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AlexK
02-01-2010, 04:09 PM
I've just got my brand new "Made in China" 12x36 lathe and currently in the process of setting it up.

I have a surface grinder and wonder if any parts of my lathe will benefit from some surface grinding. My surface grinder magnet chuck is only 10"x5" so I am limited to relatively small parts.

Tony Ennis
02-01-2010, 04:16 PM
I would first determine which parts, if any, require improvement.

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 04:19 PM
I have a Chinese 12x36 lathe and there is nothing to my unpracticed eye that looks like I could improve it.

OK, there are a few clunky bits, for instance the chunk of metal that clamps the tail stock is rather roughly formed and maybe a bit of attention there would make it feel 'nicer' when moving the tail stock.

radkins
02-01-2010, 04:21 PM
One thing you need to do for SURE is drain the oil and clean the metal chips out of the gear boxes! Other than that I found nothing but just a few adjustments that needed to be made, the adjusting and check procedures were in the manual (HF 14X40). Others had warned me about the chips in the gear boxes and sure enough when I drained the oil and looked inside it was scary what they had left in there! One more thing I did was to take the feed screw out of the cross slide and deburr it, sure made manual feeding smoother.

MuellerNick
02-01-2010, 04:23 PM
No matter how much time you invest into these re-cast wogs, it will always be what it wonce was: A wobbling wog!
It's best to accept the quality you bought and use the lathe as is. As soon as you start improving it, you're lost.


Nick

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 04:31 PM
No matter how much time you invest into these re-cast wogs, it will always be what it wonce was: A wobbling wog!
It's best to accept the quality you bought and use the lathe as is. As soon as you start improving it, you're lost.


Nick

Excellent advice Nick, save those renovation efforts for the worn out lathe your grandfather made wagon axles on.

RB211
02-01-2010, 04:34 PM
Excellent advice Nick, save those renovation efforts for the worn out lathe your grandfather made wagon axles on.

No No... You can simply just buy a new Emco V14 or Wabeco 6000e, just take out a 2nd mortgage.

miker
02-01-2010, 04:35 PM
As already stated, run it for a while first and you may be pleasently surprised!

The odd oil leak to be tracked down, Gibs to be tightened and Tailstock to be aligned.

Check the gears inside the big end cover. some may need a washer behind or a mounting bracket adjusted to make them mesh a bit better.

Remove and replace the supplied chucks a few times to check that the Camlocks operate ok. Also don't to forget mounting and removing the Face Plate. I had to wind one of the Camlock pins in or out part of a turn to make it attach properly.

Sometimes the cross slide and Top slide locking screw might just be a set screw that requires an Allan Key.
Look at replacing these with a screw with a head or knob you can grab hold of.

All little stuff!

Do run the machine in all speeds in both forward and reverse
then change the oil in the Headstock. You may be surprised at the crap that comes out in that old oil:)

The more you put it through it's paces you will see if anything is amiss.

Enjoy. How about a picture???

Rgds

MuellerNick
02-01-2010, 04:45 PM
Excellent advice Nick, save those renovation efforts for the worn out lathe your grandfather made wagon axles on.

You can keep your sarcasm!
I can show you photos of fitting or gliding surfaces that were chiseled, or, as "they" call it, scraped. They'll make you *cry*!
I had two "Optimum D330 * 1000" lathes (and still have one). I have taken it apart completely only to discover that there was no single piece that was OK. Faked "precision"-bearings, misaligned spindle-bores, rough surfaces, casting-sand in the gearbox that had to be removed with the power washer and a chisel, ...
I've also seen other Chinese mills and helped to improve them. They are not worth the efford.

Buy some old US iron (or British, Swiss, or German) and repair that. The result is a lathe, not a wog.


Nick

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 04:56 PM
If it is the same as mine (generic number cq6230a-1) there are a few things that you might like to attend to.

In addition to the rough casting used to clamp the tail stock there is an oil leak in the apron you might be able to fix. The bracket that holds the forward/stop/reverse handle assembly is fixed to the saddle with two bolts that are tapped into the sadle gear box. The holes go all the way through and oil seeps out the threads.

If you wind the cross slide fully over you will reveal a short section of the screw which goes through a hole into the saddle gear box. If you use flood coolant it will find its way under the cross slide and some will get into the saddle gear box via this hole. I have not done anything yet but I am thinking of packing this hole with felt.

The chip tray has no deliberate depression towards the drain so coolant tends to pond on the tray. I fixed mine by placing a 4x2 over the drain hole and jacking against the rafters. This deformed the tray enough to get reasonable drainage.

The leg at the tail stock end has no provision for coolant to drain away if any gets in there.

No doubt there are a few other things that could be attended to but all-in-all I am very pleased with this lathe, one years ownership.

gnm109
02-01-2010, 04:56 PM
I feel so dirty what with my owning a Chinese "Wog". (What's a Wog?) I only looked at junky old American lathes for five years before I was forced to break down and go Asian.

That was 15 years ago and it's still running. Where did I go wrong?

MuellerNick
02-01-2010, 05:06 PM
(What's a Wog?)

That Chinese cooking bowl. Seems it has a different name over here. Couldn't find a translation for it.


That was 15 years ago and it's still running. Where did I go wrong?

Maybe it was made in Taiwan, not China?


Nick

Toolguy
02-01-2010, 05:09 PM
I think you are referring to a "wok".

Richard-TX
02-01-2010, 05:12 PM
I feel so dirty what with my owning a Chinese "Wog". (What's a Wog?) I only looked at junky old American lathes for five years before I was forced to break down and go Asian.

That was 15 years ago and it's still running. Where did I go wrong?

You didn't go wrong. As far as I am concerned there are no good US made lathes left. Not in my area anyway. I looked at old used lathes for a few years and all I saw was stuff that should have been scrapped. I went with an import. No regrets here.

Nothing is more miserable than trying to do precison work on a worn out lathe.

MuellerNick
02-01-2010, 05:16 PM
Ooops! Sorry! "wok" That's it, but I wouldn't try to use it as a lathe anyhow.


Nick

saltmine
02-01-2010, 06:15 PM
Aside from a thorough flushing to get the chips out, and resetting ALL of the gibs and sliding surfaces, everything else worked out just fine.

Later on, I did fabricate a cam-lock tailstock clamp, and bought a Phase II toolholder. Before I logged on today, I had to cut and true the live center that came with the lathe.

Carld
02-01-2010, 06:24 PM
MuellerNick, I think The Artful Bodger was being factious with his statement.

RB211
02-01-2010, 06:40 PM
Out of all the lathes I've had and used, I think my 1941 South Bend had a wobbly wog spindle. At some point in it's life, it became slightly bent. My 8x14 has suited me well. Only problem I have with my 8x14 and my X3 is that it they are not worth the cost to ship them "effortlessly" to California...

MuellerNick
02-01-2010, 06:57 PM
The Artful Bodger was being factious with his statement.

Factious?
About a month ago a friend asked me to help him look at a lathe. A Boley 5LZ. Maybe 40 years old. The seller asked ... well ... he got 900.- EUR. If he wouldn't have been a friend, I would have paid more to make it mine. Needs some rework, mostly cosmetic. Clearly better -without doing anything- than any Chinese engineering at that size with double the price and 1/3 of weight.
Someone else bought a lathe in England (forgot the brand) from a dealer. Good price, good condition. Cheaper and better than a new wok-lathe.

With all the economic troubles all over you should get good tools for a low price.

Me:
Shaper (Langen & Geilen) 650mm stroke, incl. transport 600.- EUR
Shaper (Klopp) 375mm stroke, free transport 400.- EUR
Mill (MAHO 700 C, broken CNC) 1800.- EUR
T&C grinder (Walter 3CY, *excellent* condition) 3000.- EUR
Lathe-bit grinder (REMA, double-headed, with oscillating disks, 3 diamond wheels), incl. transport 220.- EUR

Now, I'm just waiting for a decent lathe ...


Nick

aboard_epsilon
02-01-2010, 07:08 PM
no mention of the Klaiber

how are you getting on with it

all the best.markj

Optics Curmudgeon
02-01-2010, 07:15 PM
Nick

I think you may have made a wrong turn on the information superhighway, this might be the exit you actually wanted: www.practicalmachinist.com.

Joe

MotorradMike
02-01-2010, 07:19 PM
I didn't want a chicom lathe but I ended up with this (http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=B2227L) one because it looked pretty good and it only cost $1,000.

I'm tickled pink with it!

Sure it's obviously Chinese and I don't trust the witness marks but I use the scales on the handles and things work out. It turns stainless to a very nice finish. I expected to be able to turn brass and Delrin OK and maybe C12L14 if I was careful but nothing like this.
I drained the oil and hunted around for dead squirrels etc. but I think I just wasted some oil.

Remember Jap crap?
Not true anymore, and now the Chinese guys have figgerred it out too.

Now I want a mill. Used American iron isn't that easy to come by.
BusyBee has a nice knee mill for ~$2,000.

I will get one when I figger out how to get it in the shop.


Mike

RB211
02-01-2010, 07:28 PM
I already know which lathe I am buying next, as soon as I get settled down here...
http://precisionmatthews.com/PM1127VFLathe.html

Kibby
02-01-2010, 07:32 PM
Is it true that South Bend was purchased by Grizzly? There seems to be a rennaissance going on at SB... maybe Grizzly is injecting some money into it? grizzly is a forward-thinking company, but I can't see how revitalizing SB will help their bottom line. Are they tired of making 200% profit on the imported crap?

FWIW, if I get a new lathe, and its a chicom cheapie, I will be completely tearing it down and doing the "fluff and buff". There won't be anything on that machine that won't be smoothed and polished and trammed and gauged, and I won't rest until its done.

Still, I think I would be better off just spending the extra green and get a decent machine to start with. :(

radkins
02-01-2010, 07:47 PM
I set my up 14X40 Chinese lathe a year ago and I have been happily running it with zero problems since! For less than $2800 I had a brand new lathe set up and running not an old worn out machine that would have taken the year to rebuild and the rebuild likely would have cost, in addition to whatever purchase price, more than I paid for the Chinese machine. Seems that most of the complaints about these Chinese machines come from people who do not own them? :confused:

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 08:11 PM
We got lotsa da wogs here in OZ.

Most will do you a good turn - and not a lathe in sight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog

Lottsa chinks too. Generally pretty good citizens too - and not a lathe in sight there either. Lottsa chink woks too - work good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wok

Lots of wankers and $hit-heads here too (mostly "old (OZ) stock") - more of them on the lathe.

Did I mention NZ-ers ("Kiwi's") and UK-landers (from UK) aka "Poms". Lottsa them too.

We are a polyglot lot here and by and large get on pretty well and just "live and let live".

As we make very few - if any - machines for HSM-ers, we aren't too concerned about where our stuff comes from. There is some old(er) "made in USA/UK" stuff but little if any new.

Dogs like good lathes too (lathe-dogs?). Their motto seems to be "one good turn deserves another".

We just sit around under our shade tree and see what (or who) turns up - lathe optional.

Do Chinese lathes go "wok, wok wok etc.".

They don't?

Odd that.

What about lathes that go "bonk, bonk, bonk"? The blond down the road has one and she will put on a turn for her (many) "Friends" - so I am led to believe. I don't really know if she has a lathe but - so I'm told - she has put a few through the mill. Wasn't my Chinese 3-in-1 though - shame about that.

I could not care at all where a machine originates from - as long as it works OK it is OK.

aboard_epsilon
02-01-2010, 08:17 PM
I set my up 14X40 Chinese lathe a year ago and I have been happily running it with zero problems since! For less than $2800 I had a brand new lathe set up and running not an old worn out machine that would have taken the year to rebuild and the rebuild likely would have cost, in addition to whatever purchase price, more than I paid for the Chinese machine. Seems that most of the complaints about these Chinese machines come from people who do not own them? :confused:

i don't have a Chinese machine ..and I'm not complaining about them.

because

i understand why you Americans have to buy them, because your own second hand American machines are over priced .

In the UK .ours are not ...so we don't even have to think that way .

it would be a stupid man in the UK, who bought Chinese over English.

especially since you can pick up a tool room lathe here, usually for under 1000....and a long way off worn out....and plenty available ..plenty to choose from.

its probably the same in nicks country....only he doesn't realise the dilemma you are in .

if i lived in USA......i would probably own a new Chinese lathe rather than pay stupid prices for a worn out American lathe

All the best.markj

radkins
02-01-2010, 08:48 PM
i don't have a Chinese machine ..and I'm not complaining about them.

because

i understand why you Americans have to buy them, because your own second hand American machines are over priced .

In the UK .ours are not ...so we don't even have to think that way .

it would be a stupid man in the UK, who bought Chinese over English.

especially since you can pick up a tool room lathe here, usually for under 1000....and a long way off worn out....and plenty available ..plenty to choose from.

its probably the same in nicks country....only he doesn't realise the dilemma you are in .

if i lived in USA......i would probably own a new Chinese lathe rather than pay stupid prices for a worn out American lathe

All the best.markj


Exactly my point! I too would prefer an old U.S. or European machine and I looked long and hard for one before giving up. I keep hearing all these fine stories about good used machines here for a decent price but everything I looked at was in dire need of extensive rebuild and/or scary priced! The problem seems to be the recent surge in interest in these machines and the demand is driving up the price. While I am sure there are deals to be found here I am afraid the situation you enjoy there is just a fading memory here.:(

Black_Moons
02-01-2010, 09:09 PM
Owner of 12x36" lathe, only problem I found was a small defect in the casting that let oil leak out the quick change gearbox through a roll pin... Injecting the roll pin with mass amounts of silicon gasket maker has fixed it. Less hassel then trying to get the casting replaced/fixed..

Well, other then the poor excuse for crude unfiltered sand filled oil they filled it up with to ship with..

IMO you should: Drain the gearboxes, sweep for landmines (well, swaff/sand), then refill, then run for 1/2 hour in every gear (starting at slowest and working your way up) and then in reverse, then refill your spindle gearbox (the rest are low RPM and probley won't wear much period so they are ok now) to flush the last of the crap and new burrs out.

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 09:12 PM
I think there must be something wrong with my 12x36 product of the Peoples Republic of China. I have changed the oil taking off the lid and searching for sand but not a grain to be seen.

Can I use just ordinary sand and how much should I put in the main gearbox?

chrisfournier
02-01-2010, 09:17 PM
...I had the perfect lathe, I check out his post and find out that I could have had a wok lathe.

Now this may not be as bad as I thought if it is a lathe used to make woks; as Nick so graciously points out I don't want that. Appreciated mate.

But is Nick in fact referring to a combination machine: "The Wok/Lathe"? If this is the case not only would my crappy Asian lathe now suck but why on Earth would I ever look at a Hardinge or Monarch with lust again? I mean they just turn metal.

But can you even imagine a wok/lathe? It's late at night, you get the munchies but the take outs are all closed and you've got hours of machining ahead of you. No worries mate, fire up your wok/lathe! In minutes you can turn a bushing AND make up a batch of chicken balls. So what you say? How about getting that knurling operation finished while you make up a delicious dish of ginger garlic scallops and snow peas? I mean thinking about "spring rolls" has got my wallet out.

Only one question left for Nick. What kind of oil should I use in my wok/lathe?

Tony Ennis
02-01-2010, 09:21 PM
Machining makes me hungry.

gwilson
02-01-2010, 09:23 PM
My 16" X 40" Grizzly is very accurate,and no sand at all. I have had it since 1986. I don't recommend it for factory production,but for my own use it has been fine.

I also have a Hardinge HLVH which obviously is a much better lathe,but now they cost over $50,000.00,and you have to wait until they get 10(?) orders.

My Grizzly only cost $3500.00 when I bought it. The only unsuitable thing about it was the 3 jaw chuck,which ran out .003",which still seems to be the standard for Chinese chucks. Mine was Taiwan,BTW.

gwilson
02-01-2010, 09:26 PM
I seem to have lost my post about WOGS. It means "worker on government service" Name came about in building the Suez Canal when many locals were hired.

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 09:32 PM
I seem to have lost my post about WOGS. It means "worker on government service" Name came about in building the Suez Canal when many locals were hired.


Dang! Here I was thinking the Suez Canal was built by The Suez Canal Company!:confused:

gwilson
02-01-2010, 09:35 PM
When ever anything large is built,whoever contracts the work is bound to hire local grunt labor.

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 09:41 PM
When ever anything large is built,whoever contracts the work is bound to hire local grunt labor.

Of course that is true but they would not be "workers on government service" now would they?

radkins
02-01-2010, 09:44 PM
Can I use just ordinary sand and how much should I put in the main gearbox?











It is supposed to be some kind of red looking crap but I think about a teaspoonful will be about right since that's about what was included with mine from the factory!:eek:

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 09:49 PM
It is supposed to be some kind of red looking crap but I think about a teaspoonful will be about right since that's about what was included with mine from the factory!:eek:


Thanks, I will send the dog down to the beach and he will bring back enough.

gnm109
02-01-2010, 09:49 PM
I think there must be something wrong with my 12x36 product of the Peoples Republic of China. I have changed the oil taking off the lid and searching for sand but not a grain to be seen.

Can I use just ordinary sand and how much should I put in the main gearbox?


I would use copper slag if I were going to do something like that.....just kidding.

When I got my 1994 Enco 13 X 40 in the crate in 1994, I spent a couple of days preparing it for use, removing grease, checking this and that. I removed the gear box cover to inspect inside and there was no sand. I wonder if they left it out? LOL.

.

Toolguy
02-01-2010, 09:49 PM
With the WokLathe you need only get a little fish oil from the tap on the headstock drain. Very handy for those late night Asian dumplings or stir fry.
A chip hook works nicely to stir things around. You can probably get more fish oil for the headstock fairly cheap at the local Asian market. You can serve up your tasty cuisine on old hubcaps with some tongs from the heat treat oven.;)

lakeside53
02-01-2010, 09:50 PM
I seem to have lost my post about WOGS. It means "worker on government service" Name came about in building the Suez Canal when many locals were hired.


And... also a derogatory term for a person of color... "Western Oriented Gentleman". Commonly used by the British in many of their colonies.

chrisfournier
02-01-2010, 10:00 PM
Thank you for your culinary insight Tool Guy. Dim sum it is!

aboard_epsilon
02-01-2010, 10:10 PM
And... also a derogatory term for a person of color... "Western Oriented Gentleman". Commonly used by the British in many of their colonies.

i thought it came from the word "golliwog"...that's were the brits would have got it from .

all the best.markj

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by The Artful Bodger
I think there must be something wrong with my 12x36 product of the Peoples Republic of China. I have changed the oil taking off the lid and searching for sand but not a grain to be seen.

Can I use just ordinary sand and how much should I put in the main gearbox?
Same here Bodger.

Should I get a shovel-ful of gravel from drive-way and put it in?

I think I will - and so should you as we "southers" can't be seen to be not in lock-step with our "meric'n cuzzinz" who are having such trubblz.

Why should we miss out on the fun of never-ending grizzling?

We've got "rights" and "entitlements" too.

(Now where have I heard that recently?)

I think I've solved why there wasn't any grit-'n'-stuff in my mills and lathe etc. I reckon that as we are 180 degrees out of synch with "them up there" as we are "up-side down" to them and that all the grit-'n'-$hit was actually resting on the under-side of the gear-box covers/tops - with the oil - and it all drained out with a "whoosh" when we lifted - sorry - dropped - the cover and out it all came. All over the bloody roof "under-side" - with all the shop-swarf. I am quite surprised that the OZ concrete "floor" slab is holding my machines up there so well. Its no wonder the oil-guage glasses didn't make sense.

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by lakeside53
And... also a derogatory term for a person of color... "Western Oriented Gentleman". Commonly used by the British in many of their colonies.


i thought it came from the word "golliwog"...that's were the brits would have got it from .

all the best.markj

Mark,

you've been seen sneaking off to read your vast collection of "Noddy" books - again - haven't you?

Shame on you.

They are sacred here - as they are the Shop Bible - nothing is done without reference to them.

But shhhhh - "Big Ears" is listening.

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 10:21 PM
Should I get a shovel-ful of gravel from drive-way and put it in?

Have you got that red gravel on your drive-way? That should be ideal.:)

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 10:31 PM
I would use copper slag if I were going to do something like that.....just kidding.

When I got my 1994 Enco 13 X 40 in the crate in 1994, I spent a couple of days preparing it for use, removing grease, checking this and that. I removed the gear box cover to inspect inside and there was no sand. I wonder if they left it out? LOL.

.

There is a good basis for a conspiracy theory gnm109. You've obviously been "selected" for special treatment by "dark forces".

Might be because of your legal back-ground. Perhaps a shovel or two of the "grounds" into your gear-box/es will suffice and right the wrong in this clear-cut "tort" and "discrimination" issue.

Is not having grounds in your gear-box sufficient grounds for an "action"?

Are the coffee grounds at Gloria Jeans and better than those from "Maccas"?

You may be in dire peril of being banished to "down south" with us from OZ and NZ.

A fate worse than death.

Is putting that sand in a friends gear-box an excellent example of "the gift that keeps on giving"?

If it is - we demand that we be treated equally "down south".

oldtiffie
02-01-2010, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
Should I get a shovel-ful of gravel from drive-way and put it in?


Have you got that red gravel on your drive-way? That should be ideal.:)

Hmmm.

Dunno Bodger.

As it is a well-known fact (it certainly is in NZ) that we noisy ba$tards in OZ can't tell crap (being polite here) from clay, and that Kiwi's certainly can (ask any of 'em here!!!), can I get one of youse mob to sort it out for me - preferably before we trash you - again - in our next game (war??) on the sporting field?

My machine gear-boxes are in need of such early attention.

Much grass - aka mucho gratias.

The Artful Bodger
02-01-2010, 10:42 PM
:) :) :) :)

tdkkart
02-02-2010, 12:59 AM
You fella's do know you're doing wrong by removing the "sand" from the gearboxes?? Never heard of lapping compound?? Run it for awhile and let the lapping compound work the gears for awhile, you'll have a quiet smooth running lathe in no time.

Yes, there are those pristine $1500 10EE lathes out there. The problem is you have to sort through mountains of questionable $5000 units, and a few probably even more questionable $20,000 ones to get to them.
How much traveling/searching time does the average person have before they're too old to use the lathe they've fruitlessly searched for??

Yes, I know the difference between good and bad in lathes, I swing between an Atlas at home and a 10EE at work every day.

Where'd that Nick guy go anyway?? He seems to have left the room??

J Tiers
02-02-2010, 12:59 AM
Bunch of hogwash.

You have a lathe, use the thing, and see if it has any defect that you would like to fix. then fix those.

Cast iron is cast iron (well almost) and the beginning of the decent usable cheap oriental machines is at the 12" and 14" machines........ At least you haven't got one of the 6" machines on stilts that are called 9 x 20 lathes.

In fact, unless you are sufficiently experienced to NOT have asked the question about what to improve, you are better off NOT touching it other than to use it.

I will guarantee that it has fit and finish issues. Why not? Cheapo american lathes like Southbend, Atlas, Logan did also....... And people like them fine. When those cheap american machines were new and still in production, folks who were used to working with 'real" lathes used to call them derogatory names like "little chatterboxes" etc.....

But none of the issues need to bother you now that you HAVE it, just use it. People have used worse among the cheapo american lathes. You can do perfectly good work with that.

The Artful Bodger
02-02-2010, 01:26 AM
J Tiers, good words.

My 12x36 is the first lathe I have ever owned, in fact it is practically the first lathe I have ever been in the same room with and as far as I can tell I like it just fine and I think any other newbies would too.

gearedloco
02-02-2010, 02:14 AM
Thank you for your culinary insight Tool Guy. Dim sum it is!

"Dim sum?" Are the products and quotients also dim? Sounds like you need new batteries in your calculator! Which may well need it's gibs adjusted too.

Please excuse me as I gotta go re-bush the muffler bearings on my Japanese rice wagon.

-bill

MuellerNick
02-02-2010, 03:19 AM
no mention of the Klaiber

I intend to sell it. The Walter 3CY is a much better replacement.
At least, the Klaiber was my introduction to scraping.

Nick

gnm109
02-02-2010, 03:47 AM
There is a good basis for a conspiracy theory gnm109. You've obviously been "selected" for special treatment by "dark forces".

Might be because of your legal back-ground. Perhaps a shovel or two of the "grounds" into your gear-box/es will suffice and right the wrong in this clear-cut "tort" and "discrimination" issue.

Is not having grounds in your gear-box sufficient grounds for an "action"?

Are the coffee grounds at Gloria Jeans and better than those from "Maccas"?

You may be in dire peril of being banished to "down south" with us from OZ and NZ.

A fate worse than death.

Is putting that sand in a friends gear-box an excellent example of "the gift that keeps on giving"?

If it is - we demand that we be treated equally "down south".


It's clearly a conspiracy. By omitting the sand, knowing that I would miss it, the
builders of the lathe intended to inflict emotional distress. I shall contact a Barrister forthwith. (That means post-haste)

As to putting the sand in a friend's gear box, "that would be the grit that keeps on grinding." It's definitely actionable, too.

I'd like to visit NZ and OZ sometime. It would be interesting, for sure.

MuellerNick
02-02-2010, 03:59 AM
I'm really sorry that some of you guys didn't find sand in your gearboxes. Seems to be an enhancement of the last 5 years or so.
Or maybe you counld't find it because of the pinks shades you are wearing. ;)
Both of my Chinese lathes had sand in them, and I have heared of enough others that it seems to be no exception or bad luck I had.
If you are completely happy when your lathe is making noise and chips, then stay with the Woks. But don't expect precision and repeatability with your work.

I'd like to know who of you has really analized his lathe. That means measured the geometry, had a look at how surfaces match, etc.

I for example had a precision bearing marked "P5" let checked on a Mitutoyo measuring machine (1m). The bore was bell-shaped and off 0,015mm. Also the surface was to rough (forgot the value). It simply was a fake. But anyhow, the importer named it "precision bearing". He refused to replace them, so I had to buy two of them for 300.- EUR. I can continue that list until disbelief. Tailstock 0,1mm too high, the lower back guide of the bed not ground but only milled, etc, etc...

You have to understand how they work to get those lathes out of the factory and to make them look acceptable. For example, all scraped surfaces are scraped hollow, so that they do have 4 points that actually have contact. Then, it only takes 10 minutes of scraping to get the alignment. And you'll get wear!
Tapered gibs are all bent by intention to hide that the taper is wrong and that they are not scraped in.
If you accept that, its OK. But don't call that quality!


Nick

The Artful Bodger
02-02-2010, 04:07 AM
Nick, I can put a bit of rusty old steel in my lathe and it comes out 'round', what more could a country boy want?

MuellerNick
02-02-2010, 04:37 AM
Nick, I can put a bit of rusty old steel in my lathe and it comes out 'round', what more could a country boy want?

My fault! I thought we were talking about a lathe, not a round-making-device. ;)

Now, I'll spend some time with my circular-spark-generator (AKA cylindrical grinder) ...


Nick

RB211
02-02-2010, 05:20 AM
My fault! I thought we were talking about a lathe, not a round-making-device. ;)

Now, I'll spend some time with my circular-spark-generator (AKA cylindrical grinder) ...


Nick

Damn, the best lathe is one you build yourself.. Only way to know for sure!

GKman
02-02-2010, 09:38 AM
With a land area of 2,700,000 square miles, a population of 1.3 billion and GDP of $4.911 trillion, it's easy to see why every single machine tool they ever ship will be built to the exact same standards. So if your uncle's neighbor heard about a guy that got Chineese bench vice for $13.95 in 1985 that broke the first time he used it, you can bet your new lathe will too. What's so hard to understand about that?

chrisfournier
02-02-2010, 11:17 AM
With a land area of 2,700,000 square miles, a population of 1.3 billion and GDP of $4.911 trillion, it's easy to see why every single machine tool they ever ship will be built to the exact same standards. So if your uncle's neighbor heard about a guy that got Chineese bench vice for $13.95 in 1985 that broke the first time he used it, you can bet your new lathe will too. What's so hard to understand about that?

Please explain. Geography, GDP, population and a dated insignificant random sample of one unit and you can ascertain the quality of the entire output of the above?

MuellerNick
02-02-2010, 12:46 PM
and you can ascertain the quality of the entire output of the above?

NO! I think he meant it different:
You have to buy a lot, if not every single piece of equipment you'll need in your live, to find out about their quality.
When you're through with that you'll
a) think their quality is bad, but getting better
b) discover that every year, things from China get more expensive
c) the company you work for was bought by Chinese
d) your country is second place after Africa for low labour costs

re d)
The region of cheap labour is moving -more or less- from west to east and around the globe. It was (reverse direction) USA-Europe-Russia-China.
Luckily, that will take a few decades or centuries. :)


Nick

Malc-Y
02-02-2010, 12:58 PM
It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, at the end of the day it is still a turd!

Malc. :cool:

Tony Ennis
02-02-2010, 01:30 PM
Then don't polish it :-)

GKman
02-02-2010, 06:04 PM
I for example had a precision bearing marked "P5" let checked on a Mitutoyo measuring machine (1m). The bore was bell-shaped and off 0,015mm. Also the surface was to rough (forgot the value). It simply was a fake. But anyhow, the importer named it "precision bearing". He refused to replace them, so I had to buy two of them for 300.- EUR. I can continue that list until disbelief. Tailstock 0,1mm too high, the lower back guide of the bed not ground but only milled, etc, etc...

Nick

Maybe you could post some examples of the work you have produced after all of your hard work and expense tuning this unit to your specifications. Must really be something. Sure others would like a peek, too.

The Artful Bodger
02-02-2010, 06:24 PM
Sure others would like a peek, too.

I fear I am not worthy!:rolleyes:

.RC.
02-02-2010, 07:05 PM
I have discovered an amazing way to turn a new asian lathe into a good ole American lathe...

1. Buy your lathe

2. take your angle grinder and grind the ways so they are worn out.

3. extend the tailstock quill and grab some sandpaper and sand the quill down so it is a sloppy fit in the quill housing.

4. put some sand in the headstock and run the machine to wear out the internals

By this stage you should have what would be the average US made lathe.. Something clapped out and really only good for the melting pot...

Sorry gents but excellent condition US made manual lathes are pretty rare to find these days as the newest ones are decades old...

J Tiers
02-02-2010, 09:43 PM
Sorry gents but excellent condition US made manual lathes are pretty rare to find these days as the newest ones are decades old...

Well just as the other stuff is hogwash, so is this "emanation".

Apparently SOME folks have "analized" a chinese lathe*... they think it is a piece of $hit.

In the real world, though, there are plenty of US made machines that are not 'fit only for the melting pot"........... The idea that they are all worn out and junk is just as closed-minded, jingoistic, and as totally unthinking as the idea that every chinese lathe is 'crap". But not all US machines were ever pure goodness embodied in iron..... no more than the chinese machines.

Sorry folks, but many of the US machines you think are so great were cheaply made to a price point in their day.......... Just like the chinese machines.

And the chinese machines are typically based on or copied from the design of the typical US machine......... So if they are such crap, what does that say about the US machines they were copied from?

Every machine is individual..... the chinese machines are more variable, even for the same model, and are available in different grades, depending on what you will pay for.

if you buy to a price only, as I assume HF does, you get the cheapest of everything. Cheap, maybe counterfeit, bearings, no fitting, slapdash paint, and re-worked parts.**

If you want to pay for quality, that is available for more money..... Surprise!

Not everything chinese shows up at the HF (the "dollar store").

And, there are in fact US machines comparable to the chinese......... Atlas, for one, was the "cheapo" machine of its day. At that time, you could look at one next to a real machine, and just shred the details and/or lack thereof in comparison. Eerily close to the chinese lathes of today......

Design, fit and finish, or materials quality? I offer you the zamac, as just an example of the cost-cutting, as well as the tiny, thin, carriage as compared to the proportions of a typical industrial machine...... The lack of wipers or any credible oiling facilities on many parts, cheaply cut gears, sharp edges and "fins" all over the castings, etc, etc, etc.......

Nope, what goes around comes around...........

*refer to a post somewhere above.....

**a reworked slide leadscrew from cheapo chinese product:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/chinlead.jpg

gwilson
02-02-2010, 11:54 PM
My first lathe was a brand new 12" Sears Atlas. It took forever to make anything on it. I could only take off about 1/32" at a pass on steel. The dials lied because the lathe's bed flexed so much. the gears were zamac. I had to replace the zamac half nuts every several months. I sold that lathe to an electric motor repair shop. After all,it WAS really an armature lathe.

My next lathe was a 10" Jet. It was incredible how much better it was.

I have heard the horror stories.Guess I've been lucky. My neighbor actually did buy a Jet with the carriage clear full of shavings( I'll bet some pissed off employee sabotaged it). He sent it back and got a more expensive model,still 14". He's been making high quality Bugatti,and other parts on it for 10 years now. His daytime job is running a machine shop at NASA.

websterz
02-03-2010, 12:10 AM
Buy what you can afford, use it to the best of your ability, and if you feel the need to bad-mouth someone else's choice in machine tools then perhaps you need to STFU and go back to lurking. :mad:

lazlo
02-03-2010, 02:22 AM
Maybe you could post some examples of the work you have produced after all of your hard work and expense tuning this unit to your specifications. Must really be something. Sure others would like a peek, too.

You guys have no idea who you're talking trash about, do you?

http://www.youtube.com/user/MuellerNick#p/u/8/-g0Ie1l_nfs

MuellerNick
02-03-2010, 03:39 AM
How can I post pictures here (me dumb)?
Only when they are hosted at photobucket?


Nick

The Artful Bodger
02-03-2010, 03:45 AM
How can I post pictures here (me dumb)?
Only when they are hosted at photobucket?


Nick

Yes Nick I believe they must be hosted somewhere. See sticky at the top of this section.

John

.RC.
02-03-2010, 05:52 AM
Nothing is more miserable than trying to do precison work on a worn out lathe.

+100


Not many cheap second hand machines around here that are any good... However sometimes something good turns up http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Harrison-M250-Metal-Lathe-accesories-Near-New_W0QQitemZ330401135008 but it is still expensive..

darryl
02-03-2010, 06:28 AM
Posting pictures here is easy, and you don't have to use photobucket. Click on the GMT ad at the top of this page, go to resources, click on free photo upload. Browse to your photo file, click- then click submit- wait for photo to load. Photo has to be under 200k to work. Copy the link that appears with the photo.

Then come to this forum and start a new thread, or reply to a thread. When the reply box comes up, look under the Sm of Smilies- there's a yellow box. Click that and paste the link, then hit ok. Now the link is in your reply.

crancshafter
02-03-2010, 11:21 AM
I set my up 14X40 Chinese lathe a year ago and I have been happily running it with zero problems since! For less than $2800 I had a brand new lathe set up and running not an old worn out machine that would have taken the year to rebuild and the rebuild likely would have cost, in addition to whatever purchase price, more than I paid for the Chinese machine. Seems that most of the complaints about these Chinese machines come from people who do not own them? :confused:

radkins
I have had my 12x36 for two and a half years and I have had no problem with it. I inspected the gearbox the first day and found no sand or debriss:-(. So I send a complain to the chinaman, and he sendt me a refund(a bag of sand) ;-)
Seriousley: I love my 12x36.
Crankshafter

MuellerNick
02-03-2010, 11:34 AM
OK, for all the non-believers, here is a small selection of photos taken of my Optimum D330 * 1000:

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles/16348_67_rst1.jpg
This is the separation of the tailstock.

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles/16348_108969656664_support2.JPG
This is the saddle spotted with a *lot* of blue.

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles/16348_108969656664_goldmine.jpg
Chips (brass? copper?) ritht on their way into the roller bearing (the bore).

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles2008/16348_108969656664_sl4.jpg
That's where the spindle bearing goes into. Rough surface, not deburred. The outer ring won't settle correctly.

MuellerNick
02-03-2010, 11:35 AM
http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles2008/16348_108969656664_bk1.jpg

Fitting surface for the spindle stock

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles/16348_67_ps3.jpg
Spotted cross-slide. Can you find spots on the left guide? There are some!
Twisted by 0,1mm!

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles2008/16348_108969656664_sl9.jpg
Aligning the two bores for the bearings of the spindle stock. I have bored both new and inserted new bearings.

If you still don't believe, take your's apart and check for yourself.

Nick

Richard-TX
02-03-2010, 11:47 AM
In the real world, though, there are plenty of US made machines that are not 'fit only for the melting pot"........... The idea that they are all worn out and junk is just as closed-minded, jingoistic, and as totally unthinking as the idea that every chinese lathe is 'crap".

Your statement is true, but on the same token machine availability varies greatly from region to region of the US. In my area, there were no good used lathes that I could find and I searched for two years. While other areas may enjoy a flourishing used market where used machines litter the streets, that is not the case everywhere.

MuellerNick
02-03-2010, 11:48 AM
And some more ...

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles2008/16348_106769655749_cls1.jpg
This is the spindle nose (Camlock). It should be planar, or concave, it was convex. This shot is taken after the first grinding pass. I have painted the surface black, so you can see where the material first was taken off.

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles/16348_106769628145_osutg.jpg
Setup for casting moglice for the topslide's guide.

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles2008/16348_106769628145_baustelle.jpg
Almost complete :-)

http://www.cncecke.de/bilder/uploadFiles2008/16348_106769655749_db1.jpg
Surface. This was similar to what you call "drill rod". No scotch brite, stoning or whatever involved.

Nick

lazlo
02-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Fitting surface for the spindle stock

If you still don't believe, take your's apart and check for yourself.

Nick

Nick, sorry for the rough introduction, but welcome to the Home Shop Machinist Forum -- I'm glad you found us! :)

Amazing job on the restoration/rebuild of that lathe!

JTToner
02-03-2010, 07:39 PM
Nick, just ignore the rude louts. There are some nice guys here. Also, many, like myself, who just want to learn more.

MrSleepy
02-03-2010, 07:57 PM
Hi Nick


I'm surprised by the quality issues with the Optimum brand...
I was under the impression that they were cast in china but fit and finished in Germany...with an implication of higher quality than say Huvema or uk Chester or Warco..

cheers Rob

Tony Ennis
02-03-2010, 08:47 PM
Availablility of old iron also depends upon how much lathe a person wants to move. I can't handle moving a 2000lb lathe. I can't get one in my basement. Not a whole lot of 'American Iron' fits my requirements.

Fortunately, I got some 'American ZAMAK'!

I would have been better off with a Chicom 9x20 than the wreck I bought. I do like those Griz 12" lathes...

oldtiffie
02-03-2010, 09:16 PM
Is an innate ability or talent to grizzle like $hit a pre-requisite to buying a "Grizzly", HF or what-ever brand of lathe/machine/any bloody thing that originates in "China"?

Did those of you that bought one buy it without adequate checking?

Or did you buy is just to give you some grizzling "cred" with the rest of the "Grizzlers"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate

radkins
02-03-2010, 10:52 PM
You nay-sayer guys can analyze the China imports any way you like but the fact remains that I, and a heck of a lot of other satisfied owners, are happily using our imports instead of spending the time trying to rebuild a worn out pile of scrap iron and for less money to top it off! Why the heck would I spend $20,000 or more for a ready to run lathe for a home shop when I could do everything I need on a machine that cost less than $3,000? Or why should I pay $2,000 for a worn out machine that I would have to spend at least that much more on and spend probably a year working on the darn thing? For the $2,800 I spent I got a new 14X40 machine that has done just fine and if it runs another 6 months, and if the reviews from other owners are any indication I expect it to run for years, then the thing will have more than paid for itself by then. Buy new industrial iron if you can afford to spend that much for your hobby or rebuild a worn out junker if you have the time BUT, I think a lot of the owners of these machines will agree with me when I say I want to work on my projects not the damn lathe!

tdkkart
02-03-2010, 11:57 PM
OK, for all the non-believers, here is a small selection of photos taken of my Optimum D330 * 1000:


OK, so you've provided photographic evidence of what was wrong with YOUR lathe in particular.

2 questions come to mind:

1. If you checked every other Chicom lathe in the same manner would you come across the same results??

2. Has anyone checked a new out of the crate 9 or 10" Southbend in the same manner?? And what were the results??

I work in a factory every day, I see the "couldn't give a ****" attitudes. Those attitudes have not changed much if any in the last 25 years, and I doubt that they've changed much in the last 60 years, so I have no doubt that you would likely find the same sorts of problems with a "War Department" tagged piece of machinery.

So what led you to by a "substandard" Chicom lathe and immediately rip it apart for refurbishing when you claim you could have bought a much better piece of German or American equipment and done the same?? Why would you have even considered such a purchase??

RB211
02-04-2010, 12:27 AM
I never doubted Nicks claims, and believe that most of the tools from China have these problems. Most of us choose to ignore or pretend that these issues do not exist and go on happily making parts that work. When I first got into machining, I was paranoid about super tight tolerances, about everything being square, and perfect. I got over it once I started making parts that simply work.
If I was to examine any of my lathes, including my southbend, in the way that Nick did, I believe every single one of them would require a lot of work to make it to the standards we all hope for, EXCEPT for my Taig, I am pretty sure my Taig is probably the most "technically" accurate Lathe I have.

J Tiers
02-04-2010, 12:36 AM
You nay-sayer guys can analyze the China imports any way you like but the fact remains that I, and a heck of a lot of other satisfied owners, are happily using our imports instead of spending the time trying to rebuild a worn out pile of scrap iron and for less money to top it off! ....................Or why should I pay $2,000 for a worn out machine that I would have to spend at least that much more on and spend probably a year working on the darn thing? ...............

Probably an exaggeration......

I spent about $600, plus most of a couple hundred more for some parts, and have worked on the actual machine very little..... I could have done much more if I was as fussy as Nick, but I did as much as I enjoyed, and deal with the rest.

I bought a Logan 10 x 24, now about 68 years old, and with a little wear. but nothing severe, about 3 thou on the bed near the chuck.

I would have spent MORE to get a 9 x 20, and would have gotten less than half the machine I actually have......

My entire shop with all tooling is about the cost you paid for the lathe alone...... And I have a mill, lathe, two shapers, grinding machines, TP grinders, large industrial drill press, die filer, and several rollarounds full of nice older tooling in perfectly decent condition. Even the measuring equipment. including gage blocks and various standards......

I am not in Ohio or the NE machine forest..... but I am not in a machine desert either. I just have a good idea how to buy, and am selective.

AlexK
02-04-2010, 03:02 AM
After running my new lathe on all speeds for 30 min. I've took the top lid off the headstock to check the gears and oil.
Oil is actually pretty clean, just some tiny metal particles on the bottom, no sand.
The gears are slightly chambered but not deburred.

Before I change the oil I want to deburr the top gears(they are accessible without taking headstock apart) I don't feel adventurous enough to take it apart even thought extra chamfering and deburring would help to make speed change smother. Right now you have to "play" with the gear change handles before gears will engage.

What tool should I use for deburring? I don't want to use sand paper for obvious reason that some abrasive particles might stay even after oil change and find it's way into bearings.

MuellerNick
02-04-2010, 03:41 AM
I'm surprised by the quality issues with the Optimum brand...


Well, I was too!
No, they are not assembled in Germany, not even checked there. They don't even open the box!
Optimum claims that they are made to tool-room precision. That would be DIN 8605 (for lathes). But in the same sentence, they say it is to DIN 8606, that is less than tool-room precision. But this too is simply plain wrong. The protocol that comes with the lathe is missing some very important checks and tolerances in that protocol are worse than the DIN 8606 allows.
So this is simply a lie. I had to discover that later, after I bought the DIN 8605.


1. If you checked every other Chicom lathe in the same manner would you come across the same results??


After I have heared and seen other pictures of lathes and mills, my only conclusion is: YES. But there might be rare exceptions.
And I personally had two of them. They were both the same. The shere amount of bad work in a single lathe shows me, that I didn't get a Mondays lathe, the problems are systematic.


So what led you to by a "substandard" Chicom lathe and immediately rip it apart for refurbishing when you claim you could have bought a much better piece of German or American equipment and done the same?? Why would you have even considered such a purchase??


Now you can call me stupid!
I simply trusted their claims and trusted a few people (like some here that have the same credo). I had been looking for a used lathe, but I didn't want to invest the time to refurbish it. I wanted something to work with, and not to work at.
So the first lathe arrived. I moved it donwstairs into my shop and started to find more and more issues. So I complained about that at the importer. First, he didn't react as expected but finally, the case escalated to the boss of Optimum. He promised me a new lathe that is made to the highest standards. It took 9 months until that one arrived. I had no time to check that new one, so I blindly moved that one into the cellar only to discover absolutely the same problems. The importer no longer reacted and only said "You can return it and get your money back".
Now what? I needed a lathe! So I decided to fix it. Whenever I fixed one issue, two new ones were found.

The result is absolutely stupid!
I have bought a new lathe for 4500.- EUR, invested about 500.- EUR in parts, invested hundrets of hours of work, and still have something that is only better than it was but simply isn't as good as could be considering the money and time spent.
If I would have bought a used Weiler (or something similar, Weilers are overpriced) for 3000.-, let the bed regrind for 1000.- and spend 1000.- for new bearings and the same amount of time, I would have a lathe for the same price. But precise, everlasting, solid and reliable.

Now, you know why you can call me stupid. And -thats what stupidy is for- it won't happen to me again.

But I have learned a lot about working with Moglice and about refurbishing a lathe. :D

Hope that explains a lot.
Nick

The Artful Bodger
02-04-2010, 03:53 AM
Nick, your requirements are obviously quite different to mine. I am quite satisfied with my machine and you were disappointed in yours.

The big difference is that you obviously have the knowledge and skills to do something about truing the machine whereas I am a raw beginner.

I did note that your machine is quite similar to mine, same general specifications although yours has a more 'modern' appearance on the front of the spindle gearbox and of course I would really like that burgundy coloured paint!:)

There is another big difference too in that yours is listed on websites at twice the price I paid for mine.:eek:

MuellerNick
02-04-2010, 04:10 AM
and of course I would really like that burgundy coloured paint!

I painted that over! I couldn't stand to see their company colours anymore.


There is another big difference too in that yours is listed on websites at twice the price I paid for mine.

Quality has its price! Hahahahahahahaha!

After I found out the manufacturer, I discovered that Optimum (Quantum is also a brand of them) paid about $900 (or was it 1200?) FOB + $90 shipping + 3% customs + 19%VAT. Now, that's a rippoff compared to the $6200 I paid. :D

Today, I can only laugh about my stupidity!


Nick

The Artful Bodger
02-04-2010, 04:39 AM
Nick, my lathe sat on a pallet in a shop showroom and I used to walk by, like a kid past a sweet shop, and dream about this gleaming beauty but as the years went by they took no care to keep it clean or to disguise the oil stains and the film of rust that formed on all surfaces.

Eventually the shop was sold and I took a look inside to spend a few minutes looking at a little combination lathe/drill/mill and I expressed an opinion that it might be inadequate either as a lathe or a mill. Then the shop owner (it is only a small shop) said in a very frustated voice "If that is too small why not take this &%$#@&^ out of my shop?" So I did, it cost me about $2300 so I think even then he still made some profit!:)

He was very good and helped me move it to my house, he found all the accessories and gave me some others that were loose in stock, centres, tail stock chuck and a face plate (which unfortunately does not fit my lathe but it has found a position as a 'rotary table' on my shaper). He also gave me some small tools with brazed tips which was good because after a few days of 'learning' I had bent some of these like pretzels without damaging the lathe.

Maybe one day I will feel the need to true the lathe like you have done but meanwhile I am very pleased.;)

Tony Ennis
02-04-2010, 10:09 AM
I just have a good idea how to buy,

Being knowledgeable always helps.


and am selective.

One can do quite well if one has the time to wait for the best deals as you've shown.

But clearly, there's more to this. If unworn inexpensive old iron was easy to come by, the Chicom resellers never would have set up shop. Yet they did, and they're thriving. So something doesn't add up.

J Tiers
02-04-2010, 10:23 AM
Being knowledgeable always helps.



One can do quite well if one has the time to wait for the best deals as you've shown.

But clearly, there's more to this. If unworn inexpensive old iron was easy to come by, the Chicom resellers never would have set up shop. Yet they did, and they're thriving. So something doesn't add up.

Oh, it adds up alright.........

1) more old tools are melted than are re-sold. Many large companies have a requirement that the stuff be trashed, smashed, and made useless, either on liability grounds, or because that is a requirement of their tax writeoff.

2) the supply is smaller than the demand in many areas.

3) So many people would like a "brand new perfect machine" instead of "an old worn-out machine that will never produce accurate work".

4) many or most surplus machines are larger than most HSMs want, so they compete for the limited supply of smaller machines. There are 9 and 10" class surplus, and then you tend to move up to 15" and larger. Nothing much smaller, and little in the 12" area. The few 6" Atlas tend to sell for way above their value, and even the AA/109 can sell for as much as I paid for my Logan (top price I've seen was $590 for a 109, totally inexplicable).

The importers filled the 12" area, and also filled in the lower sizes, which sell like hotcakes. And the lowish prices sold lots of 9 x 20 size.

5) when the importers started, US manufacturing was still in existence, and the surplus machines were not yet available. Now that US manufacturing is part of the hated past, surplus is drying up, there isn't anything left to surplus out.

QSIMDO
02-04-2010, 10:30 AM
I hope all this doesn't mean I have to give back all the tremendously enjoyable hours I've spent on working with and on my imported lathe and mill?

radkins
02-04-2010, 10:54 AM
Probably an exaggeration......


No exaggeration at all but then I was looking at bigger machines than that 10" you mentioned, after all I already had a 9X20 Jet. As far as the rebuild cost, who knows? That would depend entirely on what had to be done and how much of the work would need to be "farmed out", for sure I would have spent a long time working ON the darn thing before I could have done any work WITH it. Again there just does not seem to be a lot of owners of these Chinese imports (12" and up) complaining about them, in fact seems to be that most people are quite satisfied with them. I am NOT saying they are top notch quality and never have but the people who want to trash them simply ignore the fact they are perfectly usable. For the price of a worn out industrial quality outfit a person can have a new machine that needs only tuning before it is ready to work and if the parts being made are coming out within tolerances then what is wrong with that? This "buy the best or just do without" attitude that some people have just don't make sense to most of us and to those who can afford the mega bucks for a good used machine or have the time and skills to rebuild an old one, Bully for you but just use your machine and don't try to trash mine I, and many others like me, are perfectly happy with them!

tdkkart
02-04-2010, 03:07 PM
But clearly, there's more to this. If unworn inexpensive old iron was easy to come by, the Chicom resellers never would have set up shop. Yet they did, and they're thriving. So something doesn't add up.


Correct.
A business the size of Grizzly is not a small undertaking, and for that business to invest the money needed to buy and distribute a product is no small amount either.
(Notice I did not say "design and manufacture", because we know that grizzly does not design much of anything, just has close copies of existing machines made)
Products that don't sell will not be in the catalog very long, it simply costs too much to support them for a couple sales per year. So, there must be a market out there somewhere or the stuff wouldn't be selling or be offered for sale.
And, people must be reasonably happy with their purchases or they'd turn them around for whatever they could get out of them. But, you don't seem to see the Chicom stuff on the used market any more frequently than the old iron.
The previous owner of my house had a large woodworking sop packed with Grizzly stuff. I asked his opinion, he was vary happy with all of it, and he did some VERY nice work on those machines.
Very seldom do you find someone that actually owns Grizzly products that is unhappy with them.

In the end it turns into Chevy vs Ford. The Chevy guys are happy, wouldn't buy a Ford, yet they cannot deny that Ford sells stuff that other preople find perfectly useful and likeable.

vpt
02-04-2010, 03:15 PM
In the end it turns into Chevy vs Ford. The Chevy guys are happy, wouldn't buy a Ford, yet they cannot deny that Ford sells stuff that other preople find perfectly useful and likeable.



And all the parts for both are still made in china.

J Tiers
02-05-2010, 12:24 AM
Radkins:

Definitely NOT "trashing yours"................... My earlier post should have made that clear.....

My point in the second one was that you had made the case on the basis of paying only a little more than the "clapped out used machine" cost to get a new one. I disagree on that,, simply because the costs usually don't work out like that. Not here, anyway, if you leave out Southbend, which everyone seems to think is a 10EE for some reason.....

I can buy a decent 11" machine (the 12" don't come up much used, due to that size not being popular years ago) for $800-900 and an excellent condition and well-tooled one for perhaps $1200 to at most $1500.

if I want a 15", that may come cheaper...... they are too big for the HSM in general, competition is less.

I bought a 10", a very solid one that swings nearly 11", for less than I have ever seen a 9 x 20 sell for new. And the 9 x 20 I WILL trash, I have had the experience of one personally (not mine) and I was definitely "not impressed"....... I wouldn't give $300 for one.

The import machines tend to start being decent at the 12" size, barring the typical 120-150 RPM minimum speed.

But spending 70% of the cost of a new chinese lathe for a worn-out "iron mine" of a used machine makes no sense...... not around here. So I call that an "exaggeration"..... Maybe if you are in Alaska.....

tdkkart
02-05-2010, 12:26 AM
Come on people, we've barely gotten to 11 pages on this ambiguous subject, meanwhile something as cut and dried as 12in/lbs = 1ft/lb is following close behind with 6 pages.

Let's get on the ball here and see if we can come up something........

MuellerNick
02-05-2010, 03:11 AM
Come on people, we've barely gotten to 11 pages on this ambiguous subject,

The Wok-lathe-meme has to be spread!
You just have to believe and follow the rules*), and your Chinese lathe will be a blessed one.


*) Only remove the sand, if any.


Nick

Black_Moons
02-05-2010, 04:26 AM
If that poor fit and finish is true of my chinese lathe..
then im amazed at the results such a POS can produce!!

So far I havent found any problems (besides a small oil leak that was fixed by a $5 tube of gasket maker) that can't be attributed to the loose nut holding the controls :P
Well, Except that the face plate is misprinted(?). It says you need a 24/48 gear config to turn some metric threads, but its impossable to fit that. 26/52 (included gears) Do however (just BARLY) fit, and produce the exact same effect, So I use those for all my work insted of the 24/48 pair.

Kibby
02-05-2010, 07:00 AM
I had the 9x20 sold by JET. It was okay after a lot of mods and tuning, but it definitely had a lot left to be desired. If Chinese lathes "seem to get better" at 12-inches, what about us guys that need an accurate smaller lathe? It would be overkill for me to turn a thumbstud for a folding knife on a 12" lathe. So can anyone recommend a decent small lathe for a guy like me?

J Tiers
02-05-2010, 10:00 AM
Many of the smaller "7 x 12" mini-lathes are actually decent..... They are a newer development.

The 9 x 20 was the poster child for chinese trash machines, as the quality was variable in an extreme. The basic design is apparently that of an EMCO-maier 6" which has been extended with what amounts to 'riser blocks" to make it swing 9". The conversion did not involve any large amount more metal in the bed etc.....

OldRedFord
02-07-2010, 08:35 AM
I quick look at CraigsList in my area yeilds 4 metal lathes. A few 6" Craftsman, a Sheldon, and a 14" BP with a 16' bed.

ldbent
02-08-2010, 02:35 AM
I have owned six lathes over the years swinging from 9 to 18.5 inches with center distances from 20 to 60 inches. Power ranged from .33hp to 9kw. Weight ranged from 500 to 4500 pounds. Manufacturing dates ranged from 1928 to 1978. My 13 inch South Bend is my favorite. It is very quiet as most belt drive lathes are. It is very smooth operating as you would expect a machine with a design incorporating many decades of improvements to be. Parts availability is very good -search Practical Machinist and Yahoo South Bend sites.
Substantial construction and easy portability-with hand tools and an appliance hand truck you and a pal can put one anywhere. Widely available-check Craigslist in metro areas for many examples. Modest prices-as Dad and Grandpa pass their are few interested in manual machine tools.

I hear all this whining about worn out lathes. Since 1968 or so few manual machine tools have had enough use to be barely worn. The ways are worn by the headstock-so what. The few thousandths difference in tool height will be undetectable except on the tiniest diameters. Not enough power-BS- with a sharp,keen tool and a fine feed .100 depth of cut on cold rolled is a piece of cake. Too much back lash-replace the cross feed screw and nut. There is not a Chinese lathe for less than 6000 dollars that is the equal of a 13 inch South Bend that has had some attention paid to it.
If there aren't any lathes in your area seek the help of fellow board members in nearby metro areas. Many will be happy to check out your craigslist find. I've bought several tools sight unseen and have yet to be cheated.
Have fun,
Larry

RB211
02-08-2010, 02:56 AM
I have owned six lathes over the years swinging from 9 to 18.5 inches with center distances from 20 to 60 inches. Power ranged from .33hp to 9kw. Weight ranged from 500 to 4500 pounds. Manufacturing dates ranged from 1928 to 1978. My 13 inch South Bend is my favorite. It is very quiet as most belt drive lathes are. It is very smooth operating as you would expect a machine with a design incorporating many decades of improvements to be. Parts availability is very good -search Practical Machinist and Yahoo South Bend sites.
Substantial construction and easy portability-with hand tools and an appliance hand truck you and a pal can put one anywhere. Widely available-check Craigslist in metro areas for many examples. Modest prices-as Dad and Grandpa pass their are few interested in manual machine tools.

I hear all this whining about worn out lathes. Since 1968 or so few manual machine tools have had enough use to be barely worn. The ways are worn by the headstock-so what. The few thousandths difference in tool height will be undetectable except on the tiniest diameters. Not enough power-BS- with a sharp,keen tool and a fine feed .100 depth of cut on cold rolled is a piece of cake. Too much back lash-replace the cross feed screw and nut. There is not a Chinese lathe for less than 6000 dollars that is the equal of a 13 inch South Bend that has had some attention paid to it.
If there aren't any lathes in your area seek the help of fellow board members in nearby metro areas. Many will be happy to check out your craigslist find. I've bought several tools sight unseen and have yet to be cheated.
Have fun,
Larry
You sold me

oldtiffie
02-08-2010, 04:11 AM
In case anyone forgot or ignored it or just decided to hi-jack it anyway, the title of the thread is:
"Improving Chinese Lathe question"
and here is the OP (aka Post #1):

I've just got my brand new "Made in China" 12x36 lathe and currently in the process of setting it up.

I have a surface grinder and wonder if any parts of my lathe will benefit from some surface grinding. My surface grinder magnet chuck is only 10"x5" so I am limited to relatively small parts.

The next two posts in order were:

I would first determine which parts, if any, require improvement.

and:


I have a Chinese 12x36 lathe and there is nothing to my unpracticed eye that looks like I could improve it.

OK, there are a few clunky bits, for instance the chunk of metal that clamps the tail stock is rather roughly formed and maybe a bit of attention there would make it feel 'nicer' when moving the tail stock.

After that other than a few notable exceptions - as usual - it just got hi-jacked and off it went into the usual rants.

Kibby
02-08-2010, 05:01 AM
When I had my 9x20, I made all new hand wheels for it. The stock wheels were small.

Also my feeling is that any improvements that can be done to the compound result in a better lathe. I suggest taking the whole lathe down to its basic components and rebuilding it, all the while deburring and cleaning. Like dropping a nuke from orbit: Its the only way to be sure.

Spin Doctor
02-08-2010, 12:11 PM
A junk lathe is a junk lathe, no matter where it was made or when. Having used worn out abused US junk and new US and British* lathes professionally a new lathe is almost always better than a used one given they are built to the same level of engineering. A light weight bench top lathe is never going to be the equal of a 10EE, but then they aren't meant to be. Having said that a lot of us live in machiery deserts. I'm in SE WI and one would think thgat between Milwaukee and Chicago we'd be swimming in used mills and lathes. I hate to tell we aren't to a large degree. Used hobbiest machinery does not come up for sale all that often. And lets face it, a lot of us don't have the resources to haul home the really pristine LeBlond Regal we could of got for a song unless we hire a rigger. And there goes your savings. Personally I bought a 9x20 off of ebay and a PM1027 from Matt. In both cases I knew what io was getting into. The 9x20 will serve to do some modifications to the 1027 and then it gets sold (maybe sooner as I do have access to machinery at work). The 1027 has its flaws. But I have accepted them and somer I can fix, some I can't. I can fix wonky leadscrews and fits. I can't fix the mass.

*OK, its Polish as it is a Harrison

madokie
02-11-2010, 02:10 AM
Well you dont have to any work or labor to "improve" your chinese lathe or other chinese "machine tool",we offer FREE "improving" and "servicing" here in OKLAHOMA,it started up about mid-90's and gets a little bigger every yr,it seemed neighbors noticed other neighbors "improving" things like rusty fords , smoking chevys,unfixable computorized jap vehicles,leaky washing machines, old computor monitors,wobbly desks, and other things that needed "improving".it soon became family weekend event,and one thing lead to another and pretty soon it became a yearly event,open to the public, selling tickets, t-shirts and all.its called OFASTS and has its own web site, and u-tube videos,first before i get ahead of myself , a little about the history, of how the "improvement process", came to be.first steel blasting was tried(sand blasting but with steel ),it worked really fast, but the steel "improvement pellets" proved too costly and rust was also a problem not to mention , richoches,then lead "improvement pellets" were used,not fast enough, so a alloy copper/lead "improvement pellet" was tried, and hit just the right speed.but due to safety requirements a 200-300 yd distance is needed .commonly used "improvement pellet" delivery device is AR-15, SKS,AK-47, or MINI-14,for the monetarily challenged, a12ga slug,30-30,common deer rifle, 9MM, or .38 will do,as it seems the process works quite well regardless of speed or size of "improvement pellet" , the wealthier people use M-16, BAR, 1919A6, MAC-10, UZI , or the crowd favorites, GE MINI-GUN 7.62X51,or M2-HB .50.after 2 days of "improvement" at the 200 yard line i can guarantee your chinese "tool" wont need any more "improvement" or "modification" or upgrades as we have the process down to a science.and remember its FREE!!!

madokie
03-15-2010, 01:36 AM
well its been over 1 month and no one has repsonded to my last post. hmm wonder why??oh i know all the chinese "owners " are down at the local community college learning chinese!!well i can save them a lot of time , the chinese word for improvement is FUBAR or is it SNAFU?? oh well,any way OFASTS, our FREE "improvment" event is coming up the last week in june and i thought i would invite anyone who needs chinese machine tool to be "improved" to bring it on down as our service is free ,and as i have shooting spot on firing line i can offer prime access and clear view of "tool" as its being "improved".so if anyone wants to bring thier own "improvement pellet delivery device" down to OKLAHOMA and have some fun, just e-mail me and i'll fill you in as to all the details.:D

The Artful Bodger
03-15-2010, 02:43 AM
well its been over 1 month and no one has repsonded to my last post. hmm wonder why??oh i know all the chinese "owners " are down at the local community college learning chinese

Some might be but I expect most are in their workshops making stuff and having fun.:D

darryl
03-15-2010, 03:48 AM
Well. I've learned a lot from this discussion. Enough stuff has been talked about and trashed about that it boils down to something so simple that I have to smack ma own haid up-side- don't buy any machine unless it's been pelletized! One look and you'll know you have a lot of fixin up to do, so why not fix all them little things while your at it- like regrind the ways, recast the carriage, make a new spindle, scrape 8 or 12 pounds of extra metal off the silding surfaces, and epoxy all that sand to the inside of the headbox so it don't move around so much. It's good to know your machine inside out.

Ok, so I have nothing to add. Except maybe this- if you filter through all the good and bad that has been talked about with all these american, chinese, canadian, siamese, and peruvian machine tools, you get a pretty good idea of what to expect when you're shopping and find something that might fit your uses and wallet. Basically, you have to have learned by now that you can't just buy the machine and know it's ready to run and make parts for the Extra Large Hadron Colloider Super CircleMagnet. MadOkie will have to certify your machine first- OK?

But if I was to say something serious (my haid would explode, but besides that-) I'd have to suggest that maybe we should look at this whole topic as if the title read a little differently- it should have been 'Improving Any Lathe' Question. We're really looking at two different issues here, one is that of buying a machine, chinese or otherwise, and expecting perfect performance right out of the box or barn, and the other issue is what can be done with this, or that, to make this situation better- It seems obvious that you can't expect to buy ANY machine on a normal budget and get it good-to-go, and it also seems obvious that if you find a problem with your machine, someone here has already had that and learned what to do about it, and so can possibly help you. All the toe stomping, grumbling and bitching, name calling and other follies- that's just us being our normal selves. What the heck else are we gonna do- machine something? :)

sidneyt
03-15-2010, 10:32 AM
I've just got my brand new "Made in China" 12x36 lathe and currently in the process of setting it up.

I have a surface grinder and wonder if any parts of my lathe will benefit from some surface grinding. My surface grinder magnet chuck is only 10"x5" so I am limited to relatively small parts.

Getting back to the question: I would suggest taking your new "Made in China" 12 x 36 completely apart and run all the pieces through your surface grinder. It couldn't hurt and you would wind up with more shine on the parts.