R8 tool stuck in spindle! [Archive] - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS

MTNGUN

12-26-2009, 10:17 PM

Have You tried supporting the the end of the spindle with a piece of hardwood against the table, and then with the drawbar loosend a few turns rap the top of the drawbar with a heavy(8-10lb.) hammer? Not like Your'e trying to drive it into the floor, but a good firm smack.
+1

I'm guessing your spindle has a tiny key or button that acts as a key -- most R8 collets have a petite keyway. If your mill has the little key, and if you installed the collet with the keyway misaligned with the key, and tightened it up that way, that would explain why it is now stuck.

Dunno why they put the key in there, it isn't necessary and only causes problems -- speaking as someone who has been there, done that (and used a rubber deadblow hammer on the drawbar to knock the stuck collet loose).

Black_Moons

12-26-2009, 10:26 PM

Wait, you can remove R8 tools from the spindle *without* hiting the drawbar? :P
news to me!
(I do actualy recall now my spindle seems to have a drift slot in it...)

JTToner

12-26-2009, 10:42 PM

I forgot to mention, the mill is a very old, (serial #SE-1079), Lagun FT-1. I've had it two years and never had any problems. As for the reason I'm removing the spindle is that I'll probably have to have the tool pressed out. I've gone far beyond common sense it tapping on the draw bar. I tried supporting the bottom of the spindle on aluminum blocks leaving clearance for the R8 tool to pass out, then with much more force than I'll admit to, I "tapped" on the draw bar with an 8# hammer - nothing. What's weird is that I can spin the tool while the spindle is stationary.

Johnny

doctor demo

12-26-2009, 11:40 PM

, I "tapped" on the draw bar with an 8# hammer - nothing. What's weird is that I can spin the tool while the spindle is stationary.

Johnny
O K , tighten the tool back up in the spindle and cut it off flush with the end of the spindle. Center drill and then drill it out by putting the drill in the vise sharp end up. You might need cobalt or carbide depending on how tough the tool shank is.

Steve

Mcruff

12-26-2009, 11:44 PM

Mcruff

12-26-2009, 11:46 PM

O K , tighten the tool back up in the spindle and cut it off flush with the end of the spindle. Center drill and then drill it out by putting the drill in the vise sharp end up. You might need cobalt or carbide depending on how tough the tool shank is.

Steve

This is a horrible idea!!!
Please, please do not do this.

38_Cal

12-27-2009, 12:02 AM

As I understand it, an R8 device is spinning in the spindle when you're trying to remove it. Can you spot weld (ting/mig/whatever) a piece of CRS to the end of the R8 whatever it is, and clamp that in your vise to keep it from rotating while you loosen your drawbar? Normally, the taper in an R8 spindle will keep a tool/collet from rotating while you loosen the drawbar, and the keyway on the R8 shank is mainly there as a locating device, not an anti-rotation device. At this point, the R8 collet, or whatever it is, is sacrificial compared to a major teardown/meltdown of your mill's head!

David

doctor demo

12-27-2009, 12:09 AM

That quill is held in on top of the machine and thru the handle feed and gear that is behind it. The quill stop, screw and such are not what actually holds it in the machine. As far as tapping the R8 tool out, loosen the drawbar about 1-2 full turns then take a bronze/brass hammer and wack the crap out of the top of the drawbar.
If the tool is stuck in the spindle and he has allready beat the crap out of it and the tool will not come out but it turns freely ,why would it be a bad idea to drill out the tool from the spindle?

Steve

MichaelP

12-27-2009, 01:35 AM

Does the tool rotate 360 degree inside the spindle or just wobbles a bit?
Did you try to rotate the tool a bit between each blow of the hummer?

Peter.

12-27-2009, 03:21 AM

Sounds like the thread of the drawbar has seized in the collet.

darryl

12-27-2009, 03:25 AM

What you're suggesting Peter is that the drawbar can't come out, and he's just banging on the top of the spindle when he wacks the drawbar?

Peter.

12-27-2009, 03:32 AM

Yes, I can't think of any reason why a collet could spin but not fall out other than that.

darryl

12-27-2009, 03:46 AM

If that's true, he needs to reef the drawbar upwards while turning it out- maybe some threads will catch and help it out.

On the other hand, if the drawbar can come completely out, maybe there's a way to insert a solid rod or tube of larger diameter to 'persuade' with. Maybe a grasp can be made at the top of the spindle somehow and a bolt can be threaded downwards onto the rod. That would certainly beat pounding on it with a hammer. You still could pound on the bolt head after it's tightened as much as you dare, for that extra bit of impact.

Trying to imagine what's in there and what would happen if you overcame the strength of that piece that's jamming the tool- not regarding the tool so much, but would you damage the spindle- I guess that's pretty much an unknown at this point.

ptjw7uk

12-27-2009, 03:54 AM

in post one he says the draw bar is out!!

Peter

Peter.

12-27-2009, 03:57 AM

In this situation I think I'd cover the bed of the mill and weld something to the R8 adapter to hold it then use a breaker bar to either unscrew the drawbar or snap it off.

John Stevenson

12-27-2009, 06:35 AM

In the first post Johnny says he has no key fitted and the tool is a one piece assembly, he also says he's got the drawbar out.

However to tool is free to spin but not come out which is unusual.

All I can see is that the tool has spun at some point whist running and has scoured probably the top diameter up with concentric ridges and it's these that won't allow the tool to drop.

If it was on the taper chances are they would release as it dropped.

If this is the case then I'm afraid only brute force will remove it. Thinking logically if you remove the spindle to press it out you have no support and the press will be acting on a long thin rod with little chance to exert all it's force.

If this were me I machine a top hatted steel cup to go over the end of the spindle [ may have to slice the large part of the tool off with a grinder if it's larger but it's scrap anyway ] with a recess to allow the tool to move at least the length of the parallel part.

Drill into the centre of the tool as Steve suggested say 7/16" and tap 1/2" UNF using tooling in the vise.

Then with a HT bolt try to extract the tool from the spindle.

This way everything is supported, no undue forces are transmitted to the bearings etc and chances are the spindle may be recoverable if the tram lines are polished out.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/crapR8.jpg

Ze Vurks Drawink.

.

boslab

12-27-2009, 06:55 AM

grind a dent in the tool, round tube over it with a cross hole, ball bearing or round bar as cotter, chuck removal wedges [fox folding wedges, one each side] tap tap tap with 2 hammers.
just thinking how i'd pull it
mark

Your Old Dog

12-27-2009, 07:06 AM

If all else fails:

Cut a slot opposite one of the 3 slots on the end of the R8 holder so that a large screwdriver blade can keep the holder from spinning while you turn the nut. A Dremel type tool with a cutoff wheel would cut the slot"s" for you in about 1 minute.

Wait, you can remove R8 tools from the spindle *without* hiting the drawbar? :P
news to me!
(I do actualy recall now my spindle seems to have a drift slot in it...)

I lightly tap mine with the same wrench I loosen it with. Just enough to jar it loose.

I'm not sure that a BF'ingH is the right answer :D

John Stevenson

12-27-2009, 07:13 AM

DougA

12-27-2009, 07:19 AM

John Stevenson seems to have the big picture here. I like his method. I do a lot of pulling parts off machines I repair and his diagram is the way I would go about it. You can put a lot of pulling pressure on the tool this way and overcome the strength of whatever is holding it in there. You may want to consider a fine thread bolt for maximum pressure.

Evan

12-27-2009, 07:28 AM

John Stevenson

12-27-2009, 07:40 AM

Put the drawbar back in all the way. Cut a piece of broomstick to reach the ceiling with whatever you need on the end to protect the ceiling (flat piece of wood?) and just long enough to stop the drawbar winding back out. Then try winding it out with it stopped from removing itself.
Interesting reply but I can't see a bit of wood supporting much pressure.

However the concept is interesting, can a Lagun head spin 180 degrees to allow the drawbar to bear against the bed and do the same as Evan has said ?

Never used or owned one so don't know, I know a Bridgy can.

It would be the reverse method to what I posted.

.

Evan

12-27-2009, 08:12 AM

Looks to me like it will turn upside down. That's the way to go next then.

Carld

12-27-2009, 10:05 AM

In post #6 he admits to having beat it unmercifully trying to get the tool out. I suspect something has fallen in or was in the hole where the R8 is and has it locked in. If the R8 had galled in the bore I don't think it would spin. Perhaps the R8 has broken and part of it has it locked in the bore.

If it were mine I would remove the quill and remove the spindle and get closer to the problem.

There is a manual for sale on the internet at http://www.ozarkwoodworker.com/item/lagun-turret-vertical-milling-machine-opparts-manu/?gclid=CK-F2Y7_9p4CF and I am sure there are others for sale.

JMS6449

12-27-2009, 10:49 AM

it is obvious that the majority cannot read and comprehend.

(1) Solid tool holder is spinning in spindle with drawbar removed.

(2) BFH on drawbar does not move spinning toolholder.

Is the problem obvious to all at this time. (there are a few exceptions)

Try to support the spindle against the table, and use the largest bar possible
throught the drawbar hole. Again use the EBFH and don't be scared, you have supported the spindle.
At this point, as long as the taper is not damaged all will be well. Normally, if the drawbar is sufficiently tightened this will not have happened.

There are provisions in every R8 spindle for a key. On the typical spindle, remove the threaded bearing retainer/shield and you will have access to the threaded hole to insert the dogpoint screw.

I generally bite my tongue but this was a cluster----.

John Stevenson

12-27-2009, 10:57 AM

Carld

12-27-2009, 10:58 AM

JMS6449, it's quite obvious to me what he said but I still say to continue to beat the hell out of the R8 tool will only end up with destruction of the spindle, the bearings and some other parts.

While I do like hammers and chisels I do know when to quit beating on something and get to the real problem without further damage.

Did you not read his text in post #6? If not go read it.

12-27-2009, 11:01 AM

I don't think people are reading the first post correctly.
It's not a collet or end mill holder but a one piece tool. The problem isn't the tool turning whilst trying to tighten or loosen but when the drawbar is out and nothing holding it the tool won't release from the spindle but can spin.
No key fitted.

John has summarized the situation as we've been told. But, I suspect some bit of information has been left out and I'm not sure what that is.

What I would like to to know, is there there any noticeable resistance to the tool spinning freely in the spindle when moderate downward pressure is applied on the drawbar? This would help to determine if there's still a connection of the drawbar end of the tool to the part protruding from the end of the spindle.

Also, exactly what is the tool in the spindle?

John Stevenson

12-27-2009, 11:11 AM

Now I don't know anything about Lagun mills but suspect they are very close to a Bridgy knock off [ no disrespect either way ]
The drawbar on a Bridgy is standard at 7/16" diameter with a 7/16" x 20 UNF thread on and this is common across 99% of R8 tooling.

However, and this is on a Bridgy the maximum bar size that can go down the spindle is 12 mm, 1/2" will not go down.

So to use a bar as a drift you are limited to 12mm [ 0.472" ] which is sitting on a small land of material on top of the tool as it has been drilled 13 /32" [ 0.406" ] for the infernal 7/16" UNF thread, so you have a very thin ring of material and if it's tight all that will happen is that the bar will get hammered into the thread and expand the parallel part of the tool making it even worse.

.

DougA

12-27-2009, 11:31 AM

So to use a bar as a drift you are limited to 12mm [ 0.472" ] which is sitting on a small land of material on top of the tool as it has been drilled 13 /32" [ 0.406" ] for the infernal 7/16" UNF thread, so you have a very thin ring of material and if it's tight all that will happen is that the bar will get hammered into the thread and expand the parallel part of the tool making it even worse.

I think this has already happened and likely what is holding the tooling in.

Carld

12-27-2009, 11:50 AM

Fella's, he said in post #6 that he has beat the hell out of it already and it won't come out. He can beat the hell out of it until the spindle falls out of the quill and it still won't come out.

If you will be so kind as to look at the link I posted you will see it is very much like a BridgePort and even the parts breakdown in the background supports that.

Please quit telling him to beat the hell out of it and tell him how to fix it.

Abner

12-27-2009, 12:08 PM

MichaelP

12-27-2009, 12:55 PM

If the end of an R8 taper is mushroomed, it's not going to permit free spinning while preventing removal. At the same time, it is not going to be a major obstacle to removal either since we deal with the narrow end of a taper. As for the problem with the diameter/mushrooming, instead of using a wider knock-out bar, one might resort to a smaller one that would slip inside the threaded hole of the tool without engaging the thread. Let's say, 5/16". And instead of hammering, a bearing/ gear puller can be rigged to this somehow.

There is one more approach (although a tricky one) that can be tried (if the tool rotates freely now): hold the tool in the vise and turn the mill ON on low (maybe, reverse) speed. This may help freeing the tool. Non-violent raising of the quill during rotation may help too. Of course, provisions must be made to assure that the tool is held concentric to the spindle, and that it doesn't damage the jaws of the vise. If the tool doesn't really rotate fleely now, you might try using the tool with only a partially engaged drawbar to mill something on low rpm... That's what I would, probably, try at this point (although knowing the type and size of the tool would be very helpful). Just be careful!

P.S. I must admit that the description of the problem sounds very unusual and the possible causes are unclear to me. Rotation of taper yet inability to remove it....H-mmm. In any case, I'm afraid that the spindle bore will not look pristine after the tool is removed.

Boucher

12-27-2009, 01:27 PM

This is a very interesting thread to read. It is amazing to me the people that offer suggestions without even really reading what the op has told them. In summary, If the tool can be drilled and tapped John's Top Hat type puller is the best way to proceed. It has the best chance to succede and no more steps backward. I have used the big hammer approach and know first hand that it often is counter productive.

John Stevenson

12-27-2009, 01:40 PM

aboard_epsilon

12-27-2009, 01:45 PM

build pack under knee

turn the head upside down ..put a steel bar in the hole

put a bottle jack on the table pushing on steel bar

and try pushing it out ..i would be careful though..

all the best.markj

MichaelP

12-27-2009, 01:57 PM

That end of an R8 isn't tapered but parallel.
You're right, John. Thank you for pointing this out.

Rustybolt

12-27-2009, 02:07 PM

From the way it's being described either way you're going to have to remove the spindle.
Johns way of jacking it out with screw looks like the least invasive.

doctor demo

12-27-2009, 02:14 PM

If he has mushroomed the draw bar end of the tool. I don't see how he won't have to take the quill out. Chuck it in a lathe and grind, drill, and or bore out the tool, repair or replace the quill bore.

i'm not sure why He would be better off removing the quill. Anything that can be done on a lathe (in this situ) can be done in place providing the mill has not been beat up to bad to use to this point.
The drill,tap and pull method described by J.S. may work very well in this case if the tool is not to hard to keep it from being tap resistant. The last thing that the OP needs is a broken tap stuck in there to deal with.

Steve

darryl

12-27-2009, 02:52 PM

Ok, I'll admit to being a dumbass. I can't read. I did re-read the first post last night, and didn't see the part where the drawbar was out. I read it again a few moments ago and again didn't see it. Then finally I saw the short phrase where he said it was out. Duh! I wonder if I would qualify to go back to grade one again-

Anyway, after looking at this whole thing again, it appear that John has the right idea. The only thing I might add is to shoot some lube down the top to hopefully make the extraction easier. You still have the option of whacking the top of the tool with the largest rod that will fit down the hole, if the bolt is tightened and it's still not budging. If there's a bushing or something at the top of the spindle to center the drawbar, it would have to be removed in order to get a larger diameter rod down the bore. If you can't manage to get a larger opening there, then you can't assist the bolt and tophat method by adding some impact force with a rod from above. If you can though, you can still support the tophat from below and lessen the impact on the bearings as you hammer.

Use some lube on the bolt threads as well. It's obviously very hard to remove that tool, so the forces are going to be high anyway. Might as well help it out the best you can. And I do have to agree- it's not going to help anything to take the spindle out, unless you're forced to go to a press with it.

boslab

12-27-2009, 04:24 PM

how about this [ ive done somthing similar], slug of rod, with o rings, sliding fit in spindle barrel, grease it up tap end of spindle bore for a grease fitting, bsp reducer etc, slide slug of rod into bore, screw on the grease fitting and assuming there arent any holes in the spindle hook on grease gun and pump, according to my pressure guage you get about 9000 psi in a grease gun, enough to snap a catarpillar track if its worn [dont ask!] pump the slug down the bore, very little should stop its progress, kind of a little iron pig.
ok you can dismiss it if you want.
regards
mark

Carld

12-27-2009, 05:17 PM

Doesn't anyone but me see the error of beating or pressing on the quill and spindle? I just can't believe what eveyone is suggesting and your machinists, not blacksmiths or chisel and hammer mechanics, or are you?

It seems like everyone is intent on suggesting he destroy the quill and spindle to get a R8 tool out that is or may be damaged beyond use already.

What is the advantage of destroying the spindle by pressing or beating on it.

I still say take it apart before destroying it.

BobWarfield

12-27-2009, 05:24 PM

It had been suggested to support the end of the spindle before beating on it. Failure to do so will kill the bearings if you use a big hammer or press.

The symptoms are identical to having a very marginal key, FWIW. Been there, seen that. I understand the OP says he has no key. But perhaps envisioning a blockage like the small key is helpful. Frankly, this will have a happier ending if it turns out there was a key there all the time.

If it were a key, to get past the key is a matter of gently rotating the R8 tool until you can feel the key engage the slot.

If there is a burr because the tooling spun in the taper, maybe you can use the same technique. I can tell you from experience that it can be very very hard to feel the exact right point of engagement if the key or burr is barely engaging.

Now, once you do get it out, you may yet have to disassemble that spindle, whether to remove the errant key, or refinish the taper to get rid of the burr.

Again, I am hoping it actually is a key!

I am also wondering what the tooling was. A big face mill or big twist drill would exert the kind of force that might bend a key or spin the taper.

Cheers,

BW

PS, it's just darned hard for me to imagine how it disengages enough to spin, but not to release. How far will it slide down? As was mentioned, the upper part of an R8 is parallel. A burr there should wedge it securely so it can't spin. I suppose a bur on the lower tapered part would act more like the key, but then can you withdraw it the length of the middle smaller diameter part of the R8? More information, si vous plaiz.

Abner

12-27-2009, 05:30 PM

Cheap Jon

12-27-2009, 05:44 PM

If you put presure on it from above will it stop turning, if after hitting hard on the draw bar is it still free. I would take a rod and turn a shoulder on it, put it down on the tool, block the spindel up on the table and then hit the rod hard. If you can measure it after a hit it would tell you if it moved.A person can develop a feel for this sort of thing and tell if its going good or not.

Jon

darryl

12-27-2009, 05:55 PM

Maybe it's time to hear from Johnny again-

Arcane

12-27-2009, 05:57 PM

OK I just went to the shop and stuck my finger in the quill hole. The bore on mine is smooth except for a slight reduction that would coincide with the threaded end of an r-8 --- there is nothing that "should" provide a place to hang up, or some object to sit.
My mill has a (turned down at the point) "set screw" that acts as the key to keep the collet from spinning in the quill. Could what he have had happen with enough vibration is the set screw come out enough to catch?
If he rotates the spindle there is a hole in the quill that gives access to it.
What else could it be?

I just checked my BP clone and the spindle is the same as you describe yours to be. I think it's highly likely that you have hit on the exact cause of JTToner's trouble and even though he said his mill doesn't have a key for collets, it would certainly be worth the effort to make sure the little key is not the culprit! Possible the previous owner backed it out enough to clear any R-8 tooling without removing it totally and it finally worked it's way back in.

Carld

12-27-2009, 06:01 PM

That was my thoughts long ago, he has something besides the R8 that is stuck in the bore. Part of the long lost key or part of the R8 is anyones guess.

MTNGUN

12-27-2009, 06:26 PM

I just checked my BP clone and the spindle is the same as you describe yours to be. I think it's highly likely that you have hit on the exact cause of JTToner's trouble and even though he said his mill doesn't have a key for collets, it would certainly be worth the effort to make sure the little key is not the culprit! Possible the previous owner backed it out enough to clear any R-8 tooling without removing it totally and it finally worked it's way back in.
That was my thought when I suggested the key.

When MY stuck collet/tool event happened, I too, said there was no key, because I was too ignorant to realize that there actually was a key doodad. I had been using the mill all that time without realizing it had a key. Duh.

When I said I tapped my stuck collet/tool out, I meant with a ordinary rubber deadblow hammer, and it only took a few solid smacks. No heavy sledgehammers involved.

But, let's hear what else the OP has to say and hope that he has made progress and that we haven't scared him off with all our shouting and finger pointing. :o

Arcane

12-27-2009, 06:33 PM

OOPS! Sorry, MTNGUN! You originally brought it up and I certainly should have given credit where credit is due! :o

Black_Moons

12-27-2009, 07:16 PM

Poor guy. I hope you manage to resolve this without damageing your spindle. I cringe just at the thought of this happening..

Paul Alciatore

12-27-2009, 08:28 PM

OK, force has been tried. The bigger hammer thing and it didn't work. That surprises me. It is entirely possible that the spindle, the tool, or even both are scrap at this point. I don't understand how an R8 could spin in the spindle but not come out, but something must be holding it.

Before trying force again, I would first attempt to disassemble the spindle from the machine just to see is I could spot anything.

Next, I would try using heat and cold. I would support the spindle with the tool hanging down. Then heat the spindle as hot as I could and hit the tool with freeze spray. Use a whole can to get it as cold as possible as fast as possible. This may allow the tool to drop out. You might even give the tool an additional wack immediately after using the freeze spray and before the spindle has a chance to cool down.

You can get freeze spray at an electronics parts store or use a can of dusting spray that is turned upside down. Freeze spray and dusting spray use the same kind of gas, just a matter of where the tube reaches to on the inside, bottom for liquid = freeze spray and top for gas = duster. Turn either one upside down and you get the other one.

This may not work, but it is far less destructive than other ideas presented. And if it does not work, you can drill it out afterwards.

Mcruff

12-27-2009, 09:05 PM

I have to ask this, have any of you ever seen a spindle out of a mill like this? Your not gonna see squat as the thing will still be sealed up just like it is in the machine. I have taken these spindles out more than a dozen times over the years for various reasons. The spindle is a steel tube that has the taper on the inside and the top tube all as one piece, you still won't be able to see anything other than the key which you should be able to see with a mirror and flashlight now. There is some piece of info that is not being told here. I have run these types of mills for 28 years now including the Lagun he mentioned for 5 years and have never even heard of the problem he is having. There should be absolutely nothing that could hold it up other than the key and a couple of good wacks with a bronze hammer should have peeled that thing out in short order with little or no damage to the spindle.

MichaelP

12-27-2009, 10:00 PM

Considering the suspicious absence of the OP, I started thinking that the whole thread was a rehearsal for the 1st of April...:p

doctor demo

12-27-2009, 10:05 PM

I have to ask this, have any of you ever seen a spindle out of a mill like this? Your not gonna see squat as the thing will still be sealed up just like it is in the machine.

There should be absolutely nothing that could hold it up other than the key and a couple of good wacks with a bronze hammer should have peeled that thing out in short order with little or no damage to the spindle.

Yes I have seen more than one spindle from more than one brand or size of machine, and as far as leaving the machine together ....I agree.

I also agree that there should nothing left holding the tool in the spindle after all the wacking .

So now I have to ask, based on what We do know what would You do...and why not drill it /bore the majority of the tool from the spindle?

Steve

Carld

12-27-2009, 10:29 PM

Well, I certainly would not want any of ya'll "fixing" my mill if you still want to hammer it out.

I am beginning to think like MichaelP, this all may be a hoax.

12-27-2009, 11:01 PM

The OP needs a bore scope. The slits in the collet will allow some visibility of that section of the inside of the quill, and a peek down the drawbolt hole will show the rest.

If there was a grub there to keep the R8 collet from spinning, and if it were one with a loose tip on it to keep the screw from winding into the collet, and if that loose tip came loose, it could jam the works.

Another thought is air hose useage forced a loose chip up into the works and it's now wedged in place.

Or - the drawbolt is a two-part affair and part one unscrewed from part two which is firmly screwed onto the collet. Screwing part one back into part two will allow unscrewing part two from the collet. The lesson here being never let the two parts come apart. All this is pure swag on my part. of course.

Finally, because I love a good conspiracy, some pissed off somebody wound a piece of wire into the grub screw hole and there it sits, jamming up the works.

doctor demo

12-27-2009, 11:09 PM

The OP needs a bore scope. The slits in the collet will allow some visibility of that section of the inside of the quill, and a peek down the drawbolt hole will show the rest.

All this is pure swag on my part. of course.

Finally, because I love a good conspiracy, some pissed off somebody wound a piece of wire into the grub screw hole and there it sits, jamming up the works.
Dennis, it aint no collet so there aren't any slits based on the OP.

Steve

12-28-2009, 01:06 AM

Dennis, it aint no collet so there aren't any slits based on the OP.

Steve

Sure enough - said so in #1. I hate when a good conspiracy theory tanks like that :)

John Stevenson

12-28-2009, 06:12 AM

OK last ditch stand on this because I don't see why we should do all the work whist the OP can't even be bothered to get off his arse and reply or do something, he's posted on other subjects since then.

The OP says no key but what if like some machinery it's a two piece key or double grub screw, key has been removed but left the first key / screw in position and it's now worked its way in a bit, spun the tool and now got a concentric groove to allow the tool to spin but not drop out.

Personally I would have thought that belting it would have allowed the tool to come out somewhat given the key is only a small item but perhaps we aren't being told everything.

As I say no return input from the OP which is bad manners in my book.

.

Carld

12-28-2009, 08:42 AM

I still think this is a sham thread but I will offer a suggestion I have thought about near the beginning of this bogus thread.

If you lay the head on its side, that is parallel to the table and turn the spindle by hand and the R8 adapter at the same time you may be able to dislodge what ever is blocking the removal of the R8 adapter. He may still have to disassemble the quill to repair any damage that he has caused.

At some point when beating on something with a hammer and getting no results you have to stop and think, what am I accomplishing. It's time to walk away and consider every alternative you can dream up.

I have been accused of enjoying hammering on stuff but I have learned when to quit and do something else.

garagemark

12-28-2009, 09:05 AM

Wish I had popped popcorn for thisun.

Oh, and there is no solution. You must buy an entirely new machine. And stay away from R-8 tapers. You have a curse.

Carld

12-28-2009, 09:53 AM

What :eek: I thought we all got a bag of popcorn and a beer when we came to this site.:D

I just went and looked at JTToner's posting history and it appears he does own a Lagun mill. It always puzzles me that they will post about a problem and then never return to tell the outcome they had.

vpt

12-28-2009, 10:22 AM

This thread is funny. Not for the OP if things got wrecked. But for the continuous posts of ideas and suggestions when the OP never replies.

12-28-2009, 10:29 AM

This thread is funny. Not for the OP if things got wrecked. But for the continuous posts of ideas and suggestions when the OP never replies.

I usually assume the OP has made some incredibly stupid mistake. Rather than reveal it they quit posting.

John Stevenson

12-28-2009, 11:04 AM

I usually assume the OP has made some incredibly stupid mistake. Rather than reveal it they quit posting.

I have never done that and some days / alternate days, I have world patents on stupid ;)

.

JTToner

12-28-2009, 11:50 AM

Thanks for the veiled insults. Why I haven't replied, probably because I've been in the shop trying to rectify the problem. Was it operator error? I had just removed an ER-40 chuck and replaced it with an American made 1 1/4" indexable mill. That is a one piece unit, no collet or end mill holder. I machined the flats for a few 5/8" "T" bolts then attempted to remove the tool. Always before, after loosening the draw bar a few turns and a couple of taps with the backside of the draw bar wrench, the tool will release. This time it didn't. I tapped with more force - nothing, then violently, still nothing. Finally, I decided I'd remove the spindle and have the tool pressed out or replace the spindle if I had destroyed it. Having never torn down a mill, I relied on the Lagun manual. I was able to get the quill and spindle almost all the way out then it would stop abruptly, as though it was hitting something solid. I noticed that as the quill and spindle got nearly out, but before hitting that solid stop, the back gear selector would move toward the low speed/reverse position. I declined to use force and decided to remove the motor and upper housing and gear box to get a good look at the goings on. I got as far as removing the motor and pulley housing. The motor was pretty heavy for an old guy with a bad heart to lift out, but while you guys were bad-mouthing me, I managed to get it off. By then it was late in the night, time for a much needed shower and some time with the dear wife. Project on hold until next weekend since I do have to work to pay for all this fun. For those who made serious suggestions, I sincerely thank you, to the others, I have less kind words. And yes, I do own a Lagun. If I knew how to post pictures, I would. Just one thing more, if anybody know how to get that spindle out, please let me know. OTW, I'll just take the head to Lagun and have them rebuild it. That most likely will cost me an arm and a leg.

Thanks again to all who genuinely tried to help, to the others, I hope you had a good laugh.

Johnny

Evan

12-28-2009, 12:50 PM

While it is still fresh in your mind how things go together take plenty of pictures of the parts and how they are oriented so you have something to refer to if it takes a long time before you reassemble the machine. Makes notes using notepad to go along with each picture by it's filename.

madman

12-28-2009, 03:04 PM

Tighten up thre draw bar, snug not overly tight, then back of the drawbar by 3 to 5 turns. Get a chunk of brass (i prefer copper) and wollop the end of th\e draw bar. Then unscrew the drawbar while manually holding the collet. Should be OK. Merry Xmas

JTToner

12-28-2009, 08:51 PM

Guys - thanks for all the ideas. I've pretty much tried everything. Maybe tomorrow a.m. before work I'll give it another good bashing. I do it with the business end of the spindle supported so as not to trash the bearings. BTW, when I got the pulley cover off I found that the bearing at the top of the spindle, just above the pulley, was dry as a mummy and trashed. Fortunately, that will be an easy fix. It still may come down to removing the spindle and having the tool pressed out, hoping the spindle isn't damaged. I don't know what a spindle costs from Lagun, but they charge a small fortune for just the manual.

Also, my apologies for my earlier rant. Even though yesterday was filled with disappointment and frustration, that's no excuse. Everybody has been helpful. Hopefully, after this problem is fixed, I'll learn the cause and share it so that others can avoid it. I almost gave up and considered just buying a chi-com head, The cost, as I recall, approx $3K, but I really want to salvage the original if possible.

Johnny

Carld

12-28-2009, 10:05 PM

:D I am glad your back with some info. Half way through this thread I began to think you were pulling our legs and then I looked at your posting history and saw you mentioned the Lagun a lot. At that point I figured you had other business to tend to since you posted you are a policeman in LA.

I don't have a clue how to get the quill out but I see you bought the manual that I saw on a web site. Perhaps if you study the parts breakdown when you calm down you may see what is holding it in.

As to getting the tool out of the spindle I still think if you roll it around on it's side and tap on it and work the tool around what has it locked in may shift around. My fear is if you press it out it will deform the spindle and make it worthless.

Think about it awhile before you do anything. Call a Lagun dealer and ask how to get the quill out.

Doggie

12-28-2009, 11:47 PM

WOW JTToner, what a trip youve had :D :D :D I guess it's kinda late to chime in here with answers now, sorry. Truth is that I have a Lagun FTV-4, bought new in 86. Never had it apart but I have had several other Laguns and many Bridgeports apart. (the Lagun & brigeport are made the same, just different sizes, metric / american)Please do not "beat" on the spindle any more, OK? You can remove the quill / spindle as a unit. But if you do it will break off 2 little tabs that are on the sheet metal sleeve that slides down with the quill as a cover to prevent chips, dirt,etc from getting into the head when you have the quill cranked down. If you tear the 2 little tabs off you will have to tear the machine almost all the way down to put in a new one, because it is installed from the top..
YOU CAN HOWEVER REMOVE THE SPINDLE FROM THE BOTTOM WITHOUT REMOVING THE QUILL.
To do this, remove the drawbar, then, on the bottom of the quill there is large round nut that holds the spindle in the quill by screwing into the quill and resting or pushing against the outer spindle bearing races. This nut is smoth, round, smaller than the quill, painted black whereas the quill is chromed. BEFORE YOU TRY TO UNSCREW THIS NUT (right hand thread) there will be a small set screw, at the back of the quill, at the bottom of the quill, that locks the big nut in place and prevents it from unscrewing. After removing the set screw, you will probably notice that the big nut is lose, but will not unscrew because the threads around the set screw hole in the quill and the threads on the big nut are also buggered up. To remedy this problem tru screwing tighter / looser while TAPPING with a small hammer to try to cottect the thread problem. You can bang sideways, all the way around the big nut, up, down, all around, while unscrewing / screwing, etc. You will have to do this till the big nut will unscrew fairly easily. If you unscrew the big nut without correcting the buggered up threads, the big nut will tear up the threads in the quill as you crank it out. Got to be fairly easy to unscrew, OK? The Lagun has a spanner wrench hole in the side of the big nut to help with turning. (I always used a piece of drill rod as a wrench). Bridgeports have 2 spanner wrench hoies in the face of the nut. Anyway, after removing the big nut, put a piece of wood dowel down into the drawbar hole, leaving about 6 inches sticking out above the machine. Tap the spindle / bearings assembly out, while holding onto the spindle to prevent it from falling, tap with other hand.......NOTICE, if you have burred or mushroomed out the splined end of the spindle, it will not slide through the drive gear that turns it. This condition should be checked for / remedied after removing the drawbar.
The bearing at the top is a ordnary ball bearing, it just guides / steadies the spindle. The 2 lower bearings are precision, class 7, pre-loaded, angular contact, ball bearings, and are expensive to replace, sold as a set. I shure hope they did survive the adventure they went through. Once the spindle is out, you will be able to see the drive key that everybody is talking about, actually you can see it after you remove the big nut. Anyway i have seen the R-8 holders / collets, etc locked into the spindle to where it was tuff to get them out, never this bad. After you get the spindle out of the quill, you will be able to see what to do. If I remember correctly, that key has a screwdriver slot to screw it in and the spindle had a sholder to prevent it from going to deep, or screwing through. If the worst, you could bore the tool out of the spindle on a lathe.
KEEP US POSTED AS TO WHAT YOU FOUND, OK???

I am wondering how this one happened, never heard of this particular situation before....... Yuor friend, Doggie :p

Doggie

12-28-2009, 11:59 PM

Also JTToner, for whatever it's worth. I have the offical Lagun book that came with my model FTV-4. Basically it is just a exploder / parts book. Almost no instructions or adjustment info. If you need any more help let me know.
GOOD LUCK......Your friend, Doggie

Doggie

12-29-2009, 12:28 AM

Something that I forgot to tell you. To check out the 2 ball bearings at the bottom of the spindle. They are the main bearings, the single ball bearing at the top is just a steady / guide bearing. There is no load on this one, and if I remember right it is a sealed one also. The 2 bottom bearings are the main ones. Clean to perfection, and then blow dry (do not let them spin with compressed air) and inspect. If any roughness? Look at the balls and ball raceways. No chips, NO ball shaped dents? These bearings have to be pre-loaded, and extremely smoth if you want to get a smooth finish and be able to bore without chatter
Your friend, Doggie

JTToner

12-29-2009, 11:13 AM

Doggie, thanks. I followed the procedure outlined in my copy of an FT-2 manual (my machine is an FT-1). It said to remove the threaded rod for fine adjust and quill stop, lock the quill feed, remove the draw bar, then unscrew the big nut and insert a rod through the top and tap out the quill/spindle. The big nut was no problem as I was able to use my ER-40 spanner. I unlocked the quill, lowered it a bit and removed the set screw that locates tools in the spindle. I t was sheared, but that must have happened long ago because in the nearly two years that I've had the machine, it wasn't functional. Fast fwd, I got the quill/spindle nearly all the way out, far out enough to expose the two main bearings - they appeared to be fine, probably b/c i had the bottom of the spindle supported while abusing it from the top with my BFH. But, the unit would not come all the way out. I made a solid stop, beyond which further downward movement of the quill/spindle would cause the back gear lever to move toward the low/reverse position. My old machine doesn't have a neutral detent. At this point, I reassembled everything (with only one extra part - a small rod, approx 3/4" long x 1/4" dia. with a hole in the center crosswise to the long. axis of the rod. Can't find it in the pictures because I only have a copy and its not too clear).
Anyway, I figured I'd have to get the gear box off, so I removed the motor and the housing that surrounds the pulley and timing belt. That's where I stopped Sunday night.
After reading your post, I see it was unnecessary to deal with the quill - just remove the big nut. Still, at issue is whether the spindle will fully exit. Probably won't be able to get to that till Friday when I have a day off. (Wifey is a little unhappy with me for spending too much time in the shop and not enough time with her watching crap like celebrity news or the latest on the Kardashians. Yuck! Never an action movie:mad:) I've accepted it that I'll likely have to replace the spindle, guessing that'll be approx. $500.00. Hopefully it will be ok.
Bottom line, after removing the big nut and the set screws, I should be able to tap out the spindle, right? Or have I missed something?
Thanks again,
Johnny

JTToner

12-29-2009, 11:17 AM

No, I haven't been bs-ing about the mill, I really have it and I really broke it. Also, not LAPD, but another agency, obviously can't disclose it online but doubters are welcome to visit me at my office. I'm generally there for a few hours in the early afternoon, rest of the time I'm on the street. E-mail me for address and telno jttoner@hotmail.com.

Johnny

Your Old Dog

12-29-2009, 01:15 PM

Sir John, thanks for pointing out that I was all wet and being civil about it to boot :D

I'll apologize to the board for helping turn this thread into a Fluster Kuck. I can see thay some are getting strained already. It more greens boys! :rolleyes:

To the OP. I think Sir Johns got a grasp of your problem and I would think if anyone here could offer up a workable suggestion it would be the Earl of SudsPumpWater!

JTToner

12-29-2009, 07:45 PM

I know I screwed up somehow, just hope I can find out what I did wrong so no one else has to have this problem.
Johnny

spope14

12-29-2009, 10:19 PM

I am going to guess you tried backing off the drawbar.

OK, I have faced this many times before, at least once to twice a year with students. This happens when drawbard are tightened too much, or in some cases when a collett is spun and the keyway gets damaged, or the collett gets really scored in the key area. Three methods for you.

First, if this is a bridgeport, and I believe Lagun has the same set-up you can remove a collar around the bottom of the spindle on the quill using a simple spanner wrench. You need to lower the quill about 1/2 inch, release a set screw, and on the bottom of the quill you will find two holes for the spanner. Unscrew the collar. The quill that has the spindle is now visable, there is a set screw in this area that holds the keyway in place. Takes a 5/32 or 1/8 hex wrench, loosen out the holding set screw. It is small thickness, try not to lose it. Under this is your keyway. Unscrew it out, check for damage. This also opens things up to the keyway on your R-8, kind of a 1/4" little hole. You have a couple if choices here. My favorite is to get the key aligned back to the hole, replace the key, then remove the R-8. You will probably have to remove the key again to fix any buggering after that. The second is to put an allen key into the hole to catch the keyway, then release the drawbar. This is a bit more sketchy, for it can damage your threads in the keyway screw area.

Your mill may have this, maybe not. If a bridgeport, you probably had a stripped out key. The diagrams are available in a Bridgeport or Lagun manual, available on the internet.

Step 2:
OK, is there a tool in it? If so, the tool becomes a loss, but saving the spindle becomes something to save. If there is a tool in the spindle, clamp it up in your vise between brass jaws or brass protecting the jaws and try to loosen the drawbar.

Step 3:
No tool? I have done this before. It will most likely damage your R-8. I have made a piece of metal that will fit into the splits in a collett, just need to wedge in one split, the other end clamped in my mill vise. Think of a screwdriver end on a flat piece of metal, but almost wide enough to sit in the slot. They make a similar item for removal of C-5's on CNC lathes, but you only need one slot engaged. Get the collett wedged on this part, clamp the other end of the piece in your vise and turn out the drawbar.

Your key action is to prevent collett movement. I avoid welding around spindles, and I really hate banging the heck out of spindle areas. Try these things to stop R-8 movement. .

There is

Doggie

12-29-2009, 10:27 PM

Hello JTT, and yes the spindle should come out the bottom of the quill after removing the big nut and drawbar. MAYBE!!!

Come to think of it, all the Lagun drawbars that I have seen are made up of 2 pieces. The 1st piece is the at the top, about 3/4 to 7/8 inches dia and about 8 to 10 inches long. The bottom half is about 7/16 inches dia and about 16 inches long. One end of the 7/16 inch dia part is threaded and screws into the R-8 tool that is in the spindle. The other end of the 7/16 dia rod is supposed to be pressed up into, and cross pinned to the larger 3/4 to 7/8 inch dia X approximately 8 to 10 inch long part. If you pull out the drawbar and all you pull out through the top is the short 3/4 to 7/8 inch dia X 8 to 10 inch long part, there is still the 7/16 dia part still in the machine, and still attached to the tool in the spindle. If you then look down from the top, and into the hole that the drawbar goes in and see the rest of the drawbar, that may be the trouble. Over-all the drawbar should be about 2 feet long. Original Bridgeport drawbars are one piece, after-market are usually the 2 piece style. (from what I have seen)

Anyway, if I remember correctly, the 7/16 part of the drawbar had a hardened "thrust" washer, that rested against the top of the spindle, to keep the larger part of the drawbar from chewing up the top end of the spindle. This washer is big enough diameter to keep you removing the spindle down out of the bottom of the quill. In other words,,, If the bottom part of the drawbar has got the thrust washer captive and the thrust washer is tight against the spindle, there is not a big enough hammer to get the tool out of the spindle because you are pounding against the end of the spindle, not the drawbar.

This may be your problem!!! The drawbar has come apart and what is happining is when you try to unscrew the tool out of the spindle, instead of unscrewing the drawbar out of the tool, just the top part of the drawbar is turning and bottom half is not turning because the cross pin that joins the two together is broken and just the top part is turning, the bottom part is not rotating, or unscrewing out of the tool in the spindle.
THE ENTIRE DRAWBAR WILL HAVE TO COME OUT BEFORE YOU REMOVE THE SPINDLE OUT OF THE BOTTOM OF THE QUILL. ALL OF IT.

Dayaummmmm I wished I could post a picture or drawing to illustrate what i'm saying. A picture is worth a thousand (maybe more in this case) words in showing what I am trying to say. Sorry, me not very good at computers, havent learned how to post attachments very well yet. I have been playing with personal computers and inter-netting a little over 1 1/2 years now. If I think of something else, i'll let you know, OK?

Your friend, Doggie :cool:

Yes, I did think of something else JTT. That drive key that is in the spindle and supposedly drives the tool in the spindle. Leave it out. If worn down smoth and no key is protuding into the R-8 taper area, leave it alone. Whatever you do, don't replace the key.

JTToner

12-29-2009, 10:47 PM

spope14, you've identified what I did wrong - I must've over tightened the drawbar. I find it hard to believe I could've been so stupid. I've been running mills for nearly 10 years without ever having a problem. I began with a chi-com RF31, then three years in school on BP, and nearly 2 years with my Lagun. But, I'm sure I over tightened it. My Lagun seems to have employed a set screw to jam/lock a second one that goes into the slot on R8 tooling, however, mine was long gone before I got the machine. The tool jammed into the spindle is a one piece indexable end mill. It is sufficiently loose that I can spin it,ust can't get it out. If I can get the spindle out, I'll at least be able to buy a replacement. That, of course, would be the worst case scenario. But because the tool will rotate in the spindle but refuses to come out, I fear I've trashed the spindle. Well, like Confucious said - "We get too soon old and too late smart". Thanks for your insight. I'm going to try again tomorrow if I have time before work. Out of curiosity, how does over tightening result in this problem? That might be helpful in fixing the problem.

Johnny

Johnny

12-30-2009, 12:11 AM

My Lagun seems to have employed a set screw to jam/lock a second one that goes into the slot on R8 tooling, however, mine was long gone before I got the machine... But because the tool will rotate in the spindle but refuses to come out, I fear I've trashed the spindle.

Maybe not so. The scenario I suggested was that there was a softer metal foot that worked between the grub and the tool. These are frequently softer than all the other parts and may shear off with no damage to the critical parts. Hopefully so. It does sound like a maintenance item going forward, though, for anyone who has that model mill. Good thread, JT - hope it works out well for you.

darryl

12-30-2009, 03:08 AM

Hmm. That's an interesting possibility, that there may be more than one part to the drawbar, and part has stayed behind, screwed into the tool. Johnny has the drawbar out ( I sort of vaguely recall this :)) so now it's time to look at the drawbar to see if there's evidence that it should have remained pinned to some other part, or not. It should be easy enough to check and see if other R8 tooling would work with the length of drawbar that is, or remains. Screw the drawbar into an
R8 tool and hold that parallel to the spindle- check to see whether it looks right. If it's too short, then yes there must be another piece which got left behind inside the spindle.

One thing keeps nagging at me- how can the tool be able to spin full circle if part of a key is hanging it up- wouldn't that prevent it from spinning, even if it is loose a bit- this lends some support to the idea that a 'top hat' of some kind is left in there holding the tool up. I think it's odd though that a spindle would have a larger diameter opening at the top than at the bottom where the tool goes. That's the only way a 'top hat' would have anything to rest on inside, so I'm kind of doubting that whole idea.

Ok, so the tool is free to spin, and probably bob up and down to some degree. If there's nothing above the tool keeping it up, like a remnant of the drawbar, then there must be a groove in the tool where the offending culprit is lodged into the spindle while the tool can rotate on the protruding end of it. To be that resistant to the deadblows from the BFH, it must be a pretty strong piece.

I find it a little odd as well that with the quill most of the way out, there isn't a spot where you could look in at the spindle inside and find a clue as to the problem. It's sounding to me like there's more length of quill exposed than what would be the height of the R8 tool in the spindle. There should be an opening, and if there is a key of some kind, it, or the area where it should be, should be visible-

Circlip

12-30-2009, 04:11 AM

Darryls two part drawbar seems to be the answer. Before stripping the shaft/quill, can you tilt the head by 90 degrees and push the tool back into the spindle.

Make a "Long" series drill by welding/silver soldering a drill bit of the same diameter as the drawbar shank to a bar also the same diameter as the drawbar shank and drill into the end of the "Tool" shank for a distance.

If there is a "Spigot" still screwed into the tool shank its going to be drilled away and allow the shank to be removed or if there isn't, it's only going to remove the threads from inside the tool shank.

Regards Ian.

Carld

12-30-2009, 08:52 AM

I don't think there is anything in there because he can install the drawbar into the tool thread. He said several times he can screw the drawbar in.

rkepler

12-30-2009, 09:08 AM

The tool jammed into the spindle is a one piece indexable end mill. It is sufficiently loose that I can spin it,ust can't get it out. If I can get the spindle out, I'll at least be able to buy a replacement. That, of course, would be the worst case scenario. But because the tool will rotate in the spindle but refuses to come out, I fear I've trashed the spindle.

If the tool is spinning in the spindle but won't draw out something has to be in there to hold it. If the key had still been in the spindle I'd suggest that the tool jammed in the work and spun the key off, and the piece of key is inside some rebate on the tool shank.

Here's a drawing of the spindle & quill from Lagun:

http://www.kepler-eng.com/images/lagun_r8_spindle.gif

There's really nothing else in there other than the key (#35 & #36). Maybe if we knew the tool brand and could see a picture something else could be suggested. Right now the best suggestion would be to pull the spindle and machine out the tool, but I understand that you're not able to pull the spindle from the quill? Normally you pull the setscrew #21, unscrew the round nut (#21, I think) the spindle comes out after a little heat on the quill end (maybe to the point of boiling water). At least that's what I recall, Lagun would be able to explain the process on the phone.

JTToner

12-30-2009, 10:16 AM

Yes, its a two piece drawbar, but not pinned as is the factory Lagun. This is a chi-com replacement that had the 3/4" hex head screwed in. Only the hex head portion is presently out. I could be wrong, but I believe that eariler in the mess the entire drawbar came out. Won't happen now unless I locktite the hex to the 7/16" shaft. I know, I've tried. And also, I know there was a collar with the drawbar but it had a 7/16" + hole, so it shouldn't impede tool removal, but at this point I wouldn't put a paycheck on anything. Unless advised otherwise, I plan to locktite the hex head to the 7/16" drawbar shaft when I get home tonight. I know I screwed up by over tightening the drawbaw, don't even know why I did it. I might have been angry because my 1" ER-40 collet had been sliping and I took it out on the machine - stupid.
Again, thanks to everybody for all the help. You guys have been amazing.

Johnny.

Circlip

12-30-2009, 10:26 AM

Was going to say to Carld "Which part of the drawbar is coming out" before the picture was printed, but the parts 3 & 4 are a bit fuzzy, but I think you've hit the nail on the head JTT (Ouch, bad pun) in that more parts can't be seen cos you've got a "Modded" draw bar.

Regards Ian.

spope14

12-30-2009, 11:11 AM

Rather than loctite to repair the drawbar, could you put in a set screw and make a small flat (file it, but be aware of filings in the spindle) on the mating part? loctite, as legendary as it is, will twist off with the pressures you are describing. The set screw on a flat may help to a more positive grip.

I still think you could put something in the old keyway hole to lock into the tools keyway, maybe machine up a new keyway set screw and put it in the double jam lock nut area that held the old key.

The spindle diagram shows the same configuration of a bridgeport at the spindle/quill end where the R-8 goes in.

Next question, probably answered it before, but is the tool shank a single diameter on the straight part of the R-8?

I had this happen before where there was a recess between the top and near to the bottom R-8. An old key swedged just enough to keep things from coming out, it swedged higher than the actual keyway hole and created a burr in the taper itself, which is another story.....

If you have been able to get the drawbar out, ir if you can, could you fit a long piece of 7/16 brass in the hole and tap things out? may require turning your mill head 90 degrees...

Overtightening happens to all of us at some point, no need to beat yourself up, and when things work out, I will be glad to hear it.

JTToner

12-30-2009, 12:47 PM

spope14, best I can tell, there's not been a key since I owned the machine, always been able to insert R8 tools without the need to rotate them to fit into the key. The tool that's stuck is an APT indexable 1 1/4" end mill, but I don't remember if the straight part is completely straight or cut back a little. I tried again this a.m. to remove the spindle. The 7/16" part of the drawbar is still in the tool, but the 3/4" hex part is off. Spindle comes out until both bearings are exposed, then stops hard. Additional effort moves the back gear selector lever to the low/reverse position. Why? before I leave for work I am going to tryto locktite the hex to the drawbar rod so I can remove the db. If the locktit doesn't hold, no loss.
Johnny

Carld

12-30-2009, 01:50 PM

JT, according to the photo on a web site the APT R8 milling cutter has a reduced diameter in the middle.

rkepler

12-30-2009, 02:08 PM

sI tried again this a.m. to remove the spindle. The 7/16" part of the drawbar is still in the tool, but the 3/4" hex part is off. Spindle comes out until both bearings are exposed, then stops hard. Additional effort moves the back gear selector lever to the low/reverse position. Why?

When I had to pull my quill/spindle I called Lagun in California and spoke to their techs. They were able to explain things to me and get me going - they faxed the spindle picture that I posted the R8 data from earlier.

Give them a call and they'll be able to walk you though pulling the spindle without breaking anything else. At that point you should be able to pull the tool or machine it out and get the spindle back in operation.

On something like this your most important tool is patience.

JTToner

12-30-2009, 07:15 PM

Great idea, I'll try and get to their shop tomorrow. I have to be in Compton, CA after lunch and their shop in Carson, CA is only a few miles away. Hopefully, they didn't pack it in for the holidays. BTW, in case I don't get online tomorrow, let me just say I hope all had a Very Merry Christmas and I wish you all a happy and prosperous New Year.

Johnny

Doggie

12-30-2009, 07:43 PM

OK now that I have cooled off, Damm I spent a while thinking about describing in easy to understand terms, your possible solution to your problem. Had a long post all typed up, spent several hours on it and then hit the wrong button and BANG!!! there went my post!!! That one pissed me off!!! :mad:

Don't replace the key in the spindle. About 99% of the mills out in the commercial world don't have the key, because you don't need it.

Don't remove the quill! If you must remove the quill take the machine head all the way down. BEFORE REMOVING THE QUILL, take the sheet metal sleeve that is above the quill stop, out of the bore that the quill is in, out the top, BEFORE removing the quill out the bottom. If you remove the quill without removing the sheet metal sleeve out the top it will tear up the sheet metal sleeve up. You will either have to get a new sleeve or do without one.

I have taken several original Bridgeport 1 piece drawbars and because they were stripped or broken, turned them into the 2 piece style. The employer would say "we'll get a new one tomorrow, but we gotta go today, so do what you can to just get us by for now" And they special ordered one right away the next day, HUH? Shure thing, :D

Also, YOU MUST REMOVE THE ENTIRE DRAWBAR (all of it) BEFORE YOU TRY TO REMOVE THE SPINDLE / BEARING ASSY OUT THE BOTTOM OF THE QUILL!!! See all my eariler post, OK?

Type at you later. Your friend, Doggie :cool:

Doggie

12-30-2009, 07:57 PM

Peter.

12-30-2009, 09:43 PM

So the long nut has come off the drawbar? Are you SURE there is not another nut under the long one to act as a locknut? This happened to someone at a place I worked at about 20 yrs ago, two guys spent the best part of a day trying to remove a tool from a spindle with much bashing and swearing until they finally climbed up high enough to see there was a nut left on the drawbar.

JTToner

12-30-2009, 10:40 PM

I was able to remove the 7/16" drawbar rod with locktite generously applied inside the 3/4" hex part. I didn't think it would hold, but it did. Drawbar out, two or three taps and the stuck tool was out. I can't believe the drawbar was the problem, but maybe it was. The 7/16" rod goes inside the tool, so how could it prevent the tool from droping out? Maybe if the 3/4" hex head were still on, but it was off. It seems that I caused the problem by over tightening the tool. Lesson learned. Ultimately, no damage to the machine, none to the tool. I tore down the top of the machine so I could access the db if the locktite failed. All the gears look good, spindle bearings are fine. I need to replace the brake lining and the bearing above the step pulley. So, as a result of all this, the machine will end up in better shape than before.

A couple more questions. The large threaded collar that retains the spindle within the collar has a set screw that meshes with a detent on the quill. Does it set the proper location of the spindle within the quill or is it just to prevent the collar from turning? When the spindle is fully inserted the set screw is about 1/8 turn short of the detent. I guess the question boils down to how deep should the spindle be inserted?

Thanks to everybody for all the help and support. Anybody in the So. Calif. area ever need a hand with something, just shoot me an e-mail. If I can help in any way, I will.

Johnny

kyfho

12-31-2009, 12:07 AM

Glad to hear everything has worked out for you, Johnny.

As an absolute beginner with my BP, I really didn't have any constructive suggestions to offer, but I have been following the thread closely. I try to never pass on an opportunity to learn.

It was actually VERY interesting to see all of the different ideas flying about from this learned crew. Much to absorb.

John Stevenson

12-31-2009, 04:27 AM

This is the problem of dealing with faults via email or telephone without the help of pictures.

You never get the full story.

Post one said drawbar is out so if the drawbar was out the tool would have released.

I'm nor guessing that the drawbar which we are told later is two piece had a larger thread on the top where is screws into the hex nut because if it was 7/16" all the way thru it would have allowed the tool to drop until it hit the bed, or as peter has said it may have a locknut on it, or possibly a screwed collar ?

If Johnny had physically removed the drawbar in the first place, even if only to check the threads he would have seen that he didn't have the whole bar but only the nut.

.

winchman

12-31-2009, 04:55 AM

When I read the original post, my feeling was that it didn't make any sense.

I got curious when the thread continued for ten pages, and see that the problem has been solved.

Unfortunately, the "solution" doesn't make any more sense than the problem did.

Roger

spope14

12-31-2009, 08:12 AM

Yes, line up the set screw with the detent. That way you do NOT have to torque down that collar, nor will it creep out over the years.

tdmidget

12-31-2009, 09:29 AM

It should be pointed out that the phrase "drawbar is out" means that it is out of the machine, on the table where you can see it, inspect it, hold it, taste it, what ever. This quite a bit different from "disengaged" where it is still in the machine but not screwed into the tool.
What a wild goose chase.

rkepler

12-31-2009, 09:41 AM

A couple more questions. The large threaded collar that retains the spindle within the collar has a set screw that meshes with a detent on the quill. Does it set the proper location of the spindle within the quill or is it just to prevent the collar from turning? When the spindle is fully inserted the set screw is about 1/8 turn short of the detent. I guess the question boils down to how deep should the spindle be inserted?

As I understand it the round nut is there to preload the lower bearings, so you want it all the way in to where the setscrew has a clear shot at the divot it fits into on the quill. It was ground to fit them and the quill and should go back in place after removal. If I were you I'd make very sure (with lint free cloths and a well lit inspection) that the quill is clear and clean as well as the bearings. If you're not sure I'd call Lagun and ask them how much tension should be placed on the nut.

rkepler

12-31-2009, 09:51 AM

I was able to remove the 7/16" drawbar rod with locktite generously applied inside the 3/4" hex part. I didn't think it would hold, but it did. Drawbar out, two or three taps and the stuck tool was out. I can't believe the drawbar was the problem, but maybe it was. The 7/16" rod goes inside the tool, so how could it prevent the tool from droping out? Maybe if the 3/4" hex head were still on, but it was off. It seems that I caused the problem by over tightening the tool.

A couple of comments here:

1) In removing the tool you don't want to remove the drawbar, then drop it onto the tool and knock the tool out by banging on the end of the drawbar. Ultimately that will ding up the threads on the tool and/or drawbar and mushroom both. What I've always done was to loosen the drawbar, unscrew it 3-4 threads then strike the top of the drawbar, loosening the tool from the taper. Then I unscrew the drawbar the rest of the way and remove it while keeping the tool from falling out.

2) Some drawbars have a "washer" under the large portion of the drawbar to bear on the top of the spindle. This is so that part of the drawbar doesn't directly bear on the top of the spindle and allows a little more tension on the part. I'd bet that you'll find one of those, and it was that part that was holding the small part of the drawbar in place as well as the tool. (On mine the 'washer' is held in place on the small shaft by and o-ring inside the washer that has a light tension on the 7/16 rod. Clever).

Here's a link to the Dorian Tool drawbar on Enco's server:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=493&PMITEM=891-5906

JTToner

12-31-2009, 10:07 AM

Sir John,

If, in my original post, I stated that the db was out, then it was, in fact, totally, completely, and 100% out - both pieces, the hex nut and the shaft. I went through such a struggle with this that, in truth, I'd lost track of some of my earlier efforts. As it continued, I didn't remember whether or not I had the entire db out and so stated. Lost a few brain cells during a heart surgery. That, plus the ravages of old age, and my memory isn't quit as sharp as it was 50 or 60 years ago. Ultimately, I had just the hex nut/handle part of the db out with the 7/16" shaft buried deep inside the machine and screwed into the stuck tool. Regardless, the tool should've released since the 7/16" shaft will readily pass through the mill, top to bottom. Therefore, even if the shaft were still screwed into the tool and the hex nut out, the tool should've been able to come out. Normally, I would unscrew the db a few turns, tap on it to release the tool, then unscrew the db and the tool would drop out with, perhaps, the nudging of an additional tap or two. This time the tool would release from the spindle to the extent that it could rotate freely, but would not drop more than approx. 3/`6" out of the spindle. I'm at a total loss as to what was restraining the db. "spope14" suggested I'd overtightened to tool and, yes, I recall that I did, in fact, tighten it far, far too much. "sbpope14" mentioned that this had occurred several times with students, so it remains a likely candidate for the root cause of the difficulty. I just have no idea what, mechanically, was going on to impede complete release of the tool.
All's well that ends well, and I was fortunate that I didn't damage the machine. Since I have the top torn down, now's an opportunity to replace the spindle brake which is nearly expired. Also, when I got the machine, it was missing the gear for the left to right tilting of the head. Now would be a good time to pull the head and replace that missing part. Lagun will, no doubt, want a small fortune for it.
Thanks again to you and all others who have been so helpful. Happy New Year to all.
Johnny

Carld

12-31-2009, 11:36 AM

JT, I am glad you got the tool out. I, like you, don't know why the tool would not come out even with the part of the draw bar still in it.

I tried to post only what you had stated in your posts and tried to correct some of what others said. As I said, at first I was skeptical about this thread but after reading your past posts I realized you were for real. We get some hoax threads from time to time and since I am what I call a quadranoid I keep a wary thought about some threads.

I hope we have not been to hard on you and you will stay with us. Everyones knowledge is needed and I hope you can contribute some of your experiences and knowledge.

While it is down you should look real close to see if any part of the original key may have fallen out and locked the tool in the bore.

Have a happy new year JT.

moe1942

12-31-2009, 11:57 AM

Circlip

12-31-2009, 12:09 PM

Now the WHOLE of the drawbar is out, a picture showing it screwed into the end of the offending tool may explain the problem. No, outside the spindle/quill.:D

Regards Ian.

Black_Moons

12-31-2009, 01:15 PM

Maybe there is something above the tool in your spindle that the drawbar itself hangs up on? that or you just never loosened off the drawbar far enough.. Or like some mentioned, could the drawbar of been two peices and you where only loosening/tightening the top peice?

Carld

12-31-2009, 01:38 PM

I think some of you are reading more into his problem than he has. He said that the part of the drawbar that was still in did not have anything that would hold it in still on it. On top of that, the spacer/washers that I have seen that go on the shaft between the hex part of a drawbar and the spindle sit in a recess in the spindle and in no way can retain the 7/16" shaft of the drawbar if the hex part is removed. The spacer/washer is to take up any excess length of the drawbar so it will not go to far into the R8 collet/tool.

spope14

12-31-2009, 01:51 PM

Circlip

01-01-2010, 04:25 AM

So we can prove Carld's theory by feeding the drawbar in from the R8 end to see how far it goes before stopping???

Regards Ian.

Carld

01-01-2010, 08:20 AM

Why not just drop it in from the top and put your hand on the table to catch it.;)

Here's a thought, go out in the shop and get a 7/16" dia. rod about 12" long, sharpen one end, pull the drawbar out of your mill, lay your hand on the table under the spindle opening, insert the rod in the bore sharp end down and drop it. If you don't think the rod will go through then your hand won't get hurt, but---------:eek:

Of all the mills I have used, and that is quite a few, I have never seen anything on a drawbar that would hold it in the bore IF the hex part at the top were removed by unthreading it or breaking it off the rod. I feel confident you will have a hole in your hand if you try the above experiment.

After some thought I don't think he was hitting the broken part of the drawbar as hard as he thought he was. Once the hex part is removed or broken off there is nothing but friction holding the R8 tool in the bore and sometimes if over torqued it takes a hard solid hit to dislodge the R8 tool.

One shop I worked at had a fellow that had a cutter spin in a collet so he over torqued the drawbars and broke a few doing so. When I had to remove the collet after him I had to use a 1 lb hammer and hit the drawbar very hard to remove the collet. The drawbars were always distorted in that shop. I got my own drawbar to use there and kept it in my tool box.

rkepler

01-01-2010, 10:36 AM

Perhaps it isn't visible in the drawing I posted, but there's a collar on top of the drawbar rod. It rides on the rod and acts something like a thrust collar for the drawbar. Below is a picture of a drawbar from Dorian made to the same pattern:

http://www.kepler-eng.com/images/lagun_drawbar_collar.jpg

(I don't know if the electrical tape below is my 'improvement', I suspect so. The original has an o-ring inside the collar that provides some tension and keeps it from falling when you draw the drawbar out.)

My suspicion is that the upper hex portion of the drawbar came out, leaving the 7/16 stem screwed mostly into the tool. The collar on the top couldn't pass over the threads with the o-ring in the way, so the tool couldn't fall all the way out of the spindle.. If the tool had dropped enough that the top of the drawbar thread was inside the spindle then hammering on the drawbar hex wouldn't have moved the tool further out.

At this point I'd suggest pinning the 2 parts together and putting this behind you. I'd check the length, if it's too long the thread can bottom out in the tool and lock the bottom of the drawbar. If that happens unscrewing it will break one of the threads out first, and it'll only be luck to determine which. Making sure of the length and pinning the top thread will fix that for you.

JTToner

01-01-2010, 11:29 AM

I'll pin the db and hex head as soon as I reassemble the mill. Have to order one bearing from McMaster for the top of the step pulley, no biggie. and yes, there is an O ring to prevent the db collar from dropping out. I don't think that was an issue because with the db as it was, it could be partially screwed into a collet or tool and easily allow that tool to drop early 1", but then the tool was hung up, it would only drop about 1/8". I believe it was "spope14", though I could be wrong, who mentioned he'd experienced this problem several times with students. He might have an explanation. For now, I just want to get the machine back up and running. I was going to replace the clock spring, gear to rotate head, and the front quill feed wheel (mill came without it), but since this summer I'll be moving the machines into a larger facility, I'll wait til then. I might make a front quill feed wheel and replace the clock spring. Having torn down the top of the machine, I'm impressed by the utter simplicity of the BP design.
Johnny

Carld

01-01-2010, 11:42 AM

The spacer sleeves that I have seen on the drawbars are not a tight fit. Some of the replacement bars had the hex pined to the rod and the pin was easy to shear and those were worthless. I had to remove the bars after some heavy handed machinist sheared them so I know that for a fact and I didn't shear them.

Some of the drawbars had a threaded hex like the one JT has and the hex can come off. When it does the spacer comes over the threads easily. He beat on the rod with a punch or something so it should have fell out but as I said it's hard to get a solid hit on the rod like that, I know that from my own experience. I was able to drive it out on the ones I worked on but I sure did have to whack it hard. I prefer the one piece original drawbars but you can locktite the hex on the two piece and be ok.

I did machine maintenance in several of the shops I worked in. I didn't like fixing others screwups but I got paid for it so I fixed stuff.

Anyway, he got it out and it did pass through the top and the spindle along with the R8 milling cutter.

Here is a quote from his last post: "Ultimately, I had just the hex nut/handle part of the db out with the 7/16" shaft buried deep inside the machine and screwed into the stuck tool. Regardless, the tool should've released since the 7/16" shaft will readily pass through the mill, top to bottom. Therefore, even if the shaft were still screwed into the tool and the hex nut out, the tool should've been able to come out."

That confirms what I have said and I know for a fact you have to hit it a lot harder than you want to get it out sometimes. I hate to tell someone to hit it harder when I am not there to see what is going on.

The other issue is, he said the R8 was loose in the bore but would not fall out. To me that is a real good sign there is something trapped in the bore with the R8 tool. There again, not being there I have no way to tell for sure.

It is next to impossible to give safe instructions on a forum to solve a problem, you can only make assumptions and guesses from the info given.

Peter S

01-01-2010, 08:05 PM

Yes, call Lagun regarding the bottom nut to be safe, the big collar nut. This said, any I have removed over the years (my bridgies - 6, and a few for others) have not been torqued, but have been on and actually backed off slightly to allow for the set-screw to go into the detent. I am very interested in this aspect to be sure, for if there is a special torque, I will be waiting to find out and doing this on several machines Monday - thanks for that info and insight, could be very helpful.

spope14,

Having the nose cap backed off slightly to fit the detent does not sound correct to me. (BTW, My BP has no detent)

I am sure this nose cap should be fitted tight against the bearings, it is what holds the outer races of the spindle bearings in place. As the BP manual points out, what is important is to check there is clearance between the nose cap and the quill (.003" suggested) to ensure the nose cap is contacting the bearings, and nothing else.

I don't reckon there is anything you can do here which effects the bearings, except by leaving it loose, or maybe if a gorrilla over tightened it and distorted the quill (the manual warns not to overtighten the nose cap lock screw for this reason, but that is probably because the lock screw is trying to jack the quill out of round).

My BP manual suggests you put a felt pen mark on quill and nose cap before removing it, then re-tighten it to the same position - not very helpful, but probably recognises that most people have no way of torquing it. That is for collet aligning screw replacement, I wouldn't rely on the mark after fitting new bearings.

--------------------

Please correct me if any of the following is bad information:

For anyones interest (no doubt this has been said before), there is nothing you can do in a Bridgeport or its clones to alter (or get wrong) the spindle bearing pre-load, using normal assembly.

(But don't think I am saying changing spindle bearings is fool proof, it isn't, there are other critical issues, so leave them alone if possible!)

Pre-load is set in the bearings by the bearing manufacturer (the offset of inner and outer races I think). When you tighten up the lock nut on the top end of the spindle, the preload is automatically set as the bearings seat, back to back, on their inner and outer spacers. Both inner and outer spacers are indentical length, hence easy to manufacture, and correct pre-load is made fool-proof.

The nose cap then holds the pre-loaded bearings into the quill, it doesn't effect the pre-load, but needs to be tightened

(I will go out on a limb and suggest a light to medium tightness :o for the nose cap.... most of us don't have the correct tools anyway, so I suspect it involves a brass rod and a hammer...:o )

If it wasn't for this "in-built" and automatic pre-loading, there would be thousands of disabled milling machines through out the world!

JTToner

01-01-2010, 11:53 PM

Peter S

01-02-2010, 05:00 AM

You're totally correct - I also have the BP manual but didn't read the part about the felt marker until after I'd removed the cap. I'll go with the 0.003" feeler and lock it. Then check it from time to time as I use the machine. I hope there are some lessons coming out of all this.

Johnny

Johnny, the .003" check is nothing to do with the correct tightening of the nose cap. You tighten the nose cap tight, finish. Then check to see you have .003" clearance. If you have no clearance, it means the bearings are not being contacted by the nose cap, and something is fundamentally wrong with the stack-up heights, recess etc. Pretty unlikely to happen unless someone has reground the spacer length between the back-to-back bearings....

Circlip

01-02-2010, 05:39 AM

Rkeplers Photo now shows the obvious reason why the drawbar wouldn't release the tool, so sheared keys were a smokescreen, and yes, hindsight is a great teacher.

A picture saves a thousand (Probably in this case FIVE thousand) words. Did mention that the drawing was a bit blurred and unfortunately the cross section isolated the spindle from the rest of the head so made it unclear.

Hopefully JTT's bearings are undamaged.

Regards Ian.

Carld

01-02-2010, 07:40 AM

Rkeplers photo proves nothing.

Circlip

01-02-2010, 02:36 PM

Well the shaft with the bit of sticky tape on it looks awfuly like item 33 on posting 89 so the collar on it seems to suggest that it's the item 3/4 in the same cross section. Strangly enough, there's no cross section shown in the area of the collar, but we are told that 2 piece drawbolts are used as well so the only thing to stop a second part falling out attached to the tool would be a larger diameter bit.

It works for me.

Regards Ian

rkepler

01-02-2010, 02:41 PM

Rkeplers photo proves nothing.

Of course not, nothing but photos (and maybe some Xrays) of the original setup could prove what was happening.

But based on my Lagun drawbar and the drawings I have it would seem that the most likely scenario is that the tool was tightened up into the spindle as normal. For some reason the drawbar top and bottom separated in the process of removing the tool. At that point the bottom of the drawbar was pushed down in the collar with the top threads catching on the o-ring in the collar, after which time all the pressure from the top was on the collar and against the spindle itself and not actually pushing out the tool. After a while the top part of the drawbar was pushed down while the tool was pushed up, and the 2 sections of the drawbar were mated again, this time with some loctite to keep them together. The next time the drawbar was operated the tool came out of the spindle as normal.

The only other possibility that occurred to me was that a chip (or maybe part of the key or something) broke off into the undercut part of the shank and rolled a groove. Occupying this space it managed to roll into interference whenever the tool was pulled but not when it was rotated. Somehow this interference was overcome when the 2 part drawbar was reunited and could be withdraw from the top of the tool.

I could come up with increasingly less likely scenarios that start to look more like science fiction and less like deductive reasoning, but I think the 2 likely things are above and would guess that the first case is a lot more likely than the second.

BTW: here's the top of the parts list for the fuzzy drawing showing the R8 spindle.

http://www.kepler-eng.com/images/lagun_drawbar_parts.gif

This shows the parts on the collar that fits between the drawbar and the spindle as an "o-ring" and "collar". The arrangement of these is as I've described, the o-ring fitting inside the collar and intended to keep the collar at the top of the bad by supplying some pressure to keep it there. As I recall it's a PITA to get the collar on the bar, it has to be pretty much twisted and shoved to get over the threads on the end. It would seem to me that it would be quite capable of holding a tool in the spindle with the threads caught in the o-ring..

Carld

01-02-2010, 02:45 PM

Circlip, that won't float.

What JT said was, "Ultimately, I had just the hex nut/handle part of the db out with the 7/16" shaft buried deep inside the machine and screwed into the stuck tool."

The shaft is "buried deep inside the machine and screwed into the stuck tool" and that tells me there was no interference from the hex which was gone at that point or the spacer collar.

The key words here are "deep inside the machine" and with that the only thing holding the R8 tool in the spindle is something besides the shaft, the collar or the hex.

That is as plain as I can state it and I don't know how to tell you any plainer. The hex and/or collar had nothing to do with the R8 tool not coming out of the spindle. PERIOD.

What part of "deep inside the machine" you don't understand.

PS: the tape on the shaft in the photo is to hold the collar on the shaft so it comes out with the drawbar. I have seen that done in shops where they used different length drawbars or some of the machinists had their own drawbars just as I did at times.

Circlip

01-03-2010, 04:35 AM

Even now a photo of the O/Ps complete drawbar would save TEN thousand words. We can both hypothosize on what COULD have happened. That a two piece drawbar was the culprit there is no argument, its construction and how it affected tool extraction is the question.

Regards Ian.

Carld

01-03-2010, 08:17 AM

Ok, you believe what you want to and I will stick with what JT said.

EDIT: any involvement of the drawbar may not be relative to the tool stuck in the bore anyway. Since in his first post he said the R8 tool would move up and down and spin but would not come out and he was not able to drive it out. There's no way an Oring could hold the drawbar in when hit with a hammer.

JT was the only one there to look at it so we are going on what he said and what we think is wrong. I know your not going to give up your opinion and I am not giving up mine so we have to agree to disagree as I see it.

Anyway JT has the tool out and is repairing the mill and that is all that counts.

Circlip

01-04-2010, 06:46 AM

"Anyway JT has the tool out and is repairing the mill and that is all that counts."

Sorry Carld, it's taken thirteen pages and 129 postings to get to the point that the spindle is out, so rather than brush aside the cause, it MIGHT be advantageous to actully SEE what the cause was for OTHERS education.

What also counts is that next time, unlike you, I only drank one pint so my own aim was lower and slower.

Regards Ian.

Carld

01-04-2010, 08:18 AM

If your hose is short and your pressure weak stand a little closer or you'll piss on your feet.

actually I don't think JT ever did remove the quill or spindle. He did however get the tool out and said he still don't know what was holding it in. He is in the process of assembling it now.

I still maintain there was something between the R8 mandrel and the spindle bore and the broken drawbar had nothing to do with it but no one will ever know for sure.

Circlip

01-04-2010, 09:01 AM

Not unless he gives us a PHOTO of the freakin drawbar, had to put that in large letters as you are unable to understand three previous postings where I stated it.:rolleyes:

Regards Ian.

Carld

01-04-2010, 09:18 AM

I caught that long ago Ian, but after many asked for photos there are none. A drawing of what it looked like may be better than a photo because only X-ray would show the insides and after the db and tool are out a photo is not very informative in that manner.

I am as curious as you as to the cause of the tool sticking in the bore but he implied in his last post he was not as concerned about that as he is getting the mill back together.

I will say that of all the broken drawbars with spacers that I have had to deal with, and that may be about 6 or 8 from heavy handed workers, none of them got stuck in the bore of the spindle. I was able to take a hammer and punch and knock the bar and tool out of the spindle. All of them were on BridgePorts. For some reason the company kept buying the db's with roll pins and even double pinning the hex didn't help. Finally I threaded them and made a new hex part.

JTToner

01-04-2010, 11:30 AM

Guys - I got it up and running yesterday. Dear wife had to help me with the motor, it is heavy. Ran a small job with the ER-40 chuck, just some round spacers with one end milled 15*. No problem, but haven't tried to remove the chuck yet. Anyway, the ER-40 chuck isn't the one that gave me problem, it was an APT endmil. I examined it closely and found no significant damage, just some light chafing which would be normal. Wednesday, I'll shot some pics of the chicom drawbar, and a cobbled up version of the original that I'm now using. I've never tried posting pics before, I'm basically a low tech guy lost in a high tech world. We do, however, have a digital camera I bought the wife for her eBay sales (which she never did). Thanks to all,
Johnny

Circlip

01-04-2010, 12:14 PM

Thanks in anticipation Johnny, you're a gent.

Regards Ian.

ulav8r

01-04-2010, 02:39 PM

Until JTToner posts pictures of the drawbar parts removed from the mill, everyone will be guessing as to the reason the tool would not come out. With pictures, the mystery "might" be resolved.

Carld

01-04-2010, 03:07 PM

Photo's would be nice and glad it's up and running.

JT, you will have to open an account with photobucket.com and then upload it to that site. If there is a line under your photo that says default then click on it and the screen will change. Then you put the cursor over the photo and a dropdown will come under the photo. Go to the bottom of the list and left click on that line that says img and it will highlight. Then hold the ctrl button and hit the C button. Now it's stored in a temp file on your 'puter. Now go to this thread and hit post and when the post window opens click the cursor in the text box and then hold ctrl button and hit V and a line of text will appear in the box. That is a link to your photo and when you hit the button Submit Reply the photo will appear in your thread. You can add text before or after the link in the post or none at all. You can go back and edit the reply and leave the photo link there and add text.

It's not hard at all and the hardest part is taking the photo, loading it on your 'puter and uploading it to photobucket. You don't even have to resize the photo when uploading it because photobucket does that for you.

EDIT: there are other sites to put photo's on and there is another way to cut and paste but that's the way I have always done it so why change. This is added as a disclaimer.

Peter S

01-04-2010, 08:04 PM

Johnny,

I don't have the fortitude to re-read this entire thread...but I think you said you over-tightened the draw bar (i.e. more than you normally do). I am curious why you did this, i.e. is there some problem with this particular tool holder slipping in the mill spindle? Or not fitting properly? If so, that is a bad sign. There should never be any slippage in the spindle, and it shouldn't require excessive tightening of the draw bar. (But it should be tight none the less, although that is a pretty vague term :o ).

Tools slip or move in some collets occasionally, but never slippage in the spindle bore itself, this is one of the foundation points of machine accuracy and should remain unmarked.

Apologies if I am stating the obvious, just curious...

JTToner

01-04-2010, 10:29 PM

I'm ashamed to admit this, but before the jam, I was milling the flats for some 5/8" "T" bolts. I was using a 1" endmil in an ER-40 collet. Well, the end mill kept slipping in the collet (not in the spindle). So, I pulled the ER-40 and finished the job with an 1 1/4" APT R8 indexable end mill. That worked fine, but when I changed tools, I was a bit angry with the ER-40 slippage so, in anger, I tightened the R8 tool like no 70 year old guy ever did before. I'm surprised I didn't shear the drawbar. This was doubly stupid because the slippage with the ER was between the collet and the end mill, not between the ER chuck and the spindle. I must've caused the inside of the spindle to swell up into the relieved part of the R8 tool just above the taper. That's my best explanation, and it is pure speculation. It took many blows with a 10# hammer to swage the tool out. I had the business end of the spindle supported by two 1"x1" square Al bars so as to minimize spindle damage, though I was resolved to the probability that the spindle was history. Seems I may have gotten lucky. I haven't checked run out yet, probably won't have time until Saturday.
Hope my explanation explained.
Johnny

Carld

01-04-2010, 10:35 PM

Sounds like thats the way it was. Uhhh, as to getting upset and over torquing something, well I know I have done it and I suppose a lot of us have.

Alls well that ends well and I am glad you have it up and running again. By the way I am 68.

Peter S

01-05-2010, 06:00 AM

Johnny,

Explanation good thanks, I am pretty good at doing things I regret later also.

I think I have only ever used ER collets once - and hated them for their feeble grip. They seem to be commonly mentioned here though, either there are better types or maybe lots of botched jobs?

I have used R8 collets but cutters will pull out of R8 when working hard, and in recent years (using 40 taper spindle) have only used Clarkson or Larcher autolok collet chucks. It is impossible for a cutter to move in one of these chucks, nothing you do can move them, they are absolutely fantastic, but for some odd reason seldom mentioned (expensive?). You only need a light hand tightness for these chucks, no force required. You need cutters with threaded shanks and centred end, but they are "standard" in NZ.

EVguru

01-05-2010, 06:36 AM

I use an 'autolock' chuck most of the time and try and buy the threaded cutters to suit. My chuck was on special from Chronos with both sets of collets for less than £100. It's very nicely made and feels good in the hand as well as working well. Convincing people that they don't need to be more than hand tight and that the wrench is only for getting the cutter OUT is the problem.

Dawai

01-05-2010, 07:00 AM

Yeah..
Now someone find me a spindle for my bridgeport for $5.. I, sirs do not claim to be perfect. I also state that all machine tools are expendable. use them or wax and polish them, your choice. Do not abuse them.

Brass.. it sets up a ringing.. I have three brass hammers.. I have taken a block of brass and a air impact (muffler cutter) and knocked really stubborn things with a taper fit apart.

Oil on taper.. some say a light oil is required.. some say.. You lay a finger -rust them together and you repeat the post results.

DO NOT oil the tapers on a Harley Davidson tapered crank pin.. or.. it will shift when you hit the brake without clutching.. or apply a lot of power to the rear wheel.. you want them buggers to stick, right after you tune them in.