance to lure people to work for his/her company then fine. If the employer decides not to offer health insurance then that's fine too.

On the flip side everyone should be able to get health care without the fear of going bankrupt, losing the house, losing the car, etc. Health care should not be a profit making enterprise.

I mentioned before that when my daughter spent less than 24 hours in the hospital for observation with no problems other than bruises it cost just under $19,000. Yep, they did a lot of tests that needed to be done.

How in the world can a not-for-profit Catholic hospital charge almost $19,000 dollars for a stay of less than a day??? It's to make up for the non-paying patients.

Through insurance we're already paying for the care of others. That's the whole point of insurance; spread the risk around so no on gets killed financially. But it's not working. What's happening is that everyone that pays is or will soon be getting killed financially. Insurance will only be available to the rich and it will cost a fortune while the non-rich will not be able to afford insurance and will be subjected to the whims of the care givers.

That's just not right.

We can fix it now or we can fix it later but either way we're going to have to fix it.

Better now than later.

clutch
11-20-2009, 07:46 PM
I keep hearing about the public option. Listening to C-Spans Washington Journal call in segments, I get the impression that a lot of people think they are going to get excellent health care for an outlay of 100-200 dollars a month or so.

Has anyone broke down what a single person will pay in taxes on say 20,000 30,000 40,000 ... for the public option?

Clutch

dp
11-20-2009, 07:51 PM
I keep hearing about the public option. Listening to C-Spans Washington Journal call in segments, I get the impression that a lot of people think they are going to get excellent health care for an outlay of 100-200 dollars a month or so.

Has anyone broke down what a single person will pay in taxes on say 20,000 30,000 40,000 ... for the public option?

Clutch

Unless they do something about cost, which I've yet to see in the bills discussed, it will be cost/n participants. That is about what it is today. If they do it like SS then any overages will go into the general fund.

v860rich
11-20-2009, 08:56 PM
UH-OH. I sense another 7 page battle brewing.
Hey, look we're on page 7!!!

THANX RICH

People say I'm getting crankier as I get older. That's not it. I just find I enjoy annoying people a lot more now. Especially younger people!!!

John Stevenson
11-20-2009, 09:11 PM
Not if you choose 50 posts per page :D

Anyway George is on holiday until monday :rolleyes:

Even our swine flue treatment is free.............................:cool:

.

andy_b
11-20-2009, 09:49 PM
I mentioned before that when my daughter spent less than 24 hours in the hospital for observation with no problems other than bruises it cost just under $19,000. Yep, they did a lot of tests that needed to be done.

How in the world can a not-for-profit Catholic hospital charge almost $19,000 dollars for a stay of less than a day??? It's to make up for the non-paying patients.


I was at a few of the local health care townhall meetings (they were all very civil in my area). There was a doctor at one who has a private practice, not affiliated with a local hospital. Yeah, I realize he has some self interest in all of this. Anyway, he said he charges $900 for a MRI. The local hospital charges $9000! He was at some conference and one of the hospital administrators was there and the doc was just hanging out with the admin and asked why they charge 10x what he charges and they said they need to make up the difference for all the "free" health care they provide. Now of course this hospital makes a lot of money, so not all of that 9x difference goes to cover the services provided to uninsured, but I would bet a large portion of it does. Oh, the insurance companies only pay a small percentage of that cost (maybe 30%). The hospital basically writes off the rest. If you are uninsured and paying cash, you are MUCH better off searching out a private practice as they will be cheaper, plus they will many times work with you if you are paying them directly and not through an insurance company. That I know for a fact.

andy b.

dp
11-20-2009, 10:07 PM
Even our swine flue treatment is free.............................:cool:

.

I'm going to need a definition of what free means over there. Over here it means you don't pay for it. Like finding a prostitute who's giving it away. It must be true - we're two nations separated by a common language. ;)

oldtiffie
11-20-2009, 10:09 PM
John,

you are not only $hit-stirring - and doing a very fine job of keeping it stirred (up?) too.

Are you pulling this chain:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Crapper%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crapper
(he was a Yorkshire-man too I notice).

or just the Yank's - and Cannucks(??) - chains - again?

Once you get 'em going its pretty well not only perpetual "motion" (sorry -not) but accelerating as well.

Can you give "things" a bit more of a "push-along" (not sorry there either) - sort of enema perhaps? - and give the Swine Flu' another go as well as bringing in 2012, and $4/gallon gas et al too.

Get enough of 'em "going" and given that "Privy" also includes "out-house" you could (would?) have a real Privy Council.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outhouse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_council

It seems that Thomas was not the last of the crappers after all - by a long shot.

Stop your griping and just take your "medicine".

oldtiffie
11-20-2009, 10:21 PM
I was at a few of the local health care townhall meetings (they were all very civil in my area). There was a doctor at one who has a private practice, not affiliated with a local hospital. Yeah, I realize he has some self interest in all of this. Anyway, he said he charges $900 for a MRI. The local hospital charges $9000! He was at some conference and one of the hospital administrators was there and the doc was just hanging out with the admin and asked why they charge 10x what he charges and they said they need to make up the difference for all the "free" health care they provide. Now of course this hospital makes a lot of money, so not all of that 9x difference goes to cover the services provided to uninsured, but I would bet a large portion of it does. Oh, the insurance companies only pay a small percentage of that cost (maybe 30%). The hospital basically writes off the rest. If you are uninsured and paying cash, you are MUCH better off searching out a private practice as they will be cheaper, plus they will many times work with you if you are paying them directly and not through an insurance company. That I know for a fact.

andy b.

Jeezuz B. K.

I had an MRI (brand new machine in a brand new private hospital) recently that was NOT covered by "Insurance" or "Government" and I paid the lot as an "out of pocket" expense - a whole AUD260 x 0.9 ~ USD235.

I was very happy with it and would have gladly paid 10X the cost.

Of course, if you don't like the cost -don't take the "treatment" - easy - no?

dp
11-20-2009, 10:25 PM
J
I had an MRI (brand new machine in a brand new private hospital) recently that was NOT covered by "Insurance" or "Government" and I paid the lot as an "out of pocket" expense - a whole AUD260 x 0.9 ~ USD235.

There's a website for everything! http://www.comparemricost.com/

oldtiffie
11-20-2009, 10:34 PM
Sure is.

Thanks Dennis.

I suspect that you lot are getting the "pump" treatment - straight into (out of?) your wallet/pocket-book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche

or?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catheter

I hope it will not come as a surprise that "everywhere" is not only not restricted to the USA - but there's a whole big wide world "out there" - really!!!.

Try this for OZ - and weep (no charge - "gnashing of teeth" tyreatment is expensive though).

http://injuryupdate.com.au/forum/archive/index.php/t-450.html

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mri+scan+australia&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

dp
11-20-2009, 10:41 PM
Sure is.

Thanks Dennis.

I suspect that you lot are getting the "pump" treatment - straight into (out of?) your wallet/pocket-book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche

or?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catheter

I work for a drug store - I can get anything ;)

Batteries not included, some assembly required, may put out your eye.

oldtiffie
11-20-2009, 10:49 PM
Thanks Dennis.

I was typing an edit to my previous post and didn't see this one of yours.

Perhaps you could arrange to dispense the large (and necessary frequent) doses of "Griping Water" needed here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripe_water

Bur-r-r-r-p.

Aghh-h-h-h.

Thats better - isn't it??

Perhaps its "Colic"?

Take ya pick here -and "click" on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colic

vinito
11-21-2009, 03:15 AM
Here's the US health industry approach:
Complicate it as much as possible. That makes it easier to distract the sheeps' attention.

Here's the deal.
I don't mind paying for health care myself. All I ever ask from any industry is to be charged a fair price. The medical industry here doesn't overcharge by 10X. That is just the minimum overcharge. No other industry can get away with charging $3K to $8K per hour of someone's attention (unless you're a lucky CEO). If I made a couple hundred or so per hour, I think you could consider me to be pretty well-off. And I wouldn't mind paying that for a doctor's time. Except for your local family doctor, usually you are charged $200 - $500 for about 5 or 10 minutes of their time. Outrageous! I also wouldn't mind paying maybe double for medicines if I was in a hospital compared to that from the local pharmacy. But they are so used to dreaming up prices by moving decimal points and getting away with it that there is no chance of stopping it now.
Lets start at the bottom:
How many multiples is it when they charge $20 for an aspirin? And why is it OK with anyone that they do this? Why was that ever OK? We can go up from here, and there will be some moron, or someone who things everybody else is a moron, who will defend and try to rationalize the practice. But I'm sorry - all they are doing is taking extreme advantage of people in their most unfortunate circumstance, plain and simple. We can work our way up the ladder to MRIs or whatever (by the way, the MRI equipment is paid off within a week or two at the prices they charge, so I don't want to hear any drivel about the cost of fine USA high technology medical widgets). It's rape, whatever term they decide to call it.
There's fat money to be made in medicine, and the vultures have been swarming there for so long that the circus we see now is the result.

Unless it can be converted to something reasonable (yea, right - never happen), then it will continue to cripple this country. I for one intend to emigrate when my circumstances allow. There is no fixing this. Well there is, but it will never happen. This recent political talk of fixing health insurance is an intentional short-sighted stab at a single facet of a multi-faceted disaster, and they can't even get that right. Oh sure, they will make it mandatory, but nothing else will change much. Great. Thanks a lot.
So now for the privilege of being alive, every citizen in this country now has to pay up and receive crap in return. Nothing else has ever been this way. Auto insurance is mandatory but you can choose not to drive or own a car if you want to. Homeowner's insurance is mandatory only if you have a loan on the house. Etc.

But now, (and this is important so pay attention!) for the first time in US history, you have a bill you have to pay just because you are breathing. There is no choice in the matter. And how much is the deductible? And co-pays? And prescription coverage? And what is denied or not? No answers? No surprise.
Like I said, I don't mind paying for a service, but I certainly do have a problem being forced with the threat of legal or financial consequences, to pay exhorbitant extortion fees for something when I get crap in return. I say if it is mandatory to pay for insurance, then I should have zero deductible at least, and very small co-pays for small incidents and zero co-pay for a serious condition. I could deal with that too. At the bare minimum, if I am forced to pay health insurance, I demand that zero dollars go to profit and executive pay of any kind.

What we pay and what we get (off the top of my head):
Rung 1) Pay insurance. 20-30% is overhead, which is salaries, bonuses and profit - the purpose and reason the industry exists. For this fee, they cover up to 1-million dollars of medical expenses, but only after I pay the first $3-5K out of my own pocket, per year, and as long as I also pay another 20% of expenses up to another $5K out of my pocket, and as long as the services my doctors perform aren't denied. Oh yea, thanks for that. To get your money's worth, you begin to hope for a serious medical condition. Otherwise you're pretty much paying for most of your health care out of pocket anyways. So what good is the insurance? Oh yea - they are currently the force who rations your health care for you. Thanks for that too.
Rung 2) Pay the hospitals. 20-30% is additional overhead, so AFTER Insurance Inc. scrapes at least 20% off the top, the remainder goes to hospitals who scrape at least another 20% off the top. Then finally some of the money goes to pay for what they do to/for you. This may or may not be paid for by Insurance Inc. but you won't know which until later.
Rung 3) Pay lawyer to try to convince Insurance Inc. to pay what they denied to pay Hospital Inc. for what they did to/for you.
Of course before Rung #3 you are likely already broke from missing work and probably losing your insurance and/or job from Rung #2 after already being wrung out by Rung #1. Of course you have the nice option of paying for COBRA to get the same coverage for twice the price. Real nice. Once you have lost your coverage, Insurance Inc. has that to help them deny the whole claim as well. If you don't lose your job and survive the medical services, you still get to pay for around $10K out of your own pocket if everything goes better than normal, so you have that going for you too.

It basically ALL comes down to what they charge, and charges are different than costs.

If people got what they paid for, we would not be having this conversation.
-Let me repeat that just because it is very important.
-This is the problem, and it is not being addressed.
If people got what they paid for, we would not be having this conversation.

Black_Moons
11-21-2009, 05:03 AM
My friend has the wonderful idea that everyone in the USA should just stage a day to drop all health insurance payments since they are not even covering your conditons anyway (See: people in search of ways to void your coverage as soon as you actualy get sick, then refusing to refund all premiumes paid up to that point even though they found the contract was 'allways void')

As such the hospitals would be required to charge reasonable amounts for most services or they would just not get paid (As nobody would be able to afford it).

Btw as far as 'not taking the treatment if you don't like the price'
Do you honestly expect them to wake you up from a coma after you crash your car to ask you if $200,000 is OK to charge you to save your life as insurance won't cover it? Or would you perfer they just let you die after running a credit check and that student loan hasent been paid back yet?

How about call your insurance agent and they can put the decision 'on review', where you can't even appeal the decision because it hasent been made yet? We'r sorry your husband/daughter/son died (All in the same car, Tragic) but someone with 0 medical training whatsoever decided it was not cost effective to save them as they likey would'nt pay enough premiums before dieing to compensate our loss'

Any time you let vital services become a business, you lose.
Would you want your roads controlled by businesses? How about your water? Get your bottled water here only $1.5 per 1L bottle! And as it stands thats the price when its fully optional and provided freely.

Best yet is the fact that the heath insurance PR/marketing people have actualy conned the public into thinking universal health care will be BAD for them.

Peter S
11-21-2009, 05:26 AM
I know our National Health service come in for some flack but I have always done alright by it.

Last couple of days I have had a swollen jaw caused by I'm guessing an abscess under a tooth, so this morning after a restless night I rang the dentist up at 9:15 for an appointment.
"yes Mr Stevenson can you come in for 11 o'clock ?"

So quarter to eleven I set off for the Dentist, it's only a 1/2 mile walk, couple of minute wait and a checkup on the old teggies and yes it's an abscess.
Get a prescription for the Chemist and pay £16.10 for the check up, about $25 [ Dental treatment isn't free unless you are exempt but it is heavily subsidised.]


Walk to the Chemist, about half a mile and get the antibiotics for 10 days, no charge as I'm over 60.

Walk back home and carry on work. All this for a monthly cost of about 10 pounds to the health service.

.


Hmmm, story I hear about Poms coming to live in NZ is that their dental work is low grade, something to do with the amount they paid for it....

chief
11-21-2009, 05:28 AM
Black moons,
You are incredibly stupid or ignorant, anyone who sights "Boston Legal" as a source of data needs professional help. BTW health insurance and health care are two totally different issues.

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 05:49 AM
I'm going to need a definition of what free means over there. Over here it means you don't pay for it. Like finding a prostitute who's giving it away. It must be true - we're two nations separated by a common language. ;)

Dennis,
OK I know we pay taxes, every one does and where that tax money goes is next to impossible to track.
Some of our vehicle tax may go towards health care ? I don't know but what happens if you don't own a vehicle ? Same for smoking.

What I mean by free is an example I can truthfully quote below.

Last year working away and got some metal in one eye, got Gert to drive me to the Eye hospital which is a dedicated part of the hospital.
Signed in with name, date of birth and postcode, signed a declaration form that I was who I was, nothing else. Waited about 15 minutes and was called in, drops in the eye, wait, and they removed the splinter and did a general check.
Was in the chair for about 30 minutes.
After that just walked out, no forms, no papers.

Stopped of at the shop on the way back and realised I had left without changing my wallet over and had no money on me at all, same for Gert, she had left her bag behind.

.

Your Old Dog
11-21-2009, 06:52 AM
................ In other words, they're paying themselves a trillion dollars/year to serve as nothing more than a middle-man between the patient and the doctor. ........................

How can you say that. If as a customer of theirs I pay $6,000 a year in premiums and the "insure" me for a $250,000 heart operation and rehab isn't that earning their money? Insurance companies have to take in more then they spend to stay solvent.

Because and not inspite of the payment received from the insurance company, we have others who are trying to get our business and that's why we have the best health care in the world. That's why most developments and medical equipment emerge from this country first. The money they make gets re-invested and because of that I think they are entitled to it. Do we really think people in this country are living "much" longer inspite of our health care?

wierdscience
11-21-2009, 08:23 AM
Okay some question s for our friends across the pond.

#1 Does your family doctor pay an average of $86,000 per year for malpractice insurance?

#2 Does your hospital have to provide by law an average of 35% of it's services free of charge to all who come and NOT get reimbersed by the government?

#3 Do lawyers directly account for 18% of your medical costs and another 9% indirectly?

To those here desperately wanting government control over 20% of our economy(that means you Robert:D.

What has any lawyer done for you the last time you were sick?

If nothing but raise your health insurance costs why do you insist on backing a bill that does NOTHING to control their salary?

And to my fellow"Americans" that illegal alien you hired last week to mow your grass.YOU need to pay for thier insurance and not pass that bill onto the rest of us.

Black_Moons
11-21-2009, 08:27 AM
chief: Maybe I am crazy, but I find satirical comidy shows to tell more of the truth then most 'real' news networks.

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 08:33 AM
What has any lawyer done for you the last time you were sick?

.

Cheered me up no end with all the lawyer jokes.

.

boslab
11-21-2009, 08:33 AM
Okay some question s for our friends across the pond.

#1 Does your family doctor pay an average of $86,000 per year for malpractice insurance?

#2 Does your hospital have to provide by law an average of 35% of it's services free of charge to all who come and NOT get reimbersed by the government?

#3 Do lawyers directly account for 18% of your medical costs and another 9% indirectly?

To those here desperately wanting government control over 20% of our economy(that means you Robert:D.

What has any lawyer done for you the last time you were sick?

If nothing but raise your health insurance costs why do you insist on backing a bill that does NOTHING to control their salary?

And to my fellow"Americans" that illegal alien you hired last week to mow your grass.YOU need to pay for thier insurance and not pass that bill onto the rest of us.
do you pay 55% tax? you soon will!

andy_b
11-21-2009, 09:12 AM
Jeezuz B. K.

I had an MRI (brand new machine in a brand new private hospital) recently that was NOT covered by "Insurance" or "Government" and I paid the lot as an "out of pocket" expense - a whole AUD260 x 0.9 ~ USD235.

I was very happy with it and would have gladly paid 10X the cost.

Of course, if you don't like the cost -don't take the "treatment" - easy - no?


As I mentioned, if you are paying cash, it pays to find a private practice and not a large hospital group. Your $235 is about what our "insurance" would pay (they rarely pay 100% of anything) so by paying cash and cutting out the insurance middleman, you got a deal, the doctor got paid what he normally would, and the insurance company got nothing. I have no problem with that arrangement. The problem is, not everyone knows to do this, and not everyone has access to private sources of treatment. If instead of "wasting $600 billion on nothing", the government would allow private clinics to be set up tax-free and work in the areas with a high number of uninsured it would alleviate a lot of the problem. Anyone who thinks replacing the insurance companies with government bureaucracy will be cheaper in the long run is sadly mistaken.

Here's a question for those of you in the UK (or OZ or any place with "free" public health care), do you consider your government corrupt and controlled by special interest groups? Be honest.

andy b.

Peter N
11-21-2009, 09:15 AM
Why not look at it as a percentage of income?

Average income tax rates in the UK (incl. national insurance) are around 21% of salary. For that you get free healthcare, limited free dental-care (unless youíre under 18 than all free), free education up to age 18, and a pension.
However, even if youíre not earning anything or paying any income tax you still get all the above.

I donít know what your personal income tax rates are over in the USA, but it would interesting to see how much you pay in income tax, then how much more you have to pay (as a percentage of salary) for the above benefits. Would it come out somewhere about the same?
Iím interested in the answer btw, not just trolling. Local state taxes and sales taxes deliberately not included in the above.

Peter

Evan
11-21-2009, 09:38 AM
http://ixian.ca/pics6/tax.jpg

The average Canadian tax burden is about 45% of income. The UK tax burden is much more than 21% of income.

http://ixian.ca/pics6/tax2.jpg

Peter N
11-21-2009, 10:08 AM
The average Canadian tax burden is about 45% of income. The UK tax burden is much more than 21% of income.

Evan, if you look again you will note that I wrote Income Tax - not Tax Burden - you may also note that I wrote Local state taxes and sales taxes deliberately not included in the above.

So the question is quite clearly about take-home pay.

Peter

ulav8r
11-21-2009, 12:00 PM
This thread is about to get as bad as the other one mentioned. Heck, even the OP was off subject with his first post.

Heath:
a low evergreen shrub of the family Ericaceae; has small bell-shaped pink or purple flowers
a tract of level wasteland; uncultivated land with sandy soil and scrubby vegetation :D

RobbieKnobbie
11-21-2009, 01:02 PM
All these people seem to be worried that the government is going to decide what care they can and cannot receive.

Apparently no one notices that we already have someone telling us what care we can and cannot receive... the difference is that right now that determination is being made by a for-profit company with a panel of economists and accountants rather than a non-profit panel of doctors.

With the "health care" companies taking 30% of every dollar right off the top I'd say a government run system like they have in the UK is a pretty big improvement. Right now the US is 16th in the world for infant mortality, and we're running pretty bad numbers for average life span. In all these catagories we're doing much worse than the European countries with socialized medicine.

The system's just not working.

I'm insured by my employer and I'm still spending about 600 a month for the portion they don't pay. The insurance is bare-bones aweful and pays less than 50% of the few health care charges I ring up. I read with jealousy Sir John's account of his recent dental visit. I've been dealing with two impacted wisdom teeth for the last three years that I just can't afford to have removed. Eventually they'll turn into a critical issue that I'll wind up getting emergency care for - at which point I may have to mortgage the house or dip into my kid's college accounts.

So tell me again how the US has the greatest health care system in the world?

wierdscience
11-21-2009, 01:23 PM
All these people seem to be worried that the government is going to decide what care they can and cannot receive.

Apparently no one notices that we already have someone telling us what care we can and cannot receive... the difference is that right now that determination is being made by a for-profit company with a panel of economists and accountants rather than a non-profit panel of doctors.

With the "health care" companies taking 30% of every dollar right off the top I'd say a government run system like they have in the UK is a pretty big improvement. Right now the US is 16th in the world for infant mortality, and we're running pretty bad numbers for average life span. In all these catagories we're doing much worse than the European countries with socialized medicine.

The system's just not working.

I'm insured by my employer and I'm still spending about 600 a month for the portion they don't pay. The insurance is bare-bones aweful and pays less than 50% of the few health care charges I ring up. I read with jealousy Sir John's account of his recent dental visit. I've been dealing with two impacted wisdom teeth for the last three years that I just can't afford to have removed. Eventually they'll turn into a critical issue that I'll wind up getting emergency care for - at which point I may have to mortgage the house or dip into my kid's college accounts.

So tell me again how the US has the greatest health care system in the world?

Medicare/medicade both deny more claims than private insurance.Add to that the VA and the BS they pull like my 72 y/o father being denied knee replacement surgery because as they put it"you just don't need it yet".Thier fix is a big bag of cheap pain killers and once he hits 80 the excuse will be that he's too old.

The private system may not be working,but the government system sure the hell isn't either.

The pisser here is that the so called "Healthcare reform" bill,contains no reform whatsoever.

Evan
11-21-2009, 01:32 PM
So the question is quite clearly about take-home pay.


No, the question is what that take home pay will buy. It is worth nothing if you don't spend it. If you do spend it then all the taxes that make up the tax burden must be counted.

Peter N
11-21-2009, 02:05 PM
No, the question is what that take home pay will buy. It is worth nothing if you don't spend it. If you do spend it then all the taxes that make up the tax burden must be counted.

That has nothing to do with the simple specific question I asked.

Peter

oldtiffie
11-21-2009, 02:33 PM
If you are all so bloody clever, why aren't you rich? In which case health-care and any other costs would not be a problem or an issue.

This is a classic John Stevenson "piss-taking" "wind-up".

The Yanks and Cannucks - and surprisingly, even a few Brits - get "sucked in" every time.

Those from the UK, OZ and NZ are pretty self-deprecating (they "take the piss" out of all and sundry - Yanks, Cannucks - and more than any others - themselves) although as most in OZ and NZ can attest, the classic "Whingeing/whining Pom" is hard to beat - but only by the Yanks.

One of the best ways to find out about the costs and short-comings of anything - and everything? - "health care" included, is to worry yourself sick about things that you can do little about - and then have to get otherwise unnecessary "Health Care".

John Stevenson (the OP -in case you forgot - about the UK Health Service -in case you forgot that too) must be laughing his cock off -again!!!!!

Onya John!!!

Evan
11-21-2009, 03:22 PM
That has nothing to do with the simple specific question I asked.


The answer you insist on having is completely meaningless for any purpose, especially for that of comparison. The value of your paycheck is determined by what it buys, not by the digits on the piece of paper. If you wish to compare the numbers on the paychecks only then we needn't bother with currency conversion either since it is entirely concerned with the buying power of a currency.

Evan
11-21-2009, 03:23 PM
This is a classic John Stevenson "piss-taking" "wind-up".


Of course it is. And, even you are taken in.

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 03:46 PM
No not a piss take, if it was I would have mentioned my Bridgeport. :rolleyes:
Or posted 17 Tiffiepedia links.


http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/recipt.jpg

Indecently the abscess is going, got to go back next week and have the back teggie out, will post later what it costs.

Peter N
11-21-2009, 03:48 PM
The answer you insist on having is completely meaningless for any purpose, especially for that of comparison.

No it isn't. Go back and read my OP again until you understand it.


The value of your paycheck is determined by what it buys, not by the digits on the piece of paper.

Of course it is - but that has no relevance whatsoever to the simple specific question I asked.


If you wish to compare the numbers on the paychecks only then we needn't bother with currency conversion either since it is entirely concerned with the buying power of a currency.

Would you care to point to the part of my post where I talked or asked about the value (in any currency) of a salary or paycheck ?

My query was about the comparable percentage of personal income that is taken in income tax, and what further percentage is needed to provide healthcare benefits.

Simple question, and nothing to do with value, buying power, or currency.

Peter

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 04:08 PM
Brilliant, I had no comment on this topic with Evan but already he's in high reverse and about to engage over drive.

Go for it Mr Williams...............................

Tiffie to keep this topic off topic we need at least three Tiffiepedia links on anything totally irrelevant.

.

S_J_H
11-21-2009, 04:17 PM
What I am really enjoying lately on this site is the comedy!

Some you guys are just frickin hilarious!
:D :D

clutch
11-21-2009, 04:30 PM
I'm I understanding this right, your tooth is abscessed? If so, why didn't periodic dental check ups catch the problem before it got to this point?

Clutch

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 04:52 PM
Same as that broken spring on the Donald, it weren't broke two months ago.

.

Evan
11-21-2009, 05:24 PM
My query was about the comparable percentage of personal income that is taken in income tax, and what further percentage is needed to provide healthcare benefits.

Simple question, and nothing to do with value, buying power, or currency.


That is only valid if income tax is the sole source of money to pay for medical care. Are you saying that is the case? If it isn't then what is the point? It seems you don't understand how the tax system works, there or here.


Brilliant, I had no comment on this topic with Evan but already he's in high reverse and about to engage over drive.


Watch out John, you are putting that hoof near your mouth again. You will have to start another junk thread to try and bury your mistakes.

oldtiffie
11-21-2009, 05:33 PM
Brilliant, I had no comment on this topic with Evan but already he's in high reverse and about to engage over drive.

Go for it Mr Williams...............................

Tiffie to keep this topic off topic we need at least three Tiffiepedia links on anything totally irrelevant.

.

Thanks for asking John.

Your wish is my command - as always:

A.
at least three Tiffiepedia links on anything totally irrelevant.

and/or:

B.
1. three Tiffiepedia links

2. three Tiffiepedia links

3. three Tiffiepedia links

QED or QEF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.

OT?

(Couldn't resist it)
QED/QEF

wierdscience
11-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Indecently the abscess is going, got to go back next week and have the back teggie out, will post later what it costs.

Are you going to spring the extra 50p for deadening or go at the John Wayne way?:D

From the side of a Dremel tool-"warning,not for use in dentistry" who says?

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 05:35 PM
What mistake Evan,
Re - read this post and point out anything I have argued about with anyone.

You are in reverse that fast you can't read backwards :D

nuR navE nuR

.

Evan
11-21-2009, 05:47 PM
You remind me of the Iraqi information minister declaring victory while surrounded by US tanks. :D


What mistake Evan,


You know very well what I am "talking" about. You are as predictable as the sunrise. Any time you embarrass yourself in a thread you start three or four new threads to bury the evidence as quickly as possible.

Peter N
11-21-2009, 05:55 PM
That is only valid if income tax is the sole source of money to pay for medical care. Are you saying that is the case? If it isn't then what is the point? It seems you don't understand how the tax system works, there or here.


This is like talking to my 13yr old....:rolleyes:

Are you too embarassed to admit you didn't understand the original post and are trying to find some complicated explanation to divert attention away from the fact?
I've never jumped on the public 'bash Evan' bandwagon before, but I can now understand some of the frustration that other posters have.

I freely admit I have no idea how the tax system works in the US & Canada, but I am fairly well acquainted with the tax system in the UK. However, I have no desire to wade through the minutiae of 1000's of pages on Treasury funding allocation sources for various government departments though, in order to provide you with a penny-by-penny account.


Peter

oldtiffie
11-21-2009, 05:58 PM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/recipt.jpg

Wow -that's good going for a head job John -and on the National Health and all too.

What's the going rate in your shop?

I must "chat" that nice lady leaning against the street-lamp pole on the street corner. I'll either get the 10% "Seniors" discount - or laughed at (more likely). But it will be interesting to see how I claim it on OZ "Medicare" - and get it.

Why not draw your tooth on your CAD system and/or make a new one (CNC) and post/email the JPEG/DXF file to Evan. If its a wisdom tooth - enclose the tooth too. You can attach a copy of this "Wikipedia link" to Evan too -after you've read it -of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Getting_of_Wisdom

And to sign off correctly:
tiffiepedia-link

oldtiffie
11-21-2009, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by John Stevenson
Indecently the abscess is going, got to go back next week and have the back teggie out, will post later what it costs.


Are you going to spring the extra 50p for deadening or go at the John Wayne way?:D

From the side of a Dremel tool-"warning,not for use in dentistry" who says?

Never mind the "Dremel" bit (sorry).

I want to see the video of the "Indecently" activities when John returns for his "appointment" next week.

John Stevenson
11-21-2009, 06:33 PM
This is like talking to my 13yr old....:rolleyes:


I've never jumped on the public 'bash Evan' bandwagon before, but I can now understand some of the frustration that other posters have.

Peter

I wonder what the common denominator is ?? :confused:

.

andy_b
11-21-2009, 06:37 PM
My query was about the comparable percentage of personal income that is taken in income tax, and what further percentage is needed to provide healthcare benefits.

Simple question, and nothing to do with value, buying power, or currency.

Peter

I'm with Evan, your question makes no sense. I pay federal income tax, state income tax, local income tax, local property tax, county property tax, state sales tax, etc. If all I paid was federal income tax and nothing else, I'd be a happy camper (well, I would still complain that half of it is wasted, but at least they would be wasting a lot less :) ). Asking what the federal tax rate is when some people don't have to pay all those other taxes is meaningless. Much of the health care is provided by state funding, so you can't just look at federal taxes and health care percentages (not in the US anyway).

andy b.

oldtiffie
11-21-2009, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Peter Neill
This is like talking to my 13yr old....

I've never jumped on the public 'bash Evan' bandwagon before, but I can now understand some of the frustration that other posters have.

Peter


I wonder what the common denominator is ?? :confused:

.

The enumerator?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enumerator

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enumerate

Or the abominator?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/abominator

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/abominate

Evan
11-21-2009, 07:34 PM
Are you too embarassed to admit you didn't understand the original post and are trying to find some complicated explanation to divert attention away from the fact?
I've never jumped on the public 'bash Evan' bandwagon before, but I can now understand some of the frustration that other posters have.


The percentage of income tax is not a measure of the tax paid. Therefore any comparison to that percentage means nothing. How hard is that to understand?

Allan Waterfall
11-23-2009, 04:33 PM
Peter,

Perhaps this will give you the answer you're looking for...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Example_of_a_tax_c omputation

Click on the FICA link as well

Allan