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nheng
01-10-2010, 10:06 AM
Just went into the Grizzly catalog and did a search for "South Bend". The return was a page full of just about everything with a South Bend label.

As a life-long fan of South Bend, I am disturbed by this. Are these products any different from the other imports or just abuse of yet another respected old USA name?

Tony Ennis
01-10-2010, 10:11 AM
Mr Grizzly bought the rights to South Bend and is bringing them back. Details are sketchy and he seems to be behind schedule. Hit the South Bend Lathe (http://southbendlathe.com/) site for more details.

I hope he can do it.

There was a thread about this within the last month or so.

mbensema
01-10-2010, 10:11 AM
Is it anything the old South Bend Lathe company didn't sell?

RPease
01-10-2010, 10:14 AM
Is it anything the old South Bend Lathe company didn't sell?


I don't remember them selling pizza??.............:D

Lew Hartswick
01-10-2010, 11:08 AM
As a life-long fan of South Bend, I am disturbed by this. Are these products any different from the other imports or just abuse of yet another respected old USA name?

If that upsets you then there are a lot of "respected old USA names"you are going to be up set by.
Millwaukee, Vise-Grip, Starrett, and a lot more. :-)
...lew...

KiddZimaHater
01-10-2010, 11:14 AM
So .... are these Grizzly/South Bend machines actually made in the USA?
Or are they just Tiawan machines with the South Bend logo slapped on them?

motorworks
01-10-2010, 12:01 PM
Just about as South Bend as fried rice :)
http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/18x60-Variable-Speed-Toolroom-Lathe-%28EVS%29-3-Phase.aspx

John Stevenson
01-10-2010, 12:04 PM
I don't remember them selling pizza??.............:D

Yup they did, they just had 4 jaw chucks bolted to them though :rolleyes:

.

tdkkart
01-10-2010, 12:13 PM
If that upsets you then there are a lot of "respected old USA names"you are going to be up set by.
Millwaukee, Vise-Grip, Starrett, and a lot more. :-)
...lew...


Ford, Chevy, Dodge, John Deere..................

Tony Ennis
01-10-2010, 12:47 PM
They will be Asian made SB copies AFAIK.

The same thing that drove SB out of business (falling demand, high prices) would do the same thing, but faster, if they used American labor.

I expect Papa Griz is having trouble solving the equation even using Asian labor.

Who's going to buy a 9" South Bend if it costs $5,000?

My gut tells me if he makes it work at all, the new SBs will be less boxy Asian lathes that are slightly upgraded versus the run-of-the-mill Asian lathe.

Also bear in mind there are 2 distinct markets, at least - Home Shoppers and Pros.

gwilson
01-10-2010, 02:13 PM
One thing that really bothers me in the Grizzly catalog is that nothing has any description of how accurate the item is. Even the South Bend chucks,which cost more than his other chucks,have no listing of their runout. They mention that their S.B. ADJUSTABLE chuck can be adjusted to .0005" accuracy,but that's it. No specs on their tailstock centers,or much anything else.

With the prices they are quoting for the South Band chucks,they should at least mention their runout. They cost about as much as Bisons,who do give figures. I would
n't buy any chuck unless I knew how accurate it was supposed to be.

As for the lathes,they are still Taiwan made,and I think Grizzly is riding too much on the name in pricing them so high. I want mucho specs before investing in such expensive lathes. I want to know spindle runout,etc.. Not just what size the machine will take. I want to know what steel the gears are made of,and how processed,etc.. Useful info that actually describes the accuracy and quality of the lathe.

Optics Curmudgeon
01-10-2010, 02:21 PM
For those that don't know what put South Bend out of business, this may be enlightening: http://www.cesj.org/jbm/casestudies-vbm/southbendlathe.html.

Joe

John Stevenson
01-10-2010, 02:32 PM
Also bear in mind there are 2 distinct markets, at least - Home Shoppers and Pros.

What pro's buy none CNC large lathes nowadays in any numbers ?

.

reggie_obe
01-10-2010, 02:49 PM
I always thought the the thing that saved the old South Bend was employee ownership and the death blow was that their product didn't keep pace with technology and industry demands. What was the most technologically advanced lathe that they sold? The Turnado??

HSS
01-10-2010, 02:56 PM
They don't even talk about the accuracy of their clocks. But I do believe the Tee shirts are, large is large and small is small.:D :D


Patrick

JCHannum
01-10-2010, 02:57 PM
Employee ownership almost destroyed South Bend. It is a case study in what can go wrong, culminating in the employees going on strike against themselves.

For much of the final ten years or so, many of South Bend's machines were manufactured in Taiwan and home built machines used Korean castings.

HSS
01-10-2010, 03:01 PM
For much of the final ten years or so, many of South Bend's machines were manufactured in Taiwan and home built machines used Korean castings.

Glacern vices are cast in another country and finished here and I would love to have one, if I had something to put it on.

Patrick

tdkkart
01-10-2010, 03:02 PM
Who's going to buy a 9" South Bend if it costs $5,000?

My gut tells me if he makes it work at all, the new SBs will be less boxy Asian lathes that are slightly upgraded versus the run-of-the-mill Asian lathe.



When this transaction first started Papa Grizz was on the PM forum stating that his intentions were to keep the traditional South Bend models as close to original looking as possible while adding a few improvements, roller bearings, V-belts etc. The possibility of making the 10" into a 12" was also discussed.

I agree, when there are numerous several sub-12" lathes available for $2500 or less on the market, selling a 100 year old design for double the money is gonna be a tough job, especially when there are so many that still think that there is an unlimited supply of prestine originals to be had for less than new price.

John Stevenson
01-10-2010, 03:04 PM
I always thought the the thing that saved the old South Bend was employee ownership and the death blow was that their product didn't keep pace with technology and industry demands. What was the most technologically advanced lathe that they sold? The Turnado??

Take a look at the South Bend page on Tony's lathe site

http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/index.html

Look at all the pictures of the models up to their demise.

Then look at Boxford

http://www.lathes.co.uk/boxford/index.html

They stared off making the South Bend under licence during WWII and then went on to produce it for themselves producing some very nicely modern designed machines.

Then look at Boxfords today

http://www.boxford.co.uk/boxford/

Still doing manual lathes but now one of the biggest suppliers of training lathes and mills to education and industry all over the world.

Then look at Myfords, these are in the same boat as South Bend who were happy to just rest on their laurels and not move on.

.

JCHannum
01-10-2010, 03:12 PM
Glacern vices are cast in another country and finished here and I would love to have one, if I had something to put it on.

Patrick

Not a problem with that, or with South Bend's products. It is just that, like many other manufacturers, SB went offshore many years ago as well. The Grizz/SB will not be much different from what the final iteration of a SB lathe was as I believe they are also to be manufactured in Taiwan.

reggie_obe
01-10-2010, 03:20 PM
I recall a 60 Minutes program where they toured the SB plant and described the employee buyout a triumph which saved SB and local jobs. Tony's page doesn't seem to mention the 17" swing Tornado, which I thought was made in Italy.

Bill736
01-10-2010, 03:21 PM
I've read several times that the Chinese, for example, will manufacture a machine to any tolerance or quality you pay them to do. I wonder, however, if many foreign workers and managers lack, what I must call, the sense of morality to do careful and responsible work. We read of so many cases where foreign made medicines are made with improper ingredients, foreign pet foods turn out to be poisonous, and foreign made machines have parts made so poorly as to be a joke. We rarely see such disasters in US made products. Is it simply the fact that our laws hold US manufacturers more responsible for adequate quality, or is there something lacking in the attitudes and moral codes of third world companies that simply can't be put there in a short time?
Is it just money, or something deeper ?

Tony Ennis
01-10-2010, 03:30 PM
I think we have an Anti-China thread going already ;-)

But I'll play.

Chinese people aren't evil. They don't do anything worse to us than they do to themselves. (But, they do some awful things to themselves...)

reggie_obe
01-10-2010, 03:41 PM
I've read several times that the Chinese, for example, will manufacture a machine to any tolerance or quality you pay them to do. I wonder, however, if many foreign workers and managers lack, what I must call, the sense of morality to do careful and responsible work. We read of so many cases where foreign made medicines are made with improper ingredients, foreign pet foods turn out to be poisonous, and foreign made machines have parts made so poorly as to be a joke. We rarely see such disasters in US made products. Is it simply the fact that our laws hold US manufacturers more responsible for adequate quality, or is there something lacking in the attitudes and moral codes of third world companies that simply can't be put there in a short time?
Is it just money, or something deeper ?

Let's not forget contaminated infant formula......

loose nut
01-10-2010, 07:28 PM
We rarely see such disasters in US made products.

That's because there aren't any products left.

nheng
01-10-2010, 08:56 PM
I'm well aware of most of the good names lost.

While everyone is thinking lathes, check this out ----- > http://grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=south%20bend

Did SB build any of these in the form shown?

gwilson
01-10-2010, 10:37 PM
Ungodly high priced! You COULD find some very nice old American lathes in fine condition for that kind of money.

Paul Alciatore
01-10-2010, 10:48 PM
I recall a 60 Minutes program where they toured the SB plant and described the employee buyout a triumph which saved SB and local jobs. Tony's page doesn't seem to mention the 17" swing Tornado, which I thought was made in Italy.

So, you believe everything you see on TV?

Paul Alciatore
01-11-2010, 12:02 AM
They will be Asian made SB copies AFAIK.

The same thing that drove SB out of business (falling demand, high prices) would do the same thing, but faster, if they used American labor.

I expect Papa Griz is having trouble solving the equation even using Asian labor.

Who's going to buy a 9" South Bend if it costs $5,000?

......


Consider that a used SB9 would would go for the better part of $1,000, depending on condition. Then, to get it to really good condition, would cost perhaps $2K to $3K unless you did all the work yourself. $5K begins to sound reasonable if the quality is there.

RB211
01-11-2010, 12:04 AM
Consider that a used SB9 would would go for the better part of $1,000, depending on condition. Then, to get it to really good condition, would cost perhaps $2K to $3K unless you did all the work yourself. $5K begins to sound reasonable if the quality is there.
Once you are at 5,000$, those larger lathes start to look very intriguing...
A very high quality 9" lathe is a very nice tool indeed, but again, a 13.5" engine lathe starts to look like a better buy.

loose nut
01-12-2010, 05:08 PM
Glacern vices are cast in another country and finished here and I would love to have one, if I had something to put it on.

Patrick

The start of the "outsourcing" was the US gov. shutting down foundries that didn't meet pollution regulations, the companies didn't build better foundries here, they ship the work to Taiwan where there are no regulations and then shipped the casting back here for manufacturing. It was a small step to producing the whole product there.

flutedchamber
01-12-2010, 07:50 PM
Is it anything the old South Bend Lathe company didn't sell?

Yes..one thing. The quality of the old machines to the new owner.

lazlo
01-13-2010, 10:23 AM
Glacern vices are cast in another country and finished here and I would love to have one, if I had something to put it on.

Glacern says that their vises are made in Taiwan, and finished in the US. This post on PracticalMachinist appears to have identified the Taiwanese company that makes them. The vises in their product line are identical to Glacern's:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/anyone-familiar-these-vises-189806.html?p=1207675&

I don't believe it for a second. Don't understand why these "manufacturers" are so vague about where there products come from. Let's guess most castings are from Taiwan and the rest is from Germany and USA...

http://auto-well.com/e/tld.htm

That said, MickeyD bought this vise (from the Auto-Well page), and it's very nicely made:

http://auto-well.com/images/tld.gif

Doozer
01-13-2010, 11:10 AM
I bought an AutoWell 5" vise about 9 or 10 years ago from Penn Tool.
It is a Kurt copy in every way and the iron is good.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i169/kooldoozer/Machines%20and%20Stuff/IMG_0110.jpg
Seen here on my mill. I made the spinner handle.
I think AutoWell are great vises.

--Doozer

philbur
01-13-2010, 03:13 PM
And Thalidomide.

Phil:)


Let's not forget contaminated infant formula......

lazlo
01-13-2010, 05:17 PM
And Thalidomide.

I skimmed past all the China chat, but Thalidomide was a testing and regulatory problem - i.e., it wasn't intentional. Spiking of infant formula with a melamine (a byproduct of coal washing) was done so they could water the formula down and then artificially spike the nitrogen content, which sadly causes kidney stones in mammals. The infants in China died from kidney stones, just like the pets world-wide from the melamine spiking incident from the previous year.

Thalidomide was created by the Germans, and and first approved for use in England, and the vast majority of deaths and birth defects were in Germany and the UK. Merrell (now a subsidiary of Dow) licensed it for use in the US, but despite a flurry of campaign contributions, the FDA refused to approve it as an antiemetic for pregnant women. The very few infants affected in the US were given samples, a practice that has now been outlawed.

In other words, a tragic case, but a very bad counter example.

John Stevenson
01-13-2010, 05:35 PM
My mate used to have a thalidomide dog, had to take it for a drag every night.

OK I'll get me coat.......................................

lazlo
01-13-2010, 05:36 PM
Oh man, that's bad John! :p I bet he a good job on "Stay!" but not so good on "Come!" :)

Tony Ennis
01-13-2010, 05:55 PM
and then artificially spike the nitrogen content

...In order to defeat the QC tests.

philbur
01-13-2010, 06:13 PM
Quote:

"A blind rush for profit was blamed for the thalidomide disaster that changed drug licensing laws and altered society’s view of drug safety."

One was a high tech rush for profits the other low tech. Neither intended to harm the end user, just make money. Seems like a perfect match to me.

Phil:)


I skimmed past all the China chat, but Thalidomide was a testing and regulatory problem - i.e., it wasn't intentional.