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aostling
11-21-2009, 07:19 PM
Yesterday I awoke in a motel in Ventura, then drove to Phoenix. I decided to have breakfast in Long Beach, the largest port facility on the west coast, and probably in the top five worldwide. From the freeways and the long-span suspension bridge I got a glimpse hundreds of immense container cranes. I will try to explore more of this place next time I cross LA.

The RMS Queen Mary (launched in 1936) is an impressive sight, turned into a Long Beach hotel now. It is gutted of its boilers and engines, so I did not take the time to take the tour. I don't think it even floats!

Here you can see the riveted hull. I suspect this might have been one of the last big ships to use rivets. Anybody know when that type of construction was abandoned?


http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/RMSQueenMary-1.jpg

hardtail
11-21-2009, 07:27 PM
I think possibly later........years ago I worked with a Dutch machinist/welder and he said they used to drop white hot rivets down the noobs coveralls for initiation in the shipyards........and the dance that ensued.......that must have been just b4 WW2........

sconisbee
11-21-2009, 07:37 PM
They were still riveting some stuff around ww2 time, theres a couple of ww2 ammo barges down the river from us, now live aboards, and they are riveted.

bob ward
11-21-2009, 07:56 PM
I'm thinking that welding was increasingly used on ships during WWII in an effort decrease construction times. Welding and riveting co existed for some time with the usual debate over which method was superior.

I recall stories that because there were a lot of unknowns in large scale welding at that stage, welded Liberty boats would sometimes break in half at launch or shortly after.

uncle pete
11-21-2009, 08:10 PM
Bob,
My father worked at a ship yard in North Vancouver B.C. dureing the war. I remember him telling me the welders were getting paid by the ammount of distance they welded per shift. He also told me he saw at numerous times welders laying brand new welding rods in the v grooved plate and laying a bead right on top of this to lessen the time required to weld these areas. As far as I know my Dad never lied to me and see no reason for him to lie about this, So this may have something to do with those ships breaking in half.

Pete

Guido
11-21-2009, 08:57 PM
We sold Sullair rotary compressors and mechanical packages for awhile, for a guy named George Sellers. Hence the name of his operation in Bakersfield---- SELLAIR.

We got the call for a temporary compressed air supply for a final sounding of the horns on the Queen, during a dedication ceremony in Long Beach. Days before the ceremony, a 40 horsepower machine was lifted up, over and into the first stack and plumbed into the horns. On command, the horns were operated for the last time, by George, who had earlier climbed inside the funnel and waited. Yeah, he had ear plugs.

G

wierdscience
11-21-2009, 09:05 PM
I have an old weldor'sa handbook that mentions all welded hulls being around in the 30's on some of the newer Great lakes ore haulers.I didn't think they went back much further than that.

I did find this via the net though-

Rivets and Welding
By the early 1900's, ship plates were still riveted together. A rivet is a short round metal connection used to fasten two or moremembers together by clinching after being heated red hot. The ship is given its shape by a series of symmetrically curved ribs or frames that run transversely and that are fastened to the keel. The skin of the vessel is mounted outside the frame. In steel vessels the skin consists of a number of metal plates riveted or welded to the frame.

At the end of WWI a push for faster construction times drove shipbuilders toward using substantially welded ship plates, but as the war stopped, the money for development dried up.

Brocklebank is one of the oldest firms in the world of merchant shipping, dating back to 1801. The firm experimented with motor ships including, for a short time, the first all-welded vessel, the small merchant coaster Fullagar (150 ft. long) of 1920. Cammell Laird, one of the most famous names in British shipbuilding during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, built the first all-welded ship, the Fullagar.

At the start of WWII, the push came on to rapidly produce ships for the merchant marine fleet to supply the war effort, and welding technology was again pushed. The rapid and massive scale-up required by the war meant that unskilled laborers and inadequate welding practice were used. This method of construction reduced the amount of steel weight by 200 tons per vessel. Modern steel ocean-going ships owe much of their strength to the welding methods which bind their parts firmly together.

murph64
11-21-2009, 09:18 PM
Bob,
My father worked at a ship yard in North Vancouver B.C. dureing the war. I remember him telling me the welders were getting paid by the ammount of distance they welded per shift. He also told me he saw at numerous times welders laying brand new welding rods in the v grooved plate and laying a bead right on top of this to lessen the time required to weld these areas. As far as I know my Dad never lied to me and see no reason for him to lie about this, So this may have something to do with those ships breaking in half.

Pete


I heard something similar about the Liberty Ships, probably on Modern Marvels. They also mentioned the ships breaking, and how the problem was fixed.


Andy

kendall
11-21-2009, 10:45 PM
I heard something similar about the Liberty Ships, probably on Modern Marvels. They also mentioned the ships breaking, and how the problem was fixed.


Andy

Have a friend (lifelong, brother from another mother type friend, a couple years younger than me, and I've 'known' him since we were a bump in our mommy's bellies) who showed me a few ways that some of the welders he worked with 'short-cutted' the processes, some were downright scary considering that the finished product -looked- absolutely perfect

I worked for a company that shortened or stretched truck frames for a while, we'd take truck frames and stretch them out 10-15 feet to mount a dump body or something on them. caught one of the 'pro's' laying in filler of scrap etc in the weld area. Gave him ****, he gave me **** saying it was perfectly fine, no loss of strength etc. Asked him if he would be comfortable with his wife and kids driving alongside of a truck welded that way. after that, his welds were the greatest that shop turned out.

Think a lot of shortcuts are taken by people with no idea of who or what will be affected by their shortcuts.


I'm not perfect, I take shortcuts. disable ABS on my off-road trucks, (can't slip a corner if the brakes aren't controlled by you) and don't really give a crap if the rear brakes work at all, >>BUT<< I have a manual trans, and know that when I am off-road, and the t-case is locked into 4x4, front brakes alone will stop the rear axle too.

ken.

Jpfalt
11-21-2009, 10:57 PM
Bare wire welding, that is welding with a bare iron rod was first introduced during WW1. The voltage was high and it was considered a dangerous operation. The shipyards also found during WW1 that laying a pine board along side the weld made the weld better quality. The first lime and fabric wrapped rods didn't show up until a few years after WW1 and was called barberpole due to the red and white fabric wound in a spiral to hold the lime in place on the rod.

The liberty ship breakage was identified as a problem with a high brittle fracture transition temperature in some of the steel plate produced. Initially the testing to determine brittle fracture properties of steel used a drop weight test where a 1000 pound weight was dropped onto a steel test coupon. Lather the testing was revised to become the charpy impact test, which is still used. One in three liberty ships made in Portland, Or broke going out over the Columbia river bar during WW2. At the time, Portland OR was launching between 1 and 3 liberty ships per day. Initially the navy thought the sinkings were a result of sabotage, but further investigation and test revealed the brittle fracture transition temperature and resulted in chemistry and processing controls on steel ship plate.

One reason rivetted hulls hung around as long as they did was that the rivetting of small plates left lots of lead and glycerine sealed lap joints that would stop cracks. The welded ships would form a crack that would keep going and eventually run all the way around the hull.

bob ward
11-22-2009, 12:05 AM
Bob,
My father worked at a ship yard in North Vancouver B.C. dureing the war. I remember him telling me the welders were getting paid by the ammount of distance they welded per shift. He also told me he saw at numerous times welders laying brand new welding rods in the v grooved plate and laying a bead right on top of this to lessen the time required to weld these areas. As far as I know my Dad never lied to me and see no reason for him to lie about this, So this may have something to do with those ships breaking in half.

Pete

Not wanting to get away from ships, but I can recall this practice coming to light on some important parts of the UK's Calder Hall nuclear power station when it was being built mid 50s. On a nuclear power station FFS!

boslab
11-22-2009, 03:02 AM
The previous posts were bang on, the advent of electric arc welding saw an end to the riveted ship, however there was a drawback, a riveted ship was like an airoplane in many respects; a collection of parts flying in formation held together with string.
A ship was a collection of steel plates heading in the same general direction held together by rivets
the new welded construction [see kaiser shipyards/liberty ships/cracks] was monolithic, all in one peice, then theres the problem of cracks [aptly named from the noise they make when propagating], once they start and reach a critical length theres enough energy in the tip to take the crack supersonic as it propagates along a stress concentration, the best way to 'stop' a crack is to drill a hole at its tip, this dissipates the energy
http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/sme/interactive_resources/tutorials/FractureMechanics/Griffith/GriffTheory1.htm
riveted hulls did this naturally with rivet holes, there wernt any on a welded hull, bang the ship cracked in two.
later on crack arrestors were fitted, deck holes were given rounded corners and the chemistry of the steel altered to remove the tendancy to brittle failure
there are yards over here that rivet still, on gantry booms where an extension is required its riveted and making crack arrestor plates for new ships
mark

Forrest Addy
11-22-2009, 03:37 AM
I'm here to tell you that riveet are damn expensive. By the time you lay out and punch holes, alighn the part, ream and fit etc, heat and rivet, then if it' to be presure tight caulk all aroud every eam and rivet, a welder has sewn together about triple the structure.

Also ever seen battle damage photos of riveted structures? The riveted joints come unzipped and fly like bullets. Rivets are cool but not in combat.

Riveted tructures are also heavier by the weight of the rivets and laps. That can amount to quite a percentage in a complex shaped assembly. If it was posible to butt weld airframe skin together you can bet the airplane maker would ure as hell to it. Rivet have teir place but snce the perfection of electric aarc welding that technology has been superceded.

The Tacoma Narrows Bridge only 30 miles away is a very handsome Art Deco structure of riveted teel plates. The designer made use of the rivets and doublers to emphasze the form and function of the dtowers both in appearance and function. If it was welded it would look simply plain. Another bridge was built right next to it and te acrhitect tried to make i compliment the old bridge but failed utterly. Poured concrete cannot ever be riveted steel.

Timleech
11-22-2009, 05:51 AM
My crust is mainly earned repairing & maintaining UK canal boats, often boats which were built for cargo in the 1890s to 1940s and kept going well beyond their design life. By the 1930s although main construction was rivetting, little bits of welding were starting to appear where it made awkward shapes a bit easier.
Vessels that I've seen from the 1940s (not neccessarily canal boats) often employed a mix of rivetting and welding, some of the plate seams might be welded while the framing was rivetted. Rivetting seems to have been kept for vertical seams longer than for horizontals. How much that was to do with the higher skills needed for vertical welding, and how much to do with not trusting the welds for the seams subjected to high hogging & sheer stresses I don't know.
I do some rivetting myself, there are cases when repairing a rivetted hull that it makes more sense, especially when fastening new plates to frames which were intended for rivets. Sometimes the customer wants it done that way for aesthetic reasons. There are a couple of small specialist yards on the UK canals which will undertake major rivetted rebuilds.
The very last freight Narrow Boats built, in 1959/60, look at first sight to be all welded but when I did some repairs on one a few years ago I found that some of the platework had actually been 'tacked' with rivets before welding!
I wonder whether actually it had been bolted rather than rivetted, then rivets fitted after the welding as a secure way to fill the bolt holes, I don't know but that seems likely.
My father was involved in the design of large power transformers, and he was looking into building them into Aluminium tanks in place of the usual steel (we're talking about 200 ton units here!). He arranged a visit to Harland & Wolff in Belfast when they were building the liner Canberra in circa 1960, because it employed a lot of welded aluminium in the superstructure & he wanted to learn more about large welded aluminium structures. He took me along for the ride (aged about 11 I suppose), my recollection is that the place was full of the sound of rivetting then, but I may be wrong. The ship was presumably mainly welded.

Tim

Your Old Dog
11-22-2009, 06:22 AM
Just a guess here but I'm thinking MagnaFlux and X-ray ability paid a large part in the full move to welding. After all, the state of welding could not be proven till it could really be examined.

Timleech
11-22-2009, 06:37 AM
Just to add, as Forrest says rivetting is time consuming compared to welding. The actual rivetting process can be quite fast if well organised, it's all the preparation which takes the time.
One of the UK specialists that I mentioned is currently doing a major replating job weher he's had a lot of the plating drawn out by CAD and laser cut, including the rivet holes. I haven't heard how well that is going, but if it works out could be a major time saver.
I generally cut holes in situ with a mag drill and Rotabroach cutter, (something the old boys didn't have available!) but I generally only do fairly small rivetting jobs.

Tim

abn
11-24-2009, 03:05 AM
They just had their second annual "Green Port Open House" (last month)...

http://www.polb.com/news/displaynews.asp?NewsID=85

Just a heads up for future planning...


snip>>>I will try to explore more of this place next time I cross LA.<<<<

aostling
11-24-2009, 05:54 AM
They just had their second annual "Green Port Open House" (last month)...
http://www.polb.com/news/displaynews.asp?NewsID=85
Just a heads up for future planning...


That was in 2006. Do you know when the next one will be?

ptjw7uk
11-24-2009, 07:00 AM
I remember seeing a docmentary in which it was stated that the rivets used in the Titanics constructed were of poor quality and that contributed to its demise.

Peter

boslab
11-24-2009, 07:29 AM
re, rivet quality, i do eleive the reasearch lab at work analysed one, as suspected, open hearth product, high phos @ .034/44, brittle < 5degrees, too small a sample for tensile test
mark

Ernest Kerr
11-24-2009, 09:06 AM
Butt welded aluminum skin is being done now with spin welding.

Peter S
11-24-2009, 04:51 PM
I have a nice book Ships For A Nation1847-1971 John Brown & Company Clydebank by Ian Johnstone.

Not only was the Queen Mary the largest moving man-made object of its time, it was the ship that helped keep John Brown afloat. This company was in the depths of the depression when the company was told it had the job in 1930 (though planning had begun several years before), to be launched in 1933. After April 1931 they would have had no more work for the shipyard, so it was a great relief to get this contract from Cunard. However, things got so bad at this time (money could not be borrowed to fund construction amongst other reasons) that work was stopped on Queen Mary in Dec 1931. Work restarted in April 1934 and the launch was in September 1934.

I have just been watching a DVD about the worlds fastest container ships, hugely powerful vessels which can travel at around 27 knots. Queen Mary could average 28.5 in average North Atlantic weather and reach more than 30 knots on trial.

Anyway, back to the original query about welding: It just so happens that Clydebank (John Brown) was one of the early users of welding, and in fact they were experimenting with welding during the time Queen Mary was being built.

Back in 1932 when work was quiet, the company investigated welding techniques and equipment, they visited Murex Ltd who built welding equipment, and visited Dorman Long and Smith's Dock to assess their use of welding. The result was the installation of transformers and welding equipment. In 1934 building of the cruiser Southampton was begun.

"A considerable amount of welding was carried out on Southampton, particularly bulkheads and decks most of which were in ten ton sections. This was a significant development in the move to welded construction in British shipyards, the majority of which did not embrace welding until after 1945."

ps. I visited the Queen Mary back around 1991, along with the Spruce Goose (then) nearby and a nice display of Duesenbergs, Cords etc beneath the Hughes aircraft. I recall the cars were draped with bikini-clad models and closer examination showed that the cars were for sale - the first exposure this young NZ lad had to US selling techniques.

motorcyclemac
11-24-2009, 05:11 PM
I think possibly later........years ago I worked with a Dutch machinist/welder and he said they used to drop white hot rivets down the noobs coveralls for initiation in the shipyards........and the dance that ensued.......that must have been just b4 WW2........

Darned if that doesn't seem like a good way to get a guy to kick your arse. Burned or not I think I would come up swinging. Just the thought gets me all inclined to whoop some a**..

Cheers
Mac.

camdigger
11-24-2009, 05:19 PM
The rivetting crews in building construction and in the ship yards were made of some pretty stern stuff.

A coal fired rivet forge tended by an experienced hand whose responsibility it was to tend the fire, judge the heat of the rivets, and toss the red/orange hot rivet to the "catcher" who caught the rivet in a padded can like a tin pitcher who then takes it out with tongs and puts it in the hole, the rivetter who runs the air hammer and the hammer guy who holds a big hammer against the head while the rivet gun does it's thing.

Not particularly impressive until you realize the whole operation takes place on scaffolding up in the iron work several floors off the ground, and the forge might be a few tens of feet away from the rivetting crew, and the rivets could be up to 1" in diameter and 3" long:eek:

aostling
11-24-2009, 06:11 PM
I visited the Queen Mary back around 1991, along with the Spruce Goose (then) nearby and a nice display of Duesenbergs, Cords etc beneath the Hughes aircraft.

Peter,

You give a fascinating account of the history of the Queen Mary, and its involvement in the transition from riveted to welded hulls. My first transatlantic crossing (in 1960) was on the SS Stavangerfjord, ten days from New York to Oslo. That ship had quadruple expansion steam engines, and a welded hull which had taken it through two world wars. So I really mourn the demise of the old liners.

I emigrated to New Zealand in 1971 on the P&O ship SS Iberia, ten days from Honolulu to Auckland. That made the world seem large, something we may have lost forever.

Your view of the Queen Mary in 1991 hopefully did not subject you to this view of the weldment added to the side of the hull, an indication that the hull is no longer afloat.


http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/drydocked.jpg

lynnl
11-24-2009, 06:37 PM
I remember seeing a docmentary in which it was stated that the rivets used in the Titanics constructed were of poor quality and that contributed to its demise.

Peter

Yeah, I saw that just last week. Or it may've been a different film.
As with most accidents, the loss of the Titanic was the result of the confluence of several things going wrong. A lot of human mistakes.

But this documentary had a forensic metallurgist discussing the findings of recent analyses. From the wreakage, they've found that both steel and cast iron (or wrought iron they called it) rivets were used. And those in the area where the plates came unzipped were iron, and were found to contain inclusions that did weaken them.

Timleech
11-24-2009, 06:43 PM
Yeah, I saw that just last week. Or it may've been a different film.
As with most accidents, the loss of the Titanic was the result of the confluence of several things going wrong. A lot of human mistakes.

But this documentary had a forensic metallurgist discussing the findings of recent analyses. From the wreakage, they've found that both steel and cast iron (or wrought iron they called it) rivets were used. And those in the area where the plates came unzipped were iron, and were found to contain inclusions that did weaken them.

Cast and wrought iron are two very different animals. Cast generally has a high carbon content, wrought a low content (usually lower than mild steel IIRC), but yes wrought often has inclusions or laminations from the way it is made.

Tim

rantbot
11-24-2009, 08:51 PM
The Tacoma Narrows Bridge only 30 miles away is a very handsome Art Deco structure of riveted teel plates. The designer made use of the rivets and doublers to emphasze the form and function of the dtowers both in appearance and function.
Sadly, the structural benefits of good Art Deco design are not widely appreciated today.

boslab
11-24-2009, 08:59 PM
i havent seen the doc so cant comment on what was stated but with respect all steels contain inclusions end of, it depends a lot on the type and concentration of them, if they are slag/refractory or other non metalic inclusion then three things about them become important, shape size and concentration.
if they are accular [pointy] you have a problem as they are stress concentration points, if theres a lot of them in a cluster [big lump of slag say] and you roll your steel your clump will micely translate to either one of two things, a linear string defect or a skin laminiation, both bad
if your inclusions are big [ in modern terms with DWI [drawn and wall ironed can stock] a 20 micron NMI will easily cause a split sometimes ruining a $10,000 presstool and causing the scrapping of a 20 ton coil of steel]
you dont want big inclusions in metals! you also dont want lots of little ones as it amounts to the same.
the plates of the Titanic, came from a mottly collection of open hearth furnaces, clean steel/iron wasnt on the agenda, furnacemen were paid by tons so getting a charge out was more important, no cast no money = no food!
Analytical controll of the process was black magic to say the least, wet chemistry was the only thing available, slow and unreliable, to do a wet carbon analysis on a furnace required a sample to be taken, smashed up, dissolved in HCl [boiling] cooled and titrated [also requiring some skill as it often has odd starting and end point colors]
the solution to dirty steel was basicly bulk, make it thicker to enclose the defects, with rivets the spacings were the result of the worst possible teacher, expirience, they had found how close to the edge of a plate you could get [and to each othor] by looking at failures [i've got some forensic metallurgy books from 1913 by Floris Osmond!, they are quite detailed]
they had an idea what was going on with metallurgy, to think they were entirely ignorant would be a mistake i feel
look at say the suspension wires of the Brooklyn bridge [apart from somme dodgy ones slipped in by unscrupilous suppliers] these were good quality, no one can say they werent they were load tested and the bridge is most definatly standing [a tribute to Mr and Mrs Roebling to which we all should be greatful]
its a shame they crashed into a dirty great lump of ice, there lies the culprit, a large mass hitting a relativly stationary larger mass, even if tthe rivets were Niobium stabalised Calcium treated low phos ultra clean iron it would have split like a tin can.
mark

abn
11-25-2009, 02:19 AM
Sorry wrong link. This year's was on Oct. 3rd...so it looks like first week in October is the trend.


That was in 2006. Do you know when the next one will be?

GKman
11-25-2009, 07:08 AM
The SS France, later refitted and renamed SS Norway launched in 1960 had a riveted hull.

http://www.maritimematters.com/norway.html

We took our first cruise on it in about 2000. I think we were on deck 14 and had a marble tub surround and about 12" channel iron guard rails on the balcony. It was absolutely unbelievable how much weight they designed in it at that height. Last I saw it was beached and being scrapped in India. Glad we got to sail on it, a wonderful experience.

aostling
11-25-2009, 01:19 PM
The SS France, later refitted and renamed SS Norway launched in 1960 had a riveted hull.


This was news to me. The SS France called at Wellington Harbour in 1973, and I snapped this photo of it before going on board for an inspection (there was no security in those days). Now I see the rivets, on the left side of the frame.

It was certainly impressive in size, being the largest liner ever built at the time. It's sad to see the photos of it on the beach, prior to being scrapped.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/SSNorway.jpg

lynnl
11-25-2009, 03:13 PM
Cast and wrought iron are two very different animals. Cast generally has a high carbon content, wrought a low content (usually lower than mild steel IIRC), but yes wrought often has inclusions or laminations from the way it is made.

Tim

Yes, I'm aware they are different. As I said, the forensic metallurgist (lady) used the term wrought iron. The film showed some microscopic views of the rivets, and discussed the significance of the inclusions. I don't recall all the details, but she did describe this as spelling doom for the ship.

As for the impact with the iceberg, the ship just made contact at a very shallow glancing angle. Very few people felt anything, or were even aware of the collision.
In fact therein lies one of the human errors. The first mate, or individual at the helm at the time (not the captain) turned the wheel hard to port just before hitting. Had he NOT done so, and let the ship hit at more of a nose first attitude it would've probably saved the ship.
The reason being, the forward chambers in the bow were higher (i.e. the bulkheads were higher, reaching all the way to the deck above) and the flooding that followed would have been contained. But by opening up the side, where it did, it permitted the flooding to spill over into other chambers that had not been opened by the collision. In other words the ship design had accounted for any major collision and damage to take place in the bow, but NOT along the side at midship.
In the reenactment, one individual, a shipping company official, told the captain, "Hey, don't worry, this ship will float with four chambers flooded." The captain grimly replied, "...we have five chambers flooding." Oooops!

Some of the other human errors revolved around the failure of the wireless operators to get some of the last, most urgent telegrams from other ships which gave the location of the iceberg, to the captain. And also one operator had gotten a little pissy with the wireless guy on the other ship which was closest, so when they tried to call for help they could not raise the one ship that could've gotten there in time.

One especially sad fact, was that many of the lifeboats were launched with less than a full load.

ckelloug
11-25-2009, 04:35 PM
I sailed on the Norway in the caribbean with my parents when I was a kid. What isn't being mentioned in this thread is that there was a disasterous boiler explosion with loss of life amongst the crew which promulgated the scrapping.

The Norway was evacuated after the explosion leaving everything aboard but the passengers' personal effects. NCL thought about refitting her but in the end, they rechristened her the "Blue Lady" with a skeleton crew for a final voyage to India to be broken. It was an interesting case because all of the furnishings that are usually removed went with her to the scrap yard. The account I read said that the grand piano was still aboard when the ship reached India to be broken.

The Norway was the last steam passenger liner on the ocean during the 1990's when the accident occurred. I still remember the smell of coal and the cinders when walking about on deck. The Norway still felt like a ship with bulkheads that you had to step over the threshold of and such. It was a beautiful ship because it was still obviously a ship in stark contrast to today's ships which are beautiful but more like floating land based hotels inside.

It's sad to be reminded of the demise of so noble a ship.

--Cameron

Peter S
11-25-2009, 08:34 PM
The Norway was the last steam passenger liner on the ocean during the 1990's when the accident occurred. --Cameron

Cameron,

You will be interested to know that there were still a few turbine steamers about after that time (Norway boiler explosion occurred in 2003), maybe still a few survive now.

ISSES keeps tabs of some of these ships, in 2000 they reported on 6 British-built steam turbine powered liners still in use as cruise ships and a further two that were laid up.

Then in 2005 they updated that list, 4 had been scrapped, 1 laid up, 1 for sale (Carinthia), 1 in service (Empress of Britain).

Other turbine steamers (not British built) still in service in 2005 included the Ausonia, Free State Mariner (Monterey) and Oceanic (1965). There was also the SS Oceanic/Independence (Bethlehem 1950) which was cruising around Hawaii until about 2001 but towed to Alang by 2009. SS Rotterdam was another fine large steam turbine passenger ship which later worked as a cruise liner until about 2000, now used as a restaurant in Rotterdam.

ISSES reports that the new (2010) Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) has not helped these old timers survive.

ckelloug
11-26-2009, 02:01 AM
Peter,

Thanks. My memory was from an article I had read some years ago and it didn't make mention of the other steam ships. They're a vanishing breed unfortunately.

--Cameron

boslab
11-26-2009, 02:43 AM
it had been proposed that RMS Titanic was also suffering a coal bunker fire to add to the mess, given what ive seen coal dust do in the past yhat is entirely conceivable [ in saying that we went to see a ship at a wharf in newport with a steel swarf fire!, they had to unload it and quench it]
the coal blending silos at the steelworks i work at pump N2 in to stop the things igniting and taking off.
a have read about an explosion of flour dust in canada which was suprising asfrom memory it levelled the silos and killed several employees, so i can imagine if a ship had an explosion it would be a problem and a half.
anyway back to rivets an slag inclusions, of course there is slag in a wrought iron rivet, i'd be puzzled if there wasent, all wrough iron has slag in it, long strings of it, its like grainy wood in structure as the rolling out process elongates the inclusions of slag, it is in its nature to look like the micrograph, actually i thought given the mag you can get with a SEM that the sample looked reasonably clean for wrought, i have samples of wrough you dont need any kind of microscope to see the slag! and its still pritty strong
mark

MrSleepy
11-26-2009, 06:11 AM
I usually tend to disbelieve conspiracy stories...

but the name switching of the severly damaged Olympic (that could not be claimed against the insurers) for the name titanic make sense and the evidence is there to be seen..

http://www.titanicconspiracy.com/

Rob

oldtiffie
11-26-2009, 06:22 AM
Don't be too romantic about steam on ships at sea - particularly Navy ships.

I had the misfortune to be on the OZ Navy destroyer "Voyager" when she "blew" her boilers.


On 3 March, the ship was assigned again to the FESR, and sailed for Singapore via South and Western Australia.[1] While still off the northern coast of Western Australia, Voyager was involved in a South East Asia Treaty Organisation (SEATO) joint naval exercise.[1] On 30 April, burst tubes in the "B" boiler damaged the ship, forcing her to limp to Hong Kong for six weeks of repairs.[1] Over 300 sections of tubing had to be replaced in both boilers, with the cause of the damage confirmed to be oil contamination of the boilers' feed water.[1] After repairs were completed on 15 June, Voyager sailed to Australia and underwent refit in Victoria.[3]

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Voyager_(D04)

First was "B" boiler at sea then we limped into Hong Kong and while alongside in the Destroyer Basin in the Dockyard (RN), they tried to simulate on "A" Boiler what happened on "B" boiler when it "blew" -and sure enough - "A" boiler "blew" as well!!!

I was on the upper/"weather" decks when it happened - both times - as it vented through the funnels. Fortunately, all the safety systems worked and no one either in the Boiler Rooms ("A" and "B" or the Engine Rooms "A" and "B") were injured nor was anyone on the upper decks or superstructure.

I was a junior Ordnance Artificer and my first thoughts were of the magazines and shell rooms below. The 5 x 21" (air-charged - 4,000 psi -but not armed with HE heads) torpedoes were between the two funnels and over "A" Boiler and "A" Engine rooms.

I can tell you that a lot of beer etc.was drunk when we got ashore.

As luck would have it, in later years, I was on "stand-by" to join "Voyager" as her Chief Ordnance Artificer (COA) but it was canceled just before it was sunk in a collision with the OZ Navy Carrier "Melbourne".

"Voyager" was our first all-welded warship - built in Sydney.

I had about 3 years on her sister-ship "Vendetta" and later 2 1/2 years on the Carrier "Melbourne" - after she was repaired after the collision with "Voyager" and before she collided with and sank the USN Destroyer "Evans".

When "Voyager" was sunk, the fuel oil damage to people was pretty bad. I lost a few friends on there. A lot of "survivors" were not in good shape - at all - either.

The RAN (OZ Navy) - like the RN (Brit Navy) converted the boilers from Furnace Fuel Oil (FFO) (like bitumen at times and stunk like hell) to diesel fuel for cost and performance efficiency.

Steam was phased out in favour of diesel propulsion and then that was phased out in favour of gas-turbine propulsion.

Some RN (Brit) destroyers had both steam and diesel operating on the same gear-boxes. It was odd to see a speedy "get-away" where they were still putting a fire under the "kettle" (Boilers) and yet clearly and well under-way under diesel.

The "Brits" (RN) "County Class" Destroyers (more like a Light Cruiser) had the first gas-turbine system for main propulsion as well as auxiliaries. They could be on their way from a cold start in minutes and under full power soon after.

Riveting was well in vogue with ship alterations and repairs in those days as it took a long time to phase out all the riveted ships. The noise was bad enough in the open air. It was worse down in the dry-dock bottom and was almost impossible if you were any where near it inside a ship. There was a lot of riveting in a mid-cycle docking as well as short-term repair and "re-fit" stays in Dock-yard.

While in the Far East Strategic Reserve we had HMS "Belfast" (RN). Belfast had a fabulous riveted repair "belt" that was pretty obvious!!



1940-1942: Repairs
Initial assessments of Belfast's damage showed that while the mine did little physical damage to the outer hull, causing only a small hole directly below one of the boiler rooms, the shock of the explosion caused a severe warping, breaking machinery, deforming the decks and causing the the keel to hog (bend upwards) by three inches. On 4 January 1940 Belfast was paid off into Care and Maintenance and her crew dispersed to other vessels. By 28 June she had been repaired sufficiently to sail to Devonport, arriving on 30 June.[9]

During her repairs, work was carried out to straighten, reconstruct and strengthen her hull. Her armoured belt was also extended and thickened. Her armament was updated with newer 2-pounder 'pom-pom' mountings, and her anti-aircraft armament improved with eighteen 20mm Oerlikon guns in five twin and eight single mountings, replacing two quadruple 0.5-inch Vickers guns. Belfast also received new fire control radars for her main, secondary and anti-aircraft guns. Her increased topweight also led to her hull being bulged amidships, to improve her stability and provide extra longitudinal strength. Belfast recommissioned at Devonport on 3 November 1942, under the command of Captain Frederick Parham.[10] Her displacement had risen to 11,550 tons, making her the largest and arguably most powerful cruiser in the Royal Navy.[11]

from (a GREAT read!!!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Belfast_(C35)

bob308
11-26-2009, 08:17 AM
i was told by a guy who worked in the shipyards during wwll that the germans started the all welded ships. to make them lighter or at least look lighter to get around treaty limits on war ships.

as for the rods laid in groves to fill them up. he also told about that said he saw a lot of alltread go in joints. and he also said he got paid by the in.