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View Full Version : Grizzly's new South Bends



lugnut
12-30-2009, 03:01 PM
Just got my new Grizzly catologe and there are the new South Bend lathes in there. Of course they are way out of my price range with the cheapest at over 18 K.:eek: :eek:
mel

Ries
12-30-2009, 03:27 PM
I dont think the "real" south bend's are out yet- just a few rebadged chinese 14" and bigger machines.

Pricewise, the last american made Heavy 10 was priced at about $16,000, and that was over 5 years ago.
My guess is the new Heavy 10 will be less than that, closer to $10k.

Supposedly they will be here in the spring.

Mcruff
12-30-2009, 03:28 PM
What size is the machine? I guess its not the new belt drive 10k or heavy 10, must be the gear head units.
Was it one of these Taiwan made South Bends?
http://images.southbendlathe.com/productphotos/lathes/14x40-Toolroom-Lathe/sb1012.gif

Alistair Hosie
12-30-2009, 05:20 PM
Apart from the writing on the side what part is real southbend.It sure doesn't look like an original southbend maybe I'm wrong though.Alistair

Mcruff
12-30-2009, 06:21 PM
These look very much like the South Bend geared head (Turn Nado and Nordic) lathes that were sold in the 70's, 80's and into the 90's. They were completely different than the old belt drive lathes but they were at least partially designed by South Bend but were built overseas in Taiwan I believe.

Ries
12-30-2009, 07:42 PM
When I went out to the mailbox today, the Grizz catalog was there, and I read it while eating lunch.

These do bear some resemblance to the old Turnado's.
I have run a Turnado, and I must say that it didnt wow me- it seemed very similar to my large Jet- which is ZX series, and retails for around $15k.
By comparison, the equivalent new South Bend is $35,000 for an 18x60 like my Jet- and that is without taper attachment, collet closer, or DRO's.
A fully equipped South Bend Turnado would probably be $40k.
Now if you read the specs, it has hardened and ground ways, NSK bearings, and digitally controlled variable speed motor- but it still weighs in a good 1200 pounds lighter than my Jet.

Since I only paid $2500, new, for my Jet- it was a special one time deal- I cannot imagine that the South Bend is worth 15 times as much- but maybe someone will pay.

It appears to be the best quality manual lathe that Grizz can source out of Taiwan, but I am not convinced its worth $35k. Competition at that price range includes the eastern Euro lathes like Summit, Lion, Tos, and the like- all of which have pretty good reputations.
For not much more, you could get a complete rebuild on an older American Lathe- Yancey, in Portland, was doing complete ground up rebuilds on bigger american lathes for around $50k.

I am still waiting to see the Heavy 10, though. Should be interesting.

RogerM
12-30-2009, 07:51 PM
I have been looking at these through Acra Machinery. http://www.acramachinery.com/Manual_Machines/1400-1600TVS.htm
Looks like it is made by this company. http://http://www.acra.com.tw/frejoth/product_info.php?info=p2067_FEL-1440EVS-1460EVS-1640EVS-1660EVS.html&XTCsid=47e4ccdd6283fe1f7a18b2b5cf6ea47b
It is listed as made in Tiawan. They list made in China and made in Tiawan machines. This is the same machine that was being sold as a South Bend before it was bought by Mr. Grizzly.

Roger

http://www.acramachinery.com/images/1600TVS.jpg

Oldguy
12-30-2009, 07:53 PM
What does a Haas TL-1 cost?

Glenn

.RC.
12-30-2009, 07:57 PM
lots......

Mark Hockett
12-30-2009, 08:14 PM
That lathe is nothing new, it has been around for a while and there are other companies that sell similar lathes. The Acra is one that is suspiciously close,
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/mahockett/1600TVS.jpg

Both lathes are very similar to the lathes manufactured in Taiwan by Win-Ho,

http://www.win-ho.com/

http://www.win-ho.com/p-inverter.html

I got a quote on the Southbend 5 years ago and with all the options I wanted, like a DRO, taper, collet closer, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, Holdridge radius cutter and mic stop it was cheaper to buy a new Haas TL-1.

philbur
12-30-2009, 08:33 PM
That was a very special one time deal at $2,500 for a new 18x60 Jet. It's not really fair to compare a very special one time deal with the regular retail price of another machine now is it? What was the regular price of the jet?

Phil:)



By comparison, the equivalent new South Bend is $35,000 for an 18x60 like my Jet- and that is without taper attachment, collet closer, or DRO's.
- but it still weighs in a good 1200 pounds lighter than my Jet.

Since I only paid $2500, new, for my Jet- it was a special one time deal- I cannot imagine that the South Bend is worth 15 times as much- but maybe someone will pay.
.

spope14
12-30-2009, 08:42 PM
Haas TL1 was about 30K fully tooled up last time I checked for a quote.

CCWKen
12-30-2009, 09:17 PM
This is the Grizzly version but it doesn't say anything about South Bend.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-X-40-Electronic-Variable-Speed-Lathe/G0670

Also, "South Bend" doesn't show up in a search of the Grizzly online catalog.

lazlo
12-30-2009, 10:01 PM
Haas TL1 was about 30K fully tooled up last time I checked for a quote.

The Haas TL-1 is made in Taiwan.

Mark Hockett
12-30-2009, 10:15 PM
The Haas TL-1 is made in Taiwan.
My TL-1 has "Made in the USA" right on the back splash panel. The coolant pump is made in Taiwan and the linear ways are made in Germany though.

lazlo
12-30-2009, 10:18 PM
Mark, which generation TL-1 do you have?

Mark Hockett
12-30-2009, 10:28 PM
Mark, which generation TL-1 do you have?

Its a 2005 model. My friend just got a new one a few months ago, I will ask him if it says Made in the USA.

Ries
12-30-2009, 10:48 PM
I have seen, and played with a tiny bit, Mark's TL-1, and it is waay more fun than a $35,000 Taiwan manual South Bend.

And used, they are out there for around $20k, sometimes less.

The list price on the Jet is around $14,000.
http://www.southern-tool.com/store/jet_zx_large-spindle-bore-18_lathe.html

Mine was so cheap because it was an original factory sample, pre-production, and varies slightly from the actual production machine.

I am not flogging the Jet as some kind of excellent lathe- its a serviceable, relatively well built Taiwan lathe, perfectly adequate for general shop use.
It is not a Monarch or an American Pacemaker or a LeBlonde- but if it was, and they were still making em, an equivalent american made lathe would run between $150,000 and $200,000- those are the prices the Navy paid, in the 80's, for the last well built american made similar sized lathes from old line american manufacturers.

I bring up my Jet because I think, at around $14,000, the 18x60 Jet, as well as equivalent machines from Kingston, Victor, Sharp, Eisen, and other importers of better Taiwan machines, are a much better deal than $35,000 for a new South Bend.

Maybe, just Maybe, the South Bend really is better built, with better components, electricals, and bearings. But is it really 2 1/2 times better?

Me, I would be buying the Haas, even though the ultimate capacity isnt quite as large. Modern CNC machine can do anything a manual can do, and once you get to know em, just about as fast- and they can do all kinds of things, much faster, that manual lathes can only be persuaded to do with a lot of tricks, extra tooling, and superhuman abilities.
As far as I know, the entire Haas line is made in Oxnard California. They may import some raw castings- I think they use a mix of foreign and domestic castings- and some parts are imported. But they design and build the vast majority of em in California.

lugnut
12-30-2009, 11:11 PM
Wierd, the new Grizzly catologe lists 4 lathes, 5 bandsaws, 2 milliing machines, vices, 2 surface grinders, lathe chucks, live centers and R-8 and 5-c collets, rotory tables, T shirts and clocks all with South Bend names on them yet the web site says NO Such Things. :confused:

dp
12-30-2009, 11:28 PM
Alla y'all are looking at the wrong website. You need to go here:

http://southbendlathe.com/

Note the "Contact Us" site is in Bellingham, WA.

lakeside53
12-31-2009, 12:43 AM
Every time I start to feel good about my lathes, someone mentions TL-1, then Mark posts, and I feel inadequate, again....:mad: :D :confused:

barts
12-31-2009, 12:31 PM
Note that the use of a VFD allows them to greatly reduce the parts count in the headstock - no need for elaborate spindle drive gear trains, just a back gear.
My 15" YMZ came with a two speed motor for the same reason.

- Bart

mbensema
12-31-2009, 01:33 PM
Wierd, the new Grizzly catologe lists 4 lathes, 5 bandsaws, 2 milliing machines, vices, 2 surface grinders, lathe chucks, live centers and R-8 and 5-c collets, rotory tables, T shirts and clocks all with South Bend names on them yet the web site says NO Such Things.

Grizzly updates their website January 1, check again tomorrow.

motorcyclemac
12-31-2009, 02:33 PM
I almost never go to grizzly. I'll try to stop and see what they look like.

Cheers
Mac.

dp
01-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Here's the new South Bend pages from the 2010 catalog:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Main/570

The machines are not new designs - may be some small details that are new, but they all look familiar.

aboard_epsilon
01-01-2010, 04:37 PM
Here's the new South Bend pages from the 2010 catalog:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Main/570

The machines are not new designs - may be some small details that are new, but they all look familiar.

the ones that will be of new design are in the left hand column entitled "coming soon"

here

http://southbendlathe.com/lathes.aspx

all the best.markj

tdkkart
01-01-2010, 05:58 PM
Here's the new South Bend pages from the 2010 catalog:

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Main/570

The machines are not new designs - may be some small details that are new, but they all look familiar.


The question here is, what makes these lathes worth 2-1/2 to 3 times more than any other lathe that Grizzly offers?? Grizzly themselves must consider their own lathes to be real pieces of garbage if these are that much better??
In reality, in 2 machines of the same basic design there's only so many improvements you can make between the 2, does each improvement cost twice as much??

It'll be interesting to see what the prices of the "classic" Southbends will be, IF they ever arrive.

lazlo
01-01-2010, 06:58 PM
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2010/Main/570

The machines are not new designs - may be some small details that are new, but they all look familiar.

Agreed -- it sure looks like Shiraz Balolia is pasting the SouthBend logo on Grizzly lathes and associated tooling :( Not surprising, but he ("PapaGrizzly") assured the die-hards on the PracticalMachinist South Bend forum that wasn't going to happen.

The Artful Bodger
01-01-2010, 08:19 PM
The question here is, what makes these lathes worth 2-1/2 to 3 times more than any other lathe that Grizzly offers??.


Gray paint?;)

Oldguy
01-01-2010, 09:29 PM
This is a fun thread to read. It seems that no one will be happy with South Bend, whatever they do. If they build copies of the old machines we'll hear "they're too expensive, where's the progress and they aren't made in the US". If they make updated machines we'll hear "they're too expensive, they aren't the old machines, the parts won't fit my old machine and they aren't made in the US".

Sounds like a no win situation to me, but I hope they can make a go of it.

Glenn

lazlo
01-01-2010, 09:55 PM
This is a fun thread to read. It seems that no one will be happy with South Bend, whatever they do.

What most folks were hoping, and PapaGrizzly implied, was that he was going to re-cast the old South Bend 9's and 10's in Taiwan.

I think folks would be willing to pay 2 - 3 times the price of a no-name Taiwanese lathe for a modern South Bend from Taiwan, but he's not going to fool anyone by putting "SouthBend" stickers on grey Grizzly machines.

RB211
01-01-2010, 11:11 PM
The South Bend versions have high quality ball bearings, and I am assuming much more attention to the finer details in the calibration of the machine tools. How many Chinese lathes have you ever used where the tail stock was anything but inline with the spindle in all 6 axises of movement? This is not to say the Taiwan South Bends will be better, but they better be.

The Artful Bodger
01-02-2010, 12:25 AM
The South Bend versions have high quality ball bearings, and I am assuming much more attention to the finer details in the calibration of the machine tools. How many Chinese lathes have you ever used where the tail stock was anything but inline with the spindle in all 6 axises of movement? This is not to say the Taiwan South Bends will be better, but they better be.


Just ask any vendor of Chinese machine tools and they will assure you that they get their's specially made with high quality ball bearings and greater accuracy at every stage of production.;)

loose nut
01-02-2010, 11:12 AM
When Mr. Grizz bought South Bend (the name at least) he stated that he was going to keep the bigger types in production as is and the "new" 9" and 10K's etc. would come at a latter date.

His stated intent was to keep the older models, as much as he could, built like the originals with some modernization and improvements, newer electrical's and bearings, larger spindle holes etc. to address some of the complaints of the past.

Give the guy a chance it's a big undertaking.