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beanbag
01-04-2010, 03:57 AM
A public service announcement to watch out for heavier-than air fumes. I was working on my car the other day and used some spray-on Liquid Wrench / PB Blaster to free up a rusty joint. A while later, I was working underneath the car, laying on my back, and got a tiny bit woozy. I went away and got some fresh air, but didn't really feel better. Then over the next few days up will now, I have been stuck with tiny bits of nausea / dizziness / headache which vary from barely noticeable to slightly annoying, but never bad enough to actually feel sick. The strange thing is that I have smelled this stuff before, but didn't have any side effects, and I didn't even notice much of a smell while underneath the car. Maybe I also knocked my inner ear out of tram while working in that position ? :o

Anyway, I guess I'll see if it goes away in the next few days. Anybody have a similar experience?

Evan
01-04-2010, 04:11 AM
Liquid Wrench penetrating oil is 60 percent tetrachloroethylene. It is a bad actor chemical (dry cleaning fluid) and has a wide variety of side effects including death.



What are the main health hazards associated with breathing in Tetrachloroethylene?

Short-term exposure can cause irritation of the nose and throat and central nervous system (CNS) depression with symptoms such as drowsiness, dizziness, giddiness, headache, nausea, loss of coordination, confusion and unconsciousness. Deaths have occurred following exposure to very high vapour concentrations. Tetrachloroethylene is heavier than air and can accumulate in low lying areas.

Exposure to 100-200 ppm for 5-7 hours has produced headaches, drowsiness, dizziness and sleepiness. Nose and throat irritation have been reported at 200 ppm and above. Exposure to 280 ppm for 2 hours or 600 ppm for 10 minutes has produced incoordination. Intolerable irritation of the nose and throat has been observed at 1000 ppm and above. Faintness and dizziness were experienced during 2-hour exposures to 1000-1500 ppm. A 5-7 minute exposure to 2000 ppm caused volunteers to feel as though they were going to collapse. A few deaths have been reported due to CNS depression and irregular heart beat. In one case, pulmonary edema (a potentially fatal accumulation of fluid in the lungs) was reported. Liver and kidney injury has also been observed following exposure to very high concentrations which also caused significant CNS effects.

Behaviourial effects (e.g. slow reaction time to visual stimuli and coordination) have been reported in volunteers exposed to concentrations as low as 50 ppm for 4 hours/day for 4 days or 100 ppm and above for several hours. Behaviourial effects were not observed in volunteers exposed to 25 or 100 ppm for 5.5 hours.



Much more here: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/tetrachloroethylene/health_tetra.html

darryl
01-04-2010, 05:08 AM
It's possible also that repeated exposures are not tolerated as well as previous exposures. You might find that you won't be able to handle it at all in the future. I have an exhaust fan in my basement shop that sucks air right at floor level and expels it- just as a precaution in case heavier than air gasses would be present from something I'm doing. My plan was to make that system a heat exchanger- suck an equal volume of outside air in while blowing the floor level air out, and preheat the outside air with the exhaust air. Maybe that would be a futile effort, I don't know. Might be better to just preheat the incoming air with an electric element if it's too cool.

oldtiffie
01-04-2010, 05:26 AM
A public service announcement to watch out for heavier-than air fumes. I was working on my car the other day and used some spray-on Liquid Wrench / PB Blaster to free up a rusty joint. A while later, I was working underneath the car, laying on my back, and got a tiny bit woozy. I went away and got some fresh air, but didn't really feel better. Then over the next few days up will now, I have been stuck with tiny bits of nausea / dizziness / headache which vary from barely noticeable to slightly annoying, but never bad enough to actually feel sick. The strange thing is that I have smelled this stuff before, but didn't have any side effects, and I didn't even notice much of a smell while underneath the car. Maybe I also knocked my inner ear out of tram while working in that position ? :o

Anyway, I guess I'll see if it goes away in the next few days. Anybody have a similar experience?

First of all - you should have read and where necessary abided by and complied with the Material Safety Data Sheet/s (MSDS/'s) available from the manufacturer:

http://www.imperialinc.com/msds0065030.shtml

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pb+blaster+msds&meta=&aq=4&oq=PB+Blaster

You should stick to the "know so" instead of "think so" or sheer conjecture or uninformed advice or comment.

TRX
01-04-2010, 08:46 AM
The problem with the MSDS is that *everything* is bad. Let me paste in an example:



SAND, WASHED AND DRIED

1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Agate; Onyx; Quartz; Silica, crystalline quartz; Silicon dioxide
CAS No.: 14808-60-7
Molecular Weight: 60.08
Chemical Formula: SiO2
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 3382, 7023
Mallinckrodt: 7062

2. Composition/Information on Ingredients

Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
--------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ ---------
Quartz 14808-60-7 90 - 100% Yes

3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
WARNING! HARMFUL IF INHALED. OVEREXPOSURE MAY CAUSE LUNG DAMAGE. MAY CAUSE EYE IRRITATION. INHALATION CANCER HAZARD. CONTAINS QUARTZ WHICH CAN CAUSE CANCER. Risk of cancer depends upon duration and level of exposure.

SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Cancer Causing)
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 1 - Slight
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: Green (General Storage)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Acute pneumoconiosis from overwhelming exposure to silica dust has occurred. Coughing and irritation of throat are early symptoms.

Ingestion:
No adverse health effects expected.

Skin Contact:
No adverse effects expected.

Eye Contact:
May cause irritation, redness and pain.

Chronic Exposure:
Inhalation of quartz is classified as a human carcinogen. Chronic exposure can cause silicosis, a form of lung scarring that can cause shortness of breath, reduced lung function, and in severe cases, death.

Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Inhalation may increase the progression of tuberculosis; susceptibility is apparently not increased. Persons with impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of this substance. Smoking can increase the risk of lung injury.

[much more snipped]



You wouldn't want to go near any of that stuff, much less roll around in it at the beach, or let your kids play in the stuff.

The problem is is that the MSDS cries wolf on everything, making it useless if you're trying to find out something like "is it true that welding on galvanized steel is bad for you?" [from personal experience, yes...]

J Tiers
01-04-2010, 09:00 AM
Other N-chloroethylene compounds are also nasty. A long time ago I started calling the lot of them "headache juice", because they generally produced headache after use. The bad actor in that case was tri-chloroethylene, which seems to be long gone.

I was not the only one in the shop to notice it, either, so we tried to minimize the usage of that sort of product.

SpyGuy
01-04-2010, 09:07 AM
The problem with the MSDS is that *everything* is bad. Let me paste in an example:

SAND, WASHED AND DRIED
[snip]

You wouldn't want to go near any of that stuff, much less roll around in it at the beach, or let your kids play in the stuff.

The problem is is that the MSDS cries wolf on everything

Exactly. Here's a snip from an MSDS for sodium chloride:

Precautions:
Keep locked up.. Do not ingest. Do not breathe dust. Avoid contact with eyes. Wear suitable protective clothing. If ingested, seek medical advice immediately and show the container or the label. Keep away from incompatibles such as oxidizing agents, acids.

Keep it locked up? So I have to open the safe to season my food? Oh wait, reading further I see that I'm not even supposed to ingest sodium chloride (lest I require a trip to the doctor to show him the container of Morton salt). :eek:

Someone better inform all the millions of restaurants across the country that they are about to get a nasty visit from OSHA.

Evan
01-04-2010, 09:08 AM
You wouldn't want to go near any of that stuff, much less roll around in it at the beach, or let your kids play in the stuff.

The problem is is that the MSDS cries wolf on everything, making it useless if you're trying to find out something like "is it true that welding on galvanized steel is bad for you?" [from personal experience, yes...]


That MSDS is not crying "wolf". It's very accurate and doesn't overstate the issue. You really don't want to inhale crystalline silicon materials such as fine sand from sand blasting. It will cause you health problems. They aren't making it up and the only hazards they identify are eye irritation and the possibility of silicosis from inhalation.

BTW, Crushed glass is ok because it is an amorphous material.


On salt, just try eating a tablespoon of it neat. Have a bucket handy. It's suprisingly toxic because it upsets the body's electrolyte balance leading to convulsions and possibly death. As long as it is accompanied by foods containing potassium such as potatos the balance is maintained, french fries being an example.

SpyGuy
01-04-2010, 09:24 AM
On salt, just try eating a tablespoon of it neat. Have a bucket handy. It's suprisingly toxic because it upsets the body's electrolyte balance leading to convulsions and possibly death. As long as it is accompanied by foods containing potassium such as potatos the balance is maintained, french fries being an example.

Agreed. But "consume in moderation" is a far cry from the unequivocal "Do not ingest" per the MSDS.

JCHannum
01-04-2010, 09:38 AM
If PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench contain 60% of anything, it is kerosene, naptha and/or mineral sririts. The balance is other petroleum distillates and CO2 propellant.

Here are the MSDS's for both;

http://www.fastenal.com/web/msds/getmsds.ex?sku=63247

http://www.gunk.com/msds.asp

Neither show the presence of tetrachlorethylene, and certainly not 60% if there is any at all present.

Evan
01-04-2010, 09:47 AM
Try going to the source Jim.

http://www.liquidwrench.com/assets/pdfs/msds-penetrating-oil.pdf

http://ixian.ca/pics7/lwrench.jpg

http://www.liquidwrench.com/msds/

JCHannum
01-04-2010, 09:56 AM
I did, those I listed are for the aerosols, which apparently were what beanbag was using.

Evan
01-04-2010, 10:02 AM
The one I listed is also for the aerosol.

hardtail
01-04-2010, 10:58 AM
It's possible also that repeated exposures are not tolerated as well as previous exposures. You might find that you won't be able to handle it at all in the future. I have an exhaust fan in my basement shop that sucks air right at floor level and expels it- just as a precaution in case heavier than air gasses would be present from something I'm doing. My plan was to make that system a heat exchanger- suck an equal volume of outside air in while blowing the floor level air out, and preheat the outside air with the exhaust air. Maybe that would be a futile effort, I don't know. Might be better to just preheat the incoming air with an electric element if it's too cool.

HD had a unit just like you want for around $6-800 IIRC, I was asking the salesman what the % efficiency the heat exchanger claimed to be? he just said thats all you need and install it........I tried to explain that nothing is 100% efficient and if that was the case you could turn it on in Sep and never start your furnace.......still a blank stare........it would eventually freeze your house without some external heat souce........still blank.......LOL

Hard to say on the aerosols, was doing the slave and master cylinders on my Dads Ford Ranger last winter and he would crawl under to help and all of a sudden he went outside and didn't come back, found him puking and feeling weird, I was worried it might be a heart attack but he was off for a couple days and I think it was his ears that started it??????

lazlo
01-04-2010, 11:04 AM
Penetrating oil, whether Kroil, or PB Blaster, or my new favorite: LPS's KB88, is just machine oil with a solvent to carry it to the joint.

Ed's Red (ATF plus Acetone) is a hillbilly recipe that works just as well. But in any case, you're dealing with powerful solvents, so you need to keep it ventilated or you'll get solvent headaches.

The tetrachloretheylene in the LiquidWrench is the active ingredient in the "non-chlorinated" brake cleaners (Red CRC brake clean, for example). It's great for cleaning small components without leaving a residue.

Evan
01-04-2010, 11:21 AM
For some reason Liquid Wrench calls their product "penetrating oil" too even though it is listed as possibly being 100% trichlor. Not something I would want to be spraying near my face while working under a vehicle. It is also absorbed through the skin and can make your skin fall off according to the MSDS.

JCHannum
01-04-2010, 01:09 PM
It is doubtful the Liquid Wrench with the tetrachlor is an aerosol as no propellant is listed. It is listed as a non-flammable penetrant.

At any rate, it is obvious that there are multiple formulas for Liquid Wrench, some with carbon tetrachlor, some without. It is not clear if the OP used aerosol or not, or even if he used Liquid Wrench at all as he mentions PB Blaster, which does not appear to contain carbon tetrachlor. It does pay to look at the materials used and be aware of hazards involved.

Evan
01-04-2010, 01:24 PM
It is doubtful the Liquid Wrench with the tetrachlor is an aerosol as no propellant is listed. It is listed as a non-flammable penetrant.


Carbon tetrachloride and trichloroethylene aren't the same thing. The MSDS gives the usual admonition against heating the container above 120 F or it may explode. They show an image of an aerosol can in the link to the product MSDS. The vapor pressure of Trichloroethylene at standard temperature is 2 psi so it doesn't need a propellant.

Do you have some sort of point to make Jim? I'm not making this up.

JCHannum
01-04-2010, 01:51 PM
Sorry, the carbon was a typo. Not trying to prove anything other than that there are several different formulations of Liquid Wrench, and absent further information, no conclusions as to the composition of the product the OP used can really be made. That is if it was Liquid Wrench at all.

I did not make up the MSDS I posted either, it came from this site;

http://www.gunk.com/msds.asp

beanbag
01-04-2010, 03:54 PM
First of all - you should have read and where necessary abided by and complied with the Material Safety Data Sheet/s (MSDS/'s) available from the manufacturer:

http://www.imperialinc.com/msds0065030.shtml

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pb+blaster+msds&meta=&aq=4&oq=PB+Blaster

You should stick to the "know so" instead of "think so" or sheer conjecture or uninformed advice or comment.

I did not mention that I had to leave for far away shortly after getting gassed, so I don't know the exact product. Otherwise I would have looked it up. I also looked at the msds sheets for a few variants, which mostly said to go get some fresh air.

Sophiedoc
01-04-2010, 04:43 PM
Trichlorethylene was used by the Germans to clean submarines in WW2 and the sailors would sometimes pass out and fall in the water.Years ago it was used as a self administered type of anesthesia(Under supervision) using a Duke inhaler for minor surgical procedures,deliveries etc.Found to be dangerous about the same time carbon tet. hit the fan for common use.

oldtiffie
01-04-2010, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
First of all - you should have read and where necessary abided by and complied with the Material Safety Data Sheet/s (MSDS/'s) available from the manufacturer:

http://www.imperialinc.com/msds0065030.shtml

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...q=PB+Bl aster

You should stick to the "know so" instead of "think so" or sheer conjecture or uninformed advice or comment.


I did not mention that I had to leave for far away shortly after getting gassed, so I don't know the exact product. Otherwise I would have looked it up. I also looked at the msds sheets for a few variants, which mostly said to go get some fresh air.

As a general statement.

That is the re-active and "she'll be OK (on the day)" approach which is rarely risk-free.

If anything of an adverse nature happens its too late.

I prefer the pro-active approach in that if I haven't read and accurately recall it already, I will chase up the MADS and plan what I am going to do accordingly.

Injured lists are full of the hairy-chested, "six-packed", testosterone-soaked "heroes" and "know it alls".

Knuckle-dragging "Work-shop warriors" are something I can do without - period.

radkins
01-04-2010, 06:02 PM
The problem with the MSDS is that *everything* is bad. Let me paste in an example:



SAND, WASHED AND DRIED

1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Agate; Onyx; Quartz; Silica, crystalline quartz; Silicon dioxide
CAS No.: 14808-60-7
Molecular Weight: 60.08
Chemical Formula: SiO2
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 3382, 7023
Mallinckrodt: 7062

2. Composition/Information on Ingredients

Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
--------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ ---------
Quartz 14808-60-7 90 - 100% Yes

3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
WARNING! HARMFUL IF INHALED. OVEREXPOSURE MAY CAUSE LUNG DAMAGE. MAY CAUSE EYE IRRITATION. INHALATION CANCER HAZARD. CONTAINS QUARTZ WHICH CAN CAUSE CANCER. Risk of cancer depends upon duration and level of exposure.

SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Cancer Causing)
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 1 - Slight
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: Green (General Storage)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Acute pneumoconiosis from overwhelming exposure to silica dust has occurred. Coughing and irritation of throat are early symptoms.

Ingestion:
No adverse health effects expected.

Skin Contact:
No adverse effects expected.

Eye Contact:
May cause irritation, redness and pain.

Chronic Exposure:
Inhalation of quartz is classified as a human carcinogen. Chronic exposure can cause silicosis, a form of lung scarring that can cause shortness of breath, reduced lung function, and in severe cases, death.

Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Inhalation may increase the progression of tuberculosis; susceptibility is apparently not increased. Persons with impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of this substance. Smoking can increase the risk of lung injury.

[much more snipped]



You wouldn't want to go near any of that stuff, much less roll around in it at the beach, or let your kids play in the stuff.

The problem is is that the MSDS cries wolf on everything, making it useless if you're trying to find out something like "is it true that welding on galvanized steel is bad for you?" [from personal experience, yes...]



Definitely not overstated but unfortunately a lot of people think it is and use the stuff carelessly. The most notable abuse is in sandblasting when an uniformed (or just won't believe it!) person uses silica sand as a blasting media with improper or no breathing protection thinking that "just this once won't hurt anything", WRONG! Just one exposure such as that will do damage even if it is not noticeable at the time and what that MSDS is calling Chronic exposure can be a very short time indeed!

oldtiffie
01-04-2010, 06:35 PM
Spot on Radkins.

I suggest that some (well those who can) read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_blasting

And for the "knuckle-draggers":

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Modern_man1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Strolling1.gif

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Life_in_oldies_after_all.gif

quasi
01-04-2010, 08:37 PM
Ed's Red is equal parts of ATF, Kerosene, Mineral Spirits, and Acetone with an option of adding some Lanolin.

KIMFAB
01-04-2010, 11:25 PM
Carb and brake cleaners are also not good.
Also cleaning metal with any of these products in the open air, letting dry and then welding it can cause problems because of porous sections.

Fasttrack
01-05-2010, 12:11 AM
That MSDS is not crying "wolf". It's very accurate and doesn't overstate the issue. You really don't want to inhale crystalline silicon materials such as fine sand from sand blasting. It will cause you health problems. They aren't making it up and the only hazards they identify are eye irritation and the possibility of silicosis from inhalation.

BTW, Crushed glass is ok because it is an amorphous material.


On salt, just try eating a tablespoon of it neat. Have a bucket handy. It's suprisingly toxic because it upsets the body's electrolyte balance leading to convulsions and possibly death. As long as it is accompanied by foods containing potassium such as potatos the balance is maintained, french fries being an example.


Hahaha - I used to eat teaspoons of salt, no joking. You get all kinds of funny looks for downing a spoonful of salt but I never made myself sick. I used to have these terrible cravings for salt and I still eat a really high sodium diet. My blood pressure, however, is still extremely low - in fact it is so low that it causes me trouble sometimes. A whole tablespoon, though ... now that's something to try ... :D

Evan
01-05-2010, 01:21 AM
I'm the same way. As far as I am concerned salt is an essential food group. :D

But, I always eat it with something that really needs salt to balance the potassium, like home made french fries 3 or 4 times per week. :D

Salt doesn't automatically raise your blood pressure. It is a genetic trait that some people are sodium sensitive. If you aren't then it has no effect.

Jack F
01-05-2010, 01:48 AM
Beanbag,

How old are you? Not trying to be funny but 2+ years ago I started feeling dizzy and nausea. Not real bad to begin with but got worse the next day. Third day got so bad I went to the doctor (drove myself and almost barfed). He took one look at me, asked a few questions then told me I had involuntary vertigo. He said it happens to older people and there is no treatment except to take it easy for a few days and it will go away. It did. It has to do with the inner ear getting some "stuff" in them and it will go away. Not saying this is what you have but if it has gone away it might be. BTW. This happened when I was 65.

Let us know what happens.

Jack.

beanbag
01-05-2010, 03:52 AM
Well, I found out that I used Liquid Wrench L112, which "only" contains kerosene, napthenic petrolium distillate, and solvent refined heavy paraffinic stuff. None of these seem like too horrible of an inhalation hazard risk, but I may as well give the manufacturer poison control center a call anyway.

The "knocking the inner ear out of tram" idea might also be possible. I'm in my early 30's now, and haven't had any problems EXCEPT one time in my undergrad days when I woke up and the room was spinning. That lasted a few days, and then went away, never to return. My brother also had "benign positional vertigo" on and off for a few months, if genetics has anything to do with it. Anyway, I've worked underneath my car many times in the recent past, so I hope this isn't the problem, since I would like to continue to do so.

lazlo
01-05-2010, 10:24 AM
That was my point about penetrating oil just being machine oil with a solvent. It sounds like the solvent in the Liquid Wrench rang your bell. So try a different penetrating oil. They all have vastly different smells, according to the solvent they use.

Everybody is different, but I like the smell of PBlaster, and Seafoam is the worst smelling stuff on earth.

It's also possible that you have a natural sensitivity to solvents, which would be bad for a machinist, since just about every chemical we use in the shop is a cornucopia of solvents :)

Open up a can of B-12 ChemTool carburetor cleaner (Acetone + Xylene + Toluene + Methanol + Methyl Ethyl Ketone): it's the strongest, nastiest solvent product I've ever seen -- it literally burns your skin. Take a whiff and see if you pass out :D

hardtail
01-05-2010, 10:59 AM
Beanbag,

How old are you? Not trying to be funny but 2+ years ago I started feeling dizzy and nausea. Not real bad to begin with but got worse the next day. Third day got so bad I went to the doctor (drove myself and almost barfed). He took one look at me, asked a few questions then told me I had involuntary vertigo. He said it happens to older people and there is no treatment except to take it easy for a few days and it will go away. It did. It has to do with the inner ear getting some "stuff" in them and it will go away. Not saying this is what you have but if it has gone away it might be. BTW. This happened when I was 65.

Let us know what happens.

Jack.

Well I wouldn't say nothing can be done........I recall on the news a couple years ago a lady that posessed the ability to manipulate your head to backtrack the path of your eardrum........if your neck didn't snap off from the treatment you were good to go...........LOL I make light of this but for someone suffering the effects it's no joke.

boslab
01-05-2010, 12:11 PM
Dosent sound Trichy to me, you didnt state if there was any taste in your mouth, metallic sort of like tin, could be coincidental and you have picked up a virus and its just finished incubation, either way drink plenty, and take it easy, hope it passes soon.
in addition we should all be very careful when playing with chemicals, they can make us quite ill, btw hows your blood pressure?
mark

Seastar
01-05-2010, 12:56 PM
You could have "ear rocks".
The attack can start while you are on your back, like under a car, and move your head to the side.
They are no joke.
I have had them for 10 years and have an attack about once a year.
They are simple to fix and you don't need a doctor.
Use this method.
http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/disorders/bppv/epley/first.html
Bill

Jack F
01-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Hardtail,

My doctor mentioned the head rocking treatment but said it only worked occasionally and that I should just go home and lie down and it would cure itself. He also said there is a good chance it will come back on occasion:( and there is no need to see a doctor for it.:) I had no idea what was causing the dizzyness, thats why I went to the doc.

Jack.

beanbag
01-06-2010, 02:55 AM
Dosent sound Trichy to me, you didnt state if there was any taste in your mouth, metallic sort of like tin, could be coincidental and you have picked up a virus and its just finished incubation, either way drink plenty, and take it easy, hope it passes soon.
in addition we should all be very careful when playing with chemicals, they can make us quite ill, btw hows your blood pressure?
mark

no metallic taste
doubtful that a virus would start this suddenly
am drinkin and pissin :o
blood pressure normal as of a month ago...

I'm feeling slightly better today, although still a touch off. Was able to get under the car to undo what did me in, and didn't have any problems.