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George Bulliss
12-16-2009, 03:26 PM
I had a few questions in another thread about the posting of items for sale on the site. I have since renewed my push for a classified section and it sounds like it is at least a possibility. Donít get too excited though, glaciers move faster than some changes around here.

In the meantime, in my ongoing campaign to make this site a little less half-assed, I am going to put a mention of the no for sale policy in the forum introductions. As was pointed out in the other thread, unless you are a mind reader, there is no way to know that we donít allow for sale posts.

George

torker
12-16-2009, 03:53 PM
George...why don't you just make this post a "sticky"?

Rich Carlstedt
12-16-2009, 04:01 PM
George
For the sake of costs, and I know some here will beat me up for this suggestion, but will you charge for this service ?
I would think it to be appropriate , since Village Press offersr a similar service through the magazines , and a BB sale may be a loss of revenue to the very company that provides us with this fine forum ?
I don't know if "charging" then implies accountability for sales problems.
I would think a "posting" charge , and not a sales dollar %, would alleviate this issue
My two cents, but if Village Press sees this website as a plus, it means you will be around here longer !
Running Websites is not free

I would only add that I think eBay has killed the golden goose with some of the excessive charges
I for one, have several shop items that are surplus to needs and a simple outlet, could make life easier.
Rich

Bill Pace
12-16-2009, 04:03 PM
just make this post a "sticky"?


Good idea, it sums it up pretty nicely....

And, by the way, kudos on your monitoring this bunch, and, for pushing for the 'for sale' ability - I also think that would be a great addition to an already great forum.

Bill Pace

George Bulliss
12-16-2009, 04:16 PM
George...why don't you just make this post a "sticky"?

Torker,

I’m just not a big fan of sticky posts cluttering up the top of the page. Hopefully the notices in the introductions are only a temporary thing.

Rich,

We are going to look into the possibility of charging. The ad rep and I don’t quite agree on things yet but we’ll get it worked out. There was also some talk of making the for sale forum a subscriber only area and that is another possibility.

I don’t think fees would need to be much, even a few bucks will add up. As long as the site can make some money, or bring in some subscriptions, management will be much more likely to leave it alone. I know that the site serves as an introduction to our magazines, but without a means of quantifying this, that doesn’t carry much weight around here.

George

Pete F
12-16-2009, 04:25 PM
I will go on record and say that I would not have subscribed to this magazine (or even known about it) without this site.

-Pete

John Stevenson
12-16-2009, 04:26 PM
There was also some talk of making the forum a subscriber only area and that is another possibility.


George

That should sort some of the tight arses out.............................:p

.

Your Old Dog
12-16-2009, 04:37 PM
Yeo Geo! If you decide to charge, I'd go easy on it if I were you guys. The wealth of knowledge that is found here comes from all over. Some of the best tips have been from those with very limited number of post. If I paid for all the sites that hold an interest to me I'd go broke pronto.

Now, I will admit that I thought it was very charitable of you guys to let some forum members bite the hand that feeds them by critizing a few of the monthly articals in the magazines. I know we are a group of so called critical thinkers but finding fault with the host product is in my mind very tacky. Allowing negative post of magazine articals does not help the company sell magazines.

If you allowed me to download the magazines and info if I subscribed you could have my subscription right now. But I hope that woudn't negate non subscribers from making post here as they are often helpful.

George Bulliss
12-16-2009, 04:44 PM
Yeo Geo! If you decide to charge, I'd go easy on it if I were you guys. The wealth of knowledge that is found here comes from all over. Some of the best tips have been from those with very limited number of post. If I paid for all the sites that hold an interest to me I'd go broke pronto.

For the record, we arenít talking about charging to use this site, just a yet to be created ďFor SaleĒ forum. The rest of the forums would remain the same, free to everybody.

George

Bootj
12-16-2009, 04:53 PM
Torker,

I know that the site serves as an introduction to our magazines, but without a means of quantifying this, that doesnít carry much weight around here.

George

Being a new guy here I didn't realize that there were three different magazines. :o

I must have missed the advertisements on the board somewhere??

Then I had to find the little spot down at the bottom of the board that led me to the magazine site.

I am a member of a couple of boards that DO make you pay for ads over a certain dollar amount. Itís not a big deal, a couple of bucks. I pay for the service regularly. These forums are a great place to sell your stuff. (Target market).
Regards,
Paul Booth

Your Old Dog
12-16-2009, 05:01 PM
Geo, you da man :D

Evan
12-16-2009, 05:06 PM
I know that the site serves as an introduction to our magazines, but without a means of quantifying this, that doesn’t carry much weight around here.



Hmm. Have whomever check with Glacern to see just how effective this forum is. Without this froum and the numerous participants I suspect your magazines would be non existent. Any print publication without a significant on line presence has already died. This forum is by far the greatest page hit generator for Villiage Press, of that I am certain. It really shouldn't be difficult to justify it's cost even though it doesn't show up as a distinct profit centre.

That reminds me of when I worked for Xerox. When the bean counters started to take over everything in the late 80's they discovered that the entire service dept. was a total loss operation on paper. The cow pies hit the fan and the arguments became absurd such as "well, if service can't turn a profit then let's eliminate it".

It was truly stupid and it was very difficult to convince accountants that there are absolutely necessary business operations that cannot be pinned down to the amount of revenue they generate. Accountants just hate anything that they can't hold accountable.

John Stevenson
12-16-2009, 05:12 PM
We run a free advert site but it's mainly UK based.

http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/

Up until a couple of months ago this whole site was free for sellers and buyers but we were asked by traders if they could pay to keep their adverts current.

The site was redesigned to allow this and the trade adverts pay for the running of the site, nothing more and it's still a labour of love.

All the 'normal private' adverts are placed and published and it's up to buyers to deal direct with them but there are no charges for buyers or sellers, hidden or otherwise/.
.

MTNGUN
12-16-2009, 06:18 PM
I'd be willing to pay reasonable fees to post items for sale on this forum. I'm not too keen on the subscription idea, though.

I subscribed to your magazines for a year -- after learning about them through this forum -- but I did not renew for the same reason that I discontinued all my other magazine subscriptions -- because the internet is a richer source of information.

Printed media is dying. If you want to survive, online content -- and online ads -- are part of the answer.

jb-mck
12-16-2009, 06:36 PM
I hope this works out. It would be a great resource for all of us.

jdunmyer
12-16-2009, 06:41 PM
Instead of "pay a small fee for an ad" OR "only magazine subscribers can post ads", why not make ad posting "free" for magazine subscribers, but charge a fee for non-subscribers. IE: "Membership has its privileges".

Please have an alternative to PayPal. I don't use that service and don't really want to start. I'd pay an annual fee to be able to post ads, if it isn't free for subscribers.

FWIW: I subscribe to HSM and MW, but not DM. The Internet is great, but so are printed magazines. Dunno about most here, but I don't have Internet in the Library. (read: bathroom)

Hal
12-16-2009, 06:41 PM
It would be nice to have a for sale section. It's nice to see some of these machine and tooling go to home users.

Hal

john hobdeclipe
12-16-2009, 08:13 PM
I also would like to see a for sale / wanted section, and I'd be willing to pay a modest fee to post the occasional ad.

A VERY modest fee!

mechanicalmagic
12-16-2009, 08:22 PM
I'm not a fan of stickies either.

But, there is a proper place, the FAQ page on the top bar.

As far as shoving the glacier, it might be pointed out that many other boards have a "for sale" page for private sales, and some have a commercial sale section, for sponsors (presumably at some cost). If you are driving members to other boards to sell their stuff, they will be spending less time here.

torker
12-16-2009, 09:11 PM
I'll never subscribe to another magazine either.
I used to have a lot of subscriptions...but got tired of the magazines being a month or more late...and in the past years...getting them only to find they were very well read before I recieved them.
I'd love to get HSM magazine.
Darin (weirdscience) sent me a box full of old ones awhile back.
I still read those. They are a great magazine.
But...I fear that the postal employees will like them also.
Therefore and hencewithmanymuches(I just made that up) ...
I'd pay some kind of user fee for the For Sale section.
Russ

JoeLee
12-16-2009, 09:17 PM
A board to post wants would be nice !!!!

JL.................

RobbieKnobbie
12-16-2009, 09:32 PM
I think the paid ads/free ads for subscribers is a great idea. It would be a great resource and I have a few goodies I'd like to unload, err, sell to a loving home... and there are a lot of things I'd like to buy from fellow entheusiasts.

And in case you're counting, I used to buy HSM and MW at the news stand years ago, then when I 'found' this site I wound up subscribing to both of them. Wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the site.

dp
12-16-2009, 09:48 PM
I was about to add an on-line classifieds area to my blog. Seems like it would be popular here even as a for-fee offering. I can't think of any reason the publishing company can't make a little cost covering profit from such an offering.

andy_b
12-16-2009, 10:19 PM
I will go on record and say that I would not have subscribed to this magazine (or even known about it) without this site.

-Pete

Same here. And one reason I keep subscribing is because I use this site a LOT. Plus, I do read the magazines. :)

andy b.

johnnyd
12-17-2009, 01:06 AM
How about 4 free "For Sale" posts per year with a years paid subscription?
Thats 1 post per quarter, but would require a coded number from your mailing label to register?

tyrone shewlaces
12-17-2009, 02:22 AM
Since they're free, I'll offer a thought or two.

Point 1:
As has been mentioned, many subscriptions have resulted from folks who discovered this forum. The forum gets the word out about HSM et cie.

Point 2: If guys have no tools, they will likely at least not grow any interest in keeping a subscription current over time, so an active "for sale" section would help VP too. Allowing "for sale" posts is a decision, not an investment (costs zero money essentially).
The decision boils down to competition between "for sale" posts here vs. classified ads in the magazine.

Point 3:
Back in the day, a classified ad in the magazine was one of a few outlets to sell something. The scene has changed obviously, evidenced by the demise of a lot of newspapers which could not weather the storm of the internet age. I'm sure the powers that be have reasons that I likely wouldn't consider, but to me it seems a bit like culture lag to hold onto the idea of not allowing ads somewhere on the forum. No offense meant - just my own feeling.

Free selling on CL is a big deal. eBay used to be a similar big deal but they want such a big cut anymore that it no longer suits folks who just want to thin the herd a bit. CL is pretty much local only, so there are obvious limitations, but it fits a niche too. eBay once was something great for everybody, but it appeals to volume sellers much more these days and the little guy gets ripped I think.

I would really like to see an auction site take over the market that eBay used to serve. There is a void there and nobody seems to be able or want to replace it. If I had my druther, I would like to see VP start an auction site to serve that void where a mass of tool sellers went to trade there goods and let VP get a fair cut and make profit from it. However, I've seen a lot of small eBay clones start up and just eventually die off. Unfortunately that would be the likely path if an auction type of thing were started by VP unless they did something clever that would give it the right spark. Maybe they could pull it off and I think that would be GREAT. I would definitely sell stuff on it and be happy to pay VP a fair percentage. Trying to rake in a big cut like eBay gets would doom it from the start of course (why do that when you can just go to eBay). There is eBay-like software out there that they could check out. I would think that if they could work this out, VP could bring in much more than magazine classifieds would. I know there would have to be a set of rules to work out, but that can and should be done. They could even work out a deal with vendors who advertise in the publications to sell their wares on it. That way folks who are not subscribers would be exposed to those vendors here. Seems fair for VP to get a fair share from the vendors for that exposure too. Currently, those vendors get zero exposure here, right?

Short of that, I feel that requiring payment or subscription to post ads would just keep the pool smaller. Just guessing, but I doubt the payoff would be much. I think it would be best to just allow free ads (for individuals) and leverage that feature of the forum to create more exposure to the public to increase magazine sales. If this is the place to come to see what is for sale, then that would have to be good for VP in terms of exposure.

It's true that there isn't much mention of the publications on this forum, so making that more visible than it is now would definitely be a good idea. I'd recommend it not be a big flashing banner ad, but rather something in reasonable, larger font along the top of the page (or somewhere more visible but still inoffensive) that is always present. Subtlety would soak in eventually. No need to chase people off trying to reach folks the first time in the door.

One example not to follow: PM. The way that site has evolved has run me off. I haven't even looked at it in a couple years. HSM forum is still quite fun. VP is doing that right. Kudos.

So anyway to sum up my opinion - either allow free classified posts and increase exposure and magazine subscriptions, or set up an auction type of page and make some additional income (also increasing exposure). In either case, make subtle mention of the publications and how to subscribe to them (a link) omnipresent.

It seems that something, some way, to buy/sell tools here is long overdue. I think VP is missing out honestly. I'm sure it would be very popular. How could that hurt?

Black_Moons
12-17-2009, 02:31 AM
Theres a magazine? First iv heard of this.. -_-;

Circlip
12-17-2009, 02:49 AM
So, would it be viable if a couple of dozen "Paid" for the service?? I highly doubt it. Thank heavens for Sir Johns site in the UK, Haven't bought anything from it, BUT have been able to help numerous people with info.

Thanks John,Gert and your Lad, an invaluable FREE service.

Regards Ian.

J Tiers
12-17-2009, 08:57 AM
The idea of a "subscriber's area" which includes the classifieds is very reasonable.

I notice that the classifieds in the magazine are about teh total size of one of the smaller page advertisements.... so any loss of revenue there is probably not a huge issue. And, of course, "subscribers" have "already paid" a significant entry fee.

There are options.....

1) ONLY subscribers could access the section at all

2) ONLY subscribers could POST ads, but anyone can read them

In terms of adding readership, there is an argument to be made that the second option is better, in that tool-less potential shop-starters could start to set up that way, instead of drifting away. it retains the benefit of encouraging readership...

And there is the "members club" effect of option 1.

One significant issue with classifieds, which is evident on PM..... Dealers getting free ads there. You don't want to cut your throat with free services, subtracting a number of regular adverts from the magazine.

There is one person at PM who posts ads in the PM classified, and is evidently a dealer, even though he represents himself as selling off his shop..... So many tons are said to have moved that it looks like he is really a dealer, and his ebay activities apparently confirm it. You don't want that.

kcleere
12-17-2009, 10:08 AM
Heck I didn't even know there was a magazine until I found this website.

NOW I'm going to subscribe to the MAG.

I for one would REALLY like to see a buy/sell forum added to this site.

Roy Andrews
12-17-2009, 10:36 AM
i must be fairly dense i subscribe to all four magazines and until George took over the forum i didn't realize the magazine owned the forum. i would like the for sale section and think it's reasonable to pay for it. i have given things away before on this site because i would rather they go to my friends here than some thug on e bay. this spring I'm going to do a major house keeping to organize the garage and lots will go. free if need be.

dp
12-17-2009, 10:40 AM
My "for fee" idea is intended for the institutional sellers. And it's in the idea bud stage, but it would work like this. A company decides they have a bit of overstock and puts out a flyer with advertised specials. Among those tools might be a rotary table that is going out of production. Rather than buying an advertisement here to advertise that, they list it, for a fee, in the For-Sale area. It is both a spot advert for their business, and a specific item for sale, and a bit of income for HSM. The same model as the magazine.

I'd really recommend against using a forum area for sales as posts last forever unless manual pruning takes place. They can last even longer on Google. Even CL ads have an almost permanent home on Google. Purpose built classified ad software is good, affordable, and self-tending.

Edit: Something else - I've run an on-line auction site for about 10 years. That has been a lot of fun for me, all the proceeds go to a charitable fund for a fellow biker friend, and has made a lot of money for his PT and special transportation needs. More and more people are dissatisfied with Ebay and CL, so perhaps a local auction section, using real auction software, could work here.

davidh
12-17-2009, 01:25 PM
Heck I didn't even know there was a magazine until I found this website.

NOW I'm going to subscribe to the MAG.

I for one would REALLY like to see a buy/sell forum added to this site.


am i blind or ? i don't see any direct link to the mags. how does one subscribe ?
i too would like to see a buy/sell area. ads only available to mag subscribers as no-charge. but available to all to see. . . .

lazlo
12-17-2009, 01:58 PM
Even CL ads have an almost permanent home on Google. Purpose built classified ad software is good, affordable, and self-tending.

Craigslist Ads and Ebay auctions are tagged as No-Archive for exactly that reason -- they don't want them showing up on Google searches.

Mike Burdick
12-17-2009, 02:27 PM
... I don't see any direct link to the mags. How does one subscribe? ...
.

Go to their main web page...

http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/

George Bulliss
12-17-2009, 03:35 PM
Thanks for the comments guys. I havenít had a chance to read through all of them yet, but it looks like there are some good ideas.

As I had mentioned, donít expect anything soon. I need to get with IT for this (see glacier reference in my first post) to figure what we can and canít do. Getting it by the ad rep was just the first step.

George

dp
12-17-2009, 04:50 PM
Craigslist Ads and Ebay auctions are tagged as No-Archive for exactly that reason -- they don't want them showing up on Google searches.

I wish that worked.

lazlo
12-17-2009, 04:52 PM
I wish that worked.

It does. Try to Google a Craigslist post that has been removed. It's gone. Ditto for Ebay auctions.

The only time they show up is if those annoying little personal referral link sites that troll Ebay to generate a list of auctions, in which case Google will index the copy of the Ebay auctions.

dp
12-17-2009, 05:15 PM
It does. Try to Google a Craigslist post that has been removed. It's gone. Ditto for Ebay auctions.

The only time they show up is if those annoying little personal referral link sites that troll Ebay to generate a list of auctions, in which case Google will index the copy of the Ebay auctions.

I not only wish that worked, I wish you were right. I find dead listings for Ebay and CL all the time - why do you think I brought it up? It's a bit time waster.

Try: metal lathe site:seattle.craigslist.org on Google, for example, then follow the top links.

lazlo
12-17-2009, 05:22 PM
I not only wish that worked, I wish you were right.

Try: metal lathe site:seattle.craigslist.org on Google, for example, then follow the top links.

<meta name="robots" content="NOARCHIVE"> works exactly as it should:

Click on the first link for the Craftsman 6" Lathe:

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=metal+lathe+site%3Aseattle.craigslist.org

It was an active Craigslist Ad that was deleted by the seller, so now the Craigslist auction is gone forever.

Google correctly indexes "http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/1502619418.html" (which says "Ad Deleted By Seller") because that's a valid Craiglist link.

Everything works exactly as it should.

dp
12-17-2009, 05:35 PM
Everything works exactly as it should.

Except there's nothing for sale at that link. What part of useless are you missing in this? I don't want to find a valid but stale link. That stale link may still be there on Google weeks from now. That is why Google is so frustrating with Ebay and CL.

lazlo
12-17-2009, 05:42 PM
Except there's nothing for sale at that link. What part of useless are you missing in this?

That's neither Google nor Craigslist's fault.

"http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/1502619418.html"

Is a valid link. Should Google not index it? Or should Craigslist delete the Ad number once the item is sold?

Sounds like you want Craigslist to change the 'bot entry from <NOARCHIVE> to <NOINDEX> once the item is sold, to save you an extra click.

In any event, it's a minor annoyance and should not be any issue for George having for sale ads here. It certainly isn't an issue on CNCZone or PracticalMachinist.

davidh
12-17-2009, 06:00 PM
BACK to the orig "for sale item post".
ii just checked the hms web site. books published ever other month.

i will still subscribe but, with the want ads only appearing every 60 days, they become stale before they even get to print. hell, some of us old boys could be dead by the time the ad comes to print.

i guess thats one argument for an on-line for sale place to go for our stuff. . . just my humble opinion.

i suppose we all cannot be considered resoponsible enuf to delete whatever our ads may be when stuff is no longer available ? ? ? if george can convince the powers that be. . . .

Falcon67
12-17-2009, 11:45 PM
Hmm. Have whomever check with Glacern to see just how effective this forum is. Without this froum and the numerous participants I suspect your magazines would be non existent. Any print publication without a significant on line presence has already died.

Don't run too far with that - Source Interlink owns most of the car hobby magazines in the US. They have a petty common web site build for each mag. And they suck, all of them. Car Craft and Hot Rod get some decent traffic but most of the others catch very little. The sites are slow and not real user friendly at times and none have a "for sale" section. These are pub with circulation in the 150K~250K range. Modified Mustangs has a paid and stand sales of 81K copies and their forum is very quiet. All that's just to put things in perspective.

Some of the most active sites on the internet have no other presence in the real world. Most of those are specialized (one I'm familiar with) - like fordmuscle.com, fordfe.com (source of all FE info on the net), 351cleveland.net. These sites do a good job of moving related product among their members and people get referred there from other sites when searching for specific items.

IMHO as a person with a long time web presence (since around 1996) - For a mag like HSM that has a limited print schedule, AND that have an active forum presence - either because of the magazine or in spite of it LOL - a For Sale section could (would I say) be an additional traffic generator. Pulling more people to the forum site increases the chance of subscription sales for the magazine and chance sponsor sales. The marketing folks should know this unless they have their heads in the sand.

The q then is free or fee. One big site I frequent is The Ford Falcon News. Dave only lets supporters post For Sale ads while non supporters can only post Wanted ads. The site has 4100 members and is member supported.

Allowing non-subscribers to post ads may bring in traffic that might otherwise pass by. Charging commercial vendors a small fee based on "impressions" (site hits) would generate some revenue. You could also mandate that posting an ad in the For Sale section requires you "opt in" for magazine advertisement traffic. This would not be "spam" because (IIRC) spam is not spam if you have established some business or other relationship with the sender.

Whatever drives traffic to the site helps and the magazine identity should be more prominent on the site. The magazines should have banner ads on the top, just like Glacern. I also think that an additional section like "Free Association" or some such should be provided to draw off topic posts. "General" should maybe be more like "General Machining" and posts there held closer to that standard. Nothing wrong with the "787 fight" type posts, but they do detract from the machining center of the category. IMHO, anywho. The membership here seems high enough to drive the ad traffic, especially since PM drives away the "import machine" crowd. HSM should take advantage of that, Chaski does.

Dawai
12-18-2009, 06:29 AM
The pay to play would weed out the hookers and con artists I get hit with on craigslist.

I sold this week.. a antique cinncinatti to a lurker, a miller 300 spectrum plasma cutter for a bargain.

I have a dozen ads on there, I have been hit with hundreds of PHISHING inquiries.. normal is.. a link that looks like a picture, but opens up a octlet stream?? what the heck is that? a networking line?? and then the vague inquiries.. "is your item still available??" they don't want a thing but a email to spam..

Rock on HSM.. With each new open door, there are more doors to find.

lazlo
12-18-2009, 09:45 AM
The pay to play would weed out the hookers and con artists I get hit with on craigslist.

Dang David, you get hookers? All I get is guys trying to sell me something that needs my bank account number :p

Dawai
12-18-2009, 12:29 PM
Lazlo... know the snoopy dance on peanuts cartoon..

Imagine a 300lb tattooed man doing that..

That lil CRX just fired up.. removed 3lbs of butchered wiring harness and relays, and cut off switches... and... three days of praying.. THANKIE LORD I bought a parts car.

Now I can get it street ready, sell or drive it. I'm for swapping it for a hayabusa..