comp for Mach3

[binfordw]

I'm in the process of setting up a new X3 cnc mill, and have been reading through the Mach3 software I have. I had planned on using my laptop to run Mach3, but from what Ive gathered I will not be able to, as it does not have a parallel port to connect to the breakout board. Mach3 specifically says usb to parallel adaptors do NOT work for this either.

Will I have to buy a new cheap desktop pc with a parallel port/ or a parallel port card to install on the mobo, or is there something else I can do?

[jacampb2]

I'm in the process of setting up a new X3 cnc mill, and have been reading through the Mach3 software I have. I had planned on using my laptop to run Mach3, but from what Ive gathered I will not be able to, as it does not have a parallel port to connect to the breakout board. Mach3 specifically says usb to parallel adaptors do NOT work for this either.

Will I have to buy a new cheap desktop pc with a parallel port/ or a parallel port card to install on the mobo, or is there something else I can do?

You could try the smooth stepper. Everyone that has them raves about it. It is a USB breakout board that works with mach3.

Here's a link:

http://www.warp9td.com/

Later,
Jason

[John Stevenson]

Don't bother the SS still isn't developed.
Just get a cheap desktop, I just bought 10 off Ebay for £85 the lot and even got them delivered.

[jacampb2]

Don't bother the SS still isn't developed.


Huh? I know two people running them. It has been available for over a year now. What do you mean by not developed? Still buggy?

[BobWarfield]

I have one. It works pretty well.

However, the device is still under development and lacks several key features. Support has been hit or miss for me because the owner doesn't really frequent his own support boards very much.

OTOH, I am told he is reachable via email, and I have seen some evidence he is a little more attentive to the boards. Also, I haven't really needed much support so far (knock on wood).

I would say there are enough of them out there that you can get one to work pretty well. Biggest missing thing for me is backlash comp, which has been promised for a long time but still isn't here.

As John says, for a newcomer, the easiest and most reliable approach would be to stick with a parallel port unless you just feel a need to experiment. That's Mach3's power alley, and that will be the config that works best, has the fewest bugs, and is the most up to date for the foreseeable future.

The Smoothstepper is also not especially cheap.

Cheers,

BW

[RB211]

You want an external stepper controller. Instead of relying on timed pulses from the computer which WILL vary due to other processes, you want the computer to offload the instructions to a dedicated stepper controller that drives the steppers without worry of timing issues. I developed a stepper controller for bipolar motors using an AVR 8 bit mcu. Granted being 8 bit, it would be hard to drive more than two steppers at the same time. I think a 16bit ARM processor with a Gcode interpreter would be the cats meow. Of course others have done it I am sure and sell it for an abundance.

[John Stevenson]

Perhaps you could post a link to one with the same features as mach for the same price ?
.

[beanbag]

Biggest missing thing for me is backlash comp, which has been promised for a long time but still isn't here.

BW

When I asked Tormach about Mach3's backlash comp, they claimed that it didn't work very well, for reasons that I don't remember. Tormach's Mach3 has this feature disabled.

[macona]

The backlash comp works fine with servos and so-so with steppers. Steppers just dont have the acceleration capabilities to compensate at direction changes. Lost steps can happen.

[John Stevenson]

Backlash comp is a kludge anyway regardless of steppers or servo's

When doing a linear move that changes direction the backlash cop has to apply so many steps to take this up before the next cut, as these cuts are at feed rate the speed normally isn't an issue with either steppers or servo's able to move fast enough as the pulse train is far faster than feed rates, unless we are talking about routers of something moving at very high speed.

Remember an early PII computer is far faster than a CNC machine.

Where backlash compensation falls over is doing circles, at each quadrant point it has to seamlessly change direction but the problem isn't the speed but the backlash itself.

Regardless of where the computer tells the tool to be as it changes direction the action of the cutting tool will allow it to grab the work and pull or push it depending on tool rotation and direction of cut.

Backlash comp isn't a servo v stepper battle but a battle over mechanical slop and rotating cutters.

.

[Hollowbuilt]

I was told the main reason for not being able to use the laptop is that the 5 volts is not available.

Further, Window XP is the newest version of windows that works on Mach 3

There is a driver test that is used on the pc that shows whether the pulses on the microprocessors clock are stable enough to use .

I got a desktop for next to nothing and dedicated it for the purpose.

Regards,
Chris

[Hood]

I was told the main reason for not being able to use the laptop is that the 5 volts is not available.

The main reason Laptops are hard to get working with Mach is that they have lots of power management features to conserve battery power and they are often hard to disable, this can adversely affect the pulsing.




Further, Window XP is the newest version of windows that works on Mach 3
Mach will run under both Vista and Windows 7

Hood

[macona]

Backlash comp is a kludge anyway regardless of steppers or servo's

When doing a linear move that changes direction the backlash cop has to apply so many steps to take this up before the next cut, as these cuts are at feed rate the speed normally isn't an issue with either steppers or servo's able to move fast enough as the pulse train is far faster than feed rates, unless we are talking about routers of something moving at very high speed.

Remember an early PII computer is far faster than a CNC machine.

Where backlash compensation falls over is doing circles, at each quadrant point it has to seamlessly change direction but the problem isn't the speed but the backlash itself.

Regardless of where the computer tells the tool to be as it changes direction the action of the cutting tool will allow it to grab the work and pull or push it depending on tool rotation and direction of cut.

Backlash comp isn't a servo v stepper battle but a battle over mechanical slop and rotating cutters.

.

But all machines have lost motion no matter how well they are built. You can reduce it as mach as possible but you will have some. After replacing my thrust bearings on my CNC I got it down to .001 to .0015 but it is still there. Thats why all commercial machines have backlash comp.

Kludge or not it is still necessary, Mach's implementation is not optimal but it works. With the stepper systems I had built in the past the compensation times at direction time were slow due to slow accel of steppers. With the servo machines I have built much of that issue was eliminated. I get nice round holes with no marks at the quadrants.

[John Stevenson]

I get nice round holes with no marks at the quadrants.

Same here and I don't have backlash compensation enabled but I do take care with ballscrew mounting and double nuts.

[Hollowbuilt]

Hood,
You seem to have a good handle on mach 3. I am finishing up my machine, and will be a new user of mach 3 mill. So I am relying on what people have told me. I was told that when mach takes over the processor to use its clock or pulse (not sure which it is) that windows tries to get it back or sees it as a threat? Is there a windows version that is best to use? Is 7 or vista better than xp?
Thanks,
Chris

[Hood]

I have never used Vista because as an operating system I dont like it and have never used Windows 7 either although I hear it is quite good.
Personally I would go with XP (or even W2K if the computer was lower spec)
I use XP on all my mach machines (2 mills, coil winder and lathe) and it runs fine but I know a few that use Vista and like it and also a few that are running W7. Art himself has run Mach on W7 and said it worked well but think he continues to use XP mainly and just W7 for testing.

Hood

[macona]

I use XP Pro or Home on all my machines. You can pick up old copies cheap. Go to a thrift store and pick up an old machine with the XP certificate of authenticity. Thats your license right there. Way cheaper than buying a copy of Win 7. I do run Win 7 on my other PC and it is nice, what vista should have been. (Still not as good as a Mac though! ;) )

[binfordw]

I finally got the parallel port installed correctly on the new pc I bought. Was an issue with the digital driver verification, had to turn it off during a reboot to allow the drivers to install.

So now I have a pc (Win7) with mach3 and a parallel port, the next step is to run the driver test I suppose? Ive seen that before somewhere, where do I find it, is that a Mach3 tool from the artsoft website?

[japcas]

It is in the Mach3 folder. You can go to the c drive to find it. Mine is listed right there in the c drive but you may have to look in the program files folder to find it. When you find the mach3 folder go down to driver test folder and double click it and it will open. It is a handy utility so you may want to make a shortcut to it so it will be quicker to use.

[BobWarfield]

But all machines have lost motion no matter how well they are built. You can reduce it as mach as possible but you will have some. After replacing my thrust bearings on my CNC I got it down to .001 to .0015 but it is still there. Thats why all commercial machines have backlash comp.

Kludge or not it is still necessary, Mach's implementation is not optimal but it works. With the stepper systems I had built in the past the compensation times at direction time were slow due to slow accel of steppers. With the servo machines I have built much of that issue was eliminated. I get nice round holes with no marks at the quadrants.

Exactly. Even if you have pretty tight ballscrews and all the rest, you can eek out a little more with the comp.

Best,

BW

[binfordw]

It is in the Mach3 folder. You can go to the c drive to find it. Mine is listed right there in the c drive but you may have to look in the program files folder to find it. When you find the mach3 folder go down to driver test folder and double click it and it will open. It is a handy utility so you may want to make a shortcut to it so it will be quicker to use.


Bah. Now I cant get the Drivertest.exe to run.. When I open the Mach3 folder and click on Drivertest.exe, I get a window that says "No Driver sensed installed. Run Driver Test."


I tried to manually install the driver by following the instructions found on Artsofts website, but they dont seem to make sense. It says to manually install the driver (Mach3.sys) go to control panel, click system, then select hardware and "Add hardware wizard".

There is nothing like this that I can find on XP or Win7- or heck vista for that matter.


So it appears Im stuck yet again.. :mad:

[macona]

Simple dual-boot with winxp if all else fails.

[MrSleepy]

In vista the "add hardware" should be pretty much the same as XP

under win7 its been removed from control panel ..its not there...but if you type " Hdwwiz.exe" in the search bar you can activate it..

Rob

[binfordw]

Well I returned the small pc I bought specifically to run my mill, but the good news is my old pc runs it fine. I'm all setup now, finished some fine tuning today and hopefully tommorrow I'll be able to run a simple program and try out some cuts.

Thanks for all the help

[culturedropout]

Hood,
You seem to have a good handle on mach 3. I am finishing up my machine, and will be a new user of mach 3 mill. So I am relying on what people have told me. I was told that when mach takes over the processor to use its clock or pulse (not sure which it is) that windows tries to get it back or sees it as a threat? Is there a windows version that is best to use? Is 7 or vista better than xp?
Thanks,
Chris

Have you checked out EMC under Linux? It's free. So is Linux. It works great, and you can download a "Live Trial" CD from www.linuxcnc.org that lets you boot Linux from the CD and run EMC without changing anything on your computer. If you like it, the CD has an option to install it on your hard drive. And best of all, it doesn't involve anything from Microsoft!

[Twmaster]

Oh. My. Linux CNC.

Thank you. I'm downloading that CD image right now.

:)

[S_J_H]

I have never liked using Machs Backlash comp. I always keep it turned off.
My mill's X and Y axis have well under .001" backlash using spring loaded double nuts and well adjusted bearings.
My circles are very good.
The small cnc lathes I have built had backlash so low a .0005" DTI will not show it.
Very cool demonstration to run the tool at around 100ipm at a spinning chuck time after time with only .001" clearance and never see a crash.

Try that with backlash comp enabled on a looser machine and let me know how it goes.:eek:

Steve

[macona]

EMC2 still sucks. A nightmare to configure. Better than it used to be though.

It helps to have servos for the backlash comp. With the high speeds you dont notice its there.

[panofish]

Will I have to buy a new cheap desktop pc with a parallel port/ or a parallel port card to install on the mobo, or is there something else I can do?

If your laptop is old like mine and has a pcmcia port... then get a pcmcia parallel port adapter. Mine works great!

http://home.comcast.net/~panofish/pics/pcmcia.jpg

[macona]

Youre lucky it works. Mach is officially not supported on laptops.

[panofish]

The hardware requirements for running Mach3 are very simple and it should run on almost any PC that has a parallel port. I doubt it will work on a "usb to parallel" adapter though. A big compatibility constraint is electrical noise on the parallel port, but I have never seen that problem myself.

On my laptop... I did have to determine the parallel port address which was not the standard 0378 (if memory serves), but Mach3's video tutorial covers this well.

[macona]

There are timing issues in laptops due to power saving circuitry which cant usually be turned off. It causes hiccups in the movement. I have had this with a couple laptops I have tried in the past.

[John Stevenson]

I can't understand the attraction to laptops ?
They are one of the flakiest pieces of electronics out there and usually more expensive that a surplus desktop.

I recently bought some complete Dell desktop systems off Ebay for an average price of £35 each and this included a 15" LCD HP monitor.

It wasn't a deal they were on auction.

When you buy a professional CNC system like a Fanuc it comes in a big box, has only one screen whether you like it or not and odes one job - runs the CNC. Oh and it costs $10,000

Now you buy Mach for $179 and bitch because it won't run on a laptop whilst you are checking email and doing the next drawing.

What a bastard life was never fair was it ?

.

[panofish]

That's good to know... I haven't seen the power problem with my laptop, but I suspect that may be an advantage to using the pcmcia port which likely doesn't have that issue.

I didn't especially desire a laptop for my cnc setup... I already had an old laptop doing nothing... so it cost me nothing to use it. :)

[skunkworks]

'Sucks' is a strong word.

Emc is a powerful/flexable machine control. You can run open loop/ closed loop or any combo of. (real closed loop - not step/dir servos - although emc will run those just fine) I don't know how you would even do my project with mach without spending a ton. I need 3.5 axis with a 16 speed gear box and 60 tool tool changer. I am doing it on the cheap 2 pci mesa cards at $200 a pop. That is 72 i/o each. with 2 servo interface daughter boards at 69 a pop (4 axis each +/-10v and encoder counters). That is a total of 8 axis of closed loop servo control and 96 i/o for $538. I am going to be using most of that. Add some ebay opto22 boards / amc servo drives for cheap and I am going to have a hell of a machine control. I can still use the printer port as I/O if needed. (crazy I know) I will be able to rigid tap. I will know exactly what my following error is. I won't have to re-home after an estop. I am planning on adding spindle load feed control (adjusting feed based on spindle loading. You don't have to be a programmer. - this is all stuff that can be done out of the 'box'. There is also built in ladder logic. Again - very flexable.

Free and open source.

As far a jogging while paused that people complain about... It may be added at some point - but I have never missed it. RFL works great for me - or I split up the program. No big deal. (plus if someone want to add it - they could.)

All it takes is a bit of effort on peoples part to learn something new. It isn't rocket science. For the most part - setting up smaller machines using the wizard is painless.

Here is the computer
http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/computermesa.JPG

Here is the work in progress. Still have a few i/o to hook up.
http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/DSCF1184.JPG

the control box
http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/mostio.JPG

sam


EMC2 still sucks. A nightmare to configure. Better than it used to be though.

It helps to have servos for the backlash comp. With the high speeds you dont notice its there.

[lost_cause]

I can't understand the attraction to laptops ?
They are one of the flakiest pieces of electronics out there and usually more expensive that a surplus desktop.

i don't dispute the flaky part one bit, but i can see a great plus of a laptop - small size, one power cord, no monitor cord, can be closed up when not in use to prevent damage. most of us with home shops of some sort are crammed and cluttered as it is. any way to keep things tidy is good. not to mention, any sort of cnc'd machine is a few thousand dollars, pounds or whatever by the time you add in the machine, cnc parts, and software. is an extra £/$100 or so to get a nicer package for the computer really that bad? too bad laptops aren't always a good choice though.


There are timing issues in laptops due to power saving circuitry which cant usually be turned off. It causes hiccups in the movement. I have had this with a couple laptops I have tried in the past.


That's good to know... I haven't seen the power problem with my laptop, but I suspect that may be an advantage to using the pcmcia port which likely doesn't have that issue.

I didn't especially desire a laptop for my cnc setup... I already had an old laptop doing nothing... so it cost me nothing to use it. :)

i've heard of a good amount of times where a laptop will not work due to these power saving issues. i don't think it's a matter of what bus you are using, but more a case of the inherent power savings built into laptops in general. you may be lucky though, but i wouldn't buy one with the intent of making it work with a cnc package, unless i was wiling to eat the cost & try again. too bad because i think they are a perfect package to use.

if you are a computer nut, you could try building a better box to house all of the required desktop components. can probably get pretty close in size to a laptop if you use a motherboard with onboard video. nothing else needed but the hard drive if you use usb drives to transfer files and unhook the cd/dvd after installation.

[Hood]

can probably get pretty close in size to a laptop if you use a motherboard with onboard video.

You could always get one of these ;)
Of course you would also need an external motion controller such as the SmoothStepper or DSPMC etc as there is no parallel port.
Hood

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2486/artigo.jpg

[macona]

Thats a via system? Dont think they have enough oomph. I was running a P4 2.4 and was getting watchdog trips coming out of wizards. Kind of annoying.

Another option is a Intel Atom board. They are pretty tiny.

You can also get P4 and Socket 479 processor (Mobile CoreSolo/CoreDuo/Core2Duo) boards in microatx format.

I prefer to have a machine with regular computer components over a laptop. Drives are more reliable for one thing. Also I like having a full 15" LCD with touchscreen.

[Hood]

Thats a via system?
Yes, Via Pico.



Dont think they have enough oomph.

I can assure you my lathe and two mills dont complain ;) Never had and issue with them at all and even Rev4 of Mach with its much faster update loop runs very well on them :)

Heres a pic of it in my Beaver NC5 mill (before the wiring was tidied :o )
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6439/viapicoinmill.jpg

Hood

[macona]

Rev 4 of mach is out? Geesh, I have not been keeping up!

I notice that you have one of the AB drives with the devicenet thingy on the side. Do those drives have the same functionality as a regular version without (Step/dir)? I have been weary of bidding on one as the drives from Yaskawa and Mitsubishi tend to leave out stuff like positioning when they have networking built in.

-Jerry

[Hood]

Rev 4 of mach is out? Geesh, I have not been keeping up!

No Rev 4 is still in Alpha but I have been testing it for Brian as it has been progressing :)



I notice that you have one of the AB drives with the devicenet thingy on the side. Do those drives have the same functionality as a regular version without (Step/dir)? I have been weary of bidding on one as the drives from Yaskawa and Mitsubishi tend to leave out stuff like positioning when they have networking built in.

-Jerry

The drives are sercos versions but you can disable the sercos in software which turns them into normal drives with the addition of indexing/homing capability.

Hood