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bikenut
10-08-2003, 01:35 PM
Hey Folks, a question about perscription drugs. Our government is in a sweat about people buying their drugs from Canadian sources. Most of our politicians are bought by the drug manufacturers so they are trying to squash this. The biggest argument they have is that the drugs are not safe. Yes, we need Big Brother to keep us safe. I'd like to know if there is a problem with people up there dying from their perscription drugs? Does it cut into your health care when drugs are sold to Americans? Also, how hard is it to immigrate? And is there work up there for a journey machinist? Thanks all for your answers. Sorry about the OT post, but I don't know any other Canadians. Smitty

Evan
10-08-2003, 01:49 PM
The drugs are safe, they are the exact same drugs sold in the US, made by the same companies. We have price and profit controls on drugs here. A prescription for Tamoxifen that sells for over $200 in the US sells for $39 here. US customers are being ripped off. It has no impact on our health care here, pretty hard for it to get any worse. The system is broke and broken.

Don't know about immigrating but the economy here is a lot better than in the US in general. Local areas here, especially the back province areas in BC are not good (mad cow, softwood lumber duties), but the major centers are going strong. If you are thinking of immigrating you must make all inquiries and arrangements from OUTSIDE of Canada.

pgmrdan
10-08-2003, 02:48 PM
.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 03-08-2004).]

Evan
10-08-2003, 05:18 PM
No idea Dan. I hear it's pretty good in India though.

The noise about counterfeit drugs is mostly noise. There are some online scam "pharmacies" operating from Canadian servers (NOT shipping from Canada though, they would be shut down in a heartbeat) but that is not what the drug companies care about. The real threat to them are the completely legitimate pharmacies that are selling into the US. They are selling the products that they buy from those very same companies at far lower prices.

Jim Hubbell
10-08-2003, 06:24 PM
I live just So. of BC Canada and buy my prescription drugs in Creston. No problem.

I believe the reason the drug prices are so high at this time is so when the US Gov. starts paying for them,at the prevailing rates, we will have a harder time proving "rip off." The taxpayers still get it in the shorts!

chkz
10-08-2003, 08:44 PM
Hey Smitty.....I tend to agree with some of the other postings....Americans, in general are being royally ripped off by the drug co's. Our medical system up here is gradually (or not so gradually) being screwed up but its still pretty good. Don't think you've got any worries about "lousy drugs"...they're exactly the same. In fact I'd be curious to know what percentage Pfizer & the rest of 'em export to the U.S. from here.
As far as immigration & work for machinists....I'm a journeyman Millwright by trade and if you're in/around Toronto/windsor there's LOADS of work...not sure what the wages are like, or what its like in other parts of the country but I gotta assume its a "decent amount".

Take care!
Chris

Rich Carlstedt
10-08-2003, 08:52 PM
Yes, you have two issues.
The website sellers may not have the best intentions when they ship counterfit drugs, but the Canadian Pharmacies have good stuff.
As far as who is right ? well we can all point fingers, but you should get informed instead of just throwing out accusations.

Reminds me of loosing all our manufacturing here...how short some people memories are in remembering that they wanted all the foundries shut down due to air/water polution and the need for home locations
(remember.."no acid rain" and "not in my backyard')
We have less the 10% of the foundries we had 25 years ago...and you wonder why all machine tools are made elseware...give me a break
Do you know what Liability Insurance is in this country ??

wierdscience
10-08-2003, 09:40 PM
Just what have you guys heard about the Clinton tainted blood scandal,it was covered up in the media here.

Ya the grug companies do make a sizable profit,but don't underestimate the patent violations that occur either,French companies steal patents all the time,I got a cousin who works for Squib,they had one drug that took 14 years of research to isolate the protien that produces the drug,also cost Squib $90 mill to do it,drug was on the market 1 year French company counterfits it undersells Squib on the world market and they take a beating,what does the government do?Nothing.

Rustybolt
10-08-2003, 10:04 PM
Also don't forget that the cost of having the FDA evaluate a drug costs an enormous amount of money. The drug companies pass this on to the consumer as well as the high liability insurance costs. Other countries don't have these costs and can more easily charge a better retail price.
As an aside; my next door neighbor is a large animal vet. I asked him about the quality of drugs used on animals. He said that the quality is the same as for humans.(considering the cost of a show horse I don't doubt it)

shorty
10-08-2003, 10:49 PM
I don't know about the job situation in any area but southern alberta. Not much happening here. Mines have been combined to reduce operating costs and lumber has the added tariff's......about the drugs....I don't think the prescriptions are a problem but I know I have a heck of a time finding safety glasses to fit my third eye http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

shaque
10-09-2003, 12:38 AM
Just had to add my 2 cents worth...being a senior in Ontario, I pay only $6.11 for each prescription, the rest is picked up by the Ontario government. (O.H.I.P.)
Jim http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

[This message has been edited by shaque (edited 10-08-2003).]

NAIT
10-09-2003, 11:57 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shaque:
Just had to add my 2 cents worth...being a senior in Ontario, I pay only $6.11 for each prescription, the rest is picked up by the Ontario government. (O.H.I.P.)
Jim http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif </font>

You mean of course, ...pickup up by taxpayers...

I'm headed back to Canada from New Zealand in early November. The medical care system is broke in both countries. All socialized "free" medical care systems end up the same way - broke, busted, expensive, inconvenient, restrictive. I ruptured my Achilles tendon in New Zealand. Was told I had a six week wait if I depended on public heath care, but a six day wait (for swelling to subside) and a private room with buxom nurses if I used private insurance. More or less the same in many Canadian provinces for "non-emergency" orthopedic surgery except private healthcare is outlawed.

NAIT
10-09-2003, 12:12 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chkz:
Hey Smitty.....I tend to agree with some of the other postings....Americans, in general are being royally ripped off by the drug co's.</font>

The "marginal" cost of drugs is so low that drug companies can change low prices in countries where the market has limited money to spend, yet still come out ahead. Everybody benefits. Canadian and other third world consumers get low prices. USA customers get slightly lower prices than if those third world drug sales were never made, because third world sales contribute a bit to fixed costs. It's a win-win, and its a major mistake to assume that SINCE there is a price differential there MUST be rip-off. There may be rip-offs, but not because of price differentials.

This is all elementary economics that somehow never gets understood by the public.

If drug company profits were capped, there would be less research and fewer new drugs. Not much of a victory for consumers. Canada's drug industry died in the 1960s for this exact reason - public outrage over "drug company ripoff profits". Drug companies stopped doing much research in Canada. So, Canada is now dependent on USA capitalism for new medicines. Another example of Canadian socialism surviving because of the rich and generous Uncle next door.

Much of Canada's cradle to grave welfare expansion in the 60s and 70s was built on munitions profits during the Vietnam war. Not a widely known fact, but true.

Thrud
10-09-2003, 04:53 PM
Smitty

Lies, all lies. They screw us here too - the drug companies just screw you even more in the US!

I have to buy $1400/mo of prescription drugs - they used to cost nearly $4000/mo. I also buy mine at Costco Pharmacy (great people) as they are the cheapest in the city. I know a few people that had to have special injections that were $60,000/shot and it was not covered by their drug plan or Alberta Health Care. Financially ruined them.

I wish I could have spent all that cash on tools...or BBQ & chocky milk!

NAIT
Who told you this crap? Profits are not capped for any industry in Canada.

And if Canada is a "third world country" I am sure you won't want to use Penicillin, pacemakers, heart transplants, liver transplants, or many of the hundreds of other Canadian innovations in use the world over. Most oil recovery technology is developed in Canada or the Middle east - NOT the US. Canada has the best telecom system in the world. The Canada arm made the shuttle a viable enterprise and the Space station a reality. We do have a third rate political system...

Don't be a narrow minded nincompoop - it does not become you.

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 10-09-2003).]

Evan
10-09-2003, 05:35 PM
Thrud,

Canada does have price regulation of drugs. That is a defacto profit cap.

quasi
10-09-2003, 08:02 PM
Evan, the federal government of Canada CONTRACTS the price of drugs. They gaurantee to by a specific quantity and are given a contract price. This does not seem to happen very fast with some new drugs like some for M.S. these can bankrupt people in under a year depending on what province you live in.

Evan
10-09-2003, 08:47 PM
The PMPRB of Canada does control drug prices in Canada, not through contract but by imposing price controls.


Quote from the site of the PMPRB:

"The Role of the Patented Medicine
Prices Review Board (PMPRB)

Created in 1987 as an independent quasi-judicial tribunal, the PMPRB limits the prices set by manufacturers for all patented medicines, new and existing, sold in Canada, under prescription or over the counter, to ensure they are not excessive."

http://www.pmprb-cepmb.gc.ca/CMFiles/broch-pri-e15FHG-4112003-3873.pdf

NAIT
10-09-2003, 11:42 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
NAIT
Who told you this crap? Profits are not capped for any industry in Canada.

And if Canada is a "third world country" I am sure you won't want to use Penicillin, pacemakers, heart transplants, liver transplants, or many of the hundreds of other Canadian innovations in use the world over. Most oil recovery technology is developed in Canada or the Middle east - NOT the US. Canada has the best telecom system in the world. The Canada arm made the shuttle a viable enterprise and the Space station a reality. We do have a third rate political system...

Don't be a narrow minded nincompoop - it does not become you.</font>


I see Evan has straightened you out on your narrowminded nincompoop ignorance about Canadian drug policy.

Incidentally, I'm Canadian (and a USA and British citizen), and lived in Canada for many years. I'm well aware of how the country runs. It's often been said that without the USA being next door, Canada's standard of living would be as low as New Zealand's - where I'm living right now. The social and industrial policies of Canada and New Zealand are very similar.

The "Third World" remark was tongue-in-check. Canada is really a "Second World" country. The pathetic little examples you cite - eg "the shuttle arm" - show how little Canada has contributed to industry or medicine for that matter. "The Canada arm made the shuttle a viable enterprise and the Space station a reality" - gimme a break... Penicillin was a laboratory curiousity before being developed for mass production by USA and British biochemists. Pacemakers and heart transplants are largely American developments. Canada did develop the remarkable CANDU nuclear system - but as usual botched marketing and commercial exploitation.

Speaking of telecom systems: I'll be starting work in Canada in November for a telecom equipment manufacturer in Canada. This manufacturer is a subsidiary of an American electronics giant. I'm not aware of any major advances in telecommunication technology developed by solely Canadian manufacturers.

The truth is Canada is a branch plant economy, almost entirely dependent on American know-how and investment.

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 10-09-2003).]

NAIT
10-10-2003, 12:11 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
NAIT
Who told you this crap? Profits are not capped for any industry in Canada.

And if Canada is a "third world country" I am sure you won't want to use Penicillin, pacemakers, heart transplants, liver transplants, or many of the hundreds of other Canadian innovations in use the world over. Most oil recovery technology is developed in Canada or the Middle east - NOT the US. Canada has the best telecom system in the world. The Canada arm made the shuttle a viable enterprise and the Space station a reality. We do have a third rate political system...

Don't be a narrow minded nincompoop - it does not become you.

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 10-09-2003).]</font>


I see Evan has straightened you out on your narrowminded nincompoop ignorance about Canadian drug policy.

Incidentally, I'm Canadian (and a USA and British citizen), and lived in Canada for many years. I'm well aware of how the country runs. It's often been said that without the USA being next door, Canada's standard of living would be as low as New Zealand's - where I'm living right now. The social and industrial policies of Canada and New Zealand are very similar.

The "Third World" remark was tongue-in-check. Canada is really a "Second World" country. The pathetic little examples you cite - "the shuttle arm" - show how little Canada has contributed to industry or medicine for that matter. "The Canada arm made the shuttle a viable enterprise and the Space station a reality" - gimme a break... Penicillin was a laboratory curiousity before being developed for mass production by USA and British biochemists. Pacemakers and heart transplants are largely American developments. Canada did develop the remarkable CANDU nuclear system - but as usual botched marketing and commercial exploitation.

Speaking of telecom systems: I'll be starting work in Canada in November for a telecom equipment manufacturer in Canada. This manufacturer is a subsidiary of an American electronics giant. I'm not aware of any major advances in telecommunication technology developed by solely Canadian manufacturers.

The truth is Canada is a branch plant economy, almost entirely dependent on American know-how and investment.

1erful
10-10-2003, 12:13 AM
I was reading an article about how the E.U. was discussing the removal of price controls on drugs to encourage an increase in domestic drug research. I wish I could remember where I read it. I fear that when my lovely wife retires in 3.5 years we won't be able to afford all of the medications and Dr.'s care that I require as I have diabetes and heart problems along with other minor health problems. I told her to shoot me to put me out of her misery but she says that she wouldn't have anyone to pick on then. ;-)
WALT

Evan
10-10-2003, 12:47 AM
Nait, et al,

I am not attempting to "straighten anyone out" but am simply presenting the facts. I don't wish to be included in any flames here. Please do not assume I support any position given here unless I say so.

Thrud
10-10-2003, 01:24 AM
Evan:
Ok, now prove to me they pay their fair share of taxes, and while you are at it explain to me why the drug companies are nearly impossible to sue (unlike US companies) and why Mulroney shot down the Generic drug makers (telling me that the bastard's law firm deals in drug law is NOT an answer).

NAIT
So, I am a nincompoop too. Sorry, I was just pissed about the third world comment.

Canada has never done **** for the US. Like handing over all the Avro Arrow plans to them, or the Uranium for the first two nuclear bombs, or dumping our perfectly good FN-FAL's for American M-16's, or buying those flying turd Bomark missles, or sending our empty beer bottles down so you could refill them with water and call it "budweiser", or letting them do chemical/biological tests here in Alberta. or selling our oil, water, lumber, and gas for far less than I can get it for, or bringing the joy of Hockey and basketball to kids everywhere, Backbacon, thousands of actors, comedians, writers, scientists, engineers, Marconi, The telephone, the pacemaker (developed in Edmonton, thank you), advanced fibre optic technology, testing of cruse missles over Canada (Alberta), advanced telecomunnications, Steerable drill heads (directional drilling), laser research, crop research.

AND we have the number two and three strip clubs in all of North America - right here in Edmonton. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

BTW, "eg" means nothing when citing an example - the correct term is "i.e." or "id est" which means "that is". http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

The only ones that have earned the right to call Canada "third world" or "second rate" are those of us who live here, love it, and stay here - despite the bull**** we have to put up from our third rate retards in government.

Evan
10-10-2003, 01:34 AM
Thrud,

Obviously a rhetorical statement/question. No can do.

Oh yeah, eg.=ergo=therefor

Say Thrud, ever been to the French Maid in Calgary??? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-10-2003).]

zim
10-10-2003, 03:14 AM
Guys - back to talking about chips please. Got one foot in both camps (I'm American, Mom from Saskatchewan, Dad from Alberta). Hate to see the good guys, North and South, get into it.
Zim

Evan
10-10-2003, 03:21 AM
I'm with you Zim. Been lurking around here long? It is usually a machinist board but lately we seem to be getting a little off topic. Not that I don't post off topic some times. Welcome to the bowl of mixed nuts. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

zim
10-10-2003, 03:27 AM
Evan -
Beek skulking for about a year. Just don't know enough to add anything to any of you guys. But this subject line is too close to home to pass up.
Zim

NAIT
10-10-2003, 03:37 AM
&gt;Evan: Ok, now prove to me they pay their fair share of taxes&lt;

Thrud:
"Their Fair Share" of (income) taxes ought to be zero. All corporate income/profit taxes ought to be zero. I'll assume you're up on this stuff so I don't have to explain the concept to you.


&gt;Canada has...etc, etc, etc&lt;

Not a single persuasive example in your entire list. Even the pacemaker is 99% or 100% made out of components from the USA or elsewhere. The pacemaker was an obvious and trivial development - not like, say, an MRI scanner.


&gt;thousands of actors, comedians, writers, scientists, engineers&lt;

Yes, I note they all left Canada for greener pastures in the USA.


&gt;The telephone&lt;

This is the kind of enbarrassing provincial boosterism they teach Canadian kids to raise their self-esteem. The claim rests on the first "long-distance" (5mi/8km ?) call happening in Canada, near Brantford. Nothing else of any consequence in the development of the telephone was done in Canada. Yet, they keep telling Canadian kids the phone was invented in Canada. Sort of like beizbol was invented in Russia...


&gt;BTW, "eg" means nothing when citing an example - the correct term is "i.e." or "id est" which means "that is".&lt;

My construction was correct.
eg: Latin exempli gratia - for example.
"...[for example from your list] the shuttle arm..."


&gt;The only ones that have earned the right to call Canada "third world" or "second rate" are those of us who live here, love it, and stay here&lt;

Don't see how that follows, but I suppose Canadians have every right to be as mindlessly chauvinistic as any flag-waving American.

Incidentally, "Second World" doesn't mean "Second Rate" - although "Second World" stuff is/was often second rate. "Second World" refers to heavily socialized nations, especially Eastern Block nations in the Soviet era, humourously applied to Sweden, Canada, etc. Before your time I guess, or you wouldn't have made this referential error.

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 10-10-2003).]

NAIT
10-10-2003, 03:44 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 1erful:
I was reading an article about how the E.U. was discussing the removal of price controls on drugs to encourage an increase in domestic drug research.</font>

There's some research to show that drug price caps actually behave as price floors, because they reduce competition, reduce innovation, and reduce incentive to reduce costs.

Government interference in the marketplace can have strange, unintended, paradoxical effects.

Evan
10-10-2003, 03:58 AM
Sorry Nait, I can't help myself. Incorrect use of the term "parsed".

From Webster:

Definition: \Parse\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Parsed}; p. pr. & vb. n.
{Parsing}.] [L. pars a part; pars orationis a part of speech.
See {Part}, n.] (Gram.)
To resolve into its elements, as a sentence, pointing out the several parts of speech, and their relation to each other by government or agreement; to analyze and describe grammatically.

"Let him construe the letter into English, and parse it over perfectly."

--Ascham.

As a programmer, parse means to analyse the elements for meaning, not to construct the meaning from elements.





[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-10-2003).]

NAIT
10-10-2003, 04:28 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
Oh yeah, eg.=ergo=therefor </font>

Sorry Evan. eg has nothing to do with ergo.

eg = Latin: exempli gratia = for example

NAIT
10-10-2003, 04:59 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan:
[B]Sorry Nait, I can't help myself. Incorrect use of the term "parsed".

From Webster:

Definition: \Parse\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Parsed}; p. pr. & vb. n.
{Parsing}.] [L. pars a part; pars orationis a part of speech.
See {Part}, n.] (Gram.)
To resolve into its elements, as a sentence, pointing out the several parts of speech, and their relation to each other by government or agreement; to analyze and describe grammatically.</font>


Sorry, Evan, I can't resist:

"Parse" has another definition - Meaning #2 [from Meriam-Webster, On-line]:

2 : to examine in a minute way : analyze critically

My usage is correct. Thrud attempted a minute - some might say pedantic... - examination of my use of "eg", and he got it wrong because he didn't parse my sentence correctly. Even in the sense of parsing a sentence gramatically, my secondary comment is correct.

Greg Parent
10-10-2003, 09:53 AM
And my Mom can beat up your Mom!

wierdscience
10-10-2003, 12:26 PM
Its always good to remember that the news media in this country are escaped Nazi socialists hellbent on America becoming a socialist eutopia,thats why they always use the word "crisis" in the same sentence with healthcare,scares the old people better http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Always remember EUTOPIA IS THE ONLY NATION TO TAX ITSELF INTO PROSERITY!Thats why it doesn't exist!

T Wise
10-10-2003, 05:53 PM
I always wondered what someone could do with an english major.. I thought it was just so they could fix poetry, now I see so much more potential.

Hey Thrud, don't hold back, it's not healthy..

Tim

jfsmith
10-10-2003, 07:57 PM
Thrud and all my brothers of the Maple Leaf, are you planning on a happy and safe Thanksgiving this year?

Did anyone mention all of those friendly people who took into their homes the Americans and others on 911? When their planes were refused admission to U.S. air space? The last I checked you could not land a Boeing 757 in the Artic or in the ocean.

jerry

Evan
10-10-2003, 09:02 PM
Yes we are and we are having Chilcotin Turkey this year (hint: it doesn't have feathers). Thanks for thinking of us. Have a nice short weekend. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Thrud
10-11-2003, 03:04 AM
Jerry

I will not be scarfing down turkey this weekend - next weekend after I move my mom & oldest sister into their new house. I hate moving crap. Hopefully I will be dead before I have to move myself again.

Evan
No, have not been to that particular establishment. I only go to girlie bars when we have a smoker for a friend - alough I do have lots of autographs from some really nice, intelligent ladies with lovely hooters! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

Nait

I was just bugging you brother - and you missed the "swish" beer bottle joke too...Dang, I r losing it. Have a nice Thanksgiving...eh!

Evan
10-11-2003, 03:13 AM
Thrud,

Was on a training course in Calgary some years back. Me and a few of the guys went to the FrenchMaid. One of the guys made it past the bouncer and struck up a really temporary relationship (but interesting) when he offered to make her a couple of hundred posters on the color copiers we were being trained on. Best test patterns I have seen. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Now, for those of you who might be interested just go to the obvious address.com

Oh yeah, I guess the Chilcotin Turkey remark is a little too local. It refers to poached salmon which we will bake.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-11-2003).]