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View Full Version : What Recession? ---So you would know!



davidfe
01-31-2010, 04:29 PM
What Recession?

A December USA Today analysis revealed that during the first 18 months of the recent recession, beginning December 2007, the number of federal employees with six-figure salaries shot up from 14 percent of the federal workforce to 19 percent. Defense Department civilian executives earning more than $150,000 went from 1,868 to more than 10,000, and the Department of Transportation, which had only one person earning $170,000 in December 2007, now has 1,690. The average federal salary is $71,206, compared with the private sector's $40,331. [USA Today, 12-10-09]

dp
01-31-2010, 04:32 PM
We voted for change, and change is all we have left. I'm going to need more change before this is over.

gnm109
01-31-2010, 04:46 PM
Hope and change. Heh heh. :)

winchman
01-31-2010, 05:20 PM
I'd be surprised if anyone here is surprised about that.

Tony Ennis
01-31-2010, 06:20 PM
One way politicians make unemployment numbers look good is to create government jobs, even if they are unneeded. They borrow the money required to pay their salary and benefits. The deficit, which seems invisible and unimportant, goes up, unemployment numbers go down.

Uncle O
01-31-2010, 06:20 PM
Hope and change. Heh heh. :)


I think it is "Chains"

lazlo
01-31-2010, 06:41 PM
What Recession?

A December USA Today analysis revealed that during the first 18 months of the recent recession, beginning December 2007, the number of federal employees with six-figure salaries shot up from 14 percent of the federal workforce to 19 percent.

Obama didn't take office until 14 months after the USA Today analysis. So apparently Bush's strategy of Halliburton trickle-down worked :rolleyes:

JoeFin
01-31-2010, 06:43 PM
If the "other party" hadn't pushed for the same Failed Economic Policies as they have used for the last 30 years while "Working Stiffs" were told "Don't Worry, it will Trickle Down to you - eventually" the outcome might have been entirely different

In the most memorable words of Lee Iacoka "Lead, Follow, or Get Out the Way"

In fact I watched CSpin the other night and some Elected Congress Critter Stooge was spewing those same Failed Policies as the answer to all our problems - what an Idiot!

Even Greenspan has publicly attributed the current Economic Crisis as the Direct Result of those Failed policies

dp
01-31-2010, 06:49 PM
Obama didn't take office until 14 months after the USA Today analysis. So apparently Bush's strategy of Halliburton trickle-down worked :rolleyes:

So nearly half that time since has been on Obama's watch. I wonder what a time line would show regarding the rate of growth. Do you suppose it peaked and then started going down starting last January? Or has it not yet peaked?

doctor demo
01-31-2010, 07:21 PM
Risking a visit from gentlemen in suits wearing sun glasses, I think that We the People need to take back control from the Government. A Giant Tea Party with an Entree , they don't have enough room to put all of Us in prison.

It is not a Bush-Obama problem , it doesn't matter who is in office , it is too much government and too much government waste.

Steve

Dawai
01-31-2010, 07:23 PM
By the way, Georgia.. My county to raise revenue done away with the homestead exemption for property taxes.. Everyone now pays full amount.

By the way, my business taxes.. I was notified of a "penalty" added to my account on the 19th, had to respond by the 20th, and it was mailed out by them on the 22nd of Jan 2010.. (after the deadline to respond with protest)

So.. Hurrah for government.. the bums.

sansbury
01-31-2010, 07:28 PM
The part that drives me crazy is that the only two things that ever get cut--seriously cut--are NASA and the military.

There's a good case to be made that the ARES program was a boondoggle that deserved to be cut, just as there is an argument that the F-22 is beyond overkill. I just wish that we were 1/4th as good at cutting other programs, like Head Start, that time has also been proven to be a giant waste of money.

Here is a good site to do your own research:
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=Total%20Spending&year=1970_2010&sname=US&units=p&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&col=c&spending0=30.99_31.48_31.35_29.77_30.22_33.60_33.9 8_32.90_32.01_31.57_33.71_33.62_36.23_36.29_34.42_ 35.46_35.69_35.07_34.71_34.92_36.00_37.20_37.07_36 .36_35.45_35.62_34.79_33.88_33.68_33.19_33.24_34.1 4_35.56_36.11_35.56_35.68_35.93_35.90_37.82_46.22_ 43.47&legend=

Clinton looks like the best small-government president in history. Of course, he had one headwind (Newt Gingrich) and one tailwind (the end of the Cold War "peace dividend") helping out. Even with that, he was much more of a centrist than our current pres.

Tony Ennis
01-31-2010, 07:30 PM
It is not a Bush-Obama problem

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. There is no fundamental difference between the two political parties. It's all a show.

Dawai
01-31-2010, 07:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBaSP31Be8

I like the page 59, Government will have access to all individual bank accounts for monetary withdrawal. Monitor all individual bank accounts,

All small businesses will be monitored and audited.

Yeah, it's about time to take some buckets of tar and feathers and some rails up to Washington Dc..

lazlo
01-31-2010, 07:33 PM
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. There is no fundamental difference between the two political parties. It's all a show.

I agree with that!

hornluv
01-31-2010, 07:35 PM
You know, I notice that so many political posts have this, "My side is right and your side is wrong" attitude. Get your heads out of your butts people. It just isn't that clear cut. No side is completely at fault and no side is completely to blame. They all make decisions that half the country isn't going to like. What's more is that all politicians, regardless of party, spin everything to make themselves look the hero and the other side seem like villains, even among their own party. Until you realize this and can discuss politics intelligently by seeing all aspects of the issues and weighing the costs and benefits to you and others, it really is best to just stay silent.

We're coming up on our primary this Tuesday for Governor, Senator, and a host of lesser offices, and I have no idea where any of the candidates really stand on anything aside from the vague generalities of the party lines. All I have seen are attack ads and the usual populist BS of, "I have a plan to create jobs, send everyone to college, and eliminate the deficit, all without raising taxes." They're all just meaningless words used as a tool by all of them. Their websites are no better. Hardly anyone seems even remotely interested in these rather important details though, and therein lies the problem.

lazlo
01-31-2010, 07:39 PM
The part that drives me crazy is that the only two things that ever get cut--seriously cut--are NASA and the military.

I can't tell if you're joking? The US spends more on the military than the next 10 countries combined! I generated the bar chart with the annual defense spending from the site you referenced:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/World-widedefensespending.pnghttp://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/USDefenseSpending.png

One other comment about the chart you posted, with the giant spike in 2008/2009: that's TARP Part I (Bush) and Part II (Obama). $750 billion each directly into the pockets of Wall Street. Think about it...

Black_Moons
01-31-2010, 08:02 PM
Politics is all bull. When they can (AND DO) say one thing to get elected, and then do the exact opposite, with no reprocussions or penilitys or way to remove them from office, Whats the point in even voting?

How are they allowed to continualy do things the majority of the people oppose? How is that any kinda democratic rule?

Wow, you get to vote beween lieing scumbag 1 and lieing scumbag 2. oh and your vote does not really count and can be overrided! Assumeing they bothered to count it properly anyway, beween voting district reshapeing, party changes, electronic voting machine (in)accuracys/glitchs (Come on, a computer that can't COUNT properly? Bull, thats ALL a computer can do), who knows what your voting for anymore.

Don't like it? don't worry, in just 4 short years (Enough time to wage war with another country and kill hundreds of thousands of innocents... Possabley next time a country that can fight back and bombs your major citys into dust) .. you'll get to have your votes miscounted again!

PS lieing scumbag 3 is not an option. We have spent millions and signed many contracts to insure we not only don't have to debate with them about any issues on any TV shows or news papers, but we won't even refer to them existing and even attempting to vote for them is just 'a waste' because they will never win. Nobodys even considered having a lieing scumbag #4.... Or Ya know, having people vote on. actual issues.. like if to go to war or not.. Or if to continue a war.. or if to spend 600 billion a year on the military thats not actualy doing anything... Or to incress airport security when its the SAFEST FORM OF TRAVEL.. Whats next, Escalator security because a lot of people are crowded onto an escalator so one or two retards blow themselfs up?

Sorry sir, you have to take your shoes off to use this elevator.. no its not because the floors are clean, they are actualy covered in sticky filth and smelly sock juice, its because we think your stupid enough to blow yourself up with your shoes.

Ok im getting offtopic here but anyway. but its all pointless abuses designed to insure you are NOT in any kind of power at all, you don't even feel like you have any human rights anymore. all for a little 'safty' and 'security'

Wheres my safty and security from the goverment? They scare me more and influance every aspect of my life 1000x more then any terrorists or country.

I believe the whole idea of 'voting' was to put the people in power.. Not some jerk who can't manage to say one honest thing in his entire life, and has all the morals of well, a politican. That alone pertty much says it, That there job discription is littarly considered an insult to morality and intelligence.

gnm109
01-31-2010, 08:16 PM
You know, I notice that so many political posts have this, "My side is right and your side is wrong" attitude. Get your heads out of your butts people. It just isn't that clear cut. No side is completely at fault and no side is completely to blame. They all make decisions that half the country isn't going to like. What's more is that all politicians, regardless of party, spin everything to make themselves look the hero and the other side seem like villains, even among their own party. Until you realize this and can discuss politics intelligently by seeing all aspects of the issues and weighing the costs and benefits to you and others, it really is best to just stay silent.

We're coming up on our primary this Tuesday for Governor, Senator, and a host of lesser offices, and I have no idea where any of the candidates really stand on anything aside from the vague generalities of the party lines. All I have seen are attack ads and the usual populist BS of, "I have a plan to create jobs, send everyone to college, and eliminate the deficit, all without raising taxes." They're all just meaningless words used as a tool by all of them. Their websites are no better. Hardly anyone seems even remotely interested in these rather important details though, and therein lies the problem.


Not to worry. If you are in Illinois, just vote democratic.

clutch
01-31-2010, 08:21 PM
The founding fathers didn't envision a monstrous federal government. Their vision was a nation of individual states dealing with most issues of governance. Each State finding their way to solve issues. The 'Laboratory of Democracy' model.

Much easier to keep under control that way.

Then our predecessors voted for the income tax amendment to the Constitution. It has been down hill since.

I cleaned my lathes chip pan today and swept the floor. Must have been 15# of chips, that stuff sure sneaks up on you. I really didn't think I've done that much this winter.

Uncle gave me a thread wire chart, he thought my thread wires would be standard sizes. I measured mine, Made in Detroit by the Detroit Threadwire company (bought on Ebay a long time ago) and sure enough, they matched his chart on diameters. I managed to drop one, spent 20 minutes finding it no where near where I thought it flew. Good thing I swept the shop earlier.

That is my on topic metalworking content :D

Clutch

Tony Ennis
01-31-2010, 08:32 PM
The US spends more on the military than the next 10 countries combined! I generated the bar chart with the annual defense spending from the site you referenced:

That's because we protect the rest of the world from the evils of Socialism and Bad People in General. Also, we bear the brunt of international disaster relief when logistics is concerned. These are military operations.

"Should we be doing these things? If so, to what degree" are fair questions. I'd sort of like to know what our international role is.

JoeFin
01-31-2010, 08:33 PM
It is not a Bush-Obama problem , it doesn't matter who is in office

Steve

DING DING DING - We have a Winner Folks

Political Bickering back and forth / Partisan Politics is the Anesthesia for the Masses while Corporations take over our government and rob the Tax Payers Blind

JoeFin
01-31-2010, 08:36 PM
That's because we protect the rest of the world from the evils of Socialism and Bad People in General. Also, we bear the brunt of international disaster relief when logistics is concerned. These are military operations.

You sure thats not from $140K per year Security Contractors doing the same job and often times standing next to a $20K per year Marine?

You do know we have MORE Contractors in Iraq then all the Armed Forces combined don't you

Tony Ennis
01-31-2010, 08:40 PM
You do know we have MORE Contractors in Iraq then all the Armed Forces combined don't you

Didn't know that. Are they "guards" or civil engineers? If they are basically paramilitaries you have to ask yourself why we feel the need to use them. Hints at a larger problem.

plastikosmd
01-31-2010, 08:56 PM
"Obama didn't take office until 14 months after the USA Today analysis. So apparently Bush's strategy of Halliburton trickle-down worked"

I am not gonna play the blame game but our Congress and continues to be a big part of the problem. Let us not forget where Obama was at the 'start' of the recession.

Rich Carlstedt
01-31-2010, 09:59 PM
Obama didn't take office until 14 months after the USA Today analysis. :rolleyes:
lazlo

Your math is way off my friend
From the Wallstreet Journal
The Business Cycle Dating Committee of the National Bureau of Economic Research met by conference call on Friday, November 28. The committee maintains a chronology of the beginning and ending dates (months and quarters) of U.S. recessions. The committee determined that a peak in economic activity occurred in the U.S. economy in December 2007.

However, The standard definition of a Recession is:
TWO CONSECUTIVE QUARTERS OF LOWER GDP
GDP grew in the first two quarters of 2008 ! ( check it out !)
Growth slowed in Dec07 , but GDP did not decline until 3 rd quarter of 2008 !

OB took office 6 months later not 14

They said economic activity peaked according to 'their definition"
That is not the same as a recession !

Rich

We have Congress to blame ! They allocate the money and place taxes.
Presidents do not !

J Tiers
01-31-2010, 10:32 PM
One other comment about the chart you posted, with the giant spike in 2008/2009: that's TARP Part I (Bush) and Part II (Obama). $750 billion each directly into the pockets of Wall Street. Think about it...

Well some of the bastiches supposedly paid it back....... Doesn't matter, the money never existed anyway.

In fact, ALL money is non-existent...... it has value simply because YOU say it does. When you decide it is worthless, it will BE worthless. Even gold..... no value whatever....... it is valuable because people SAY it is.

Rich is right...... Congress is the problem. To get anything done, you must BRIBE each congressman.

Yep, folks, ALL the congress is on the take.... every one of them CAN be bought, and IS bought every day.

Some with actual money, presumably kept in the freezer as with one recently. Most with re-election money, campaign contributions.

But most also with pet projects, money spent in their area, money TAKEN FROM YOUR TAXES to support them and show that they are "representing their people.". Money that probably doesn't need to be spent..... "bridge to nowhere" anyone?

Representation means bringing money and jobs to their constituency. As much as possible, and the heck with the hindmost, "we'll get ours".

But the real job of a congresscritter is NOT representing you. NOPE.

The real job of any congresscritter these days is getting re-elected. EVERYTHING is subordinate to that. Morals, ethics, who has time for that?

It should not be like that. obviously. But now that the corporations have more rights than people, we can expect the best congress that corporate money can buy. The top of the hit list: OSHA, EPA. Are you ready for the funding cuts that these agencies will take inside of 6 years? It will probably be legal to pay workers with company store chits if the corporations really get going..........

But, remember, your congresscritter needs to be re-elected. If you can't pay for it, someone else will, and they will take ownership.

It's still true that corporations can't vote........ yet...... but there are enough people who will vote as they are told is best, to be a problem.

lazlo
01-31-2010, 10:40 PM
Your math is way off my friend
From the Wallstreet Journal
Growth slowed in Dec07 , but GDP did not decline until 3 rd quarter of 2008 !

According to all accounts, including the National Bureau of Economic Research (http://www.nber.org/) you mention, the recession started at the beginning of December, 2007, as quoted in the USA Today article. More specifically, we lost 3.5 Million jobs in 2008 (Bush's Presidency). Barts posted this sobering chart awhile back --'0' is November, 2007, and the tip of the green line is 14 months later - January, 2009. Coincidentally, when Obama was inaugurated:

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss85/KernelSander/jobsrecessionsjpg.jpg


OB took office 6 months later not 14

Obama was sworn-in on January 20, 2009, 1 week short of 14 months after the recession started, and 14 months after the 6-digit Fed salaries the USA Today study was citing.


We have Congress to blame ! They allocate the money and place taxes. Presidents do not !

Congress surely is to blame, but Presidents spend a lot of money. Bush spent trillions of borrowed money invading Iraq, and Obama is spending trillions on a variety of misplaced ideas, but the net effect is the same :mad:

vpt
01-31-2010, 10:50 PM
I am all about publicly overthrowing the government and starting something new like the mentioned individual state government.

Or just move to canada.

bborr01
01-31-2010, 11:09 PM
Oh, if only we had elected John McCain to continue King Georges policies.

Just joking, tongue firmly planted in cheek.

McCain, the man who was asked what kind of annual income was middle class responded: 5 MILLION DOLLARS.

I always thought that I lived a fairly middle class lifestyle, but I have never even come close to making 10% of what McCain figured was middle class.

Of course when a person doesn't even know how many homes they own, they may be a bit out of touch with the masses. You. Me. Us.

Rant over. You right wingers can go back to listening to your hero Flush.

Brian

Tony Ennis
02-01-2010, 12:02 AM
Bush spent trillions of borrowed money invading Iraq

Congress debated and approved every penny. Congress is the problem, and the rules they've enacted that allow them to be a ruling class.

Everyone in Congress must go. We need term limits.

sansbury
02-01-2010, 01:29 AM
I can't tell if you're joking? The US spends more on the military than the next 10 countries combined!

You need to zoom out a bit farther. I'm not saying we've cut defense the past ten years. What I'm saying is that over the past 50 years or so, "spending cuts" have basically meant cuts to DoD. Find me another government department of similar size (say 0.5-1% of GDP) whose budget has not grown over any 10-15 year period. I'd be interested to know if any exist.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=Defense&year=1970_2014&sname=US&units=p&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&col=c&spending0=9.12_8.23_7.65_6.71_6.56_6.73_6.27_5.99_ 5.71_5.61_6.02_6.19_6.81_6.97_6.84_6.99_7.03_6.76_ 6.47_6.26_5.90_5.34_5.50_5.17_4.76_4.41_4.05_3.91_ 3.72_3.62_3.68_3.64_4.06_4.44_4.67_4.86_4.75_4.76_ 5.15_5.77_5.92_5.36_4.90_4.70_4.58&legend=


One other comment about the chart you posted, with the giant spike in 2008/2009: that's TARP Part I (Bush) and Part II (Obama). $750 billion each directly into the pockets of Wall Street. Think about it...

Or the Stimulus, which was supposed to create jobs, but mostly went to shore up state budgets. Nearly a trillion dollars in debt run up and p!ssed away on grocery bills, basically. I wasn't in favor of any of it!

danlb
02-01-2010, 01:49 AM
Since everyone else is posting opinions and theories and....

My pet conspiracy theory is that McCain chose Palin as his VP to throw the race. The republicans knew that whoever won in 2008 was going to have a terrible time. Things are just too messed up, and there are no simple fixes. The things that will fix the US will be unpopular.

So McCain made a bunch of statements that made him seem senile, and chose a joke for a running mate, ensuring a win for the Democrats.

Come 2012, the public will be angry at the incumbents and the Republicans will be looking real good... By comparison. By the time they get in office in 2013 things will have started to improve, and they should be able to milk that for another several election cycles.

Just my theory. It may even be true. :)

Dan

vpt
02-01-2010, 02:07 AM
^ that sounds pretty good. But to bad by 2013 this whole country will be so pissed off and corrupt they will be lucky if we aren't burnt to the ground in massive outbreaks of rage, protests, and rioting.

Also we will be lucky if some other country doesn't take advantage of our weakness and go to war with us and just take over.

bborr01
02-01-2010, 02:25 AM
Since everyone else is posting opinions and theories and....

My pet conspiracy theory is that McCain chose Palin as his VP to throw the race. The republicans knew that whoever won in 2008 was going to have a terrible time. Things are just too messed up, and there are no simple fixes. The things that will fix the US will be unpopular.

So McCain made a bunch of statements that made him seem senile, and chose a joke for a running mate, ensuring a win for the Democrats.

Come 2012, the public will be angry at the incumbents and the Republicans will be looking real good... By comparison. By the time they get in office in 2013 things will have started to improve, and they should be able to milk that for another several election cycles.

Just my theory. It may even be true. :)

Dan

You're not the only one that has that theory. My thoughts exactly.

Brian

bob ward
02-01-2010, 05:00 AM
Democracy will work well until the politicians figure out they can bribe non productive voters with money taxed from voters who work.

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 05:40 AM
^ that sounds pretty good. But to bad by 2013 this whole country will be so pissed off and corrupt they will be lucky if we aren't burnt to the ground in massive outbreaks of rage, protests, and rioting.

Also we will be lucky if some other country doesn't take advantage of our weakness and go to war with us and just take over.

Its already been documented.

Its gotta be true.

I saw it in the movies - by the Brits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

Now all the Walter Mitty wannabees can come into their own!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mitty

And of course - "Biggles":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biggles

And to "take charge" - "The Inspector General":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inspector_General_(film)

Not to forget "Fantasyland":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasyland

This OZ tale should seem familiar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Pudding

And of course - cargo cultists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

and the Lotus Eaters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus-eaters

Its odd that all the complaints here are about somebody else and "what should be done" (by somebody else) to meet the complainants standards so that the complainants can "take charge" and live the life of Riley while all the "some-body elses" sole purpose in life is for ensuring that Riley and Co. keep on living the life of Riley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_riley

Dream on.

Your Old Dog
02-01-2010, 08:59 AM
Oh, if only we had elected John McCain to continue King Georges policies.

Just joking, tongue firmly planted in cheek.

What the hell you doing in this thread? We're you joking when you called me a trouble maker and got my "it's been a year now" thread locked up? I would have never guessed with your sensabilities that you'd show up here :D I'm just joking.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=39253&highlight=it%27s+been+a+year+now

Your Old Dog
02-01-2010, 09:19 AM
I was worried about the Bush tax cuts when they happened. I was afraid they would shift the financial responcibility for your neighborhood to your neighborhood and that's exactly what happened. (Normally that's how it should be, rich neighborhood...rich taxes, modest neighborhood...modest taxes.) BUT, that meant that any successor to Bush would be free to say, "hey, we aren't getting our share of tax dollars" and hammer us some more. In other words, we'd end up spending more on taxes in the end over what we were before Bush made the original cuts. Cuts that he said were "cuts with a time stamp are just a start" and that we'd "get them made permanent in the years to come" and that never happend. Now I ask again, How about that Hope and Change? Everybody happy?

If someone who is only offering "hope and change" is the best candidate some of you can find to vote for you be better off voting for Bono, he's a bigger rock star and more respected around the world. When Barry said he can turn our country into Utopia did you really believe he could do it and thats why he got in?

http://www.mercatornet.com/images/stories/bono1.jpg

PS... Sorry George. Don't know what side of the fence you sit on and don't want to know. I can still be friends with most of these guys even if their viewpoint is different then mine. I don't seem to mind the difference as much as they do. Just suffice it to say I'm a little tired of seeing conservative minded view points muzzled (in general and comment not aimed at this board which I think has been well governed) . I've decided the better thing for our country is for people who believe in smaller government to start mouthing off about it before we let someone turn us into a different country.

Tony Ennis
02-01-2010, 10:00 AM
Democracy will work well until the politicians figure out they can bribe non productive voters with money taxed from voters who work.

That's already happening. That's the only reason Obama got elected. The payoff for the election was the 2nd bailout which was totally controlled by the Dems and went to pay back their special interest supporters.

Contrast to the first bailout, which was used to pay off the Dems' and Republican's special interst supporters. Wow! That's bipartisanship!

Flush them all.

No more ruling class.

Bob Farr
02-01-2010, 10:16 AM
*** Its odd that all the complaints here are about somebody else and "what should be done" (by somebody else) to meet the complainants standards so that the complainants can "take charge" and live the life of Riley while all the "some-body elses" sole purpose in life is for ensuring that Riley and Co. keep on living the life of Riley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_riley

Dream on.

Perhaps we now have Barack O'Riley in charge, put there by the other Riley's of this country to ensure their comfort. Rand's character (and any real) John Galt wouldn't take the job if asked, let alone seek it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

So is the current situation inevitable? There are cycles of better periods: do they have a proximate cause[s], or are they just fortunate coincidences?

Bob

lazlo
02-01-2010, 11:34 AM
Democracy will work well until the politicians figure out they can bribe non productive voters with money taxed from voters who work.
That's already happening. That's the only reason Obama got elected.

You don't really believe that, do you? Obama won because the vast majority of independents, myself included, didn't want another 8 years with a moron at the helm. With the morass that the 2-party system has become, the number of independent voters is approaching 35%.

That's why Scott Brown was elected -- he's a conservative independent who appeals to the mainstream independent voter, so there was a landslide turnout of independents at the polls. I, and many other independent voters, would gladly vote for a moderate conservative like Scott Brown for President. But that doesn't mesh with the radical right-wing crowd.


The payoff for the election was the 2nd bailout which was totally controlled by the Dems and went to pay back their special interest supporters.

TARP stands for Troubled Asset Relief Program. It's a Federal program to buy-back trillions of dollars of toxic assets that Wall Street created during the Credit Default Swap Ponzi Scheme. The vast majority of TARP I and II went to AIG, Bank of America and Chase. The only thing TARP II added was the "Public-Private Investment Fund" a.k.a. the "Bad Bank" to hold all the toxic assets.

Republicans were not complaining about TARP I or II ($750 Billion each), they were complaining about Obama's Economic Stimulus Plan, a third $750 Billion program. There's a lot to criticize in the Economic Stimulus Plan, and the fact that a Democratic President with a SuperMajority in Congress couldn't get universal healthcare signed-off is truly sad.

bborr01
02-01-2010, 12:25 PM
Lots of good points being made here from both sides of the argument.

I just happen to believe that it is the governments job in a capitalistic government to help redistribute, yes redistribute at least some of the wealth through taxing those who can afford to pay taxes.

If that doesn't happen, this country will turn into a third world country with a very small percentage of the population owning a very disproportional share of the wealth. That seems to be happening now. We need politicians who have the courage to do this.

By the way, while I am in no way a multi-millionaire I am willing to pay taxes to help the less fortunate in our society. So is Warren Buffet, Bill Gates and a host of other multi-BILLIONAIRES in this country.

Everyone can't be a CEO. Someone has to do the heavy lifting in society.

Whew, I think it's time for me to go back to some machining posts.

Brian

barts
02-01-2010, 01:33 PM
I just happen to believe that it is the governments job in a capitalistic government to help redistribute, yes redistribute at least some of the wealth through taxing those who can afford to pay taxes.



Hear Hear!

Bring back more progressive tax rates - and end the absurd 15% rate on capital gains, which just stiffs people who work for a living.

- Bart

wierdscience
02-01-2010, 02:56 PM
You don't really believe that, do you? Obama won because the vast majority of independents, myself included, didn't want another 8 years with a moron at the helm.

Instead we have a differently labeled moron.One who bows to....wait for it...the Mayor of Tampa,FLA:D



That's why Scott Brown was elected -- he's a conservative independent who appeals to the mainstream independent voter, so there was a landslide turnout of independents at the polls. I, and many other independent voters, would gladly vote for a moderate conservative like Scott Brown for President. But that doesn't mesh with the radical right-wing crowd.

Actually it does,especially since the only issue Scott is moderate on is Abortion.But that doesn't matter since the rest of his core principals dictate that he vote for any measure his constituents back including a prolife bill if it had support in his district.



Republicans were not complaining about TARP I or II ($750 Billion each), they were complaining about Obama's Economic Stimulus Plan, a third $750 Billion program. There's a lot to criticize in the Economic Stimulus Plan, and the fact that a Democratic President with a SuperMajority in Congress couldn't get universal healthcare signed-off is truly sad.

Obama,Pelosi and Reid are completely inept,but we are lucky in that judging by the absolute crap they are pedaling.Even now they are talking another stimulus diguised as a jobs program,more money to borrow and spend on stuff we don't need.

krutch
02-01-2010, 03:01 PM
Hear Hear!

Bring back more progressive tax rates - and end the absurd 15% rate on capital gains, which just stiffs people who work for a living.

- Bart
Taxes!!! When have they been used to raise revenue? Progressive taxes only stiffle the economy. They are used to influnce or punish.
Every tax cut has been recieved with higher revenue to the government. Always works!! 10% across the board, for everyone!
Look at today, the taxes are going to jump up some more this year. More unemployment as business try to keep the doors open. How can anyone grow for tomorrow when the 'game' rules change?
I had been keeping my business 'alive on paper', while recouperating from surgury. But the punishers of Ill. raised the fees on business, so between that and accountant fees, I desolved my corp. OK, big deal, right. Well, there is no revenue from my enterprize now. Just one example.
Krutch 2K10

krutch
02-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Lots of opinions here. Some good, some drivel. Here is part of mine.
Americas biggest problem is that "we have forgotten who we are". The Constitution is not taught in school, and if it is, not in its original intent! "We the People" have gone to sleep and have lost the prospective of our 'Contract'. It is the best thing man has ever devised, ever! But, like driving a car, if not steered within the lane you can expect a wreck.
We, the voters are responsible for this mess! Yeah, us. Untill we refuse to re-elect any one for at least four or five cycles, D.C. will continue to steer us into the junk yard of history.
I believe a message could be sent if the above senerio were to happen. Perhaps then term limits might become reality. Maybe stop these lifetime retirement plans for public service. How about making it unlawful for an elected official to become rich from his time in office. And then hold them to it!
I have more ideas, but will not bore ya with 'em.
Alas, I must be dreaming to think 'we' will do this.
Krutch 2K10

lazlo
02-01-2010, 03:55 PM
the only issue Scott is moderate on is Abortion.

Hardly. Scott Brown voted for the same-sex marriage law in Massachusetts, is vehemently against a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, voted for a state measure on patients' rights that requires emergency rooms to provide a morning-after pill to rape victims, voted for the 2006 Massachusetts health care reform (which requires all residents to purchase health insurance -- in other words, Massachusetts Universal Healthcare). He's also a big proponent of solar and wind energy, including raising $5 Million to erect a wind turbine and solar panels for St. Mary's Abbey (a Catholic convent).

In other words, he's an awful lot like John McCain, before the GOP remolded him in Bush's image.

Tony Ennis
02-01-2010, 04:35 PM
they were complaining about Obama's Economic Stimulus Plan, a third $750 Billion program.

Oh crap you're right - I forgot the 2nd CASH BONANZA!

And yes I believe Obama got elected by vote-buying on the Dems' side. That being said, the Republicans couldn't have made it any easier for them.

But the party in charge hardly matters. With Evil Bush, we got Gitmo bad press, a dubious war, the Patriot Act, etc. With Obama, we still have Gitmo, we're still in 2 wars, and the Partiot Act hasn't been repealed. The mortgage shell game collapsed on Bush but it could have been anyone - it was truly bipartisan rapage. Congress' response was giving away tons of FREE GOVERNMENT MONEY to the very scoundrels who caused the problem. Endorsed by Republican and Dem congressmen and presidents alike.

Re: Taxes
Debates over taxes are straw men at best, and class warfare at worst. Why bother? We're now spending so much that I can't imagine there's enough income to balance the expenditures. And if there is this year, there wouldn't be 2 or 3 years from now. All told, I'm paying about 40% taxes if you take federal, state, and sales taxes, and then 'fees' into account. Maybe more. How much would sate the federal and state government? 10%? 20%? If I paid more, would congress pay off the debt we already incurred or would they spend it? What does history say about this? Perhaps they would be responsible and let it it evaporate into the interest payment on the loans! *poof* there goes my work, which is real hours of my life - gone!

Members of Congress are not at all concerned with spending within their (our!) means. They're like spoiled entitled teens with infinite credit cards.

If our crazy debt matters, how the hell does this end??

/rant off

old blue
02-01-2010, 04:41 PM
We need amendment 28. I got this in a email.




(Take a look at this and just remember elections in Nov. 2010.



U.S. House & Senate have voted themselves $4,700 and $5,300 raises.
They voted to not give you a S.S. Cost of living raise in 2010 and 2011.
Your Medicaid premiums will go up $285.60 for the 2-years and
You will not get the 3% COLA: $660/yr. Your total 2-yr loss and cost is
-$1,600 or -$3,200 for husband and wife.
3. Over 2-yrs they each get $10,000
4. Do you feel SCREWED?
5. Will they have your cost of drugs - doctor fees - local taxes - food, etc., increase?
NO WAY . They have a raise and better benefits. Why care about you? You never did anything about it in the past. You obviously are too stupid or don't care.
6. Do you really think t hat Nancy, Harry, Chris, Charlie, Barnie, et al, care about you? SEND THE MESSAGE-- You're FIRED.
IN 2010 YOU WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO GET RID OF THE SITTING CONGRESS:
Up to 1/3 OF THE SENATE, AND 100% OF THE HOUSE.

MAKE SURE YOU'RE STILL MAD IN NOVEMBER 2010 AND REMIND THEIR REPLACEMENTS NOT TO SCREW UP.
It is ok to forward this to your sphere of influence if you are finally tired of the abuse.
Maybe it's time for the.........
Amendment 28

"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United
States that does not apply equally to the Senators or Representatives,
and Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators or
Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the
United States."

Let's get this passed around, folks - these people in Washington have brought this upon themselves!!! It's time for retribution. Let's take back America.



If you don't forward this to all your friends you're just part of the problem of national apathy.)

JMcTool
02-01-2010, 06:07 PM
We need amendment 28. I got this in a email.
<snip>
"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United
States that does not apply equally to the Senators or Representatives,
and Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators or
Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the
United States."


I've seen that, and wonder why an amendment to the Constitution they already ignore will be significant to them. I'm just sayin' ....

Jim

MickeyD
02-01-2010, 06:15 PM
Hitler, Nazis, Hitler, Nazis. I call Godwin's Law on this thread before it gets uglier and someone loses an eye.

wierdscience
02-01-2010, 09:58 PM
Hardly. Scott Brown voted for the same-sex marriage law in Massachusetts, is vehemently against a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, voted for a state measure on patients' rights that requires emergency rooms to provide a morning-after pill to rape victims, voted for the 2006 Massachusetts health care reform (which requires all residents to purchase health insurance -- in other words, Massachusetts Universal Healthcare). He's also a big proponent of solar and wind energy, including raising $5 Million to erect a wind turbine and solar panels for St. Mary's Abbey (a Catholic convent).

In other words, he's an awful lot like John McCain, before the GOP remolded him in Bush's image.

He's nothing like McCain,that's why he was elected.The same-sex marriage issue is meaningless,there won't be any amendments either way,that's a national issue that no one will touch.

The morning after pill,also a non-issue it's no different than offering a tetanus shot after a dog bite.Conservatives aren't opposed to handing out the morning after pill in hospital ER's,handing them out in a candy dish at the local high school however is out.

What he says about Massachusetts universal system isn't glowing praise of it,just that we need some form of reform which contrary to Huffpo and Kos readers IS very much favored by many conservatives.Just not this stupid idiotic BS plan the lunatic left has thrown out that does ZERO to reduce cost and instead installs a huge new $1T bureaucratic system.

Wind turbines and solar panels?Conservatives have no problem with either.They do have a problem with Government subsidized windmills and solar panels since they both deliver sustainable power at un-sustainable cost.

The argument that Scott is somehow McCain in a different wrapper has been floated by the left still reeling from a good a-- kicking that they themselves engineered.McCain was always the "Maverick" according to the media for the many times he voted with the Dems when he shouldn't have.It's poetic really that McCain-Feingold came back to bite him in the a-- in the last election.

I voted McCain the last go around,not because I wanted to,but because he unlike Obama actually had a job once,actually worked for a living,actually ran something larger than a lemonade stand.I respect his service,but not his quickness in compromise.

sansbury
02-01-2010, 10:56 PM
The important thing is to give states the opportunity to try different things to see what works for them. The Massachusetts plan is expensive but Mass. is a wealthy state. Maine has a much smaller/cheaper version called DirigoCare and it is becoming a huge problem. Tennessee's TennCare had to be killed before it took the state down with it.

California, Texas, and New York are larger than many European countries. Switzerland sets most of its health policy at the level of each canton, and Swiss cantons are smaller in size and population than many US counties. While it's possible that the feds could do good by, say, creating some universal standards for data exchange formats, I don't understand the rush to create a federal solution. Except maybe everybody thinks they're going to make out like Nebraska and stick someboddy else with the bill!

JoeFin
02-02-2010, 12:02 AM
All good valid points being made

But in these times of Economic Devastation brought on by Greedy Wall St. Financial Institutions can you believe the Repubs are planning on BLOCKING New Banking Reforms designed to prevent yet another Economic Melt Down.

Additionally with all the Hype and Glitz The Dems have still Failed to recall the laws that create Tax Incentives for major Corporations to Outsource Jobs and whole Industries to China

Just Fracken Incredible

old blue
02-02-2010, 12:09 AM
I've seen that, and wonder why an amendment to the Constitution they already ignore will be significant to them. I'm just sayin' ....

Jim

Your wright, and that is another thing, if they go against the constitution
put them out to pasture or jail.

fasto
02-02-2010, 12:17 AM
The Massachusetts plan is expensive but Mass. is a wealthy state.

Mass is $3B in the hole this year, before we even get started, and we have a balanced budget requirement. Can't wait to see how we get out of this. Oh yeah, like last year, just raise taxes 25% again.

vpt
02-02-2010, 12:21 AM
Thats the answer to everything now days! Just raise the taxs! Higher property tax, income tax, cigarette tax, gas tax, tax on tax.

But out of all these taxs the one that really gets me is used vehicle tax. Why should tax be paid over and over again when cars are sold and bought used?

wierdscience
02-02-2010, 12:56 AM
All good valid points being made

But in these times of Economic Devastation brought on by Greedy Wall St. Financial Institutions can you believe the Repubs are planning on BLOCKING New Banking Reforms designed to prevent yet another Economic Melt Down.

Additionally with all the Hype and Glitz The Dems have still Failed to recall the laws that create Tax Incentives for major Corporations to Outsource Jobs and whole Industries to China

Just Fracken Incredible

And it gets worse,Fannie and Freddie are now bailed to the tune of $100Billion and they are talking about another $40-45Billion this summer.All the while continuing the same practices that got them in the mess in the firstplace.

The Banking reform bill needs to be examined closely before it becomes law,it's been quiet,too quiet and that usually means bi-partisan skullduggery.

China,well they're top corporate tax rate is 25%,lower to 15% in certain industries,ours is 40%,that's one reason we won't be hiring anytime soon.Add in to that the attitude of the average American employee and it's easy to see why the jobs go overseas,why would anyone want to stick it out here?

Oh and for more fun,the short term capital gains rate is reverting back to 20% here,before 2011 according to the budget laid on us today.

Okay,so as a wrap up we have

Continued stupidity by BOTH parties.

Banks who we lent tax money we didn't have to bail them out,paying us back with money they collected by increasing all of the fess they charge us for doing business with them.

Two Government(taxpayer) backed mortage compaines who got in trouble with NINJA loans,set to make more of the very same NINJA loans.

China kicking our asses and rightfully so while our own government has us bent over for them to do it.

And finally,if you happen by some miracle to increase your capital by selling some of it for a profit,the government will be inline for %20.

Gasoline is still $2.50/gallon and we STILL refuse to produce more of own and cut OPEC out.

Moving to China is looking better all the time.

doctor demo
02-02-2010, 01:00 AM
Thats the answer to everything now days! Just raise the taxs! Why should tax be paid over and over again when cars are sold and bought used?
So the Government can keep expanding, for You ! Even if You don't need or want it to.

If there isn't a tax for something, just charge a fee for it . Services that there is already a tax for add a fee any way and then tax the fee.

Steve

J. Randall
02-02-2010, 03:46 AM
I usually stay out of these threads, but I have got to compliment you guys. Liberals and conservatives alike are beginning to see the light more as time goes on. Last yr. everyone was defending their candidate or party, and now more are realizing the real problem (Congress). If they wanted to they could hobble a President of either party, but both sides have been infiltrated by progressives with an agenda that they have been harboring for the last 3/4 of a century. I don't know if it is to late, but I think we need to spread the word and vote out the majority of the incumbents and start over. There has been so much damage done it would take yrs. to undo, but we need to start somewhere.
rant over
James

Your Old Dog
02-02-2010, 09:25 AM
I usually stay out of these threads, but I have got to compliment you guys. Liberals and conservatives alike are beginning to see the light more as time goes on. Last yr. everyone was defending their candidate or party, and now more are realizing the real problem (Congress). If they wanted to they could hobble a President of either party, but both sides have been infiltrated by progressives with an agenda that they have been harboring for the last 3/4 of a century. I don't know if it is to late, but I think we need to spread the word and vote out the majority of the incumbents and start over. There has been so much damage done it would take yrs. to undo, but we need to start somewhere.
rant over
James

James I have to say I think your comments are the most accurate to this point. We all need to vote non-encumbent for a few election cycles. How much worse off could we be if we did that? Not much I suspect. If MY party was voted in I'm not convinced that they would do a better job then any other.

Ken_Shea
02-02-2010, 09:47 AM
The Dems have still Failed to recall the laws that create Tax Incentives for major Corporations to Outsource Jobs and whole Industries to China

Just Fracken Incredible

Add insult to injury, now...... Obama has taken China off the spy list!!!!!!!!!!!

(damn, I have difficulty even saying his name, and refuse to add it to the dictionary when it flags it as a misspell)

McCain was a sorry choice as a presidential candidate, but he was at least, an American, not only by birth but in allegiance.

lazlo
02-02-2010, 11:37 AM
The argument that Scott is somehow McCain in a different wrapper has been floated by the left still reeling from a good a-- kicking that they themselves engineered.McCain was always the "Maverick" according to the media for the many times he voted with the Dems when he shouldn't have.

You're completely missing my point. Scott Brown is not McCain in a different wrapper. Like McCain, he's a conservative independent. He calls himself an independent, and points out that many of his political ideals don't follow the GOP party line. During his victory speech, he made the comment "They [the GOP] are going to have an independent thinker down there "

Scott Brown won because the vast majority of voters are fed up with the demagoguery in both parties, and hordes of independent voters showed up on election day. Sound familiar?


It's poetic really that McCain-Feingold came back to bite him in the a-- in the last election.

Ironic, isn't it, that campaign finance has become a multi-billion dollar business, and the laws meant to restrain the corruption are so complex that the guy who wrote the law ran afoul of them.

But the Supreme Court fixed that last week by extending freedom of speech to corporations, unions, and special interest groups, so they can now fund (bribe) any political candidate without limits.

We might as well go the rest of the way and have sponsored government: "[I]the State of the Union, brought to you by Exxon-Mobil", "the Congressional Debate on Free Trade, brought to you by Sony America."

bborr01
02-02-2010, 02:13 PM
This thread is getting more and more like the crap over on PM.

Brian

Tony Ennis
02-02-2010, 02:38 PM
Obama has taken China off the spy list!!!!!!!!!!!

Had not heard that.

"Dear President Obama. You know, the Peoples' Free Democratic Clean and Principled Republic of Human-Rights-Loving China is a nice friendly place. It's embarrassing to be on "the spy list" - it makes us look bad. A PR campaign to clean up our image would cost a lot of money. We'd have to cash several hundreds of billions of US bonds in. You know, as I think about it, that might just slam your economy. That's unfortunate. Unless you have a different solution..."

Ken_Shea
02-02-2010, 02:53 PM
This thread is getting more and more like the crap over on PM.

Brian

Brian, I haven't seen this as crap, some strong honest opinions maybe, but that's not the same as crap, been surprisingly civil, else big G would have shut it down.

Ken

bborr01
02-02-2010, 04:00 PM
Brian, I haven't seen this as crap, some strong honest opinions maybe, but that's not the same as crap, been surprisingly civil, else big G would have shut it down.

Ken

Ken,
Probably right. It just doesn't seem to have a lot to do with machining.
Brian

Ken_Shea
02-02-2010, 04:19 PM
Ken,
It just doesn't seem to have a lot to do with machining.
Brian

LOL, no argument there, happens every winter, much less in the summer.

oldtiffie
02-02-2010, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ken_Shea
Brian, I haven't seen this as crap, some strong honest opinions maybe, but that's not the same as crap, been surprisingly civil, else big G would have shut it down.

Ken


Ken,
Probably right. It just doesn't seem to have a lot to do with machining.
Brian

Brian.

Just sit it out - it will blow itself out - as these always do. They have a life and momentum of their own - which is consistent and predictable.

For "shop" related stuff, try injecting "manufacturing a recess" - but don't surprised if it evolves into "a recession in manufacturing".

mconlee
02-02-2010, 06:46 PM
I wonder how much it would cost walmart if the food stams program was eliminated. Most of that money gets spent there...

also, i wonder how many landlords would have empty appartments if social security was eliminated...

Lots of people sit back and root for the elimination of these programs, and dont realize who would really get hurt. If your mutual fund owns stock in a reit for seniors, or owns stock in walmart, maybe you otta think twice before you advocate the elimination of that tremendous amount of money that goes from the government into the economy.

Your Old Dog
02-02-2010, 09:46 PM
I wonder how much it would cost walmart if the food stams program was eliminated. Most of that money gets spent there...

also, i wonder how many landlords would have empty appartments if social security was eliminated...

Lots of people sit back and root for the elimination of these programs, and dont realize who would really get hurt. If your mutual fund owns stock in a reit for seniors, or owns stock in walmart, maybe you otta think twice before you advocate the elimination of that tremendous amount of money that goes from the government into the economy.

I don't wish for the elimination of these programs and I don't think most people here do. I would bet all I have that most normal people would wish there was some time limit. In these discussions it always seems it has to be all or nothing. If we are going to give them any help with money then we have to give them money for life. Now understand here I am not talking about retarded people, parapalegics and the sickly. I mean people who can.....should take care of their own needs.

Brian, I'd suggest you not follow this thread. Not everyone can handle these types of discussions as has been demonstrated in the past before you arrived here. Just click on down the line to the next machine thread. By the way, on the right side of the screen you will note the number of post a screen has netted. If it only has a few post it could be perceived as not holding much interest to the group. If it has a lot of post one could arrive at the impression some folks are interested.

As I've said before you showed up on this forum, some of us think of it as a collection of acquaintences not unlike the old duffers that show up at McDonalds hamburger joint and talk about what interest them. If they were all retired school teachers I wouldn't likely hang out with them. Here, 60% of the topics are machine related and the others (for most of us) are the candy that keeps things lively while waiting for a machine topic that interest us. That is why you see so many of the same names on post, we come back several times a day.

Tony Ennis
02-02-2010, 10:02 PM
maybe you otta think twice before you advocate the elimination of that tremendous amount of money that goes from the government into the economy.

You mean, the amount of our money that we are forced to give the government, so the government can distribute as the government sees fit.

How about instead the government not take my money for such things and instead lets me select a charity I believe in.

Take the government out and people step up.

JoeFin
02-02-2010, 10:11 PM
I don't wish for the elimination of these programs and I don't think most people here do. I would bet all I have that most normal people would wish there was some time limit. In these discussions it always seems it has to be all or nothing. If we are going to give them any help with money then we have to give them money for life. Now understand here I am not talking about retarded people, parapalegics and the sickly. I mean people who can.....should take care of their own needs.



I think we would all like to see some form of restraint to these programs

For 1, I don't think Social Security Taxes collected should be used for any thing other then Social Security. No one in Government complains as they spend the Billions in Surplus Funds every year. Never once heard 1 single CongressCritter claim he "Hated Spending Social Security Surplus"

I also never understood why Social Security Funds are used for Refugees with Political Asylum Status. Don't know who the CongreeCritters were that voted for it but when that Political Asylum Refugee gets his monthly check or a government sponsored 1% loan to start his own business it comes out of Social Security funds

I trully do believe we as a society have a moral obligation and should take care of our elderly, sick and Mentally Disabled folks.

It is just hard for me to understand how being a Drug Addict qualifies anyone for full disability much less Social Security for the rest of their life. Would not mind a limited number of payments going to a Qualified Rehabilitation facility, but most folks perception of rehabilitation for a Drug Addict includes getting a job. Again some bureaucrat conceived and approved these expenditures of the Working Class Citizen's hard earned Retirement Insurance Fund.

bborr01
02-02-2010, 10:29 PM
Oldtiffie,
I know what you mean about the half life of of these political threads.

YOD,
Sometimes when I feel that I have reached the end of the internet and still have time on my hands, I sit and read threads like this.
Can't seem to help myself.
I also feel an obligation to help balance out the equation between the left and the right. You have probably have already guessed that I lean somewhat left.
I still like to read the opinions of the slightly right and even the very right or left.
I know I am not so smart that I can't learn from those that I don't agree with lockstep.
In fact, that is the beautiful thing about a debate like this one. Everyone gets their say. No turning off the microphone or "sorry, we lost that caller" like on right wing radio.
Don't know about left wing radio, I can't remember ever hearing any.

Ken,
Thanks for your patience with me.

Brian

bobw53
02-02-2010, 10:47 PM
I think we would all like to see some form of restraint to these programs

For 1, I don't think Social Security Taxes collected should be used for any thing other then Social Security. No one in Government complains as they spend the Billions in Surplus Funds every year. Never once heard 1 single CongressCritter claim he "Hated Spending Social Security Surplus"

I hate Al Gore and his money grubbing, but, remember his "lock boxes" he kept talking about when running for president?

As for the free money crap, that really irks me. Out here, if you have a kid you can get welfare, BUT as the kid gets older you get less welfare and you have to start working. Like 8 hours a week when they are a year old, 16 hours at 2, 24 hours at 5. This can be schooling that the state will pay for or even just volunteering at the red cross or the pound. BUT, when they say you have to go to work, its much easier to get knocked up by some gang bangin' thug, then you get 100% for all your kids and you don't have to go to work, AND if the thug goes to jail, which is pretty likely, the state will then pay the child support he wasn't paying.

SS, I understand people pay into it and then rely on it when they get old, but the disability crap has to stop. If your kid has a learning disability, you can get a free check. A friend of mine does speech therapy at one of the elementary schools. She is always filling out SS paperwork for kids, she even had one kid(8 years old) who was diagnosed with a lisp tell her "all right, I'm gettin' a check".

If you're fat (I'm fat) and lazy, you can get a check. Depressed, f-it, don't work, sit at home and become more depressed and get a check.

Food stamps, it puts money into the economy, I can do that too by driving through town and throwing out $20 bills, but I'm not getting anything for it, same with food stamps, thats OUR money just being GIVEN away. How about US/government getting something for that money?? Babysit for the neighbor trying to get off of welfare so she can to class to become a CNA, pick up the trash in the park, take some heat off the pound and take in some foster animals, Home health aide type work, make sure Cranky Old Man Jones at the end of the block, who doesn't have any family left gets at least one good meal a day and his dishes are done. Go play old person volley ball at the nursing home.

It just sucks that there is money pouring out, and even if people had to do just one hour of something for every $25 of free money they got, this country would be so much better off.

Unemployment extended again and again and again, up to almost 2 years now. How about taking some of that money and instead of handing it out, how about throwing some of it at small business. If the gov came to me and said, "hey, we have 20 unemployed machinists in town, if you hire one, we'll pay his wages for the first 6 months, if you can guarantee to keep him employed for a year after that". That would give you time to drum up more business, develop a new product or put more time into marketing what you already have, so that by the time you do have to pay for the employee, it should be painless. I'd take that deal in a second.

Vote 'em all out, D or R, they are ALL THE SAME!!!

spope14
02-02-2010, 10:50 PM
Ah heck, tried to read this for a few days. Gave up, got a bit older. The recession started in1972 with the opening of China, hit bigger in 1976, started rolling bigger in the 1980's when Japan and the Arabs started buying us up on shore and moving things off shore, really hit full stride in 1992 when China was fully recognized. Though we were still a bit dazed and confused, fat and happy for the most part, it all started about then. Add in Nafta and things got beyond control. Add in banking and goofy loans and funds and the way stocks are sold, and things don't even have to be made anymore....

This part recession started in 1998, though we were still fat and happy we had already started "settling for less" by this time. things really started hitting manufacturing, the service economy hit full stride and became entrenched. 2001 showed the material (the cracks in the system) weaknesses of generations and perversions of the system, and we have never been out of recession since then, just in a bit of a breather between 2001 to 2006, when things started going downhill again. Nobody EVER between 2001 and 2006 said we were out of the woods or running strong, it was a time of "OK when will the dookie hit the fan again". Holding our breath, waiting....waiting....knowing.

By 2006, we all were already holding our breath, knowing housing was way too high, manufacturing was stalling and could not build back up easily, Materials prices skyrocketing, US auto Mfr's were in trouble, gas was going both sides of the scale in prices - high and low in a year due to speculation, China buying anything that walked talked or squeaked in terms of materials, fuel, machinery, financial institutions were showing leaks, costs of living were stagnating along with wages. In 2006, we all thought we were fat and happy, but think back, we were already hearing a recession was imminent and we all knew things were on borrowed time.

That the recession "start date" for this little blip on the downward spiral notes October 2007 or so as the start date, it has all been boiling up for decades, our most recent problem is just an extension of 2001.

The recession will end one day, or at least this cycle of it all. We will all be satisfied with a "return to normal", when in the end , our return to normal will once again be another "settling for less than before and calling it happy" and putting a smiley on it all.

One recession ended when everyone became "silicon valley" type employes - think this was in the 1980's, the next one we all became IT and computer people servicing the things now made in China and other countries that we started making a few years back recovering in the last recession, one time health specialists calling in to get service from India where our IT people used to be "at home/on shore", this time - what? Ebay sellers or retail specialists selling the boxes and phone cards to get services?

I sound fatalistic, I do believe the USA has a great future, but until we all realize the problems that started it all off years and years back, then we will be "settling" forever.

bborr01
02-02-2010, 11:06 PM
Bob53 and Scope14,
You guys have nailed it.
Why is it that a person who is a centrist has such a hard time getting elected to high public office?
Probably because we centrists have no lobbyists.
I couldn't agree more that a person on welfare should be able to do something constructive to earn their keep.
All but the worst cases. (Brain dead quadraplegics for example)
If a person is just lazy, put them to work doing something or let them starve or pick through trash to eat.
Nobody ever gave me anything and I don't feel an obligation to prop up someones tired ass just because they are lazy.
Somehow a little temporary help has a way of turning into a way of life.

Brian

wierdscience
02-02-2010, 11:26 PM
Ironic, isn't it, that campaign finance has become a multi-billion dollar business, and the laws meant to restrain the corruption are so complex that the guy who wrote the law ran afoul of them.

But the Supreme Court fixed that last week by extending freedom of speech to corporations, unions, and special interest groups, so they can now fund (bribe) any political candidate without limits.

We might as well go the rest of the way and have sponsored government: "the State of the Union, brought to you by Exxon-Mobil", "the Congressional Debate on Free Trade, brought to you by Sony America."

I knew the court's decision was a good one when Pelosi,Reid and Obama nearly blew a gasket in unison.I will also say that Obama's reaction to the court was revealing.

The decision may in fact be a good thing,if a corporation or political group can now appeal directly to the people,what need will they have for lobbyists?

Also I think the perception being projected by those that oppose the decision is wrong.They tend to make the assertion that somehow corporations didn't have influence before the reversal which is absurd.
.

lazlo
02-02-2010, 11:42 PM
I knew the court's decision was a good one when Pelosi,Reid and Obama nearly blew a gasket in unison.I will also say that Obama's reaction to the court was revealing.

Obama took SCOTUS to task, and he should have. The Supreme Court split exactly along party lines. Both parties of Congress called it an abomination.

Alito mouthed "Its' not true", when what Obama said was exactly true -- not only can corporations, unions and special interest groups now overtly fund political candidates, but foreign-owned corporations can as well.

The various pundits argued that the corporations have to be headquartered in the US to fund political candidates, so Obama was "wrong." Guess what: Sony America, wholly owned by the Japanese, is headquartered in the US. So is Haimer USA, a Chinese company. There are thousands of other examples.

Someone took Alito to task after the State of the Union debacle -- they asked him about foreign-owned subsidiaries (after he claimed it wasn't true), and his response was that it would require further debate in the Supreme Court. :mad:

Can I buy a vote please?


The decision may in fact be a good thing,if a corporation or political group can now appeal directly to the people,what need will they have for lobbyists?

Appeal? You mean bribe, don't you?

So you're OK with Handgun Control, Inc. (the Brady Bill Political Action Committee) funding a political candidate? OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

How about the United Arab Emirates, which owns half of AMD? OK if they sponsor a political candidate? Free Speech now extends to AMD, so it's perfectly legal according to Alito for the Arabs to directly fund a US political candidate.

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 12:56 AM
Obama took SCOTUS to task, and he should have. The Supreme Court split exactly along party lines. Both parties of Congress called it an abomination.

Alito mouthed "Its' not true", when what Obama said was exactly true -- not only can corporations, unions and special interest groups now overtly fund political candidates, but foreign-owned corporations can as well.

The various pundits argued that the corporations have to be headquartered in the US to fund political candidates, so Obama was "wrong." Guess what: Sony America, wholly owned by the Japanese, is headquartered in the US. So is Haimer USA, a Chinese company. There are thousands of other examples.

Someone took Alito to task after the State of the Union debacle -- they asked him about foreign-owned subsidiaries (after he claimed it wasn't true), and his response was that it would require further debate in the Supreme Court. :mad:

Can I buy a vote please?

Are Nissan and Toyota foreign owned?Yes,they also employ more people here than they do in Japan,UAW members in fact.They pay taxes and are subject to our political and legal systems.Should they have freedom of speech?


Appeal? You mean bribe, don't you?

So you're OK with Handgun Control, Inc. (the Brady Bill Political Action Committee) funding a political candidate? OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

How about the United Arab Emirates, which owns half of AMD? OK if they sponsor a political candidate? Free Speech now extends to AMD, so it's perfectly legal according to Alito for the Arabs to directly fund a US political candidate.

Sure,it's a free country,I'm also okay with the NRA funding candidates all the way to the election.

AMD flew Obama all over Illinois during his run for senate after he won he pushed ethanol for all it was worth.That apparently was legal,never saw the light of day while it happened.

Ron Carey stole Teamster pension money to fund Clinton's run,he even got caught,still helped ole'Willy get elected.Was that legal,no,still happened.

I personally witnessed the metal trades local TELL they're members who to vote for.Is it legal,no,but it still happened.

It's very simple,I would rather have corporations overtly fund elections rather than covertly which is precisely what they have been doing for years.

It was apparently okay for Jeffery Imelt,CEO of GE to have NBC and MSNBC running as Obama's own personal propaganda office in the last election.I'm sure Harry and Nancy are fine with that too.

And what of the media?They got Obama elected,painted a false picture of him they did,sold to us like a used car salesmen,but that was all legal like because it's protected free speech see;)

Which is where the real rub comes in doesn't it?The full tilt left MSM may not be able to throw the next election for they're candidate and that is what really pi--es them off.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 01:05 AM
[QUOTE=lazlo] OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

Thats news to me. The UAW now has the retiree health care fund, but as far as I know the pensions of GM retirees are still held by GM.

Where did you get your information.

Do tell.

Brian

bborr01
02-03-2010, 01:08 AM
[QUOTE=wierdscience]Are Nissan and Toyota foreign owned?Yes,they also employ more people here than they do in Japan,UAW members in fact.They pay taxes and are subject to our political and legal systems.Should they have freedom of speech?

UAW members? At Nissan and Toyota?

Please back this up.

I would have thought that would have made the news, if only briefly.

Brian

lazlo
02-03-2010, 01:08 AM
Appeal? You mean bribe, don't you?

So you're OK with Handgun Control, Inc. (the Brady Bill Political Action Committee) funding a political candidate? OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

How about the United Arab Emirates, which owns half of AMD? OK if they sponsor a political candidate? Free Speech now extends to AMD, so it's perfectly legal according to Alito for the Arabs to directly fund a US political candidate.

Sure,it's a free country,I'm also okay with the NRA funding candidates all the way to the election.

How ironic. :rolleyes: It's not a free country if anyone, especially foreign nationals, can now buy any vote they want.

Why don't we just weight our votes, according to your annual salary? That'd be a lot less complicated, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

lazlo
02-03-2010, 01:14 AM
OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

Where did you get your information.

Do tell.

The newspaper? The UAW controls a $54 Billion investment fund. That'll buy a lot of damn Congressmen with last week's Scotus ruling legalizing corruption:


General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., Chrysler LLC and the United Auto Workers have created a $54.4 billion plum for Wall Street. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aB6fUFzhhsUY&refer=us)

With Ford workers' approval of a new labor pact two days ago, all three U.S. automakers have agreed to turn retiree health-care costs over to a union-run trust known as a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association.

The contract agreements have put the previously obscure VEBAs on money managers' radar screens, said Dave Osterndorf, chief health-care actuary at consulting firm Towers Perrin in Milwaukee. The trust may draw interest from investment firms including JPMorgan Chase & Co., State Street Corp. and Merrill Lynch & Co., he said.

``There haven't been these sized funds out there in the past, so no one has really made it their business,'' Osterndorf said. Telecommunications, energy and other companies probably will follow the automakers in creating VEBAs, he said.

Detroit-based GM agreed to seed its fund with $32 billion, Dearborn, Michigan-based Ford will contribute $13.6 billion, and Chrysler, based in Auburn Hills, Michigan, will give $8.8 billion. Under the contracts, the union is allowed to combine the funds, while maintaining separate accounting for each automaker. The VEBA will start in January 2010.

The autoworkers' health-care trust will be equal in size to some of the country's largest pension funds, matching the University of California's $54.4 billion endowment, the 25th largest, according to trade publication Pensions & Investments.

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 01:18 AM
How ironic. :rolleyes: It's not a free country if anyone, especially foreign nationals, can now buy any vote they want.

And they couldn't four weeks ago?Surely you jest?Soros funds Moveon,Soros buys Brasos oil stocks and few weeks later we loan Brazil $10billion to develope they're offshore fields,Nah wern't any votes bought there:rolleyes

]QUOTE=lazlo]Why don't we just weight our votes, according to your annual salary? That'd be a lot less complicated, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a good system to me,Obama wouldn't be president right now would he?:D

lazlo
02-03-2010, 01:21 AM
Why don't we just weight our votes, according to your annual salary? That'd be a lot less complicated, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

Sounds like a good system to me,Obama wouldn't be president right now would he?:D

Considering that the two richest men in the world, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, are Democrats, I don't think that would have the effect you expect.

precisionmetal
02-03-2010, 01:23 AM
Who is John Galt?

bborr01
02-03-2010, 01:30 AM
Lazlo,
Not trying to start something with you but you did say "pension fund" didn't you.

The UAW is in charge of a retiree health care trust fund.

Apples and oranges.

A retiree can not live off of a health care trust fund.

It is strictly to re-imburse medical costs, not put food on the table and a roof over ones head.

Just wanted to clarify.

I'm still waiting to hear from wierdscience about the UAW Toyota and Nissan workers.

Brian

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 01:31 AM
[QUOTE=wierdscience]Are Nissan and Toyota foreign owned?Yes,they also employ more people here than they do in Japan,UAW members in fact.They pay taxes and are subject to our political and legal systems.Should they have freedom of speech?

UAW members? At Nissan and Toyota?

Please back this up.

I would have thought that would have made the news, if only briefly.

Brian

Some are UAW,mostly the partnership operations like the one mentioned in this article.There is also a Nissan facility near here that used to make parts for Saturn before that went bust.Of course the UAW is making hay over the current Toyota recall,I don't remember many vehicles the big three made that didn't have lots of problems so I don't think it holds much water.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703422904575039650571663336.html

There isn't much pressure from anybody in the main facility In Canton to organize and they're probably won't be.Like it or not recent history shows the UAW didn't do much for the big three.

lazlo
02-03-2010, 01:39 AM
Who is John Galt?

Yes, unfettered capitalism and rational self-interest (a.k.a. greed) has worked out so well for the world's economy, hasn't it? How's your 401K doing? :rolleyes:

Funny how sound-bites from a Russian Socialist author have become so popular among the Right-Wing :)

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 01:39 AM
Considering that the two richest men in the world, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, are Democrats, I don't think that would have the effect you expect.

If money buys a vote,how many votes does being on the government tit get you? Seems Bill and Warren are out numbered in the Democrat column.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 01:43 AM
Wierdscience,
The plant in Fremont California is not a Toyota plant. It is a joint venture between General Motors and Toyota.
To the best of my knowledge, no TOYOTA plants in the US are unionized by the UAW or any other union.
Not arguing if the unions are good or bad for anyone on this point.
I also question whether the Nissan plant that made parts for unionized Saturn were actually unionized.
Just because someone supplies parts to a union plant doesn't make them union.
What UAW local was the Nissan plant that supplied Saturn?

Brian

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 01:46 AM
Yes, unfettered capitalism and rational self-interest (a.k.a. greed) has worked out so well for the world's economy, hasn't it? How's your 401K doing? :rolleyes:

Funny how sound-bites from a Russian Socialist author have become so popular among the Right-Wing :)

Bleeding heart liberal socialism isn't doing so well either isn't it? Remind me again who won the war on poverty?

%52 of the budget is entitlements and your saying capitalism is the problem?Shakes head and walks away.

lazlo
02-03-2010, 01:50 AM
Lazlo,
Not trying to start something with you but you did say "pension fund" didn't you.

The UAW is in charge of a retiree health care trust fund.

The UAW control the VEBA, which is a $54 Billion investment fund designed to fund retiree health-care costs. The UAW pension fund is worth over $104 Billion. There were comments made last year that the UAW should buy GM, with a market cap of $4 Billion.

My point being that there are very powerful organizations at work, many of them foreign, with virtually infinite budgets. Scotus' decision last week allows them completely unrestrained funding of political candidates.

If you weren't sure if we had the most corrupt government in the Western Hemisphere, now you are...

lazlo
02-03-2010, 01:57 AM
%52 of the budget is entitlements and your saying capitalism is the problem?

Bleeding heart liberal socialism isn't doing so well either isn't it?

The vast majority of what you're calling "entitlements" are Social Security and Medicare, which supports a great many here on this forum. If that's Bleeding Heart Liberalism, sign me up.

What lower-income Republicans just don't seem to understand is that Wall Street walked away with $7 Trillion dollars in the great Credit Default Swap Ponzi Scheme. That came directly out of your 401K -- it's why people like Dennis had to go back to work from retirement.

Then, to make things worse, Wall Street convinced Congress (both Presidents, both parties) that they needed another $3 Trillion in Tarp I, Tarp II, the AIG bailout, the Bear-Stearns buyout,... to "fix" the economy.

So yes, Ayn Rand's philosophy of self-interest and greed works well, if you're in the upper 1% of the wealthiest people. I haven't seen my trickle-down yet :)

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 01:58 AM
Wierdscience,
The plant in Fremont California is not a Toyota plant. It is a joint venture between General Motors and Toyota.
To the best of my knowledge, no TOYOTA plants in the US are unionized by the UAW or any other union.
Not arguing if the unions are good or bad for anyone on this point.
I also question whether the Nissan plant that made parts for unionized Saturn were actually unionized.
Just because someone supplies parts to a union plant doesn't make them union.
What UAW local was the Nissan plant that supplied Saturn?

Brian

Okay joint venture,but still union the Nissan plant was probably the same way,it was a satelite on the Alabama line,northeast Miss.

I'll call myself corrected and drop the UAW argurement,but my original point still stands.Any company that employs that many Americans should have some influence in the light of day about what goes on.

I also fully believe that an industry or group should have a right to defend itself in that same arena against the whims of aging menopausal Haide-Asbury hippy women who find themselves in congress.Not naming anyone member of congress in particular;)

bborr01
02-03-2010, 02:01 AM
The UAW control the VEBA, which is a $54 Billion investment fund designed to fund retiree health-care costs. The UAW pension fund is worth over $104 Billion. There were comments made last year that the UAW should buy GM, with a market cap of $4 Billion.

My point being that there are very powerful organizations at work, many of them foreign, with virtually infinite budgets. Scotus' decision last week allows them completely unrestrained funding of political candidates.

If you weren't sure if we had the most corrupt government in the Western Hemisphere, now you are...

Lazlo,
The 104 Billion UAW pension fund is not controlled by the UAW.
The health care trust fund is.
Maybe the UAW should buy GM.
Maybe the UAW should buy Ford.
Maybe the UAW should buy all of its members a car and a house and give them a million dollars.
We can dance around this all night but that doesn't change anything.
You mis-spoke in your earlier post and I just want you to fess up.

Brian

lazlo
02-03-2010, 02:02 AM
my original point still stands.Any company that employs that many Americans should have some influence in the light of day about what goes on.

You still don't get it Darrin. It's not "some influence" -- there are now no limits on campaign financing from any corporation, political action committee, or special interest group, including those owned by foreign nationals.

I can't wait to see who the United Arab Emirates elects. :rolleyes:

lazlo
02-03-2010, 02:03 AM
Lazlo,
The 104 Billion UAW pension fund is not controlled by the UAW.
The health care trust fund is.

What are you talking about?? The UAW has $160 Billion in Wall Street Investment funds, between VEBA and their pension fund. That's a huge amount of weight to throw around.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 02:14 AM
What are you talking about?? The UAW has $160 Billion in Wall Street Investment funds, between VEBA and their pension fund. That's a huge amount of weight to throw around.

Lazlo,
Here is what I am talking about.
I am a retired UAW member with 35 years membership.
I have followed this fairly closely seems how my main income depends on it.
I worked for GM for over 20 years and Delphi after that when we were spun off.
I recently had my pension from Delphi turned over to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.
The UAW DOES NOT CONTROL THE PENSION FUNDS.
Not at GM. Not at Delphi.
The UAW pension funds are not run like the teamsters.
The teamsters run their pension funds.
My wife is a GM retiree.
Her pension checks come from GM.
Not the UAW.
I'm not someone with a passing interest in this spreading of misinformation.
Thats what I'm talking about.
Brian

Edit:
Saying that the UAW has 160 billion in wall street investment funds is like me saying that I have 160 billion in wall street investment funds.
I have a stake in it just like the UAW does. I am part of the UAW. That does not mean that I control 160 billion dollars.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 02:20 AM
Wierdscience,
Thank you for your correction.

The UAW has been trying for years to organize the japanese transplants with no success.

As a 35 year UAW member, I keep an eye on these things and if someone has something that I may have missed I just want to know about it.

As to the rest of this discussion between mostly you and Lazlo, thats another story for another time.

Brian

lazlo
02-03-2010, 02:26 AM
I am a retired UAW member with 35 years membership.

Yes, that was quite obvious from your previous posts.


The UAW DOES NOT CONTROL THE PENSION FUNDS.
Not at GM. Not at Delphi.
The UAW pension funds are not run like the teamsters.
The teamsters run their pension funds.

The UAW Health Care and Pension Funds are now massive Wall Street Investment vehicles, and the board of directors of both funds are elected members of the UAW. Wall Street is falling all over themselves to win the contracts to manage the funds.

So I repeat my statement -- the UAW controls $150 Billion in investment funds.

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 02:27 AM
The vast majority of what you're calling "entitlements" are Social Security and Medicare, which supports a great many here on this forum. If that's Bleeding Heart Liberalism, sign me up.[QUOTE/]

And it's choking others on this forum who are paying into a system they will never collect from.Nobody asked me if I wanted Social Security,but I get stuck with the bill,16-3/8% of my gross to be exact.

[QUOTE=lazlo]What lower-income Republicans just don't seem to understand is that Wall Street walked away with $7 Trillion dollars in the great Credit Default Swap Ponzi Scheme. That came directly out of your 401K -- it's why people like Dennis had to go back to work from retirement.[QUOTE/]

What generated those default swaps?You don't know or won't admit the answer.

[QUOTE=lazlo]Then, to make things worse, Wall Street convinced Congress (both Presidents, both parties) that they needed another $3 Trillion in Tarp I, Tarp II, the AIG bailout, the Bear-Stearns buyout,... to "fix" the economy.

So yes, Ayn Rand's philosophy of self-interest and greed works well, if you're in the upper 1% of the wealthiest people. I haven't seen my trickle-down yet :)

All anybody heard was CRISIS! CRISIS! and everybody jumped off a cliff.They should have let the banks colapse,they should have let GM and Chrysler fail,they didn't.

Don't worry though,it will happen,it's just this time there won't be any landing.

You'll get that trickle down,only it's probably gonna be your bank account when inflation hits.

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 02:31 AM
I can't wait to see who the United Arab Emirates elects. :rolleyes:

Judging by the $160million in untraceable credit card donations to the DNC last trip you may already know;)

lazlo
02-03-2010, 02:35 AM
They should have let the banks colapse,they should have let GM and Chrysler fail,they didn't.

Everyone agrees on that Darrin. But why do you think Congress from both Parties and two opposing Presidents didn't let them collapse? Perhaps because they're bought and paid for?

Why, when every other banking firm was bailed out, did they let Lehmann Brothers, the largest and oldest investment firm in the US fail? The one odd exception during the whole crisis?

Perhaps because the Secretary of the Treasury, Hank Paulson, was the CEO of Goldman Sachs, who were bitter rivals with Lehman Brothers? Goldman Sachs bought up the remnants of Lehman Brothers for pennies on the dollar.

Yes, unfettered "capitalism" works great :mad:

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 02:47 AM
Wierdscience,
Thank you for your correction.

The UAW has been trying for years to organize the japanese transplants with no success.

As a 35 year UAW member, I keep an eye on these things and if someone has something that I may have missed I just want to know about it.

As to the rest of this discussion between mostly you and Lazlo, thats another story for another time.

Brian

GM huh,you have my condolences,GM isn't looking good at all.I believe it would have been better if GMAC had been spilt off and GM automotive had not been bailed out so soon.I think the bailout stigma played a part in GM's CFC sales being flat,at least that was the feeling on the street here.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 03:04 AM
Wierdscience,

I don't know where "here" is being that you list your location as "North American Union" and the covers a pretty big swath.

But I got that same feeling. Ford seems to have done quite well not taking any bailout money.

I also remember when Chrysler was bailed out in the 70's and came back stronger than ever for decades.

My take on this is that the huge corporations that own/run our government don't like unions for a variety of reasons, some with merit and some without.

They won't be happy until the word union is relegated to history books.

Then we can have a handfull of trillionaire families and the rest of us can live in shacks like most of the world does.

Unions brought us things like health care, pensions, paid vacations, and a host of things most of us take for granted.

Unions are not perfect. I had my differences with mine at times. But I never quit it. I stayed and worked to make it a better organization.

One other thing.

A hundred years from now this won't matter to any of us.

Brian

bborr01
02-03-2010, 03:25 AM
Lazlo,

I'm having a hard time following your posts.

Post #80 - OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

Post #85 - The UAW controls a $54 Billion investment fund

Post #95 - The UAW control the VEBA, which is a $54 Billion investment fund designed to fund retiree health-care costs. The UAW pension fund is worth over $104 Billion. There were comments made last year that the UAW should buy GM, with a market cap of $4 Billion.

Post #100 - The UAW has $160 Billion in Wall Street Investment funds, between VEBA and their pension fund

Post #103 - The UAW Health Care and Pension Funds are now massive Wall Street Investment vehicles, and the board of directors of both funds are elected members of the UAW. Wall Street is falling all over themselves to win the contracts to manage the funds.

So I repeat my statement -- the UAW controls $150 Billion in investment funds.

Brian talking now. 150 billion or 160 billion? What's 10 billion among friends, right?:)

If all of the people on the board of directors of the GM pension fund are UAW members, it's news to me.

Care to name them or give me a link to an official site of the GM pension fund?

I did a little searching and I couldn't find anything on it.

Brian

wierdscience
02-03-2010, 03:44 AM
Wierdscience,

I don't know where "here" is being that you list your location as "North American Union" and the covers a pretty big swath.

But I got that same feeling. Ford seems to have done quite well not taking any bailout money.

I also remember when Chrysler was bailed out in the 70's and came back stronger than ever for decades.

My take on this is that the huge corporations that own/run our government don't like unions for a variety of reasons, some with merit and some without.

They won't be happy until the word union is relegated to history books.

Then we can have a handfull of trillionaire families and the rest of us can live in shacks like most of the world does.

Unions brought us things like health care, pensions, paid vacations, and a host of things most of us take for granted.

Unions are not perfect. I had my differences with mine at times. But I never quit it. I stayed and worked to make it a better organization.

One other thing.

A hundred years from now this won't matter to any of us.

Brian

My own personal feeling is the single biggest killer of Union and non-union jobs has been automation.

I remember an article about GM and body production.The jest of the article was GM's first robotic arm which came in in some year 70's???? and then 20 years later they had 22,000.

The numbers tell the tale,manufacturng jobs are in decline,while productivity is up.

There have been a lot of scape goats over the years,yes greed exists,but so do fear,jealousy and ignorance.

When the Japanese first got a foot hold here I was young,but I also remember the video of they're assembly lines.Lots of shiney yellow robotic arms,meanwhile we still had people climbing in trunks to set windsheilds and people weilding sprayguns on paint lines.Which one looked more like a sweat shop?

See where I'm coming from,they innovated and we didn't,but those "yellow bastard Japs" became the attitude.

I would say following the trend that the UAW will probably go extinct about the same time as a robotic limb reaches the same range of motion as a human being.They just don't have the same needs we do.

Where will we work and who will buy what the machines build?

I think my dad had it right,he said pretty soon all we will do in this country is sell each other insurance and sue each other,sadly I believe he is right.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 04:03 AM
Wierdscience,
Your'e right on.
I remember being in about 3rd or 4th grade (mid 60's) and reading an article in my weekly reader about how this new technology would make it so that machines would do all the work and we could relax all the time.

Sounded great to me.

But at the same time it somehow haunted me.

My dad went to work every day to make money to put food on the table.

Where would he get money for food.

Must have really haunted me to still remember it 40 some years later.

Funny thing is I followed in my dads footsteps and went into toolmaking and built automation for nearly 30 years.

The factory I worked at had pictures of assembly lines (small precision parts) with 20 plus women gaging and hand assembling parts.
They probably put out a couple thousand parts a day.

When I retired 4 years ago we had 1 operator running an assembly line. Probably put out about 15 to 20K parts a day.

The machines didn't take smoke breaks, or call in sick, or need health care, etc. etc.

Sounds like utopia except I still wonder what we will all do for money to put food on the table.

I think your dad was right.

Just need to figure out who has the $$$$$ and sue the crap out of them, right.

Sorry to say, that seems like that is where this country is going.

Brian

chief
02-03-2010, 04:54 AM
Lazlo,
"Low income republicans don't understand", you are a idiot, not to mention a bigot. Low income democrats are smarter? If they are smarter why are they low income. You are a typical liberal.

oldtiffie
02-03-2010, 06:34 AM
Oldtiffie,
I know what you mean about the half life of of these political threads.

YOD,
Sometimes when I feel that I have reached the end of the internet and still have time on my hands, I sit and read threads like this.
Can't seem to help myself.
I also feel an obligation to help balance out the equation between the left and the right. You have probably have already guessed that I lean somewhat left.
I still like to read the opinions of the slightly right and even the very right or left.
I know I am not so smart that I can't learn from those that I don't agree with lockstep.
In fact, that is the beautiful thing about a debate like this one. Everyone gets their say. No turning off the microphone or "sorry, we lost that caller" like on right wing radio.
Don't know about left wing radio, I can't remember ever hearing any.

Ken,
Thanks for your patience with me.

Brian

Brian.

This is what really sprung it all in OZ:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shearers_Strike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_V_McKay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvester_Judgment

http://www.abc.net.au/federation/fedstory/ep3/ep3_events.htm


Its a nice twist here as we just cannot get enough "Tradies" - mines, infrastructure, construction - the list goes on. Wages and conditions vary from good to very good indeed. There are all sorts of training schemes, bonuses and imported trades here - and the shortage is chronic. If wages go up too far - inflation gets a boost. If we don't have the skills we need the economy and efficiency take a hit. Our housing shortages and prices keep going up. Our Central Bank has increased the cash interest rate by 0.75% lately - with more to come - to cool things down.

Our manufacturing industry took a big hit like everywhere else did but a lot got fat and lazy and we had rusty industries hiding behind tariff walls. Many sunk. Many saw the threat - and the opportunities and "went for it". It was not a "love in" at all but Unions and Employers - despite what each had to say while posturing in and for the public - could see the need for a mutual benefit in raising efficiency, production - and wages and conditions.

Both sides have their PR/"spin" merchants but the "good guys" and "$hit-heads " are on both sides but cooler heads sort it out pretty well.

So - we are traveling pretty well in OZ over-all.

Many of our "white collar" and "finance" jobs have been out-sourced to India and the Philippines as have a lot of "Engineering" work and jobs. Other than the "Finance" people (who are unionised) in the Banks the rest were and are not unionised and the low-cost wages for over-seas Engineers and IT people are making it a "buyers market" here in that regard as well as those people here are pretty well all "non Union".

Our unemployment is down to about 5% and falling.

We pretty well depend mostly on China and Asia for our primary income (we are one of the few countries in the "black" in trade with China.

Asia doesn't bother us too much as for all practical purposes given our trade and location, we are part of Asia.

Did I mention too that we have for our nearest neighbour - the country with the world's biggest Islamic population - Indonesia - with whom, despite some differences and "spats" we've had,we get on pretty well with?

Its "different" down south.

We have several elections coming up this year - Federal (House of Representatives and part of the Senate) as well as several at State level.

We have some pretty "willing and vigorous" discussions and differences here - but nowhere near the level of vitriol and personal attacks that there are in the US.

We will just "sit pretty" and watch the circus in the US - which is a shame as despite what some may say - us included - we do think that the average yank is not a bad bloke at all (and that's no small praise here).

Your Old Dog
02-03-2010, 10:43 AM
Lazlo,
"Low income republicans don't understand", you are a idiot, not to mention a bigot. Low income democrats are smarter? If they are smarter why are they low income. You are a typical liberal.

Lighten up son! No need to blow a gasket. There is a lot to be learned in these discussions but not with tough talk.

bborr01
02-03-2010, 03:13 PM
Lazlo,

I'm having a hard time following your posts.

Post #80 - OK that the United Auto Workers (who control billions of dollars in pension funds) directly fund political candidates?

Post #85 - The UAW controls a $54 Billion investment fund

Post #95 - The UAW control the VEBA, which is a $54 Billion investment fund designed to fund retiree health-care costs. The UAW pension fund is worth over $104 Billion. There were comments made last year that the UAW should buy GM, with a market cap of $4 Billion.

Post #100 - The UAW has $160 Billion in Wall Street Investment funds, between VEBA and their pension fund

Post #103 - The UAW Health Care and Pension Funds are now massive Wall Street Investment vehicles, and the board of directors of both funds are elected members of the UAW. Wall Street is falling all over themselves to win the contracts to manage the funds.

So I repeat my statement -- the UAW controls $150 Billion in investment funds.

Brian talking now. 150 billion or 160 billion? What's 10 billion among friends, right?:)

If all of the people on the board of directors of the GM pension fund are UAW members, it's news to me.

Care to name them or give me a link to an official site of the GM pension fund?

I did a little searching and I couldn't find anything on it.

Brian

The gm pension fund board members are all UAW members?

Once again, who are they?

Brian

oldtiffie
02-04-2010, 02:35 AM
The gm pension fund board members are all UAW members?

Once again, who are they?

Brian

The silence is deafening.

lazlo
02-04-2010, 11:26 AM
The silence is deafening.

He wants me to Google the board members of the UAW pension fund for him so he can make some oblique point about how the UAW doesn't really wield $160 Billion in investment funds?

Sorry, no thanks.

Your Old Dog
02-04-2010, 06:52 PM
If you would like to donate to the UAW Pension Fund you can do so at the bottom left corner of the page :D

http://www.knowyourpension.org/pensions/UAWpensions/UAW_pension_qa_2.aspx

JCHannum
02-04-2010, 08:43 PM
If you would like to donate to the UAW Pension Fund you can do so at the bottom left corner of the page :D

I already did when O gave them my preferred stock.

Mad Scientist
02-04-2010, 09:22 PM
It is not a Bush-Obama problem , it doesn't matter who is in office , it is too much government and too much government waste.

Steve

Ah someone who understands what is really going on.
It is not just a matter of going out and waving your red or blue flag, bur rather going out and waving your "don't tread on me flag".

JoeFin
02-04-2010, 11:42 PM
But why do you think Congress from both Parties and two opposing Presidents didn't let them collapse? Perhaps because they're bought and paid for?

Anyone wondering the TRUE answer to that question needs to go back to school

Anyone care to guess the dollar amount of Mortgage Derivatives that were being held by foreign countries as their currency reserves.

What the REAL QUESTION here should be - "During the discussions held by the US Congress and Senate in March of 2007 of pending Mortgage Crisis, how many of those banking officials KNEW the dollar amount of the Credit Default Swaps sold on those Mortgage Derivatives?

It would have cost ONLY $270Billion to buy out all the bad Home Loans, but it cost over $1.2Trillion to bailout the Corporations that were about to default on the Credit Default Swaps.

You would have thought at least 1 Wall St. Trader would have stepped forward to say "Hey we sold $300Billion of Mortgage Derivatives to China alone for their National Reserve. Countries all over the World are holding them as Currency Reserves" if we allow the Mortgages to fail it will trigger........."

But NO...

All we heard was "I don't want to bail out the Speculators"

mconlee
02-05-2010, 12:55 PM
[QUOTE=wierdscience]
AMD flew Obama all over Illinois during his run for senate after he won he pushed ethanol for all it was worth.

i believe your talking about ADM not AMD

AMD - Advanced Micro Devices - makes electronic chips, and cpu chips for computers.

ADM - basically a lobbying group for corn production.

bborr01
02-05-2010, 05:48 PM
He wants me to Google the board members of the UAW pension fund for him so he can make some oblique point about how the UAW doesn't really wield $160 Billion in investment funds?

Sorry, no thanks.

Lazlo,

You are so very wrong on that.

I am just asking you to back up what you said.

I would also like to let you in on a few words that I learned to say many years ago that can set you free and gain the respect of those around you.

The words are "I WAS WRONG".

Other forms are "I STAND CORRECTED" and "I MIS-SPOKE"

Where I come from it would be said that you don't know your a$$ from a hole in the ground.

Brian

Edit: I also don't know why you would need to google something that you already seem to know as fact.

Just trying to keep things factual.

lazlo
02-05-2010, 08:12 PM
Where I come from it would be said that you don't know your a$$ from a hole in the ground.

Lol! I've been wrong before, and have no problem with admitting it.

Unfortunately, this is not one of those times :)

As a UAW member, you're surely aware that as part of the Big 3 reorganization last year, the UAW healthcare fund has been converted into a massive $56 Billion investment fund that the UAW is shopping on Wall Street. That's in addition to the $104 Billion UAW pension fund, which includes a staggered payout orchestrated by Obama in which the UAW will own 55% of Chrysler.

Do you need help with the math?

oldtiffie
02-05-2010, 10:40 PM
Lazlo.

I'd be interested to see the "Google" and "other" links to support and refute those claims as well - to do a comparison.

Here is a start of how "Union" Superannuation (here ~ "Pension" in the US) is organised and run here in OZ:
http://www.memberconnect.com.au/actusupersite/default.aspx

http://www.memberconnect.com.au/ACTUSuperSite/AboutSuper/FeaturesOfIndustrySuperFunds.aspx

http://www.memberconnect.com.au/Images/Dynamic/attachments/4134/ISN%200222%20Media%20Kit_4_short%20history_Dec2008 .pdf

http://www.memberconnect.com.au/ACTUSuperSite/IndustryFundNetwork/IndustrySuperNetwork.aspx

http://www.memberconnect.com.au/ACTUSuperSite/IndustryFundNetwork/MembersEquity/MembersEquityBank.aspx

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=union+superannuation+funds+australia&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=union+superannuation+funds+australia&fp=2bcf0a553a95b437

etc.

wierdscience
02-06-2010, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE=wierdscience]
AMD flew Obama all over Illinois during his run for senate after he won he pushed ethanol for all it was worth.

i believe your talking about ADM not AMD

AMD - Advanced Micro Devices - makes electronic chips, and cpu chips for computers.

ADM - basically a lobbying group for corn production.

Yup,hamfisted typing.