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JoeFin
02-06-2010, 05:24 PM
New Shanghai bridge collapses, revealing its components to be mostly rubbish & not concrete!

Shanghai Wonder: Bridge Made of Trash Collapses

In an absurd twist of fate and a rather distinct
and unusual statement on the need to recycle, residents of Shanghai got the surprise of their life when earlier this month a major new bridge collapsed, revealing its components to be mostly rubbish and not concrete!

Completed in 2009, the bridge replaced a much older one with a more modern design. It began to collapse after being in operation only a short period; just after Christmas, when cracks appeared in the structure. Some thought the ground might have become unstable or that it might have been the result of the inefficiency of the original construction company.

Subsequent inquiry revealed the latter to be the case. Styrofoam, bags of garbage, scrap wood and plastic waste were used as construction materials in the structure.

http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/rubbish-bridge1.jpg

http://www.weirdasianews.com/2010/02/05/shanghai-wonderbridge-trash-collapses/

And we thought it was only the stuff they sold to the USA

Gee- Who wuld da thunk it

TGTool
02-06-2010, 05:42 PM
And we thought it was only the stuff they sold to the USA

Gee- Who wuld da thunk it

Seems like a reasonable enough expectation. If it's good enough for them, why wouldn't it be good enough for everybody else too? :eek:

.RC.
02-06-2010, 05:47 PM
I can't see any casting sand there.... Perhaps that is just a special order item for exported goods.. :D

clutch
02-06-2010, 05:48 PM
I expect a short trial and a 9mm bullet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19686498/

Clutch

Bill McLeod
02-06-2010, 05:54 PM
what goes around comes around!!!

S_J_H
02-06-2010, 05:55 PM
unreal!
I have a feeling it gets much worse..

Too_Many_Tools
02-06-2010, 05:59 PM
I expect a bullet and a press release.

And the money that was skimmed will still be sitting in Swiss accounts.

Did you read where the Chinese tainted milk that killed thousands of Chinese children was repackaged and is still being sold...in China?

You can assume that the same tainted food and merchandise that was being sold here in the USA is still being sold.

Time for some real regulation with teeth.

TMT

Jim Shaper
02-06-2010, 06:05 PM
I'm all for letting the toxic stuff be sold and consumed here. Seems like a good way to eliminate the people who enable such importations to be profitable. :cool:


So that's mostly tongue in cheek, but there's a reason I don't ingest products of that nation. Self preservation in so many ways...

danlb
02-06-2010, 06:29 PM
It looks to me like they did the typical builder's trash stashing. I worked a construction site where they dropped their lunch trash in partially built walls and buried debris under areas that were going to be paved over. Paint buckets, empty caulk tubes, etc were all stashed where no one would see them till the place was demolished.

They must have been fresh out of casting sand.

Dan

BudB
02-06-2010, 06:29 PM
Great.....I'm travelling across that bridge in about 5 hours! Wish me luck!

Too_Many_Tools
02-06-2010, 06:33 PM
I'm all for letting the toxic stuff be sold and consumed here. Seems like a good way to eliminate the people who enable such importations to be profitable. :cool:


So that's mostly tongue in cheek, but there's a reason I don't ingest products of that nation. Self preservation in so many ways...

Actually you do.

If you live in the United States you have inhaled Chinese air pollution.

Your food is processed by machines with Chinese hardware...and its heavy metal contaminants that do end up in your food products.

You drive roads where when Chinese fasteners fail, you and your family will die.

Poor quality affects any one it touches.

TMT

SpyGuy
02-06-2010, 06:44 PM
Ain't socialism/communism great? It teaches ZERO personal responsibility and ZERO pride in one's work (after all, there is no "individual", only the "collective").

I have an idea, let's try socialism/communism here in the US! Oh wait, we already elected Obama. :mad:

Too_Many_Tools
02-06-2010, 06:48 PM
It looks to me like they did the typical builder's trash stashing. I worked a construction site where they dropped their lunch trash in partially built walls and buried debris under areas that were going to be paved over. Paint buckets, empty caulk tubes, etc were all stashed where no one would see them till the place was demolished.

They must have been fresh out of casting sand.
Dan


More likely the same company that built the bridge also does the local garbage pickups.

That way they get double the profits.

Isn't it great how pro-business and free market work together for the betterment of the company owners.

Too_Many_Tools
02-06-2010, 06:58 PM
Ain't socialism/communism great? It teaches ZERO personal responsibility and ZERO pride in one's work (after all, there is no "individual", only the "collective").

I have an idea, let's try socialism/communism here in the US! Oh wait, we already elected Obama. :mad:

Didn't the United States have a bridge fall down in MN while Bush/Republican Party/Free Range Capitalism were running the Country into the ground?

TMT

kf2qd
02-06-2010, 07:10 PM
Didn't the United States have a bridge fall down in MN while Bush/Republican Party/Free Range Capitalism were running the Country into the ground?

TMT

I know that ALL the worlds problems for the past 2 centuries were caused by the Bush administration... but that bridge predated the Bush administration by many years and the state of Minnesota was responsible for inspecting it... Try to be a bit more rational (it's hard, I know) with your inane political knee jerks.

Jim Shaper
02-06-2010, 07:24 PM
Actually, speaking as a Minnesotan, that bridge failed under a predominantly DEMOCRAT state government.

They were so busy spending new money (running up a deficit), they forgot to take care of the stuff they'd already built.

SpyGuy
02-06-2010, 07:28 PM
Didn't the United States have a bridge fall down in MN while Bush/Republican Party/Free Range Capitalism were running the Country into the ground?TMT

LOL...

1. Who said I supported Bush? By any standard of measurement, he's far closer to being a socialist than being a conservative.

2. With only few exceptions, the Republican Party today is nothing more than "Socialism Lite". They only seem right-wing because the Democrats have embraced full-fledged Marxist socialism.

3. Free-range capitalism? You've got to be joking. This country hasn't been free (economically, politically, legally) in a very looooooong time. Do you even know why the housing bubble collapsed with the sub-prime mortgages? (Hint: Socialist GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION in the market.)

4. The bridge that collapsed was built many decades before the Bush presidency. That bridge wasn't built incorrectly: it collapsed from a lack of maintenance over the DECADES of its service. And that was a local/state issue, not a federal one. At least, it would not be a federal issue if the federal government were properly constrained as REQUIRED by the US Constitution.

You graduate from a government indoctrination center (i.e., "public school") sometime in the past 30 years? Too bad you don't understand the founding principles of this country, nor the principals of a free-market economy (yeah, the same principals that grew this country into the greatest nation on Earth in a scant 200 years). Unfortunately, we are backsliding fast toward becoming a second-world nation as we abandon our Constitution and let out-of-control socialist governments (on the federal and state levels) destroy our country from within.

oldtiffie
02-06-2010, 07:30 PM
That is about as bad as it gets.

I'd let the Chinese justice system deal with the matter and the guilty parties.

I daresay that given that there is a lucrative market with people outside of China queuing-up and paying very good money for the executed people's body organs and paying more for Chinese surgeons to undertake the work and given that most of the "beneficiaries" are neither poor nor un-educated there are some considerable ethical issues there too.

I have seen reports - that I can't verify - where the "parts" and surgery have been pre-paid for - and "matched" to miminise the risk of rejection - and that the cadaver is still - warm and the "beneficiary" is on the "table" waiting.

I can not say that any who "benefit" are not from here in OZ or the USA either.

Can anyone else assure me that it isn't?

I guess that bridge and the outcomes are good examples of bad engineering but good recycling.

My guess is that there is a lot of corruption in China - even endemic - but I'd guess that is not restricted to Asia - even if the bridge collapse episode is.

Evan
02-06-2010, 07:50 PM
What a load of crap you guys. Nobody has a lock on incompetence or poor maintenance practises.

Take your pick: 34 of these collapses are in the USA

Year Structure Location
1875 Portage Bridge Portage (town), New York, USA
1876 Ashtabula River Railroad Disaster Ashtabula, Ohio, USA
1879 Tay Bridge disaster Dundee, Scotland
1887 Busey bridge disaster Boston, USA
1889 South Fork Dam Johnstown, Pennsylvania, United States
1890 Walnut Grove Dam Wickenburg, Arizona Territory, United States
1896 Point Ellice Bridge Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
1904 Eden Railroad Bridge Collapse Eden, Colorado
1907 Quebec Bridge Quebec City, Quebec, Canada
1916 Desná Dam Desná, Czech Republic
1925 Llyn Eigiau dam, Coedty reservoir dam Dolgarrog, North Wales, UK
1928 St. Francis Dam Valencia, California, Los Angeles County, United States
1934 Seta river railroad bridge Otsu, Japan
1937 Kasai River Bridge Collapse Kasai, Democratic Republic of the Congo
1938 Upper Steel Arch Bridge Niagara Falls, New York, USA
1939 Sandö Bridge Kramfors, Ångermanland, Sweden
1940 First Tacoma Narrows Bridge Tacoma, Washington
1942 Chesapeake City Bridge Chesapeake, USA
1945 Ludendorff Bridge Remagen, Germany
1949 Inotani wire bridge Toyama, Japan
1951 Duplessis bridge collapse Quebec, Canada
1952 Footbridge at Harrow & Wealdstone station Wealdstone, UK
1953 Tangiwai railway bridge Tangiwai Tangiwai, New Zealand
1957 Rail bridge near St Johns station London-Lewisham, UK
1958 Second Narrows Bridge Vancouver, Canada
1962 King Street Bridge (Melbourne) Melbourne, Australia
1963 Baldwin Hills Reservoir Los Angeles, California, United States
1964 General Rafael Urdaneta Bridge Maracaibo, Venezuela
1966 Heron Road Bridge Ottawa, Canada
1967 Queen Juliana Bridge Willemstad, Curacao
1967 Silver Bridge (bridge) Point Pleasant, West Virginia
1968 Ronan Point collapse London, England
1970 West Gate Bridge Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
1970 Britannia Bridge Menai Strait, Wales, UK
1970 Cleddau Bridge Pembroke Dock and Neyland, Wales, UK
1971 South Bridge Koblenz Koblenz, Germany
1972 Buffalo Creek Flood West Virginia, United States
1972 Sidney Lanier Bridge Brunswick, Georgia, USA
1974 Makahali River bridge Baitadi, Nepal
1975 Tasman Bridge Hobert, Australia
1975 Banqiao Dam collapse China
1975 Banqiao and Shimantan Dams China
1976 Teton Dam Idaho, United States
1976 Reichsbruecke Vienna, Austria
1977 Granville Railway Bridge Sydney, Australia
1978 Hartford Civic Center Hartford, Connecticut
1978 Willow Island Cooling Tower Willow Island, West Virginia
1979 Kemper Arena Kansas City, Missouri
1979 Vysílač Krašov Bezvěrov, Czechoslovakia
1980 Sunshine Skyway Bridge Saint Petersburg, Florida, USA
1980 Hayakawa wire bridge Saito, Kyūshū, Japan
1981 Hyatt Regency walkway collapse Kansas City
1982 Aviamotornaya Escalator Collapse Moscow, Russia
1982 Lawn Lake Dam Rocky Mountain National Park, United States
1982 Tous Dam Valencia, Spain
1982 Senior Road Tower Collapse Missouri City, Texas, USA
1983 Mianus River Bridge Greenwich, Connecticut, USA
1985 Val di Stava Dam collapse Italy
1986 Hotel New World Disaster Little India near Serangoon Road, Singapore
1987 L'Ambiance Plaza collapse Bridgeport, Connecticut
1987 Schoharie Creek Bridge collapse Fort Hunter, New York, USA
1988 Aschaffenburg Main River Freeway Bridge Aschaffenburg, Bavaria, Germany
1988 Sultan Abdul Halim ferry terminal bridge Butterworth, Penang, Malaysia
1989 Tennessee Hatchie River Bridge Tennessee, USA
1989 Cypress Street Viaduct Oakland, California, USA
1991 Astram Line steel bridge Hiroschima, Japan
1992 Armand Césari Stadium disaster Bastia
1993 Claiborne Avenue Bridge New Orleans, USA
1993 CSXT Big Bayou Canot rail bridge Mobile, Alabama, USA
1993 Highland Towers collapse Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
1994 Seongsu Bridge Seoul, South Korea
1995 Cave Creek disaster Paparoa National Park, New Zealand
1995 Sampoong Department Store collapse Seoul, Korea
1996 Baikong Railway bridge Ruyuan, Guangdong, China
1996 Koror-Babeldaob Bridge Koror and Babeldaob, Palau
1997 Opuha Dam New Zealand
1997 Maccabiah bridge collapse Tel Aviv, Israel
1999 Gdynia Shipyard Crane Crash Gdynia, Poland
2000 Pier No. 34 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
2000 Highway 15 Overpass Collapse Montréal, Québec
2000 Hoan Bridge Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
2001 Hintze Ribeiro bridge Entre-os-Rios, Castelo de Paiva, Portugal
2001 Asagiri footbridge Akashi, Japan
2001 Queen Isabella Causeway Port Isabel, Texas, USA
2001 Kadalundi River rail bridge India
2001 Versailles wedding hall collapse Jerusalem
2001 Collapse of the World Trade Center New York City
2002 Vodní nádrž Soběnov Soběnov, Czech Republic
2002 Buran Hangar Collapse Baikonur
2002 I-40 bridge disaster Webbers Falls, Oklahoma, USA
2002 Rafiganj rail bridge India
2002 Interstate 95 Howard Avenue Overpass Bridgeport, Connecticut, USA
2003 Kinzua Bridge Kinzua Bridge State Park, USA
2003 Sgt. Aubrey Cosens VC Memorial Bridge Latchford, Ontario, Canada
2003 2003 Chicago balcony collapse Chicago
2004 Big Bay Dam Mississippi, United States
2004 Camará Dam Brasil
2004 Collapse of the Terminal 2E roof, Charles de Gaulle Airport Paris, France
2004 Loncomilla Bridge San Javier, Chile
2004 Igor I. Sikorsky Memorial Bridge Connecticut, USA
2004 Big Nickel Road Bridge Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
2004 Mungo Bridge Cameroon
2005 Shakidor Dam Pakistan
2005 Taum Sauk reservoir Lesterville, Missouri, United States
2005 Almuñécar Motorway bridge Almuñécar, Province of Granada, Spain
2005 Caracas-La Guaira highway, Viaduct #1 Tacagua, Venezuela
2005 Veligonda Railway Bridge India
2006 De la Concorde Overpass collapse Montréal, Québec
2006 Bad Reichenhall Ice Rink roof collapse Bad Reichenhall, Germany
2006 Katowice Trade Hall roof collapse Katowice, Poland
2006 Run Pathani Bridge Collapse Pakistan
2006 Yekaterinburg bridge collapse Yekaterinburg, Russia
2006 Nimule bridge collapse Nimule, Kenya
2006 Bhagalpur Pedestrian Bridge Collapse Bhagalpur, India
2006 Eziama Bridge Collapse Eziama, Nigeria
2007 Forshan bridge disaster Forshan, China
2007 Punjagutta Flyover Bridge Collapse Punjagutta, India
2007 Tuo River bridge Fenguan, China
2007 Harp Road bridge Oakville, Washington, USA
2007 MacArthur Maze Oakland, California, USA
2007 Shershah Bridge - Section of the Northern Bypass, Karachi Karachi, Pakistan
2007 Can Tho Bridge Can Tho, Vitnam
2007 Guinea Bridge Collapse Guinea
2007 Chhinchu suspension bridge Nepalgunj, Birendranagar, Nepal
2007 I-35W Mississippi River Bridge collapse Minneapolis, Minnesota
2007 Collapse of bridge over the Jiantuo River during construction Hunan, China
2007 Collapse of Cần Thơ Bridge Tây Nam Bộ, Vietnam
2008 Cedar Rapids Railway Bridge Collapse Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
2009 Historical Archive of the City of Cologne collapse Cologne, Germany
2009 Situ Gintung Dam Tangerang, Indonesia
2009 Collapse of the Block 7 of Lotus Riverside Shanghai, China
2009 Broadmeadow viaduct Malahide, Ireland
2009 2009 Korba chimney collapse Korba, India
2009 Palma de Mallorca House Collapse Palma de Mallorca, Spain
2009 Kota Chambal Bridge Collapse Kota, India

JoeFin
02-06-2010, 07:57 PM
I have an idea, let's try socialism/communism here in the US! Oh wait, we already elected Obama. :mad:

edited by JoeFin

Lew Hartswick
02-06-2010, 08:31 PM
(sniped)


And what do I see as "location"?? [ Location: No Cal.]
probably one of the electors of Pelosi. :-)
...lew...

oldtiffie
02-06-2010, 08:38 PM
Good one Evan.

Perhaps the people who caused it ate off china crockery (old 'crock?) or was it silver service?

Of course - of course - they blame "them down-stairs" - musta been the servants.

You are correct regarding two bridges here in OZ:
1962 King Street Bridge (Melbourne) Melbourne, Australia - which partially collapsed due to bad design and welding - twice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Street_Bridge_(Melbourne)

1975 Tasman Bridge Hobart, Australia - 'coz a bloody ship rammed it and brought down at least one span
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasman_Bridge_disaster

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=tasman+bridge+disaster&meta=&aq=0&oq=tasman+bridge&fp=2bcf0a553a95b437

And the West Gate Bridge, Melbourne where a cantilever over a river (Yarra) collapsed during construction. It has needed several repairs etc. since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Gate_Bridge

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=west+gate+bridge+collapse&meta=&aq=2&oq=west+gate+&fp=2bcf0a553a95b437

JoeFin
02-06-2010, 08:46 PM
And what do I see as "location"?? [ Location: No Cal.]
probably one of the electors of Pelosi. :-)
...lew...

Nope ..... not my district

But I got to say she is looking pretty good calling for an End to Health Insurance Company's exemption from Anti-Trust Laws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne3nVc26xFo

Jim Shaper
02-06-2010, 08:50 PM
Be a Man and just admit it - its the color of his skin you don't like

Lets just quit playing these intelectually lying games of trying to associate his policies with socialism and lets just "Man-Up" and admit it. You don't like the fact a __________ got into office



I wouldn't care if he was purple and green with antennae - the stuff he thinks is good for our nation is horrible and I never wanted him elected. That he happens to be african-indian whatever doesn't weigh in on my distaste for the mess he and the reigning democrats have thrown us into.

I never preached bush (didn't even care for him much), but he was far less toxic in 8 years than bama has been in just one.

lazlo
02-06-2010, 08:56 PM
And we thought it was only the stuff they sold to the USA

They discovered the same problem in the Sichuan earthquake -- thousands of children were crushed in schools built the same way, inciting protests by parents. Local police harassed the protestors and the government criticized them. At least one human rights advocate who championed their cause was arrested and never seen again.

HBO has a documentary currently running about it -- "The Tears of Sichuan." The film crew was there at ground zero, and was physically beaten by government officials because they were filming the rubble of the schools. The concrete was porous like in your picture, and filled with what could be best described as junk (shoes, tires, what looked like lawn chairs, coke bottles...).

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/news/science/topics/earthquakes/sichuan_province_china/index.html

SpyGuy
02-06-2010, 08:56 PM
Be a Man and just admit it - its the color of his skin you don't like

Lets just quit playing these intelectually lying games of trying to associate his policies with socialism and lets just "Man-Up" and admit it. You don't like the fact a __________ got into office

Them's fightin' words!

You're a typical lib-tard... if a person rationally disagree with Obama's POLICIES, then you call him a "racist" to try to intimidate him into shutting up. But isn't it funny how it's always those on the LEFT who are obsessed with the color of people's skin. As for me, I couldn't care if Obama was black, white, green, or purple. It's the POLICIES, stupid!

And let's not forget which is the political party of SLAVERY (both then and now). Yes, "affirmative action", unlimited welfare, illegal immigration, etc., are just more cunning and less obvious ways of keeping minorities on the "plantation" of servitude.

And btw...

#1: I rank Pelosi, Reid, Boxer, ex-Kennedy, and many other lily-white LEFTISTS/SOCIALISTS/STATISTS right up there with Obama as public enemies of this nation and of our Constitution. And Bush and Clinton were each almost as bad as this bunch. (Of course, Clinton was our first "black" president, so I guess I'm being racist again.)

#2: I'd vote for Alan Keyes any day of the week versus any of the other clowns who've ran for President in the past six presidential election cycles. Hmmm.... what color is his skin again? I don't care. But I know you do.
#3: What makes you think that I'm white?


When we let Greedy Wall St. Banks run the country into insolvency - that's the Democratic way!

When we try to stop Corporations from denying coverage to people who have been paying their premiums on time for decades - that's Socialism

Hmmm... lets see. When Obama was just a newly-seated JUNIOR US Senator, he raked in $126,349 in campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, second only to the very senior Chris Dodd (D). John Kerry (D) was #3. Hmmm... which greedy organizations were at the heart of the sub-prime mortgage fiasco? How did an inexperienced no-name senator (at that time) from Illinois get to the top of the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac gravy train? Have you heard of Franklin Raines?

And who did Obama just give billions of taxpayer dollars to in bailouts? Would that be taxpayers in the form of refunds so we could afford our own medical insurance or care? Oh no, he stole that money from us and gave it to his big-donor Wall St friends.

One of the major reasons (if not THE reason) that health care insurance is so expensive is because of government meddling through regulations. The government created the very problems it is now claiming it wants to fix. And if we were allowed to keep more of OUR EARNED INCOME, then paying for our personal use of the best health care system in the world would not be so onerous.

Get a clue you idiot.

oldtiffie
02-06-2010, 08:57 PM
Here are some more lists of bridge collapses:

General:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_structural_failures_and_collapses

China:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=bridge+collapse+china&meta=&aq=0&oq=bridge+collapse+chi&fp=2bcf0a553a95b437

USA:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=bridge+collapse+usa&meta=&aq=0&oq=bridge+collapse+US&fp=2bcf0a553a95b437

SpyGuy
02-06-2010, 09:18 PM
But I got to say she is looking pretty good calling for an End to Health Insurance Company's exemption from Anti-Trust Laws

Bwahaha... the reason the health insurance companies have virtual monopolies in their markets is because the GOVERNMENT prohibits free-market insurance competition across state lines. As I said earlier, the government CREATED THE PROBLEM (just as government created the sub-prime mortgage mess).

Another major reason health care insurance is so expensive is because the GOVERNMENT dictates that they cover all kinds of absurd and expensive things that most normal people never want nor require (but that most liberals love).

And let's not forget the outrageous costs of giving "free" care to the MILLIONS of illegal aliens that stream across our open borders every year. You know, the borders that are supposed to be secured in accordance with one of the FEW Federal tasks mandated in the US Constitution...

Btw, I have to pity any man who thinks Pelosi is ever "looking pretty good". :eek:

Ken_Shea
02-06-2010, 09:20 PM
If you think about it, China, the worlds most prolific counterfeiter of everything imaginable, counterfeit bridges over the truly engineered and constructed bridge should not surprise us, wanna buy one of their cars?

lazlo
02-06-2010, 09:23 PM
HBO has a documentary currently running about it -- "The Tears of Sichuan."

I just checked and the full title, if you want to search your DVR for it, is China's Unnatural Disaster: The Tears of Sichuan Province (http://www.hbo.com/documentaries/chinas-unnatural-disaster-tears-of-sichuan-province/index.html).

Evan
02-06-2010, 09:24 PM
GET REAL. Politicians don't run the country, vested interests do. The elected figureheads are sock puppets. The system operates on the "Buy a Vote" principle. Numerous examples exist. Just one is the Sonny Bono Copyright extension act, purchased by the Disney coalition in the year it passed for the paltry sum of 6.5 million in campaign contributions. Corporate copyright now lasts for 120 years.

Another glaring example was the Byrd Amendment. This directed the Dept of Commerce to collect countervailing duties on imports and pay the duties directly to the companies that complained that they "might be injured" by the imports. This is illegal under international agreements to which the US is a signatory.

Another example was a directive passed to the office of the chairman of the FCC instructing him to implement certain regulations that had the effect of strangling Internet radio. The document was from the office of Senator "Hollywood" Hollings in the form of an attachment to an e-mail. This was leaked by persons unknown complete with correct e-mail headers and the creator information in the document showed that it was actually written in the offices of the Recording Industry Association of America.

Politicians do not run the government.

lazlo
02-06-2010, 09:25 PM
GET REAL. Politicians don't run the country, vested interests do. The elected figureheads are sock puppets. The system operates on the "Buy a Vote" principle.

Ain't that the truth.

Is Canada's government as corrupt as ours? That's an honest question.

spope14
02-06-2010, 09:29 PM
There is a huge dam in China that is expected to fail at some time in the near future. Do not rememner the name, but it is big as Hoover Dam.

The bridge in Minn. failed due to decades of "saving a few bucks". Heck, three decades of politicians both federal and state saved a few bucks, made us taxpayers happy, and in the end, the bridge failed and we are all surprised? People knew of the poor design for years prior, but "save a few bucks, it will hold..." The US built a huge infrastructure, then as a country we failed to do the Preventative Maintenance (PM) to keep it up, thinking the work of the 50's, 60's and 70's would hold out forever. Anyone involved in anything "public works related" can tell you that PM is absolutely necessary, but hey, we keep tax rates down for a few election cycles, those people are heros, and the ones stuck "with the bag" are the goats. Not defending Bush or Obama. I was Mayor of our city, left holding the bag for infrastructure left unkept, taxes had to be gathered to do simple things like fix collapsed sewers, fix 18 inch deep potholes, fix fire hydrants that looked pretty but would not open, and do new roads.

Inepitiude has no "party". Trust me, you do not win elections by saying "our roads and infrastructure are hideous, we need to fix them and pay for them". People will vote for the one who ignores this and says "I will keep taxes low and cut the budget" and the person will lead to another term or few of "head in the sand". Therefore, to win, people ignore the problems or hope that some windfall will help defray the costs, or they pray to all hell that the bridge that is rusted through will make it for a few more years.

Back to China though, this is a country that really is not that far off of being third world throughout most of its land mass, it is a country that still has its regional feudal lords, though the term is now "communist officials". This is a small example of failure, just wait until that dam lets go and hundreds of thousands downstream get killed.

Evan
02-06-2010, 09:30 PM
The past Liberal government was. Kickbacks were the order of the day. So far no such scandal has emerged regarding the Conservative government but I would not trust anybody that wants political power, especially at the top of the pile. It certainly isn't for the salary.

JoeFin
02-06-2010, 09:43 PM
Them's fightin' words!

You're a typical lib-tard... if a person rationally disagree with Obama's POLICIES, then you call him a "racist" to try to intimidate him into shutting up. But isn't it funny how it's always those on the LEFT who are obsessed with the color of people's skin. As for me, I couldn't care if Obama was black, white, green, or purple. It's the POLICIES, stupid!



edited by JoeFin

recoilless
02-06-2010, 09:45 PM
was on Evan's list or not. That area was the beneficiary of untold million$ of Federal dollars for decades leading up to Katrina in the form of ACE projects and related upgrades. A miserable failure and prime case of lack of oversight between fed/state/local gov'ts.

Tony Ennis
02-06-2010, 09:51 PM
I suspect the Chinese government treats their own people far worse than they treat us.

Mcruff
02-06-2010, 09:59 PM
The Sunshine skyway bridge did not collapse, it was hit by the Blackthorn in january of 1980 and then hit again by the Summit venture 5 months later in May on one of its main support columns, crushing it. Over a 1000' of bridge fell in the water and several vehicles including a greyhound bus drove off the bridge in the fog and rain and fell some 150' to the water below.
I know, I lived there then an remember it being on the news quite vividly.

J Tiers
02-06-2010, 10:06 PM
Actually, speaking as a Minnesotan, that bridge failed under a predominantly DEMOCRAT state government.

They were so busy spending new money (running up a deficit), they forgot to take care of the stuff they'd already built.

If you are a Minnesotan, you'd presumably know that the bridge collapsed NOT because it hadn't been maintained, but PRIMARILY because it had been improperly calculated and built...... The gussets should have been of at least double the thickness that they really were. The design had very little redundancy, as soon as one part failed, it was going down.

And it was in fact being maintained when it collapsed, which was another reason, because the overload of bridge deck construction equipment was too much for the not-as-good-as-it-should-have-been strength.

I used to live not too far from where that bridge was. A reasonable bicycle ride from it, a bit South of the 94 bridge.


What a load of crap you guys. Nobody has a lock on incompetence or poor maintenance practises.

Take your pick: 34 of these collapses are in the USA

Ah, more crap......

I'll bet not very many of the US collapses, or those in most other places, for that matter, were due to the level of fraud and obvious "counterfeit construction" that it is said that the chinese bridge had.

That said, I'll also bet that the styrofoam etc are not in the beams, but in ancillary structure..... The picture appears to show a side barrier which is probably not at all structural as far as the bridge standing up. Which is not to excuse any of it, naturally.

Bridges fall down, because that is a lower energy state than standing up. They are all the time "trying" to fall down.

And every one WILL fall down sometime. The idea is to have that happen after much use, and long after it is paid for.

Too_Many_Tools
02-06-2010, 10:13 PM
I know that ALL the worlds problems for the past 2 centuries were caused by the Bush administration... but that bridge predated the Bush administration by many years and the state of Minnesota was responsible for inspecting it... Try to be a bit more rational (it's hard, I know) with your inane political knee jerks.

Interesting how you jump me and not Spyguy for insane political knee jerks.

Is that how conservative bullies do it at the playground?

The simple truth is if Bush had been doing what he should have been doing to protect the interests of Americans, he would have had funding infrastructure maintainance properly and the MN bridge's inspection would have shown that it was ready to fall down.

That TRILLION dollars Bush spent would have gone a long way repairing our Nation's infrastructure.

TMT

oldtiffie
02-06-2010, 10:15 PM
GET REAL. Politicians don't run the country, vested interests do. The elected figureheads are sock puppets. The system operates on the "Buy a Vote" principle. Numerous examples exist. Just one is the Sonny Bono Copyright extension act, purchased by the Disney coalition in the year it passed for the paltry sum of 6.5 million in campaign contributions. Corporate copyright now lasts for 120 years.

Another glaring example was the Byrd Amendment. This directed the Dept of Commerce to collect countervailing duties on imports and pay the duties directly to the companies that complained that they "might be injured" by the imports. This is illegal under international agreements to which the US is a signatory.

Another example was a directive passed to the office of the chairman of the FCC instructing him to implement certain regulations that had the effect of strangling Internet radio. The document was from the office of Senator "Hollywood" Hollings in the form of an attachment to an e-mail. This was leaked by persons unknown complete with correct e-mail headers and the creator information in the document showed that it was actually written in the offices of the Recording Industry Association of America.

Politicians do not run the government.

Good points Evan.

Which raises the point or question/s:
- does the USA have a government that is "of the people by the people ............. ";

- if it doesn't, what sort of Government is there - and effectively whose Government is it - and who is it governing for whom?

Perhaps its more like China in that regard than many will realise or admit (to).

If the predominant parties are dependent upon donations to survive and if they become almost indistinguishable from each other and if both are beholding to "others" who are neither elected nor appointed to Office - where are you going - and when will you get there?

Is there any turning back?

And what if those countries and sovereign funds who are funding the US deficit "call in" the promises that were made to them or sell off the USA "paper" ("Government Bonds" and "stock") that they hold?

And do you really think that those "Bond and Paper-holders" aren't or don't "donate" or lobby or twist US arms as well?

Perhaps there are a lot of bridges that are in a state of collapse that need re-building or repairing.

lazlo
02-06-2010, 10:27 PM
The gussets should have been of at least double the thickness that they really were. The design had very little redundancy, as soon as one part failed, it was going down.

There are hundreds of bridges in the US built with the same gusset plate design. The NTSB said the gussets were undersized, but it was really an issue of design margin: the maintainers had caked 2" of additional road surface (a mixture of asphalt and concrete) over the years that increased the dead load by 20%, and to make matters worse, and the Minnesota DOT parked over 600,000 lbs of construction vehicles and sand on the bridge at it's weakest point when it collapsed. That was way more than it was ever designed to support.

The final NTSB report claims that the bridge was correctly maintained, but the June 2006 Minnesota DOT report discusses the bridge's potential for collapse:

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/hottopics/35w/06_br_%209340%20.pdf

Long Term Repair Recommendations

• The long term plans for this river crossing need to be defined with replacement, redecking, etc. Due to the “Fracture Critical” configuration of the main river spans
and the problematic “crossbeam” details, and fatigue cracking in the approach spans, eventual replacement of the entire structure would be preferable.

• If bridge replacement is significantly delayed, the bridge should be re-decked. The design of the main river spans do not allow for deck widening. Any re-decking
contract should also include a complete re-painting of the superstructure, elimination of the hinge joint in span #2, and reconfiguration of the deck drainage
system.

J Tiers
02-06-2010, 10:32 PM
Good points Evan.

Which raises the point or question/s:
- does the USA have a government that is "of the people by the people ............. ";

- if it doesn't, what sort of Government is there - and effectively whose Government is it - and who is it governing for whom?



Having heard about the Aus government, I would suppose that there is no lack of blame right there at home for you.

You must face the fact that ALL governments attract corruption... this is because ALL people are corrupt.... Yes, even you who read this, YOU are corrupt......

The difference is that some governments successfully prolong their corruption, killing or imprisoning dissidents.

In others, popular pressure forces at least some cleanup. There is no need to believe that you will ever clean it up, it is not in teh nature of people to run a "clean" government.

But there is a definite difference...... Any bull crap about the US government being hopelessly corrupt etc, must deal with the fact that there is a regular parade of jailed former members...... No, it is just ordinarily corrupt.

And, in a truly corrupt town, you need to pay to get normal ordinary minor government functions to work. This is not the case in any US cities I know about.... The St Louis area has now jailed at least three various representatives, city or state, precisely FOR improper activity.

You may either point and say "told yah so"... or note that the people concerned GOT JAILED. In a truly corrupt town they would not get jailed, they'd get rich.

before you crow about corruption, you should experience a REAL dose of corruption..... Where you pay extra to get your driver's license, to get a construction permit, to get a telephone, or do basically ANYthing.... Such places normally even have a name for the bribe that is always expected.

The US is squeaky clean by comparison, with all its faults.

You almost surely would NOT like an actual REAL clean government with strict justice....... You'd be in jail.

J Tiers
02-06-2010, 10:54 PM
There are hundreds of bridges in the US built with the same gusset plate design. The NTSB said the gussets were undersized, but it was really an issue of design margin:

Of course... but the design margin that was ASSUMED was not the REAL one. Apparently, this was discovered after going back to the design documents.

With the proper thickness of gussets, it quite probably would not have collapsed when and how it did.

I read that report...... Nothing in it shows a dangerous condition..... many faults, and places where progressive problems need to be corrected. Not at all unusual for a structure that has been out in the weather for 40 years.

It recommended preparing for replacement... not because the bridge needed to be closed and torn down, but because the inevitable degradation would become difficult and uneconomical to fix within the foreseeable future.

And reports like it NEVER call into question the original design..... They point out issues of maintenance regarding keeping the structure "as it was built". So teh gussets were NEVER QUESTIONED until teh collapse made an in-depth inquiry necessary

The report recommended bridge deck work, AND IT WAS BEING DONE at the time of the collapse.

Evan's foamings notwithstanding, the bridge was not particularly poorly maintained, it was not built of trash, etc.

It WAS however, built with insufficient thickness of gussets. Not because someone pocketed the difference, but because someone screwed up, and the screwup was not found.

Despite that, the bridge held for 40 years, and absent the extra load of maintenance equipment and materials, probably would have stood another 20 years before replacement.

lazlo
02-06-2010, 10:54 PM
before you crow about corruption, you should experience a REAL dose of corruption..... Where you pay extra to get your driver's license, to get a construction permit, to get a telephone, or do basically ANYthing.... Such places normally even have a name for the bribe that is always expected

We definitely have it a Hell of a lot better than China -- we don't execute people for posting political blogs, don't extensively filter the Internet feed to eradicate all foreign press and information sources like Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica, etc. and we don't forceably harvest organs from convicted criminals. But we sure aren't squeaky clean either.


But there is a definite difference...... Any bull crap about the US government being hopelessly corrupt etc, must deal with the fact that there is a regular parade of jailed former members....

When's the last time we've had a jailed Congressman? Hell, Ted Stevens was re-elected after he'd already been indicted of fraud and racketeering for taking hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes from an International Oil Services company (Veco Corporation) :rolleyes: And to keep things Bi-Partisan, Willie Jefferson still hasn't gone to jail after the FBI caught him with a $90,000 bribe in his freezer from the Nigerian government in return for a telcom contract, and the subsequent FBI investigation revealed over $2.4 million on bribes received during his tenure.

But even Congressmen who are caught red handed, like the Keating 5, are usually just censored -- "Don't do that again." :rolleyes:

And most importantly, no one went to jail for the Credit Default Swap debacle that killed the world's economy.

I'd say we're a functioning Oligarchy (like a functioning alcoholic). At the local level, the corruption is minimized, but at the State and especially Federal Level, we're ruled by rich special interests, whether that's corporations, Unions, Military Contractors, Acorn, ....

Bguns
02-06-2010, 11:35 PM
Bringing up Ted...

He was aquitted entirely, If you remember...

The Hundeds of Thousands, what a joke... His little shack in Girdwood is worth less than a new Mercedes (including the land value) . The work that was suposedly hundreds of thou, looks a lot more like A Chinese bridge with Styro filling...

VECO is another matter... Big business as usual...

Seems some crooked FBI got him arrested and convicted. J Edger H. would be proud...

Free as a Bird now with no political power, just how they wanted him...

We have known this WWII Vet for years.. And know how the crooked political system (It's all we have) ran him down like a dog....

lazlo
02-07-2010, 12:53 AM
Bringing up Ted...

He was aquitted entirely, If you remember...

He was convicted of taking $250,000 from Veco to rebuild his house.
But on appeal a Federal Judge "Set Aside" the ruling because of prosecutorial misconduct. Apparently the FBI sent a witness who performed poorly in a mock trial back to Alaska, and that violates some federal statute.

NPR reported that the prosecution's misconduct, Stevens’ age, and the fact he was no longer in office prompted the Federal Judge to vacate the conviction. The Associated Press independently confirmed NPR’s report.


The Hundeds of Thousands, what a joke... His little shack in Girdwood is worth less than a new Mercedes (including the land value) . The work that was suposedly hundreds of thou, looks a lot more like A Chinese bridge with Styro filling...

The construction was paid for and contracted-out by Bill Harris, the founder of Veco. The construction doubled the size of the house. Looks like a lot more than a Mercedes to me :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Senator_Ted_Stevens_Girdwood_Alaska_house.jpg/800px-Senator_Ted_Stevens_Girdwood_Alaska_house.jpg

But now he's involved in a new corruption investigation -- apparently he redirected $700,000 of a $4 million grant for the National Park Service to Trevor McCabe, a close friend and his former legislative director.

Gotta love politicians.

J Tiers
02-07-2010, 12:53 AM
It did seem as if the Stevens case was hyped up to seem more significant than it really was, or may have been........ and some others of more significance were downplayed....... What happened to Willy? How did he get off the front page?

This is not unknown elsewhere....

The chinese drywall issue, brakes failing on Prius, accelerator on multiple Toyota models............. the actual significance of them is really pretty minor when contrasted with issues that don't get noticed, like pollution issues, alcohol-related issues, etc.

But even admitting hype, in most of the cases there really is a problem, it isn't made-up.

The differing hype reflects the difference in how the media treat the issue. And that is determined by how much the report will boost the ratings.

Old-time newspaper reporting was much less 'second-by-second", no reporting of the "all accelerators all the time" variety. And the muck-raking newspapers had a huge influence on cleaning up corruption.

I can't see the TV news having the "staying power" to do the same. In a day or three, the public is bored with it, and want a change.

As for that house in the picture.............. bribery and corruption is wrong, but if THAT is all he got for it, he's a piker....... Around here that POS would be torn down to put up a REAL house. with 4 or 5 car garage, etc. Like this, most of what you see is one house, with three wings:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/jstanley/bighouse.jpg

lazlo
02-07-2010, 01:24 AM
What happened to Willy? How did he get off the front page?

He was sentenced to 13 years last November, but AFAIK he hasn't gone to jail yet.

I don't know how you drag the case out that long, when you're caught with $90,000 in FBI-marked bills in your freezer :)

MuellerNick
02-07-2010, 02:35 AM
1945 Ludendorff Bridge Remagen, Germany
Collapsed after the Army tried to blow it up but failed and the bridge still was used. This was during WWII.


1971 South Bridge Koblenz Koblenz, Germany
Collapsed during construction.


1988 Aschaffenburg Main River Freeway Bridge Aschaffenburg, Bavaria, Germany
Collapsed during construction.


2009 Historical Archive of the City of Cologne collapse Cologne, Germany

Collapsed during construction of a subway.


Nick

Bguns
02-07-2010, 04:51 AM
Really... a 2x4 stud built, poorly insulated sking cabin, that was jacked up with a Tiny 1 car garage...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes-benz-cl-65-amg.html
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes-benz-slr-mclaren.html

Thats $207,000 worth of old small ski cabin, with a Chinese quality lift job and another floor stuffed under it???

And thats not even the top end 495K model...

The cabin already existed, it was just jacked up and a lower floor added...

~30 sheets of Ply , windows, siding, some plumbing, sheetrock, wiring, and that huge garage had to be 100k NOT..

People on this board have machines that weigh more than it...

Strange my house was bought for 44k 20 years ago, and is now worth 120K???

I could still build it at modern prices for around 30K... 1220 ft including garage...
2x4 walls (important insulation space not available, this is Alaska) 20 Year Plywood wall foundation... They got the time about right, dirt is starting to spill into crawlspace...

chief
02-07-2010, 06:56 AM
Leave it to Joe Finn to throw in the racist BS. Grow up! BTW Obama is amagic negro without the negro dialect, the LA times and Harry Reid said so.

Black_Moons
02-07-2010, 07:09 AM
Good points Evan.

Which raises the point or question/s:
- does the USA have a government that is "of the people by the people ............. ";

- if it doesn't, what sort of Government is there - and effectively whose Government is it - and who is it governing for whom?

Perhaps its more like China in that regard than many will realise or admit (to).

If the predominant parties are dependent upon donations to survive and if they become almost indistinguishable from each other and if both are beholding to "others" who are neither elected nor appointed to Office - where are you going - and when will you get there?

Is there any turning back?

And what if those countries and sovereign funds who are funding the US deficit "call in" the promises that were made to them or sell off the USA "paper" ("Government Bonds" and "stock") that they hold?

And do you really think that those "Bond and Paper-holders" aren't or don't "donate" or lobby or twist US arms as well?

Perhaps there are a lot of bridges that are in a state of collapse that need re-building or repairing.

Dispite all my crappy rantings that you likey skip, please read oldtiffie's post long and hard and try and understand what it really means and the illusions it shatters.

oil mac
02-07-2010, 08:44 AM
Interesting ,seeing all the different opinions expressed on the site guys, No matter which country you go to politicians of all shades are freeloaders & B******S, Over here in the U.K., the electorate over the past thirty years, are thoroughly sick to the teeth with the lot of them!, I do not want to go any further into a political rant, as we are it seems to me going down that road in the thread
Let me give a take on the bridge failure as i see it, and the root cause of the problem Nowadays, China with its totally authoritarian form of leadership, is the darling of the west, Capitalism, running riot controlled, by one of the "most evil empires on the planet- Red China" masquerading as true democracy on a vast socialist scale This as many of the members have pointed out is a vast continent operating on backhanders, graft &corruption, &repression of the masses, Just ask the poor inhabitents of Tibet!
Over here in Scotland, we had last year a catastrophic railway bridge failure in North Ayrshire, caused in no small measure, by years of neglect, And failure to heed the warnings of the bridge inspector
This bridge failed as a heavy goods locomotive was crossing it, pulling a consignment of chemical & oil tank wagons a horendous fire ensued, and a great deal of pollution fortunately the driver walked away
The root cause of this was corporate greed due to the privatisation of the rail track infrastructure & a plethora of companies vying for a share of the action in the maintenance contracts - As has been aired on our television recently ANYTHING GOES As regards safety both of the travelling JOe Public, or railway staff
Where the perpetrators of the China bridge outrage are concerned, dont worry too much guys The manacles hobbling them, will no doubt be the product of a company in Glasgow, who were frequently known to shorten the links in open contravention of the Geneva convention, And as well torture chambers, and other goodies they were frequently known to purvey to the world at large.
These products manufactured in a city controlled by a totally committed socialist council, Peace & love to all
How i remember the days when the average Brit made 90%of what he needed and ethics were important.

lazlo
02-07-2010, 09:23 AM
Really... a 2x4 stud built, poorly insulated sking cabin, that was jacked up with a Tiny 1 car garage...

Thats $207,000 worth of old small ski cabin, with a Chinese quality lift job and another floor stuffed under it???

So you're agreeing that he was bribed by Veco, the oil company who built the house for him, you're just quibbling over how much the bribe is worth :)

Rustybolt
02-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Be a Man and just admit it - its the color of his skin you don't like

Lets just quit playing these intelectually lying games of trying to associate his policies with socialism and lets just "Man-Up" and admit it. You don't like the fact a __________ got into office

When we let Greedy Wall St. Banks run the country into insolvency - that's the Democratic way!

When we try to stop Corporations from denying coverage to people who have been paying their premiums on time for decades - that's Socialism


No. I just don't like the fact that 53% of the willfully uninformed electorate elected a lying,incompetent, Chicago political machine hack as a president.

Unless you mean lying, incompetent, Chicago machine hacks are a new race.

Then you're right.

AD5MB
02-07-2010, 09:37 AM
You don't like the fact a __________ got into office

this is true. I would be just as upset if any other Democrat was in the White House

JoeFin
02-07-2010, 10:08 AM
No, it is just ordinarily corrupt.

And, in a truly corrupt town, you need to pay to get normal ordinary minor government functions to work.

before you crow about corruption, you should experience a REAL dose of corruption..... Where you pay extra to get your driver's license, to get a construction permit, to get a telephone, or do basically ANYthing.... Such places normally even have a name for the bribe that is always expected.

The US is squeaky clean by comparison, with all its faults.


I see you have been to the Philippines

JoeFin
02-07-2010, 10:28 AM
Them's fightin' words!


I've edited all my comments out and feel it was wrong to attack you in that demeanor

Don't mistake that for I agree with your statements or sucume to your logic. Just felt it was inappropriate to through out any American political figure during a conversation concerning trash in a bridge in China.

JoeFin
02-07-2010, 10:40 AM
Leave it to Joe Finn to throw in the racist BS. Grow up! BTW Obama is amagic negro without the negro dialect, the LA times and Harry Reid said so.

I don't believe the LA Times or Harry Reid mentioned that parody in any other context then condemnation.

CNN attributes Rush LickBalls as it's originator, and although he may have originally propagated the song at a National level, I don't believe he was the original creator of the parody either.


Source: CNN

(CNN) -- A candidate for the Republican National Committee chairmanship said Friday the CD he sent committee members for Christmas -- which included a song titled "Barack the Magic Negro" -- was clearly intended as a joke.

"I think most people recognize political satire when they see it," Tennessee Republican Chip Saltsman told CNN. "I think RNC members understand that."

The song, set to the tune of "Puff the Magic Dragon," was first played on conservative political commentator Rush Limbaugh's radio show in 2007.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/26/rnc.obama.satire/

I originally offered the subject matter for consideration in the context of these are the individuals we have outsourced the construction of our MACHINE TOOLs to.

Also of concern should be are the amount of OEM and replacement parts for America's F18, F20, F22 fighter jets that are made in China and India. If that is the mentality of their industry then we certainly should bring back policies requiring those parts to be manufactured in the USA

J Tiers
02-07-2010, 12:01 PM
Dispite all my crappy rantings that you likey skip, please read oldtiffie's post long and hard and try and understand what it really means and the illusions it shatters.

It shatters nothing whatever.

it poorly restates what has been said so many times already that the words write themselves........

And quite a lot of it is, in part, somewhat true.... The common factor between china and the US , for instance, is that both have people.... and people do bad things.

The difference is pointed out by the fact that the central government has limited powers in the US, and the system actually works fairly well, considering that it is run by people, who all tend to do bad things. The number of times that a person is arrested and "disappeared" in the US for protesting against the government is low.....

We have not sent the army with tanks in to crush (literally) a demonstration in at least 2 or 3 years.:rolleyes:

When I see such comparisons, I can only think of how coddled and pampered the writers are, that they have never seen the real thing. They just don't know, and should be objects of pity.

You just keep watching, friend. When the flow of people OUT from the US to escape to better prospects elsewhere is anywhere near what the in-flow is now, THEN you may have cause to make such comparisons.

it's not as if that could NOT happen. But it is NOT the case now, and for the moment isn't likely.

And, DO remember that YOU are in charge of seeing to it that the scenario does not happen.

SDL
02-07-2010, 01:05 PM
Also of concern should be are the amount of OEM and replacement parts for America's F18, F20, F22 fighter jets that are made in China and India. If that is the mentality of their industry then we certainly should bring back policies requiring those parts to be manufactured in the USA

I could understand prohibiting certain countries but not just the US after all you didnt invent the jet Engine, jet fighter, rocket etc, and far as I know Europe still makes planes and buys US Fighters.

Steve Larner

wierdscience
02-07-2010, 01:46 PM
He was sentenced to 13 years last November, but AFAIK he hasn't gone to jail yet.

I don't know how you drag the case out that long, when you're caught with $90,000 in FBI-marked bills in your freezer :)

Heh he was re-elected AFTER he was indicted too,but if you had been to or lived near his district then you would know why.

RB211
02-07-2010, 01:49 PM
Also of concern should be are the amount of OEM and replacement parts for America's F18, F20, F22 fighter jets that are made in China and India. If that is the mentality of their industry then we certainly should bring back policies requiring those parts to be manufactured in the USA

The F20? Only one prototype still exists, or did you mean the F5?