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dp
01-30-2010, 08:00 PM
Or any thread that interests you - like that eagle thread!

Go here:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/printthread.php?t=39202&pp=40

And print to a PDF file using CutePDF or similar PDF printer driver for Windows. Mac users can print to PDF natively.

There are currently 8 pages at 40 posts/page and growing. As the thread continues to grow you need only to print the last page, or the changed pages since the last change you captured.

DENedbalek
01-30-2010, 09:14 PM
Thanks for the tip Dennis.

Dwayne

.RC.
01-30-2010, 11:22 PM
Be nice if we could show the whole thread on one page, then save it, rather then eight pages..

dp
01-30-2010, 11:26 PM
That would be a major drain on the BBS server and the servers that dish up the images. There are tools though that can combine sets of PDF files into a single PDF file. The header material from each page is retained which kind of spoils the flow, but the result is a single PDF file, at least. There is a way to view the entire thread but without pictures by using the Archive viewer. Not much point in that for this particular thread.

And if George can get that thread into a special edition format then so much the better.

I decided to make a PDF now as I notice some images are already rotting off the thread.

RB211
01-30-2010, 11:33 PM
I like microsoft One Note for this purpose, a very nice digital notebook

.RC.
01-30-2010, 11:36 PM
That would be a major drain on the BBS server and the servers that dish up the images.

Probably but for a one off, it shouldnot be a problem..

I have seen some forums which have that option down the bottom...It has the list of pages and another option called "all" which shows every page..

dp
01-31-2010, 12:29 AM
Yes - but imagine some of the threads here that run on for a thousand or more posts. The H1N1 influenza thread, for example. If someone or several someones such as Google or Bing should open that a few times a day that would be quite a significant load. And while it's possible to install a robots.txt file on the server that guards against proper bots taking down your server, not all search engines honor the robots.txt file. Where I work we get hammered frequently by spiders crawling our inventory.

bborr01
01-31-2010, 02:09 AM
Hi guys,

Me again. I have been thinking about developing the shop made tools thread into a website.

I have no experience in developing a website, but I am "on tour" for the winter and will soon have a fair amount of down time.

I have been thinking for a long time about learning web development. Same as I had been thinking about starting this thread for a long time.

I think for me to stick with a project like this, it would have to be something that really interests me. Shop made tools does.

I am hoping to get permission from the contributors to the thread to use their images, etc.

My plan is to organize it into sections for mills, lathes, grinders, hand tools, you get the idea.

You can let me know what you think about my idea at shopmadetools@yahoo.com

Thanks,
Brian

Edited to change email address

dp
01-31-2010, 02:17 AM
Hi guys,

Me again. I have been thinking about developing the shop made tools thread into a website.

It already is a web site.

You probably will have a snarl of legal/copyright laws in many nations to deal with. It's not worth it just to reconstruct what already exists.

John Stevenson
01-31-2010, 06:25 AM
Sorry Brian,
Whilst I have no problem with anyone taking and using any of my ideas from this site or Village press using them for another readers tips book I would not like to see then distributed all over the web.

There is probably nothing new, not much is after nearly 200 years and my ideas are probably derived from others but once they start getting distributed people then start using them for their own ends.

There is already a quite expensive book of Shop Secrets out there that has been compiled as one man's work for financial gain when a quick look thru it shows otherwise.

.

gda
01-31-2010, 06:41 AM
I agree with dp and Sir John.

Any benefit from the tips and trick should go to this the hosting site, even if they only clean up the post up and place it as a sticky to generate site traffic.

You need to support the things you like or they may disappear.

bborr01
01-31-2010, 12:47 PM
Hi Guys,
I was thinking a free site that I could put a link to at the bottom of my posts like Many, Many of the others on this board. I would also reciprocate by putting a link on the site to draw other like minded people to this site.

I'm more interested in making the posts in the shop made tools thread easier to navigate than making $ on it. Plus, I would gain valuable knowledge about website development.

I already have the domain name registered.

I can't see how this could be a losing situation for this site.

Also, as the person who started the thread, I would think that I should get at least some leeway in the use of the material in it. That is to say with the posters permission.

If I hadn't started this thread, we could all be reading about swine flu, Toyota gas pedals, cats and dogs, and almost anything else but machining.

Of course I also had planned to contact fellow Michigan resident George Bulliss to get his feedback before I used any of the information in the posts.

That being said, I still can use my own ideas and those of others I know to build my own site.

Brian

dp
01-31-2010, 02:04 PM
One of the fascinating things I learned while studying copyright case law was the judicial process does not consider innocence, lack of intent, or ignorance in deciding guilt. If someone posts copyrighted material on your blog and you don't know about it, or even if you do and take it down, you're already guilty (this is innocence - you didn't post the image, you hosted it).

Where this innocence, lack of intent or ignorance is considered is in the penalty phase of the trial. I think I'd strive to avoid all that.

lazlo
01-31-2010, 02:11 PM
If someone posts copyrighted material on your blog and you don't know about it, or even if you do and take it down, you're already guilty (this is innocence - you didn't post the image, you hosted it).

Where this innocence, lack of intent or ignorance is considered is in the penalty phase of the trial. I think I'd strive to avoid all that.

I agree Dennis, but there are other people who troll the various machinist forums for interesting ideas that they collect on their web page, so why draw the line with Brian?

dp
01-31-2010, 02:16 PM
I agree Dennis, but there are other people who troll the various machinist forums for interesting ideas that they collect on their web page, so why draw the line with Brian?

I haven't drawn a line with anything but an idea. No need to make it personal. What I've offered has nothing to do with any individual.

Mcgyver
01-31-2010, 03:07 PM
Sorry Brian,
Whilst I have no problem with anyone taking and using any of my ideas from this site or Village press using them for another readers tips book I would not like to see then distributed all over the web.

.

100% agreed. seeing your material copied without permission and often without credit is offensive. Wankerish behaviour at best, makes one want to barf

dp
01-31-2010, 03:17 PM
100% agreed. seeing your material copied without permission and often without credit is offensive. Wankerish behaviour at best, makes one want to barf

It's especially bad if that is done in such a way as to make it appear to be original content, and which becomes part of yet other content and without the permission of the original copyright holder but ironically, with the permission of the person who steals and misrepresents that content.

nheng
01-31-2010, 04:24 PM
Nice tip, especially viewing it in more printer friendly form.

As to server bandwidth, I don't think a few hundred hits from HSM members are going to create a dent the way something like the latest wardrobe malfunction from one of our pop stars or a singing dog does :)

Den

bborr01
01-31-2010, 09:15 PM
To Dennis and McGuyver,

Have you read what I have written?

I have repeatedly stated that I have NO intention of using anything on my website that is not MY OWN intellectual property without the consent of the originator.

Go back and read what I have posted on this thread.

I'm not looking to steal anything. As what was said in a previous post in the shop made tools thread, "knowledge not shared is knowledge lost".

I also would not use someones information without giving them credit for it.

Sir John, if you don't want to have your information used in my website, that is your perogative. AS I HAVE STATED OVER AND OVER, I WILL NOT USE ANY INFORMATION WITHOUT THE ORIGINATORS CONSENT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE IT MUCH CLEARER THAN THAT.

Brian

PS.. I also don't know how anyone would feel that I would be infringing on this site when I would not have any bbs capabilities. Just what I would post.

dp
01-31-2010, 09:23 PM
To Dennis and McGuyver,

Have you read what I have written?

We're not talking about you, friend - it's a bit of an inside joke. Not intended to offend you in any way. I actually agree with your idea but don't see an easy way to do it. I host a lot of web sites and I can tell you it's very complicated when you use other people stuff. If it were easy I'd have already done it.

Here's my personal favorite site I host and it's one of the few I own:

http://TheVirtualBarAndGrill.com/gallery/

I have written or verbal permission from everyone who has a photo there.

bborr01
01-31-2010, 09:49 PM
We're not talking about you, friend - it's a bit of an inside joke. Not intended to offend you in any way. I actually agree with your idea but don't see an easy way to do it. I host a lot of web sites and I can tell you it's very complicated when you use other people stuff. If it were easy I'd have already done it.

Here's my personal favorite site I host and it's one of the few I own:

http://TheVirtualBarAndGrill.com/gallery/

I have written or verbal permission from everyone who has a photo there.

Dennis,

I have looked at the above mentioned site before. Nice site.

I also think that I have enough material of my own to start a site and post only my own material to start. My main intent is to learn how to make/develop a website. A bit selfish on my part. The rest of my intent is to make a site that will be useful to others who share my interest.

I have many, many interests. Machining, metal casting, industrial sewing, gunsmithing, gardening, construction, solar and wind power, and many others.

My intent is to make the world a better place while I am here and don't/won't let anyone stand in my way.

I know this sounds a little polyannaish, but that is the way it is. My friends would tell you that I am very passionate about this and support me 110%.

Much like the shop made tools thread that I started has been very, very well recieved, I think my website also will be.

Altruistic is the word that describes what I would like my relationship to be with the hosts of this bbs.

No offense taken, btw.

Brian

dp
01-31-2010, 10:08 PM
If you need a hosting site... It's what I do. :)

Here's a site that is doing exactly what you've described - it's HSM member Bob Warfield's pages. It is stuff he's collected from around the web and actually very recently from here regarding the still living/breathing Parkerizing thread. He might be able to tell you what the effort is better than most.

http://www.cnccookbook.com/index.htm

bborr01
02-01-2010, 01:39 AM
This is how I archived the shop made tools thread.

I went to the page that I wanted to archive.

Then with the cursor over any portion of the page press Control and A to select all.

Then go to File and select Save as.

Choose save as web archive.

Give it a name or create a folder which is what I did.

Then save or enter.

I then burned them to a disc so I can look at them even if I am offline.

That way I am not using the bandwidth either.

Brian

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 03:17 AM
Suffice to say that in the past I have had good reason to come to grips with the law as it operates in OZ in the area of copyright.

I'd have thought there was implicit approval at least as part of the "membership agreement" that at least some rights were assigned - perhaps on a limited or restricted basis - from/by members to VP for use on this site/forum.

To that extent at least VP may have some rights of its own that they may choose to exercise or extend to others - or not - at VP's discretion - to web sites other than those owned or operated by or for VP and it's forum members.

I am aware that this may not apply or may not be able to be made to apply to non-members ie "visitors".

Good manners at least would seem to require that VP be asked at least and due regard paid to its concerns and response.

I am not sure that VP has assigned any rights for whole slabs and threads or posts from this forum that at least have its approval.

The issue is not just images, but includes text and in turn comment about any matter.

As Dennis (dp) has said, ignorance is no defence as the obligation is "to know".

Previous bad practice by others is neither adequate nor legal precedent or defence for similar action either.

Neither is the fact that someone else was "worse" and/or was not prosecuted.

I'd be very interested in George Bulliss' comment and position here as a/the representative and/or agent of VP in this matter.

dp
02-01-2010, 09:31 AM
There does exist an interesting implicit permission granted by way of the Thread Tools button in each thread. It grants the visitor the opportunity to create a printable page which implies a right to copy, and also the opportunity to email a page which implies a right to share (only a link is shared - the page is not sent). To my knowledge these are not qualified in any of the board rules or agreements. And since any such thing is limited only to content that is maintained on the BBS hardware, images, which are not, are not subject to BBS agreements. I do believe the presentation is, though, which would limit what can be done with screen shots of this board.

Of course neither Thread Tool options are grants or permission to recreate the BBS content for web or dead tree publishing. In fact I was never able to find who the copyright holder is for BBS content as defined by US and by necessity, international law.

bborr01
02-01-2010, 12:00 PM
Oldtiffie,

As I have repeatedly stated in previous posts in this thread, I will not violate any copyrights or use anything on this board without permission from the originator.

If I have to go it alone with only my own ideas, so be it.

However, if some of the people who have posted in the SMT thread choose to share their ideas with me, I don't think that their having posted something on this site voids their ownership of the photos, ideas, etc.

I plan to be a good net citizen in all this and would also be interested in Georges take on this.

George?

Brian

John Stevenson
02-01-2010, 02:42 PM
Brian,
After having had a trawl around the net and visited some sites I didn't know existed, [ thanks for the PM's guys ] it's become clear to me that a lot of what I have posted is being hosted on other sites, some with credits but a lot without.

I can't do a lot about this and to be honest I don't feel it's worth the effort so go ahead and use anything you see on here, at least you had the decency to ask first.

.

bborr01
02-01-2010, 02:52 PM
Thank You John,

In true gentlemanly fashion you came through for me.

Rest assured that anything of yours that I may use on my website will give credit where credit is due.

I would expect nothing less.

Brian

George Bulliss
02-01-2010, 03:47 PM
Brian,

I really don’t have any problems with you posting this particular thread on your site, but this decision does not imply that this would be the case for another thread, or for someone else. When allowing free or paid use of our property, whether printed or on the web, I make my decisions on a case by case basis.

My permission will only take you so far though, as I have no rights to the words and photos of the many posters in this thread. They own their words and photos, just as they would if they were printed in a magazine. Copying for personal use is fine, but hosting the information on a publically accessible site can’t be considered personal use.

You have mentioned your intention to get permission from any poster that you choose to use, which is exactly what you need to do. If the authors give their permission, then I am okay with you using this one thread on your site.

Regarding our (Village Press) use of this thread; we do hope to use this thread for another “Readers’ Tip Book” and I will start another thread about that soon.

George

Evan
02-01-2010, 03:55 PM
In fact I was never able to find who the copyright holder is for BBS content as defined by US and by necessity, international law.


Copyright for each post and related content rests with the poster (making the assumption that the poster holds copyright to the content, not always true).

This is an explicit result of decisions that free the owner of the BBS from liability for the content posted on the BBS. They cannot both own the content and yet not be liable for it.

What that means is that every poster owns his post and is also liable for it. It also means that all such content must be used with permission unless explicit permission to copy is granted. Copyright cannot be granted implicitly, only explicitly. In fact, to transfer copyright to another party requires a written contract. To place something in the public domain requires an explict notice to that effect. To hold copyright over created content requires no notice of any kind, it is automatic.

The concept of fair use is primarily a US concept. Most other countries have no such provision including the UK and Australia. Canada does but it is both less and more limited depending on the actual use.

(cross post with George)

bborr01
02-01-2010, 04:28 PM
Brian,

I really don’t have any problems with you posting this particular thread on your site, but this decision does not imply that this would be the case for another thread, or for someone else. When allowing free or paid use of our property, whether printed or on the web, I make my decisions on a case by case basis.

My permission will only take you so far though, as I have no rights to the words and photos of the many posters in this thread. They own their words and photos, just as they would if they were printed in a magazine. Copying for personal use is fine, but hosting the information on a publically accessible site can’t be considered personal use.

You have mentioned your intention to get permission from any poster that you choose to use, which is exactly what you need to do. If the authors give their permission, then I am okay with you using this one thread on your site.

Regarding our (Village Press) use of this thread; we do hope to use this thread for another “Readers’ Tip Book” and I will start another thread about that soon.

George

Hi George and thanks for the reply.

I think that what I have in mind for a website is something that will be well received by many of the members of this forum and at the same time will benefit this forum with additional traffic from links that I intend to post to it.

Also, If/when VP does a book relating to the information on this thread, I think my website will able to generate interest in that too.

As I have no interest in publishing in paper form, that can remain your domain.

Thanks again,
Brian

dp
02-01-2010, 04:29 PM
Copyright for each post and related content rests with the poster (making the assumption that the poster holds copyright to the content, not always true).

This is an explicit result of decisions that free the owner of the BBS from liability for the content posted on the BBS. They cannot both own the content and yet not be liable for it.

What that means is that every poster owns his post and is also liable for it. It also means that all such content must be used with permission unless explicit permission to copy is granted. Copyright cannot be granted implicitly, only explicitly. In fact, to transfer copyright to another party requires a written contract. To place something in the public domain requires an explict notice to that effect. To hold copyright over created content requires no notice of any kind, it is automatic.

The concept of fair use is primarily a US concept. Most other countries have no such provision including the UK and Australia. Canada does but it is both less and more limited depending on the actual use.

(cross post with George)

By the letter of the law I believe this all to be true - I just could not find applicable statutes or case law to support that belief. In practice in the US things are not always predictable. Nor did I find anything that covers contributions from outside the US.

Speaking of letter of the law re: my reference earlier to the Thread Tools, it is not an explicit grant per the letter of the law, but should it be brought to court it will quickly be shown that the the tool, though not explicit authorization, is at least an attractive nuisance at worst, and a tacit promise to look the other way. That can lead to a reprimand to both parties from the bench and dismissal to all claims. But you never know.

I'm not a lawyer, of course, but I've seen the attractive nuisance cited in a case that involved a drowning and a swimming pool. The pool was the attraction and the fence around it was no defense. It did not matter that the fence met code for fences around a pool.

My bottom line is to practice extreme caution because this area of law is complex and seems always to go to the plaintiff.

whitis
02-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Be nice if we could show the whole thread on one page, then save it, rather then eight pages..

The autopager extension for firefox allows you to merge pages for any web site that breaks into sequential pages with next links. It takes a little configuring to tell it how to recognize the "next" link and what subset to insert. It tries to guess the Xpath rules for that and make suggestions. Once someone has made rules for a particular website, they can submit that rule to the autopager database so others can use it. Various rules have already been submitted for vbulletin based sites, including some which are not domain name specific.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4925

The DOMInspector plugin would allow you to delete anything you don't want included in the printout.

For printing purposes, one could turn off the separator bar that shows where pages were separated.

You don't have to use the "print" version of the thread, either, you can use the normal view. The normal view has the links for each post which if your printing process preserves links into PDF files would allow clicking from the PDF to the original post or copying links for inclusion elsewhere. Normal view might use a bit more toner if actually printed, though.

Evan
02-01-2010, 04:55 PM
Speaking of letter of the law re: my reference earlier to the Thread Tools, it is not an explicit grant per the letter of the law, but should it be brought to court it will quickly be shown that the the tool, though not explicit authorization, is at least an attractive nuisance at worst, and a tacit promise to look the other way. That can lead to a reprimand to both parties from the bench and dismissal to all claims. But you never know.


Copyright law is special in that it invokes reverse onus. The accused must prove innocence by showing that a right to copy existed. All the cards lie with the holder of a copyright. Even the exceptions such as fair use are both limited in scope and are subject to judicial interpretation, usually in favor of the owner of the content.

This is a result of the lobbying and amendments that have been passed under the "urging" of the big content providers such as Disney and company in the Sunny Bono Copyright Extension Act. The trend is to lock down content even beyond the bounds of copyright law when possible and as much as possible.

Laws such as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) override the 1976 Copyright act and amendments both in spirit and in fact as well as the First Amendment by making it illegal to decode coded material, to publish information on how to decode such material and to even talk in public about how to decode such material. The penalties are extreme. While this doesn't apply to this situation it shows how much the tables have been turned to the benefit of the content providers.