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Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 10:45 AM
Hi everyone!

I figure I would share project that took up 5 days to do. You'll understand why it took so long to do after all the pics and the way I had to do it.

I had to replace a die section for an old trim die that was back in 1919.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0551.jpg

The die section has been welded a couple of times and breaking through the weld again

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0552.jpg

Here is a pic of the end of the other die showing it's age

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0557.jpg

Another of the nasty welded job done on it

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0553.jpg

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 10:59 AM
One of the things that made this project a little tricky was the fact that the punch is tapered bigger towards the punch holder.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0554.jpg

Because of this I had to open the clearance up on the die section to specific point on the punch.

Normal our die are made out of house, but this time they wanted to save money and had me make it. A lot of this project was done by hand. So it is a little tricky getting it to where you want. Our dies for this for this process are made with 0.0005" to 0.0015" per side of clearance with 1 degree of taper in the opening to allow the part to fall out.

I started out with a piece of AIRDI-150 (D-2) that is 1" X 3" X 7.75", squared up and began the layout of it.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0561.jpg

After the layout, center punched all over the place to drill out a lot of the material.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0564.jpg

After a little while I had all the drilling done on it.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0568.jpg

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 11:20 AM
After the drilling my layout lines where getting a little hard to see, so I had to re-layout my lines. Here are couple pics of my lay out.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0566.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0567.jpg

After I got my lines layed out, I proceeded to mill out some more of the excess material out.

Here is what it looked like after I was done with the milling.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0574.jpg

After that I started to attack it on a Buterfly die filer.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0576.jpg

It took several hours of filing like this to get close to start hand fitting the die section to the punch. The reason the filing took so long is I was also putting in the 1 degree of taper in.

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 11:26 AM
After all the work done on the die filer

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0578.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0580.jpg

Then I clamped the old and the new together to do get the shape closer to what the punch fit before.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0582.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0581.jpg

You can see in the pics I beefed up the new die section compaired to the old die section.

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 11:33 AM
After all of that it was time to start hand fitting the punch.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0679.jpg

After some more hours the punch fit to the point where it can not be used any more in production.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0680.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0682.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0684.jpg

Now that the punch fits all I need to do is mill the 4 degree sides on it.

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 11:41 AM
Now the 4 degrees are milled on it.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0688.jpg

The new die section should be back from heat treat this week, reflaten and sharpen, it will be ready for production run.

In the time I spent waiting for it to come back I decide I would re-square the punch holder and sharpen the punch.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0686.jpg

The above pic is the punch off the holder. I don't have a pic of the punch after it was trued up. I will have pics of the whole die later this week.

Carld
01-03-2010, 11:43 AM
Nice work, what does this die punch make?

danlb
01-03-2010, 11:44 AM
That's quite a project. Great work.

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 11:55 AM
Nice work, what does this die punch make?

This die is actually used to make the scales for a pocket knife here at Queen Cutlery Company. http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/queen/index.php

Thanks guys.

I'll get a pic of a knife that was made on the orginal die up here later.

jkilroy
01-03-2010, 11:58 AM
Old school, very nice, about the only thing you didn't do was drag out the slip stones. Make sure and punch your name and date in the end, like the old one, cause some guy like you might be luck enough to be reworking this piece in 90 years!

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 12:02 PM
Here is a pic of the knife that it will make parts for specificly the handles or scale.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/S2020M20120008.jpg

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 12:08 PM
Old school, very nice, about the only thing you didn't do was drag out the slip stones. Make sure and punch your name and date in the end, like the old one, cause some guy like you might be luck enough to be reworking this piece in 90 years!

No I didn't drag out the slip stones, the stone I had to use were not small enough to get into the smaller end of the die section. I did a lot of draw filing though, it gve some good results though. But I did my name and date in the end. Someone probably will in 90 years:D

chrisfournier
01-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Thanks for this thread. It is just the kind of thread that reminds me that handwork can still get the job done. Some days I feel like nothing is gonna happen unless it's at a computer or on a computer controlled machine.

The shape of the die was familiar but I couldn't place it; to see the knife was like finishing a good mystery book.

How would you rate the quality of these knives? I may well want to get one now that I "know" the guy who made the die...

DR
01-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Hi everyone!

I figure I would share project that took up 5 days to do. You'll understand why it took so long to do after all the pics and the way I had to do it.

I had to replace a die section for an old trim die that was back in 1919.

.................................................. .....................



That's exactly the way my old die making text books show. You did a good job.

Assuming your total cost to the company is at least $50/hour (salary + overhead). That'd be $400/day or $2000/week.

If you have a CAD file for the design I think you could have had a new punch and die cut on a wire EDM out of pre-hardened material for less.

J Tiers
01-03-2010, 01:06 PM
If you have a CAD file for the design I think you could have had a new punch and die cut on a wire EDM out of pre-hardened material for less.

Die from 1919, clearances of 0.0005 to 0.0015............................................ .....

Carld
01-03-2010, 02:02 PM
What kind of challenge would it have been if he had used a CNC. It's Craftsmanship by hand.

DR
01-03-2010, 02:10 PM
Die from 1919, clearances of 0.0005 to 0.0015............................................ .....

And, you really think he got those?

I don't see from the knife picture the exact part he's stamping, but those kind of clearances seem a bit tight for stamping anything except very thin material.

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 08:17 PM
No I didn't get those clearances. I'm about 0.002" per side because of the tapered punch. The clearances of 0.0005" to 0.0015" are what our out of house die makers would have made it to. The material that is cut on these are 0.028" to 0.035" thick hard brass that has about 0.100" thick nickel silver bolster and cap. They ran through the die to cut the shape of the handle.

Walter talked about the forming process of the nickel silver bolster and caps in a previous thread. It is a good read if you have not read it yet.

Now as for wire EDM cut a new die with the die makers cost would be $875.00 and compaired to what they pay me to do was about a 1/3 of the cost. So they saved money on this one.

I would rate these about 9 out of 10 for the craftmanship that goes into each one. There is about 250+ hand operation that go into make a knife the old way. And that is how Queen Cutlery makes them.

Here is little closer view of the part being made in that photo. I'll get some better ones tomorrow.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/S2020M20120008_2.jpg

Wasteland16354
01-03-2010, 08:24 PM
Here is the link to the thread called "Forging and Forming" by Walter, for those that haven't read it yet. It is a good read!:D

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=37886&highlight=Walter

gmatov
01-04-2010, 02:41 AM
Wasteland,

I'm pleased to see that you made that inhouse for wages rather than farm it out. I don't know if you are hourly or salary, but it doesn't matter, in the long run.

If you are sitting idle while an outside firm does your work, you are an expense unutilized.

Sure, an outside firm does not get the work, and you say the cost of outsourcing, so you do the work for your wage rate. That is actually 875 saved, as you would still be paid, and the Knifeworks would pay the 875 to do work that could be done inhouse.

Everybody seems so happy to get farmed out work from our makers. They only disapprove of work that is outsourced overseas. Any work they can glom from our own factories is A-OK by them.

A quick Google of "Knifeworks Titusville PA brings up Great Eastern Cutlery, and Cumberland Knife Works, and in a former steel mill.

Glad to see that we still HAVE a maker of knives, not only in the US BUT in PA. I mentioned elsewhere that I tried to replace a Schrade 3 blade a while ago, only options I could find, at the time, was a Buck or a Schrade, Buck bought Schrade, BOTH made in China, then found they still have a US made Buck. NOBODY carries it. AND, the Buck price is actually cheaper than the cut rate sellers, read KMart sell it for. Only a BUCK, but what the hell?

This is a machining Forum. Why are so many bitching when a DIEMAKER shows a die he made? This is what you are trained to do. That it was not a sale to one of the other members is thought to be kind of selfish.

My mill lost lots of people just BECAUSE they farmed out so much work, and they paid more to have that work done by outsiders.

Outsiders were called in to repair EOTS and when we came to work were told to go fix the EOT that the outsiders could not get to run. Need I say, Union Shop? Screw you!

We NEED to lose more work to former Bosses who set up shop after they took retirement packages? I lost a lot of my work to them and got junk repairs on replacement perts while I was working, but there were too many who had pull and took my work.

These were jobs in shop that were done between breakdowns that were done to keep all of us UNION bums from spending half the day sleeping.

Actually, I would like to see some of you climb 60 feet up and fix one of them sumbitches in 140 F temps. It ain't all that cushy IN a UNION mill. OSHA charts only go to 95 F, 15 up, 45 down. Asked the plant Safety Person what we do now, and she said I don't know, you are off the chart. Kinda like radiation workers, BUT, they have definite times to work. We didn't. Get the f'in job done, and get the hell down.

Back to the shanty and cool off and wait for the next breakdown. Snooze if you can get a seat. You're gonna go back out there soon.

I got an hour or 2 of ZEES per shift. The **** you go through when on the job, a LOT of you would not put up with. Heat from the coil field, from the input of the ovens, the steam from the rolling mills.

And we got guys who are scared to death about the mist from their coolant!!!

This is all some of the crap you put up with in a UNION shop. What do they put up with in a NON-Union shop? Nobody to look after your interest. The BOSS? Don't make me laugh. You are money in the pocket to them.

Anyhow, good job on the die set.

Cheers,

George

That pic from 8:17 is a nice looking pocket knife. How long is the blade? I'd like one long and slim so I could use as a dinner knife when I go out for a steak. THEY give you those damned dull saws to cut their meat. 4 inches would be nice. And I can legally carry any weapon.

Peter N
01-04-2010, 03:11 AM
Wasteland, that's a great example of proper old-fashioned tool and die making and I congratulate you for achieving that.

I don't envy you filing that D2, it's not nice material to work with in any form and it must have been 'interesting' cleaning up that surface to an acceptable finish without resorting to the use of any stones on it.
However that $875 quote/cost for wire eroding it sounds very very high indeed, and for less than that you could have shipped it all the way over here to the UK and got it back with plenty of change to spare.
Still, it was a nice job all the same and I look forward to seeing the finished die.

Peter

Machinist-Guide
01-04-2010, 03:36 AM
It's nice to see people with Old School skills. In today's world the younger die makers would have the wire machine guy burn a section like this. These old school skills are slowly dieing.

I didn't see any dowel holes. What holds it on location. A lot of the older die makers set there sections in pockets with wedges to hold them in.

Machinist-Guide
01-04-2010, 03:49 AM
I noticed in one of your post you said you had to put the 4 deg. sides on it. I figure this is how it is held. With a 4 deg. wedge.

J Tiers
01-04-2010, 09:11 AM
Dang... a post from gmatov that I 100% agree with..... except that I don't recall anyone seriously complaining, just remarking on the cost...

I'm no T&D maker, but I have done a couple punch and die sets that way. It's a lot of work, but it can be done in a very crude shop.

I'd guess from the remarks that that steel can't be "sheared-in" to final shape very well. Not like old tool steels.

DR
01-04-2010, 10:43 AM
.................................................. ...................

Now as for wire EDM cut a new die with the die makers cost would be $875.00 and compaired to what they pay me to do was about a 1/3 of the cost. So they saved money on this one.

.................................................. ......................




$875/3 = $292, $292/40=$7.29/hour.

Minimum wage in Pa is $7.25/hour (per Googling).

Unless your 5-day-to-make number (40 hours) is wrong you're about the lowest paid die maker around.

I also don't agree with the concept you'd be sitting idle if the die work had been farmed out. At the low wages you're paid the company would be complete fools not giving you productive work.

lazlo
01-04-2010, 11:10 AM
After that I started to attack it on a Buterfly die filer.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac339/wasteland16354/111_Die_Project/DSCN0576.jpg

It took several hours of filing like this to get close to start hand fitting the die section to the punch. The reason the filing took so long is I was also putting in the 1 degree of taper in.

Ah, thanks for that! I've always asked folks with a die filer what they're used for, since most I've seen sit idle, gathering dust :) A picture's worth a thousand words...

boslab
01-04-2010, 01:55 PM
lovely job,well done, i dont get the posotive 4 degree on the punch though i used to use a 5 mm bearing then either undercut and parallel or negative 5 degree, ie the punch had clearance, lack of resulted in die failure, correct clearances in machenery [bout0.1 X thickness]
regards
{like the die filer, mines an excell which looks the same}
mark

juergenwt
01-04-2010, 04:10 PM
Good job Wasteland.
And for all the people who don't believe 0.0005 - yes, it was done all the time.
I was the tool room foreman for a large company with a tool room of up to 36 tool and die makers. Before wire EDM all dies had to be filed by hand with a die filer assist. We made very complicated parts for the textile industry. Much more complicated than the knife, but the process was the same as Wasteland
showed. Many blanking dies needed a shaving or trimming die to follow. These are made to what is known as "line to line".
For these dies the punch on both dies is exactly the same (if the blanked out part is the portion to be used and not the slug).
The blanking die will have the clearence and the shaving die will be line to line. The blanked part will have to be nested on top of the shaving die - a very important part of the job. Lost art, thank you Wasteland.

Walter
01-06-2010, 05:06 AM
$875/3 = $292, $292/40=$7.29/hour.

Minimum wage in Pa is $7.25/hour (per Googling).

Unless your 5-day-to-make number (40 hours) is wrong you're about the lowest paid die maker around.

I also don't agree with the concept you'd be sitting idle if the die work had been farmed out. At the low wages you're paid the company would be complete fools not giving you productive work.

DR,

Wasteland and I work the same job at the same place. While I won't discuss payrates and salaries, lets just say that the payscale is low. However... In these times were employed, not unemployed, and have serious job security. We also have some benefits that I think many people in the industry would love to have. It's like all things, it's a trade off. I like my job, I like the folks I work with, I like the boss we have and that's hard to beat. I get up in the morning and don't think "sh*t I gotta go back to that #$#%^$#hole again". I get up and look forward to what I'm going to do for the day.

Just an idea as to what the payrate is like around here.... I took a part time machinist position while unemployed.... $8.50 per hour.

I hired on full time with a large plastics corp as a maintainance machinist, $8.50... that what they tried to pay me, I was gone in a week...

I hired on with the present company out of desperation at minimum wage as a laborer... I do much better now, it ain't heaven but I'm happy to be makin a buck and not worrying about how to pay the bills.