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thistle
10-01-2003, 08:57 PM
any one know where i might find some stainless bolts in BSF ?

daryl bane
10-01-2003, 10:49 PM
Check Classic Motorcycle magazines, especially
British ones. I remember a Co. Ralph Allen in
the UK specialised in SS brit fasteners.

Ragarsed Raglan
10-02-2003, 03:17 PM
What do you need thistle? (diameter x length x quantity)

Those pesky seagull motors falling apart due to corroded fasteners???

RR

thistle
10-04-2003, 07:49 AM
i just received another 2 poor old engines with unsalvagable fasteners,and since i already have 2 more to fix i dont think im going to go and make any of those bolts but would rather buy .

these are as a result of the recent hurricane ,i also have 5 woodworking machines that spent a while rolling under 14 feet of surf so im busy fixing things .

i will have to pull some bolts and measure them , of the top of my head 5/16 and 1/4 diameter though

thistle
10-04-2003, 09:09 PM
this is what6 the fuss is about;-

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/seagulls/53d69742.jpg

Thrud
10-05-2003, 03:37 AM
Too cool!

Evan
10-05-2003, 04:34 AM
I'll take the one on the right. Looks just perfect for my Grumman 18' canoe. Need a prop though.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-05-2003).]

thistle
10-05-2003, 04:41 PM
the one on the right is going to be a stock race engine .

going to put a differant prop on it to cheat alittle.

is that an aluminium canoe .my family have a grumman canoe thing must be from the 1950s and still going .they had a seagull on it at one point years ago.

Ragarsed Raglan
10-06-2003, 03:17 PM
Jeez! I was only jokin' about those Seagulls!!! didn't realise I was going to hit bulls eye.

I've just been given a shed load of BSW/BSF fasteners from a fastener supply company that has 're-aligned' their stock (in other words they will only 'do' metric crap from now on!!). Quite a few of the fasteners are stainless - so let me know when you come up with the sizes and quantities.

RR

thistle
10-07-2003, 05:55 PM
another patient in the need bsf screw department.

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/seagulls/f4e822ed.jpg

that motor cycle engine works on the same priciple as the seagull, if you get it started the manufacturer bears no responsibility for stopping it ,no battery,electrical system ect.

still have not pulled those bolts yet ragarsed, working on it though.

Evan
10-07-2003, 06:02 PM
Thistle,

Yep, it's a 18' Grumman lightweight made from .032 aircraft aluminum. Only weighs 67lbs and is the fastest canoe on the water. I have a full sail rig with jib and mainsail, storm jib, leeboard and rudder. The entire sail rig weighs about 17lbs and the mast and boom stow under the thwarts completely out of the way. My design. Sewed the mainsail myself. I have sailed 25 miles in a day without lifting a paddle and it will point up about 45 degrees course made good into the wind.

thistle
10-07-2003, 06:09 PM
the only thing i can say is that they knew how to make those canoes.
i would like to get my paws on it and polish the thing .

i understand the manufacture of the aluminium canoes boats is interesting- i have not ever seen it and could be wrong-but
understand they take a big sheet of aluminium and pull on it hydraulically until the point when it is almost going destruct then bring up the form at the same time releasing the pulland voila half a hull

is this true?


[This message has been edited by thistle (edited 10-07-2003).]

Evan
10-07-2003, 06:29 PM
Thistle,

It IS polished to a mirror finish, by me. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

The hull halves are compound curved so they must be stamped somehow.

http://vts.bc.ca/img/grum1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-07-2003).]

Ragarsed Raglan
10-08-2003, 11:41 AM
Hey Evan,

Looks like its needs another polish! All I can see is grass growing on it!!!!!

Thistle: Same designer was (ir)responsible for both the Villiers and the Seagull motors!

After the demise of the Norton Villiers Triumph Motorcycle group Bert Hopwood indulged in the Seagull business again. He finished up patenting a stepped piston / supercharged 2 stroke that was powerful in its day.

RR

Evan
10-08-2003, 12:15 PM
Yeah, it's a stealth canoe. At some angles in the water you can't really see it.

thistle
10-08-2003, 04:22 PM
evan- that is totally amazing -i am going to have to get that canoe and start polishing .


rr any idea what bike went with the villiers motor?

that the seagulls and the villiers are still around ,and the case of the seagull still being used is quite something,he must have known athing or two

Thrud
10-09-2003, 04:53 PM
thistle:
You understand correctly.

Peter S
10-10-2003, 06:00 AM
Thistle,

Here is some Villiers history, you will find photo of a similar engine.

http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Engineering/Villiers/Villiers.htm

http://www.lortim.demon.co.uk/

Villiers were used in quite a few bikes, here are some;

Cotton, Dot, Francis Barnett, Greeves, James, were all well known.

In the 1950's, Villiers were the worlds largest producer of proprietary motorcycle engines, and by 1964, Villiers had produced one million motorcycle engines and two million industrial engines.

Villiers and Seagull were part of life here in NZ. Villiers were the engines I grew up with, learning how to fix etc.for example we had a Mk 20 on a saw bench, a MK 15 (ohv) on a lawn mower, a MK 12 on another mower and a little 98cc on an Atco mower for mowing the tennis court. Still got them all except the saw bench.

My brother has a "Gnat", a three-wheeled farm vehicle very popular here in the 1970's, it has a Villiers with built-in electric start. For reverse, the motor is stopped and the key turned the opposite way and the motor re-starts in the opposite direction - 4 gears forward and reverse.

Now their place in NZ has been taken by Honda, Robin etc, though I believe Villiers engines may still be made in India, as are some of the old Lister diesels.

The Villiers flywheel magneto was famous, it appeared after WW1.

RR,
I always thought the Seagull looked similar to a Villiers two stroke, especially around the flywheel.
Do you know if Seagull is still going? There was a specialist Seagull shop here in Auckland about 10 years ago, not sure if still around.

Ragarsed Raglan
10-10-2003, 10:57 AM
Well done Peter, beat me to the list of bikes. Though the list goes on and on, with more obscure makes such as Coventry Eagle, Coventry Victor (who then went on to make their own engine and sell as a propietary unit... this company had strong links eventually with Coventry Climax), Excelsior (probably not so obscure!), OK Supreme, ...

I think there is a closer connection between Seagull and Villiers than is generally realised. I once heard, or read, that Seagull was started by some 'ex' and some 'not-so-ex' employees of Villiers. It wouldn't surprise me to find that some older engine drawings, patterns, as well as forging equipment wasn't passed down to Seagull from Villiers.

Seagull are still in operation in the Southampton/Portsmouth area. Spares are available. They are still quite popular in the UK (you don't need to sign up to a gym for exercise classes with a Seagull!), and my colleague at work has 3 in his fathers shed!!

RR

thistle
10-10-2003, 03:55 PM
thanks for the info. on villiers.

here is what they are used for (seagulls)

http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b3201a30a4e7
and

http://risr.01.free.bm/


the New Zealanders seem to be the only others capable of having a seagull race!

[This message has been edited by thistle (edited 10-10-2003).]

kenc
10-10-2003, 04:52 PM
I had a Villiers 197 on a Panther. Panther were more famous for their 600 and 650 4 stroke "sloper" singles (my Dad had one of each). My Panther also had Earles type front forks - they were not particularly good mind.
Irrelevant, but maybe someone cares!
Ken

kenc
10-10-2003, 04:53 PM
Just remembered the reg too - WTR79
Probably worth a few bob nowadays. The TR suffix was from the Southampton area (as am I) - don't remember Seagull though......

Ragarsed Raglan
10-13-2003, 02:06 PM
kenc,

How on this earth could I forget the Panther! The 'slopers' were favourite bikes for the sidecar fraternity (when was the last time I saw a motorcycle and sidecar combination being ridden on the road?). Made in Cleckheaton, Yorkshire.

WTR 79 would have been a valuable number until the government over here did the dirty trick of hijacking all the old numbers unless you filled in a SORN form (SORN = Statutory Off Road Notification). So if this was in the shed and untaxed, and you didn't go out and get the SORN form ~ well sorry mate but it is no more, belongs to Mr. Blair to sell for the benefit of UK Ltd. To Quote Thrud " But I'm not angry..."

RR

kenc
10-13-2003, 05:36 PM
Raggy,
Unfortunately WTR79 is long gone! I moved to California in 1983, and gave the bike to a friend who cursed it (and me)to high heaven
for years after.
Who else used the 9E Villers? Hmm, Francis Barnett, James, Greeves and a dozen others.
I do remember the kid across the street had a Villiers 350 twin - sounded nice, I can't remember the make though.
I also remember this long haired twonk in the public garages in the back of our house trying to start a Panther 650 sloper. He was kicking for about 15 minutes until the Panther decided to kick back. I don't remember if it actually broke his leg but he was out of commision for a long time after it threw him over the handlebars.
I kept telling him that the timing was allw rong but did he listen?

kenc
10-13-2003, 05:38 PM
Oh and yes about the sidecars. My Dad swore by them (Panthers). He replaced his 600 Panther with a BSA Gold Flash 650 twin. He said that the Panther was a far better sidecar hauler. It got about twice the mpg to boot.

But there's progress......

thistle
10-16-2003, 08:33 AM
R R finally got to the bolts -

im looking for-

5/16 x 22 bsf 1 1/4 " hex head

5/16 x 22 bsf 2 " hex head

1/4 x 26 bsf 1 1/2 " hex head with nuts

there are smaller machine screws there as well but i need to get them out.

part of the problem of figuring out what i need is that is that some of the origanal screws bolts have been pulled and a nf boltput back in which will go in so many turns and stop.

bush mechanics .

Ragarsed Raglan
10-16-2003, 08:46 AM
Thistle,

Sent you an email

RR