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aostling
01-29-2010, 07:17 PM
Toyota has had to halt sales of Camry, Corolla, Highlander, and other models, all of which can experience a stuck throttle. Is it merely a faulty floor mat configuration, or is there something else going on here?

This sort of issue almost sunk Audi several years ago. But I don't think that unexpected acceleration was ever proven. There is no doubt about Toyota's problem.

F4134
01-29-2010, 07:35 PM
The first recall was for faulty floormat design. The latest one is more complex.

From the NHTSA recall database: "TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA VEHICLES. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION."

Richard-TX
01-29-2010, 07:46 PM
Toyota has had to halt sales of Camry, Corolla, Highlander, and other models, all of which can experience a stuck throttle. Is it merely a faulty floor mat configuration, or is there something else going on here?




I remember a silent recall Ford had back in the mid to late 1970s. What would happen is the cruise control would suddenly apply WOT to the vehicle. Stepping on the brake would not kick out the cruise control. The only way to clear the fault was by shutting off the ignition. Ford had their dealers disable the cruise control before delivery of a vehicle.

Audi and VW cars that have the "drive by wire" throttle system are immune to any sort of failure like that. If the accelerator and brake are depressed at the same time for more than 2 seconds, the engine will drop to idle speed regardless of the position of the throttle.

It is amazing to me that anyone would not be able to stop a vehicle with a stuck throttle. The 71 series GM diesels would do that if the injector rack jammed. That is why they have emergency shutoffs installed on the engines.

JanvanSaane
01-29-2010, 08:00 PM
As an owner of several less than new cars in my lifetime I have had throttles stick. I have never had a wreck because of it. Isn't it a natural response for an over revving engine to shut the ignition off? Richard-TX, I sure remember the airbox shutdowns on the 8-71s, Ran the overheads on a few of them in my youth. Somewhere in one of my toolboxes is a set of pushrod wrenches, guages and an assortment of injector timing pins.:) John

mooney1el
01-29-2010, 08:25 PM
The Toyotas (and Pontiacs) in this case are also "drive by wire". The problem with just shutting the ignition off is that for these cars, as I understand it, you have to "hold the button" for 3 seconds. Now, three seconds can be a lifetime in an emergency of this nature. I think that we'll see a magic fix sometime next week, perhaps in the code used to actuate the throttle condition or even a hardware correction. I suspect it is a combination of both, but the code fix will be quick and if done correctly will prevent the event. May make the cars a bit less "driveable", but better safe....

I realize that Toyota and the press are trying to de-couple the earlier "carpet cutting" issues to the current situation. However, I can assure you that there are lawyers chomping at the bit to connect the two and the potential litigation costs to Toyota are emormous. Toyota and the press are also playing up the "voluntary recall" nature of this situation. And indeed that is the best thing that Toyota can do at this time for publicity sake. But, based on what I have read, NHTSA has publically stated that they prodded Toyota into doing this recall. This is as close to a Federally mandated recall as a car company can get. And Federally mandated recalls are accompanied by huge fines and bad publicity and again, emormous litigation costs. There is no doubt that they will be hurt by this, but they are doing everything they can to mitigate the damage.

During my 33 years at GM, I spent many an hour/day/week on recallable issues. There are some very stressed out Toyota engineers and managers right now and none are getting any sleep. At GM, these things were reviewed all the way from the very top to the lowly release engineers responsible for the systems. But we the public will never know all of the findings, etc.

Richard

wierdscience
01-29-2010, 08:26 PM
Sounds like a hydroscopic plastic problem,everything is fine until it soaks up a little water,then it sticks.

Orrin
01-29-2010, 08:29 PM
Isn't it a natural response for an over revving engine to shut the ignition off?

All our modern vehicles' steering locks up when the ignition is switched off. I don't think that would be very safe. I'd rather move the shift selector to neutral and let the engine self-destruct. At least I'd retain directional control that way.

Orrin

Orrin
01-29-2010, 08:33 PM
All our modern vehicles' steering locks up when the ignition is switched off.

Oops. Sorry for the brain fart. The steering only locks when removing the ignition key. Perhaps that same sort of confusion is why some people have not turned off the ignition when their throttle stuck.

Orrin

JTToner
01-29-2010, 08:44 PM
About the ignition key activated steering wheel lock which, judging by the huge number of autos stolen every year, doesn't appear to be that effective. Anyway, I just wanted to mention my father's 1948 Ford truck which also had a steering wheel lock. However, it was activated by a toggle lever, near the ignition key. The key could be turned on or a gazillion times without locking the steering, but once the toggle was moved to the lock position, it could not be unlocked until the ignition key was inserted and turned. One other thing, recently in San Diego, Calif., an off duty cop was driving a Toyota when the vehicle went to WFO. The car accelerated to 100 mph and in the ensuing crash he and his family were killed. I read somewhere that that was a "keyless" system of some sort. I don't know whether or not that was true, but in any event, if it happens to any one of us, for God's sake, kick the tranny into neutral and break. Sure, the engine will over-rev and likely blow, but so what.

Evan
01-29-2010, 08:59 PM
Just apply the brakes and bring the vehicle to a stop. There isn't a vehicle made that the brakes cannot overide the engine even at WOT.

JTToner
01-29-2010, 09:07 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe the cop in the Toyota smoked his breaks. I heard his cellphone conversation just before he crashed. I'll try to Google it. I honestly didn't pay too much attention to the details of the incident, just the overall tragedy of it.

MotorradMike
01-29-2010, 09:08 PM
My wife's car is affected. It's a 2009 Corolla. The throttle has no linkage, it's 'drive by wire' and also manual transmission.
The throttle response is ridiculous, but perfectly safe, 'nuff said. I suspect the throttle response was optimized for an automatic so ...

I bought Toyota stock today because I believe in those guys, they make VERY reliable(boring) products. If this was a GM, Ford, or Chrysler issue there would be no news because it has happened before, many times.

American Engineering is among the worlds best. Fluke, HP, Tektronix ...
American automotive Engineering? - not impressed

My therapist forbids me to discuss American Automotive Engineering.
Best leave me alone.


Mike

J Tiers
01-29-2010, 09:09 PM
Just apply the brakes and bring the vehicle to a stop. There isn't a vehicle made that the brakes cannot overide the engine even at WOT.

Oh, that is a myth....... if you have air-assist brakes, and you almost certainly do, the vacuum is what runs them. If you bleed off the vacuum, as with WOT, then the brake pedal pressure may go up 4 to 10x. A 98 lb woman is not going to hold that.

As for the wheel lock, it is NOT TRUE

a) that only pulling the key locks the wheel.

b) that turning off the engine locks the wheel.

At least not in any Chevy I have driven. You must press a button and turn the key all the way to the removal position before it locks.

The key need not be actually removed. But the extra action of pushing the button is required to get there. I agree that becomes automatic, but........

Now, without engine, the effort to turn the wheel goes WAY up, especially as you come to a stop. So the 98 lb woman may as well have a locked wheel.

JTToner
01-29-2010, 09:13 PM
Okay, I just Googled san diego cop killed in toyota and the story came up along with the 911 cellphone call. Sorry, but when I tried to copy the URL but it just played the video. I'm really not that computer savy. Anyway, Google san diego cop killed in toyota and it will take you there.

Evan
01-29-2010, 09:14 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe the cop in the Toyota smoked his breaks

Smoked disk brakes? I find that hard to believe. Disk brakes will work up to red hot. The braking system has far greater ability to lock the wheels than the engine has to turn them. Even at WOT the brakes should be able to lock the wheels.

oldtiffie
01-29-2010, 09:15 PM
http://search.abc.net.au/search/search.cgi?query=toyota+recall&collection=abcnews&form=news&num_ranks=20

http://search.news.com.au/search?q=toyota+recall&sid=&us=&as=&ac=&r=typed

Evan
01-29-2010, 09:19 PM
If you bleed off the vacuum, as with WOT, then the brake pedal pressure may go up 4 to 10x. A 98 lb woman is not going to hold that.



The vacuum doesn't bleed off at WOT. If it did every vehicle on the road would have to be recalled. Even with the engine off there is enough reserve vacuum for a couple of stops.

Your Old Dog
01-29-2010, 09:27 PM
All our modern vehicles' steering locks up when the ignition is switched off. I don't think that would be very safe. I'd rather move the shift selector to neutral and let the engine self-destruct. At least I'd retain directional control that way.

Orrin

Of course you're right. I wish they would spend far more time conditioning Toyota drivers to put the car in neutral and move off the road. They should tell people to practice putting there car in neutral while they are driving so it's nearly a reflex. The problem is people are panicking and not realizing how easy it is to keep themselves safe. If you have a Toyota in your family you should discus what to do at the dinner table so your loved ones will be ready.

edited to add:


Oops. Sorry for the brain fart. The steering only locks when removing the ignition key. Perhaps that same sort of confusion is why some people have not turned off the ignition when their throttle stuck.

Orrin

Well obviously I hadn't taken the time to think that through or my responce above would have been different. This is people need to talk this through.

Rookie machinist
01-29-2010, 09:36 PM
Very easy to overheat the brakes on a production vehicle doing a 100+ at WOT. Unless you are driving a sports car the brakes will fade rapidly. The officer in the call stated he had the brakes fully pressed and the car was still accelerating. Why he did not shift into neutral is unknow.

Willy
01-29-2010, 09:39 PM
Selecting neutral and or applying the brakes will stop any vehicle, turning off the ignition takes longer if you have the luxury of time. These actions take common sense and training.
When was the last time you saw any of that out there?

Evan
01-29-2010, 09:50 PM
Unless you are driving a sports car the brakes will fade rapidly.

I have never had any trace of brake fade with disk brakes. They will take repeated panic stops from hiway speeds.

Willy
01-29-2010, 09:58 PM
I agree, I have yet to see any vehicle that cannot make at least one panic stop at 100 mph without incurring brake fade.

Even with a 98 lb women at the wheel without power assist...in panic mode once the adrenaline kicks in she'll push that pedal through the floor!

Well I did have a ride in a Yugo about five years ago that didn't inspire a lot of confidence...but it sure as hell wouldn't go a hundred.:D

Doc Nickel
01-29-2010, 10:17 PM
Just apply the brakes and bring the vehicle to a stop. There isn't a vehicle made that the brakes cannot overide the engine even at WOT.

-Besides being incorrect on a merely pedantic level (a 6,000-HP Top Fuel dragster has just two small discs on the back, none on the front, and relies on a parachute for most of it's braking) the issue is one of time.

Brakes fade, but the engine will keep going until it runs out of fuel or is shut off.

A few panic stops at highways speeds are easy. Any car with the brakes in decent condition can do that. But it's very, very common to overwork and fade even good brakes, for example by going down long steep hills, especially with any kind of load (extra passengers, a bunch of stuff in the trunk, towing a trailer, etc.)

Or, in this case, if the engine is putting out maximum power trying to keep the car going.

Brakes are designed to absorb and release a certain amount of heat- but no more. The rotor heats up, the pad surfaces scorch and glaze, and eventually the fluid boils. No, it doesn't happen often, but it does and can happen. Race-level components can still stop reliably with red-hot rotors, but for us average guys, if the rotor's glowing, you have basically no braking power at all.

Yes, the correct fix is to put it in neutral, get control of the vehicle and begin slowing it back down, and then shut the engine off.

Doc.

aostling
01-29-2010, 10:21 PM
From the NHTSA recall database: "TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA VEHICLES. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION."

Here it is without NHTSA's ALL CAPS (which makes it unreadable):

"Toyota is recalling certain model year 2005-2010 Avalon, model year 2007-2010 Camry, model year 2009-2010 Corolla, Corolla Matrix, RAV4, model year 2010 Highlander, model year 2008-2010 Sequoia, and model year 2007-2010 Tundra vehicles. Due to the manner in which the friction lever interacts with the sliding surface of the accelerator pedal inside the pedal sensor assembly, the sliding surface of the lever may become smooth during vehicle operation. In this condition, if condensation occurs on the surface, as may occur from heater operation (without a/c) when the pedal assembly is cold, the friction when the accelerator pedal is operated may increase, which may result in the accelerator pedal becoming harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."

J Tiers
01-29-2010, 10:27 PM
The vacuum doesn't bleed off at WOT. If it did every vehicle on the road would have to be recalled. Even with the engine off there is enough reserve vacuum for a couple of stops.

The vacuum assist in the S-10 does indeed drop off with a lower pressure differential across the throttle. Other cars have been similar.

No recall needed, how often do you need the brakes while you have the throttle floored? Not often, so that would be not seen as an issue unless more failure scenarios are examined. Yes, the "knew or should have known" whine does apply here. A car company which goes non-mechanical with no backup system needs to do detailed failure analysis..*

yes, there is a reservoir. No it isn't enough for a "couple stops", it can be depleted fairly fast if you hit the brakes several times in fairly fast succession, since the bleed-off air can't be enough to adversely affect performance.

if you DO succeed in turning off the engine, the brake pedal force will go up pretty quick, especially if you hit the brakes more than once.

But since a properly designed vehicle, like the lowly Chevy, does NOT, repeat NOT lock the wheel if the engine is turned off (unless additional actions are performed), you should be able to kill the engine and steer it off the road, although it may be pretty stiff steering when the vehicle slows down.

If the fancy Toyotas have gone back to the starter button, everyone who drives one should already know how to shut it down, what on earth do they do when they park the car?

* The new thing is supposed to be non-mechanical fly by wire steering..... and brakes, etc. Doesn't this whole deal give you a warm fuzzy feeling about that?

The Artful Bodger
01-29-2010, 10:32 PM
If I ever face that in my Ford I will put the trans into reverse. That has happened a couple of times inadvertantly and each time the engine stopped instantly so I can only assume there is some safety device that cuts the engine in that situation. If that does not kill the engine the torque converter will have it guts ripped out but at least the vehicle will stop.

I was taught that brakes are to stop the vehicle, not adjust its speed.

I have no confidence that the brakes could stop the vehicle and stall the WOT engine especially as before that happens the trans will move to low ratio and the torque converter will be in its full torque multiplication mode.

J Tiers
01-29-2010, 10:36 PM
I have no confidence that the brakes could stop the vehicle and stall the WOT engine especially as before that happens the trans will move to low ratio and the torque converter will be in its full torque multiplication mode.

Oh, yeah, those pesky automatic trannys....... I hate the dang things..... but it's getting so you can't avoid them.

The Artful Bodger
01-29-2010, 10:40 PM
Oh, yeah, those pesky automatic trannys....... I hate the dang things..... but it's getting so you can't avoid them.

For sure, with a manual transmission you could just shove it into neutral and ignore the cresendo!

MotorradMike
01-29-2010, 10:44 PM
Apply brakes with WOT while moving.

If you can't stop the car take it:
a) to the shop
b) to the drag strip

Or, if you throw your hands up in the air and yell "Let Jesus take the wheel" then quit driving.
Jesus might be busy.


Mike

Willy
01-29-2010, 10:46 PM
For sure, with a manual transmission you could just shove it into neutral and ignore the cresendo!

Last I looked there is a neutral position on the automatic's shift gate as well.

MickeyD
01-29-2010, 10:49 PM
This surfaced today on the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803971.html

Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints



Toyota Motor (http://financial.washingtonpost.com/custom/wpost/html-qcn.asp?dispnav=business&mwpage=qcn&symb=TM&nav=el) began facing complaints of runaway cars years ago, but the company did not install "brake override" systems in those vehicles, even as several other automakers deployed the technology to address such malfunctions.



The brake override systems allow a driver to stop a car with the footbrake even if the accelerator is depressed and the vehicle is running at full throttle. The systems are an outgrowth of new electronics in cars, specifically in engine control.
"If the brake and the accelerator are in an argument, the brake wins," a spokesman at Chrysler said in describing the systems, which it began installing in 2003.
Volkswagen (http://financial.washingtonpost.com/custom/wpost/html-qcn.asp?dispnav=business&mwpage=qcn&symb=VLKAF&nav=el), Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz also install such systems in at least some of their cars, the companies and industry experts said, some as far back as 10 years ago. General Motors (http://financial.washingtonpost.com/custom/wpost/html-qcn.asp?dispnav=business&mwpage=qcn&symb=GM&nav=el) installs brake override in all of its cars in which it is possible for the engine at full throttle to overwhelm the brakes.....




The rest of the article is well worth reading. I bet this story is going to go on for a long time and will get pretty ugly.

wierdscience
01-29-2010, 10:57 PM
Last I looked there is a neutral position on the automatic's shift gate as well.

Yes,maybe assuming that your actually shifting anything,afterall these people aren't actually mashing a throttle.

All this because of a possible shift to hybrids or all electrics at some point in the future.

F4134
01-29-2010, 10:57 PM
A few notes on brakes on vehicles currently sold in the US:

Brakes on light duty vehicles sold in the US are certified to FMVSS 135 (federal motor vehicle safety standard). Note that this is the minimum performance standard for brakes.

For power assisted brakes (vacuum booster, hydroboost, or other assist systems) the relevant section is the section of FMVSS 135 called engine off performance. To make this stop, a test driver accelerates the vehicle to 100 kph, turns the engine off, applies the brake pedal to 500 N and holds it there to bring the vehicle to a stop. Note that it is one apply only. There are no standards for multiple brake applies in a low vacuum situation such as wide open throttle. There are no legal requirements to provide additional assist capability beyond a single apply for a single stop.

Brake fade:

It is fairly easy to fade the brakes on most standard, non performance oriented vehicles. The fade requirements in FMVSS 135 are fairly modest. The brake fade portion of FMVSS 135 basically consists of 15 brake snubs, two hot performance stops, 4 cooling stops with a specified distance of vehicle travel between them, and 2 recovery stops. The stopping distances are compared to unfaded brake performance stops performed earlier in the test sequence.

Most passenger car brake linings are a compromise for fade performance in order to optimize for lining wear, rotor wear, NVH, and brake dust. Make 10, 60 mph, stops in a row and the stopping performance at stop 10 will be significantly worse than the first stop. The brakes will be smoking at this point. Make 3-5 more stops and the potential exists to see flames. Note also that the longer the brakes are applied, the greater the tendency for brake fluid boil in the calipers.

While there may be an internal (to the automotive company, not a government mandate) functional requirement that the brake system be able to hold the vehicle while stopped against a wide open throttle application, there is not necessarily a requirement that mandates that the brake system be capable of bringing the vehicle to a halt from speed at wide open throttle.

Evan
01-29-2010, 11:14 PM
Toyota Motor began facing complaints of runaway cars years ago, but the company did not install "brake override" systems in those vehicles, even as several other automakers deployed the technology to address such malfunctions.



The brake override systems allow a driver to stop a car with the footbrake even if the accelerator is depressed and the vehicle is running at full throttle. The systems are an outgrowth of new electronics in cars, specifically in engine control.
"If the brake and the accelerator are in an argument, the brake wins," a spokesman at Chrysler said in describing the systems, which it began installing in 2003.
Volkswagen, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz also install such systems in at least some of their cars, the companies and industry experts said, some as far back as 10 years ago. General Motors installs brake override in all of its cars in which it is possible for the engine at full throttle to overwhelm the brakes.....



First of all just what models are those that can overwhelm the brakes? That alone is cause for a recall.

This is beginning to smell a lot like a legal tort law issue, not a technical problem. This first hit the streets whe Audi had unintentional acceleration problems years ago. It was never shown that there was any sort of part failure. The best guess was that drivers were accidentally hitting the gas instead of the brake.

Brake overrides are unecessary since the braking system is mechanical/hydraulic, not fly by wire. There isn't a production vehicle made where the brakes cannot overwhelm the engine in any gear. Brakes are sized as they are to match the performance of the vehicle. The brakes can lock up the wheels at any speed the vehicle is capable of moving at. That represents far more torque capability than the engine can exert.

In the case of Audi many tests were run in all possible circumstances. It was conclusively shown that the brakes could easily stop the vehicle regardless of throttle application. The only reason for a brake override system is to cover ass in court. Making a big deal about it in the press will ensure that it becomes a big deal in any court case in the minds of the jurors no matter what evidence is presented in court.

Evan
01-29-2010, 11:17 PM
It is fairly easy to fade the brakes on most standard, non performance oriented vehicles. The fade requirements in FMVSS 135 are fairly modest. The brake fade portion of FMVSS 135 basically consists of 15 brake snubs, two hot performance stops, 4 cooling stops with a specified distance of vehicle travel between them, and 2 recovery stops. The stopping distances are compared to unfaded brake performance stops performed earlier in the test sequence.

Most passenger car brake linings are a compromise for fade performance in order to optimize for lining wear, rotor wear, NVH, and brake dust. Make 10, 60 mph, stops in a row and the stopping performance at stop 10 will be significantly worse than the first stop. The brakes will be smoking at this point. Make 3-5 more stops and the potential exists to see flames. Note also that the longer the brakes are applied, the greater the tendency for brake fluid boil in the calipers.



That doesn't sound "modest" to me and it is far more than enough to deal with an open throttle situation.

deeman
01-29-2010, 11:30 PM
Like most things in life there isn`t 1 right way to do anything,it depends on the situation.Throwing a vehicle in neutral while traveling up a hill in a multi lane highway that has a fair amount of traffic can lead to causing a major wreck when vehicles are not expecting it.If there is no one close behind you,applying a little brake while shutting off the engine would work fine,when leaving it in gear and shutting it down, there is the extra drag of the drive train working for you.You do not need power steering when driving down the road anyway,parking lots,yes.The problem is developing a strategy for the public which aren`t capable of thinking the situation out.The current strategy seems to be throwing it immediately into neutral and head for the shoulder,most modern cars have rev limiters when in neutral,however damage could still result from a WOT situation.Personally i like braking until i get a chance to shut it down...brake fade is not going to occur in a handful of seconds and it gives me a chance to work through any flow of traffic by actually releasing brake pressure and gaining speed if necessary to navigate through traffic and get off the road.

MickeyD
01-29-2010, 11:30 PM
What do you drive Evan, a VW Bug? My truck has 300 HP and would be a bear to stop with a hung throttle, especially if you were going down a steep mountain or on a slick road. Not having a brake override is just stupid and lazy on the part of Toyota and is just a couple of lines of code. I like Toyota, but they really screwed the pooch on this one and it will cost them a lot to fix it and their image.

F4134
01-29-2010, 11:31 PM
A fair number of 2wd pickup trucks or SUVs with the larger engines have the potential to move the vehicle at wide open throttle while having the brakes applied. The front wheels may be locked and sliding, but the combination of final drive gearing, 1st gear in the trans, and the torque converter torque multiplication will overcome the available torque of the rear brakes and cause the vehicle to move.

Try it sometime when in a safe location to do so. Brief periods only as this behavior will cause very rapid trans fluid heating with potential transmission damage.

F4134
01-29-2010, 11:38 PM
Modest brake fade requirements:

FMVSS 135 fade requirements are modest compared to other fade performance testing as well as race track requirements. For instance there is a magazine performance test in Europe that calls for 10 100 KPH stops, performed as rapidly as possible at fully laden weight. The scoring on this test comes from the delta in stopping distance from stop 1 to stop 10.

The earlier brake standard, FMVSS 105, had a much more comprehensive fade testing section, but it is only applicable to medium duty trucks anymore.

Doozer
01-29-2010, 11:40 PM
This whole accelerator pedal deal just shows how stupid the public really is. If you can't react and turn off the key or put the car in neutral, you should not be driving. If you freeze in a panic situation that requires just a little bit of thought, DON'T DRIVE. Driving is full of these situations. I've driven cars that got a stuck throttle, lost the bakes, spun in circles, been sideways at 55 mph, had a rear axle seize up, front wheel seize up, transmission stuck in 3rd gear, broken clutch linkage, fire under the hood, fire under the car, etc. I've even got out of a moving vehicle, and managed to get back in. No problem at all. Just handle it. If you have the mental ability of a 16 year old child, stay off the road.

--Doozer

Willy
01-29-2010, 11:42 PM
I had a an old Dodge years ago, 375 HP 440, 4 bbl carb, and drum brakes. Because of a weak motor mount the throttle linkage bound up once under full throttle at 75 mph!
All I had to do was hit the brakes, it slowed to about 35 mph under full throttle before I turned the ignition switch off.
I am sure glad that I didn't know that I needed a brake override switch, although I will admit that not working against the engine as well will aide in shortening the stopping distance.

Doozer
01-29-2010, 11:43 PM
"Not having a brake override is just stupid and lazy on the part of Toyota and is just a couple of lines of code. I like Toyota, but they really screwed the pooch on this one and it will cost them a lot to fix it and their image."

Get real.
--Doozer

deeman
01-29-2010, 11:46 PM
Exactly my thoughts Doozer...but they are driving...millions of them.

F4134
01-29-2010, 11:49 PM
Willy:

You'd be surprised at how effective self energizing drum brakes can be. They will provide a much higher level of torque output for a given brake line pressure input than any equivalently sized disc brake.

Doozer
01-29-2010, 11:53 PM
My '53 International has servo action drum brakes.
Yes they do actuate nicely, with little pedal effort.
Only one day did I discover that because they have
single sided slave cylinders, there is no servo
action in reverse!!?! I managed to stop and lived to
tell the tale.

--Doozer

Willy
01-30-2010, 12:00 AM
Willy:

You'd be surprised at how effective self energizing drum brakes can be. They will provide a much higher level of torque output for a given brake line pressure input than any equivalently sized disc brake.

Not really, I have been a commercial long distance truck driver most of my adult life. 140,000 lb loads, 3,500-5,000 miles a week, for close to 40 years, I have a lot of respect for drum brakes, but they do fade faster.

New regulations are being written and are coming into effect soon to dramatically reduce stopping distances for commercial trucks.
Which way is the braking technology going for commercial trucks?
Disc brakes.

A.K. Boomer
01-30-2010, 12:01 AM
Just apply the brakes and bring the vehicle to a stop. There isn't a vehicle made that the brakes cannot overide the engine even at WOT.


Evan, Your not only dangerous - Your losing it --- listen to JT --- or more important listen to me,

If some lady panics and starts pumping the brakes around a turn the power brake unit will be bled of all vacuum assist in just a few pumps (its only a little reservoir and a check valve),,, if this happens on some land barge go back to what JT stated about the pressure that some 98 pound woman is able to put on the pedal in order to stop her ford excursion ------------ Another little piece of physics that you left behind - If the throttle is stuck at wide open then you have just given up your ability to produce any effective vacuum, on some vehicles even a full grown couch potato wont be able to slow the engine :rolleyes:

My advice is for you to get some velcro shoes because its obvious your going to have trouble with laces --- also stay away from anything sharper than a butter knife and use them only under adult supervision because you could still swallow one, Once again your yapping yer gums and have wondered into another one of my realms -- and once again you will be spanked --- get your act together esp. when it comes to safety issue's because other people are actually reading this crap, have a nice day...

Arcane
01-30-2010, 12:08 AM
This whole accelerator pedal deal just shows how stupid the public really is. If you can't react and turn off the key or put the car in neutral, you should not be driving. If you freeze in a panic situation that requires just a little bit of thought, DON'T DRIVE. Driving is full of these situations. I've driven cars that got a stuck throttle, lost the bakes, spun in circles, been sideways at 55 mph, had a rear axle seize up, front wheel seize up, transmission stuck in 3rd gear, broken clutch linkage, fire under the hood, fire under the car, etc. I've even got out of a moving vehicle, and managed to get back in. No problem at all. Just handle it. If you have the mental ability of a 16 year old child, stay off the road.

--Doozer

I couldn't agree more! I spent the last 35 years with a Class 1A licence (CDL to some) and have raced Stock Cars and driven high performance street cars (and motorcycles and snowmobiles too)!
It's winter time here and most roads and almost all streets are icy and slippery as all get out. In these conditions, anybody experiencing a stuck throttle and trying to overpower the engine with just the brakes is going to immediately lose control of their vehicle! In summer, you probably won't have the extended stopping distance needed to even try to overpower the brakes, especially in traffic, even at relatively slow speeds, when you consider most people will give a vehicle considerably more throttle while accelerating then needed when steady state driving.
First choice is definitely putting the tranny into neutral, second would be to turn the ignition off, without engaging the steering column lock. Trying to overpower the engine with the brakes would just be plain foolish.

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 12:15 AM
Doozer, my mom is 73 years old and weighs 110 pounds and drives one of these with this issue. My dad is 75 and has two artificial knees and drives it to. I rolled their car in the driveway to move it and it does not stop worth a damn with the engine off (I almost hit the fence). If a 73 year old woman thinks fast enough to turn off the key she ends up with no brakes or power steering which is not a whole lot better than a stuck throttle. You and Evan might be world class drivers who can deal with any situation, but there are a lot of old people, young drivers, mothers with a car load of kids, or even someone who might hit you because they cannot stop. Just because Toyota is Japanese and not from Detroit does not mean that they do not screw up.

Evan
01-30-2010, 12:16 AM
When I was about 17 I had a summer jog for a couple of months driving for Chevron Research in the SF Bay Area. They were testing the new unleaded gas formulas. We had six vehicles, 2 each from GM, Ford and Chrysler. One night I was driving the Ford Fairlane 500 with big block V8. We drove a set route in pairs and on a regular basis we would have short drag races at 3am when the streets we empty.

On one night we had a race and I mashed the throttle. After a hundred yards or so I let off but it didn't. It was stuck wide open so I hit the brakes and pulled over no problem. That was all drum brakes back then and the engines had none of the severe anti pollution crap hanging all over them. It had plenty of power but stopping it wasn't even a bit of a problem. The motor mount had broken and the engine lifted from the torque bending the throttle linkage so it wouldn't return. That incident resulted in a recall for the engine mounts.

I would sure like to know just what models can overwhelm today's disk brakes.

The Artful Bodger
01-30-2010, 12:28 AM
Trying to overpower the engine with the brakes would just be plain foolish.

I could not agree more, suppose the engine is outputing some like 100 or 200Kw, how much energy do the brakes have to dissapate to stop the engine? You cannot just suddenly lock the wheels if you have ABS. Although you might have four wheels with the most powerful brakes on the front the lion's share of overcoming the engine might fall to the rear wheels (in a 2WD RWD car).

Although shoving it into reverse would be my first action (in the past that has stopped the engine almost instantly with no apparent damage) I cannot say for sure that the transmission would respond to my command inputs anyway. If the engine management computer is in some locked up state maybe the transmission controls will not work either.

Might be time to look for a patch of scrub!:eek:

Evan
01-30-2010, 12:37 AM
Modern electronic transmissions will ignore reverse if the car is make forward progress much faster than a few miles per hour. An ABS system will actually help in a situation with a stuck throttle since it will transfer the braking effort to the wheels that are still rolling. Heading for the weeds at speed is just plain stupid. Placing the transmission in neutral is guaranteed to make an inexperienced driver panic even more as the engine revs to redline making it sound like the vehicle is going even faster.

All I can say is before inserting feet deeper in mouths, try the brakes against the engine in whatever vehicle you have. I will be very interested to hear if any of them can be made to move with the brakes firmly on, 1st gear and full throttle.

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 12:41 AM
Evan, you can start with the 2009 Lexus ES350 that the California Hwy patrolman was driving (it was a loaner from the dealer while his car was in for service) when the throttle stuck. The investigation showed that the brakes were burned out by the time he crashed and killed himself and three family members. ( http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/31/bn31chp-lexus-crash/ ).

From the previously mentioned Washington Post article:

"Afterward, investigators said that it appeared the brakes had been applied for so long that the brake pads melted, according to a report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Had a brake override system been at work, the engine would have been depowered -- not turned off, but slowed"

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 12:44 AM
Evan - why don't you go back to making sub tenth micron cuts on your Southbend and quit spouting nonsense. At least those delusions don't involve life and death...

The Artful Bodger
01-30-2010, 12:56 AM
Modern electronic transmissions will ignore reverse if the car is make forward progress much faster than a few miles per hour. Well mine does not (neither is it really 'modern'), what it does it instantly cuts the engine dead. All the sensation the driver is the same as loosing a drive belt, the dash lights up, there is a loss of power steering and tacho sinks to zero.




Heading for the weeds at speed is just plain stupid. You are a pilot, right? What did you learn about the best terrain for a forced landing?

If you cannot stop the vehicle and colliding with something is your only option then there is nothing better than scrub to give you a survivable stop.



All I can say is before inserting feet deeper in mouths, try the brakes against the engine in whatever vehicle you have. I will be very interested to hear if any of them can be made to move with the brakes firmly on, 1st gear and full throttle.

Not relevant, the situation is totally different. Brakes on, standing start with a manual transmission will burn the clutch or it stall the engine without damage. Brakes on, standing start with an auto transmission will cook the torque converter. In neither case would the brakes bear the brunt.

Highway speed, WOT, brakes on fully will require the brakes to not only stop the vehicle but also overwhelm the engine. The engine is producing maximum power for the time that it takes the vehicle to stop, how ever long that time is multiply that by the engine output to determine what energy the brakes must handle, plus the power dissipation requirement of actually stopping the vehicle.

What did you say about aphtae epizooticae?

Doozer
01-30-2010, 01:12 AM
"Doozer, my mom is 73 years old and weighs 110 pounds and drives one of these with this issue. My dad is 75 and has two artificial knees and drives it to....
...but there are a lot of old people, young drivers, mothers with a car load of kids, or even someone who might hit you because they cannot stop. "

Mickey-
If these people do not have full command of their vehicle, they should not be driving it. Plain and simple. I think your parents should stop driving.

--Doozer

beanbag
01-30-2010, 01:13 AM
I tried the following test on my wimpy little 1.8L engine:

1st gear: mash throttle and use left foot braking.
First pump: stopping no problem
Second pump: uh ohhhhhh
Third pump: oooohhhhh shi-

I could not stop the car

In second gear, I can barely slow down the car if I mash the brake pedal with all my might.

Disclaimer: Professional driver, closed course :)

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 01:25 AM
Doozer, you are dumber than Evan and proud of it. Tell that to the what is left of Mark Saylor's family (the ones who were lucky enough not to be in the Lexus). I guess he was too old and feeble at 45 after working as a highway patrolman for the last 19 years also. Toyota did not implement an industry wide software safety protocol and now they have a big problem.

Black_Moons
01-30-2010, 01:33 AM
I find it amazing brakes work as well as they do.

Think: 100hp is the equivilent of over 70,000 watts!
To be able to stop a 100hp motor, your brakes will have to disipate over 70,000 watts continiously untill the car stops. (Engine + power stored in cars momentium) I wonder how long it takes 100,000+ watts to melt a brake rotar sized chunk of metal.

keeping a car from going in 1st is a lot easyer then stoping a car at 100kph with the engine at its peak power rpm and all the energy stored in the cars momentium.
Also note, 'slowing down' does not count, you have to come to a complete stop before your brakes overheat.

Doozer
01-30-2010, 01:34 AM
A highway patrolman should have been able to figure out how to put the car in neutral, don't ya think??!?
So are you saying that because people are dumb that their car should think for them?
If I wanted to stick my dick in a toaster, should the toaster have an interlock preventing me from doing so? I don't think so.
--Doozer

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Doozer, the car already thinks and acts for you. Anti-lock brakes, stability control, airbags, even power steering and brakes. If it makes you feel insecure that your car might be smarter than you are, you might try this one.

http://www.pedalcarusa.com/images/Mustang/PCUSA_Feature_Image.jpg

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 02:00 AM
All I can say is before inserting feet deeper in mouths, try the brakes against the engine in whatever vehicle you have. I will be very interested to hear if any of them can be made to move with the brakes firmly on, 1st gear and full throttle.

-Two entirely different scenarios.

Stopped car, apply brake, mash throttle: Tricky with a stick unless you have three legs, but with an automatic, most cars will probably hold, as you surmise. My Toronado could fairly easily overwhelm the original drums, but my all-disc retrofit is considerably stronger.

However, moving car, mash throttle, then apply brake? Now you're dealing with the maximum or near-maximum HP of the engine, plus the momentum of the already-moving car. The brakes no longer simply have to hold a stationary object stationary, they have to absorb energy from the moving system.

The brakes are rated to stop the car itself, plus a comfortable margin of error. Tack on top of that, the additional power trying to keep the car going, and it might take just seconds to overwhelm the energy-absorbing capability of the brakes.

While there's only a fixed amount of inertia in a rolling car- and the brakes are designed to bleed it off long before reaching their own limits- there's an effectively unlimited amount of energy continually being put into the system with a runaway engine. The brakes are NOT designed to cope with that- for more than a few seconds, anyway- and eventually the engine will overwhelm the brakes unless additional steps are taken.

Doc.

The Artful Bodger
01-30-2010, 02:10 AM
If I wanted to stick my dick in a toaster, should the toaster have an interlock preventing me from doing so? I don't think so.
--Doozer

I remember hearing about a guy who worked at a sauce factory and developed an obsession about putting his dick in the pickle slicer, the boss heard about it and sacked them both.

Evan
01-30-2010, 03:41 AM
Read this and then try to extricate foot.

From Car and Driver magazine


Hit the Brakes

Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

The Artful Bodger
01-30-2010, 03:48 AM
What does this mean exactly?


With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph

Evan
01-30-2010, 03:54 AM
It means wide open throttle, foot full down on the pedal and pinned to the floor.

They also tested this car:



We included the powerful Roush Mustang to test—in the extreme—the theory that “brakes are stronger than the engine.” From 70 mph, the Roush’s brakes were still resolutely king even though a pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance. However, from 100 mph, it wasn’t clear from behind the wheel that the Mustang was going to stop. But after 903 feet—almost three times longer than normal—the 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke.

dfw5914
01-30-2010, 04:24 AM
This whole accelerator pedal deal just shows how stupid the public really is. If you can't react and turn off the key or put the car in neutral, you should not be driving. If you freeze in a panic situation that requires just a little bit of thought, DON'T DRIVE. Driving is full of these situations. I've driven cars that got a stuck throttle, lost the bakes, spun in circles, been sideways at 55 mph, had a rear axle seize up, front wheel seize up, transmission stuck in 3rd gear, broken clutch linkage, fire under the hood, fire under the car, etc. I've even got out of a moving vehicle, and managed to get back in. No problem at all. Just handle it. If you have the mental ability of a 16 year old child, stay off the road.

--Doozer

Spot on!

Idiot proofing is not possible.

There are at least three different OBVIOUS ways to stop a vehicle with a stuck throttle.

Occasionally people will die in car accidents, some of them will be due to some sort of less than perfect engineering. This will never change.

deeman
01-30-2010, 05:41 AM
Again we go back to saving the uneducated from themselves...what if they are pumping the brakes?
Then they are uneducated.

The brakes will fade after time therefore thats no good...
The idea of using the brakes is to maintain some control,it doesn`t have to be all or nothing.

The idea of throwing a car into reverse at WOT is...well you guess
Most are here because we appreciate machinery.

Not all vehicles are automatics..
If you are in high gear leave it there and it gives you another option...if not you have a clutch and ignition key

We can play the what if scenario all day...
The bottom line is you can try to educate people,some will get it,others never will.Some can think around machinery,most cannot ,especially in a panic situation.There will always be people who saw there leg off with a skill saw,spin themselves up in a lathe,shoot themselves in the foot when cleaning a gun and the list goes on forever.The brakes are a tool and working with other options the tool is to be used in an appropriate manner.Its not a use the brakes and or don`t use the brakes situation.That is why the current thinking is to shift into neutral...try to take the thinking out of the equation and apply it to all.

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 06:21 AM
Evan,
Have you ever though about reading a few pots to get information on the subject being discussed then replying instead of your usual second post *FAKE* post, then throwing a bone into the conversation ?

I have a genuine great respect for a lot of the work and subjects you cover, there is no doubt you are a well read and well researched person.

However it's becomong more the norm for you to shoot off at a tangent on subjects that are either not within your scope, even if you think they are, or are better served by people with a greater hands on knowledge.

This forum is blessed with folk from all walks of life and some quite genuine people in these subjects as well, we have one here now F4134, a newbie with only 5 posts at presents who seems to know his stuff as he's probably worked with this data

I know who I'd like to believe.

The bottom line is Evan, you are very quickly loosing credibility.

.

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 06:23 AM
What does this mean exactly?

-It means they probably stood on it 'til it hit 70, then stood on the brakes.

While I defer to their results, I have to say they don't match my experiences. Though admittedly that's probably because I've never owned as new a car as they tested, meaning no ABS and only rarely new components (when I'd rebuild the brakes.)

I did actually have a runaway throttle once. '73 Dodge Dart Sport with a 225 Slant Six. Throttle return spring broke, pedal fell to the floor. Midwinter, snow and ice, all of a sudden the ass end wanted to swap the lead.

However, even being a "sport" model, the six wasn't exactly a fire-breather, and, being a three-speed manual, I just pushed in the clutch. :)

Once I stopped, I switched the engine off- which wouldn't have made any difference to the controls, since it was manual steering and manual brakes- and waited for it to stop "dieseling" for about thirty seconds. :D

I popped the hood and gave it a look- I thought the carb had frozen or iced up. Nope, without the spring, the weight of the linkage dropped the pedal to the floor. Fixed it with a bungee cord, which got me to work. And, moreover, worked so well I'd completely forgotten about it by that evening, and drove that way for two more days before I remembered. :)

Doc.

JCHannum
01-30-2010, 06:59 AM
The Car & Driver tests are obviously fakes, done with straw filled dummies.

Weston Bye
01-30-2010, 07:43 AM
About switching the key off, but not locking the steering:

Modern car regulations require interlocks to prevent the ignition switch from moving into the steering lock position unless the shifter is in the park position. I have dealt with a number of such systems, as well as brake-transmission-shift interlocks over the past 10 years. These systems involve various mechanical, cable and electrically actuated implementations. In the case of electrical interlocks, electrical power must remain available to the interlock system even when the switch is in the off position, only removed when the switch is in the lock position and the key is removed. Many people have run their battery down by leaving the car in the garage with the key in the switch for several days.

Indeed, turning off the key to stop the engine causes the loss of power steering and power brakes, but the car will come to a stop.

Pushing the shifter out of drive into neutral, over revving engine be damned, will bring the car to a better controlled stop.

Mashing on the brakes may, or may not, (Evan's certitude notwithstanding:D ) stop any or all cars.

All sorts of driver competence, traffic and road situation 'what ifs' can be injected into all the above options that make each one less than perfect, but the basic facts remain.

Doozer
01-30-2010, 08:28 AM
"Doozer, the car already thinks and acts for you. Anti-lock brakes, stability control, airbags, even power steering and brakes. If it makes you feel insecure that your car might be smarter than you are, you might try this one."

Mickey-
For what it's worth...
My everyday car is a '97 Lincoln town car.
I disabled the antilock brakes and the traction control.
I don't like the car thinking for me.
I can't see how power steering and brakes mean the car is thinking or
acting for me. It is a dumb kind of servo control. It does no decision
making. The brakes and steering do what I tel them. The ABS brake
system tries to think for me, and does a bad job almost every time.
If it makes you feel any better, my favorite vehicle to drive is my
'53 International, followed by the go-cart that I built. They have
manual everything. Riding in the woods, the brake rod on my go-
cart got snagged off. So it has not even had brakes for a while.
I gotta think quick to avoid hitting a tree!
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i169/kooldoozer/Machines%20and%20Stuff/IMG_0131.jpg
Hey Micky, look... It's even red!

--Doozer

Evan
01-30-2010, 08:37 AM
Have you ever though about reading a few pots to get information on the subject being discussed then replying instead of your usual second post *FAKE* post, then throwing a bone into the conversation ?



Now you have me completely baffled. What do you mean by *FAKE*?

Doozer
01-30-2010, 08:40 AM
I don't really put my dick in the toaster.
That was *FAKE*.
...But if the pickle slicer was cute, I'd consider that.
--Doozer

Evan
01-30-2010, 08:41 AM
It means they probably stood on it 'til it hit 70, then stood on the brakes.



You know better than that Doc. It means they probably stood on it 'til it hit 70, then stood on the brakes while still standing on the throttle.

JanvanSaane
01-30-2010, 09:23 AM
Law enforcement personnel should be better trained than most. After 10 seconds of trying to slow down on a set of semi metallic pads at high speeds they will fade. I used to bend wrenches back in the early 80s for a law enforcement agency. It was educational taking a vehicle with high performance brakes out on a "test" how brake fade would affect a vehicle. The harder the pad the better the better they do under high heat conditions,,, but,, the harder the pedal needs to be pushed to stop under mormal conditions. I do not run "lifetime metallic" pad on my personal vehicles. The vacuum reservoir should retain enough vacuum for two applications of the brakes and part of a third. I would not be surprized to see this highway patrolman was actually a desk jockey. I still know a few in law enforcement and any who had been on the streets would of calmly worked to the right, figured out the best way to shut it down and once a slow enough speed was attained pulled it to the shoulder. Law enforcement only sweat during long foot pursuits, they do not panic. John

Evan
01-30-2010, 09:36 AM
The Car and Driver test was of the same make and model as the police officer was driving. No fade was noted until the last test from 195 KmH (120mph).

About semi-metallic brake pads: They were developed for the express purpose of eliminating brake fade.




ProMax Auto Parts Depot Ltd.

The most complete coverage of Semi-Metallic Positive Mold Disc Brake Pads in Canada. Over 1000 applications available in stock.

Shimmed, Chamfered and Slotted, Low Dust, Quiet, high level of steel fibre for Extended Life.

ProMax Semi-Metallic Disc Brake Pads are very price competitive with an advantage of being Postive Mold product. They are guaranteed to be Fade Free, Noise Free and Long Service Life.

http://www.autopartsdepot.ca/semimetallicdiscbrakes.shtml

A.K. Boomer
01-30-2010, 09:39 AM
I tried the following test on my wimpy little 1.8L engine:

1st gear: mash throttle and use left foot braking.
First pump: stopping no problem
Second pump: uh ohhhhhh
Third pump: oooohhhhh shi-

I could not stop the car

In second gear, I can barely slow down the car if I mash the brake pedal with all my might.

Disclaimer: Professional driver, closed course :)


There ya go,,,, Like I stated earlier a few pumps and almost all is lost and this is exactly what happens ------- Main brakes generally will override engine power in production vehicles (except maybe for powerful vehicles equipped with 4wd low)

But lets all keep in mind that ALL modern vehicles have power assist -- lets also keep in mind that were talking about a stuck throttle --- stuck throttle = zero vacuum ---------- By all means use the brake pedal but having the knowledge in ones head that if you let up and press down again the next assist charge WILL be much weaker might help you avoid this mistake and possibly help save your life or the life of another...

So what do you do? You get it over with on the first try and never lift, you will have almost full assist and almost a normal brake system, (due to the check valve and storage capacity of the reservoir)
The only modern vehicles that are immune to this are diesels as they have no throttle plate and produce no vacuum to begin with (not talking older mercede's) They run a motor driven mechanical vacuum pump that will supply the booster with its needed assist vacuum regardless of what happens when your pedal sticks...

Knowing theory of operation could be key for survival in any situation that has potential life threatening danger ---------- making a broad statement of "just hit the brakes" is either irresponsible or more likely reeks of ignorance of how things work...

Good duty bean bag - in fact everyone should get out in the open and try this with their vehicle - it will give you respect for how bad things could get when your putting so much pressure on your brake pedal that you can start to feel it bending over sideways --- yet the car is gaining in speed:eek:

vpt
01-30-2010, 09:40 AM
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/The-Dog-That-Killed-A-For_730557.htm

vpt
01-30-2010, 09:52 AM
I've had vehicles where the throttle stuck on me. I always just had to tap the throttle a few times with my foot and it always popped back up. If not there is all kinds of stuff you can do but you need to have common sense. Shift to neutral, cars have rev limiters, it won't blow up. Shut the key off, you can still steer and stop the car with the key turned to the first off position. Simply standing on the brakes will stop the car. Tapping the throttle with your foot normally bring the pedal back.


I find it funny and kind of scary at the same time when I hear about people that panic in simple situations like a stuck throttle and go plowing into other cars on the road. Don't be stupid people!

J Tiers
01-30-2010, 09:57 AM
To the extremist who said that anybody who would....<do, or not do action "X"> or <could not do action "Y"> "should not be driving"......

Modern cars are made to allow many people to drive who could not drive a model T. There is not a thing wrong with that. Start with the electric start, that kept you from having to crank the engine by hand.... I prefer older cars that are not so "idiot proof", myself, but I don't particularly want to start hand cranking the engine. I have enough engines that I need to hand crank without the car and truck as well.

The requirement for driving is basically to be able to safely control the car, and find your destination. NOBODY is perfect, and there is NO training for emergency situations required for a driver's license. If there were, the streets would be filled with people walking.....

As for the "stand on the brakes" deal, in bringing a car to a safe stop on the highway, if you have shut off the engine, it is totally unrealistic and UNTHINKINGLY STUPID to assume that one may simply stand on the brakes until it stops.

You probably will have to maneuver through traffic to get to the side of the road where you may safely park, unless you are satisfied to screech to a stop in a traffic lane on a curve....... only to be clobbered by 6 cars plus a fuel tanker.

Therefore, it would make a LOT more sense to have some more than one application available with no engine power.

A brake over-ride takes away the argument about the brakes stopping the vehicle at WOT.

But it depends how that happens. I have some experience with safety systems, and one normally must ensure that they don't depend on a device that has failed in the failure scenario envisioned. And they should be as simple and direct as possible.

Unfortunately, many "consumer grade" devices are required to survive only a "single failure", meaning that it is assumed that only one thing happens. That may or may not be realistic, depending on the system. And "consumer grade" systems may depend on otherwise unreliable devices as a backup, are not required to "know" if the backup has already invisibly failed, etc.

The degree of redundancy is a lot less for a car than for an airplane. the government agencies are, perhaps somewhat cold-bloodedly, prepared to accept some property damage, injuries, and deaths in order to avoid adding large expense up front to consumer products. When there ARE injuries and deaths, they will react to the "proven threat". As a result, "safety" systems are more reliable when a standards organization such as UL requires them than when the NHTSA or CPSC requires them.

So, for instance, a "brake over-ride" that depends on decreasing the throttle setting via the normal throttle input path. If the pedal position sensor has failed "full on" that would work OK. But it would be completely useless if the normal throttle SETTING device has failed "full on".

it would be far better to attack a different part of the system, such as spark, or fuel flow, which are unrelated to the throttle system, and less likely to have failed at the same time.

I don't know what the carmakers use, I assume, perhaps wrongly, that they would not depend on one device for every scenario. But that may not be required by any regulations.

A.K. Boomer
01-30-2010, 10:06 AM
I find it funny and kind of scary at the same time when I hear about people that panic in simple situations like a stuck throttle and go plowing into other cars on the road. Don't be stupid people!


VPT, its really not funny at all and could happen to you in the future if you end up owning a "drive by wire" ride

Yes it would be hard to imagine a mechanical driven WO throttle plate seen were your in a parking lot pampering your vehicle along while some little old lady is in front of you, but Drive by wire opens up an entirely new can of worms in which electrical shorts or opens can cause sudden erratic behavior -------
This isnt a situation where your trying to decide if you should go for the key or hit the brakes --- the lady "was" two feet in front of you and now she's underneath your car... All you really have time for is to say the words "ohhh sheet"

vpt
01-30-2010, 10:08 AM
As for the "stand on the brakes" deal, in bringing a car to a safe stop on the highway, if you have shut off the engine, it is totally unrealistic and UNTHINKINGLY STUPID to assume that one may simply stand on the brakes until it stops.


And why is that? The brake still work with reserve vacuum and after the third pump when the vacuum runs out well, the brakes still work it just takes more effort.

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 10:08 AM
The Car and Driver test was of the same make and model as the police officer was driving. No fade was noted until the last test from 195 KmH (120mph).

About semi-metallic brake pads: They were developed for the express purpose of eliminating brake fade.
Evan, I don't think that Toyota puts those never fade racing pads on their generic or lower end cars. I have driven enough rental 4 banger Camrys to not be very impressed with their brakes. High performance metallic pads are much more likely to squeal (looks bad on customer surveys) than standard pads plus they are harder on rotors (more warranty work and lower satisfaction ratings).

Also, several of the reports indicate that returning the pedal to the normal throttle closed position does not return the engine to normal speeds (you can't hook your toe under it and pull it back up and have it slow down). So a software override throttling back engine power when the brakes are applied might have saved several lives plus it would have saved Toyota a lot of money.

vpt
01-30-2010, 10:10 AM
VPT, its really not funny at all and could happen to you in the future if you end up owning a "drive by wire" ride

Yes it would be hard to imagine a mechanical driven WO throttle plate seen were your in a parking lot pampering your vehicle along while some little old lady is in front of you, but Drive by wire opens up an entirely new can of worms in which electrical shorts or opens can cause sudden erratic behavior -------
This isnt a situation where your trying to decide if you should go for the key or hit the brakes --- the lady "was" two feet in front of you and now she's underneath your car... All you really have time for is to say the words "ohhh sheet"


If she is 2 feet in front of you I would imagine you are on the brakes. If the car went WOT it would move some but instant reaction would be to push hard on the brakes. No car will move from a dead stop with the brakes on no matter if it is WOT.

vpt
01-30-2010, 10:15 AM
Besides all this nonsense about just a stuck throttle what about the whole array of problems that can happen on the road? Brake line blows, brakes go to the floor at 70mph with stopped traffic ahead, now what? E-brakes suck, your not stopping.

What happens when a tie rod link comes apart? Front pass. side wheel goes to full lock and sends you spinning down the freeway.

Tire blows out and you roll your ford explorer.

Steering locks up.

Wheel falls off.

Etc. Etc.

I will take a stuck throttle over any of these any day!

A.K. Boomer
01-30-2010, 10:20 AM
If she is 2 feet in front of you I would imagine you are on the brakes. If the car went WOT it would move some but instant reaction would be to push hard on the brakes. No car will move from a dead stop with the brakes on no matter if it is WOT.


So what your saying is that your vehicle could go wide open throttle at any given time and you would never have a problem?

You either run 90/140wt for engine oil or your reaction time is superior to the point of psychic anticipation :p

vpt
01-30-2010, 10:22 AM
Yes that is what I am saying. If you don't know how to handle simple situations in a car I really hope I never have to ride with you.

Willy
01-30-2010, 10:22 AM
Well I will concede to the fact that not all vehicles have enough braking over capacity to overpower the engine at speed. My personal experiences are different, but I will admit far from all inclusive.

While I have a lot of respect for the evidence submitted by Evan in regards to the CAR/Driver article, as I am a subscriber, it too is not all inclusive and only reflects their experiences. They are reporting what they have witnessed.
However after reading another article on the same subject by Consumer Reports, an article that contradicts the findings of the C/D magazine findings I must admit that while I don't believe either article is trying to be deceitful, they do not represent all cars or all situations.

The Consumer Reports (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/15/consumer-reports-sees-what-happens-when-your-floor-mat-sticks/3)article in part:


With a large test track and a fleet of vehicles at their disposal, the magazine's engineers initially focused on the "just step hard on the brakes" method of bringing the car to a halt. Interestingly enough, CR tested a Mercedes-Benz E350 and a Volkswagen Jetta Wagon – both fitted with drive-by-wire "smart throttles" that are designed to ignore conflicting inputs (throttle and brake at the same time). CR reports that these cars simply shut down to idle and came safety to a stop. The story was a bit different with a Toyota Venza and Chevrolet HHR, however. When the brakes on those vehicles were firmly applied at 20 mph, their transmissions downshifted to fight the deceleration. The vehicles were both eventually brought to a stop after the first test. However, when the test was repeated at 60 mph on brakes that had been cooled since the earlier run, both vehicles quickly suffered fade from their overheated brakes and were unable to come to a complete stop.


What all this boils down to is what I stated in one of my first posts in this thread...common sense and training.
Unfortunately not all can react decisively under stress, the highway patrolman and his family paid the ultimate price for his all too common reaction of a death grip on the wheel, foot on the brake, and a panic induced lack of action. A simple nudge of the gear selector into neutral and they would still be with us.
While we all think we are good drivers, and it's all too easy to sit here and be an "armchair quarterback", not all can react decisively under a panic situation.
Although I have a table saw and hammer I will also admit that I am far from being a cabinet maker, I don't think like a cabinet maker when I have to react fast. So it is with driving, most do enough of it that we lull ourselves into thinking we can respond to all situations when it is all too clear this is not the case. Just look at the "accident",(and I use the term loosely) statistics.

vpt
01-30-2010, 10:35 AM
I would highly recommend any of you that have the extra time on the weekends to look up local auto-x events and go attend them with your car. You will learn tremendous amounts of knowledge in how to handle your car, what a car can and can't do, and it is absolute fun!



I race every weekend in the summer and I have an absolute blast and I have absolute total confidence in my driving.

Video of one of the local auto-x. This was a lapping day so there are a few cars on the track at once. Auto-x days it is one car at a time on the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOd0yw961eA

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 10:43 AM
(120mph).

About semi-metallic brake pads: They were developed for the express purpose of eliminating brake fade.

ProMax Auto Parts Depot Ltd.

The most complete coverage of Semi-Metallic Positive Mold Disc Brake Pads in Canada. Over 1000 applications available in stock.

Shimmed, Chamfered and Slotted, Low Dust, Quiet, high level of steel fibre for Extended Life.

ProMax Semi-Metallic Disc Brake Pads are very price competitive with an advantage of being Postive Mold product. They are guaranteed to be Fade Free, Noise Free and Long Service Life.

http://www.autopartsdepot.ca/semimet...scbrakes.shtml (http://www.autopartsdepot.ca/semimetallicdiscbrakes.shtml)

So these are fitted as OEM on all Toyota's then ?

.

Evan
01-30-2010, 10:50 AM
I guess you must not be reading all the posts John. That was a direct reply to the post just before mine. Go back and read it.

From post 77
Law enforcement personnel should be better trained than most. After 10 seconds of trying to slow down on a set of semi metallic pads at high speeds they will fade.

J Tiers
01-30-2010, 11:02 AM
And why is that? The brake still work with reserve vacuum and after the third pump when the vacuum runs out well, the brakes still work it just takes more effort.

VPT, you supposedly race, and may (or may not) be a good driver as a result, or whatever. I recommend that you try stopping some typical vehicles that are rolling down a shallow incline with no vacuum assist.

It may open your mind.

When a vehicle has assist, the designers don't need to make the pedal pressure acceptable when there IS NO assist. It still needs to be "possible" to stop the car, but the pedal pressure will be a lot more. AND THE STOPPING DISTANCE WILL BE EXTENDED VERSUS WITH ASSIST.

There are lots of drivers who would not be able to stop the vehicle without the assist, due to simply not having the weight and strength to do it.

Your answer would be to remove them all from the road...... Effective, but hardly useful/practical, etc

We had better ground all the Airbus and Boing aircraft immediately, since the pilot cannot control the aircraft if the power systems fail. The FAA should have asked YOU for your incredible insight before allowing them to fly.

The actual answer is that for safety systems there should be some redundancy. And the vehicle should announce that a backup system has failed, or it may be un-noticed and unavailable in time of need.

The typical "X-cross" redundant braking is an example. Left front/right rear and R front/L rear are on separate circuits. AND in sensible vehicles, there is a LATCHING piston switch that alerts to the failure of one system by detecting unequal pressures.

The assisted braking is fine IF you assume that it is OK to have "residual capability of braking" if it fails, even if that capability is greatly reduced. You may accept that failure means 3x stopping distance and 8x pedal pressure, in the "remote chance" that it fails.

You might have a different opinion on a mountain road in the dark.

Are you a Toyota shill?

Evan
01-30-2010, 11:12 AM
All drivers should be required to demonstrate that they can adequately control a car during a maximum effort braking stop on a wet skid pad, in order to obtain a licence to drive. As well, it should be mandatory that to obtain a full licence learners should be required to undergo professional driver instruction. It would greatly improve the average skill level of licenced drivers. This is the law in quite a few countries.

deeman
01-30-2010, 11:19 AM
There are TV shows about incompetent drivers but none about incompetent driving examiners that pass out licences to anyone that can put fog on a mirror.

vpt
01-30-2010, 11:21 AM
I have stopped cars and trucks before without power assist. If you can't stop a car without the power assist and the aid of the EMERGENCY brake you should again NOT be driving a car.

vpt
01-30-2010, 11:24 AM
All drivers should be required to demonstrate that they can adequately control a car during a maximum effort braking stop on a wet skid pad, in order to obtain a licence to drive. As well, it should be mandatory that to obtain a full licence learners should be required to undergo professional driver instruction. It would greatly improve the average skill level of licenced drivers. This is the law in quite a few countries.



I agree! Look at how many tests you have to go threw in order to operate pretty much anything, but yet to operate a 4000 pound machine capable of doing speeds in excess of 100mph all you have to do is stop at a stop sign, make aright turn and parallel park.

Carld
01-30-2010, 11:27 AM
So far I have just read this thread but now I have to say something.

The highway cop that rode his brakes until he smashed the car and killed everyone was NOT a very smart cop. In fact I consider him a menace to the public because HE, more than anyone, should have known to put it in neutral and from what I have read he had time to do that. He simply froze and did nothing as he headed for death AND described the event on the phone. How more stupid could you get? They are supposed to have training for emergency conditions and high speed driving, he must have failed the training or forgotten what he learned.

My take is he was not a very good driver or cop and it's a shame he killed others with his stupidity or ignorance or inability to react to a situation.

As to the general average driver on the road, they would probably do the same thing he did. I would bet more than 75% of the drivers would have done the same thing.

Now, to protect those dumb drivers the auto makers need to have a throttle kill like the cruise control has so when you step on the brake the engine goes to idle. Because most people are poor drivers in an emergency and they need some protection.

If you have ever been behind an accident in the making you will have seen all the drivers lock up the brakes and slide helter skelter into everything around them. Only the drivers that have raced or know how to handle a car under high speed cornering and other conditions will try to drive around or avoid the accident. The average driver will lock the brakes and plow into everything in sight.

Toyota's reaction to the throttle failure has been ridiculous. At first they denied it then they tried to cover it up, now they want to fix it.

I believe they shut the factories down to reduce inventory and that reason alone. I believe they have made another ridiculous decision to supply the factories before the dealers and it will cost their reputation dearly and take years to recover. They are already in financial trouble and this will increase it.

You can look for more issues like this as other makers use control by wire with the in car computer. Aircraft that have fly by wire have backup systems but cars don't and that will bite the auto makers in the butt.

aboard_epsilon
01-30-2010, 11:28 AM
need some translations

1.wot
2 mash

all the best.markj

vpt
01-30-2010, 11:34 AM
WOT = wide open throttle

Mash = slang for stomp with all your might on the pedal.

Evan
01-30-2010, 11:38 AM
WOT=Wide Open Throttle

Mash= press hard, like mashing potatos



If you have ever been behind an accident in the making you will have seen all the drivers lock up the brakes and slide helter skelter into everything around them. Only the drivers that have raced or know how to handle a car under high speed cornering and other conditions will try to drive around or avoid the accident. The average driver will lock the brakes and plow into everything in sight.


Totally agree with your comments. Unfortunately it happens here too. I was listening to the police one night and heard a cop in a high speed chase in town. He was following far too close and his voice had gone all squeaky. Then you hear a series of expletives. He came back on after a bit explaining he needed a tow truck. The driver he was chasing had gone off the road and took out a power pole. The power pole swung out on the suspending wires and came back in over the road and wiped off all the roof top equipment from the cruiser, then swung back again and planted itself through the rear window.

Idiot.

JanvanSaane
01-30-2010, 11:50 AM
Granted it has been a long time since I drove anything high performance and got to play with high speed manuvers, but that said unless technology has improved that much one thing is certain, as extreme heat is generated braking becomes less efficient. I would go as far as to say more training may not be a bad thing to retain a drivers license, but if everyone were required to have a supergas license we would need to have lots more public transportation. Besides, superfast reaction times are not a suitable sustitute for common sense. John

Willy
01-30-2010, 11:58 AM
I have often said that it should be a prerequisite to demonstrate some semblance of actual driving skill during the course of a driving exam, but it seems the only skill required is to cough up fifty bucks.
Every day I see fathers and mothers out "teaching" their children how to drive, I have to laugh as it is nothing more than the blind leading the blind.
Driving tests should have a non refundable $200 first time exam fee and if a repeat exam is required the price should go up to $1000! Let's put some incentive into demonstrating skill, obviously life and limb does not appear to be incentive enough.
I can imagine the public outcry if this was even suggested...what, we have to demonstrate skill?:eek:

The actual title for this thread should have been..."Driver reaction problem".
Unfortunately society once again has shown that it requires someone else to be responsible for it's actions. It is after all a God given birthright for all to drive.

MotorradMike
01-30-2010, 11:58 AM
need some translations

1.wot
2 mash

all the best.markj

1. wot = WFO
2. mash = To be overly friendly or familiar with a lady. Practitioners are often called 'mashers'.


Mike

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 12:20 PM
Another thing to consider is that a lot of newer cars are actually shift by wire too - no mechanical linkage between the shifter and the transmission. The CAN-bus network in a vehicle can actually experience the equivalent to a denial of service attack from a high priority device flooding the network with data and some other data inputs can be ignored as a result. Depending on how data priority was originally mapped out, you can get some unanticipated behavior in out of normal operation parameter events. I have been involved in a project for a while that involves integrating an electric motor controller into a CAN-bus equipped truck and this makes Fanuc ladder logic look like hello world programming. What this means is that depending on how the vehicle was originally setup you may or may not be able to shift into neutral if the throttle gets stuck. Time to start thinking about a "Three Laws of Robotics" for cars.

Carld
01-30-2010, 12:24 PM
So, your a driver trying to get away from a cop high speed chase and he gets close. Give him a brake job, he slams into you and you hit the throttle leaving him sliding all over the place and wishing he was home in a chair watching TV. The same thing happens on a race track and it works every time but usually leads to a fight in the pits, at least in the old days.

Don't you think the cops should know better than that?

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 12:25 PM
We can't have fly by wire in the UK.
The roads are too small and twisty and the wire keeps getting snagged on trees, traffic lights and telewag poles.
Worst case scenarios have been pulling Plod and / or the postman off his bike.

.

Carld
01-30-2010, 12:29 PM
John, they need to have the wires run up to a satellite so they don't get hung up on stuff on the ground.

saltmine
01-30-2010, 01:29 PM
I maintained and repaired a fleet of police and work vehicles for fifteen years.
During that time, I took part in and repaired the result of many, many cases of brake abuse.
Police cars generally have high performance brakes (unless they're civilian versions of the car). During high speed pursuits, we frequently had the brake pad material actually liquefy and run off of the brake pad backings. More often than not, the pads melt their adhesive and the friction material is "thrown", leaving only the pad's steel backing to contact the brake rotors.
This makes for an exciting ride, especially when you're doing 130mph or above. Trust me, an eight lane freeway looks like a narrow sidewalk at those speeds.
In most cars (yeah, police cruisers, too) under high speed braking the brake rotors actually do glow red, and emit sparks while braking (especially metallic pads) The more serious problem is the brake fluid boiling. This makes the brake pedal go to the floor (gas bubbles in the fluid), causing a significant effect on braking.
The Highway Patrol officer was driving a "high end" Toyota Lexus, which is probably rated at 300 horsepower or better. Taking in the size and "swept area" of the Lexus brakes, there is no way you could stop this car with only the brakes, with the engine pulling at full throttle. Which is exactly what happened.
In most high speed pursuits, the chase is usually terminated when the suspect loses control of the car, either through brake fade, or accelerated tire failure due to excessive heat (cornering). Once in a while, the engine or transmission will fail, or the suspect will cause significant damage to the vehicle where it can no longer continue. Thankfully, most suspects who try to outrun the police are not professional or skilled drivers, and they usually select (bad choice of words) a poor candidate for an escape vehicle.
Pursuits are usually short, and end abruptly.
Toyota still hasn't discovered the source of the W.O.T. throttle problem
As of late, the Toyota engineers are blaming the throttle pedal assembly and it's electronics, which, they claim, are "American made". I find this amusing, not because of the tragic outcome of the problem, but the fact that "American made" "Fly-by-wire" throttle assemblies have been around for years, and the "American manufacturers" aren't having throttle failure issues with their products.
The majority of American car "fly-by-wire" systems are "triple redundant" and automatically shut the car's engine down to an idle if even one of the three systems doesn't agree with the remaining two.


Ignition switches. American cars have an "OFF" position between "LOCKED STEERING WHEEL", and "RUN". So, turning the engine ignition "OFF" is not going to keep the driver from steering the car. This little feature was incorporated after several people turned their cars "OFF" to coast while driving and discovered they couldn't steer the car, back in the early '70's. Yes, turning off the ignition used to be a standard method used to save fuel, in the "olden days", especially when coasting downhill.

While it's true Toyota is one of the number one selling cars in the world, they sacrificed safety and quality control at times to remain "on top". Unfortunately, they're finding out that the old saw is quite true....."The Bigger They are, The Harder They Fall.." And the fall is a lot farther from the top.

A.K. Boomer
01-30-2010, 01:40 PM
Yes that is what I am saying. If you don't know how to handle simple situations in a car I really hope I never have to ride with you.



Anybody who is naive enough to believe that they would NEVER get into any trouble with a throttle that immediately goes wide open when their least expecting it has never parked a car in a congested parking lot with people all around or never even put a car up on ramps for that matter,

they qualify for not just being ignorant but arrogant --------- as some have found out the hard way personally that's a combo that I do not tolerate.:rolleyes:

saltmine
01-30-2010, 01:51 PM
I have to agree with you on that one, Boomer. It seems like hardly a day goes by that some little old lady or gentleman, in a shopping center, inadvertantly depresses the throttle instead of the brake, while parking. And usually some unsuspecting retail store gets a new "drive thru" window.

Evan
01-30-2010, 01:58 PM
The Highway Patrol officer was driving a "high end" Toyota Lexus, which is probably rated at 300 horsepower or better. Taking in the size and "swept area" of the Lexus brakes, there is no way you could stop this car with only the brakes, with the engine pulling at full throttle. Which is exactly what happened.


I will post it again for your benefit.

From Car and Driver magazine



Hit the Brakes

Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

fasto
01-30-2010, 01:58 PM
So what do you do? You get it over with on the first try and never lift, you will have almost full assist and almost a normal brake system, (due to the check valve and storage capacity of the reservoir)

That is the exact right idea.


The only modern vehicles that are immune to this are diesels as they have no throttle plate and produce no vacuum to begin with (not talking older mercede's) They run a motor driven mechanical vacuum pump that will supply the booster with its needed assist vacuum regardless of what happens when your pedal sticks...

This isn't completely true. My early 90's Volkswagen has Teves antilock, and it's electrohydraulic assist. Meaning, as long as the ignition is on you've got power assist. No vacuum required. It's not a diesel. Some Teves and Bosch antilock systems are made this way, even today.

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 01:59 PM
It often makes me wonder if we haven't reached too far, what was wrong with the old bowden cable ?

My wife drives an older model Peugeot 406 estate which is the last of the mechanically operated diesels so it can be repaired at home, next generation is plug and play electronic at the dealers meaning ££££

One day there is this clicking noise from under the dash, passengers side and by playing with the heater controls it can be made to alter so nothing life threatening.

Quick call to the mobile auto electrical and he pops round. yes he knows exactly what it is.
The internal vents in the heater are powered by the control levers which go to potentiometers, then to a black box and the flap is driven by a small stepper motor driving a gear and curved rack in plastic.

The gear / rack has shed a couple of teeth hence the clicking. Two choices, [a] airbags out, strip the heater, replace the rack and pinion and refit, about 8 to 9 hours labour.
[b] wedge the flap 1/2 open and disconnect motor.

I chose [b].

Years ago this job would have been bone by a bowden cable that lasted the life of the vehicle seeing as it has to transmit 0.00003467 oz of force [ approx ], now we have £28,675.37 worth of electronics [ approx ] to create a fault that is that well known it must be at the top of every auto electricians list.

Having had 19 years working on commercial vehicles and some right crap amongst that lot I have found that if a cable broke or the throttle linkage fell off it went to tick over, can't recall one WOT case.

The worst designed vehicle I ever had cause to rue the day I saw one was the Land Rover SII long wheel base diesel. UK right hand drive version, the throttle linkage, all rods, went from the pedal to the pump on the RHS of the engine.

Under load the engine would lean to the RHS because of torque reaction and slacken the throttle, the engine would slow, tip back upright and pull the throttle open, this then cause the engine to lean anticlock and let the throttle off again, the engine would slow etc, etc,

When towing broken down trucks this was really amazing to watch as it accelerated madly, well as madly as 2.67 BHP could achieve, then you saw the driver cringe as he knew he was going to get shunted forward by the truck behind just about the time the LR would take off again, only for it to be repeated.

It was common knowledge that long wheelbase diesel land rovers were calculated out in leaps per mile as opposed to miles per gallon.

Oh how we laughed in those heady days.................

.

Carld
01-30-2010, 02:04 PM
Evan, if that is TRUE then why did the cop standing on the brake fail to stop the car? Are you implying he was not on the brakes and just bull****ing us while going to his death?

While I respect your info on most posts I think you are way off here. It is a KNOWN from his cell phone call that HE WAS HARD ON THE BRAKES AND COULD NOT STOP THE CAR as well as inspection of the braks after the accident. Just what don't you believe about what he said?

Personally I think he was not a good driver but I do believe he was trying to stop at WOT and froze on the wheel and died for his stupidity.

Evan
01-30-2010, 02:07 PM
That reminds me of the Sunbeam Tiger I drove for a while back then. 289 cubic inch Ford V8 and stock rear suspension designed for the 12 hp water pump engine. If you floored it off the line the rear axle would wind up like a clock spring and the car would bunny hop about 2 feet at a time until you took pity on it and yourself leaving a pair of black patches down the road like toilet paper perforations.


Evan, if that is TRUE then why did the cop standing on the brake fail to stop the car?

No way of knowing but my best guess is that he didn't stand on the brake to start with. He probably tried to use the brake as a throttle to drive to an exit or whatever instead of simply bringing the vehicle to a halt as soon as possible.

saltmine
01-30-2010, 02:23 PM
Comparing a Toyota Lexus brakes to a Ford Taurus is almost laughable.
We had a whole bunch of Ford's Taurus in the fleet, and one of the most dependable things about them was metal-to-metal rotors every 30,000 miles.
With the anemic V-6 engine Ford swiped from the Germans, the typical Taurus would most certainly stop, not well, but it would stop. But, with the sorry little V-6 running at full song, dragging one's feet was almost enough to stop one in a respectable distance.

The police report on the Highway Patrolman's crash did state that the brakes on the Toyota Lexus were all but completely burned up as a result of the officer trying to stop the car. And, on an ironic note, no floormat was found in the car's passenger compartment. (I suppose, in an effort to stop the car, he tossed the offending floormat out the window)

By saying that the service brakes on a Lexus could easily stop a full throttle car, does this mean the officer in the accident was committing suicide? Or was he a poor quality driver? I think not.

This was simply an automobile manufacturer "getting too big for their britches", and eventually, getting several people killed.

Back in the '70's Ford engineers working on the famous "Pinto Exploding Gas Tank" problem used to call this type of response "Tombstone Engineering".

Ford management, at the time, decided it was cheaper to let a few people get burned alive, and sue the Corporation, than it was to correct the problem.

The NTSHA had other opinions.

Evan
01-30-2010, 02:28 PM
By saying that the service brakes on a Lexus could easily stop a full throttle car, does this mean the officer in the accident was committing suicide? Or was he a poor quality driver? I think not.


It means that he could have stopped the car since testing shows that it will stop easily from whatever speed the problem would have occured at, not likely more than 70 mph. The problem is clearly driver error.

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 02:36 PM
It means that he could have stopped the car since testing shows that it will stop easily from whatever speed the problem would have occured at, not likely more than 70 mph. The problem is clearly driver error.

So why did they have to go through all the rigmarole of an autopsy, examination of the wreck and no doubt getting in touch with all various agencies and manufacturers when they could have asked you who is sitting 7,000 miles away and save all the hassle and grief.

Obviously these people, the Australians and the eagles have a lot to learn.

Mike Burdick
01-30-2010, 02:47 PM
This reminds me of a past thread where some guy claims how smart he is and how he can react correctly in every situation and then proceeds to cut the cord off of a portable saw.

It's easy to say what to do after the fact but in a panic situation sometimes one doesn't perform so well!
.

ckelloug
01-30-2010, 03:16 PM
The fact that the Toyota throttle can stick wide open is just scary. The question is why and perhaps they will figure it out. The basic way of making a system safe is to minimize the chance of failure in the components and provide redundancies as JTiers said. The driver is the ultimate redundant safety mechanism in the Car system.

Prudent engineering says that the WOT issue needs to be fixed because it isn't permissible to intentionally let the safety system (driver) take care of the failure. It doesn't matter how good or bad the driver is, dropping this problem on the driver is unacceptable engineering.

The real problem though is that people are taught how to drive but they are not "trained". When I was being taught to fly, my instructor taught me that the most critical thing was to "recognize situations and execute a trained response." She trained me to recognize situations and respond correctly over and over.

When you're in a plane and a wing stall happens, you have a second or so to respond before the situation will get out of hand. Wait too long and you could find yourself in a spin. Go too far in the spin, and you'll probably want to be cremated at your funeral. As a result of the danger, you are forced into stall situations in training and forced to push the control yoke forward to stop the stall. The training on stalls continues until you reflexively and instinctively do the correct recovery action each time. You also train constantly for what to do if you lose your engine.

The training for stalls is important because in a stall, you are applying control input to go up but you are instead going down rapidly. The response is of course control input to go down which makes you lose altitude even faster. Training is necessary because in a panic situation, people tend to assume that controls do what they are accustomed to rather than the opposite nature of stall recovery.

A lot of posters have said that they would reason through the WOT failure and come to the correct conclusion and implement it. Unfortunately, it's well known in aviation that humans are horrible at reasoning in time critical situations. That's why pilots are taught by repetition an instinctive response to dangerous situations. In planes, dangerous situations need to be dealt with quickly and that doesn't allow a lot of time for deliberate thinking.

Since few drivers have been trained in appropriate responses for either road hazards or system failures, it is a crapshoot whether any individual would do the correct thing in the situation even if he/she could post here all day about the correct response outside the situation. In that drivers have no training to fall back on and must rely on reasoning in a difficult situation, its critical that Toyota fix the problem technically. It is also untrue that the people who have been killed by this issue were fools.

Willy
01-30-2010, 03:25 PM
It means that he could have stopped the car since testing shows that it will stop easily from whatever speed the problem would have occured at, not likely more than 70 mph. The problem is clearly driver error.

Evan does my post #90 of this thread mean that somehow Car&Drivers results are more credible than those of Consumer's Reports?
If so please explain to us why we should take C/D for gospel and disregard C/R.

I'll post the part of the C/R article again in case you missed it.



With a large test track and a fleet of vehicles at their disposal, the magazine's engineers initially focused on the "just step hard on the brakes" method of bringing the car to a halt. Interestingly enough, CR tested a Mercedes-Benz E350 and a Volkswagen Jetta Wagon – both fitted with drive-by-wire "smart throttles" that are designed to ignore conflicting inputs (throttle and brake at the same time). CR reports that these cars simply shut down to idle and came safety to a stop. The story was a bit different with a Toyota Venza and Chevrolet HHR, however. When the brakes on those vehicles were firmly applied at 20 mph, their transmissions downshifted to fight the deceleration. The vehicles were both eventually brought to a stop after the first test. However, when the test was repeated at 60 mph on brakes that had been cooled since the earlier run, both vehicles quickly suffered fade from their overheated brakes and were unable to come to a complete stop.

The Artful Bodger
01-30-2010, 03:49 PM
The idea of throwing a car into reverse at WOT is...well you guess
Most are here because we appreciate machinery.


Like I said, it has happened twice accidently in my vehicle and each time there was no apparent damage. In one case the driver thought he was driving a four speed and pushed the handle forward to select 3rd for overtaking while pressing the accelerator.

A busted transmission is a small price to pay for a runaway vehicle....

saltmine
01-30-2010, 04:29 PM
Oooh, Been there, Done that, Artful Bodger.

Once, after spending over an hour on Willow Springs Raceway, abusing an elderly TR-4, a friend asked me to take a brief "road test" in his T-bird to get my opinion on a "funny noise" it was making.

We drove out of the parking lot, and pulled onto the highway, I had the T-bird's transmission in "LOW" range. As I accelerated, I automatically depressed the left side of the brake pedal (where the clutch "usually" is) and jammed the automatic shifter into "PARK". As the car slid to a stop, rear wheels locked.

Awkward moment....

I quickly apologized to the owner, for my stupidity.

Funny thing, though. The "funny noise" never re-occurred....

topct
01-30-2010, 04:35 PM
This thing is going to cost Toyota a lot of money.

What I find disturbing is the fact that the situation was being reported. I am sure of that. And it seems that no one, nowhere, in a position of monitoring such complaints passed the word forward, or that if it was, it seems to have been ignored.

Management strikes again.

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 05:07 PM
You know better than that Doc. It means they probably stood on it 'til it hit 70, then stood on the brakes while still standing on the throttle.

Sigh.

Please show me were I said "... then lifted their foot off the accellerator in order to stand on the brake".

I didn't. You simply assumed it was said because you thought, incorrectly, that I was trying to discredit the C/D test.


About semi-metallic brake pads: They were developed for the express purpose of eliminating brake fade.


You should know better than that Evan. No pad or braking system can eliminate brake fade- semimetallic pads help reduce brake fade, but the composition of the pads are not the sole cause of fade. Even F1 racing high-dollar carbon-carbon systems will fade.

Semimetallics are a compromise; they grip better at street speeds than full-metallics, but not as good as conventional fiber pads. They last longer than fiber, but not as long as metallics- but then, they don't wear the rotor as badly as metallics either. They resist fading far better than fiber, but not as well as metallic. And so on.

While I wasn't aware of the above quoted Consumer Reports test, I will note that it's somewhat more in line with my experience. The C/D test was ideal conditions- a single sustained press-to-stop. Had the driver let up, either to 'pump' the brakes or as the driver realizes he or she is about to come to a stop at a poor location, such as on a bridge or in an intersection, I'd wager the outcome would have been far different.

Clearly there is some differing factor, since CR and C/D came up with such markedly different results.

Doc.

saltmine
01-30-2010, 05:23 PM
Semi-metallic brake pads are a manufacturer's attempt to recover braking force lost when the NTSHA and the Federal Government banned asbestos in all brakes and friction materials. The "replacement" pad material is mostly chopped Fiberglas, laced with graphite. One thing semi-metallic pad material does do quite well, is destroy brake rotors. We had metallic brake materials back in the "olden days" but braking was marginal bordering on non-existent when cold, and screeching and grinding noises were normal once warmed up.
The full metallic material also wore about as quickly as the rotors and drums wore, requiring both pad and rotor(or drum) replacement whenever brakes were done.

Here's what Toyota is offering as an explanation of the "sticking throttle" problem:
"The automaker blamed the problem on condensation in the pedal assembly, which includes the pedal, a curved arm that goes into the engine compartment, and springs that send the pedal back to its resting position when the driver eases up on the gas.

The condensation creates friction that can cause a delayed return of the pedal or, in rare cases, sticking."

I'm not sure, but as a retired automobile Mechanic, this explanation sounds like a complete load of horse s**t.

BTW, Topct, news sources claim this recall and halt in sales is costing Toyota $1 Billion dollars a day.

Evan
01-30-2010, 05:27 PM
This reminds me of a past thread where some guy claims how smart he is and how he can react correctly in every situation and then proceeds to cut the cord off of a portable saw.



The saw in question and a number of other similar saws have all been recalled because the guard fails to close. The main symptom of the defect is the cord is cut off.


Please show me were I said "... then lifted their foot off the accellerator in order to stand on the brake".

I didn't. You simply assumed it was said because you thought, incorrectly, that I was trying to discredit the C/D test.



That is exactly what I thought since you have a vested interest in doing just that. I still think that. Your wording was carefully selected to give that impression.


The vehicles were both eventually brought to a stop after the first test. However, when the test was repeated at 60 mph on brakes that had been cooled since the earlier run, both vehicles quickly suffered fade from their overheated brakes and were unable to come to a complete stop.


That report is self contradictory. Were the brakes cooled or were they still overheated? Consumer Reports has a long standing history of emphasizing negatives beyond the reality of the situation. The report of the Car and Driver tests IS more credible because of the detail given. There is a rather large discrepancy between the two reports which makes it probable that the testing protocol was somehow different with the CR report.



So why did they have to go through all the rigmarole of an autopsy, examination of the wreck and no doubt getting in touch with all various agencies and manufacturers when they could have asked you who is sitting 7,000 miles away and save all the hassle and grief.



Because they would like to know why he didn't just turn off the ignition. I already wrote that there is no way to know for sure. However it is apparent that you are not reading the posts.

Weston Bye
01-30-2010, 05:39 PM
Part of the design process in the auto industry as well as many others involves FMEA - Failure Mode Effects Analysis. Such excersizes are conducted for systems, subsystems, assemblies, and in some cases, individual components or materials.

The FMEA is designed to cause the engineering "team" to think up anything and everything that could go wrong with the product, what the effect of the failure could be, estimate the likelyhood and take action to eliminate or mitigate the failure.

I routinely do PFMEAs for production, and occasionally am involved in DFMEAs for product design. I can tell you that there are a whole lot of engineers and managers loosing sleep now reviewing paperwork, and hoping that the document with the omission didn't have their name on it.

Toyota is trying to roll the problem downhill to the part supplier, CTS, the maker of the pedal assembly. The supplier claims that the product is made to Toyota specifications. I don't think Toyota "owns" the design, as Ford is reported to use the pedal assembly in one of its vehicles in the far east.

saltmine
01-30-2010, 05:42 PM
9 out of 10 people driving the Lexus in question don't know that holding the "START" button down for five seconds will shut the car down.

The 2009 Toyota Lexus has a "key-less entry"(with keypad) and in place of an ignition switch, it has a rather large, button labelled "START"

A dangerous set of circumstances building up when you take note of the fact that fewer than 50% of new car owners ever read the "Owners Manual".

My sister-in-law purchased a Chevy Avalanche, loaded, in 2003. And refused to drive it until she had read the "Owners manual". She started driving it a week later.....(the Owners Manual on this Avalanche is about the size of a Chicago phone book.) but not everybody will "take the time"

The Highway Patrolman was having his Toyota SUV serviced, at the time, and was given a brand new Lexus to drive as a "loan car"

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 06:08 PM
That is exactly what I thought since you have a vested interest in doing just that. I still think that. Your wording was carefully selected to give that impression.


That report is self contradictory. Were the brakes cooled or were they still overheated? Consumer Reports has a long standing history of emphasizing negatives beyond the reality of the situation. The report of the Car and Driver tests IS more credible because of the detail given. There is a rather large discrepancy between the two reports which makes it probable that the testing protocol was somehow different with the CR report.

-Kettle, thy name is Black.

Let's reparse the CR blurb: "We tried it again at a higher speed, after giving the car's brakes time to cool off."

Seems clear to me, but then, I'm not here to grind my ego-axe. :D

Doc.

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 06:11 PM
9 out of 10 people driving the Lexus in question don't know that holding the "START" button down for five seconds will shut the car down.

-While I admit I've never driven a car with the modern "start button" arrangements, it was my impression of them that a press of the button starts it, and a press-and-short-hold was how you stopped it.

If that's true, then one would assume that anyone who had driven the car successfully at least once prior- let alone 90% of owners- would know how to shut the car off.

Doc.

saltmine
01-30-2010, 06:17 PM
Apparently not, Doc. And what makes it even worse is the fact that the guy driving was an experienced Highway Patrol officer...A person who spends most of his eight-hour-day driving a car, for a living.


I know, if it was a machinist driving, he'd be looking for the "STOP" button.

plastikosmd
01-30-2010, 06:26 PM
As far as the 'stop button' in a panic situation, there could easily be confusion. With our car, sure hit it once to start..once to stop, while in park. You do not 'hold' the stop/start button to shut it off. If driving....stuck accel, you panic, hit it once to stop and it doesn't, I imagine many would probably hit it multiple other times instead of going of holding it down, then go onto whatever option 2 is before they crash. In shorter terms, holding the stop/start is not part of the normal daily routine and I agree many would not know how to shut the car down when moving in this situation.

saltmine
01-30-2010, 06:33 PM
Taking into account some of the "dimmer bulbs on the Christmas Tree",
I would imagine there are a whole bunch of evolutionary throwbacks out there who would have trouble turning off a car with a conventional key ignition.


Look where I live. Not the "MENSA" capitol of the world.

danlb
01-30-2010, 06:45 PM
Since just about any mechanical system can fail, I find this one not too surprising.

When I first heard of the problem and the probable cause (interference from the floor mat) it seemed quite reasonable. Most of us will not look for a more complex cause once we identify what appears to be the root cause.

I own two Toyotas, so I may be a bit biased.

I would never have thought of a 'stiction' problem when warn parts became humid inside the interior of a car. I'd have looked for mechanical binding, loose linkages or even software problems.

I've heard that the drive by wire systems have safeguards to protect from foreseeable errors. For instance, it will not go from 1/2 throttle to full throttle unless the sensor shows it went through the whole range.

On the topic of other failures, I've seen a few. A throttle plate stuck open when the air cleaner nut was over tightened, deforming the carb throat. Busted linkage on another jammed it at high idle. A frayed throttle cable on a third left the engine racing till I killed it.

In order to make it 100% failsafe, the interlocks would have to first accurately detect the problem, then kill two or more systems (fuel, spark and ???) and do it in a way that will not endanger the car. It's not great to have your engine cutout while passing on a two lane road just because you managed to tap the brake pedal while flooring it.

I AM encouraged by the fact that Toyota is investigating further and found a second POSSIBLE cause of the problem. That's a good thing.

It's important to note that the problem in the first post will happen at any speed, not just WOT. If the throttle sticks it should do it no matter how fast you are going. If this was widespread, there would be thousands of reports of that by now. Some of the recalled cars are several years old.

Dan

MrSleepy
01-30-2010, 06:45 PM
"Hold the Start button for 5 secs"
"Press the start button to stop it"...

ATX psu running windows...does bill gates know they've copied him?...:)

If the guy killed had been a mexican immo and not a LEO...nobody would have cared and toyota would be non the worser..

Rob

Too_Many_Tools
01-30-2010, 06:50 PM
This thing is going to cost Toyota a lot of money.

What I find disturbing is the fact that the situation was being reported. I am sure of that. And it seems that no one, nowhere, in a position of monitoring such complaints passed the word forward, or that if it was, it seems to have been ignored.

Management strikes again.

It was ignored.

You are correct...I have seen it happen many, many times.

And while engineering knows and wants to do the fix, management will not allow them.

Meanwhile people die.

TMT

Willy
01-30-2010, 06:55 PM
As saltmine mentioned earlier..."read the manual".
There appears to be no standard procedure among auto makers for emergency engine shut down procedures while actually driving.

Have a look at this little video in it's entirety to fully understand the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u53oRzkRIbY

Evan, given the fact that many manufacturers are implementing the brake override feature, I would suggest that it is perhaps Car and Driver's procedures that may be lacking in this case and not those of Consumers Reports. Unless of course you and C/D are on to something that the rest of the industry is oblivious to.

ligito
01-30-2010, 06:58 PM
Cntrl/ Alt/ Delete?

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 07:02 PM
Probably takes 2 minutes to shut the engine down whilst it installs the latest updates.

.

vpt
01-30-2010, 07:06 PM
Buy american, problem solved!

john hobdeclipe
01-30-2010, 07:07 PM
If you are driving a manual transmission, and switch the engine off, the car's momentum will drive the engine against it's compression and still keep the power steering pump turning, as well as supplying sufficient vacuum to at least help with the brakes.

If you are driving an automatic, would it not also do the same thing? Keep the engine turning enough to provide steering control?

Only after the car had slowed to about 15-20 mph or so would you really lose steering boost.

Right?

JanvanSaane
01-30-2010, 07:07 PM
ATX psu running windows...does bill gates know they've copied him?...


Can't be windows, The car would crash a couple times a week for no reason. Then you would need to get out and boot it, 30 seconds later it may go again but half the instrumentation wouldn't work. Once every 6 months "FATAL ERROR" would come up, the windshield would turn blue and it would not start again till you replaced everything except the radiator cap. John

Evan
01-30-2010, 07:12 PM
Seems clear to me, but then, I'm not here to grind my ego-axe.


That is the funniest thing I have heard all day, especially from you.


The recommendation of the manufacturer is to brake the vehicle to a stop. Perhapes Car and Driver is really on to something? I don't think they faked the results. There is a select group of people here that just hate it when their pet theories turn out to be wrong. Too bad, so sad.

I posted my original post not based on my estimation of the situation but based on many previous tests that were done because of the Audi unintentional acceleration problem years ago. In all cases the problems were easily dealt with by braking to a halt. It really is that simple and red herrings about multiple stops and brake fade are irrelevant. Only one stop need be made and from a relatively low speed that presents no problem at all stopping the vehicle. Those are the facts.

The rest is BS.

vpt
01-30-2010, 07:24 PM
I wounder if a golden eagle could carry a toyota away?

JanvanSaane
01-30-2010, 07:24 PM
Evan, This is a problem that is nothing new, I am sure the car could of been brought to a complete stop right at first, but human nature would be to try an slow it down first overheating the brakes, then its too late. Back in school in drivers ed we covered this, a lady had the throttle stick and she managed to get the car to slow down enough to get the passengers out, but she ended up crashing, the drivers ed teacher said "why not turn off the key once she had slowed it down?" Sometimes people panic and don't quite know what to do. It just seems odd a trained professional would be in this situation. John

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 07:32 PM
The rest is BS.

And this has gotta be true as we are dealing with an Ex - Pert here.

.

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 07:33 PM
I wounder if a golden eagle could carry a toyota away?

Not with red dust in it's eyes and a saw cable wound round it's neck................................

.

John Stevenson
01-30-2010, 07:34 PM
Buy american, problem solved!

Like a Pinto ?

.

MotorradMike
01-30-2010, 07:38 PM
Buy american, problem solved!

Mitutoyo, Starrett. Not American ...

Audi, BMW, Mercedes. Not American ...

Leica, Pentax, Nikon. Not American ...

South Bend, Fluke, Agilent, OK


GM, Ford, Chrysler,
Gimme a break,
problem not solved.


Mike

Black_Moons
01-30-2010, 07:38 PM
Heh, iv had a cable/rod throttle linkage stick.. in a car that had been siting a very long time, thankfuly it still in the driveway, and did'nt go WOT just a medium hrottle (beginner driver so I hit it wayy harder then I should of in a driveway), so I just turned it off and stuck it in park.. still scared the hell outta me though.

I immedately went out and FIXED THE PROBLEM.. with excessive amounts of oil over all the linkages/rods, and excessive 'excercise' of the throttle linkage to work the oil in.

Not really sure where im going with this, other then even older throttle linkages can fail stuck open. (though i'll admit that putting my foot under the gas pedal could still pull the trottle back).. and that even a beginner driver could tell that was too dangerious to leave for one second longer before fixing.. but at least with linkages a beginner driver could figure out how to maintain such a system. (Clean, oil, excercise, and insure nothing looks like its gonna fall apart soon)

the new 'brake override' system sounds like a GOOD idea to me. Would help people who 'ride' the brake to learn not to do it too.. hmm... Or maybe make them start doing it more since it would idle the engine for them..... kinda hard to tell.

Weston Bye
01-30-2010, 07:42 PM
Like a Pinto ?

.

Like a Corvair? Sticky throttle - personal experience. I just put it out of gear and shut the engine off. Survived.

vpt
01-30-2010, 07:46 PM
Mitutoyo, Starrett. Not American ...

Audi, BMW, Mercedes. Not American ...

Leica, Pentax, Nikon. Not American ...

South Bend, Fluke, Agilent, OK


GM, Ford, Chrysler,
Gimme a break,
problem not solved.


Mike


1975 and older american cars and trucks, OK

japcas
01-30-2010, 07:53 PM
I've been reading in and out of this whole thread. I've not read everything because it's getting a little out of hand. But I've got a 2009 corolla and one thing that was mentioned was that the car would have power steering boost down to about 15 mph. My car has electric steering and I've never tried turning the car off and coasting to see if it will still work, but I have roll started the car as it has a manual trans and the steering doesn't kick in until after the car started. I'm not sure if it kicks in at a certain speed or if the motor has to run for it to work but I'll tell you this, the steering is extremely stiff without the assist. And I'm 6 foot 3 and weigh in at 265 pounds.

MotorradMike
01-30-2010, 08:00 PM
Heh, iv had a cable/rod throttle linkage stick..
Not really sure where im going with this, other then even older throttle linkages can fail stuck open.

Happened to me once too. I remember remarking to my wife that the throttle was stuck, switching off the key and pulling over. (1987 Golf, throttle body needle bearing was rusted stuck, I cleaned it up and no trouble for 10 more years.)



the new 'brake override' system sounds like a GOOD idea to me.

Yes, me too. If there is simultaneous throttle AND brake input then the computer should decide 'Idle throttle'. I don't know why Toyota decided against this but neither do you guys. Today they are 'scum of the Earth' but for decades, they've been 'Top of the heap'. It's a tough position to hold.

Buy stock boys.
It's low right now.


Mike

jdunmyer
01-30-2010, 08:01 PM
I was glad that someone pointed out that you don't simply "turn off the key" on a Lexus, the car in question with that fatal crash. That had been bothering me for some time.

Now, how's about the transmission? Can you actually "shift it to neutral" by moving a lever that mechanically puts the servo valves in "Neutral", or is that electronic also?

Stopping a car w/o power assist: My 1983 VW Rabbit Diesel had the vacuum pump fail, and the car was nearly impossible to stop w/o the boost.

Haven't tried steering a car that has power steering with the engine off lately, but the couple of times I have, it was VERY difficult.

Seems like the fly-by-wire cars should put the engine at idle if the brake is depressed for more than a couple of seconds. That's simple software.

danlb
01-30-2010, 08:20 PM
The full hybrids (the ones that will travel with the engine stopped) have steering and braking that are not dependent on the engine. I'm surprised that the electric steering on the 2009 Corolla was not active till the engine started. It should be similar to the Prius design, where the steering is active as soon as the car is put in "run" mode (like turning the key).

If loss of power steering / brakes were really that bad, there should be an uproar over the fact that every car on the road has a power steering/brake system will become difficult to use when it is broken. No one is instigating a recall, so the issue is probably not that serious.

Dan

MotorradMike
01-30-2010, 08:21 PM
I've been reading in and out of this whole thread. I've not read everything because it's getting a little out of hand. But I've got a 2009 corolla and one thing that was mentioned was that the car would have power steering boost down to about 15 mph. My car has electric steering and I've never tried turning the car off and coasting to see if it will still work, but I have roll started the car as it has a manual trans and the steering doesn't kick in until after the car started. I'm not sure if it kicks in at a certain speed or if the motor has to run for it to work but I'll tell you this, the steering is extremely stiff without the assist. And I'm 6 foot 3 and weigh in at 265 pounds.

Hmmmm

Wife's car is 2009 Corolla (Standard trans). Power steering is electric and kicks in with ignition ON. I tried it with engine off because I wanted to know.

Since we're sharing, I'm 5 foot 10 and you got 100 pounds on me bro. Not pickin' a fight.


Mike

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 08:30 PM
That is the funniest thing I have heard all day, especially from you.

-I'm sure it is, since we're all rather well aquainted with your sense of humor- so subtle it is, that it takes a cave full of neutrino detectors and a SETI@Home distributed-analysis array to sift the one "wow!" moment out of the years of background noise, only to have that moment neither proven nor repeated despite continued looking. :D

I imagine you get a good laugh about as often as Michael Moore plays center for the Lakers. :D


It really is that simple and red herrings about multiple stops and brake fade are irrelevant.

-Except they're not. The primary data point is the fatality itself. The brakes were "burned out"- what burned them out if not for the engine's power?

Yes, we can argue all day long about what the driver should have done- not the least of which was pop the thing into neutral. But the fact of the case is, through whatever means, the engine overpowered the brakes, which faded, and were no longer able to stop or, apparently, even appreciably slow the car.

The secondary data point is the Consumer Reports finding- and pointedly, in a case where one internet anecdote from a reasonably trustworthy source contradicts another internet anecdote from a reasonably trustworthy source, I find it interesting and somewhat hypocritical of you to try to discredit the one that doesn't support your argument.

While neither source is wrong, and I doubt either source is lying or has an axe to grind, both, apparently, did only the most basic testing- barring data that neither article mentions, it appears that both simply tried each car once, at a couple of different speeds, simply pressing the pedal until the car stops. No pumping, no having to dodge traffic, no maneuvering, etc.

In other words, both tests assumed essentially ideal conditions- but it's clear that at some point, Officer Saylor's engine finally overwhelmed the brakes. Meaning the conditions were not ideal, the brakes were not in as good a condition as the C/D test cars, or some other factor- almost certainly hampered even further by panic and unfamiliarity with the car.


Only one stop need be made and from a relatively low speed that presents no problem at all stopping the vehicle. Those are the facts.

-Except they aren't. You're assuming a single stop, the driver keeps his head, the brakes are in good tune, and he doesn't have to dodge traffic or maneuver. Ideal conditions rather than real-world conditions.

When my Dart went WOT, assuming it had an automatic instead of a manual, and assuming I didn't have the presence of mind to slip it into neutral, I'd have spun out in the middle of morning rush-hour traffic (okay, small-town 'rush' hour, but still in the middle of traffic) with the front brakes locked and the rear tires still trying to spin. Basically I'd have started spinning donuts and would have been lucky had I only hit four or five people.

Rain. Snow. Tired from a long day on the job. Brakes with 50,000 miles on 'em. You name it.

Saying "all you need to do is press on the brake 'til you're stopped" and/or "all brakes are strong enough to stop the car under any conditions" is simplistic, ignorant and clearly wrong.

Doc.

J Tiers
01-30-2010, 08:36 PM
Apparently the smug ones here, VPT and Evan, still don't know that the driver of the lexus was not informed of how to stop the engine in an emergency.

Clearly the procedure to use when parking was not the same as the one when not in park.

VPT and Evan, with their unruffled and Spock-like calm would naturally have instantly deduced that to stop it you simply hold the START button down longer..... Others probably would not, because if you hold the button a few milliseconds short of the full time, it won't work. Five seconds is a long time when you are basically traveling as fast as the vehicle will go.

I've driven well over 100MPH on the interstate highway system, and it is really not designed for that. The width of the road isn't the issue, it's the bumps and the curves. The ones you don't even notice at 65. Suddenly the road is a lot different than you thought.
*
*
As for turning off the engine in a manual tranny vehicle, and getting continuing steering power, well, try it. You slow down in a hurry. Might not make it to the side unless there is no traffic.
*
*
Of course the matter DOES NOT COME UP, because AT SPEED the steering WORKS FINE with NO assist. It is when you get to a slower speed that the problem occurs.
*
*
And, as for one application of the brakes..... In a perfect world, ideal conditions, sure. In traffic, no freaking way.... How could you even CONSIDER that? Unless you are already in the right lane, you will probably have to let up to move over and get on teh shoulder.

I already pointed out the utter stupidity of ONE brake application, screeching to a halt in a traffic lane on the highway..... even if there is no fuel tanker behind you there is a good chance you won't survive. You just have several choices as to how you will die, or what will be left if you survive, but it isn't actually your choice to make, others will do that for you.
*
*
Why anyone would require a full-out pro race driver's course to get a licence is beyond me. It's such ridiculous overkill, no matter how many "other countries" do it. To begin with, it is a State matter, NOT a Federal one. No interstate commerce involved, so "this country" can't directly do it, the States all have to.

Especially when the REAL problem is that the vehicle has a problem that the makers CHOSE to NOT protect against. THAT is a matter that the Federal government can affect, only they have not.



Leica, Pentax, Nikon. Not American ...

South Bend, Fluke, Agilent, OK


Uh...... Southbend, Fluke, Agilent... = ALL CHINESE NOW

deeman
01-30-2010, 09:08 PM
Like I said, it has happened twice accidently in my vehicle and each time there was no apparent damage. In one case the driver thought he was driving a four speed and pushed the handle forward to select 3rd for overtaking while pressing the accelerator.

A busted transmission is a small price to pay for a runaway vehicle....


I don`t know what kind of screwed up gizmo you got for a shifter Bodger but trying to push a handle forward to get a lower gear isn`t like anything i ever seen before...and neither is going to another gear with an automatic shifter and not having the shifter lock before it can go into reverse simply by pushing on it.The lock is designed to keep it from going into reverse while shifting in the forward gears.

MickeyD
01-30-2010, 09:09 PM
-
Yes, we can argue all day long about what the driver should have done- not the least of which was pop the thing into neutral. But the fact of the case is, through whatever means, the engine overpowered the brakes, which faded, and were no longer able to stop or, apparently, even appreciably slow the car.

Doc.

Like I previously mentioned, if the engine is overwhelming the data bus with priority traffic, the signal to shift into neutral might be ignored.

Doc Nickel
01-30-2010, 09:30 PM
Like I previously mentioned, if the engine is overwhelming the data bus with priority traffic, the signal to shift into neutral might be ignored.

-Some of the news articles state or imply that the "sport" shift gate on the car made it difficult to shift into neutral, especially if you're unfamiliar with the car. I'm assuming it's something to keep wannabe-Enzios from slapping it into neutral in a corner.

Doc.

ckelloug
01-30-2010, 11:02 PM
MickeyD,

Are the automotive folks trying to use CAN bus for critical functions now? Last time I knew anything about this, it was designed for the requirements of things like lights and accessories, not control inputs. I could be remembering wrong but I don't think it is designed as a hard realtime system suitable for driver controls.

--Cameron

Evan
01-30-2010, 11:21 PM
There are some interesting facts that relate to the story if you do some digging. It has been determined that the problem was caused by the floor mat catching the pedal. The floor mat in question was recalled in 2007 by Lexus for that particular model, the ES350.

Further, the problem was already known to the dealer.

Also, the driver was never talking on the cell phone. Any reports of how the brakes were or were not working is speculation not reported by the driver himself.


SAN DIEGO -- An East County auto dealership may not have responded to a previous complaint about a vehicle that crashed and killed four family members, according to a San Diego County Sheriff's Department report obtained by 10News' media partner, The San Diego Union-Tribune.

According to the report, a man identified as 61-year-old Frank Bernard rented the 2009 Lexus ES 350 and complained to Bob Baker Lexus in El Cajon that the driver's side floor mat was interfering with the gas pedal and caused the car to suddenly accelerate.

However, the report stated the complaint was taken by a receptionist, and it is unclear if further action was taken after the complaint was received. In the report, Bernard told authorities the receptionist may not have understood his complaint.

The receptionist initially told authorities she did not remember Bernard's complaint, but two weeks later said she did recall taking Bernard's complaint to a detail specialist. The detail specialist told authorities he was not told about any problems with the vehicle, the Union-Tribune learned.

On Aug. 28, three days after Bernard's complaint, California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor was driving the Lexus, with his wife Cleofe, their 13-year-old daughter Mahala and Saylor's brother-in-law Chris Lastrella. According to the sheriff's report, Lastrella called 911 and said the car's gas pedal became stuck and the brakes were not functioning properly. Witnesses told authorities the car was travelling on State Route 125 at a high rate of speed.

Authorities said the Lexus reached the intersection of SR-125 and Mission Gorge Road where it struck a Ford Explorer, careened off the road and flew 150 feet before it landed in the San Diego river basin and burst into flames.

The sheriff's report said investigators found the Lexus' acceleration was triggered when the vehicle's gas pedal became trapped by the floor mat. According to the report, the size of the mat was larger than the correct mat and did not leave enough space between the gas pedal and the floor board. And the plastic retaining clips were not secured allowing the mat to move forward.

http://www.10news.com/news/21869331/detail.html




The hiway itself is a death trap. There have been 44 major accidents at the same intersection in the last 48 months. There is an exit not far from the intersection that would have served well as an escape. The exit is a very mild curve that ends in a grassy field that is graded and banked with a central depressed area that then comes up to a high sloped berm with a perhaps 30 degree slope.

Unforturnately there is only a single warning sign less than a 1000 yards before the 4 lane hiway abruptly ends in a tee intersection. That sign is after the exit.

Arcane
01-30-2010, 11:30 PM
Also, the driver was never talking on the cell phone.

Not true. He made a 911 call just seconds before he crashed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHGSWs4uJzY&NR=1

Evan
01-30-2010, 11:35 PM
According to the report the call was made by his brother in law from the back seat.


On Aug. 28 at about 6:30 p.m., Saylor's brother-in-law, 38-year-old Chris Lastrella, made a 911 from the back seat of the sedan to report that its accelerator was stuck, sending it hurtling down the freeway at about 120 mph.

http://www.10news.com/news/21151361/detail.html

mooney1el
01-30-2010, 11:37 PM
I have read that it was actually a back seat passenger who made the call.

oops, Evan beat my one finger typing

Evan
01-30-2010, 11:44 PM
The accident should never have happened. The floor mat had been recalled 2 years ago and recent problems with it had been reported by a customer. Regardless of the driver's skill or lack of it the dealership deserves the blame since it is the dealership that was negligent in not correcting the problem as instructed.

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 12:11 AM
I don`t know what kind of screwed up gizmo you got for a shifter Bodger but trying to push a handle forward to get a lower gear isn`t like anything i ever seen before.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Manual_Layout4d.svg/125px-Manual_Layout4d.svg.png

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 12:25 AM
My early 90's Volkswagen has Teves antilock, and it's electrohydraulic assist. Meaning, as long as the ignition is on you've got power assist. No vacuum required. It's not a diesel. Some Teves and Bosch antilock systems are made this way, even today.


Thanks for that, I stopped working on volkswagons about that era and never heard of this system...

vpt
01-31-2010, 12:31 AM
Lots of newer vehicles have electric assist.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 12:36 AM
So what is this unit? some kind of electric solenoid hooked to a variable resistor?

vpt
01-31-2010, 12:40 AM
It is an electric motor unit where the booster would normally be and it runs a pump.

vpt
01-31-2010, 12:45 AM
They even come in kits:

http://image.superchevy.com/f/13001420/sucp_0901_12_z+power_brake_boosters+electric_unit. jpg

nheng
01-31-2010, 12:52 AM
After spending 8 hours today nursing a '97 Camry with check engine, ABS and broken belt tensioner, all of this "fly by wire", electric pump, sensor, etc. gives me the willies. We take a simple, dependable mechanical system and replace it with a cheap imported motor, wiring harness and connectors.

Our software industry is not capable of producing mission critical code on a consumer product. These new cars will become ultimate POSs after a handful of years when they really should still be providing good transportation.

When a large part of development time goes into sound systems, mapping systems and creature comfort control systems, we pay the price. Let's bring back simplicity and get all the cr-p out of our cars.

Maybe it's time to stock up on some solid older models ... store them in the same shed as the incandescent bulbs.

danlb
01-31-2010, 02:30 AM
Our software industry is not capable of producing mission critical code on a consumer product. These new cars will become ultimate POSs after a handful of years when they really should still be providing good transportation.



I beg to differ. It's not at all difficult to create rock solid code. It happens all the time. The key is you need trained professionals to design, write and test the system. And it IS a system. You design the hardware and software to work together. You test it using rigid protocols and coverage analyzers to ensure everything is tested.


Don't use the state of PC software as a yardstick for all programming.


But back on topic... The challenge in this case is detecting when it's OK to hit the gas and brakes at the same time. When I'm at a stoplight on a San Francisco hill, I want to be able to rev the engine enough that I do not coast backwards when I take my foot off the brake. A simple "brake overrides throttle" decision is not always correct.

Interestingly, the hybrids are not included in the recall. I know that they decelerate differently than a conventional car, but I thought they used the same pedals and sensors.

Dan

Evan
01-31-2010, 03:39 AM
I am curious what happens on the model in question if it is shifted to "low" with the throttle wide open at high speed. I know the transmission won't engage low gear unless it is safe to do so but what impact would it have on the throttle command, if any?

I also know for a fact that I would be instantly aware that the pedal was caught by the floor mat since it has happened to me more than once on more than one vehicle. Either kick it loose or reach down and pull it back up.

MotorradMike
01-31-2010, 04:45 AM
Uh...... Southbend, Fluke, Agilent... = ALL CHINESE NOW

Those are American companies. The heart and soul of their design philosophy is American. Getting assembly done elsewhere doesn't change that.

Mike

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 05:25 AM
The accident should never have happened. The floor mat had been recalled 2 years ago and recent problems with it had been reported by a customer. Regardless of the driver's skill or lack of it the dealership deserves the blame since it is the dealership that was negligent in not correcting the problem as instructed.

Not according to you in your initial posts, he should have braked it to a stop. After all any vehicle can be braked to a stop from any speed.
[ Except reverse in your case. ]

.

Peter.
01-31-2010, 05:35 AM
You can't stop my bike with the brakes long before full power is used :)

Barrington
01-31-2010, 05:48 AM
So what is this unit? some kind of electric solenoid hooked to a variable resistor?I think 'electric assist' usually refers to the system where an electric motor is coupled to the steering column, with the control signal derived from a torque sensor on the column between the steering wheel and the driven part.

It's claimed to be more fuel efficient than hydraulic and can be programmed to vary the response for different conditions, but I think it's only used on smaller cars as there's a limit to the power available to drive the motor.

Cheers

.

Evan
01-31-2010, 06:04 AM
Not according to you in your initial posts, he should have braked it to a stop. After all any vehicle can be braked to a stop from any speed.
[ Except reverse in your case. ]



He wasn't in reverse John. He should have braked it to a stop. Why he did not is unknown. Apparently you do not understand the difference between the proximate cause and root cause.

Proximate cause: "A cause is proximate when it sets in motion a chain of events which result in the loss without the intervention of any new or independent force....

The driver was the Proximate cause of the accident.

Root cause: The underlying reason for the occurrence of a problem.

The root cause was the floor mat and the dealer's failure to remove it as directed.

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 06:19 AM
He wasn't in reverse John.


See post #161.

hint ? Whooosssshhhh.


He should have braked it to a stop. Why he did not is unknown. Apparently you do not understand the difference between the proximate cause and root cause.



It is known, it's well documented, HE BURNT THE FREAKING BRAKES OUT

Evan
01-31-2010, 06:34 AM
"It is known, it's well documented, HE BURNT THE FREAKING BRAKES OUT"

WHY?

That is a result, not a cause.

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 06:44 AM
No BE-cause he burnt the brakes out the 'result' was the accident but according to you you can't burn the brakes out on any vehicle.

Evan
01-31-2010, 06:59 AM
according to you you can't burn the brakes out on any vehicle.

Not reading the posts again eh? I said he burnt out the brakes. The question is why?

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 07:04 AM
Just apply the brakes and bring the vehicle to a stop. There isn't a vehicle made that the brakes cannot overide the engine even at WOT.

Yes I am reading the posts, this was your first.

And by making this statement if it's true which no one but you believes, then it must stop and so the brakes can't be burnt out.

Because this car had burnt the brakes out and killed the driver your quote above is just red dust.

Ipso Facto, case rests.

Doc Nickel
01-31-2010, 07:08 AM
He wasn't in reverse John.

-Sense of humor? Hello? Somebody check the fuses, I'm not sure the detector's working.


WHY? That is a result, not a cause.

-So which part are you arguing about or disagreeing with? Your first post involved the brakes and the statement that the brakes should have been able to stop the car. The facts of the matter say they couldn't, or the driver didn't.

So where's the dispute?

Doc.

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 07:13 AM
Doc, he's in reverse but just looking for a place to park :rolleyes:

Does the phase "Where angels fear to tread " spring to mind ?

Evan
01-31-2010, 07:15 AM
Sorry John but crap logic doesn't cut it.


-So which part are you arguing about or disagreeing with? Your first post involved the brakes and the statement that the brakes should have been able to stop the car. The facts of the matter say they couldn't, or the driver didn't.


The driver didn't. The brakes could have. Why didn't the driver stop the car?

Tests have show that the brakes could have stopped the car easily from hiway speed. He wasn't driving at 120 when the problem occured. The speed limit is 65 mph on that hiway. Applying the brakes when the problem occured should have resulted in a stop within 200 feet. No fade, no burnt out brakes, first time applied with no issues.

Evan
01-31-2010, 07:21 AM
Another question needs an answer. For the pedal to stick in the first place it has to be pushed to the floor. Why would the driver be flooring the pedal on the hiway in a car that has nearly 300 horsepower? How fast was he driving?

Doc Nickel
01-31-2010, 07:27 AM
Should have, but didn't. And as the apparently similar tests by Car & Driver and Consumer reports illustrate, doing so was not a sure thing even under ideal conditions.

It seems we all agree on these points, so again, where's the dispute?

Doc.

aboard_epsilon
01-31-2010, 07:29 AM
Doc, he's in reverse but just looking for a place to park :rolleyes:

Does the phase "Where angels fear to tread " spring to mind ?

no "who's on first base" autistic and Rainman come to mind . :D

All the best.markj

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 07:31 AM
Another question needs an answer. For the pedal to stick in the first place it has to be pushed to the floor. Why would the driver be flooring the pedal on the hiway in a car that has nearly 300 horsepower? How fast was he driving?

Fast enough that the brakes would stop the vehicle, or is that crap logic ?

.

Evan
01-31-2010, 07:31 AM
It appears there may be an explanation that makes sense.



Investigators with the NHTSA say the car, which was a loaner from a dealership, had a driver’s side rubber all-weather that was too long. It was from a model other than the ES. It is believed the mat interfered with the accelerator and brake pedals.


If the mat prevented full brake application it would explain why the brakes burnt out. Nothing was wrong with the brakes which could have stopped the vehicle if fully applied. Arguments that they couldn't are invalidated by this finding.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mismatched-floor-mat-implicated-in-catastrophic-lexus-crash.html

Doc Nickel
01-31-2010, 07:36 AM
Another question needs an answer. For the pedal to stick in the first place it has to be pushed to the floor. Why would the driver be flooring the pedal on the hiway in a car that has nearly 300 horsepower? How fast was he driving?

-We may never know, but as an anecdote, I've had carbureted vehicles 'stick' before, usually when just starting/warming them on a cold winter day. The venturi effect with the right amount of moisture in the air can ice it.

The standard routine is to stomp and release the pedal quickly, "snap kick" style. This makes the throttle blades snap back into place (as in, down to idle.)

I have no idea how common that sort of response is to anyone who's never dealt with carb icing- or even just a sticky throttle in general.

Doc.

Weston Bye
01-31-2010, 07:38 AM
-We may never know, but as an anecdote, I've had carbureted vehicles 'stick' before, usually when just starting/warming them on a cold winter day. The venturi effect with the right amount of moisture in the air can ice it.

The standard routine is to stomp and release the pedal quickly, "snap kick" style. This makes the throttle blades snap back into place (as in, down to idle.)

I have no idea how common that sort of response is to anyone who's never dealt with carb icing- or even just a sticky throttle in general.

Doc.
Just so. .

Evan
01-31-2010, 07:40 AM
But totally irrelevant to the issue in San Diego.

edit: The problem in this accident has nothing to do with Toyota at all.



Ironically, Toyota recalled Camry and Lexus ES all-weather mats in 2007 after complaints about jammed accelerators. However, the car involved in the crash was not equipped with these mats, but rather mats from another car.


http://www.leftlanenews.com/mismatched-floor-mat-implicated-in-catastrophic-lexus-crash.html

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 09:20 AM
Not reading the posts again eh? I said he burnt out the brakes. The question is why?

Could the reason be due to losing power assist? your able to hold the car down to a certain speed but cannot achieve bringing it to a stop, You then heat the brakes up to a point where you lose the little braking power you had left and then things really snowball as the car goes faster and the heat factor goes up even more...

You can effectively burn out the brakes on allot of high power vehicles if you just apply them mildly and use full throttle, This is exactly what happens when power assist is lost at WOT.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 09:42 AM
I remember some poor design back in the day,
I had to replace the valves on a Maserati Quattroporte due to them floating out and getting stuffed into the pistons,
The Guy was just starting it in the morning and went for a couple pumps (carbureted)

The interior panels were the culprit --- right off to the side of the gas pedal was a panel that ended at the bottom of the pedals throw, it was held down by one screw :eek:

the screw backed off and fell out and I cant remember how many thousands it cost the poor slob... (thank god he was in neutral as this beast had a venturi to go around for every cylinder)

I seem to remember Porsche's of the same era had a spring loaded distributor rotor that would disconnect the path for electricity to continue to the caps pickup's,,, What a little gizmo like that could have saved this guy (and my knuckles)

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 09:47 AM
I hope those electric ABS pumps work better than the ABS system in general. I have ABS on the truck. On ice, it does a reasonable job.

But in EVERY OTHER situation aside from ice, it is DANGEROUS. It simply turns off the brakes for 1 second, and I have rolled free into intersections many many times with the brakes fully depressed, and only good driving by others has avoided accidents so far.

Bitter complaints to the dealer, to GM, and to the NHTSA have produced no results whatsoever. The dealer says they can't touch the system, because "it isn't throwing codes". The others had no reply, but I am sure that if I got in an accident and had to sue GM they would pull out my letter and claim that I "recklessly continued to drive a vehicle which I knew had brake problems". The fact that they (through their dealer) refused to fix it would have no effect on that.


The problem in this accident has nothing to do with Toyota at all.

Nonsense.

If the brake over-ride that Toyota decided was too expensive (or whatever) had been installed, there would not have been any accident nor any runaway situation, and the brakes could not have "burned out".

In THAT case the brakes could have stopped the car against the engine, no questions asked.

But Toyota didn't put that safety feature in this high-powered vehicle. Was it too expensive? Did they not think? They KNEW, OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, that throttle sticking was possible , it isn't as if that has never happened before on any car, floor mats or not.

As for the floor mat, after a collision, the floor mat may be anywhere, I don't know how it was determined that the mat was the ACTUAL cause. "Experts" are wrong as much as other people.

And, " flooring it"? It wasn't his car, and he may have been used to having to floor it in HIS car when merging or whatever, so he did that. Someone mentioned "natural reactions", and that may have been his.



Those are American companies. The heart and soul of their design philosophy is American. Getting assembly done elsewhere doesn't change that.

Mike

Don't count on THAT. It's quite a bit cheaper to get design and engineering done in china or India, and I believe that is already being done.

I just searched Agilent for jobs / recent graduate / china / R&D, and came up with a nice list of available R&D positions in china. So much for US R&D.

Agilent (HP) quit being "american" a long time ago.

Evan
01-31-2010, 09:53 AM
Nonsense.

If the brake over-ride that Toyota decided was too expensive (or whatever) had been installed, there would not have been any accident nor any runaway situation, and the brakes could not have "burned out".

In THAT case the brakes could have stopped the car against the engine, no questions asked.


If Toyota had only put a 100 hp engine in the vehicle the same logic would apply. You cannot expect them to be liable for somebody putting in a floor mat that jams the pedals. Most vehicles DO NOT have a brake override system. Should they ALL be IMMEDIATELY RECALLED?


As for the floor mat, after a collision, the floor mat may be anywhere, I don't know how it was determined that the mat was the ACTUAL cause.

They think so. The mat was much too thick and too long. Do you have better information?

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 10:15 AM
If Toyota had only put a 100 hp engine in the vehicle the same logic would apply. You cannot expect them to be liable for somebody putting in a floor mat that jams the pedals. Most vehicles DO NOT have a brake override system. Should they ALL be IMMEDIATELY RECALLED?

Potentially, YES.

If the vehicles have demonstrated a definite problem, and there is no immediately obvious and accessible way to shut off the engine such as turning off the key (i.e. it is all electronic), then it is a hazard to the occupants, the other drivers, and anyone nearby.

A recall is justified for that.

And note, the floor mat issue is NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM with these particular vehicles..... They have another issue.

Some vehicles have accelerator designs that are much less likely to be jammed by a floor mat.



They think so. The mat was much too thick and too long. Do you have better information?

They "think" so.......... THAT sounds like very solid and reliable information...... :rolleyes:

How long had that floor mat been in place before and how many OTHER times had it cause the car to run away?

What? That was the FIRST time it happened? And it had been in the car for HOW long?

Evan
01-31-2010, 10:27 AM
They "think" so.......... THAT sounds like very solid and reliable information...... How long had that floor mat been in place before and how many OTHER times had it cause the car to run away?

What? That was the FIRST time it happened? And it had been in the car for HOW long?


Go back and read some posts. It happened just three days previous and the customer complained to the dealership. They did nothing.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 10:41 AM
The information age has created a feeding frenzy for the press, Its crazy how a few little incidences can make a car company go from "hero to villain"

Im not saying it doesn't need checking into and patched up (in the incidence's where the car IS to blame) but now you got people afraid to drive their overall unbelievably safe cars.

Things get crazy in a hurry.

As far as the brake override systems most cars are already hardwired for them due to them having cruise controls and when a cruise is in operation the same methods of control are used,
but if they do that then how am I going to have fun with an automatic transmission ---- All I have left is brake torqueing them at a stop light, that's all I got --- and now there going to take that away from me?:(

One last note; Iv wrenched for decade after decade after decade --- and after drilling people to check their engine oil and coolant do you know what the next thing is? Floor mats, most of my customers own manual trannies, its not the throttle or the brake system -- its the clutch pedal,

everything from "my car wont start" (clutch switch not being activated)
to "my shifting has gotten harder"
To "reverse is starting to grind"
To "the clutch is grabbing way to soon"

There comes a point where people have to take responsibility for their actions, Anotherwords, if a floor mat is rubber backed (which almost all of them are) and it holds moisture (which almost all of them do)
and in the winter time you get into the car with snow on your feet (which can happen)
and then your car warms up and the snow melts into the mats (which it will)
and then you drive the car and bunch up your mat off to the side of your gas pedal ( which can happen )
And your too busy talking on your cell phone to notice ( because your an imbecile )
And you park the car and the mat freezes (which it will)

And then you get into the vehicle and put it through your garage wall and kill your wifes and kids (which could happen esp. if your a mormon)

Then guess who's fault it is??? Floor mats need tending to - deal with it,
you also don't want to get in the vehicle to operate it while wearing lead shoe's
However -- if a vehicle has a fault in the pedal/cable/actuator mechanism or such --- Toyota better get on it and fast, its 100% their baby...

I can rig any floor mat to cause an accelerator pedal to stick, even the ones that are supposed to be held down by those cheezy little snaps, OHHH - the snap had sand in it and failed --- sue the company!!! Idiots...

You want to own a car where the floor mat has absolutely 0.00000000000000000000000% probability of causing a safety issue the solution is simple REMOVE THEM....

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 11:03 AM
it's STILL Toyota's problem..... They knew, or should have known........

AK's out of line. if it CAN happen it WILL happen.......... doesn't even need an "idiot"..... and some of the scenarios are pretty long and involved... easy to see AFTERWARDS, but not so easy to see before.

But it all is very simple....... screw teh floor mats, ice, cables, water, whatever.....

there is NO REASON for the brake to be "on" when the throttle is set for WOT or anything close. For that matter there is NO REASON for the brake to be "on" when teh RPM is very high regardless of throttle setting.

IT SHOULD BE A DISALLOWED CONDITION.*

And if it is, we immediately see that if it IS "disallowed", THE BRAKE IS THE ONE THAT SHOULD RULE.

What is it about this concept that is so difficult for people to see that the argument goes ooooooonnnnnn and oooooonnnn.....?


Go back and read some posts. It happened just three days previous and the customer complained to the dealership. They did nothing.

Not this boy, I read 'em to begin with and there's a lot of them. YOU slog thru them all, we can depend on you .....................!

* if you are gonna race it, you already modified it, that's just another mod.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 11:30 AM
AK's out of line. if it CAN happen it WILL happen.......... doesn't even need an "idiot"..... and some of the scenarios are pretty long and involved... easy to see AFTERWARDS, but not so easy to see before.




JT you will never create a floor mat that's 100% idiot proof, they hang out on the floor (hence their name) and their job is to be directly under all the pedals (due to them also being called a mat - which kinda means "something to put your feet on")

Where does this all end?

Does some slob get to sue a car company because he gets into his car - adjusts the tilt steering wheel all the way down and then whoofs down 40 bags of pork rinds while burning up one tank of fuel driving cross country and never takes a dump while doing it, the wheel goes into a "belly bind" and he stuffs it into a denny's, Who's fault is it the slobs or the car company for not installing "drag sensors" into the steering wheel?

More importantly --------- What kind of a nation do you think you will create if you actually keep pampering the slob? and even more importantly --------- How did the slob come to be to begin with?

Whats the price in lives and dollars for creating slobs? How many of them are there as compared to the floor mat incidences?

saltmine
01-31-2010, 11:33 AM
"The guy should have applied the brakes"

He did.

Evan has documentation that this car can be stopped running wide open throttle...Yes. From 70 mph.

Records show the car was well over 100 mph during the runaway that caused the fatal accident.

Inertia and speed increase exponentially. What would have been sufficient to halt a car running WOT at 70 mph, suddenly doesn't at over 110 mph.

The amount of energy dissipated during a 70 mph stop is only about 1/4 of what it takes to bring the same car down from 110 mph.

The engine's torque curve comes into play, also. At 70 mph the maximum torque of the engine is going to be substantially less than that same engine turning at 110 mph. Here both inertia and torque conspire to negate the effectiveness of the car's brakes (a fixed value). The driver's biggest mistake was to let the car achieve such a high velocity in the first place.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 11:40 AM
Evan has documentation that this car can be stopped running wide open throttle...Yes. From 70 mph.




Is this with a vacuum assist braking unit after the pedal has been pumped a couple times?

MotorradMike
01-31-2010, 11:50 AM
And then you get into the vehicle and put it through your garage wall and kill your wifes and kids (which could happen esp. if your a mormon)


Should probably keep religion out of this.

Carld
01-31-2010, 11:50 AM
All this is rather moot considering Toyota says the pedal assembly from CST is defective while it is made from a Toyota drawing and I am sure there are Toyota quality control people at CST checking the parts as to specs. before they are shipped.

They claim the parts from Japan are just fine. As I see it they can't have it both ways.

The other thing is, they have a cure that has been approved by the government and CST says the pedal assembly is not the problem and has been happening before they were making the pedal assembly.

So, will time prove the pedal assembly is NOT the problem and cause Toyota to fall on it's face?

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 12:02 PM
JT you will never create a floor mat that's 100% idiot proof, they hang out on the floor (hence their name) and their job is to be directly under all the pedals (due to them also being called a mat - which kinda means "something to put your feet on")

Where does this all end?



FLOOR MATS?

We are talking about a way for the vehicle to remain in control despite ANY CAUSE that jams the throttle.

Sorry, pal it ain't ABOUT stinkin floor mats, even Toyota knows that.


And throttle "jamming" is becoming much more possible with drive-by wire......now that you don't even have to have your foot on the throttle for the engine to go to WOT.

Is a defective throttle the drivers fault for eating pork rinds?

get real, you aren't even making sense anymore. You were doing so well up to the last couple posts.

vpt
01-31-2010, 12:07 PM
TPS sensors fail all the time, thinking drive by wire is going to be safe and ok is idiotic. Its not cheaper, it has a higher risk of failure, why would any car company use it?

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 01:17 PM
JT -- humor me, im just using extremes to make a point --- Do you believe its really a necessity for manufactures to install this "failsafe" onto vehicles that have zero incidence of ever having a problem?

That's crazy to me --------- Where does it end?

We have hundreds of millions of people and vehicles - its amazing that it all works so very well with all the vast amount of variables

Are you aware that when dealing with these kinds of numbers and trying to change the entire industry over due to a couple "bad eggs" that in the process of overreacting that you can then cause way more damage with the situation at hand? Point being --- You put this throttle canceling devise (brake override) on cars and all the sudden the problem manifests itself into being 100 times worse due to the throttle NOT being actuated and canceling out in the middle of train tracks and intersections because someone has a lazy left foot that hit the brake while their right one was accelerating??? Or some hillbilly has a size 13 shoe and doesn't really know where the thing is at all the time so one foot connects two pedals...
Then what? infrared sensors that verify where the occupants feet are?
Just a little food for thought --------- also - how much crap are we going to put on our cars?
Just build them with good engineering, then I still get to brake torque automatics at stop lights and everyone else is safe -- its a win win and everyone is happy...

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 01:23 PM
Should probably keep religion out of this.


Sorry Mike - your right

to be honest I misprinted Wife and stated wife's and instead of going back to correct it I just ran with it without thinking it might offend, sorry.

Dawai
01-31-2010, 01:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIeoewbPdB4&feature=related

(some humore)
Err name is Cristine.. and she is pissed cause she has not been getting the "good gasoline" and oil.. and not been washed lately.. She likes it when you rub her fenders. It was just a matter of time before she got angry at you.. sitting there with your tin foil hat on.. As she impacts the immovable object and pieces of plastic resemble a aircraft accident fly into the sky.. lil pieces of paper flutter down saying.. "remember hiroshima?"

Not too humorous?
Also the words of a prostitute arguing with a fellow construction worker, "I did not give you the clap, you bought it" Cheap f'ker.. a rubber was only a buck more.. (never hired or paid for a hooker)

A recall concerning our car is in the works too, the drivers side electric window.. I made my wife promise not to stick her head out the window in case the computer is angry.

"anyone remember the first "fly by wire jet airliner? seems it was a french airbus? it had a glorious crash during a fly-by...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5NXpar4Ouw
(edit to add link to "mis information of airbus" completely flown by computer.. nope.. a pilot had the atari stick"..)

danlb
01-31-2010, 02:19 PM
FLOOR MATS?

And throttle "jamming" is becoming much more possible with drive-by wire......now that you don't even have to have your foot on the throttle for the engine to go to WOT.




As several people have posted, it's been a problem since the first cars hit the road in the 1800's. It's not really "more possible", but it is more difficult to predict. With electronic fuel injection, the fuel is really computer controlled anyway, right?

I'd rather have the drive by wire computerized systems than the old style carbs with their choke heaters, dash pots, leaky floats, complex linkages, idle cams, frayed cables and sticky needles.

BTW, I do not understand why someone would drive a truck that one considers unsafe. If the problem is pronounced enough to have almost caused several accidents, why not sell the truck or disable the feature? My life is worth far more than the possible monetary loss incurred when selling a lemon.

Dan

vpt
01-31-2010, 02:24 PM
I think they should junk them all like the government did with cash for clunkers and just start over with the good old fashion cable throttle.

aboard_epsilon
01-31-2010, 02:32 PM
I'd rather have the drive by wire computerized systems than the old style carbs with their choke heaters, dash pots, leaky floats, complex linkages, idle cams, frayed cables and sticky needles.

All those faults you get as the car gets older ..

as fly-by-wire gets older .........you get one enormous bill for repair ..plus a funeral if youre unlucky ..by the looks of things.

I've never trusted computers ..

all the best.markj

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 02:38 PM
VPT Im pretty much in agreement with you on the fly-by-wire, my main concern is it has the potential to go full on when not even touching it (electrical shorts or opens) where most likely a cable does not due to it requiring mechanical effort -- sticking when its floored is one thing - sticking wide open with no or little input is another,

On the flip side -------- after "turning Japanese" years ago I can state that the only real "potential" problem iv ever seen with typical throttle design is that both Honda and Toyota build cars too well, what this means is that after about 350,000 miles the cables do get scary looking although I don't believe iv ever seen one fray, My tercel has 245,000 plus and looks a little spooky ----- im kinda using it as an experimental to see what will happen;)

aboard_epsilon
01-31-2010, 02:45 PM
the last jap bike i had the z650..had two cables one to pull the throttle open and one to pull it closed .

all the best.markj

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 02:49 PM
Hmmmm.... obviously some more safety features are required.

How about a small demolition charge taped to the engine management computer with detonator button on the dash marked "Emergency Only", that should do it.

beanbag
01-31-2010, 03:06 PM
Should probably keep religion out of this.

It was pretty funny, though

vpt
01-31-2010, 03:09 PM
My tercel has 245,000 plus and looks a little spooky ----- im kinda using it as an experimental to see what will happen;)


I had a cable start to fray on our 86 ford F250 with a 6.9 diesel. It got a noticeable stick to the throttle but it never stuck open. You could feel a notch as you gave it throttle and when you let up. Eventually the cable broke and was replaced.

Evan
01-31-2010, 03:11 PM
Evan has documentation that this car can be stopped running wide open throttle...Yes. From 70 mph.

Records show the car was well over 100 mph during the runaway that caused the fatal accident.


I doubt that even that car can accelerate from 70 to 100 in less than half a second.


The driver's biggest mistake was to let the car achieve such a high velocity in the first place.

The floor mat interfered with the brake as well as the accelerator. He wasn't able to fully apply the brake.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 03:16 PM
the last jap bike i had the z650..had two cables one to pull the throttle open and one to pull it closed .

all the best.markj


Yeah but as far as I know DP and Evan are the only ones who wear velcro shoes and I don't think its installed on the bottom, its just to avoid the difficult task of lacing,

maybe some really good bubble gum though...:p

Evan
01-31-2010, 03:31 PM
One day many years ago we went for a drive in our Plymouth Valiant. We were driving on a long stretch of rough gravel road with a speed limit of 80K. I was driving somewhat under the limit but if you slow down too much it gets a lot rougher. Up ahead was a sharp left down hill turn with a cliff to deal with if you didn't make it.

This is the exact spot.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/springhouse.jpg

I let off the gas and began to slow for the turn as usual. Then I started braking. Only, the pedal went to the floor. I pull the parking brake. Nothing.

At this point I had about 5 seconds left to slow down enough to make the turn. I had with me my wife and two kids.

I threw the car into a sideways slide at about 45 degrees to the direction of travel and it slowed just enough and already pointed in the correct direction to make the turn without incident.

The rough road had cause both rear drum brakes to literally fall apart inside the drums. They weren't broken but the return spring had fallen off on each and the shoes had come off the pivot pin.

If I hadn't known how to handle a vehicle in all attitudes and road surfaces the story would have had a much less desirable outcome.

vpt
01-31-2010, 03:37 PM
^ that doesn't look like cananda at all!

deeman
01-31-2010, 03:50 PM
Now that we are talking horror stories...500 hp BB Pontiac to the floor and guess what...throttle wouldn`t back off.Jumped on the brakes and then turned the key to shut the engine down.Steering locked back then and then had to switch it to the run position to steer.No crazy stuff other than the adrenaline rush,popped the hood and found out after the 850 Holley opened up the oil breather came off the valve cover and ended up directly under the throttle linkage binding it in the WOT position.

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 04:04 PM
JT -- humor me, im just using extremes to make a point --- Do you believe its really a necessity for manufactures to install this "failsafe" onto vehicles that have zero incidence of ever having a problem?


YES, it could be




That's crazy to me --------- Where does it end?



That's because you are not thinking.

The Toyotas had "zero incidence" also until they were extensively driven.

Using it or not using it is a DESIGN DECISION.

At the time that decision is made, the vehicle has "zero incidence" of failures.......... it does not exist yet....... Therefore it "obviously is not a problem". DO YOU SUPPOSE THAT MAKES THE DECISION NOT TO USE IT IN REAL VEHICLES REASONABLE?

It still is simply mind-boggling that anyone could even consider arguing about it. It doesn't, however, boggle MY mind, I am quite used to this argument, since I have worked for 30+ years in product design.

You folks ALWAYS look at any safety feature, and you say "you don't KNOW that will happen, so why do you think you need this <insert description here> device/feature".

The point is not that it is gonna happen, the point is that it CAN happen. (which amounts to the same thing).

In the discovery process, during the lawsuit, they are gonna find the memo with my name on it saying we should do this. And they are likely gonna ask me in court why it isn't on the product. And I am gonna say "because we were ordered NOT to include it", and name names, because I am under oath.

if you are asking whether or not to retrofit it on a production vehicle with a long track record of NO incidence of the problem, that is a question which can only be answered with a risk analysis. My inclination is to NOT do it in most cases.

But if an analysis shows that it CAN happen with a reasonable set of conditions, and it is reasonably possible to correct it, then YES it possibly SHOULD be done. The good record just means you have dodged the bullet so far.

As for older cars, the mechanical systems just don't allow for a brake over-ride very easily, if at all, without impractical mods. So no, leave them, they are getting scrapped soon anyhow, and most have a track record of few or no problems anyway.

The "fly by wire" vehicles have several factors.......

1) they have various electronic known possible faults which can cause the condition in ways that mechanical systems are totally immune to.

2) they have a computer which, if working at all, "knows" what is going on and has the means to perform the "brake over-ride". It can try to close the throttle, or it can kill spark and/or fuel.

3) The change is almost cost-free in production, it only has NRE charges, since it is software. While not cost-free, it will probably cost less than one lawsuit.

4) it covers a huge number of possible "runaway" problems including a fair number of the "user-error" types.

5) The downside is extremely limited as far as performance is concerned. Most users who would notice it as an issue are racing the vehicle, and can mod it to their satisfaction.


The basic thing here is that "fly-by-wire" is not a new thing, and the only reason it is "newish" is that it is now being installed in "slash cost to the bone" applications, like automobiles.

I understand that some diesel trucks have multiple control inputs for the accelerator, and bad ones are ignored (ones that don't agree with the others). That's a good step against bad controls that lose contact and give a full throttle input.

Taking another step by requiring a means to prevent a runaway throttle input (whether or not it is user input) from overpowering the brake input is only sensible. We have had years of these problems making the news, it isn't something weird anymore.

Remember, this is something which the driver OFTEN DOES NOT HAVE CONTROL OVER. The driver's only recourse is to shut down the engine and try to get to a safe location. This is an emergency procedure whiuch it is NOT REASONABLE to expect every person to do, given driving conditions.

But with the over-ride, the driver merely has to do what they always do, put on the brakes, a normal natural instant reaction, and the problem is handled.

Sorry, you LOSE this one.

Willy
01-31-2010, 04:07 PM
I doubt that even that car can accelerate from 70 to 100 in less than half a second.
The floor mat interfered with the brake as well as the accelerator. He wasn't able to fully apply the brake.


Evan, the biggest mistake on the part of the CHP officer was not putting the car into neutral.

As to the brake and or throttle being fouled or not in this particular instance is purely speculation.

Although there are numerous examples to illustrate that most new cars cannot stop under stop under full throttle, freeway speed conditions, I know you disagree.



Originally Posted by Evan
Smoked disk brakes? I find that hard to believe. Disk brakes will work up to red hot. The braking system has far greater ability to lock the wheels than the engine has to turn them. Even at WOT the brakes should be able to lock the wheels.


Here is another example of a new Toyota that cannot stop at speed under full throttle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT07_JbnKWQ&feature=related).

While I realize that this is yet another Consumer Reports video as presented by ABC News, both highly suspect sources, as they do not substantiate you opinion. They do again indicate that at least several automakers are of the opinion that braking under full throttle is indeed an issue.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 04:09 PM
With electronic fuel injection, the fuel is really computer controlled anyway, right?

Just the fuel -- not the air, typically that's controlled by a cable actuated throttle plate that's directly linked to your foot,,, It is your primary fail safe and like VPT stated; just look at how many times were replacing components like air flow meters and TPS's When it comes to proper mixture it takes two to tango, I find great comfort having my foot directly linked to the engines oxygen supply -- that way the fuel can "wig out" all it wants and I have the final word,

Not so with "SOME" of the new stuff like certain models of direct injection gas ---- now there's no need for a throttle plate and the fuel is computer controlled, all the makings for a disaster as one of the main fail safes has been removed --- its wide open throttle all the time, just add fuel...

Willy
01-31-2010, 04:18 PM
Not so with "SOME" of the new stuff like certain models of direct injection gas ---- now there's no need for a throttle plate and the fuel is computer controlled, all the makings for a disaster as one of the main fail safes has been removed --- its wide open throttle all the time, just add fuel...

Just like a diesel A.K.
Hardly an issue there, both mechanical and electronic versions have a very good record of safety. Just the old Detroit Diesel 2 strokes which had a unique fuel injection system with issues, and they had an emergency air shutdown system.

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 04:20 PM
One night a speaker addressed our clar club
http://www.constructorscarclub.org.nz/ concerning an experience he had driving his 'special' on the race track. He lost oil pressure at speed and switched off the ignition but the engine did not stop! It did stop after he had coasted to a halt. His conclusion was that the air flow through his electric radiator fan drove the fan enough to generate enough voltage to keep the ignition circuit alive.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 04:20 PM
JT youv answered my question, I thought by your one reply that it should be implemented of EVERYTHING,,,, after all - how do you know you have a problem till one "pops" up

My main beef was what kind of "issue's" are we going to create by trying to correct things that don't even have a problem? --------------- Can you predict the outcome? I sure in the hell can't.



"We have hundreds of millions of people and vehicles - its amazing that it all works so very well with all the vast amount of variables

Are you aware that when dealing with these kinds of numbers and trying to change the entire industry over due to a couple "bad eggs" that in the process of overreacting that you can then cause way more damage with the situation at hand? Point being --- You put this throttle canceling devise (brake override) on cars and all the sudden the problem manifests itself into being 100 times worse due to the throttle NOT being actuated and canceling out in the middle of train tracks and intersections because someone has a lazy left foot that hit the brake while their right one was accelerating??? Or some hillbilly has a size 13 shoe and doesn't really know where the thing is at all the time so one foot connects two pedals..."


So my final say in the manner is just go after the bad apples, no real changes in an override system are needed - just make them good apples like the others are - with good design ehh?

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2010, 04:24 PM
Just like a diesel A.K.
Hardly an issue there, both mechanical and electronic versions have a very good record of safety. Just the old Detroit Diesel 2 strokes which had a unique fuel injection system with issues, and they had an emergency air shutdown system.


Yeah but how many of them on the road as compared to all the automobiles?

So "hardly an issue" has room for expansion don't you think?

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 04:31 PM
One day many years ago we went for a drive in our Plymouth Valiant. We were driving on a long stretch of rough gravel road with a speed limit of 80K. I was driving somewhat under the limit but if you slow down too much it gets a lot rougher. Up ahead was a sharp left down hill turn with a cliff to deal with if you didn't make it.

I let off the gas and began to slow for the turn as usual. Then I started braking.

Why did you brake? You should have changed down if you thought you were going too fast, who taught you to drive on gravel? Braking on gravel is very uncertain and besides it really hammers the suspension.


I threw the car into a sideways slide at about 45 degrees to the direction of travel and it slowed just enough and already pointed in the correct direction to make the turn without incident. Which is what you should have been planning in the first place.


If I hadn't known how to handle a vehicle in all attitudes and road surfaces the story would have had a much less desirable outcome. Yeah, right.

Willy
01-31-2010, 04:34 PM
Yeah but how many of them on the road as compared to all the automobiles?

So "hardly an issue" has room for expansion don't you think?

Not really.
Conservative estimates put about 15.5 million commercial trucks on US roads alone, most are diesel powered.
Add to this figure millions of diesel powered pickups sold in the US during the last 30 years.
How big of a data base do you need?

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 04:37 PM
My main beef was what kind of "issue's" are we going to create by trying to correct things that don't even have a problem? --------------- Can you predict the outcome? I sure in the hell can't.


Point being --- You put this throttle canceling devise (brake override) on cars and all the sudden the problem manifests itself into being 100 times worse due to the throttle NOT being actuated and canceling out in the middle of train tracks and intersections because someone has a lazy left foot that hit the brake while their right one was accelerating??? Or some hillbilly has a size 13 shoe and doesn't really know where the thing is at all the time so one foot connects two pedals..."




I don't think that is what has been proposed........

A time restraint, limits on where the over-ride acts, those can deal with normal driving situations, and since it is a computer software issue, it doesn't 'wear out". The same sensors that control it are already in the vehicle, in general.

At worst, one or two need redundancy, which they might need anyway if they are safety related.


Foot connects two pedals?

Back when the first automatic trannys came out, the brake pedal was made very wide so either foot could be used...... and that design stuck for years.

I always drove sticks, (still do) and the wide brake pedal was just where the clutch pedal was.

Now, one usually jams in the clutch with "authority", and when you do that to the brake, you get flat spots on the tires...... and everything in the vehicle slides forward..... I put a few flat spots on when driving unfamiliar cars.

I see that most vehicles have changed that setup long ago. Obviously I was not alone.

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 04:41 PM
I always thought wide brake pedals were so that the driver could put the left foot on to hold the vehicle while transferring the right foot (normal brake pedal foot) to the accelerator when starting on a grade.

MotorradMike
01-31-2010, 04:55 PM
It was pretty funny, though

Yes it was pretty funny. I actually thought he spelled moron wrong, I never saw the 'wifes'.

Now it's even funnier 'cause the jokes on me.


Mike

MotorradMike
01-31-2010, 05:16 PM
Couple things first:

My wife's car is affected(2009 Corolla S) manual. She's an OK driver and we've gone over what to do in case the accelerator sticks. Quite frankly, I bet we could ignore the recall and never have a problem but, of course, we'll do it.

I despise the 'fly by wire' accelerator. The response is dismal. I can let off the gas at 120KPH and wait 5 seconds before the car responds. Driving it a bit hard is no fun. It jerks around because the computer can't keep up. Why we ended up with this car is a whole 'nother story. I told the dealer what I thought of it ... 'shrug'.

Now:
Who of you would trade places with the guy who crashed the Lexus 1 minute before the issue and bring the car safely to a halt? Just how stupid was this guy? Was he so full of doughnuts he couldn't move the mat? Would he have had to get out the manual to figure out how to turn it off at his first stop?


Mike

beanbag
01-31-2010, 05:25 PM
I threw the car into a sideways slide at about 45 degrees to the direction of travel and it slowed just enough and already pointed in the correct direction to make the turn without incident.


It would have been nice if my driver's training had included the Scandinavian Flick

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 05:33 PM
It would have been nice if my driver's training had included the Scandinavian Flick

Evan said "I was driving somewhat under the limit but if you slow down too much it gets a lot rougher" which means he was driving at a speed where the wheels have reduced contact with the road and steering and braking are vastly affected. In those conditions it is almost essential to induce a bit of slide if you want to change direction. IMHO of course!:p

Evan
01-31-2010, 05:39 PM
No, when you up the speed to the point it is smooth it is because the suspension is doing it's job. At lower speeds the sprung weight has time to react to the movement of the unsprung weight. Go faster and only the suspension is able to follow the bumps.

Evan
01-31-2010, 05:45 PM
Why did you brake? You should have changed down if you thought you were going too fast, who taught you to drive on gravel? Braking on gravel is very uncertain and besides it really hammers the suspension.



You are not familiar with the Valiant and it's push button automatic transmission. You have to hold the button for at least 5 seconds before it will shift down. :p

I wasn't going too fast if the car had been operating normally and didn't find out there was a problem until I needed to slow for the turn.

The Artful Bodger
01-31-2010, 05:52 PM
You are not familiar with the Valiant and it's push button automatic transmission. You have to hold the button for at least 5 seconds before it will shift down. :p

I wasn't going too fast if the car had been operating normally and didn't find out there was a problem until I needed to slow for the turn.

Nonetheless, you were able to safely negotiate the corner by sliding which proves you were not going too fast and there was no need for brakes.


You said
No, when you up the speed to the point it is smooth it is because the suspension is doing it's job. At lower speeds the sprung weight has time to react to the movement of the unsprung weight. Go faster and only the suspension is able to follow the bumps.


But as every farm kid who learned to drive in a Ford Customline on deep gravel and corrogated roads "knows" but it took the experts to confirm:-


They built their own washboard road this time, using angle iron welded to a steel bar. Then they measured everything again, using both Kari’s glasses and Grant’s accelerometer. The results from these two instruments, plus the high speed camera, showed that the tires were skipping from peak to peak on the simulated washboard, just as the myth suggested. Less water was spilled and fewer peaks were measured at 70 miles per hour than at 5 miles per hour. Myth CONFIRMED!

http://www.mythbustersfanclub.com/mb2/content/view/190/27/

Mythbusters' findings are obvious from the lightened steering when in the 'float'.