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Too_Many_Tools
11-23-2009, 12:31 PM
Thought you find this interesting.

TMT

http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/154921

1 in 3 laptops die in first three years
Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:31PM EST

So your new laptop computer died in inside of a year. "I'll never buy a computer from [insert manufacturer name here] again!" I've heard the protests time and time again.

Yeah, maybe you got a lemon, but no matter which brand you bought, you truly are not alone in this situation: An analysis of 30,000 new laptops from SquareTrade, which provides aftermarket warranty coverage for electronics products, has found that in the first three years of ownership, nearly a third of laptops (31 percent) will fail.

That's actually better than I would have expected based on my experience and observations on how people treat their equipment.

SquareTrade has more detailed information (the full PDF of the company's study is available here) on the research on its website. But here are some highlights about how, why, and which laptops fail:

> 20.4 percent of failures are due to hardware malfunctions. 10.6 percent are due to drops, spills, or other accidental damage.

> Netbooks have a roughly 20 percent higher failure rate due to hardware malfunctions than standard laptops. The more you pay for your laptop, the less likely it is to fail in general (maybe because you're more careful with it?).

> The most reliable companies? A shocker: Toshiba and Asus, both with below a 16 percent failure rate due to hardware malfunction.

> The least reliable brands? Acer, Gateway, and HP. HP's hardware malfunction rate, the worst in SquareTrade's analysis, is a whopping 25.6 percent.

None of the numbers are overly surprising. As SquareTrade notes, "the typical laptop endures more use and abuse than nearly any other consumer electronic device (with the possible exception of cell phones)," so failures are really inevitable.

Want to keep your notebook running for longer than a few years? Ensure your laptop is as drop-proofed as possible (use a padded bag or case, route cords so they won't be tripped on, lock children in another room), and protect it as best you can from heat and dust.

Evan
11-23-2009, 12:39 PM
The most reliable companies? A shocker: Toshiba and Asus, both with below a 16 percent failure rate due to hardware malfunction.

> The least reliable brands? Acer, Gateway, and HP. HP's hardware malfunction rate, the worst in SquareTrade's analysis, is a whopping 25.6 percent.


Hmm. Asus manufactures laptops for HP.

andy_b
11-23-2009, 12:53 PM
Hmm. Asus manufactures laptops for HP.


Perhaps HP specs a lower quality than Asus does in-house. Man, wouldn't that be a kicker. The Chinese/Tiawanese know what quality levels they can produce and make their in-house stuff better than the crap they subcon. As I have said many times, if I am going to buy cheap Chinese junk, I'm going for the cheapest and not the name brand.
Then again, is dear old Carly still running HP?????

andy b.

ptjw7uk
11-23-2009, 12:56 PM
Not all surprised, pack all you can in a very small space and guess what it gets HOT and what doesnt electronics like .... well HEAT.

Plus the fact that when the laptop is open the screen makes a nice handle to pick it up by.

I will stick to a nise big case PC.

Peter

aboard_epsilon
11-23-2009, 12:57 PM
well they are harder to clean the dust and fluff out..most people wouldn't ...and i suppose if you used one like my PC 24/7, it would be less than a year before failure.

i have to clean my CPU every 3-4 months ..luckily i have a probe monitoring it ......so i know exactly when it needs cleaning ..in my case when it goes over 48c.

cleaning is a simple job on a pc .....i would imagine it wouldnt be that simple with a laptop.

all the best.markj

Peter N
11-23-2009, 01:06 PM
We've got 4 laptops and 5 desktops (2 Workstations) here, all but 2 are from Dell, the others are a Macbook Pro and a Toshiba laptop.

The oldest Laptop is a Dell Precision M60 laptop workstation, bought back in early 2004 when they were *stupid* expensive. It still works very well despite having travelled to Singapore, New Zealand, and numerous trips around Europe.
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Dell to anyone.

Peter

Evan
11-23-2009, 01:26 PM
Brand names are not a good way to make a buying decision when it comes to electronics and in particular computers. Rebranding is extremely common in the business and it will vary by model #, not by product line. Unless you have specific information on a particular model of a particular manufacturer you cannot depend on the brand on the product as an indication of who made the product or what quality level it is.

Peter N
11-23-2009, 01:36 PM
Brand names are not a good way to make a buying decision when it comes to electronics and in particular computers. Rebranding is extremely common in the business and it will vary by model #, not by product line. Unless you have specific information on a particular model of a particular manufacturer you cannot depend on the brand on the product as an indication of who made the product or what quality level it is.

You can't resist it can you? :D

The Dells we have are a Dimension 8200 (bought 2000), Dimension 8400 (2)(2004), T7400 Workstation (2) (2008), Precision M60 Laptop (2004), & Precision M4300 laptop (2008).
I've had about 15 Dell machines , going back to a 'System 210' 80286 back in 1988, all have performed faultlessly.

And unless the God of Everything knows better, all were made by Dell and not re-branded.

Peter

topct
11-23-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm wondering if there is a connection?, I'm picking up fairly new (to me anyways) non working LCD monitors for for free or next to free. The oldest one was only about three years old. They were not totally dead. The screens all flashed briefly and then remained black.

I managed to open the first free one I came across and after taking the cover off the circuit boards the first thing I noticed was three caps on what I guessed as being the power supply with bulging tops. I replaced them and bingo the thing came back to life.

The next two had the same problem. The monitor I am using is a 22.5in ViewSonic. I paid $10 for it.

All of the bad caps were the same exact value and brand, yet the three monitors were all different brand names.

rantbot
11-23-2009, 02:05 PM
It don't add up. If 20.4% of failures are due to hardware malfunctions, and 10.6% are due to accidental damage, what are the other 69% of failures due to? Evil Thoughts? The Revenge of Nemesis? A "hostile work environment"?

Peter N
11-23-2009, 02:08 PM
I think 31% was the total failure rate of all laptops covered by them, which means the other 69% are/were still working.

Peter

aboard_epsilon
11-23-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm wondering if there is a connection?, I'm picking up fairly new (to me anyways) non working LCD monitors for for free or next to free. The oldest one was only about three years old. They were not totally dead. The screens all flashed briefly and then remained black.

I managed to open the first free one I came across and after taking the cover off the circuit boards the first thing I noticed was three caps on what I guessed as being the power supply with bulging tops. I replaced them and bingo the thing came back to life.

The next two had the same problem. The monitor I am using is a 22.5in ViewSonic. I paid $10 for it.

All of the bad caps were the same exact value and brand, yet the three monitors were all different brand names.

there is a whole website called badcaps.net

they say that a few years ago there was a asian company putting out many millions of these caps ...that failed in short time .

all the best.markj

rantbot
11-23-2009, 02:30 PM
An asian company was claimed to have sold a bad batch of electrolyte to several major capacitor manufacturers - so the story goes - and that caused what are by now very familiar problems, most commonly on motherboards from quite a few sources. But that was about ten years ago. It's supposed to be ancient history.

lazlo
11-23-2009, 02:31 PM
The Dells we have are a Dimension 8200 (bought 2000), Dimension 8400 (2)(2004), T7400 Workstation (2) (2008), Precision M60 Laptop (2004), & Precision M4300 laptop (2008).
I've had about 15 Dell machines , going back to a 'System 210' 80286 back in 1988, all have performed faultlessly.

What Peter said. Thinkpads were bullet-proof until Lenovo (China) bought them, and now they're a crap shoot.

But I've since switched to the Dell Latitudes (after two debacles with Lenovo ThinkPads) and the Dell's have been great. They're very solidly built. Not very elegant or thin, but there's definitely a trade-off between chic and durable.

I bought my Wife an HP laptop last year, and the clam-shell on the screen has split down the middle and is falling off the LCD :(

dp
11-23-2009, 03:53 PM
What Peter said. Thinkpads were bullet-proof until Lenovo (China) bought them, and now they're a crap shoot.

But I've since switched to the Dell Latitudes (after two debacles with Lenovo ThinkPads) and the Dell's have been great. They're very solidly built. Not very elegant or thin, but there's definitely a trade-off between chic and durable.

I bought my Wife an HP laptop last year, and the clam-shell on the screen has split down the middle and is falling off the LCD :(

I have one sitting here on my desk, unused. Installing XP turned out to be impossible and Vista second choice. After an hour of screwing around trying to get it to work I closed the lid. The result is here it sits, brand new, unused.

My MacBook Pro has been all over America in the tour pack of my Harley, several flights to Hawaii, Texas, and California, and road trips in the Jeep to eastern Washington. I've upgraded the disk to 320G, ram to 2G, and replaced the keyboard when it got a spill. The OS has been upgraded from Tiger to Snow Leopard without a hitch, the virtual machine software gives me XP and Linux. Just wish I knew when I bought it that the Core 2 Duo was about to be released! :(

Evan
11-23-2009, 04:00 PM
You can't resist it can you?

The Dells we have are a Dimension 8200 (bought 2000), Dimension 8400 (2)(2004), T7400 Workstation (2) (2008), Precision M60 Laptop (2004), & Precision M4300 laptop (2008).
I've had about 15 Dell machines , going back to a 'System 210' 80286 back in 1988, all have performed faultlessly.

And unless the God of Everything knows better, all were made by Dell and not re-branded.



Dell laptops are made by Compal, Samsung, Quanta and Wistron. In the US you can find out exactly who made it by referencing the FCC ID on the back to the FCC database.

Dell printers are often rebranded Lexmark

Dell monitors are made by everybody except Dell.

http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/help.html

lazlo
11-23-2009, 04:19 PM
MacBooks, iPhones and iPods are made in mainland China. But as we've said a million times, you get what you pay for. If you have a Western quality control guy on site bashing heads, you get a good product out of them.

If you take the lowest bidder, you get a crappy product.

Similarly, Compal is a really crappy, bottom-feeder OEM that makes budget laptops for many OEM's, including HP and Dell.

Quanta, on the other hand, makes great laptops. Quanta makes the Dell Latitude, IBM, and Sony Vaio laptops.

Even then, all laptops from Quanta are not the same: big OEM's like Dell specify every single component: chipset, motherboard, gpu, chassis, LCD panel,... So you can spec a low-end laptop from them, or a high-end laptop from them.

Peter N
11-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Dell laptops are made by Compal, Samsung, Quanta and Wistron. In the US you can find out exactly who made it by referencing the FCC ID on the back to the FCC database.


None of mine are.
All the Dell computers I have were made (built) at the Dell European Manufacturing Facility in Limerick, Ireland.

Here's the label from underneath the M60:

http://www.btinternet.com/~p.neill/M60_label.jpg

and from the M4300:

http://www.btinternet.com/~p.neill/M4300_label.jpg

You'll have to take my word about the PCs, as I'm not about to turn them upside them.

The monitors I'm well aware of, as are most people. There is an old utility out there somewhere (I have it somewhere...) that will list the exact manufacturer details so that you can check who made the monitor.
I've never bought a Dell printer in my life as I've always had HP Laserjets for the last 16 years or so, but I'm happy to take your word for it.
Then again monitors and printers are neither Laptops or PC's, but nice sidetrack :D

Peter

John Stevenson
11-23-2009, 04:44 PM
Wait for the crunch as he engages reverse..................:rolleyes:

.

Evan
11-23-2009, 04:46 PM
You can find out who really made those computers with the DmiDecode utility available here:

http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/dmidecode.htm

I imagine there was some value added in Ireland. Possibly screwing the case together.

tattoomike68
11-23-2009, 04:51 PM
After doing a bunch of video editing I found my HP was running hot. I picked it up and found the table it was sitting on was hot.

So I place it up on 3/4" blocks for better air flow.

people put laptops on rugs and beds and keep the fan from doing its job.

lazlo
11-23-2009, 05:02 PM
This is my Lattitude D830. I'm at work, so crappy iPhone picture:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/LattitudeD830.png

Evan
11-23-2009, 05:08 PM
Dell's first manufacturing centre in Ireland opened in 1990 to serve the EMEA markets. The US company currently runs three such centres in Limerick, and employs 4,000 in the city.

Major brand name PC vendors like Dell typically outsource most manufacturing to contract manufacturers in Asia, but will handle the final assembly of desktop and notebook PCs themselves.

This allows them to give end users a choice of components like CPUs, hard disk drives and memory, and reduces the losses caused by rapidly fluctuating prices of such components.



http://www.iwr.co.uk/vnunet/news/2149294/dell-cease-notebook-production

Peter N
11-23-2009, 05:10 PM
You can find out who really made those computers with the DmiDecode utility available here:

http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/dmidecode.htm

I imagine there was some value added in Ireland. Possibly screwing the case together.


Why on Earth would I want to install and run an unknown and otherwise useless (to me) piece of software just to satisfy your preposterously large Ego?
You just can't admit you're wrong sometimes can you Evan. I do feel a degree of pity for you, some of your work is incredible and speaks volumes about your manual and creative skills, but your arrogance is quite unbelievable, and I fail to understand the reason behind it.

Peter

John Stevenson
11-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Dell's first manufacturing centre in Ireland opened in 1990 to serve the EMEA markets. The US company currently runs three such centres in Limerick, and employs 4,000 in the city.


Contrary to popular opinion the Irish are a very hard working race, they invented the Navvies of the world, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navvy to save Tiffie the trouble, so they must be having a bad day if it takes 4,000 paddies to screw a case together.

dp
11-23-2009, 05:22 PM
dmidecode is included in RedHat and other Linuxes. It queries the hardware ROM to let you know as much about your discoverable hardware as the computer knows. It's safe, free, and hugely informative. Especially when you are working on hardware someone else has configured. I don't work on Windows so didn't know it is available, but I'd consider it an essential tool.

gnm109
11-23-2009, 05:22 PM
One possible reason for the short life of some laptops is, I suspect, rough handling, up to and including being dropped on concrete floors. They don't do well in such conditions.

Moving them around in all different ambient conditions will bring out the worst in the components.

oldtiffie
11-23-2009, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Evan
Dell's first manufacturing centre in Ireland opened in 1990 to serve the EMEA markets. The US company currently runs three such centres in Limerick, and employs 4,000 in the city.


Contrary to popular opinion the Irish are a very hard working race, they invented the Navvies of the world, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navvy to save Tiffie the trouble, so they must be having a bad day if it takes 4,000 paddies to screw a case together.


The Paddies are all working for Wimpey contructions in the UK:

We-Import-More-Paddies-Every-Year

Evan
11-23-2009, 06:40 PM
Why on Earth would I want to install and run an unknown and otherwise useless (to me) piece of software just to satisfy your preposterously large Ego?
You just can't admit you're wrong sometimes can you Evan. I do feel a degree of pity for you, some of your work is incredible and speaks volumes about your manual and creative skills, but your arrogance is quite unbelievable, and I fail to understand the reason behind it.


How does any of that follow from what I have posted? I spent many years in the IT business and taught the first college level computer classes at the local community college in 1981, curriculum developed by me and later approved for credit. I ran my own computer store for almost a decade and "manufactured" computers in exactly the same manner as Dell does in Ireland. It was my business to know where they are made.

You make a comment about brands and I point out that branding isn't a reliable indicator of quality. You go ballistic as if my comment was a personal attack on you. I would have made the same observation regardless of who posted a similar comment to yours.

Who has the problem here?

lazlo
11-23-2009, 06:42 PM
One possible reason for the short life of some l.aptops is, I suspect, rough handling, up to and including being dropped on concrete floors.

Dang it! After all these years, and my problem was just dropping the laptop on the floor! :p

Evan
11-23-2009, 06:43 PM
so they must be having a bad day if it takes 4,000 paddies to screw a case together.

I am under the impression they do more than one per day.

oldtiffie
11-23-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by gnm109
One possible reason for the short life of some l.aptops is, I suspect, rough handling, up to and including being dropped on concrete floors.

Dang it! After all these years, and my problem was just dropping the laptop on the floor! :p

.................. or testosterone?

................... or Viagra?

or both?

Depends on who/what is sitting in your lap.

tattoomike68
11-23-2009, 07:38 PM
I wonder how man drunken boobs opened thier lap top up and took a big ol wizz on it thinking it was a toilet?

Too_Many_Tools
11-23-2009, 08:45 PM
Brand names are not a good way to make a buying decision when it comes to electronics and in particular computers. Rebranding is extremely common in the business and it will vary by model #, not by product line. Unless you have specific information on a particular model of a particular manufacturer you cannot depend on the brand on the product as an indication of who made the product or what quality level it is.

I also recall reading that a design cycle for a laptop is 3 months.

So that tells me that the reliability of a laptop bought three months ago cannot be used as a guage of what is available today.

And during manufacture, it is common for manufacturers to swap parts...what you have in today's laptop (same brand/same model) may not be what you had last week.

In my opinion, unless you have access to the manufacturer's reliability data you cannot determine anything.

That is why this report with third party data has credibility.

And why some companies are now squirming as this comes out just before the holiday shopping season.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
11-23-2009, 08:51 PM
You can find out who really made those computers with the DmiDecode utility available here:

http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/dmidecode.htm

I imagine there was some value added in Ireland. Possibly screwing the case together.


The added value was cheap labor.

TMT

J Tiers
11-23-2009, 09:11 PM
hardware failures........ could include the failures from the lead-free solder. Some companies have a decent type that actually works pretty well. others have a brittle nasty stuff that does not. Which type is in YOUR laptop?

"Paddies" imported to UK?

oh, you probably didn't mean that was done to as something to replace the Fens...... You mean something else, dontcha?

If THAT's what you mean, I say GOOD.

Revenge for all the "Ukkies" imported to Ireland.:D

Falcon67
11-24-2009, 12:34 AM
FWIW - we are exclusively a Dell shop at work. And I'm talking hundreds. Many, many laptops. And we do not see anything anywhere NEAR a "1 in 3 die in first three years". Every laptop we've owned at home has been a Dell and that's about 5 or 6 now, all are still fine thanks. Slow, battery dead in old ones but they work. I just threw away a 10 yr old Gateway laptop, still worked fine. Just junk slow.

I call BS on that whole deal. We dang sure could not put up with a failure rate of that magnitude.

tattoomike68
11-24-2009, 01:23 AM
I have a toshiba laptop that that the kid found in a dumpster thats running windows 3.1. it still boots and runs fine, the battery is crap but we have the power cord.

LOL no CD rom and you sure wont get "call of duty" to run on that old monster

dp
11-24-2009, 01:44 AM
Got to thinking about this and now I'm wondering how many die between years 3 and 6. A third of the remaining two thirds? There is no importance to the original declaration unless there is data for this second context. What if, for example, that of the remaining two thirds, half of them die in year 4? Or 80%? For that matter, what is the rate of death in year one, two, and three? Maybe year five is the sweet spot and it's time to unload it on ebay!

Evan
11-24-2009, 02:19 AM
I call BS on that whole deal. We dang sure could not put up with a failure rate of that magnitude.

So do I. I just finished reading the actual study document. The word "die" isn't used in the study. Nor is there any definition given for the word "Failure" other than to equate it with "Malfunction". Malfunction isn't defined at all except as being an event reported to them that they deem due to hardware or abuse. Nowhere in the study is there any definition of "failure" or "malfunction" as a total failure to operate. A crack in the bezel could be interpreted as a malfunction for the purposes of the study.

The title of the article "1 in 3 laptops die in first three years" is not supported by the study in any way. At the very most the only title that is supported by the study is that "1 in 3 laptops malfunction due to a hardware or abuse issue in the first three years".

Not only is the title of the reporting BS but the study is conspicuously light on facts, especially definitions of terms.

tattoomike68
11-24-2009, 02:44 AM
So do I. I just finished reading the actual study document. The word "die" isn't used in the study. Nor is there any definition given for the word "Failure" other than to equate it with "Malfunction". Malfunction isn't defined at all except as being an event reported to them that they deem due to hardware or abuse. Nowhere in the study is there any definition of "failure" or "malfunction" as a total failure to operate. A crack in the bezel could be interpreted as a malfunction for the purposes of the study.

The title of the article "1 in 3 laptops die in first three years" is not supported by the study in any way. At the very most the only title that is supported by the study is that "1 in 3 laptops malfunction due to a hardware or abuse issue in the first three years".

Not only is the title of the reporting BS but the study is conspicuously light on facts, especially definitions of terms.

On the same note the "Made in china crap sucks" does not hold water, I looked at a bunch of my stuff that have taken my uses and abuse for years and it has "made in china" on it.

For example my old desktops keyboard has drank at least 3 beers, loaded with cig ashes, fell on the floor or hung from the cord many times. The keys are all worn blank, no letters left. AND IT STILL WORKS> Made in China.

tattoomike68
11-24-2009, 02:53 AM
On this same topic I would like to have all electronics dishwasher safe.

The old laptop getting hot,, just put it in the dishwasher.

After that old beer drinking keyboard of mine Thats what I was thinking.

Circlip
11-24-2009, 04:49 AM
And during manufacture, it is common for manufacturers to swap parts...

Wish the barstiches that made a laptop we've just had to replace due to buggered cooling fan (NO, it wasn't stood on a rug or blanket AND had the battery removed to get a better flowthrough) bearings worn square, had thought that.

Replacement fan is thirty four pictures of HRH for a seven year old Lappy. I think not.

Regards Ian.

Evan
11-24-2009, 05:17 AM
So get one of these external fans for about 7 HRH plus free shipping.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9184

Evan
11-24-2009, 05:23 AM
On this same topic I would like to have all electronics dishwasher safe.


I used to sell a laptop that could withstand having a full cup of coffee poured on the keyboard. It was also rated for thirty consecutive drops to concrete from 3 feet while operating. Milled magnesium case. Never had one come back either. Pricy though.

EVguru
11-24-2009, 05:43 AM
We have approximately 600 PCs here at work. Almost exclusively Dells for desktops, but a mix for laptops.

There is a rolling replacement program (3-4 year service life) and I get the job of wiping the hard discs so that the old machines can be offered for sale to staff. We usually end up with a lot of unsold machines and these are then donated to charity.

Very, very few laptops make it through to me. Really only the loan machines that spend most of their time in the cupboard.

Circlip
11-24-2009, 07:09 AM
Thanks for the H/U Evan, a mini Torroidal.

You on commision with D/E??????????????


Any 2 wire 5V cooler fans Paul??

Regards Ian.

Evan
11-24-2009, 07:58 AM
Here is a slightly cheaper one Ian and it shows what type of exhaust port it fits.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13218

Commission? Sure, if you mention I sent you. I have to keep my dog supplied with light up toys you know. He would really like his own laser but I suspect he would use it to try and blind the Beardog. He has never forgiven her for tearing his ear just because she could.

J Tiers
11-24-2009, 09:19 AM
On the same note the "Made in china crap sucks" does not hold water, I looked at a bunch of my stuff that have taken my uses and abuse for years and it has "made in china" on it.

For example my old desktops keyboard has drank at least 3 beers, loaded with cig ashes, fell on the floor or hung from the cord many times. The keys are all worn blank, no letters left. AND IT STILL WORKS> Made in China.

A blanket statement is that no blanket statement is very trustworthy.

In the case of 'china"........ there is nothing about china that automatically makes things made there trash.

However it is just as true that because their cost of labor is so low, many sorts of trashy items are in fact made there. items poorly made, made merely to look like better products and sell for a price not justified by the quality.

And it is true that because there is almost no rule of law in business, no patents, no trademarks,and no meaningful consumer protection laws, the field is open for cheating, thievery, counterfeits, and even poisonous health products. And those things happen/are sold/are exported. Anything to make some money.

It isn't as if that never happened here. the only reason the US has all those laws is for the benefit of society, because those things were rampant here. Prior to the laws, the field was just as open, and all the exact same sorts of things happened here in the US. About 150 years ago, and onwards into the 1930's at least.

Many, even most, of the old-line prominent US families rose to wealth through criminal or near-criminal activity, possibly involving those same sorts of 'cheating" that we see in china today.

Evan
11-24-2009, 09:55 AM
It isn't as if that never happened here. the only reason the US has all those laws is for the benefit of society, because those things were rampant here. Prior to the laws, the field was just as open, and all the exact same sorts of things happened here in the US. About 150 years ago, and onwards into the 1930's at least.



Make that until present day since it hasn't stopped yet.



Mattel fined $2.3 million over lead in toys
Government says fines against toymaker and its Fisher-Price division related to millions of recalled products in 2007.
.....

This penalty should serve notice to toy makers that CPSC is committed to the safety of children, to reducing their exposure to lead, and to the implementation of the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act," CPSC acting chairman Thomas Moore, said in a statement.

The agency said Mattel (MAT, Fortune 500) and Fisher-Price knowingly -- as defined in the Consumer Product Safety Act -- imported and sold children's toys with paints or other surface coatings that contained lead levels that violated a 30-year-old federal law.



http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/05/news/companies/cpsc/index.htm

Your Old Dog
11-24-2009, 10:28 AM
Hmm. Asus manufactures laptops for HP.

That jives with my own experiance. I presently have 2 Toshiba Satelite notebooks and just bought a dual core ASUS because two of tower machines both were built up using ASUS motherboards. No hardware problems with any of them. Lots of operator error :D

aboard_epsilon
11-24-2009, 10:30 AM
Evan ,the mattel toys were made in china . !!!

all the best.markj

Evan
11-24-2009, 10:35 AM
Sure, and Mattel specified the materials. "Knowingly"

lazlo
11-24-2009, 11:13 AM
The agency said Mattel (MAT, Fortune 500) and Fisher-Price "knowingly" -- as defined in the Consumer Product Safety Act -- imported and sold children's toys with paints or other surface coatings that contained lead levels that violated a 30-year-old federal law.


Why is "Knowingly" in quotes, and why is the definition caveated?

Here's the full text of the CPSC report. If I'm reading it correctly, Mattel and Fischer Price did not spec lead paint. The issue that CPSC had was that Mattel tested the toys in question in the Summer of 2007 and found lead in the paint.

It's a very oddly worded report, but as far as I can tell, CPSC's definition of "knowingly" is that Mattel "failed to ensure that the Mattel Products complied with the Lead Paint Ban."

https://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr09/mattel.pdf

But there's absolutely no claim by anyone that Mattel spec'ed lead paint.

Between September 2006 and August 2007, Mattel sold, manufactured for sale, offered for sale, distributed in commerce, or imported into the United States, or caused one or more of such acts, with respect to the Mattel Products, in violation of section 19(a)(1) of the CPSA, 15 U.S.C. 2068(a)(1).

Mattel committed these prohibited acts ‘‘knowingly,’’ as that term is defined in section 20(d) of the CPSA, 15 U.S.C. 2069(d).

13. Pursuant to section 20 of the CPSA, 15 U.S.C. 2069, Mattel is subject to civil penalties for the aforementioned violations.

In any event, lead is just a hoax, like the Chinese infants that their government says died from formula spiked with melamine to pass quality control tests, sulfur dioxide in unwashed gypsum board. The Communist Chinese are just nice people trying to help us ;)

Evan
11-24-2009, 11:33 AM
In any event, lead is just a hoax, like the Chinese infants that their government says died from formula spiked with melamine to pass quality control tests, sulfur dioxide in unwashed gypsum board. The Communist Chinese are just nice people trying to help us .

Mattel knew there was lead in the paint and continued to sell the items.

"Knowingly" means exactly what it sounds like it means.




Mattel, and many of the outside analysts, say the key is command and control. Unlike many other companies, Mattel, which makes about 65 percent of its toys here, actually owns the plants that produce its most popular
wares. About 50 percent of Mattel's toy revenue comes from core products made in these company-run plants, a high proportion in the industry and a more costly method than using the lowest-bidding local manufacturer.
Its workers check toys for safety on site and in facilities like the one here in Shenzhen. An independent auditor inspects factories and posts reports on the Internet.
The company demands that the outside manufacturers it does use comply with its safety guidelines. And when supplies or raw materials arrive at one of its five Chinese factories, they are analyzed and tested. .


http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/digital/Pres****s/NYTElmo.pdf

gnm109
11-24-2009, 11:36 AM
<snip> The Communist Chinese are just nice people trying to help us ;)

I certainly agree. I like the Chinese people very much, especially the women. :)

lazlo
11-24-2009, 11:53 AM
"Knowingly" means exactly what it sounds like it means.

If it meant the common definition of knowingly, it wouldn't be in quotes, and caveated by weasel words each time:

‘‘knowingly,’’ as that term is defined in section 20(d) of the CPSA, 15 U.S.C. 2069(d).

The key point being that Mattel didn't spec lead paint, they just were reluctant to recall $10 million worth of toys once they found out they were painted with lead.

Evan
11-24-2009, 01:23 PM
The key point being that Mattel didn't spec lead paint, they just were reluctant to recall $10 million worth of toys once they found out they were painted with lead.

So when will you stop living in denial and start admitting that US corporations are the authors of their own demise? How do you know they didn't specify lead paint? They own the factory and the quality control department is staffed by their employees. Those same employees were responsible for ordering supplies to produce the toys. Look on Alibaba for paint and you will find plenty of lead paint available and there is no secret made of that fact.

In fact, Mattel took the highly unusual step of sending an executive vice president to China to make a public apology to the Chinese people at large. I guess they were offended at being blamed for Mattel's own mistakes.

lazlo
11-24-2009, 01:40 PM
So when will you stop living in denial and start admitting that US corporations are the authors of their own demise? How do you know they didn't specify lead paint? They own the factory and the quality control department is staffed by their employees.

I don't know that Mattel spec'd lead paint. Neither do you.


Sure, and Mattel specified the materials. "Knowingly"

No one has accused Mattel of specifying lead paint. 50% of Mattel's toys made in China are made in their factory. Non core business toys like the Sarge toy from the Cars movie that was recalled, were massed produced on the open market, and not in Mattel's factory.


In fact, Mattel took the highly unusual step of sending an executive vice president to China to make a public apology to the Chinese people at large. I guess they were offended at being blamed for Mattel's own mistakes.

The apology had nothing to do with lead paint. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/21/AR2007092100330.html) Mattel was apologizing for a recall of 17.4 million toys where magnets would fall out due to a design error. The Chinese factory was blamed for the magnets choking children, and Mattel was pointing out that the magnets weren't the factory's fault.

Evan
11-24-2009, 01:46 PM
Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding they were pointing out it was their fault alone. I don't know if they specified lead paint for sure but they were fined for knowingly selling products contaminated with lead paint. That was their fault and responsibility in full. What ever happened to the American tradition of taking responsibility for your own actions?

lazlo
11-24-2009, 01:53 PM
This article from the Wall Street Journal was from July 2007, shortly before the lead paint recalls:


Toymaking in China, Mattel’s Way (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/26/business/26toy.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1)

SHENZHEN, China, July 19 — Inside Mattel’s sprawling test lab here, scores of technicians are doing their worst: setting Chicken Dance Elmo dolls on fire, wrecking Hot Wheels cars and yanking at the limbs of Dora the Explorer. The lab workers are paid to break toys, pick apart their innards, and analyze the raw materials that go into them.

The goal is to protect young children from the serious harm that poor construction or dangerous components can bring. But it is also to protect Mattel, the world’s biggest toy maker, from what is increasingly viewed as the risk of doing business in China.

The recent wave of recalls and warnings from China has ignited worldwide concern about the safety of Chinese products, potentially mucking up a global system built, in large part, on outsourced manufacturing. As a result, companies are trying urgently to figure out how to do business here, without risking their reputation, consumer trust, or customers’ lives.

Mattel may have some of the answers. In the 1990s, critics charged the company with running sweatshops in Asia. Now, independent analysts, and even watchdog groups, say Mattel may be the best role model for how to operate prudently in China.

“Mattel realized very early that they were always going to be in the crosshairs of sensitivities about child labor and product safety, and they knew they had to really play it straight,” said M. Eric Johnson, a management professor at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth, who has visited numerous factories in China, including some of Mattel’s. “Mattel was in China before China was cool, and they learned to do business there in a good way. They understood the importance of protecting their brand, and they invested.”

Mattel, and many of the outside analysts, say the key is command and control. Unlike many other companies, Mattel, which makes about 65 percent of its toys here, actually owns the plants that produce its most popular wares. About 50 percent of Mattel’s toy revenue comes from core products made in these company-run plants, a high proportion in the industry — and a more costly method than using the lowest-bidding local manufacturer.

The company demands that the outside manufacturers it does use comply with its safety guidelines. And when supplies or raw materials arrive at one of its five Chinese factories, they are analyzed and tested.

“We are not perfect; we have holes,” said Jim Walter, a senior vice president at Mattel. “But we’re doing more than anyone else.”

On a tour of the plant, Mattel officials showed off a 330,000-square-foot factory that operates 20 hours a day, six days a week during peak time. About 3,000 workers busily created molds, painted, assembled parts and boxed up millions of Hot Wheels and plastic toy sets.

The staff is mostly young and female, migrant workers who typically leave home for three- or four-year stints in factories after high school. Many of them say they work 10 hours a day, six days a week, for about $175 a month, typical for this region.

Elisha Chan, the director of product integrity and corporate responsibility, is charged with guarding against dangerous defects like lead-based paint. Suppliers are closely monitored, he says, and sending in fake or tainted supplies is a ticket to losing the contract with Mattel. And some vendors have, says Mr. Chan.

Mattel says that it can control the quality of its toys better because it owns factories like this one. Before the company approves any of its new toys — some 5,000 each year — it produces small batches.

Once full-scale production begins, toys are pulled off the line periodically and supplies are tested as they come in the door.

That may sound elementary. But many Western companies operating in China do not test their raw materials, even though suppliers are known for substituting cheaper material to pad their profit.

“This is very common,” said Dane Chamorro, regional director of Control Risks, a global consulting company. “The samples you get are always fantastic; but once they rope you in they can cut back. And a lot of Chinese companies will do anything to cut costs.”

Evan
11-24-2009, 02:09 PM
Which is a very thorough indictment of Mattel management and made it impossible for them to deny responsibility.

rantbot
11-24-2009, 03:35 PM
“The samples you get are always fantastic; but once they rope you in they can cut back. And a lot of Chinese companies will do anything to cut costs.”
This is true anywhere; it's not some new problem unique to China. If it is assumed that it's a Chinese problem, then Mattel's solution - putting inspection and QC in China - can't work very well.

It's Mattel's obligation to do whatever it takes to ensure that the products it sells are legal and safe.

Teenage_Machinist
11-24-2009, 07:11 PM
My laptop is... Let me see... about 5 years old and going strong.

Tobias-B
11-24-2009, 11:18 PM
Well, considering it's obsolete in about the same amount of time...

t

terry_g
11-25-2009, 05:57 PM
My Toshiba laptop is about Five and a half years old. I bought a two year extension on the warranty at the time of purchase. When it was just over a year old it died and I believe that they replaced the motherboard. When it was almost three years old intermittently when you hit the R key or the 4 key it was like the key stuck so they replaced the keyboard. That did not solve the problem, the keyboard controller had failed so then they replaced the mother board again resolving the problem.
The temperature sensor on the new motherboard was defective so it would overheat and shut down. The warranty had expired by the time we got it back after the last repair and they would not cover it. I took it apart myself and I connected the fan motor to the USB port through some resistors so the fan would run at 25% speed problem solved.
I bought a new Dell last year and have had no problems with it at all. I still take the old Toshiba with me when I go out of town for work.

Before we brought the Dell home we picked out an Asus good price on sale and better warranty. got it home and it had about fifty bright green pixels on the display. Returned it for another and it only had about twenty bright green pixels returned it for a third it only had two bright green pixels and some of the software was missing. Returned it in exchange for the Dell.
I would consider buying a Toshiba again I guess every company makes a few lemons.

Terry

aboard_epsilon
11-25-2009, 06:02 PM
I've got an old Toshiba Satellite Pro 480CDT with 98 on it ..still works fine .

all the best.markj

J Tiers
11-25-2009, 10:05 PM
OLD computers will work better than new ones..... for longer, because they are less 'engineered for failure". Start with a generation of bad lead-free solder, which AFAIK is slowly being corrected with better types none as good in general use as old fashioned lead solder, but not so bad.....

As far as chinese products, most of you folks arguing have NO CLUE what you are even talking about. You have never seen a product which was a good one made here, go to china, nor seen the results. You have never been in a chinese factory, nor talked to chinese engineers over a beer (or 20), etc..

I have.

MOST producers in china are "middle level", meaning they are pretty new, but a number of their folks have decent manufacturing experience. Not the worst, definitely not the top level.

You MUST watch EVERY detail EVERY sample. if you get one thing corrected on second sample, but another remains, you MUST look for that first one again on the third sample, because it WILL appear again.

You CANNOT ever "accept with corrections" as you can here, because more things will be wrong.

The producers hire raw engineers, who make elementary mistakes, like substituting 100V capacitors for 250V when the voltage swing is 150V+. I have seen that, and seen it come back on a later sample.

I have seen producers 'fix" a PC board layout, in a way that put a dead short across the output of an audio amplifier. AND QC IN CHINA PASSED IT. There was no need for a fix, we never discovered why it happened. That caused havoc, because it didn't show up until a particular function was selected. Obviously that was never tested, despite the documented test procedure.

Yes we had people over there. they could not be everywhere at once, we had over 100 SKUs of complex electronic products being built at various times.

I have seen it take 5 samples to get a half-decent one, which still had definite problems, but purchasing got the CEO to simply take the testing out of the hands of engineering and marketing. That 'fixed the problem" in the eyes of the execs...... "got rid of the bottleneck" and removed the "people with vested interests in having the product show problems". The market was the next testing ground, and they didn't like it either.

Was the company responsible? Sure. Was the chinese facility responsible? You bet your bippy, Ralph, they sure were, but they went scot free, no consequences, and all happy sailing as they cashed the LOCs. The US folks got the blame for 'failing to communicate".......:rolleyes:

It's a known ploy....... waste time and delay until some "suit" in the US says "buy the damn things and lets get back in business". The chinese get to keep using low-grade parts for cheap, and charging what to them is a high price.

The definition of "knowingly" referenced means that the Mattel folks didn't put forth their best effort to detect the problem and reject product. It falls into the "knew or should have known" category, and is likely NOT the result of any "executive level plot" to get product cheaper......... as one member here is apparently trying to imply.

In some cases (don't recall the exact one, maybe Mattel), the lead paint on toys has been traced to a shortage of a particular color, and sourcing of it by the chinese producer from secondary producers without any questions.

of course, since there is NO WAY to hold ANYONE in china culpable IN ANY WAY, the US company holds the bag, end of story, while the chinese fat cats collect the money.

Oh, yeah..... no stinking bunch of roundeye barbarians can actually OWN anything like a factory in china........ They can have "shares" in a chinese company that actually owns the stuff, but as far as I know that is still the end of the line.

Evan
11-25-2009, 11:37 PM
Oh, yeah..... no stinking bunch of roundeye barbarians can actually OWN anything like a factory in china........ They can have "shares" in a chinese company that actually owns the stuff, but as far as I know that is still the end of the line.

100% foreign factory ownership for export only has been allowed for decades.

I have also dealt with the Chinese on a regular basis in my computer business. You have to play hardball with them and they won't respect you unless you try to shave one more penny off your cost from them.
When you do that it tells them you are serious about the precise level of quality and performance that you are paying for and they are far less likely to try to slip in some unauthorized cost cutting. I would not hesitate to call them on anything that deviated in the slightest from what they were supposed to supply, right down to deburring of the metal frame of internally mounted interface cards. The Chinese are always willing to bargain and they expect you to try and beat them down.

I would try a new product and if it didn't perform to my expectation I would tell them that I would never buy that product from that supplier again, period. This would usually result in that product line being dropped, not just because of my sole objection but because other customers that understood how to deal with them would also do the same.

I bought white box products made in mainland China and did so via Chinese reps with offices in the Vancouver area. Vancouver is the largest point of presence of Chinese business staffed by Chinese in North America, especially for the computer parts industry.


I. Introduction

Global production is a common feature of the modern firm. Businesses as diverse as
Mattel, which makes plastic dolls, Dell, which sells personal computers, and Intel, which makes
semiconductors, operate supply chains that span multiple countries. Typically, multinational
firms produce components in one location, process components into final goods in another
location, and manage these operations from headquarters in yet another location. While trade
theory has used general-equilibrium models to examine location decisions by multinational

firms, the literature has tended to abstract away from how multinationals set firm boundaries
within global supply chains. Until recently, trade theory has not sought to explain why Intel
would use wholly-owned subsidiaries in China and Costa Rica to assemble its microchips, while
Dell and Mattel subcontract production to outside firms in many countries. Nor has it tried to
account for why Dell would control who buys what from whom along its PC supply chain, while
Mattel grants the suppliers that make its dolls latitude in finding sources for materials.

The application to China is motivated by the importance of export processing to global
trade and by the availability of detailed trade data on China. As described in section II, we
observe China’s processing exports broken down by who owns the plant and by who controls the
inputs the plant processes. Since the early 1980s, China has permitted foreign ownership of
export processing plants.

http://irps.ucsd.edu/assets/022/8792.pdf

J Tiers
11-26-2009, 12:00 AM
I am not sure that extends to actual ownership of the facility and LAND. When I say ownership of the factory, I mean literal ownership as we talk about it here, title to the land, the whole ball of wax.

It IS possible to have a substantial 'stake" in the company, and that "ownership" may actually mean over 50% of the stock being foreign owned.

And, if you suppose for an instant that our folks did not dicker and deal, that we did not call out each and every fault and undesirable condition, well then you have another think coming, and it is obvious that you have never dealt with a purchasing department. They were bulldogs.

The problem was that the SUPPLIER was not up to the task, but we were all presented with the supplier as a 'given", that deal having already been done. The supplier did OK on some other simpler and lower cost products but couldn't do the ones in question, reason unknown.

We literally went through 5 or 6 samples with repeated problems. And we were dealing with a supplier with whom we had an ongoing relationship, and nothing much to "prove".

It was pure hell, and the product never WAS right, although we had made it fine in the US with semi-skilled workers.

Evan
11-26-2009, 02:14 AM
Private land ownership is permitted in China now and they even have an income tax system pretty much modelled after the US system but more streamlined. They recognize that without a system that creates security for investors they won't have investors. They can't build a 1 billion fab all by themselves so whoever does it will need assurances that they have tenure on the land. At least as much as anybody does anywhere, which is really none if the government wants your land.

Unlike your situation I spent a lot of hours dealing with the reps personally over years, many of whom spoke very poor English and I even learned some Cantonese in the process. They spoke freely about the conditions in China even though they were possibly being recorded by management the same as most companies do. Quality can be uneven and they valued my input because I always gave clear reasons for rejecting something.

To give you some idea why I say that it is the largest Chinese presence in North America I just did a yellow pages search for Richmond, BC. That is a city that shares a border with Vancouver and is essentially an extension of China in business and culture. It has a population of 188,000 and 60% are Asian, mostly from mainland China. I searched on "computer parts" and that turned up 230 suppliers of which I would estimate 80% are Chinese. Many are direct sales both as distributors to retailers and wholesale to public. Prices are rock bottom, many provide zero service and zero warranty after 7 days.

Some accuse me of being an apologist for the Chinese. Not so. I am however accustomed to dealing with Chinese owned companies and have done so since 1998. I made a few friends among the suppliers I dealt with and I can tell you that the average Chinese has the same values and is just as honest as anybody else you will find in business. There are bad apples anywhere and China is no exception. The majority are good people just like domestic suppliers and they want to stay in business. They know that isn't going to happen if they try to rip off their customers.

There is a pervasive attitude on this forum that the Chinese are nothing but heartless mercenaries out to destroy us. What a load of crap that is. They are in business and they are as hard nosed about it as anybody you will ever deal with. If you take the time to learn who they are and get their respect they will treat you fairly. That is the biggest mistake that most Americans make. They don't bother to learn the customs that the Chinese follow when doing business. To them the majority of their North American customers are unspeakably rude and are also rank amateurs when it comes to bargaining a deal. When faced with that attitude in their perception it removes a lot of the motivation to deal fairly. They say to themselves "screw you too Jack" and proceed accordingly.

If you are going to deal with the Chinese and you want to avoid problems you must learn their culture and meet them halfway. It is a huge plus for anybody that deals with them to learn some Cantonese or Mandarin depending on which part of the country your contacts are in. They are very difficult Languages but that is nothing compared to how hard it is for them to learn English. The point is that you try and that is an instant respect gainer in dealings with the Chinese.

It also helps to avoid making bone stupid mistakes like confusing the spoken language with the written language. Nobody speaks Chinese in China but everybody writes it. The major languages are Cantonese in the south and Mandarin in the north with hundred of dialects in various regions.

lazlo
11-26-2009, 10:19 AM
It IS possible to have a substantial 'stake" in the company, and that "ownership" may actually mean over 50% of the stock being foreign owned.

From what I've read in the Economist, that's the same arrangement for the Chinese -- almost all factories are owned by the Communist government, and the "middle class" own shares in the state-owned factory.

J Tiers
11-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Any foreigner is at a disadvantage in trying to assure quality in a chinese factory. The workers are untrained, or poorly trained, there is relatively high turnover, as workers leave one area and try to get jobs in more desirable areas.

I know of a factory for a european company which lost 30% of its workers over the chinese new year. They left for "better pastures". Very difficult to maintain your quality when that sort of thing happens year after year.


Private land ownership is permitted in China now and they even have an income tax system pretty much modelled after the US system but more streamlined.

The above and prior statements are all "stabs past" the issue, missing the mark.

In the US, it is possible for foreign nationals to buy and sell land or any other goods on an equal basis with native-born citizens.

If the chinese have that system in place now, for any arbitrary location, I will agree with you.



There is a pervasive attitude on this forum that the Chinese are nothing but heartless mercenaries out to destroy us.

I don't subscribe to that. Most of the chinese I have met in china were quite nice folks.

Many in POWER hold the belief that chinese are racially superior, though

lazlo
11-26-2009, 11:17 AM
Most of the chinese I have met in china were quite nice folks.

Many in POWER hold the belief that chinese are racially superior, though

The Chinese engineers that worked for me at my previous employer thoroughly believed they were racially superior.

What's funnier, is that all the intellectuals (engineers, scientists, artists, musicians, writers, ...) were killed or driven-off to Taiwan during the "Cultural Revolution", so Chinese from Taiwan consider "mainlanders" peasants, and mainlanders consider their Taiwanese relatives arrogant intelligentsia.

In other words, the Chinese from mainland China and the Chinese from Taiwan hate each other. It makes for interesting team dynamics when you have both reporting to you...

Evan
11-26-2009, 11:37 AM
If the chinese have that system in place now, for any arbitrary location, I will agree with you.


That doesn't exist in the USA.


What's funnier, is that all the intellectuals (engineers, scientists, artists, musicians, writers, ...) were killed or driven-off to Taiwan during the "Cultural Revolution", ....

That is a purely ridiculous statement Robert. Sure, there was a pogrom. It was no more effective than Pol Pot's attempt to eradicate intellectuals by killing people that wore glasses. The smart ones took off their glasses. :rolleyes:

lazlo
11-26-2009, 12:03 PM
all the intellectuals (engineers, scientists, artists, musicians, writers, ...) were killed or driven-off to Taiwan during the "Cultural Revolution", ....

That is a purely ridiculous statement Robert. Sure, there was a pogrom. It was no more effective than Pol Pot's attempt to eradicate intellectuals by killing people that wore glasses.

You need to crack a history book Evan. The Cultural Revolution was the worst genocide in human history. Mao killed between 50 and 80 Million people.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/CulturalRevolution.png

And it wasn't as simple as taking off your glasses. Mao's Red Guard raided every university, every school, every museum and art conservatory, and sent everyone associated with higher learning off to concentration camps. Most did not survive. Those who did expatriated to Taiwan.

Ancient buildings, artifacts, antiques, books, and paintings were destroyed by Red Guards. That's also why Shar Pei's are so rare -- they were a Chinese cultural symbol and the Red Guard systematically killed them all. If it wasn't for a breeder in Hong Kong who smuggled 5 Shar Pei's to the US, they would have been completely eradicated.

By the end of the cultural revolution, the vast majority of China was illiterate. 20 years later, China's official nation-wide illiteracy rate was 40%.

Evan
11-26-2009, 12:17 PM
By the end of the cultural revolution, the vast majority of China was illiterate. 20 years later, China's official nation-wide illiteracy rate was 40%.

In other words it didn't change. Your ignorance is showing. Your characterization of China as a nation of illiterate peasants borders on racisicm Robert. The "cultural revolution" was bad but not successful in it's aims. I personally know very intelligent people from China that would take extreme exception with your statements. They aren't refugees either and many travel back to China on a regular basis to keep in touch with family and friends. Chinese students have a reputation for excellence when attending our schools at the university level and generally hold a higher than average GPA.


Mao's Red Guard raided every university, every school, every museum and art conservatory, and sent everyone associated with higher learning off to concentration camps.

You sure do like those sweeping generalizations. It really undermines your credibility.

J Tiers
11-26-2009, 12:32 PM
That doesn't exist in the USA.



How interesting.

The Turkish couple and their children down the street would disagree with you. They own their house.

The Indian (Hindu) family would also disagree, as well as the french family further down the bloc, and the Korean family who recently sold their house.

not to mention the numerous folks who own their business property in the "chinatown" a few blocks from us.

try again

Evan
11-26-2009, 12:59 PM
If the chinese have that system in place now, for any arbitrary location, I will agree with you.


YOU made a sweeping generalization too. Nobody in the US can buy land at any arbitrary location. Nor can you build a factory anywhere you want. Nor can you even just do business without a permit, usually multiple permits from multiple authorities.

J Tiers
11-26-2009, 01:08 PM
YOU made a sweeping generalization too. Nobody in the US can buy land at any arbitrary location. Nor can you build a factory anywhere you want. Nor can you even just do business without a permit, usually multiple permits from multiple authorities.


Mere nit picking and quibbling.

You know perfectly well what I mean and apparently choose to ignore it.

Your choice. See yah.

Evan
11-26-2009, 01:26 PM
Nit picking my arse.

If you want to make a point then make it with examples and make it accurately.


You know perfectly well what I mean and apparently choose to ignore it.


Actually no, I don't know what you mean since you cannot buy and sell land arbitrarily in either country. As soon as you remove the term "arbitrarily" then you must qualify your statement, which you did not.

Care to try again with some specifics?

lazlo
11-26-2009, 01:29 PM
By the end of the cultural revolution, the vast majority of China was illiterate. 20 years later, China's official nation-wide illiteracy rate was 40%.

In other words it didn't change. Your ignorance is showing.

Huh?? China's illiteracy rate was nearly 80% by Western estimates, after Mao exterminated everyone with an education. 20 years later, the official Chinese estimate of national illiteracy was 40% So after they wiped out 80 million teachers, scientists, artists, engineers and musicians, it took 20 years to teach half the population how to read.

By the way, someone PM'ed me to remind me: Mao also executed all the religious leaders. They didn't fit into his "Cultural Norm" either.


Your characterization of China as a nation of illiterate peasants borders on racisicm Robert. The "cultural revolution" was bad but not successful in it's aims.

I'm quoting official Chinese illiteracy statistics, and historical genocide figures. How is that racist?


I personally know very intelligent people from China that would take extreme exception with your statements. They aren't refugees either and many travel back to China on a regular basis to keep in touch with family and friends. Chinese students have a reputation for excellence when attending our schools at the university level and generally hold a higher than average GPA.

Of course. The Cultural Revolution was in 1969. It took 40 years for China to recover. In the semiconductor world, a large percentage (about 30%) of US engineers are Chinese, with about 2/3rds of those from mainland China. And believe me, they do not want to go back home.

Ironically, Mao killed China's educated middle class because it was a lot easier to control/manipulate ignorant peasants that educated professionals. But the ultimate irony was that Mao's excuse for exterminating 80 million of his citizens was that the Intelligentsia (Mao's communist term for a non-conforming smart person) wanted to promote capitalism, and that was an unforgivable sin.

J Tiers
11-26-2009, 01:44 PM
Actually no, I don't know what you mean

then you are pretending to be very dense and slow, which I know perfectly well you are not.

My example was clear....... foreigners can buy and sell on an equal basis with US citizens here.

w_hartung
11-26-2009, 03:01 PM
NOBODY can buy or sell LAND in China. The state owns all urban land and some non-urban land. Collectives own much of the non-urban land.

The state makes available rights to use land, with the land use system applying equally to domestic and foreign investors.

The state may GRANT land use rights upon payment of a land premium to the state to any entity or individual for a period of time, depending on purpose. This is basically fee-simple rights with a right of reversion by the state, which may be transferred with relatively few restrictions.

The state may ALLOCATE land use rights for specified public uses (usually without fee), ie military, schools, hospitals and public housing. There is no security of tenure, and the state may confiscate the land without compensation.

There is a big difference between GRANT and ALLOCATION.

Private and legal persons have the right to ownership of all property EXCEPT LAND. Private ownership includes buildings and fixtures located on land. Private persons have the right to ownership in their income and basic property such as homes, items of daily use, tools, and materials of trade, their savings and capital investment in businesses.

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2007/05/chinas_new_property_law_part_i_2.html

http://www.chinalawandpractice.com/Article/1692814/Channel/9941/Foreign-Participation-in-Chinas-Real-Estate-Market.html

Evan
11-26-2009, 03:29 PM
Explain this.

http://ixian.ca/pics6/house.jpg


The state may GRANT land use rights upon payment of a land premium to the state to any entity or individual for a period of time, depending on purpose. This is basically fee-simple rights with a right of reversion by the state, which may be transferred with relatively few restrictions.


And that differs from the exercise of the Right of Eminent Domain in the USA and Canada in exactly what way?

Eminent Domain is being exercised in the US for such things as removing title from "landowners" in order to assist private property developers just like the example in China above. It is a difference without a distinction.




Strong growth in China’s housing markets

Boosted by direct government intervention, housing sales and property prices in China rose in the first half of 2009, in a quick recovery from price falls of early 2008.

House prices in 70 major cities rose by 2% (3.2% in real terms) in August 2009 from a year earlier, the third month of house price increases, according to data from the National Bureau of Statistics of China (NBSC).

However according to other sources, demand for residential properties was already rising rapidly by March 2009. In that month housing sales were up by 36% on a year earlier, according to the Union Bank of Switzerland (UBS).

Residential property prices in China had soared in 2007, prompting fears that a property bubble was forming. The government implemented measures to deflate the bubble. Tighter housing policies included new property taxes and tighter lending conditions. After allowing foreigners to freely own properties in 2001 (2002 in Beijing), the government restricted ownership to resident foreigners who have worked, studied or lived in China for at least a year. The property can only be used for personal purposes and not for rental.

These measures led a slowdown of house price rises in the first half of 2008, and combined with the global financial crisis, caused house prices to fall in the second half of 2008.

According to the China Real Estate Index System (CRIES):



Residential property prices in Beijing slid by 2% (3.2% in real terms) in 2008.
Shanghai house prices stagnated in this period in real terms. In nominal terms, prices rose by 2%.


Tight government policies reversed
In response to the global crisis, the government largely reversed its previous tight housing policies:



The government announced a CNY4 trillion (US$585 billion) stimulus package in November 2008, with allocations for housing and infrastructure projects, manufacturing, education, and industry.
Local governments were allowed to issue CNY200 (US$27.6) billion in bonds, through the Ministry of Finance.
The property deed tax rate for first-time home buyers was reduced to 1% from 1.5% from January 2009 to December 2009, if the area of the residential property bought is less than 90 sq. m.
Stamp duty and land value-added tax was waived for individuals purchasing residential properties from January 2009 to December 2009.
If residential property is held for more than two years, the seller is exempted from the 5.5% business tax.


The residential property market responded quickly to these stimulus measures. Property prices in Shanghai increased by 19% from March 2009 to July 2009, according to China Daily. Buyers took advantage of looser lending conditions and lower interest rates. Developers were able to easily acquire loans with the lowered capital requirements.

China’s residential property prices are expected to continue rising for the rest of 2009 and 2010, according to Colliers International, an international real estate firm.

J Tiers
11-26-2009, 10:48 PM
And that differs from the exercise of the Right of Eminent Domain in the USA and Canada in exactly what way?

Eminent Domain is being exercised in the US for such things as removing title from "landowners" in order to assist private property developers just like the example in China above. It is a difference without a distinction.

Eminent domain for private purposes has been made specifically illegal in some states and quite a number of municipalities.

For public use, it is obviously active.

However, the concept of ownership, title etc is not affected by the eminent domain matter, which is implicit in any nation , state, or municipality.

It is essentially a straw man in the argument.

You know exactly what I mean, and you are quibbling around the edges avoiding the main point, which is that as far as I know, you cannot buy land in china. You may have restrictions even if you are a citizen, but according to your own quote a despised foreign barbarian is even further restricted, even for personal residence. I see that business property, in the form of rental property may NOT be owned by foreigners in china.

In the US you can own residence, rental, or business property, and a family may hold title to land for centuries. It makes no difference whether you are native born, from china or Germany, Somalia, Iran etc.

Thank you for so strongly supporting my point.

That said, the concept of Mattel (or a western computer company) "owning" the factory and so having complete control loses a bit of its force of argument.

Go have a nice meal and don't worry about it. I intend to.

bborr01
11-26-2009, 11:53 PM
Hi Guys,

I've been following this thread and enjoy the stimulating discussion. Hope you don't mind my throwing out a little food for thought. (if you're not too full from thanksgiving dinner)

I was telling a guy at work years ago that I was going to soon be paying my home off and own it free and clear. He said to me "you won't really own it, the government does. I said what are you talking about. He said, just quit paying your property taxes and see who owns it. His point was that the government grants itself taxing authority and then confiscates your property if you don't comply with their demands to pay those taxes. I can say that I have personally seen lists into the thousands of properties for sale for back taxes in the USA all over the map. Not the so called owners selling but uncle sam.

My point is that China may just have a different approach to owning land than in the USA. But in a practical sense they may not work that much different.:eek:

Brian

gmatov
11-26-2009, 11:54 PM
JTiers,

Is Missouri so different from PA in that if you do not pay your property taxes 2 years in a row, it will NOT be put up for Tax Sale?

Here, that is the rule. Property will be sold for a striking price usually less than the taxes owed. That may be 5,000 bucks on a property valued at 150 thou.

There may be States that the law is different. In this State, you OWN the property just so long as you pay your taxes.

You could say you are renting the property, could you not, and if you do not pay your "rent", you will be ousted?

Are you so different in this respect?

Cheers,

George

Sumbitch, Brian beat me by ONE minute. You are absolutely right. We own NOTHING. We RENT everything.

Whether the RICH actually do OWN all of their stuff, I do not know. I think they probably have enough lawyers to ensure that they do

J Tiers
11-27-2009, 12:23 AM
property taxes are a recent item, comparatively.

And they are NOT a "rental" fee on property, but a universal fee which goes to pay for general services, including schools in some places, and other government services elsewhere. Property ownership is simply a way of determining residence, or a 'stake" in the community, and assessing a percentage for tax purposes. Non-residents, or those who own no property there, pay no fee, as they don't use the services.

YOU may not see any distinction, but that is YOUR problem, and not anything to do with the tax.

Fail to pay the bank, or any other big debt, and see if you "own" anything....... the creditor may file to seize assets to pay your bills. In some places houses are exempt, but not necessarily everywhere. But property may be siezed, wages garnished, etc.

Evan
11-27-2009, 01:44 AM
In the final analysis all governments rule by force. All governments reserve the right to use that force when THEY deem it appropriate. You no more own your land than you can own the sky. It is your argument that is yet another strawman. Real estate is bought and sold in China in the same manner as it is here.

In Canada for instance 95 percent of the land is in title to HRH Queen Elizabeth. Much of that land is leased by property owners and is bought and sold like any other real estate. Also in Canada when you own land you only own the surface, not the mineral rights. It is entirely possible and it is common that the mineral rights of your land are owned by somebody else. They may tresspass to exercise those rights as they see fit and are only required to pay the "land owner" a small tresspass fee.

J Tiers
11-27-2009, 09:22 AM
In the final analysis all governments rule by force. All governments reserve the right to use that force when THEY deem it appropriate. You no more own your land than you can own the sky. It is your argument that is yet another strawman. Real estate is bought and sold in China in the same manner as it is here.


naturally, that was NOT the question, it is off-topic and a straw man issue in this discussion.

"Ownership" is actually not vested in any particular government, any more than it is in the individual citizen, thus the arguments in la-la philosophical land are worthless.

The plain and everyday matter of "ownership" is the question, and these fancy 'logic chopping" arguments are of no merit whatsoever in the matter.

The original issue was with foreign companies, their "ownership" of the means of production and the thus presumed degree of control they have over the circumstances, quality, etc of that production.

if a foreigner, resident or non-resident, may unrestrictedly own property of any sort in china under the same rules as any chinese citizen, then your point of ownership is made.

Your OWN quotes from other sources indicate that is definitely NOT the case. There are restrictions on the ownership of business and residential property by foreigners as opposed to the rights conferred on citizens. The extent of those restrictions is not yet clear, but it is certain that there are some, and that the ownership of at least some types of business property is not allowed to foreigners, but IS allowed to chinese citizens.

Therefore, your arguments that the computer or toy companies own their means of production, and therefore may exert more control over that production than mere outside customers of contract manufacturers seem to be losing steam rather rapidly.

Evan
11-27-2009, 09:28 AM
if a foreigner, resident or non-resident, may unrestrictedly own property of any sort in china under the same rules as any chinese citizen, then your point of ownership is made.


Then my point is made. The restrictions mentioned in my quotes only applied to residential properties.

You are the one trying to split hairs.