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Carld
01-04-2010, 05:46 PM
I was sitting there thinking, gasoline used to last longer in storage than now.

So, what has happened?

Is it the additives?

When they refract the gas off the crude oil will it store for as long as kerosene will?

If not why not?

It seems like it I buy some gas in the fall for my lawn mower then use it in the spring it smells like, well, **** or something close. It probably is not very friendly to the engine either.

If it's the additives can I buy it without the additives?

Isn't science wonderful, takes a natural produce and makes it, well, a problem.

oldtiffie
01-04-2010, 05:50 PM
Don't get too far "into" sniffing gasoline.

Its called "chroming" here in OZ.


Australia
Australia has long faced a petrol (gasoline) sniffing problem, especially in isolated and impoverished aboriginal communities. Although some sources argue that sniffing was introduced by United States servicemen stationed in the nation's Top End during World War II,[21] or through experimentation by 1940s-era Cobourg Peninsula sawmill workers,[22] other sources claim that inhalant abuse (such as glue inhalation) emerged in Australia in the late 1960s.[1] Chronic, heavy petrol sniffing appears mainly to occur among remote, impoverished indigenous communities, where the ready accessibility of petrol has helped to make it a common substance for abuse.

In Australia, petrol sniffing now occurs widely throughout remote aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory, Western Australia, northern parts of South Australia and Queensland. The number of people sniffing petrol goes up and down over time as young people experiment or sniff occasionally. 'Boss' or chronic sniffers may move in and out of communities; they are often responsible for encouraging young people to take it up.[23]

A 1983 survey of 4,165 secondary students in New Lydiate showed that solvents and aerosols ranked just after analgesics (e.g., codeine pills) and alcohol for drugs that were abused. This 1983 study did not find any common usage patterns or social class factors.[1] The causes of death for inhalant users in Australia included pneumonia, cardiac failure/arrest, aspiration of vomit, and burns. In 1985, there were 14 communities in Central Australia reporting young people sniffing. In July 1997, it was estimated that there were around 200 young people sniffing petrol across 10 communities in Central Australia. Approximately 40 were classified as 'chronic' sniffers. There have been reports of young Aboriginal people sniffing petrol in the urban areas around Darwin and Alice Springs.

In 2005, the Government of Australia and BP Australia began the usage of Opal fuel in remote areas prone to petrol sniffing.[24] Opal is a non-sniffable fuel (which is much less likely to cause a "high"), and has made a difference in some indigenous communities.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhalant

laddy
01-04-2010, 06:01 PM
The gasoline today has so much ethanol in it that it varnishes engines within a month. If you have an old car, engine, chain saw.... etc. Run that thing at least once a month or be prepared to rebuild the carb. Bad Stuff!

Evan
01-04-2010, 06:09 PM
Gasoline isn't a single fraction of petroleum. It contains a raft of different chemicals that are blended to produce a product with consistent properties. The actual blend depends on what is being cracked on any particular day. At the large refiner level gasoline is made as Blendstock called RBOB (Reformed Blendstock, Oxygen Blend). It can be a mix of "natural" octane, hexane, heptane, naptha, and other Alkanes or it may be synthetically made similar molecules. It's usualy a mix of both but the proportions vary.

The synthetic components aren't usually as stable as the "natural" alkanes. Also, if high percentage of heavy stock is used it must be balanced by an equally high percentage of light fractions. The light fractions are very volatile and will easily evaporate with considerable vapor pressure. Worse yet, if there is any alcohol in the blend the vapor pressure increases dramatically making it much easier for the volatiles to escape via venting or a loose cap on a gas can.

If you leave the cap slightly loose on a gas container to prevent it swelling up like a balloon you are allowing all the light fractions to escape every time the temperature changes. Also, heat is the enemy of fresh gasoline and causes chemical reactions between the components to occur that make the gas unusuable. Gas can go bad in just a couple of months if the conditions are poor.

oldtiffie
01-04-2010, 06:22 PM
We can still get ethanol-free gasoline here in OZ.

That's all I use for my CI engines - car, mowers, trimmers, chain saws, garden-tiller etc.

I use very little gasoline in the car as it is converted to run on LPG and only uses gasoline to start the engine and then it switches over to LPG. I do run the car on gasoline occasionally. Some of it might be diluted stuff that could be 12 months or more old - never a problem.

I started a "Honda" mower motor the other day. It had not been started for some where between 1 and 2 years and still had the gasoline in it - never drained. Stared first pull and hasn't missed a beat since - and its had a few hours use since.

The Ethanol industry is trying to haver the Government mandate 10% ethanol but it hasn't happened yet and might not any time soon either.

We do have "E-10" (10% ethanol) mix gasoline here as an option but where I live in OZ, I rarely see anyone filling up with it.



Australia
Main article: Ethanol fuel in Australia
Legislation in Australia imposes a 10% cap on the concentration of fuel ethanol blends. Blends of 90% unleaded petrol and 10% fuel ethanol are commonly referred to as E10. E10 is available through service stations operating under the BP, Caltex, Shell and United brands as well as those of a number of smaller independents. Not surprisingly, E10 is most widely available closer to the sources of production in Queensland and New South Wales where Sugar Cane is grown. E10 is most commonly blended with 91 RON "regular unleaded" fuel. There is a requirement that retailers label blends containing fuel ethanol on the dispenser.

Due to ethanol's greater stability under pressure it is used by Shell in their 100 octane fuel. Similarly IFS add 10% ethanol to their 91 octane fuel, label it premium fuel and sell it more cheaply that regular unleaded. This is converse to the general practice of adding ethanol to a lesser quality fuel to bring its octane rating up to 91.

Some concern was raised over the use of ethanol blend fuels in petrol vehicles in 2003, yet manufacturers widely claimed that their vehicles were engined for such fuels. Since then there have been no reports of adverse affects to vehicles running on ethanol blended fuels.

The United States produces and consumes more ethanol fuel than any other country in the world. Ethanol use as fuel dates back to Henry Ford, who in 1896 designed his first car, the "Quadricycle" to run on pure ethanol.[43] Then in 1908, he produced the famous Ford Model T capable of running on gasoline, ethanol or a combination of both.[43][75] Ford continued to advocate for ethanol as fuel even during the prohibition.[43]

Most cars on the road today in the U.S. can run on blends of up to 10% ethanol, and motor vehicle manufacturers already produce vehicles designed to run on much higher ethanol blends. In 2007 Portland, Oregon, became the first city in the United States to require all gasoline sold within city limits to contain at least 10% ethanol.[76][77] As of January 2008, three states Missouri, Minnesota, and Hawaii require ethanol to be blended with gasoline motor fuel. Many cities also require ethanol blends due to non-attainment of federal air quality goals.[78]


E85 FlexFuel Chevrolet Impala LT 2009, Miami, Florida.Several motor vehicle manufacturers, including Ford, Chrysler, and GM, sell flexible-fuel vehicles that can use gasoline and ethanol blends ranging from pure gasoline all the way up to 85% ethanol (E85). By mid-2006, there were approximately six million E85-compatible vehicles on U.S. roads.[79]

In the USA there are currently about 1,900 stations distributing ethanol, although most stations are in the corn belt area.[80][81] One of the debated methods for distribution in the US is using existing oil pipelines,[82] which raises concerns over corrosion. In any case, some companies proposed building a 1,700-mile pipeline to carry ethanol from the Midwest through Central Pennsylvania to New York.[83]

The production of fuel ethanol from corn in the United States is controversial for a few reasons. Production of ethanol from corn is 5 to 6 times less efficient than producing it from sugarcane. Ethanol production from corn is highly dependent upon subsidies and it consumes a food crop to produce fuel.[45] The subsidies paid to fuel blenders and ethanol refineries have often been cited as the reason for driving up the price of corn, and in farmers planting more corn and the conversion of considerable land to corn (maize) production which generally consumes more fertilizers and pesticides than many other land uses.[45] This is at odds with the subsidies actually paid directly to farmers that are designed to take corn land out of production and pay farmers to plant grass and idle the land, often in conjunction with soil conservation programs, in an attempt to boost corn prices. Recent developments with cellulosic ethanol production and commercialization may allay some of these concerns. A theoretically much more efficient way of ethanol production has been suggested to use sugar beets which make about the same amount of ethanol as corn without using the corn food crop especially since sugar beets can grow in less tropical conditions than sugar cane.[8]



Most of the ethanol consumed in the US is in the form of low blends with gasoline up to 10%. Shown a fuel pump in Maryland selling mandatory E10.On October 2008 the first "biofuels corridor" was officially opened along I-65, a major interstate highway in the central United States. Stretching from northern Indiana to southern Alabama, this corridor consisting of more than 200 individual fueling stations makes it possible to drive a flex-fueled vehicle from Lake Michigan to the Gulf of Mexico without being further than a quarter tank worth of fuel from an E85 pump.[84][85][86]

On April 23, 2009, the California Air Resources Board approved the specific rules and carbon intensity reference values for the California Low-Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS) that will go into effect in January 1, 2011.[87][88][89] During the consultation process there was controversy regarding the inclusion and modeling of indirect land use change effects.[90][91][92][93][94] After the CARB's ruling, among other criticisms, representatives of the US ethanol industry complained that this standard overstates the environmental effects of corn ethanol, and also criticized the inclusion of indirect effects of land-use changes as an unfair penalty to home-made corn ethanol because deforestation in the developing world is being tied to US ethanol production.[88][95][96][97][98][99][100] The initial reference value set for 2011 for LCFS means that Mid-west corn ethanol will not meet the California standard unless current carbon intensity is reduced.[87][98][100][101]

A similar controversy arose after the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) published on May 5, 2009, its notice of proposed rulemaking for the new Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS).[102] The draft of the regulations was released for public comment during a 60-day period. EPA's proposed regulations also included the carbon footprint from indirect land-use changes.[103][104] On the same day, President Barack Obama signed a Presidential Directive with the aim to advance biofuels research and improve their commercialization. The Directive established a Biofuels Interagency Working Group comprise of three agencies, the Department of Agriculture, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the Department of Energy.[105][106] This group will developed a plan to increase flexible fuel vehicle use and assist in retail marketing efforts. Also they will coordinate infrastructure policies impacting the supply, secure transport, and distribution of biofuels. The group will also come up with policy ideas for increasing investment in next-generation fuels, such as cellulosic ethanol, and for reducing the environmental footprint of growing biofuels crops, particularly corn-based ethanol.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Fasttrack
01-04-2010, 06:29 PM
It's the ethanol in the fuel. The more volatile the components, the quicker it will evaporate and leave behind nothing but smelly "varnish" :)

<edit> Oop - they beat me to the punch.

Black_Moons
01-04-2010, 06:37 PM
How about those 'fuel stabliser' bottles I see at hardware stores often, designed for 'storage' of fuel and small engines.
Anyone have any comments/insights on those?

EVguru
01-04-2010, 06:41 PM
Modern petrol is in many respects way better than the fuels of old. When I tear down an engine these days there's usually very little deposit on pistons, valves and ports compared to years gone by. It does contain a larger proportion of 'volatiles', zylene, toluene, methanol, etc. which can evaporate and if I'm laying a bike up for a while, I'll try and do so with a full tank to minimise the surface area to volume ratio.

My 1977 Morini 3 1/2 Sport hadn't been run for over 3 months, but started 2nd kick the other day. I run Shell V-Power (used to be Optimax) in all the Morinis. They run a little crisper and use a little less. Rated now at 98 ocane, it's more like the old 5 star fuel and 101 octane on the old rating. The Gilera CX gets ordinary 95 octane being a 2 stroke, albeit quite a highly tuned one cranking out around 30bhp from 125cc.

Big T
01-04-2010, 06:47 PM
How about those 'fuel stabliser' bottles I see at hardware stores often, designed for 'storage' of fuel and small engines.
Anyone have any comments/insights on those?

Good stuff for all your 2 strokers that needs premix gas/oil. I will mix up 2.5 gallons of gas/oil and use the heavier rate of the additive (Which is for storing). I will use it up over a period of a year to year and a half, and have had no problems with those finicky carbs on weedeaters, chainsaws etc.
The stuff I use is sold by Briggs & Stratton.

MotorradMike
01-04-2010, 06:52 PM
How about those 'fuel stabliser' bottles I see at hardware stores often, designed for 'storage' of fuel and small engines.
Anyone have any comments/insights on those?

I run Stabil through all the engines I store over the Winter. The bike has gas in it but the chainsaw, lawnmower, and weedeater get run dry.

Quite frankly, I don't know if it does any good but I have never had trouble.

70 malibu
01-04-2010, 07:30 PM
I used stabil once,, in a 16hp briggs on my welder, a 10hp tecumseh in a 112 John Deere, and a briggs on a push mower. None would start the following spring and all had to have the carbs rebuilt or cleaned. Was the worst gummed up mess I've ever had to deal with.
No more stabil for me ! I run them dry and let them sit now,, no problem !

camdigger
01-04-2010, 07:38 PM
Gasoline is, like Evan says a blend of a wide spectrum of relatively light hydrocarbons. They are not all simple molecules either, but contain lots of readily polymerized hydrocarbons (that's where the "varnish" comes from). The light stuff (low molecular weight like say C5-C8) flashes off at low temperatures and is increased deliberately in colder weather to 1.) get rid of it and 2.) to help cold starting.

Fuel composition will change with the season, where you are (climate wise) will determine how much.

FWIW, diesel is even more finicky. The molecular weights of components that make up diesel include parafins that will precipitate out and plug off fuel lines in cold weather. You can see the fuel turn cloudy in a sample jar. I once spent several days in NE BC right after New Years waiting on mechanics dealing with equipment disabled by gelled fuel after it had been sent up from Huston Tx. The yard hands in Texas had kindly filled all the tanks before they left:rolleyes: .

Evan
01-04-2010, 07:42 PM
Alcohol makes the problem worse but it isn't the main cause. Modern gasoline has a lot more volatiles in the mix. Also, the chemicals now used to make gasoline react with each other at relatively low (but elevated) temperatures. Storing a gas can in the sun is a very bad idea.

Cross post.

aboard_epsilon
01-04-2010, 08:18 PM
volatiles

what i don't understand with this premium petrol super unleaded.

is why aren't the volatiles just sucked out strait away by the the modern cars tank breather system ...that feeds all fumes to the manifold .......so all could be gone in a matter of a couple of miles on a hot day .or if you're on a rough road.

all the best.markj

J Tiers
01-04-2010, 08:38 PM
The United States produces and consumes more ethanol fuel than any other country in the world.


I was going to ask you to document that, but I see the worthlesspedia link......... so I won't bother.

Brazil clearly has the highest, even worthlesspedia admits that, considered on a per-capita basis. They only just lose on an absolute basis.



Most cars on the road today in the U.S. can run on blends of up to 10% ethanol, and motor vehicle manufacturers already produce vehicles designed to run on much higher ethanol blends.

The S10 I have is designed to run on E85 (85% ethanol). I never have tried it.

As far as I can see, ethanol is basically a scam. Not that it won't work, it can, and can produce a substantial net energy output after all losses and production costs etc. It's a scam the way it is promoted in a consequences-be-damned manner.

oldtiffie
01-04-2010, 08:54 PM
You are right JT.

It is a scam.

In favour of the rural producers of the feed-stock for ethanol - sugar cane, corn, beet, etc. etc.

So it is forced on the user/consumer and no doubt is subsidised by the US government as well as dumping it overseas.

That loss of other-wise food-producing agricultural land forces up the price of foods etc.

You've got a pretty effective rural/ethanol lobby in the US.

If you don't like Wikipedia - try Google:
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=ethanol&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

Or perhaps ask a "flack" from your US-based Ethanol/Agricultural industry lobby or spin-meisters.

J Tiers
01-04-2010, 09:16 PM
Wikipedia has become very 'polluted" whenever there is a politically sensitive issue, or an issue with heavy business lobbying......

On other matters it often is very good.

The Brazilian per-capita is still higher than the US though......

LtEngine10
01-04-2010, 09:31 PM
I do not use any fuel stabilizers while it is true the ethanol in the gas will make it evaporate faster one of the concers you need to be aware of is a condition called washdown when using the fuel in a 2 cycle engine. water mixes with the ethanol (a hydroscopic liquid) and in the combustion chamber this h2o flashes to steam causing an overheating problem and melting the piston to the cylinder.

As a side not this in a bad thing when youare on the roof a building that is burning and you want to cut a ventilation hole.

anyway I don't use the stabilizers or anything for that matter and I have not had a problem.

Some food for thought is adding acetone to the gas, some say it will increase mileage I found it to increase power and stop "pinging" from the low octane fuels.

check out google acetone in gas or look at this site http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

have fun and while you are playing with the gasoline keep the ignition sources away...

airsmith282
01-04-2010, 09:39 PM
I was sitting there thinking, gasoline used to last longer in storage than now.

So, what has happened?

Is it the additives?

When they refract the gas off the crude oil will it store for as long as kerosene will?

If not why not?

It seems like it I buy some gas in the fall for my lawn mower then use it in the spring it smells like, well, **** or something close. It probably is not very friendly to the engine either.

If it's the additives can I buy it without the additives?

Isn't science wonderful, takes a natural produce and makes it, well, a problem.


put in 30 mil per gallon of gas stabilzer and it should be fine i never get problem doing it this way , any of my machines that have gas left in them get 15 mil each and fire right up in the spring no problem...

i dont follow the directions and get good results

Evan
01-04-2010, 09:59 PM
Some food for thought is adding acetone to the gas, some say it will increase mileage I found it to increase power and stop "pinging" from the low octane fuels.


It is a total scam. There is no scientific explanation for the claimed effect. The explanations are nothing more than scientific sounding gibberish. There isn't a single professionally conducted test that shows any benefit.

gunbuilder
01-04-2010, 10:23 PM
...
This is at odds with the subsidies actually paid directly to farmers that are designed to take corn land out of production and pay farmers to plant grass and idle the land, often in conjunction with soil conservation programs, in an attempt to boost corn prices...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
Ok, the source explains the lack of accuracy.

Where are all these "subsides", I want to get in on the gravy train? I have been to the FSA office trying to get on the bandwagon. No such programs were available as of the last time I contacted them. I wanted to enroll 15 acres for wildlife habitat, all the acres are full not even a waiting list.

The big advantage with Ethanol to me is it is renewable.

Thanks,
Paul

whitis
01-04-2010, 11:24 PM
The gasoline today has so much ethanol in it that it varnishes engines within a month. If you have an old car, engine, chain saw.... etc. Run that thing at least once a month or be prepared to rebuild the carb. Bad Stuff!

One of the things that was noticed with biodiesel (which contains methanol or ethanol) is that you had to replace your fuel filter about a month after switching. Not because biodiesel/alcohol was gumming up the engine/filter but the exact opposite. It cleaned all the gunk out of your fuel system. The gunk deposited in the filter was the from the petroleum fuel you had used prior to switching.

Of course, with an ethanol blend fuel which contains a solvent (ethanol) that can hold gunk in solution, refineries may exploit that by putting more gunk in the petroleum portion which means you have a problem when the alcohol evaporates. If that is the case, without the ethanol, that petroleum product would probably gum up your engine in no time.

Carld
01-04-2010, 11:51 PM
:eek: wow, 3 pages and still I am wondering, if the gas is refined out of the crude and nothing is added to it it is pure gas. Will that pure gas be better in an engine than the adulterated gas we buy at the pump?

What about white gas, the Coleman fuel, what is that?

x39
01-05-2010, 12:18 AM
The big advantage with Ethanol to me is it is renewable.

Problem being that it takes one gallon of petroleum to produce 1.3 gallons of corn ethanol. Corn ethanol has 67% of the btu's of petroleum, making for a 13% net loss of energy.

Greg Q
01-05-2010, 12:20 AM
It's a theoretical question because "Gasoline" is a marketing term, not a chemical formula.

As an aside, I cannot get my Honda mower to start on fuel that is more than two months old. The stabiliser additive gets me another couple of months at best.

Greg

CCWKen
01-05-2010, 12:34 AM
The petrolpuke they sell down here starts smelling like linseed oil after about a week in the gas cans. It still runs good in the 4-cycle engines though. The gas stabilizer does help extend the storage life.

Tiffie - In the US it's called "Huffing". Everything from spray deodorant to paint.

oldtiffie
01-05-2010, 12:46 AM
It's a theoretical question because "Gasoline" is a marketing term, not a chemical formula.

As an aside, I cannot get my Honda mower to start on fuel that is more than two months old. The stabiliser additive gets me another couple of months at best.

Greg

That's odd Greg as I live not too far from you I'd guess.

My 4-stroke Honda, Briggs & Stratton, and my 2-stroke Echo and Stihl engines all start pretty well first or second time - every time.

I stay right away from the 10% Ethanol pump!!!

Given that my Falcon car has a 50+ litre tank and that it is only used for starting the engine to run on gasoline I'd potentially have the E-10 clagging up my whole fuel system.

38_Cal
01-05-2010, 12:55 AM
What the hey, I'll jump in with my dos centavos worth, too. I'll start out by telling you that I live in corn country, but I'm not a farmer. Ethanol from corn is just another farm welfare scam. Corn state congresscritters push it not because it's good or helpful, but it gives the farmers another market. In my vehicles, I generally get about 10% lower mileage when I have to use ethanol blends. Iowa subsidezes gasahol at the pump with lower taxes, and it's generally about 10 to 12 cents cheaper than the better stuff...but at a pump price of $2.59/gal in town today, 10 cents cheaper makes no sense with a car that gets 30 mpg without ethanol. Even my wife's car, which averages 24 mpg, gets the more expensive stuff.

Change of track...if we had mini-cars we could get better mileage, but this is Bambi country, and I would rather have a bit more sheet metal between the deer and us on the highway at 60 or the interstate at 75 miles per hour!

Stay warm...it's right at zero now, and headed lower!

David

Evan
01-05-2010, 01:10 AM
if the gas is refined out of the crude and nothing is added to it it is pure gas. Will that pure gas be better in an engine than the adulterated gas we buy at the pump?


In theory you can produce gasoline that is pure hexane or heptane. It has zero octane content which means the comparative octane number is as low as zero. Pure octane is 100 and is the standard to which the ease of ignition of all the alkanes is compared. To give a gasoline a specific octane value heptane, hexane and octane are blended in particular ratios with the result having an ignition characteristic that is some tested percentage of that of octane. That determines the octane number.

The problem is that if you make gasoline that way you may only be able to extract perhaps 25% of a barrel of crude as gasoline. By cracking the molecules and reassembling them as volatile fractions it is possible to produce as much as 80 percent or higher gasoline from a barrel.

There is no single chemical compound that can be called gasoline with the exception of so called "white gas". White gas is pure naptha and it is entirely possible to run an IC engine with it. My Land Rover will run on just about anything as long as it isn't pure diesel since it has spark ignition and only a 7 to 1 compression ratio. You can mix kerosene, alcohol, 50/50 gasoline and diesel, paint thinner, solvent or whatever. As long as it can be ignited the engine will run on it.

Greg Q
01-05-2010, 01:13 AM
It's handy that the Iowa caucuses are first up. The local agricultural lobby gets a disproportionate say in the energy debate as a result. Policy by realpolitik.

Here we can buy 10% blend, which my older car seems to like just fine. No data on mileage as I don't drive it enough to remember. I think I filled it up sometime in October.

Greg

RPM
01-05-2010, 01:36 AM
I look after a friend's old Uniflite powerboat with gas engines and carbs, in the desert at Lake Powell, South Utah. With summer temps getting up to at least 120 degrees,and very low humidity, gas quality becomes a serious problem very quickly, and many carbs have to be rebuilt each season.

But not for me - I have been using an additive called PRI-G, or PRI-D for diesel, which according to PRI-G is used by refiners to assist their storage issues.

http://www.priproducts.com/

I don't have any connection with the company, but in five years we have yet to have a problem with the carbs and gasoline, even when the boat is not used for months on end.

And it's much cheaper than Stabil, about $25 to treat 256 gallons, and it's widely sold in marine stores etc.

This may sound a bit like an advert, but it does work well for me. It may help that the boat has old-style steel gas tanks, unlike the 'modern' plastic ones that are being destroyed by the ethanol :-(
Richard in Los Angeles

kendall
01-05-2010, 02:40 AM
It's handy that the Iowa caucuses are first up. The local agricultural lobby gets a disproportionate say in the energy debate as a result. Policy by realpolitik.

Here we can buy 10% blend, which my older car seems to like just fine. No data on mileage as I don't drive it enough to remember. I think I filled it up sometime in October.

Greg

When they went to 10% here, my mileage dropped from 25mpg to 23 if I'm lucky.
In the last 5 years, the best my truck has run was when I was able to fill up in Ohio with real gas, then again when I went to Virginia and they had both types available.
It doesn't last at all like old gas did, used to fill the tank every fall before I put the bike away and in the spring it would start without a problem, since they've changed the mixture I have had to start draining the tank before storage and using fresh fuel in spring.

Hate it, pay more and get less performance and mileage for the money.

Ken.

Your Old Dog
01-05-2010, 06:39 AM
..............................
The big advantage with Ethanol to me is it is renewable.

Thanks,
Paul

That's why corn made such a good food source. We could feed a hungry world with corn instead of burning it.

J Tiers
01-05-2010, 09:08 AM
Problem being that it takes one gallon of petroleum to produce 1.3 gallons of corn ethanol. Corn ethanol has 67% of the btu's of petroleum, making for a 13% net loss of energy.

You can run the numbers to show that anything is a net loss.....

Most of the more credible* "ethanol is a net loss" calculations I have seen for bio-ethanol, assume exclusive use of corn, which is of course totally insane to begin with, as corn is possibly the LEAST efficient source. Then they assign every possible cost to the produced ethanol, from production of the iron for the tractors on up, assuming those implements are, and can only be, used for growing corn ethanol, and are never used for anything else. it goes on like that.

Finally, they assume that "spent" corn after fermentation is a useless material needing hazmat disposal....... when it can actually be a very useful animal feed. Therefore they assume MORE corn must be grown to feed to animals, and count all those costs in also.

if you look at the production of gasoline, or even diesel, the total amount of fuel used in exploration, production, transportation of fuel, maintenance of fueling facilities, etc, INCLUDING production of all the materials for the equipment, fabrication of equipment, and so forth, the numbers are not so good.

The only reason oil is reasonably cheap is the fact that you basically "pick it up off the ground" for free. Your costs are basically for getting to where it is and carrying it back to where you want it. You need a coal mine to support an oil well.

*credible means not that they are right, but that they at least are reasonably scientifically valid and careful in their work, even if their 'accounting" is erroneous.

Carld
01-05-2010, 09:10 AM
That's interesting Evan. I was pretty sure white gas is naphtha but have wondered about the gasoline we use in engines. So I guess that we have to have all the compounds and additives in gas to make it work. It just seems like gas will not store as well now as it did years ago. That just may be my imagination working though.

As long as I can buy it and it runs the engine it's all I need to know. My Ranger is a flex fuel but I haven't tried anything but gas and the E10 gas.

I don't see much point in using corn for fuel, doesn't seem cost efficient to me. I was under the impression that Europe and South Amer. used more straight Ethanol than others.

x39
01-05-2010, 09:36 AM
You can run the numbers to show that anything is a net loss.....

Most of the more credible* "ethanol is a net loss" calculations I have seen for bio-ethanol, assume exclusive use of corn, which is of course totally insane to begin with, as corn is possibly the LEAST efficient source.

*credible means not that they are right, but that they at least are reasonably scientifically valid and careful in their work, even if their 'accounting" is erroneous.
Given that corn is the predominant source of fuel ethanol in the US, it is reasonable to quote the figures for its use. The source of the figures I cited is National Geographic magazine.

Willy
01-05-2010, 10:04 AM
:eek: wow, 3 pages and still I am wondering, if the gas is refined out of the crude and nothing is added to it it is pure gas. Will that pure gas be better in an engine than the adulterated gas we buy at the pump?

What about white gas, the Coleman fuel, what is that?

Carl the reason I believe you haven't received an answer yet is that no simple one or two paragraph answer exists.

Gasoline or petrol, is a rather generic term referring to what we use in the engines of our cars. In actuality it is a very complex product who's make-up varies not only by geographic boundaries but also by political directives.
We take for granted that it is a simple product because we use it daily and have done so all of our lives.
It would take a petro-chemical engineer to give you a proper answer, and then it would probably be the size of a book. Volumes have been, and are being written on the subject, as the product is constantly changing to reflect not only the demands of the automakers, but also those of governments, and the laws of economics.

So in a nutshell Carl you are going to have to do a little reading if you want what is a very complicated answer to a simple question.

As much as I hate relying on Wikipedia links, I'm not a petro-chemical engineer so bare with me and do some reading here as it really is an interesting subject.

Gasoline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline)

Gasoline additives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_additive)

The additive page, actually many pages, are worth reading as it will give you a lot of insight as to what your original question was about.

And if you are still awake after supper here's a little more from those fine folks at the EPA, who now probably have as big of an impact as anybody as to what gasoline is today.

Gasoline Fuels (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/gasoline.htm)

Sorry that I cannot be more succinct in my answer, but in my estimation I would be doing you a disservice if I tried to BS you with a simple, yet worthless answer.
I'm afraid it's gonna take some readin.
Now read all of those links and try to call me in the morning.:D

Willy
01-05-2010, 10:10 AM
Oh, and on the storage issue.
I used to work with Esso petroleum for about twenty years, and their recommendations at the time, (1992), were that under ideal conditions (underground tanks) the maximum storage life for gasoline was 6 months, For diesel under the same conditions it would be 18 months.

Falcon67
01-05-2010, 10:13 AM
AFAIK, there's no method to "buy" un-additive fuel. They add the blends at the terminal when they fill the tanker. Shell, Conoco, etc out here and all the fuel comes out of the same Western Marketing truck from the same terminal.

I run 93 Exxon premium in the race cars. They sit for 3-4 months every winter with maybe one or two starts depending on the weather and my time allowance. I don't add anything to the fuel. But I don't expect to run at full power in the spring, so I only leave 2-3 gallons in the cars. Same with the mower and regular unleaded.

Seastar
01-05-2010, 10:28 AM
I have a severe vehicle fuel storage problem in that I leave an old car, a diesel tractor some four wheelers and a bunch of yard equipment at my summer cabin in Minnesota all winter. They all have various amounts of fuel in them when stored.
I never have any problems.
All of my fuel comes from from my own storage tanks and is supplied to me by a local BP distributor. The gasoline is alcohol free "off road" fuel.
The diesel is nothing special.
I typically use 2/3 to 3/4 of the tanks capacity each year and have them filled in the fall before we leave.

At my Indiana home the car and yard equipment have constant fuel/varnish problems when stored over the summer.. They all use 10% alcohol fuel from local service stations..

The difference may be that the Minnesota vehicles are stored during very low temperatures (-38F yesterday) and the Indiana vehicles are in a garage that can reach 100F in the summer.

I do believe that the alcohol makes the problem much worse.
Bill

Dawai
01-05-2010, 11:00 AM
WELL>. to disable poor people from traveling..

It has worked well.. park anything with moving parts in the fuel system and it dies within a few months.

It's all a conspiracy.. THE MAN is taking us down.. Ha..
(put on the tin foil hat now)

I parked all my lil expensive engines with 2 stroke fuel in them.. it seems to do little harm to the honda lawnmower which I have "rolled" the tires off of.. (another season or two? I hope)

Car collectors with barns full of hundred thousand dollar cars.. what do they do??

loose nut
01-05-2010, 11:20 AM
Gas sold in summer or year long warm climates now has less volatiles in it so that they can't evaporate and become part of the smog problem. Storage life for this is about a month, afterwords enough of the remaining volatiles are gone so it won't ignite. Blame California for that.

Winter gas has more volatiles in it so it's possible to get it to ignite and with the colder weather they don't evaporate as fast so it lasts longer.

J Tiers
01-06-2010, 09:20 AM
All this talk about old gas not working...... I use year+ old gas, and it ignites fine, causes no particular problem, and the mowers etc work just fine..... They even start in the spring, whether I run them dry or not.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

hitnmiss
01-06-2010, 11:09 AM
I agree with Jtiers

For many years my regiment for storing my ATV, mower, 2stroke weedeater and 2 stroke leaf blower has been to park them in the shed and do nothing.

Everything fires up fine when I need it many months later.

Maybe it's the dry climate of Colorado???

Evan
01-06-2010, 11:23 AM
Gas mixed with oil lasts better than plain gasoline. Gas with a lower vapour pressure such as summer gas lasts longer than winter gas. Gas without alcohol last longer than gas with. Summer gas without alcohol mixed with oil will last much longer than any plain gasoline but when it does dry up it is real problem.

Just put a little two stroke oil in the gas before storing a 4 stroke motor and it will work just as well as the expensive stabilizers. Add some fresh gasoline next season and mix it up, then start it.