Tool steel

[MotorradMike]

Hi guys:

I read through the thread comparing Chinese HSS to American and am going to avoid the cheap Busy Bee tool blanks. I think carbide is wrong for me and my B2227L.

So I guess I have to mail order and have limited choice at KBC tools. The M-2, 5% Cobalt and 10% Cobalt are all KBC brand so probably Chinese.

The only other choice is T15 which carries a grinding warning perhaps because it is really hard?

Can anyone either set me straight or tell me not to worry about grinding T15?

Thanks,
Mike

[Black_Moons]

woah at the price of those T15 at KBC.. $33 for a 1/2 inch blank? $10 for a 1/4" blank?

Im sure theres gotta be cheaper mail order amercian blanks out there. .like some people said, 'new old stock' on ebay seems like a good option.

I mainly use carbide inserts myself.. That said I still reach for my HSS bits whenever I need a weird shaped tool, when im cutting plastic, need a good finish on diffacult materials, when I need to cut a O-ring grove, Even for weird shaped boring tools (though I use small bits in a boring bar, not grinding down entire 1/2" bits into a boring bar itself)

Iv bought lots of KBC's blanks and they seem ok.. but I havent directly compaired to other american HSS, and they do seem to often need sharpening.

[WilliamG]

Hi Mike

Don't be in such a big hurry and give up on Busy Bee cutting tools just yet. My initial purchase was the B1283 1/2" 5 pc set from Busy Bee on sale for $30.00.

For what its worth the first job I tackled was to remove the thread from a badly bent 1 & 1/2" stainless steel shaft. Having no lathe experience I chipped two carbide inserts but that was my fault and not an issue with the product. Also have several carbide tipped brazed tool bits from BB that appear to work well although I have only been at this a year.

We really need to chat.

Bill

[quasi]

It is much cheaper to order from Enco, Msc, Travers, ... and pay the extra shipping to Canada than buy from KBC in Canada. If you really want a shock, look at KBC's prices on their US website compared to their Canadian website.

[Black_Moons]

Woah, Price of one random vortex cooling gun on the USA version:
$378, CND: $530.04
It would be cheaper to order it from the USD site considering $378 after USD/CAD conversion is 398 CAD!!! Current exchange rate is 0.94
Who the hell does KBC think they are :( No wonder all there stuff seems about 30% overpriced, it IS.

[MotorradMike]

Ordering from the US is a problem for us in Canada.

Any parcel from a company is flagged at Customs and has to be imported. I don't mind paying duty if applicable, often none is payable, but it still has to be imported by somebody and that isn't cheap.

Shipping within the Continental US is dirt cheap compared to International shipping.

I actually have a US address I can use. They accept packages for about 5$. It's a 100kM round trip including a toll bridge(another 6$ round trip). Then I declare goods at the border and pay taxes and applicable duty.

Motorcycle tires are all I have used this method for because we really get screwed up here for those.

Mike

[Black_Moons]

? iv had no problems ordering stuff from the USA, but I insure they ship UPS express or USPS. *never ever* UPS ground/standard as that incures very large fees.

[Fasttrack]

T-15 is a tungsten-cobalt alloy. I've got a small assortment of Crucible's Rex T15 and a small collection of Rex 95. They grind about the same: a lot slower than ordinary tools steel. To grind a new bit to a "standard" tool, it takes about 4 or 5 wheel dressings. Notice the chart - ordinary T15 has a grinding ratio of 0.6 vs 3.9 for M2 steel! :eek: The warning may also be about the high cobalt content. Cobalt dust is not good for your lungs.

See here:

http://crucibleservice.com/datash/dsT15v9.pdf

Maybe some folks here could help you out on the ordering. If it is for home-shop use, maybe we could arrange a deal where you buy the material and ship it to someone in the States. Then, they can declare it a "gift" and ship it on to Canada.

pm me if you want to work something out. I did something similar for John Stevenson.

[MotorradMike]

Hey Fasttrack:

Thanks for answering my T-15 question and thanks also for the offer. Parcel post seems to work, I may take you up on that.

Mike

[hssmike]

Mike
PM sent.
There is a difference in grinding T-15 PM or (CPM) and Conventional T-15.
PM is much easier to grind than conventional. If you can grind ANY HSS bit, you can grind T-15. It just takes longer, but you get what you pay for. A T-15 bit sharpened the same as a M-2 (domestic) will outlast it as much as 20 to 1 before regrinding. I won't even compare the imports.

Mike Warner
Arthur R Warner Co.

[Fasttrack]

Mike
PM sent.
There is a difference in grinding T-15 PM or (CPM) and Conventional T-15.
PM is much easier to grind than conventional. If you can grind ANY HSS bit, you can grind T-15. It just takes longer, but you get what you pay for. A T-15 bit sharpened the same as a M-2 (domestic) will outlast it as much as 20 to 1 before regrinding. I won't even compare the imports.

Mike Warner
Arthur R Warner Co.

I second that. The chart on that link I provided put T15 CPM at a grinding ratio of 2.2 - much more manegable.

[Duffy]

Two points Mike:- first, for companies in the US who will ship USPS, a 20 lb box is about USD $25.00, and I believe there is an 8 lb rate that is about $10.00. Second, you might give Legere Tools in Ottawa a call. They will have tool steel other than asian; I know that they stock British taps and dies. No idea the cost, but I was p[leasantly surprised when I bought a solid carbide end mill from them, and Starret bi-metal hacksaw blades are $0.98 each! Duffy

[Duffy]

Mike:- forgot to add; the Post Office generally does not even bother to collect the GST and I have NEVER paid duty. Duffy

[MotorradMike]

Two points Mike:- first, for companies in the US who will ship USPS, a 20 lb box is about USD $25.00, and I believe there is an 8 lb rate that is about $10.00. Second, you might give Legere Tools in Ottawa a call. They will have tool steel other than asian; I know that they stock British taps and dies. No idea the cost, but I was p[leasantly surprised when I bought a solid carbide end mill from them, and Starret bi-metal hacksaw blades are $0.98 each! Duffy

Thanks Duffy:

Their website doesn't show what they have so I assumed they did machines only.

Mike

[J Tiers]

Yah chinese tool steel is crap?

tell that to the 3/8" rougher that has been nearly the only cutter I use for months....... gets used for anything that doesn't need a good finish, and gets used until the finish cuts even then.

Just trimmed down some hardened steel with it, took off 1/8", no idea of the RC, but it deflected a file to a considerable extent. The cutter is still cutting as well as any.

Just because something is chinese does not mean its crap. It means it came from the same country where a lot of bogus products and crap comes from. That's all.

[airsmith282]

Hi guys:

I read through the thread comparing Chinese HSS to American and am going to avoid the cheap Busy Bee tool blanks. I think carbide is wrong for me and my B2227L.

So I guess I have to mail order and have limited choice at KBC tools. The M-2, 5% Cobalt and 10% Cobalt are all KBC brand so probably Chinese.

The only other choice is T15 which carries a grinding warning perhaps because it is really hard?

Can anyone either set me straight or tell me not to worry about grinding T15?

Thanks,
Mike

i have a busy bee b2227L with over 42,000 hour's log on it .. And i have had no issues using there HSS blanks at all.
in fact as far as i can tell they as well as the more expensive are exactly the same. The sharpen the same they perfrom and cut the same they hold their edges the same , so really what are you paying for , now if we were comparing taps and dies ok there is a huge difference,drill chucks huge difference, 7x12 or 7x14 or 10x18 lahte and so on ok you got differences ,

i have some really expensive and i do mean expensive brand name HSS blanks and i have the busy bee from 1/8 to 1/2 inch sizes only reason is a some were given to me and b i had to shop local and get raped on price cause i only needed the 1 or 2 and was not going to drive 3 hours to go get the ones from busy bee...

ok now for carbide i have used them on the b2227L and they are just to costly you get one little chip your screwed you brake an indexer style your screwed brazed on your screwed..they do work well on stronge steels and have a nice finsih but only on hi speeds, ..

iam not much different with my mill i have cheap cutters and i have some really expsive stuff on the mill i perfer to use HSS but i wil use some carbide stuff as well, but index cutters on the mill i have 1 you dont want to know the price but its ok but its gota be run fast and light cuts where the hss and carbide regual end mills i can run fast slow and take a 1 icnh cut and not think about it anything index wise run fast and take shallow like 5 to 10 thou at a time and your ok,, any thing more i asking for trouble,..

[Black_Moons]

airsmith282: Typicaly, carbide can remove more metal then HSS, IF your machine has enough rigidity and horse power to do it. Lack of rigidity can lead to very short life with carbide, as well as some mistakes like stoping the spindle with the tool still cutting almost allways chips carbide, but not HSS.
On my 12x36" lathe, I use carbide inserts to take 0.1" deep cuts in mild steel at 250+sfm with smoking scalding hot blue chips flying everywhere and 0.25" deep cuts in aluminum at 1000SFM+ (When the diamiter is big enough that my lathe can even go that fast!) . I doubt HSS would enjoy those dark blue chips, but if your lathe would of stalled before making those blue chips anyway, Carbide isent exactly that helpful (Unless working on very hard materials) and can even take more HP to cut as its often 'duller' then HSS bits.

Those cheap brazed carbide bits sold for pennys do seem to be truely crap, and you NEED a diamond coated grinding wheel to get any kinda life outta them. The higher end brazed carbide bits are probley fine but still need a diamond grinder.

Also, a few places actualy sell HSS 'inserts' for carbide indexable tooling, designed with hobbiest lathes in mind.

[hssmike]

Just because something is chinese does not mean its crap. It means it came from the same country where a lot of bogus products and crap comes from. That's all.

As a manufacturer, I can't, and I won't take the chance of inconsistent material. I understand that some Asian materials are performing well, but a lot are not. Would you buy 500 of the tools that you mentioned, put your name on them, and resell them? I realize this is an off the wall analogy because I don't resell finished products, I make them. I guess at this point we will have to agree to disagree.

Mike Warner
Arthur R Warner Co.

[JCHannum]

i have a busy bee b2227L with over 42,000 hour's log on it .. And i have had no issues using there HSS blanks at all.

Wow, that's 8 hours a day, five days a week for 21 years. Quite a testimony for the longevity of Chicom tools. Who would have thought?

[JCHannum]

As a manufacturer, I can't, and I won't take the chance of inconsistent material. I understand that some Asian materials are performing well, but a lot are not. Would you buy 500 of the tools that you mentioned, put your name on them, and resell them? I realize this is an off the wall analogy because I don't resell finished products, I make them. I guess at this point we will have to agree to disagree.

Mike Warner
Arthur R Warner Co.

Mike, that was a particularly odd comment from Jerry considering his many posts attesting to his direct involvement with the varying quality of Asian imports. What you get today has no bearing in what you might get tomorrow.

[gwilson]

Those cheap brazed carbide lathe tools aren't ready to use as issued. You are supposed to hone them first.

[airsmith282]

airsmith282: Typicaly, carbide can remove more metal then HSS, IF your machine has enough rigidity and horse power to do it. Lack of rigidity can lead to very short life with carbide, as well as some mistakes like stoping the spindle with the tool still cutting almost allways chips carbide, but not HSS.
On my 12x36" lathe, I use carbide inserts to take 0.1" deep cuts in mild steel at 250+sfm with smoking scalding hot blue chips flying everywhere and 0.25" deep cuts in aluminum at 1000SFM+ (When the diamiter is big enough that my lathe can even go that fast!) . I doubt HSS would enjoy those dark blue chips, but if your lathe would of stalled before making those blue chips anyway, Carbide isent exactly that helpful (Unless working on very hard materials) and can even take more HP to cut as its often 'duller' then HSS bits.

Those cheap brazed carbide bits sold for pennys do seem to be truely crap, and you NEED a diamond coated grinding wheel to get any kinda life outta them. The higher end brazed carbide bits are probley fine but still need a diamond grinder.

Also, a few places actualy sell HSS 'inserts' for carbide indexable tooling, designed with hobbiest lathes in mind.

you do realize that the hotter you get he metal you are turrning the more chance there is of when it expans it will not contract to the same diaameter hence you screw up the OD when your done and you weaken the metal the hotter you get it, you need to keeo the metal cold as you can to insure that when you take that finel cut that the diameter is not affected in a negitive way,
hog all you want but its your project that will be messed up , i take my time and take light cuts in steels and aluim as well ,, all my stuffi turn is the exact ID it needs to be and i do not affect the strength of the metals either,

iam sure my machine can take some deep cuts and i did it in the past to try and see what its limits were and i also found that when pushing it as well my stuf was screwed in the end so now i take my sweet time and do the job right every time and with out error..

mind you the sort of stuff i do requires hi persision and my B2227L does a great job at it ,,

[hssmike]

Also, a few places actually sell HSS 'inserts' for carbide indexable tooling, designed with hobbyist lathes in mind.

Black_moons
We are one of the few company's that manufactures High Speed Steel inserts. Our company has been producing HSS inserts for 46 years. 85% of our insert sales are to industry.
Times have changed dramatically, but industry is still the forefront of our insert sales. You would be surprised how many machining centers are running HSS. One thing industry looks at that HSM don't is economics of production runs. It all boils down to how many parts can I machine before tool changes, what is my metal removal rate, what is my tool cost and can I achieve the necessary finish. Sure you can take a .100 DOC @ 250SFM, but after the 4th or 5th pass if you wear or chip the insert, what then? Granted this is unlikely in mild steel (try high nickel). If you can take a .100 DOC @60 SFM and the inserts lasts 20 passes, which is more economical? We also sell a lot of inserts to the plastic industry for both milling and turning. They need the very sharp, keen cutting edge to get a good finish. Our inserts are not designed for the hobbyist; they are just a good fit. Everyone always compares HSS to carbide and the two are really not comparable. (Is comparable a real word ???) They both have there own pros and con's and are designed to operate accordingly.

Thanks
Mike Warner
Arthur R Warner Co.

[J Tiers]

It IS odd, but it is the truth, actually. I was quite surprised.

However, I am old enough to remember the days of "cheap Japanese crap". I remember stuff made of stamped sheet metal, that if you took it apart, you might be able to see a fragment of the word "Hamms" or some other similar brand name on the back side.

Few would be saying much about "cheap Japanese crap" today.

Quality IS variable. But it is getting to the point that if you do a reasonable job of selecting the company in china, you will get good quality. You CAN get superior quality, but you will pay enough for it that you could almost make it anywhere at the same price.

So, to answer Mike Warner, Yes, I might. I'd want to know more about the company, I'd want to do QC tests, but it would be possible to do well with a product like that. I'd personally not want to, because I have totally other issues with it. But teh product is good.

The good chinese companies make good products. The bad chinese companies make highly variable products, or bad products only.

Very literally "You pays your money and you takes your choice".