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BillH
10-09-2003, 01:20 AM
Any of you ever watch that nature show? The guy living feet from other bears?
Was an excellent nature show, however the seamingly obvious has happened.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&u=/ap/20031009/ap_on_re_us/bear_attack_3&printer=1

SJorgensen
10-09-2003, 02:07 AM
I saw that news today. He didn't even carry a weapon. I wonder if he wanted to have a weapon when he was watching a Grizzly Bear maul, kill, and consume his girlfriend. As a person who has owned and handled predators for many years, I understand their nature. It isn't about right or wrong, it is just about the prey and the predator. He just forgot that he was the prey. It was only natural that he would be consumed if he didn't use the one human quality of intelligence to protect himself. I agree with you. It was an eventuality. I have many scars from dealing with raptors in falconry over many years. You never blame the animal for being what it is. If you have a pet badger you’d better be careful when you pet it!
Has anyone heard of the story of the scorpion and the tortoise?
“Siegfried and Roy” is now only “Siegfried”

Spence

pgmrdan
10-09-2003, 09:45 AM
.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 11-16-2003).]

L Webb
10-09-2003, 10:58 AM
Brown bears are grizzly bears.
There are variations in color of grizzly bears.

Anybody that walks or camps in bear country without a weapon is a fool. Some people do carry large canisters of pepper spray instead of a gun.

We always joked when we came across fresh bear scat. The standard thing to say was: "remember that you have six bullets in the gun, five for the bear and one for yourself".

Les

Rustybolt
10-09-2003, 11:28 AM
Same bear. Brown bears are coastal and grizzleys are interior.

"Stupid people die in stupid ways.........don't be stupid"

Evan
10-09-2003, 12:10 PM
The brown bear is Ursus Arctos. The grizzly is a sub-species, Ursus Arctos Horribilis.

This is similar to dogs, which are a sub-species of Canis Lupus, the wolf. Dogs are Canis Lupus Familiaris.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-09-2003).]

tonydacrow
10-09-2003, 01:36 PM
A true story:

New Yorker decides he's going to fulfill his dream of fishing in Alaska. On the way to camp, bush pilot asks fisherman about his weapon. "Gun?" says the New Yorker, "I won't touch let alone ever use something as malevolent as a gun. I'm going fishing not hunting!" "You don't understand," says the pilot. "You need a gun as protection against bears." "Perhaps someone as unsophisticated as you may need a gun" says the fisherman, "but I've got OC bear repellant." "OK," says the pilot.

As the pilot makes his banking turn to return to base he sees the fisheman having what appears to be a seizure on the lake shore. He lands and goes to the fisheman to render aid. When he reaches the fisherman to ask if he's OK, the fisherman replies "I don't know. I put the bear repellant on and all of a sudden everything started to burn..."

Greg Parent
10-09-2003, 04:46 PM
We have had a bad year for acorns, Beech nuts and other mast forage that the bears really like this time of year. It will be another "bear in suburbia" year around my city.

Doc Nickel
10-09-2003, 05:09 PM
Tonydacrow- Ah, pepper spray. I've heard that gag enough times I wonder if it's true... but then, some of the things I've seen tourists do... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif It absolutely would not surprise me.

I have personally seen campsites ravaged by bears, and the owner standing there wondering why it happened. Seems when he went off to the river to fish, he'd sprayed the area with "Bear Repellent" pepper spray.

Seems the P-spray can have a negative effect: if the bear in question has managed to raid a campsite before, finding tasty vittles, and is then driven off by the spray... it comes to associate the smell with food. So the pepper spray becomes an attractant.

If you use it for the first time on a particulat bear, it works great. If that bear has found your food and then been driven off, zapping it again just encourages it.

Brown, grizzly and Kodiak bears are all essentially the same. Environment and forage give them slightly different coats and weights, but they're all basically the same bear.

Doc.

Oso
10-09-2003, 06:25 PM
Bears are big, often hungry, they have claws and teeth, and they are strong. It is pretty hard to stop a bear that wants something you have.

Littler bears are only 5 times stronger than you. Big ones are more so.

There isn't any variety of bear that is domesticated.

bears are not used to losing.....

How much more is needed to know about bears to convince a person not to fool with them?


pepper spray would likely only piss off a bear.... might give you a chance to duck while the bear's eyes are watering, but he is still charging, and you are awful darn close. I bet he remembers where you are, swings blind, and gets you anyway.

It ain't only bears. Get a caribou in camp sometime and see how much they can kick to pieces if they get scared.

Big animals are dangerous....get used to it.

I think it is easier to deal with a mountain lion than a bear. The mountain lion will calculate and decide if the meal is worth the chance of getting hurt. Look big and the calculation says to try somewhere else.

The bear doesn't care....remember, he ain't used to losing.....

L Webb
10-09-2003, 06:40 PM
In some parts of Alaska, Kodiak Island in particular, the grizzly bears have come to treat the sound of a gunshot as a dinner bell. They hear a gunshot and they come running to see what there is to eat.

As a side note, the place I have seen quite a few grizzly bears is the road between the village of Yakutat, AK and the Dangerous River.
For some reason they prefer to defecate on the asphalt road. You can come around a curve and there is a bear doing his thing right in the middle of the road.

I guess that bears don't sh*t in the woods if there is a nice road nearby. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Les

Evan
10-09-2003, 08:02 PM
This picture was taken by my wife.

It's Dufus, suddenly realizing that it might not be such a good idea to be standing that close to four young, possibly hungry grizzlys. Run Dufus, run!!!

http://vts.bc.ca/img/griz1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-09-2003).]

Betterhalf
10-09-2003, 08:13 PM
Evan didn't mention that above picture was taken in May of this year. Bears had not been that long out of there dens. These grizzles are young males that are 1 to 2 years of age and mum has sent them on their way. They quite often group together for one summer before they go off to find there own territory. Also got picture of young brown bear about 1/2mile down the road from these guys it kind of looked small after these four.

[This message has been edited by Betterhalf (edited 10-09-2003).]

spope14
10-09-2003, 11:55 PM
OK, Living with bears.

A quick "story", then a few points.

Story: The best way to protect yourself in Yellowstone NP from Griz attack is to wear little bells to warn the bear of your coming, and to carry pepper spray in the event of an attack. The best way to also tell if a griz is in the area is to know how to identify the difference between black bear and griz "Scat". The brown bear eats lots of berries and grass, the griz tends to eat ded things and killed prey. Black bear "scat" is filled with traces of seeds and grass. Griz "scat" tends to be filled with little bells and smells like pepper spray.

Points:
#1 Brown bears can be "Black bears". In my seven years in YNP, and the other say 20 years visiting, I personally ran across a few "brown bears" that were just brown in color, but of the "black" type. Not to be confused with the Griz. The face make-up is different from the get go identification,. The Griz has a "cup shape" around the eyes, the black is conical from nose to eyes.

#2 Been treed by Griz three times in my life, all between 1984 to 1988. Some wit about you, and some fast climbing saves you. Twice by Black bears that could have probably climbed up and got me if the urge hit. Griz tend not to climb the tree to get you, the better method is to whack and bang the tree until you fall out, or the tree falls down. They tend to stop about the time you are swinging around quite crazily like a rag doll, or they get tired and bored if the tree does not topple. I climbed rocks also, had quite a grip. Got "swung" twice. Honest to gawd, been there, done it, and had to buy the new pants. Yes, upon further personal review, the griz does indeed have a cupped face, the black is conical, and both really smell bad, the griz really stinking up the place. I knew the bear was there before I saw it time #2, smelled it. Smelled many a bear more, and knew to think twice before walking forward once.

#3. Have met probably ten "blacks" in YNP, never had a problem. In NH, I have black bear all over the freaking place, kind of like deer. Hey, they are behind my school shop, thus giving incentive for the kids to behave, or they get to take a hike. Real bad now, fall being here, and the bear real hungry and storing up. Actually three different ones at my last count last week by footprint, and two sightings. I leave at night sometimes real nervous, and quite aware, and come in on the occassional early a.m. to footprints on the edge of the parking lot by the "fern bog".

#4. Black love bird feeders in NH. You want to see a bear anywhere in NH, in the middling size city, out in the boonies???? never mind setting out raw meat, rotten garbage, all those real appetizing things for bear...get a common wally world bird feeder, fill it up to the brim, give it a couple of days, you will find it ripped off the pole and probably apart on the ground. Want more bear, get another, thinking at first the "vandal" is just huge squirrel or rotten Juvenile delinquents, and stand around with your little pop-gun and wait to pop the squirrell or JDB. REAL BIG SQUIRRELS, about 300 pounds to 400 for the real biggies, no tail, bad breath, kind of a poor attitude, and no real manners. Saw this at my in-laws, laughed my tail off at my dad in law - he thought it was pesky big squirrels. Bear had the time of its life with "Sams Wild Bird feed", they are NOT gourmets. Have them at my camp in VT also, they create a mess with the ignorant campers who leave messes.

#5 - on a serious note, I have sen the results of a griz attack about 12 hours after, had to identify. Enough said there but that I was not personally involved very close, nor was it a friend, just someone I saw an hour before on the trail in. It is not fun, and bears do damage.

In the end, I carry no gun, for homes are too close where I am, and my bride frowns on guns in the car and home with little kids about.. but do carry a couple of "pepper spray cans". Black bear tend to disapprove of pepper spray more than Griz. Never had "spray" for the hiker in my YNP time, and looking back, wonder how I made it out whole......

[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 10-09-2003).]

SJorgensen
10-10-2003, 12:09 AM
Pepper spray maybe. Bears seem to have a high tolerance to pain. I've seen bears eating honey and it is clear that the swarming bee stings bother them, but do nothing to deter them. They probably concider humans pretty bland tasting, without a little pepper spray.

Spence

SJorgensen
10-10-2003, 01:50 AM
(My Version of an old fable)

A tortoise and a scorpion are trapped on a sand bar and the tide is rising. The scorpion recognizing the problem begs the tortoise to carry him to the shore. The tortoise say's "why should I help you? You’ll sting me to death." The scorpion says no I promise I won't. I mean why would I? If I did both of us would die." This made perfect sense to the tortoise so he agreed and the scorpion climbed onto his back and the tortoise began to swim to shore. On nearing the shore the tortoise felt incredible pain in its neck from the sting of the scorpion. He turned and said "why.... why did you sting me? Now we will both drown. The scorpion said, "I couldn't help it. I'm a scorpion."

Spence

Evan
10-10-2003, 03:05 AM
Pepper spray works, when used properly, especially on bears not habituated to humans (dump bears). A few years ago a fellow who worked in the woods near here, a tree scaler, was taking a lunch break sitting against a tree overlooking a ravine. A sow with two cubs wandered down the ravine, spotted him and took immediate exception to his presence. She charged up the ravine towards him. He was just able to unholster his bear spray and trigger it as she skidded to a stop about two feet from his face. She received the entire dose in the face and eyes and turned and ran, leaving her cubs behind.

The standing wisdom here is that you need two cans of bear spray, one that you use when the bear is too far away, and the second when it really gets too close.

Spraying it around the camp most certainly doesn't work as when the volatile components (capsaicin) evaporates then the site starts to smell like nachos.

wierdscience
10-10-2003, 11:13 AM
All we got down here are the occasional black bear or two,don't know if they ever eat anybody ,but they do love to play with people,I do know if you climb a tree to "out run one"even if the tree is 100' tall and you make it all the way up don't stop cause that black bear will run right up your arse http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Saw one climb one day,six feet at a swipe,lots better than I can do.

Evan
10-10-2003, 05:45 PM
The bears around here (British Columbia) do eat the occasional tourist. Much more dangerous here are the cougars. They especially prey on children, we've had many attacks over the years, quite a few fatal. The big difference is that the bears don't actively hunt people, cougars do. Had a man on Vancouver Island earlier this year who was attacked by a cougar and while it was chewing on his head he managed to get his buck knife out of his pocket, open it and kill the cougar. He didn't do so well but is alive and recovering. Another one a few years ago a cougar swiped a kid off his horse. His mother jumped off hers and died saving the kid. The kid got away, ran back to camp to get his dad. He came back, shot the cougar and had a chance to say goodbye to his wife.

wierdscience
10-10-2003, 08:47 PM
We have believe it or not cougers as well,but I think its a cross between a Florida panther and a couger,well funny thing is the wildlife experts say no they don't exist here,but the wildlife and fisheries people say yes,along with me and a few hundred hundred other people who have seen them up close and personal,my Dad went out in our shed on night,opened the door and fliped the light on and there as big as life sat one,right on top of my tablesaw,the oldman said the cat just got up and calmly walked out the back (open)door of the shop like he owned the place,ever since pop locks the back door http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Thrud
10-11-2003, 03:09 AM
Doc
Best bear repellant I know of is a .300WBM or a .50AE, .454Casull, 1.5oz. slugs, or my sisters meatloaf.

Evan
10-11-2003, 03:21 AM
00 buck followed by 12 guage magnum, solid slug, leaning behind door.

CompositeEngr
10-11-2003, 03:39 AM
Is the meatloaf ammo or bait?

Evan
10-11-2003, 03:42 AM
Not speaking for Thrud but I suppose the correct answer would be "Yes"

dhammer
10-11-2003, 08:28 AM
About 15 years ago while I was hunting deer I sensed something behind me. I turned my head and caught a glimpse of a large cat hightailing into the brush. The hair on my head literally stood straight up! I could swear it was a cougar but we're not supposed to have cougar in Minnesota. The tracks in the snow looked like Lynx but we're not supposed to have Lynx here either. I didn't get a good enough look.. happend too fast but it was a strange feeling to have something tracking me while I was tracking deer.

Oso
10-11-2003, 10:52 AM
Should be bobcat up there, but they generally are not that big....

CompositeEngr
10-11-2003, 06:14 PM
Saw a bobcat last night, about 2 miles from Winona MN.
About 3x the size of a house cat.

dhammer
10-11-2003, 09:36 PM
I've seen bobcats a few times and heard them scream.. what a sound! The animal that was tracking me was way bigger than a bobcat.

SJorgensen
10-11-2003, 10:44 PM
Maybe hikers in your area should wear those rear-view mirrors like bikers wear. Big cats are scary because they are so effective in grasping, and because of the retractible claw their claws are so much sharper than other predators like the bear. The talons of a hawk or eagle are probably sharper but a big cat could hook you with one claw and you wouldn't be going anywhere.

Spence

Mcostello
10-11-2003, 10:55 PM
If a big cat hooked me with one claw I would be going somewhere-- in my pants. Wonder if really nasty smells would repel cats?

Evan
10-11-2003, 11:09 PM
There was a woman killed in Arkansas last year or this year. Sherrif's dept and Fish and Game both claim it was her dogs that did it. The dogs showed no sign of blood or struggle. Big cat tracks were found nearby. Several neighbours saw the cat. The cat came back two days later to try and find the kill, her husband saw it. Her scalp was buried about twenty feet away under sticks and stones, that is cougar behaviour, not dog. The local newspaper participated in the coverup, saying there aren't any cougars/mountain lions/panthers in the state. They did their best to discredit all who said they saw the cat or sign of the cat. The sheriff's deputies contradicted the Sherrif. So did a private wildlife specialist who examined the kill site, he said it was a cougar.

If these cats can live in BC they can live anywhre in North America.

darryl
10-12-2003, 03:35 AM
When I was two, I was outside playing on the farm, and had befriended a bobcat. My dad saw this, came up to me, and said "Darryl, come over here" not too excitedly. I left the cat behind, and later he told me to never go near one again, if I saw one, to just go back to the house. Another time, my sister was outside, she screamed, and we looked out the window. An owl or an eagle, I don't remember which, was trying to carry her away. Her feet were leaving the ground, then touching down again, the bird just didn't have enough power to do it, but almost. It flew up into a tree, dad shot it several times before it fell to the ground. We once had a wild rabbit in the house, and my sister thought it was a pet. She went over to it and it freaked on her. She freaked, Dad freaked, I freaked, and the rabbit became stew. Just a few early memories of life in saskatchewan.

ibewgypsie
10-12-2003, 09:45 AM
Here on the east coast.. We have our share of stupid people.

A tourist decided it would be cute to smear honey on her 2 year old daughters hands and take pictures of the bear licking it off.

You guessed it, no hands. I think the real media was concerned with her losing her daughter's custody.

Stupid people. And from personal experience, if you are in a park, have a woman menustrating and a bear gets wind.. "You kick start a harley really fast". The bear chased us up the road for a bit. I had it cranked to the stops. He would have been really pissed off that it was not a bear to have sex with. It makes horses go crazy too. And pitt bulldogs.

Pitt bulldogs are just excited by a pepper spray. I know cause I raised them at one time. A bear is a lot meaner then any pitt bulldog alive. I remember hearing of a pitt being fought against a baby bear. The pitt bulldog was winning till the bear noticed he was in a fight, then the fight was over and the pitt was in two pieces. A old sioux indian friend told me this.. He bet on the bear. I guess living in a canvas teepee you become aware?

Grampa, told me how to hunt them. Find a tree they raked as to mark thier territory, pee on it and then find a tall tree to shoot them from as they climb up to get you. (black bear) Really a challenge, urine is.. lots of attacks while people are pissing in the dark.

Evan
10-12-2003, 09:59 AM
Ibe,

When I make camp the first thing I do is piss all around the perimeter of the camp. That, and keeping a clean camp, means I have never had a bear in my camp. We have about 120,000 bears in BC.

ibewgypsie
10-12-2003, 10:17 AM
Evan..

I hope that bear with the bad attitude never comes to challenge. I read a lot too. Millions of encounters, one mauling.

David.

Evan
10-12-2003, 10:38 AM
So far, so good. Ya takes your chances when out in the bush. You have to fit in with the crowd out there. Bears don't hunt people, they hunt tasty food tidbits. If they can't smell it they won't bother.

I stayed in an old trappers cabin one time on Bowron Lake Park. The mice had learned where the food is. I had my head propped up and a red flashlight to watch the little bugger as he made his rounds after he thought I was asleep. I keep all my food in an aluminum light weight chest I made so they can't get in. He came out of a hole on the left side of the cabin, ran across the floor, scrambled up a leg of the old decrepit table, reached out a claw on his little foot and snagged the edge of the table top, swung himself up to the table. He sniffed around the chest for about 10 minutes before deciding it wasn't worth it and then proceeded to a small shelf where I had a waterproof baggy of batteries for the cam-corder. Welll... Waterproof baggy, must have food in it. The little ****sucker chewed right through that bag and tasted those batteries. Then he jumped down from the shelf and noticed a cord dangling from my son's pack that we had hung from a nail in the rafters. It was about a foot from the floor. He leaped up, just barely caught it and proceeded to climb up the cord to the pack. At this point I fired up the real flashlight and he made an instant dissapearing act. **** the bears, the mice are the real problem.

ibewgypsie
10-12-2003, 01:28 PM
Evan.

You probably have the same woods problem I have. Dial soap, makes them deer run in herds away from me.. I don't think a bear would think it was tasty.. I think they prefer the gamey, unwashed type. Also, us meat eaters exude a predator smell all our own. The Japanese said they could smell americans forty feet off in the bush. They are mostly vegetarians. The japanese-chinese food we get is nothing like the grease and rice they eat.

A bear in the Georgia Cohutta wilderness found a knapsack full of cocaine, it must have been tasty, they found it dead right there. nose still in the knapsack.

Sometimes when I would wake up with the bottle of whiskey in bed with me, I think of the bear, as my head pounds a drum beat.

Evan
10-12-2003, 02:04 PM
Saw 16 deer on the way to town the other day. We had the windows rolled up so they didn't smell us. My Beardog just about went through the side of the PT Cruiser though. They tease her mercilessly. They know just how far she can reach on her running line and stand just on the other side of the barb wire fence. If she ever gets loose we'll be having venison.

BC21OSH
10-12-2003, 02:06 PM
My son just bought the book " Scholastic Book of Lists". Under "Social Studies, Weird Laws"

In Alaska you can't wake up a bear to take it's picture. ( Like there has to be a law so that some idiot doesn't do this?)

It gets better:

In Florida unmarried women may not parachute on Sundays.

In Idaho you can't fish from the back of a camel.

In Oklahoma whaling is illegal and you can't sleep on a refrigerator outdoors.

In New Orleans you may not tie an aligator to a fire hydrant. ( Now that one makes sense, having been with a fire district I can appreciate that. Nothing like responding to a fully involved house fire at 1:00 in the morning and going to the hydrant to connect only to find an aligator tied to it. Could really ruin your morning.)

Bernard

Evan
10-12-2003, 02:55 PM
Truth: In Boston you may not wear transparent clothing.

BC21OSH
10-12-2003, 03:56 PM
Those Puritan Bostonians take the fun out of everything. No Saran Sarongs.

Bernard

spope14
10-12-2003, 09:29 PM
back to the bear story and Mr. Treadwell. I have heard quite a bit about this. Hungry bears in the fall, a possible mistake by him....

Perhaps the issue is something we are all guilty of, and can get us all killed or injured. After working around machinery for years, bears, tigers (Roy)....can one become nonchalant? Does one kind of forget even the smallest item of safety that should be followed each and every time we enter hazardous situations? Kind of like skipping s step, forgetting to lower the safety glasses, just leave the chuck in for that split second because "Hey, I know better, but just this once for this one second, just to turn around to get the other tool...."?

Of for the bear, maybe forgot to cook something far enough from camp, kind of tired, forgot to hang the food, maybe did not wash up enough, of maybe just got a bit more "fearless" and decided to camp maybe one weekend past the sensible time. Maybe saw a few signs of potential trouble, but decided to pass them off, maybe stay a bit more alert, but press on anyway.

Nonchalance...maybe this one time we will get away without a problem.....know maybe I should not do this, but never been hurt by it before........Besides, done this so many times.......

SJorgensen
10-13-2003, 12:00 AM
Great point. Another thing that can happen is a false sense of an "understanding" with the predator. Like "he won't eat me, he's my friend!" Only problem is that predators have poor memories and are very fickle friends. Gizzly's sometimes even eat their own cubs by accident. Anyone can have an "off" day.

Spence

ibewgypsie
10-13-2003, 12:36 AM
I pack my 44 ruger. I am not really sure it would get a bear off me, but it sure would make his day nearly as bad as mine.

I saw a mule bite and pick up a six year old boy and shake him like a rag. I took a 2x4 and had a talk with him. You never know what a animal is really going to do. He wheeled and kicked at me. At one point I was not sure I didn't want to kill the animal outright.

That is why I prefer machinery to horses. Gimme a motorcycle anyday. I understand moving parts and not retained memories of a animal.

AND the dumb yokels that feed the sharks and bears.. Funny the shark attacks increased after the hand feeding expeditions in the bahamas..

Evan
10-13-2003, 01:11 AM
I have slept with a 357 Magnum under my jacket/pillow in camp. Never needed it though. I don't bother any more. Keep the camp clean with no food smells and the bears will think you are just there on vacation. They are right.

SJorgensen
10-13-2003, 01:52 AM
Ibew,
I've got some experience with horses and because I cared for a herd of 35 horses for 5 years I think I learned a great deal about the temperament of horses. This includes a range of easy and nasty temperament. They were all purebred Arabian horses and many Utahans tell me that they are the closest things to a Mule in temperament. I've known horses that would bite or nip but I've never seen one lift a person with a bite; I'm not saying it couldn't happen. In almost all the cases of bad behavior I eventually found a cause. One horse that was acting particularly nasty died of a twisted intestine. Most often when a horse is acting aggressively, I look for other problems like a saddle problem or a hoof problem or a health problem.

In general (other than certain herd behavior) they don't seem to have an aggressive nature. Flight is definitely their plan of survival. That being said I've also handled stallions and the fights between stallions. I was once punched in the chest by stallion in the middle of a fight. It could easily have been fatal to me if the horse didn't pull his punch. We were both shocked. Anyway that story of yours is unusual and very rare unless the animal was abused.

Spence

Dr. Rob
10-13-2003, 04:05 AM
Audiotape captured sounds of bear attack

By Jai-Rui Chong and Steve Hymon
Los Angeles Times

Timothy Treadwell can be heard desperately fighting off a grizzly bear on a 3-minute audiotape of the fatal mauling that claimed his life and that of his girlfriend, Amie Huguenard, in Katmai National Park and Preserve earlier this week, Alaska State Troopers disclosed yesterday.

Their remains were found Monday by the bush pilot who had flown to their camp to pick them up.

The audiotape is from a hand-held video camera that Treadwell used to record his encounters with the bears, some of which weigh more than 1,000 pounds, police said. There was no video of the attack, said Greg Wilkinson, public-information officer for the Alaska State Troopers.

Treadwell was last heard from at noon Sunday, when he used a satellite phone to call a friend in Malibu, Calif.

According to Wilkinson, the tape begins with sounds of Treadwell screaming that he is being attacked and calling for help to Huguenard, who was apparently still inside a tent.

"Come out here; I'm being killed out here," said Treadwell, repeating quotes from the tapes.

"Play dead!" Huguenard yelled in reply.

That strategy is commonly used to pacify angry bears in an attack. But Treadwell told Huguenard the strategy wasn't working and she then urged him to "fight back."

Treadwell, who never carried weapons, then asked her to get a pan and to hit the bear, police said.

At that point, the tape stops. Much of it is fuzzy or inaudible, Wilkinson said.

Wilkinson said investigators had found the camera inside a bag they had picked up at the couple's campsite. He said he did not know whether one of the National Park Service rangers or state troopers who responded to the scene had put the camera in the bag or whether Huguenard had done so before she was killed.

The beginning of the tape included video and audio of Treadwell interacting with the bears in the days before the attack.

"The troopers who saw the tape said that, at one point, Treadwell is doing something and a bear suddenly comes up behind him and he has that 'oh my God' look on his face," Wilkinson said. "I'm sure all along he knew that he was playing with fire and that probably was part of the appeal."

Park Service officials for years have been critical of Treadwell, saying he got too close to wild animals and made the mistake of treating them like people. His friends, however, said Treadwell's photos and 1999 book, "Among Grizzlies," helped educate people about bears.

Treadwell had spent the past 13 summers in Alaska. He had been there since June, traveling to remote locations where he could pitch his tent and view bears. Huguenard, 37, spent time with him in July and traveled to be with him in September.

Dean Andrew, owner of Andrew Airways in Alaska, said "The morning of the pick-up, there was no call. That was a red flag."

Andrew said the pilot knew something was wrong when he landed near Treadwell's camp at 1:10 p.m. on Monday. Usually, Treadwell would contact the approaching pilot through a hand-held radio and then arrange his gear on the shoreline of the lake where the pilot landed his floatplane.

On Monday, the pilot did not hear the familiar voice and noticed that the camp was still pitched about 100 yards up a hill from the lake. The pilot got out of the plane, shouted and walked toward the camp when, as Andrew described it, he "got a strange feeling that something wasn't right."

ibewgypsie
10-13-2003, 09:46 AM
Spence,

Last time I was dog bit.. The lil old lady said scruffy would not bite, I must be making that up. I showed her the bite marks in my leg with deep penetrations.

She said her scruffy would never do anything like that unless I was mean to him.

Denial... Total denial... Dogs, horses, bears , people all have minds of thier own. You never know what is in it either... You can guess, but never really know...

Some animals, Some people are just plain mean.. Mean hearted.. Go drinking with some apache indians for a few days.. Conditioning or breed? Not all apache, just some I have met in the construction industry. Nice guys till you add a lil alcohol.

Scruffy left marks. I think a bear would leave larger ones.

Rustybolt
10-13-2003, 10:51 AM
A grizzly bear is the largest land carnivore in the world. From its perspective EVERYTHING is food.Behave accordingly.

Oso
10-13-2003, 02:44 PM
There are domesticated animals and there are wild ones.

Domesticated animals are still animals, but they have integrated people into their world view.

Dogs are like that...owner is the pack leader, and will not be attacked ever, unless it comes down to internal politics...
Outsiders are , well, outsiders, and are not viewed as being friendly until proven.

Tribe, pack, 31st and Pine gang, family, platoon, work group, whatever, if you ain't IN, you are not gonna get treated the same. People are like animals in that sense, although as a group, we are nastier and more likely to "turn on you" than animals, who pretty much stay constant.
If an animal didn't eat you yet (but could), its cause they ain't hungry...not because they like you around. People change their attitude a lot. Ok one day, kill you the next.

That said, it varies with domestic animals....we have a bunch of cats, all of whom are friendly with us, jump up and rub, whatever..can't sit down without one jumping up on you.

If we have to cause some pain to one (combing out a fur tangle, etc), the reaction varies by animal.

One of them will hate it, but he knows we are trying to help, so he will struggle, but not get agressive. Might scratch etc getting away, but will not bite. He'll be right back after he gets away, rubbing.

Another will generally bite if caused pain, but is otherwise extremely friendly.

A third will struggle and clout with paw, but will not extend claws and scratch.

They do have differences in attitude and behavior, but we don't threaten their existence....and they know it.,

The only reason we get away with keeping cats in the long run is because we are bigger and cleverer at some things.

If the one that will bite weighed 350 lb the bite would be a bit different........

Similar with dogs, we don't have them, but other members of the family do, and we are "pack" members there. pretty much the same deal.

But those animals have been bred for "friendly" for hundreds or thousands of years. Even with that, they have their moments.

What makes a person think that a wild animal is going to learn about and accept people in a few weeks or months(or years for that matter)? I have no clue...Wishful thinking, I guess.

gramps
10-13-2003, 05:52 PM
All these stories about bears reminded me of a story that involved an atheist and a bear;
An atheist was taking a walk through the woods, admiring all that the "accident of evolution" had created.
"What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!", he said to himself.
As he was walking along the river he heard rustling in the bushes. As he turned, he saw a 7-foot grizzly charging him.
He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in. He tried to run faster, so scared that tears were coming to his eyes. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. His heart was pumping frantically as he tried to run faster, but he tripped and fell. He rolled over to pick himself up and saw the bear on top of him raising his paw to kill him.

At that instant he cried out, "Oh my God!". Just then, time stopped. The bear froze, the forest was silent, the river even stopped. A bright light shone on the man, and a voice came out of the sky saying. "You deny my existence all these years, teach others I don't exist and credit my creation to a cosmic accident and now you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist, ever proud, looked to the light and said, "It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but could you make the bear a Christian?" "Very well," said the voice.
As the light went out, the river ran, and the sounds of the forest continued, the bear put his paw down.

The bear then brought both paws together, bowed his head and said: "Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive."

dave :-)

Joel
10-13-2003, 06:50 PM
A man and his crotchety old boss were sitting around the campfire one quiet spring morning. The boss looks up and sees a bear in the distance charging toward them. The man calmly, but quickly, starts to put on his running shoes. The boss looks at him and says, you idiot, your f#&@ing nuts if you think you can out run a hungry grizzly bear. The man starts to get up and says, of course I can't out run the bear, but I can damn sure out run you!

wierdscience
10-13-2003, 09:50 PM
There are things,common sense things that we all(well most of us)learn at an early age,things like not sticking your hand into a meat grinder,not sticking it in a fire,and not lying around the camp fire with 1200 lb bears!

Stupid is what stupid does,the bear guy was stupid and so was the girl who loved him,luckily they won't have kids.

As for animal behavior,domesticated or not they are unpredictable,they are not capable of reasoning,only learned behavior and instinct.Playing with wild animals is not smart,pretending they are reasoning beings is stupid.

It took thousands of years for man to domesticate dogs and some how idiots think they can do it in a few weeks with bears and a few years with tigers,idiots!

SJorgensen
10-13-2003, 11:29 PM
That's right, and any dog in our family pack that bit the hand that fed it was pretty near to the end of its family line. Unless of course it was a pit bull. Those we kept around to make things interesting. Over a few thousand years they will learn.

The other factor that hasn't been mentioned is an animal’s response to fear or it’s sensing the fear in another species. It is at that moment that they learn who is supposed to chase whom. Once they get that figured out the pecking order is established in their minds. The first time I rode my first young stallion into a herd of cows it was a real fight to get the horse to do it. It was really terrified of the creatures. Once the cows turned and ran, I never again had a problem. In fact the horse seemed to get into it.

It’s a good thing that grizzlies don't encounter humans very often. They would find us easy prey if we didn't have our weapons. Bears were a big problem out here in the western United States. The last Grizzly bear in my area was known as "Old Ephraim". He stood 10' tall and weighed 1100lbs. His skull was sent to the Smithsonian (1923.) One of the reasons that the man that killed him particularly hated grizzly bears is that some of the grizzlies would just eat a part of the prey and leave the animals maimed. Nobody wanted a herd of three legged sheep.

Spence

wierdscience
10-14-2003, 12:07 AM
Preciving fear is and instinct,dogs are good examples,the only dog that ever bit me was the only dog that I was ever afraid of.

Insects display this to,like animals they can pick up on what we feel,wasps and hornets also sense fear.

Animals do precive their inviroments better than we,grandpa always told me that when you see the small yellow butterflies in fall that means frost is always only three weeks away,and you know what?right on the money since as far back as I can remember!

Evan
10-14-2003, 12:08 AM
Wierd,

I have had dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, gerbils, rats all my life. Animals, wild or domestic are totally predictable, you just must understand how they think. And, they do think. They ARE reasoning beings. They don't act solely on instinct. Dogs in particular are capable of figuring out the solution to a problem. I used to have a white shepard. When I told him to see who is at the front door he didn't go to the front door. He went to the living room window so he could look at the front door. He had maybe a 500 word vocabulary. You could tell him stuff like "go into the kitchen, pick up the ball and bring it in here and put it on the coffee table". He would do it. To "train" him (more correctly "teach him") took only one repetition. You showed him how it was done and then he knew how. I decided one day to teach him to jump through a hula hoop. It took 5 seconds. "Thor, jump through the hoop" OK boss, what's next?

SJorgensen
10-14-2003, 12:17 AM
That dog was so smart are you sure he wasn't training you?!

Spence

wierdscience
10-14-2003, 12:26 AM
Evan,all examples of learned behavior,dog looking through window is typical response for a domesticated or wild dog,that behavior is a partial play on the (for lack of a better term)hunting/prey instinct,he knows its his job to have a look see at whoever is coming up the walk,by any means avalible(that he knows of)to execute that task,if he knew to look through the peep hole he would do that if he couldn't see out the window.

Heck my moms black lab can tell if its friend or foe just by the sound of the knock,stranger gets a growl,niehgbor pays no mind,my older brother gets an excited greeting because he rolls on the floor and plays with her,is this reasoning?I don't think so,she has learned who is who and who does what for her,she simply accepts or rejects people the way we do.

Incidentaly she is a racist,does not like black people(just a bad joke)everybody she has ever growled at has admitted being scared of her,she senses that,but even if she gets to know them if they are ever again afraid she growls again.

I think people make a big mistake when they asign human emotions and intelligence to animals,too many cartoons.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 10-13-2003).]

Oso
10-14-2003, 12:29 AM
If you want some interesting experiences, try this on a dog that isn't too familiar with you.....

You look at the dog, you think about biting into the best steak you ever ate, and you imagine getting taller and pouncing on the dog. If you can imagine biting the dog and getting the steak taste..so much the better. You do NOT have to make any moves....moves they can dig, this they cannot.

If done right it is about guaranteed to strike fear into a dog. At first they don't believe it, then they get VERY spooked.

I used to have to walk through an area where there were usually loose dogs at night, and this has caused even big ones to lay their tail between their legs and git.

ibewgypsie
10-14-2003, 12:30 AM
Evan,

Thinking in Dog sense.. I was told, the dog was trying to save me from that clanky noisy motorcycle I was riding, Trying to pull me off it by my leg to save me. I unfortunatly have been dog bit numerous times by friends pets. Even by my own pitt terrier a few times. I currently don't own a dog. I laughed at the DA who had a tiger in his New York apartment. DA..

No thanks.

Animals are able to see the aura we all broadcast, read hostile intention or fear. When they read fear, they react differently.

Slow down when a vicious dog approaches your motorcycle, accellerate rapidly. Or carry a pistol and leave them dead in the ditch. Every person has a right to defend his self from hostile intentions. If more people did this, well the world would be so much more respectful.

OSO.. that is called posturing.. the way animals communicate. Two dogs right before they fight will posture for a moment or two. I have seen teenagers do the same thing unconciously.

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-13-2003).]

SJorgensen
10-14-2003, 12:38 AM
Ibew,

Its the tats. Dogs hate tats.

Spence

Evan
10-14-2003, 02:42 AM
Wierd,

I do not assign human emotions and behaviour to dogs. That's called anthropomorphization. Dog have thier own view of the world and it is not the same as ours. Of course they exhibit learned behaviour, so do we. I have a Karelian Beardog and she does not operate the same as any other dog I have known. She most certainly does reason out problems. She is always on a running line when outside because if not she will go kill something. She doesn't do the sniff, sniff, do I know you thing. If another dog comes in the yard she tries to kill it instantly. When she gets the line wrapped around the tree at the end of her running line she looks up at it and then takes a half turn in one direction to see it that makes it worse or better. If it makes it worse she goes the other way. After a turn she looks up again to see if it it looser. She almost never gets stuck. She is able to figure out the problem. Dogs are not mindless creatures operating by a preset program. They are able to reason, albeit, not to the extent we do. They have a brain and there is no reason to think that it is not at least in some way functional in a similar but lesser manner as ours.

darryl
10-14-2003, 03:47 AM
I once had a cat that would sit and listen to music, swaying to some of it, and ignoring other tunes. She would look at something for a few moments, then go check it out, seemingly confirming a hypothesis. She would also watch a bit of tv, but was quickly bored by it. Is there something more than instinct at work here?

Dr. Rob
10-14-2003, 03:51 AM
I wish there were, but suspect not. My cat watches TV too. Nature shows, mostly- the bird parts are the best. Wonder why?

ibewgypsie
10-14-2003, 09:20 AM
Spence..

I can vouch that bees are attracted to the bright colors in tattoos. I am quite sure they would taste bad thou. They sure look yummy on some of the girls I tattoo tho.

One girl I was wanting to sniff her flower all while tattooing it. Ha..

David.

Evan
10-14-2003, 12:25 PM
BTW, the best proof of animal reasoning is Alex, the african gray parrot. He has been on TV many times and is truly remarkable in his reasoning powers. He communicates in english, he can count, he understands concepts like difference in size, shape, color, material, quantity, weight. He is able to combine any of those concepts and answer questions about objects. He is able to add and subtract and understands "many" and "few".

He knows when he is good or bad and knows to apoligise for being bad. He has moods and expresses them clearly. He will ask for what he wants and will tell what he wants to do.

Once you see him it is crystal clear that he is a thinking, reasoning being. He is without doubt a remakable exception, something like the Einstein of the bird world.

Oso
10-14-2003, 02:17 PM
IBEW, remember I said you don't have to make any moves at all....it isn't quite like the usual type of conscious posturing I am familiar with...it is a projection of attitude that is a little bit different.

Predators are very uncomfortable when they are regarded as prey......

Animals thinking.........

If you assume that any predator animal can operate thought-wise at about the level of a 3 or 4 year old hunman, you may be close.

Don't take it too far, they don't think the SAME WAY, they think AS WELL AS.

I wouldn't argue if you wanted to move the age range a bit......

Animals (domestic ones, anyway) can be seen to exhibit a few normal emotions...including jealousy, happiness, anger, a desire for revenge, etc. They hold grudges, and they remember things and people quite well.

My father had a dog who we had not yet met. My wife and I went to visit, and when I came in, the dog just fawned all over me (they usually do).
My wife came in a couple minutes later, and that dog freaked....barked, backed away, looked very unhappy.
Best we can tell is that my wife must have looked like the previous owner, who we never met, but was known to have been abusive according to the shelter the dog came from.

[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 10-14-2003).]

L Webb
10-14-2003, 04:02 PM
Evan,
Alex is an amazing bird. People tend to doubt what parrots can do and think they are simply mimicking what they have heard.

Having lived with a variety of parrots has taught me that yes, they do mimick. But it goes a little farther than that.

We had a wild caught African Grey. It took a long time to gain the trust of that bird. At first we thought it was just mimicking sounds. We soon learned that the bird was quite remarkable.
We eventually got to the point where you could actually hold a conversation with the bird. It knew exactly what it was saying.

I was quite stunned when one day as I passed the aviary and heard the following exchange between the African Grey and our little Hahn's Macaw:
The macaw squawked.
The Grey said "quiet"
The macaw said "shut up"
The Grey said "now, I said quiet!"
The macaw said "no, I don't want to!"

I have many other tales of interacting with the birds. They are truly amazing animals.

Les

ibewgypsie
10-14-2003, 10:40 PM
I walked up to Dave's trailer where he had a Macaw and several pugs..

I heard a whole bunch of pug dogs barking.. When I opened the door.. the Macaw had his wings spread and was walking around chasing the pugs barking at them. He sounded exactly like the pugs. I was amazed.

He'd sit on my shoulder and beg for the dregs of my beer. Keep grooming my head. and barfing in my hand. Someone says that means they really like you.. (I shared my beer)

He was extremly jealous of my girlfriend and would not let her close to me. That beak that would bust a brazilian nut to pieces would pop at her..

Evan
10-15-2003, 02:19 AM
The bear is back in the 'hood tonight. Completely shredded next door neigbours wood garbage bin. Can't get mine, I have a steel dumpster. My dogs have been making a big fuss this evening and neighbour saw the bear. Good sized black bear. Probably won't bother coming over here. My big malamute howls just like a wolf and bears don't like that.

spope14
10-15-2003, 06:23 PM
Bears to Tigers to Dogs to Cats to Parrotts, back to bears.

One thing about us on this page, we have some great conversations........

All my kid has is a hamster. Any wild hamster stories :-)

ibewgypsie
10-15-2003, 08:43 PM
Spope..

Well I was dating this Nurse in Northern California.. She came home talking about sending a intern down to the car parts place to get a flexible grapple (claws). They had to fish a dead gerbil out of a Gay mans rectum..

Enough of a hamster story? TRUE, I swear.. She was not happy. I really liked northern california, it reminded me of HERE in georgia.

Personally, I would rather face a grizzly then to have a dead gerbil (or live) up my rectum, but then I am 100% straight.. HA..

David..

SJorgensen
10-16-2003, 02:55 AM
Once a pet hamster got loose in my house and it became the most wicked little shrew. Does anyone remember the movie "Trilogy of Terror" with Karen Black? Where a little warrior doll that came to life? That was what this little hamster from hell was like. Good thing we had an oven handy! Just like in the movie.

Spence
(No animals were really burned to a cruel death in the oven. I'm sure it got flushed just like all my chameleons and baby alligators

SJorgensen
10-16-2003, 02:56 AM
I need the ability to delete double posts, if it is OK with you Neil.

Thank you,

Spence

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 10-16-2003).]

ibewgypsie
10-16-2003, 08:43 AM
Ok, Spence.. you are so busy with the Hamster you forgot about the bridgeport?

HA... my computer has crashed, motherboard is out.. I am soo pee'ed off, I wish I had handles on the acme screws...(bridgeport) It does that to me when I am stressed out and broke..

David..

Evan
10-18-2003, 01:27 PM
Wanda's dishwasher quit working so she called a repairman.

Since she had to go to work the next day, she told the repairman, "I'll leave the key under the mat.

Fix the dishwasher, leave the bill on the counter, and I'll mail you a check.

Oh, by the way don't worry about my bulldog.
He won't bother you.

But, whatever you do, do NOT, under ANY circumstances, talk to my parrot!"

"I REPEAT, DO NOT TALK TO MY PARROT!!!"

When the repairman arrived at Wanda's apartment the following day, he discovered the biggest, meanest looking bulldog he has
ever seen. But, just as she had said, the dog just lay there on the carpet watching the repairman go about his work.

The parrot, however, drove him nuts the whole time with his incessant yelling, cursing and name calling.

Finally the repairman couldn't contain himself any longer and yelled,

"Shut up, you stupid ugly bird!" To which the parrot replied,

"Get him, Spike!"

Dr. Rob
10-20-2003, 11:54 AM
Is it too late to post a link to the man-vs-bear fistfight film? See, now THIS is how you deal with a bear. None o' that pansyass pepper spray junk...

XXXXXXX

Sorry, link didn't work. My mistake, sorry, go back to work...

[This message has been edited by Dr. Rob (edited 10-20-2003).]

SJorgensen
10-20-2003, 09:13 PM
Try this one:
Evan goes salmon fishing.

http://www.hot-blooded.com/Commercial_video/Bear%20vs.%20Human.mpeg

Enjoy it and have a good laugh!

Then reflect for a moment on the recent events and appreciate the real and trajic, although predictable, events. Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread.

Spence


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 10-20-2003).]