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Dawai
02-03-2010, 05:47 PM
Okay, the argument, the "car ran away".. the dealer says it is a rubber floor mat.. the owner says the car just ran away.. I'm burned out on the news.. so many people don't want to take responsibility for "burning their lip on hot coffee" much less having a accident from bad choices.

Imagine a day when the policeman approaches your car, reads the gps, reads the lil black box record that says you just drove from Atlanta to New York and sped all the way, gives you a sheaf of tickets and a print out of your incriminating evidence pulled from your own car.

OR? a "special gas pedal" that has "clicks" one for each speed limit.. the computer ramps up to the speed limit selected.. USE the click for computer regulated "great" gas mileage.. one click 35mph.. next 40mph.. etc..

Mcgyver
02-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Speeding tickets are a tax that accomplishes nothing. I find some police spokesperson saying 'speed was a factor' is a particularly distilled form of idiocy - speed is ALWAYS a factor, cars that aren't moving don't collide. Speed itself doesn't cause accidents, going too fast for road conditions, following to closely, not unsafe lane changes etc cause accidents. or then there's the fact 40kh over on a clear dry highway is nothing, but its insane on small residential street...but guess where the radar is. I wish they'd stop the nonsense and go catch bad guys

now technology could be used to identify the real problems; drivers following to closely, running reds, unsafe lane changes, going too fast for the weather/road etc etc

vpt
02-03-2010, 06:02 PM
Catching bad guys doesn't pay their wage. Traffic tickets to innocent citizens pays for everything.

mochinist
02-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Pretty sure most cars newer than 2003 have a sort of black box built into them that the police and insurance companies can plug into.

Here in AZ we have photo radar all over the freeway system and on the surface streets of certain cities. They arent to popular with the citizens and most people just ignore the ticket, and hope they dont get served within 120 days

MickeyD
02-03-2010, 06:16 PM
The OBDI2 series computers actually store quite a bit of recent information that can be retrieved. With some of the new information that is trickling out about Toyota's problems (BTY, the did agree that adding a software brake override to the throttle is a good idea and they are implementing it on new cars) we will get to learn a lot more about how they work.

camdigger
02-03-2010, 06:18 PM
Hmmm. Imagine a system that records speed and G forces incurred and downloads to a memory stick. Now imagine having to submit that memory stick with your time sheet to get paid. Been in our service industry 10 years.

Imagine a system that records all that data, then emails a driving report to your boss the first time you start your laptop up. The laptop is an integral part of your job. That system is in place now.

A system tied into Onstar that monitors speed, G-force, and location in real time. If your crew truck is parked too close to the bar for too long enroute home, the monitoring service is authorized to disable it. This has been a response to drinking and driving in company vehicles. The monitoring service also is authorized to disable the vehicle remotely like the theft shut down via Onstar. So if you drive down a rough road too fast, your truck mysteriously dies, and you have to call your boss or the company safety man to have it reactivated. That system is also rumored to have been in effect for several years now.

Why? Well here's a typical story. A local enforcement officer stopped 4 crew vehicles from the same contractor along a 4 mile stretch of highway over a 3 week stretch. All were over weight. All were travelling at least 40 km/hr (25 mph) over the clearly posted speed limit. 2 of the 4 vehicles stopped were replacements for the ones impounded in previous episodes. Some folks is just slow learners.:rolleyes: BTW, all 4 crews were on their way home from working for me when they were stopped. For some reason I was closely watched too. No tickets though.:D

vpt
02-03-2010, 06:24 PM
I would never buy a new vehicle!

danlb
02-03-2010, 06:37 PM
Okay, the argument, the "car ran away".. the dealer says it is a rubber floor mat.. the owner says the car just ran away..

In this case, the LBB will only say that the throttle was at X position. It will not tell you what was holding the gas pedal down.

I've often thought it would be neat to have a transponder in the road that told the car what the speed limit is. My GPS knows the speed limit now, based on photos of speed limit signs taken when the roads were mapped.

Dan

danlb
02-03-2010, 06:41 PM
I would never buy a new vehicle!


New ones can be neat. My wife's 2 month old Camry hybrid feels a lot like a luxury car. Comfy, roomy, quiet, powerful and good mileage in one package.

Compared to a luxury car 10 years ago, this is much better.

Of course, I am not going to be working on it (don't want to) so the complexity (or lack thereof) is of no concern.

Dan

vpt
02-03-2010, 06:45 PM
Sure, but I don't want my car to know the speed limit and limit me to any certain speed or limit my braking, steering, etc.

I especially don't want cops knowing my speed history, throttle positions, G-forces, etc. If they pulled me over on my way home from the race track they would lock me up for sure!

Doc Nickel
02-03-2010, 06:52 PM
Imagine a system that records all that data, then emails a driving report to your boss the first time you start your laptop up. The laptop is an integral part of your job. That system is in place now.

-Yep, I don't know the details, but the long-haul truckers have had this for a few years now. The truck sends location, speed and other data, I believe by satellite, to the 'barn', or home office of the trucking company.

It gives pretty much a minute-by-minute report on the truck and the driver- drivers aren't allowed to drive over X hours in a day (eight, I think) and if the truck is speeding for more than Y minutes (they give you leeway for passing or downgrades) somebody gets alerted, and so on.

Now, I'm no fan of this sort of big-brotherism, but in the case of the truckers, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Speeding is one thing- speeding in a tandem with eight million pounds of anvils and roofing nails is something else. :D Especially if you've been in the saddle for sixteen hours hoping to get that early-completion bonus, and your methamphetamines are wearing off. :D

The "black box" in a car, too, is a bit big-brotherish, but I'll accept it- IF there's no broadcast feature. Meaning the box can record anything it wants- what radio stations I'm playing, the amount of change in my pockets, the number of illegal aliens in my trunk, and so on- as long as someone has to get a court order (search and seizure) and connect a physical reader to the box.

That way it's only used if or when there's an accident- and since I don't drive around trying to ricochet off of other peoples cars (though it does save on brake wear) I'd welcome any extra info to help exonerate me when Mr. Magoo decides to park his Roadmaster on my trunk.

Doc.

Black_Moons
02-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Catching bad guys doesn't pay their wage. Traffic tickets to innocent citizens pays for everything.

Actualy, taxes pay for everything, We only pay taxes because the goverment provides useful services with them. At least, that was the general idea of taxes...

I wonder if the typical speed traps tickets given out even pays for the officers time spent at the speed trap and equipment maintence costs.
It really is just to try and keep people from speeding, if there where NO speed traps, I bet a lot more people would speed!

And do they have a surplus of officers to send seting up speed traps
Or do they have a surplus of officers because they send them to set up speed traps and then need to hire more to do the other jobs?

It would also be more intresting IMO if they bothered to have digital signs or something, as in, change the speed limit depending ON road conditions.
Yea its ok to do 130kph on the hiway on a bright sunny day. Maybe only 110 at night. Maybe only 90 in light fog or rain (especialy the first few mins of rain after a long dry spell that slicks the road).. Maybe only 60 in snow/ice/heavy fog. most of the 60kph roads here iv done 40kph on in very bad weather. 70kph in good. Iv seen people (especialy with 4x4's that don't realise... EVERYONE has 4 wheel brakes and 2 wheel steering, you can only accelerate a little faster and that does not help you avoid crashing into someone!) who think 70kph is the proper speed for 60kph roads in the snow.

camdigger
02-03-2010, 07:08 PM
-Yep, I don't know the details, but the long-haul truckers have had this for a few years now. The truck sends location, speed and other data, I believe by satellite, to the 'barn', or home office of the trucking company.

It gives pretty much a minute-by-minute report on the truck and the driver- drivers aren't allowed to drive over X hours in a day (eight, I think) and if the truck is speeding for more than Y minutes (they give you leeway for passing or downgrades) somebody gets alerted, and so on.


It has been a feature on long haul/heavy trucks for 15 or more years. It is done for safety and regulatory compliance, but it has also been sold as a add-on for freight tracing.

Basically uses a round doodad roughly the size of a gallon milk container on the roof or headache rack as a GPS transponder.

The other units I described in my last post are all for passenger vehicles and pick-ups.

FWIW, the Ice Pilots series featured this technology in the episode where they flew the water bombers they'd sold to Turkey across the North Atlantic to deliver them. Apparently, the system they had reported position and speed to a central hub. Interested parties could, with the appropriate passwords, log on and see the plane's position superimposed on a Google Earth type background.

A sad fact of life, but this type of "Big Brotherism" is a growing phenomenon. An off shoot of the internet. I could give several more examples, but I digress...

danlb
02-03-2010, 07:25 PM
The "black box" in a car, too, is a bit big-brotherish, but I'll accept it- IF there's no broadcast feature. Meaning the box can record anything it wants- what radio stations I'm playing, the amount of change in my pockets, the number of illegal aliens in my trunk, and so on- as long as someone has to get a court order (search and seizure) and connect a physical reader to the box.

That way it's only used if or when there's an accident-



A bit off topic, but worth mentioning.

Unfortunately, the search and seizure laws don't really work as they should. Once you turn your car over to a parking attendant, car wash or mechanic you have "no expectation of privacy" so if the feds can legally access the car they are legally allowed to get whatever information they want.

I'm assuming that it's very much like the rulings that your computer, when in for service, can be used as evidence against you even if you have password protected the files. There's a neat FBI tutorial for agents online somewhere on that subject.

Dan

RancherBill
02-03-2010, 07:26 PM
They arent to popular with the citizens and most people just ignore the ticket, and hope they dont get served within 120 days

They aren't popular here either. The government has a solution. You can't renew licence plates etc on a vehicle that has tickets and the owner of a vehicle that has tickets can't get any services, drivers licence renewals for example.

We get Photo Radar, Red light cam and now the blending of speed radar on redlight cams.

JanvanSaane
02-03-2010, 07:40 PM
Better turn off your cell phone too, with new cells a few years back tracking devices were put into them. I would guess they could estimate your speed if you were in a car. The truckers have been using satellite tracking for a while now. A friend of mine got nailed in a speed trap he wasn't speeding in. He hit the "accident" button as soon as he was pulled over (that records in hard form the last 20 minutes). A high dollar lawyer from the tracking company was sent down to represent him and the charge was dropped. John

mochinist
02-03-2010, 07:41 PM
They aren't popular here either. The government has a solution. You can't renew licence plates etc on a vehicle that has tickets and the owner of a vehicle that has tickets can't get any services, drivers licence renewals for example.

We get Photo Radar, Red light cam and now the blending of speed radar on redlight cams.yeah we have the red light cams also. I honestly dont think they will last much longer, our current boob of a governor hasnt done much, but one of the things she has mentioned is suspending them here in the next couple months and putting it to a vote. The tickets issued are a civil complaint and per my simple minded understanding the problem is they arent legal until you are actually served by a human, they just hope that you are a good citizen and pay anyways. Its a big money making scam here, the ticket isnt even reported to your insurance, nor do you get any points on your license. * if you are criminal speeding(25mph or more over the posted speed limit)then I think it becomes a criminal complaint and they will come arrest you.

john hobdeclipe
02-03-2010, 07:57 PM
There was a time when, upon entering the West Virginia Turnpike, you were given a card (punched computer card, if I remember correctly) that was stamped with date, point of entry, and time.

You presented this card at the toll booth when you exited. The times were compared, and if you got there too quickly, supposedly you were in trouble.

1971, and a buddy and I were pulling an all night drive from Hickory, NC to Pittsburgh. At the third rest area/restaurant we had breakfast, and I told him that by my calculations we still needed to kill about another half hour to get our average speed down to an acceptable level. Probably would have been more sensible to have driven at about the speed limit to start with.

Black_Moons
02-03-2010, 08:03 PM
-
That way it's only used if or when there's an accident- and since I don't drive around trying to ricochet off of other peoples cars (though it does save on brake wear) Doc.

a little OT but I could'nt resist: This is by *FAR* my most favorate way to take a turn at wayy too high a speed in PC racing games. Really does save on brake wear! Though the other guy is usally ends up off the track and out of the race.

Dawai
02-03-2010, 08:08 PM
BLUE-TOOTHED into the car in front, networked..

E-braking. no rear end collision cause it warns the car behind, and "when and if" something dreadful like a pile up, warning bells go off before you impact it blindly. Slipping road surface? warning to all "future traffic crossing that locale". How about a heads up on accident blocked intersections with a alternate route piped to you?.

There we go, networked with the traffic controls, turn the light green if no cars on other lanes of travel, meter them out to ease congestion.

It could have advantages too I think, not quite to the point where the steering wheel can be folded out of the way for a nap.. but...

john hobdeclipe
02-03-2010, 08:10 PM
A system tied into Onstar that monitors speed, G-force, and location in real time. If your crew truck is parked too close to the bar for too long enroute home, the monitoring service is authorized to disable it. This has been a response to drinking and driving in company vehicles. The monitoring service also is authorized to disable the vehicle remotely like the theft shut down via Onstar. So if you drive down a rough road too fast, your truck mysteriously dies, and you have to call your boss or the company safety man to have it reactivated. That system is also rumored to have been in effect for several years now.

Our propane delivery guy showed me his new truck when he was here last summer. They have essentially the same technology...a monitor at the office shows where the truck is all the time. If the truck is too far from the day's intended route, or is being driven suspiciously, they can disable it remotely. They can also monitor how much propane is dispensed at each stop.

I think I would have a problem with remotely disabling a vehicle, unless I can assure that it is in a safe area, like NOT on a railroad crossing. Wonder how they handle that?

camdigger
02-03-2010, 08:18 PM
I think I would have a problem with remotely disabling a vehicle, unless I can assure that it is in a safe area, like NOT on a railroad crossing. Wonder how they handle that?

It's an Onstar marketting feature now. Apparently, once activated, it slows the vehicle down ove 15 seconds or some such? Dunno, but Onstar is airing the promo commercials now.



On topic joke.... Apparently, they fitted some with voice recorders. In a couple areas, the last thing heard before a crash was "hold my Pilsner and watch this..."

Evan
02-03-2010, 08:29 PM
Lots of vehicles already record the last 30 seconds of data before an airbag event. It's already been used in Canada to secure at least one conviction.

It's called an Event Data Recorder (EDR) and has been standard equipment for at least 10 years both here and in the US.



INDEPTH: BLACK BOX
Event data recorder or 'black box'

John Bowman, CBC News Online | October 23, 2003


Police can reconstruct accidents

When two cars collide on an isolated road, there may be more witnesses present than just the drivers and passengers. Silent – and, in most cases, unknown – witnesses can lie within the cars themselves.

The same electronic sensor that triggers the deployment of a car's airbags can record and store information on a car's speed, whether the seatbelts are fastened, and whether the driver hit the brakes before a collision.

The device is known as an event data recorder (EDR), or simply a "black box," because it serves a similar function to a flight data recorder in an aircraft.

The information the black boxes record includes:

the car's speed;
the engine's speed;
whether the brakes are applied;
the position of the gas pedal.

It also records other information, such as whether the driver was wearing a seatbelt and the force of the collision.

Because the memory of the black box is limited, it only retains this information for a few seconds. After a collision, the black box contains a record of what was happening in the last seconds before the impact.

Black boxes in the courts

The EDR was originally intended as a diagnostic tool to determine what caused a car's air bag to activate, but now insurance agents and police can use a car's black box to reconstruct what happened before an accident.

Black boxes are installed in millions of cars across North America – most cars that have air bags – but most drivers don't even know they're there.

And there are no rules governing how information taken from black boxes can be used in Canada.

Ontario Provincial Police have used data from black boxes in court cases even without formal rules.

California is the only jurisdiction in North American with any rules on the use of black box information. In that state, the information can only be used with a car owner's consent or with a court order.

A court case in Quebec may influence how black box evidence is treated in Canada.

In April 2001, Eric Gauthier was driving his new Pontiac Sunfire in east end Montreal. His car collided with another and the driver of the other car, Yacine Zinet, died at the scene.

Gauthier told police that Zinet's car was speeding and ran a red light. No one else saw the accident.

However, the black box in Gauthier's car said it was Gauthier who was speeding, travelling at between 130 and 160 km/h when the speed limit was 50.

Gauthier was convicted of dangerous driving, but was cleared of the more serious charge of criminal negligence causing death.

He will be sentenced in March.




http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/blackbox/

Doc Nickel
02-03-2010, 08:46 PM
It's called an Event Data Recorder (EDR) and has been standard equipment for at least 10 years both here and in the US.

-Yessir, that's what we've been talking about. I know more than a few people, usually hardcore Libertarian types or just general "all government intrusion is bad" sorts, that hate it, refuse to buy a car made after 1991 (or whenever, opinions vary) and so on.

But as I said, while aspects of it are a bit Orwellian for me, when it comes down to it, I don't care what it records, as long as somebody has to physically access a hard connector to download the data.

As soon as it gets wireless, whether short-range RFID (which even then can be read much further away than the makers say) or Bluetooth or anywhere-in-the-country satellite, then I have a problem. Then they'll start having readers at intersections and toll booths, cop cars will have readers and compare the results to what you say ("I wasn't speeding, officer!") and so on.

Or, I can just keep driving my 1966 Oldsmobile that has one sort-of computer in the electronic ignition. Suddenly there's a nuclear war and a bomb goes off nearby? The EMP might advance my timing by five degrees 'til the wave passes. :D

Doc.

Evan
02-03-2010, 09:48 PM
My 59 Land Rover is purely electromechanical. The worst that would happen is some burnt out light bulbs. Oh wait, a lot of them already are....:D

vpt
02-03-2010, 10:30 PM
I'll stick with my 89 civic.

TGTool
02-03-2010, 10:38 PM
A bit off topic, but worth mentioning.

Unfortunately, the search and seizure laws don't really work as they should. Once you turn your car over to a parking attendant, car wash or mechanic you have "no expectation of privacy" so if the feds can legally access the car they are legally allowed to get whatever information they want.
Well, maybe, but it can't be used in court. They have to have a search warrant that says what they suspect and what kind of evidence they're looking for. If they're looking for stolen tires they can't look in the glove box because a stolen tire could not be there. If they do it's not admissible evidence and they get their knuckles rapped.



I'm assuming that it's very much like the rulings that your computer, when in for service, can be used as evidence against you even if you have password protected the files. There's a neat FBI tutorial for agents online somewhere on that subject.

Dan

If the service techs see evidence of a crime such as child pornography they may be required to report it. Same for doctors or other professionals with child abuse.

OTOH, the US Patriot act may supercede some of that.

steve45
02-03-2010, 11:18 PM
Apparently, they fitted some with voice recorders.
OnStar equipped vehicles have microphones in them. Just because you don't subscribe to the service doesn't mean that OnStar can't (won't) monitor conversations inside your vehicle. Time to pull the fuse!

There was a fatal accident about 3 blocks from my home last week. Teenager was allegedly doing about 90 MPH and ran a stop sign, killing another driver. The police said they will be downloading data from the black box to make the case against him.

And, last but not least, I know of a couple of runaway Toyota incidents. 2 occurred while parking, one of which was fatal. In another accident within the last month, a woman driver had complained to her husband that the car had started accelerating by itself on several occasions. The last time it did, she died.

I don't buy Toyota's claim that it's caused by a friction device on the accelerator.

A.K. Boomer
02-04-2010, 12:02 AM
I wouldn't want on-star for nothing --- what happens if you ever have to run from the law?

It's not like they give you a mute button and an accelerator override cancel switch!

Mad Scientist
02-04-2010, 12:40 AM
As big brother keeps finding new and more interesting ways of watching over us the real purpose of this is to slowly condition us into being the perfect slave. We are lead to believe that this is freedom even though all aspects of our lives will be tightly monitored and controlled.

Black_Moons
02-04-2010, 03:51 AM
I recall a study where tribal men only work 28 hours a week.. That includes everything we do after comming home from a 30~40 hour a week, ie cooking, cleaning, travel(Hunting?), etc

Where did we go wrong with out technology and 'advancement'?

Of course, Part of that is the whole bull 'YOU NEED A JOB!' thing.
I say its bull because many companies are engineered to create work.
they produce products that don't last, require freqent service repairs, allways come out with new models and discontinue the old to say they can no longer be repaired when they quickly break down.

example: cars have been changing every year for over a century, And why? why would you need a new car model every damn year? What was wrong with last years model?
Why must every cars parts be non compatable with eachother and discontinued ANY parts support after 10 years? To force you to buy a new one and scrap the old one.

Why? 'Because people need a job building cars! you would'nt wanna put GM outta buiness! millions of people would be unemployed'
Wrong, Millions of people would be able to do something better for socity then build crappy cars that can't be fixed and don't last.

In a decent world, after a fender bender I would be able to buy a new body panel for my car 10+ year old car, matched to the factory paint, for about the same cost as the raw sheet metal from metalmart, As it would be a standardised product across 2,000,000+ cars still on the roads, stamped out in masses, still being sold new today.. after all, it worked 10 years ago, its design did'nt suddenly break did it?
Or at the very least, a cheap brake light cover.. that could be standardised across at least more then 1 model that only a few hundred thousand of where ever made, and not cost $100 for whats basicly a $3 plastic part.

Evan
02-04-2010, 04:11 AM
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."


George Orwell, 1984

Weston Bye
02-04-2010, 06:15 AM
Why would they want to watch me? Or any of you for that matter. Seems like a good idea for the power and control freaks out there, but impractical. Who is going to pay the salaries for all those watchers? Certainly my personal taxes wouldn't pay for my watcher. Computers? Yeah, sure.

If they can't keep track of an underwear bomber, someone who should have been watched, how and why bother with common citizens?

The only reason I can think of is that it may be easier.

- Like taking guns from law-abiding citizens rather than from the criminals - it's easier.

- Like searching little old ladies at airports - it's easier.

Dawai
02-04-2010, 06:28 AM
slowly condition us into being the perfect slave

Already done that.. it's called being a "debt slave" and yes.. they almost done away with bankruptcy cause too many were getting out of it.

djinh
02-04-2010, 06:58 AM
Better turn off your cell phone too, with new cells a few years back tracking devices were put into them. I would guess they could estimate your speed if you were in a car. The truckers have been using satellite tracking for a while now. A friend of mine got nailed in a speed trap he wasn't speeding in. He hit the "accident" button as soon as he was pulled over (that records in hard form the last 20 minutes). A high dollar lawyer from the tracking company was sent down to represent him and the charge was dropped. John

The tracking is not in the phone, even though some phones have GPS receivers these days. The tracking is in the network, the operator's base stations can easily triangulate your signal with surprising accuracy.

Always turn your phone off and/or leave it at home if you don't want a permanent record made of your whereabouts. Of course, *if* they are watching you, the fact that you turn your phone off can be enough reason for them to come and break down your door with weapons drawn. Happens regularly.

Alex

Evan
02-04-2010, 07:11 AM
Why would they want to watch me? Or any of you for that matter.

Because they can.


Britain To Put CCTV Cameras Inside Private Homes

Read More http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/08/britain-to-put-cctv-cameras-inside-private-homes/#ixzz0eZJAhCz5

Willy
02-04-2010, 08:24 AM
While Big Brother has neither the resources or the desire to watch all of us...they can!
But let's not get paranoid, face it there are bigger fish to fry than you and I.

While just about anyone can obtain eavesdropping software that once installed on someones cell phone would enable that phone to be remotely monitored...whether the phone is on or off, as long as it contains a battery. But the catch is of course that in order to install the software one has to obtain the intended phone first, not always an easy proposition.

But the FBI in several high profile cases against organized crime has been using remotely installed software in order to gain evidence for years. That's right, if they think you warrant the effort they can listen in on any cell phone they choose, as long as it has a battery installed.

This from a CNET News article from 2006.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html



The U.S. Commerce Department's security office warns (http://www.wasc.noaa.gov/wrso/security_guide/cellular.htm#Cellular%20Phones) that "a cellular telephone can be turned into a microphone and transmitter for the purpose of listening to conversations in the vicinity of the phone." An article (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/4239e29e-02f2-11da-84e5-00000e2511c8.html) in the Financial Times last year said mobile providers can "remotely install a piece of software on to any handset, without the owner's knowledge, which will activate the microphone even when its owner is not making a call."


While it's good to be aware of the surveillance capabilities of Big Brother, I also realize that I don't warrant the time and expense of government scrutuny...yet.

airsmith282
02-04-2010, 09:00 AM
idots cause accidents and of course any insurance company will tell you ther eis no such thing as an accident someone is always the dumb idot that causes the problem,,collision etc..

i can handel most cars at upto 150 mph with no problems privideing the car can go that fast,,i told my dad i should have been a race car driver.. most people get scared once they hit 100 mph then you gota problem, the bigger problem is there is no where that is maintained well enough to keep thoes hi speeds up and there is always some one near you or infront of you so most times 80 mph is fine and what a fine it gets you when you get pulled over,

i behave my self now sence the last extream speeding ticket, but i wouder why we are simply not allowed or they dont just do up lanes for us guys that want to pin the needel for all its worth..

anyhow tickets are a way of telling us if we dont do as we are told we will eventualy have to mortage the house to pay the fines off,,

i also belive there are to many people on the road that should not be allowed to drive a car or anything for that matter..

our insurance rates are not do to speeders.. its cause here are to many morons onthe road that never should have passed a drving test or are to old to dirve anymnore cause they cant see or dont pay any attention while drving, the worst thing i hate other wise is people yacking on a cell phone and people that let there dogs run lose in the car or other pets.

really if you want to take the dog for a dirve then lock it up in the back. that bugger gets in your face while driving and next thing you know your on the 6pm news then jail or worse ,, wow that was well worth it now wasent it,

sorry for the rant , i got nothing against pets but they have a place and its not in the front seat with the driver nor should people be on the phone while driving etc..

Metalmelter
02-04-2010, 10:18 AM
-Yessir, that's what we've been talking about. I know more than a few people, usually hardcore Libertarian types or just general "all government intrusion is bad" sorts, that hate it, refuse to buy a car made after 1991 (or whenever, opinions vary) and so on.

But as I said, while aspects of it are a bit Orwellian for me, when it comes down to it, I don't care what it records, as long as somebody has to physically access a hard connector to download the data.

As soon as it gets wireless, whether short-range RFID (which even then can be read much further away than the makers say) or Bluetooth or anywhere-in-the-country satellite, then I have a problem. Then they'll start having readers at intersections and toll booths, cop cars will have readers and compare the results to what you say ("I wasn't speeding, officer!") and so on.

Or, I can just keep driving my 1966 Oldsmobile that has one sort-of computer in the electronic ignition. Suddenly there's a nuclear war and a bomb goes off nearby? The EMP might advance my timing by five degrees 'til the wave passes. :D

Doc.


It is designed to go wireless with the advent of OBD3 and CANN diagnostics. They are right now hammering out the final protocals of the system. You can find a lot of info on the web about it.

See that little antenna on top of your roof? Antenna's can transmit as well as recieve your radio stations ;)

And in one scenario it works like this: your car develops a driveability condition and a check engine code is initiated. You are of course notified via the dash lamp. The state is also notified and they too notify you of the condition AND you now have X number of days to repair the condition or face a fine. Interesting.....

With technology like that the possibilities are endless. Cops can easily turn off a car while in pursuit by scanning the license plate via software (that technology is already in use to scan for stolen vehicles while driving) and the state initiates a shutdown to the engine via computer. Highway chase no more...

There's good and bad with everything I guess ;)

danlb
02-04-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't think the problem is "big brother is inventing things to snoop on us". We are inventing things that make life more interesting, easier or just plain novel.

The authorities (governments, businesses and parents) are just taking advantage of the fact that any technology can be used in ways that the inventor did not intend.

My ex wife was convinced that her phone was tapped and that the men in black were watching her. The thought we were all being watched. She refused to acknowledge that it would take a team of 5 people (plus their support teams, managers, secretaries, etc) to watch each suspect 24x7. So around 70 percent of all Americans would have to be part of the government to support her delusions that everyone was being spied on.

It's hard to monitor people. I have kids. I know. I've tried :)

Dan

vpt
02-04-2010, 02:00 PM
I keep hearing commercials on the radio about some kind of kid watch deal that goes in a car and records kids driving behaviors. Than they say you can sit down and watch what they were doing.

Evan
02-04-2010, 02:24 PM
The problem isn't the idea that you may be monitored 24/7. That is impossible. The real problem is the use of technology to identify, track and analyze your daily life. You don't need to be followed or seen by a camera for this to become really intrusive.

There currently exist iris scanners that can detect unique eye signatures from a distance of several feet.

Scenario: You buy something using a data based instrument (credit card, debit). While you pay for it the transaction is recorded on video "for security reasons". At the same time your eyes are scanned and a link between your physical attributes and payment ID is established. At some later time you look into a store window and your eyes are scanned. Your apparent interest in the displayed products is tied to your identity by the link to your payment ID.

Harmless? Perhaps you were looking at firearms just to pass the time. Perhaps your next stop is at the bank. Maybe the gun shop just happens to be on the way to the bank from your office. Maybe the "system" doesn't know or care about that and a flag is raised because you look at weapons regularly before going to the bank.

Scenario: You go to the bar and pay with the same instrument. Your presence is confirmed by unobtrusive iris scan. The information is recorded by the credit provider and is added to your dossier. If you make too many outings to the bar your credit is downgraded. The information is also available to prospective employers, insurers, lenders etc.

These are just a couple of countless ways that your privacy may be compromised and have a negative impact on you and your daily existence.

There are already horror stories of how people have been mistakenly identified as a criminal based on erroneous results of fingerprint scanning technology. Face recognition technology is so unreliable that for now it hasn't been widely implemented, but that may change. The authorities don't care about error rates for your sake, only how the error rate impacts their ability to process the data. Once the error rate is deemed low enough to not overload their systems such technologies will be implemented and the fact that it can ruin your life is of no concern to them.

saltmine
02-04-2010, 02:28 PM
Most people don't know it, but many cars and trucks built in the US since 1998 have recorders in their passenger compartments. The recorder is a "dumb" device, and only records things like speed, angular accelleration and impact vectors. Unfortunately, it is a "one-time-use" and must be replaced after an accident. I have seen these devices picked up by the police while investigating an accident. They're never returned.

They usually cost about $300-$400 and can only be bought from the dealer.
They are vehicle specific, and you need the VIN number to purchase one.

I discovered this when we had a Ford van involved in an accident with a dumptruck. The body shop replaced the van's air bag but couldn't get the "air bag" warning light to go out. A little detective work revealed that the body shop had neglected to replace the seatbelt pre-tensioner and the "flight recorder". The pre-tensioner fires a charge about the size of a .410 shotgun shell, to tighten the drivers' seatbelt in the event of a crash...Another "one-time-use" safety device. $150. The "flight recorder" was located in the passenger side kick panel, and cost $450. It is a sealed unit, and it probably requires special equipment to download any data from it. BTW, the "recorder" on an Expedition is on the transmission tunnel between the front seats.
(We found this one when one of my guys put a sheetmetal screw through it's wiring harness, and the vehicle refused to run)
No, the vehicle won't run with the "recorder" disconnected.

I've been told that every car or truck equipped with air bags has a "recorder" installed. I'm not sure if the Europeans or the Japanese cars do, but knowing their style, they probably copied it, not knowing what it was.

The Fixer
02-04-2010, 02:54 PM
They put voice recorders in the Ford pickup trucks sold in Alberta last year last year and the most common recording found after a serious accident was.................................



















"Here hold my beer I'm gonna try somethin' "


lol

camdigger
02-04-2010, 03:03 PM
Fixer see post # 22

For the less worldly and furreners "Pilsner" is a Molson brand name of a low end, cheap and nasty beer available primarily on the Canadian Prairies... Kinda like any Anheuser-Busch product, but still 5% ethanol...:D

I'll be OK though, I drive a just barely pre Onstar GM pickup.... :D:D:D

The Fixer
02-04-2010, 03:07 PM
I guess that's what happens when you only read the first couple pages....

Hmmm I see you're from over there! lol

camdigger
02-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Yup born 'n raised.

Many a night of my misspent youth I can recall trying to count the number of rabbits on the label by a dome light:D :D Lemmee see, were there 7 or 9???

Suffice it to say, I wasn't always the respectable member of society I've grown into. Maybe there's hope for the next generation yet!:D ;)

Dawai
02-04-2010, 05:56 PM
Some of you Canucks are actually Georgia Hillbillies that got the seed planted in the wrong part of North America.

Too many similarities.

(my daily driver shop truck is a 78 El Camino).. the 2005 Civic (ute truck) is frustrating me. Won't crank, fuel pump won't turn on. I finally found the relay, you must remove the glove box to access it.

The 1994 Lincoln, it had wiring in it, I purchased it totalled, it would not crank, I physcially traced wiring after the Chilton Schematic was incorrect.. got it to crank after I jumpered the anti-lock brakes and some alarm wire from Ford, not on drawings.

The 1991 CRX here.. well it was mostly aftermarket alarms and wiring, I removed two pounds. I hate wiring on cars. It is one circuit at a time till you find the error, or cut place.. or..

vpt
02-04-2010, 06:00 PM
^ I love my CRX's!

camdigger
02-04-2010, 08:45 PM
Some of you Canucks are actually Georgia Hillbillies that got the seed planted in the wrong part of North America.

Too many similarities.


Why Thankeee

Dawai
02-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Yeah, I can remember a night, moon was full.. I was running about eightiesh or so.. leaning over and looking at the full moon's reflection in the black-and rainbo metalflake front fender.. *1976 Liberty edition Harley FXE..

Aww.. to howl at the moon and be a young in just once more..

One Canuck buddy wants to come go Russian boar hunting with spears.. He is a hockey player.. growed up tough, sleeps on the ground when hunting.. I am too fat to run.. so... Not real sure that is a good idea.


BACK ON TOPIC:? if there is a black box on any of the newer cars I have worked on.. they slipped by me.. seems most the wiring diagrams are wrong anyways.. you don't have a clue what is there. Nor what it takes to actually make it run well..