VFD/3phase motor in BC

[Black_Moons]

Hi, Anyone know a decent place to order a 3phase motor/VFD from BC?
Idealy some place in canada as shiping heavy objects across the boarder isent all that cheap..

Looking for a 2~3hp motor, and a VFD that can stop the motor on a dime for threading up to a shoulder.. or will I still need a spindle brake?

[Evan]

Try Princess Auto for a motor. I picked up a new made in USA 3 hp 220 3ph for just over $100 for my shaper a couple of years back.

[Doc Nickel]

[...] and a VFD that can stop the motor on a dime for threading up to a shoulder.. or will I still need a spindle brake?

-Most VFDs can "dynamic brake", but if you want to stop quicker than a second or two of ramp-down, or have a heavy mass to stop (big chuck, large workpiece) then you'll need what's known as a "braking resistor". It gives the VFD a place to dump all that energy.

Also keep in mind that if you have a smaller lathe with a threaded nose, stopping the spindle too fast can cause the chuck to come unscrewed. Particularly fast dynamic braking is best left for positive-retention chucks like camloks or L-tapers.

Doc.

[Richard-TX]

Looking for a 2~3hp motor, and a VFD that can stop the motor on a dime for threading up to a shoulder.. or will I still need a spindle brake?

I do it all the time. Actually I cheat too. I have one hand on the speed pot and slow down when i near the end. I have a braking resistor on my lathe and it stops pretty quick.

Best upgrade I ever did was getting rid of the single phase motor and putting on a VFD and 3 a phase motor.

Intergration took a while but it wasn't bad.

[hwingo]

Hi, Anyone know a decent place to order a 3phase motor/VFD from BC?
Idealy some place in canada as shiping heavy objects across the boarder isent all that cheap..

Looking for a 2~3hp motor, and a VFD that can stop the motor on a dime for threading up to a shoulder.. or will I still need a spindle brake?

I think the "operative words" are, ".........from BC?" I know of no place in BC. That said, one member of our group (BGUNS) recently installed a new Leeson SpeedMaster NEMA 4X VFD and new premium Baldor 2HP motor on my lathe. I purchased the Leeson from Electric Motor Wholesale.com for $668.00 which was FAR LESS than that being asked for this product locally ($98100 + shipping). There is a common thread between your being in BC and my being in Alaska ...... shipping cost and difficulty getting needed items from the Lower 48 States. So my answer to savings was to purchase the VFD from Electric Motor Wholesale.com.

Regarding the motor, I could have purchased the motor from Electric Motor Wholesale.com but savings would have been nil thus I purchased locally ($350 + shipping $110.00). Essentially, cost and shipping would have been the same from Electric Motor Wholesale.com.

As a side note, I should comment on the motor and VFD. The motor is 2 HP 3 phase and is specifically designed to operate in the range from 3Hz to 120Hz. The VFD is designed to operate in the range from 0Hz to 120Hz, is contained within a stainless steel enclosure, and can be directly splashed with water and oils though I will not do this.

The lathe is now very quiet and if chasing 4 TPI in low gear, the spindle and carriage literally creep at 15Hz providing ample time to thread right up to the shoulder or into a blind hole without crashing. It's very impressive and at this time I am very happy ....... not at all sorry I made the leap to this setup. There was an obvious high frequency whine during initial setup and this whine became absent when the VFD was programed to a setting of 8KHz.

To the best of my knowledge, motor ramp-up or ramp-down can be programed and controlled by the Leeson VFD. Currently I have mine set at two seconds. It was explained to me that it's easier on the motor and electronics if I have the 2 second ramp up & down although I should be able to set the VFD so there is no noticeable ramp up & down time. Though I haven't investigated this matter I would assume that ramp-up & down can be controlled separately and if so, I will likely leave ramp-up at 2 seconds and change ramp-down to "instantly" (whatever that setting may be).

Harold

[Willy]

With a VFD you won't have to worry about stopping on a dime because with a VFD one can go slow enough that even I can react fast enough to thread up to a shoulder and not crash.

Any well equipped local motor rebuild shop should be able to supply you with a proper 3 phase motor and VFD.
Also bare in mind that for those with non US built machinery, you will be looking for a metric or IEC framed motor rather than a US spec NEMA framed motor for a direct replacement for your single phase existing motor.

[hwingo]

With a VFD you won't have to worry about stopping on a dime because with a VFD one can go slow enough that even I can react fast enough to thread up to a shoulder and not crash.

Any well equipped local motor rebuild shop should be able to supply you with a proper 3 phase motor and VFD.
Also bare in mind that for those with non US built machinery, you will be looking for a metric or IEC framed motor rather than a US spec NEMA framed motor for a direct replacement for your single phase existing motor.

Willy,

I lucked out when changing my motor from metric to US specs. My motor bolted up without a problem. A problem that I encountered was the need to buy new pulleys. The metric shaft on the original motor was 24mm and the shaft on my Baldor is 7/8". I have also encountered a slight physical size problem as the Baldor is slightly longer than the original motor making it necessary to modify the splash guard on my lathe to accommodate the new motor.

You are right in pointing that out. There may be issues with motor frame.

Harold

[Black_Moons]

Princess auto for 3phase motors eh? mm i'll keep my eye out next time im in the farm section. Not sure if they generaly keep 3 phase motors in stock.. usally just the 240v 2phase motors I thought.. but then I never really looked.

Baldor gez, everyone and thier baldors... they are so overpric.. uhh...
Hmm, isent this a baldor for $250? http://www.electricmotorwholesale.co...categoryID=237

Kinda looks like what I want too...

[Evan]

Finding a VFD in BC is no problem. One of the top names is Vector Drives and they are made here.

http://www.vectordrivesystems.com/vfds.html

You could tool over and drop in on them today if you want.

#110 1515
Broadway St
Port Coquitlam B.C.
V3C 6M2

1-604-945-5112

Look at the V1000

http://www.yaskawa.com/site/AdCampaign.nsf/docID/v1000_home.html?opendocument&promo=V1000

[Willy]

Black Moons, I think You have a 12x36 lathe if remember correctly. If you do, remember what I said in my previous post about frame size. If you are ordering a new motor may as well get one that fits.

[Black_Moons]

yea my motor is held by 4 bolts on a side flange, like that url I linked to.
Of course my motors flange seems to be a giant chunk of cast iron compaired to that baldors flimsyer looking steel..

says something about IP44 on it.. only thing that really looked like a 'frame' number... though I have no clue about these things.
Anyone got a refrence for me to match the frame spec to something I can actualy tell someone?

[Willy]

Look at your present motor, the frame size will be on the tag.

[lakeside53]

If it's "on a dime" - I'd still use a spindle brake, BUT if you do you can't really use the deceleration features of the VFD as the mechanical brake will tend to trip the VFD ("over current".) Some VFD's allow "free-wheel on switch closure" so you can use this feature in conjuction with a spindle brake.

I leave the existing pulleys/gears in place, then select a low gear (not just "slow vfd") for threading. That way the gear ratios in conjunction with the vfd deal with any realistic deceleration time. 1 second (aggressive braking) at 60 rpm (normal gear ratio with 60hz motor speed) is 1 revolution, thread at 240 rpm... and you can have 4 spindle revolutions after "stop", and that's not on a "dime".

If you have external braking resistors, no matter how aggressive you set braking, the effectiveness dies off with deceleration rpm. Low gearing mitigates this, but high speed/high gears can be an issue. To overcome this loss of braking power, most VFD's have what is called "DC injection" - at some predetermined point in the deceleration curve, the vfd starts to inject DC back into the motor to brake/lock it. I set mine to come on at 30% deceleration for 2 seconds (just beyond my preprogrammed VFD deceleration). It stops the spindle "dead" and locked (with a "clunk" - you can't turn it by hand) in that time. This needs to be applied with care - you can overheat a motor if you use DC injection with a high duty cycle, but most home users will hardly make the motor even warm. It's best to put a $2 thermistor inside the motor and extend that back to the VFD - then the vfd will sense the motor temperature and protect it.


Another thing that will bite you - large mass of chuck or workpiece, particularly at speed. If it wasn't for the mass of the rotating pieces (motor through to work piece) you wouldn't need braking resistors. You'll have your braking set for threading (aggressive deceleration, say 1 second), then be working on another piece at speed. You punch the stop button, and during deceleration the motor acts as a generator. This generated power has to go somewhere - the vfd applies it to the braking resistors (dissipating the energy and acting as a load on the motor) , but if the voltage on the internal DC buss rises too high the VFD will either trip out (protecting itself) or ... you have to program it to "continue the deceleration while keeping the DC buss below the programmed threshold". In Hitachi-speak, this is registers B130/131, and a few others... The effect is an unexpectedly long deceleration, so be aware of it if you expect it to "stop on a dime".

On my system I use external braking resistors, DC injection and DC buss control. It took some fiddling to get everything "right" but now and then, I still trip the vfd... on, on that.. I set the VFD to "restart if tripped", but even that has issues.

My recommendation (for a lathe): buy a VFD larger than your motor rating but program the VFD to your plate ratings. Why? larger VFD's can have lower resistance braking resistors (each VFD will have a "minimum resistance" specified) and you'll be able to brake effectively over a much larger range of speeds/loads. SOME vfds (like Hitachi L series) can't add external braking resistors without a "braking unit" - and that's stupidly expensive. The Hitachi SJ series allow a simple resistor to be added. Whatever brand you buy.. check...

Get your VFD... the rest is part of the learning curve..

[Richard-TX]

The Hitachi SJ series allow a simple resitor to be added.

The Teco FM50 is what I use and their reisitor is just that, a resistor that gets connected to two terminals. Same with the rest of the TECO VFDs.