PDA

View Full Version : Let's Parkerize Something!



Kibby
01-31-2010, 12:18 PM
Per request from a new board member, I am posting this article here. Please forgive me, but you may have seen this already over on HomeGunsmith.com, but its been noted here that HG is dying, and there may be a lot of people here with stuff to parkerize, that may not even be into guns. So here goes!

After building a few guns, with varying results, I've come to the conclusion that Parkerizing is the only way to go. No matter what finish you do afterwards, a good sandblasting and parking will enhance and prolong the life of your weapon. So I started reading about it, and I bought the AGI dvd and watched that a couple times.

I decided that I wanted to do a few more guns than just a couple AK kits, so I would need a fairly decent tank. More importantly, I would need a heat source. I decided to make my own heat source, and after much waffling about, and a couple Pepsi-colas, I cobbled-together my own pipe burner, with stand to match my tank.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park01.jpg

Made from simple angle iron, and black iron pipe. I drilled holes evenly-spaced in a 60-degree angle all up and down the pipe, and drilled 1/4" holes in the end cap for carburation. A small ball valve adjusts the gas flow.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park02.jpg

An $8 low-pressure regulator on a 40# bottle provides the fuel.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park03.jpg

Here it is all lit up. Surprisingly, a nudge of the ball valve here and there will adjust the flame quite nicely.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park04.jpg

Kibby
01-31-2010, 12:18 PM
http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park06.jpg

Here is the tank I bought from some dude selling them on ebay for $99. It was more than I wanted to spend, but its a far cry for what everyone else was charging, so I happily shelled out the greenbacks for it. I'll have to admit that I am somewhat dissapointed in the quality of work on the upper corners. Notice how they turn down? Looks like he made a couple of bad bends and the sides were too high, and he hammered the corners down and welded them in. Oh well, it holds liquid and does not leak, and was cheap. Aesthetics aside, I feel happy I have it.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park07.jpg

This is the setup I put on the side. All in stainless, the large thermometer is a boiler thermometer I bought at a yard sale for only a dollar a few years ago. It has been serving duty on my smoker, but I decided to clean it up and try it here. I decided that I did not like it there, and since these pics were taken, I have removed it and installed an elbow. The ball valve you see here has a barbed fitting attached to make draining the tank really easy.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park09.jpg

I can't remember why I decided to go with the Lauer solution, but I suspect it was price. I'm not a cheap-ass, but hey it was a lot cheaper than the Brownell's.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park12.jpg

Kibby
01-31-2010, 12:19 PM
I mixed the solution according to their directions in this nice nalgene container. I have a few of them that I picked up wicked cheap at an auction. Handy for stuff like this, and mixing antifreeze, and whatever.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park13.jpg
http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park14.jpg

This is a thermometer I use a lot when I make a knife or have to harden something, it provides an accurate temp for the quenching bath. I ditched the boiler thermometer because in the location I had it, the reading was 10 degrees lower than this one.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park15.jpg

FLAME ON!

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park17.jpg

Kibby
01-31-2010, 12:19 PM
After the solution got to the desired temperature, I had to throttle it down a bit. Surprisingly, the temp held steady once I was able to do this. It stayed between 175-180 degrees the whole time.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park21.jpg

A real necessity or urban myth? Lauer directions called for tossing in a pad of coarse steel wool to "condition" it, but the AGI video said it wasnt necessary with their managese solution. I decided that the best course of action was to blindly follow directions. Hey I ain't no ekspurt ya kno! :lol: Anyway, you can see that after 15 minutes, the steel wool was pretty much parkerized!

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park23.jpg

Here is my barrel and receiver assembly stewing away nicely. I washed it in the dishwasher while the old lady was out shopping and blasted it with 120 grit AO set at 80psi.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park24.jpg

Kibby
01-31-2010, 12:20 PM
And here is the fruit of my labor. This is one of the "Rusty Romys" we all scrambled to buy last year. I was lucky to get a few. It is nice to see new life breathed into it. I like this gun. Its got a Magpul MOE attached to a Vltor M4 stock adaptor. The grip is a CAA, and the handguard is a Choate (which I think is infinitely better than Crapco). The flashhider is a Krebs, and I planned on getting the Krebs peep sight, but the car decided to throw a fit, and cash needed to be diverted from my gun-fun stash to the get-to-work-and-keep-money-coming-in account.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park25.jpg
http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park26.jpg
http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park27.jpg

Thanks for reading. I know I probably left something out. If anyone can think of it, then holler at me!

vpt
01-31-2010, 12:31 PM
How do you stop the parkering from happening inside of the barrel? Or where you don't want it.

wierdscience
01-31-2010, 12:32 PM
Very nice setup and great post.

Couple questions,once everything is up to heat and cooking about how long does it take to complete?

Also once it's Parkerized does the part need anything else to prevent rust?

japcas
01-31-2010, 12:32 PM
Great post and nice build. Thanks for sharing. We do Parco Lubrite coatings on some of the parts we make. We always put a good sized piece of steel wool in the bath before we start soaking parts. We have some litmus paper that turns good and pink, almost red when the mix is right. We let the parts sit in the mix for about 15 minutes or until the part quits bubbling. We have another tank we rinse the bath off in, then we blow the part dry which just takes a second since it is so warm, and dip it in a heated oil tank. Let it cool and wipe down the excess oil. Turns out good and black.

Do you dip yours in oil after your setup?

dp
01-31-2010, 12:38 PM
Your burner reminded me of these - not because there's any fault with your burner, but because I'm adverse to yellow flames on a burner :)

http://www.tejassmokers.com/newproducts_page6.htm

The brass jets can be made or purchased separately.

Back to the thread - that is a nice setup. The results speak for themselves. What are the concerns with the chemicals, and are they a use once and toss or are they re-usable?

I have a number of smaller parts I'd like to treat to prevent corrosion so don't need a rifle-sized tank. I think a stock pot would satisfy all my requirements, in fact, but I don't want to buy a 20 supply of chemicals :)

Kibby
01-31-2010, 01:17 PM
How do you stop the parkering from happening inside of the barrel? Or where you don't want it.

Rubber plugs. Some people whittle their own out of wood. In this instance, the Romanian AK has a chrome barrel, so I didn't bother.

websterz
01-31-2010, 01:20 PM
Your burner reminded me of these - not because there's any fault with your burner, but because I'm adverse to yellow flames on a burner :)

http://www.tejassmokers.com/newproducts_page6.htm

The brass jets can be made or purchased separately.

Back to the thread - that is a nice setup. The results speak for themselves. What are the concerns with the chemicals, and are they a use once and toss or are they re-usable?

I have a number of smaller parts I'd like to treat to prevent corrosion so don't need a rifle-sized tank. I think a stock pot would satisfy all my requirements, in fact, but I don't want to buy a 20 supply of chemicals :)

Not trying to hijack but have a look at this:

http://www.blindhogg.com/homemadesalts.html

Not park'ing but suitable for small parts nonetheless.

Kibby
01-31-2010, 01:22 PM
Great post and nice build. Thanks for sharing. We do Parco Lubrite coatings on some of the parts we make. We always put a good sized piece of steel wool in the bath before we start soaking parts. We have some litmus paper that turns good and pink, almost red when the mix is right. We let the parts sit in the mix for about 15 minutes or until the part quits bubbling. We have another tank we rinse the bath off in, then we blow the part dry which just takes a second since it is so warm, and dip it in a heated oil tank. Let it cool and wipe down the excess oil. Turns out good and black.

Do you dip yours in oil after your setup?

I rinse with clean water, then use Lauer Post Treatment Solution.

Kibby
01-31-2010, 01:24 PM
Very nice setup and great post.

Couple questions,once everything is up to heat and cooking about how long does it take to complete?

Also once it's Parkerized does the part need anything else to prevent rust?

The oil you would use to protect the steel, soaks into the phosphate coating. It is rare that you ever see a rust on a parkerized gun.

Kibby
01-31-2010, 01:32 PM
Your burner reminded me of these - not because there's any fault with your burner, but because I'm adverse to yellow flames on a burner :)

http://www.tejassmokers.com/newproducts_page6.htm

The brass jets can be made or purchased separately.

Back to the thread - that is a nice setup. The results speak for themselves. What are the concerns with the chemicals, and are they a use once and toss or are they re-usable?

I have a number of smaller parts I'd like to treat to prevent corrosion so don't need a rifle-sized tank. I think a stock pot would satisfy all my requirements, in fact, but I don't want to buy a 20 supply of chemicals :)

Yeah my flames are kind of smokey. Its definitely not a professional setup, but indeed it would cost considerably more to purchase a better setup through Brownell's.

The chemicals can be reused many times. You will probably lose chemical due to boil-off (evaporation) and likely need to add more. There is a cruddy sediment-like contamination called "flock" that happens as a normal part of the process. I strain it with a coffee filter back into the jug between uses. There is only one precaution to take concerning the flock. You should stir the solution frequently to assure even heat distribution, and assuring that the flock does not settle. Keeping it floating in solution will eliminate a blotchy park job.

Any stainless steel vessel should work fine for the small stuff. I use a steel stockpot and a hotplate for the small stuff I do.

Kibby
01-31-2010, 01:37 PM
Not trying to hijack but have a look at this:

http://www.blindhogg.com/homemadesalts.html

Not park'ing but suitable for small parts nonetheless.

I've seen Blindhogg's method on another site. For my money, a gallon of solution from Lauer Custom Weaponry will yield 5 gallons of parkerizing solution. All you have to add is heat. Blindhogg's method is dangerous, overcomplicated, and probably just as expensive. FWIW, I have seen guys parkerize stuff in a stainless drywall compound tray from Home Depot, on top of a Coleman stove.

Steve Steven
01-31-2010, 02:05 PM
Good thread, Kibby.

I thought I would add a few things I have learned over 12 years of doing Parkerizing.

I use glass bead, medium grit for my blasting. It takes a lot of air to do a good job, I have two air compressors in tandem to get enough air.

DO NOT HANDLE blasted work with bare hands, I use paper towels to grasp things with, or pliers, washed with brake cleaner to keep them oil free.

I plug barrels with Teflon, Nylon, or wood plugs, unless it is a chromed barrel where I let it go without plugs. I do often get some solution in the barrels, the Parkerizing that results is easily shot out with a few shots. Shotguns I hit it with a barrel hone, works fine.

I hang items with wire, I use mild steel ironworker's wire, stainless such as Kibby used is great. DO NOT let flat pieces, such as shotgun receivers, lay on the bottom, you get a botched job, DAMHIK.

One problem I had was with a small tank and a heavy barrel on a cold day. The temperature of the solution dropped a lot, and the finish was terrible, I redid the job and heated the barrel with a hair dryer going down a cardboard tube with the barrel in it just before putting it in the Parkerizing tank. This worked fine, just be aware of temperature drop if you have a large object and a small amount of fluid.

I rinse off in a hot water tank, then straight into an oil bath. I use a 50-50 mix of Brownells and ATF, I don't think its critical as to what you use.

Chemical Makeup: I have been using a solution for 9 years now, by adding 90% of the evaporation loss with distilled water, and 10% new solution. By new solution I mean the cut down mix, not the concentrate. This is based on a comment in the Brownells guide. Has worked fine for me. I have been on the lookout for a test to check the makeup of the fluid, but have not seen one.

I have been buying my concentrate from a guy in South Carolina, but it has been many years since I bought any and haven't checked to be sure he is still in business.

Just some comments on how I do my work, there are many different ways and they all seem to work.

Steve

BobWarfield
01-31-2010, 02:15 PM
Great series of posts, Kibby.

I've played with Cold Bluing, and liked it. Parkerizing would be a great step up for me. I also want to fool with some anodizing on aluminum. If someone on these boards has done that, it would make a nice thread too.

Best,

BW

Kibby
01-31-2010, 02:31 PM
Good thread, Kibby.

I thought I would add a few things I have learned over 12 years of doing Parkerizing.

I use glass bead, medium grit for my blasting. It takes a lot of air to do a good job, I have two air compressors in tandem to get enough air.

DO NOT HANDLE blasted work with bare hands, I use paper towels to grasp things with, or pliers, washed with brake cleaner to keep them oil free.

I plug barrels with Teflon, Nylon, or wood plugs, unless it is a chromed barrel where I let it go without plugs. I do often get some solution in the barrels, the Parkerizing that results is easily shot out with a few shots. Shotguns I hit it with a barrel hone, works fine.

I hang items with wire, I use mild steel ironworker's wire, stainless such as Kibby used is great. DO NOT let flat pieces, such as shotgun receivers, lay on the bottom, you get a botched job, DAMHIK.

One problem I had was with a small tank and a heavy barrel on a cold day. The temperature of the solution dropped a lot, and the finish was terrible, I redid the job and heated the barrel with a hair dryer going down a cardboard tube with the barrel in it just before putting it in the Parkerizing tank. This worked fine, just be aware of temperature drop if you have a large object and a small amount of fluid.

I rinse off in a hot water tank, then straight into an oil bath. I use a 50-50 mix of Brownells and ATF, I don't think its critical as to what you use.

Chemical Makeup: I have been using a solution for 9 years now, by adding 90% of the evaporation loss with distilled water, and 10% new solution. By new solution I mean the cut down mix, not the concentrate. This is based on a comment in the Brownells guide. Has worked fine for me. I have been on the lookout for a test to check the makeup of the fluid, but have not seen one.

I have been buying my concentrate from a guy in South Carolina, but it has been many years since I bought any and haven't checked to be sure he is still in business.

Just some comments on how I do my work, there are many different ways and they all seem to work.

Steve

I hear you about the need for air. I have a craftsman 50-gallon compressor, and its been good over the years, but I suspect will be time for a better one soon.

Glass beads: I used them for years. I grew weary of them fracturing and wearing out. I switched to some quality aluminum oxide, and the results are far-superior to what I was getting with the beads. This is recommended by AGI by the way.

I agree that keeping it clean yields the best results. I am sure you've run across old surplus military guns that sometimes getting clean enough to park is quite a chore. I soak in the parts washer a while, then scrub good. Then its degreaser and hot water, along with a brush. I even do an acetone bath overnight. Anal, yes, but it leaves nothing to chance.

dp
01-31-2010, 03:30 PM
If the smoke gets to you, that link I provided shows a burner just like yours except it has a mixer on the feed end. They're easy to make from pipe parts.

http://www.tejassmokers.com/images/pipe_burner_flame_3.jpg

Steve Steven
01-31-2010, 03:51 PM
Kibby,
The aluminum oxide works great, I have used it some but its a chore to switch back and forth. The aluminum oxide is a bit more aggressive, and gives a darker, duller finish which appeals to many.

I have had problems with some parts with oil in riveted joints coming out in the heat of the park tank, your soak is a good idea.

Steve

Black_Moons
01-31-2010, 04:10 PM
Why make a low quality air/gas mixer? they seem very easy to make!

a simple gas jet that goes into a larger tube, drill/grind/mill/file/gnaw (whatever floats your boat) two large holes into the tube on either side of the jet, and find something metal that slips over the tube drill two more holes in that, (or make one outta thin sheet metal, doesnt need to go all the way around even, does not have to be even remotely well sealed), slip it over, and rotate (align/unaligns holes/slot) to adjust airflow.

If its a slip fit, jam a metal wedge (Grind the side off a thin peice of bar at an angle?) or something in there once adjusted.. or add a set screw

Basicly just look at how a BBQ does it.. Maybe test (carefuly) with some insense smoke that your holes result in only air getting sucked in and no gas escapeing.

Kibby
01-31-2010, 07:13 PM
Kibby,

I have had problems with some parts with oil in riveted joints coming out in the heat of the park tank, your soak is a good idea.

Steve

Yeah that was the same with me, Steve! Cosmoline, or whatever the Soviet Bloc countries deemed as sufficient rust prevention. Nothing worse than doing what you think was an adequate cleanup job, only to have it ruined because some crud from a foreign country oozed out from under a rivit! :eek:

metalmagpie
09-23-2010, 09:26 AM
Kibby, your air/fuel mix is wrong! I don't know beans about parkerizing, but in my years of building first forge burners and lately meat smoker burners, I know a yellow flame is much colder and less efficient than a blue one. I'm sure it works OK, great article ..

metalmagpie

10KPete
09-09-2011, 02:51 AM
Could someone please post some concrete information about how big/how many holes
to put in a burner pipe??

Or a formula for figuring out same??

Thanks,
Pete

p.s.: Great thread!!!

wierdscience
09-09-2011, 09:37 AM
Could someone please post some concrete information about how big/how many holes
to put in a burner pipe??

Or a formula for figuring out same??

Thanks,
Pete

p.s.: Great thread!!!

I've made a few of these,no tiny holes to drill and cheap to make.Your still gonna need a gas orifice and adjustable regulator,but the burner pipe can't be easier.

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?t=28224

lazlo
09-09-2011, 09:59 AM
Darin, he's talking about the tray heater in post 3, not a forge burner :)

Kibby used black pipe, Pete's asking about the spacing and size of the holes.

philbur
09-09-2011, 11:50 AM
Very interesting post, simple and effective. Looks good for surface treatment of home made tooling etc.

I don't know if this has been said but the yellow flame on the burner is not only inefficient and sooty/dirty it is also potentially dangerous in that one of the products of combustion is carbon monoxide. Many people die every year from carbon monoxide produced by poorly set-up burners. If you continue to run it like it is ensure you have good room ventilation. This in not a maybe risk or a risk to be discussed, it will (and does) kill under the right (or should I say wrong) circumstances. As others have said it is an easy modification to get it to burn correctly.

Phil:)

PS: If you look at any commercial burner you will see that the neat gas is fed into the burner tube through a small nozzle. This gives the gas velocity, which will then suck air in though an air inlet port immediatly adjacent to where the gas exits the gas inlet nozzle. the air supply is adjusted by an adjustable (rotating) sleeve over the air inlet port. The key is you must have gas velocity in order to suck the air in. The gas inlet nozzle needs to be small enough that you still have a decent gas velocity at the lowest gas supply valve setting.

wierdscience
09-10-2011, 01:45 AM
Darin, he's talking about the tray heater in post 3, not a forge burner :)

Kibby used black pipe, Pete's asking about the spacing and size of the holes.

Tray heater,that's what I'm talking about,what are you talking about?:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/burner.jpg

Forestgnome
09-10-2011, 01:15 PM
If the smoke gets to you, that link I provided shows a burner just like yours except it has a mixer on the feed end. They're easy to make from pipe parts.

http://www.tejassmokers.com/images/pipe_burner_flame_3.jpg
Can someone explain the mixer on the end? I don't see one sold on the website.

wierdscience
09-10-2011, 09:18 PM
Can someone explain the mixer on the end? I don't see one sold on the website.
In this picture it shows the air induction holes.A refinement would be a disc with matching holes to use as a throttle plate so the amount of air entering the burner can be controlled.Phil give a good explanation of how it works in his post.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/burnertwo.jpg

jkeyser14
09-10-2011, 09:43 PM
Great series of posts, Kibby.

I've played with Cold Bluing, and liked it. Parkerizing would be a great step up for me. I also want to fool with some anodizing on aluminum. If someone on these boards has done that, it would make a nice thread too.

Best,

BW

I did an anodizing write up on an old website of mine:
http://engineeringhobbyist.com/projects/completed/anodizing/

JoeLee
09-10-2011, 10:00 PM
Very nice set up. I've been working on a small set up for hot blue as I have some machine parts I need to do. A question about plugging the barrel............. I was warned by a couple of people that used to do hot blue and they said never plug the barrel. The preassure created by the 285 deg. soloution will pop the plug out of the end of the barrel and blow the hot bath all over. You don't want to standing next to it if it does. Your thoughts on that please. I have to agree with the other poster on your flames burning to orange, not enough air mixing.
Not sure what you have for an orifice but you need to increase the velocity of the gas which should help to draw in more air. You need the venturi effect.
I made a couple burners for my fireplace and have been playing around with the air fuel mix but don't quite have it perfected yet. To get my flames to burn blue I have to increase the preassure but then they tend to burn off the tubes and flicker. Here is a picture of my stainless burners. I think my problem is the burners just don't get enough air being back in the fireplace.

JL...............................

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/My%20Plug%20Cutter/My%20Pistons/Welding%20Problem/Band%20Saw%20Blade%20Welder/Fireplace/Image005.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/My%20Plug%20Cutter/My%20Pistons/Welding%20Problem/Band%20Saw%20Blade%20Welder/Fireplace/Image003.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/My%20Plug%20Cutter/My%20Pistons/Welding%20Problem/Band%20Saw%20Blade%20Welder/Fireplace/Image004.jpg

MarkBall2
09-10-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm interested in the pipe burner & how the gas intake is set up.

I have a stainless tank I got from ParkerizingTanks years ago when I was building FAL's, but never did get around to making the pipe burner.

I'll have to do that one of these days.

Evan
09-10-2011, 10:35 PM
Yeah my flames are kind of smokey. Its definitely not a professional setup, but indeed it would cost considerably more to purchase a better setup through Brownell's.


It's a good looking system but you must fix that burner. The way it is now it is pumping out a large amount of carbon monoxide. Even with ventilation it will still build up in your blood and tissues because the exposure is cumulative over time. It only takes a very small amount of CO in the air to poison you if the exposure time is long enough. 500 parts per million is plenty and can produce an 80% level of CO in 4 to 8 hours (fatal). CO doesn't reach equilibrium in the blood until it has displaced most of the hemoglobin with Carboxyhemoglobin. Also, once you have built up a certain level via low but steady exposure it will take up to 3 to 4 times longer than the exposure time for the levels to drop significantly.

Evan
09-10-2011, 10:42 PM
I also want to fool with some anodizing on aluminum. If someone on these boards has done that, it would make a nice thread too.



Search the forum. I have posted quite a lot about anodising.

lazlo
09-10-2011, 10:46 PM
Tray heater,that's what I'm talking about,what are you talking about?:)

Sorry Darin, I clicked on the first sets of links, but those looked like a blown forge burner. I just went back on and clicked on the images further into the thread and saw the tray burner. :o

10KPete
09-15-2011, 01:16 AM
I've made a few of these,no tiny holes to drill and cheap to make.Your still gonna need a gas orifice and adjustable regulator,but the burner pipe can't be easier.

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?t=28224


Thanks! That's a huge help.

Pete