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The Artful Bodger
02-13-2010, 09:27 PM
I have enjoyed reading Cuemaker's topic on garage layout and I hope to be faced with the same thing myself in the near future.

If I am lucky we will be building a new house and I will get a 9x4 metre workshop.

This is the first sketch, it shows the entire building which will be 9x10 metres
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4355235196_3dd5457429_o.jpg



This is my first pass as positioning my toys..
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2746/4354529491_e04589785a_o.jpg
(probably poorly to scale) OOps, forgot to mention that thing in the lower right corner is the air compressor.

My idea of placing machines down the middle of the room is that I can more easily blow all the dust and chips off the floor and as the smaller machines are on wheels it will never be a big chore to, for instance, get to the back of the lathe.

I should probably swap the position of the bandsay and the chop saw so that long stock for the bandsaw can pass between the lathe and the shaper.

Carld
02-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Why don't you put the lathe and other machines under the skylights?

The Artful Bodger
02-13-2010, 10:33 PM
Why don't you put the lathe and other machines under the skylights?

Excellent point. I will have some skylights put on that side too!

winchman
02-14-2010, 02:55 AM
Are you going to move the bandsaw every time you use it, or just when you are cutting long stock?

What's in the "Lego" room?

Is there any way the compressor could be moved out of the shop? The noise can be annoying after a while. Maybe the Lego room would be a better place, if it cannot go outside altogether.

The Artful Bodger
02-14-2010, 03:46 AM
Are you going to move the bandsaw every time you use it, or just when you are cutting long stock?

Good point, the height of the bandsaw vice is lower than the chip pan on the lathe and as I will be the only one working in the room I can readily poke stock though under there.




What's in the "Lego" room? Errr, Lego, more than 40 years collection of the famous plastic construction toy, the most prominent theme is trains which I have converted to computer controll using DCC.


Is there any way the compressor could be moved out of the shop? The noise can be annoying after a while. It does not annoy me much, in fact I only turn it on when I need to use it, it is a small machine and the worst noise comes from the air intake which I could, if I thought it a problem, plumb through the outside wall.



Maybe the Lego room would be a better place.. Not a bad idea, I really want to keep dust out of that room but maybe the compressor would be OK in there.

form_change
02-14-2010, 06:42 AM
A couple of thoughts based on my own experience -

I tend to put large immovable things (lathes, shapers, drills) against walls to keep centre spaces as open as possible
Draw up a scale person so you can check access to machines (including the rear, sides, etc, etc)
Buy a shop vacuum cleaner - I've had a couple of motors into the rewind shop because previous owners would insist on blowing machines down with compressed air
Remember to put shelving on your layouts - I would estimate around 1/3 of my workshop is storage for the 'working' part...
Include a hoist or lifting device now while you think you don't need it

rockrat
02-14-2010, 08:59 AM
Here is my 2 worth.

Mills and drills work great in corners, just leave yourself enough room behind them to get back there and make adjustments or sweep if needed.

Grinders and welding are a bit dirty. Keep them together but away from other equipment. Or if you must, place a shield or a wall around them in order to keep the grit contained.

Leave access to the walls. You will be wanting to put shelving up there. Also, many of your electrical outlets will be there and it will be easier to get to them if you don't have to lean over stuff to get to the outlet.

Speaking of electrical, I put outlets in my ceiling. I have one every 6 feet in one direction and every 10 feet in the other. I have used these outlets more than I thought and have not regretted the investment or all the climbing around I had to do for installation. I have since added retractable extension cords near the 2-3 most used ceiling outlets.

I did bolt one work bench up to a wall. Made it nice and stable. This bench is for mill and lathe tooling.

I kept my lathe away from the wall because I don't like to reach over it to adjust the taper attachment. But, they will work nicely against a wall as well.

Put everything you can on wheels so that you can move it around as needed. Most of my wood working stuff is mobile. It is pushed into a corner and pulled back out when needed.

Leave yourself space for bigger projects if you can and as others have mentioned, keep the saw mobile and near the door where you will bring in material.

Also leave a bit of room between machines if possible. I have found that I like to have a rolling cart for the project I am working on. This cart I can push down the aisle between the lathe and mills and still move around it. It has helped me stop cluttering up flat surfaces with tools and such of machines that are not in use.

Paint your walls before you move machines and benches in. My brother-in-law moved all his stuff in and thought that he would paint later. Now, he does not want to move stuff out to paint, so according to him, it will never be painted.
rock~

The Artful Bodger
02-14-2010, 03:16 PM
Form Change, good points there. I do not clean machines with air but it is nice once the broom has been around to dust off the floor and out the door. Machines I pretty much flick down with a brush while I am using them.

Thanks for mentioning a hoist as I will need roof reinforcement to do that and it will be easier during the build stage.

Rockrat, I guess my little shaper would be quite happy in a corner, thanks for the other points too.

loose nut
02-14-2010, 03:52 PM
Why don't you put the lathe and other machines under the skylights?

Depending on your climate, skylights can condensate and drip all over your equipment.

The Artful Bodger
02-14-2010, 05:00 PM
Depending on your climate, skylights can condensate and drip all over your equipment.

I do not think that will be a problem in this climate however I have decided they are better where they are anyway as the workshop will be almost 45 degrees South and the skylights as shown are on the north side of the building ridge.

uncle pete
02-14-2010, 05:56 PM
Two things,
Do NOT put your lathe or mill where the sun can shine on them thru the skylights, Even one of my Chinese lathe manuals warned of this, Quote, "Do not put in the sunshine place". You will get changes due to thermal effects.

Myself, I would never put a lathe on wheels, Yeah it would be conveniate, But lathe alignment is far too critical to make this idea useable. Do a Google search for "Rollies dads method". Proper lathe alignment requires adjustments as small as a few thou. Not only does this go a long ways to makeing non tapered parts, But, It makes the lathe bed as close as possible to when the bed was ground. This will reduce and help prevent wear between the bed, carrige and tailstock Your lathe will operate far better and longer when there is no twist in the bed. No one has suggested you put your lathe on wheels, But I thought I should mention this.

Pete

cuemaker
02-14-2010, 08:37 PM
Glad you enjoyed my thread.. a few practical thoughts based on my experience..

For me, what I put on paper, didnt work for me in reality (working space, movement etc). But what it did do was give me the chance to explore new options, such as not having the lathe against a wall (I am pretty excited by it actually). Will be much easier to clean up swarf with no nooks and crannies to get into.

Also, what I put on paper was more compact in more instances than not. Give yourself room. It also could be the effects of causal measurement and plotting though.

I got stuck on the idea that the compressor HAD TO go in the corner.. That was my big mistake..limited me in seeing all my options.

Wheels and casters... I am very glad I put my compressor on wheels..If it was a vertical probably wouldnt work, but given what I got, its great.

Carld
02-14-2010, 08:46 PM
When doing a shop layout it's important to keep everything to scale. I draw a scale dimension box the size of the inside of the shop then I make little pieces of paper that are exactly the same scale of the shop drawing. Then I arrange the stuff on the shop drawing until it looks like I want and I measure the spacing between the stuff to the same scale.

It's real easy to lay out the shop and then find out everything is to close together. The important thing is the work flow in your shop and only time will tell you that. You can guess it fairly good but there will always be changes to get it right.

Fasttrack
02-14-2010, 10:42 PM
Personally, I see on glaring problem with your shop layout.



There is no mill.




:D

The Artful Bodger
02-15-2010, 01:48 AM
Two things,
Do NOT put your lathe or mill where the sun can shine on them thru the skylights, Even one of my Chinese lathe manuals warned of this, Quote, "Do not put in the sunshine place". You will get changes due to thermal effects.

Good point Pete, maybe I can get opaque skylights, I really like the natural light and I do not want many windows.




Myself, I would never put a lathe on wheels, Yeah it would be conveniate, But lathe alignment is far too critical to make this idea useable. Do a Google search for "Rollies dads method". Proper lathe alignment requires adjustments as small as a few thou. Not only does this go a long ways to makeing non tapered parts, But, It makes the lathe bed as close as possible to when the bed was ground. This will reduce and help prevent wear between the bed, carrige and tailstock Your lathe will operate far better and longer when there is no twist in the bed. No one has suggested you put your lathe on wheels, But I thought I should mention this.

Pete

No the lathe will not be on wheels! Everything else will be though.

The Artful Bodger
02-15-2010, 01:50 AM
Glad you enjoyed my thread.. a few practical thoughts based on my experience..

For me, what I put on paper, didnt work for me in reality (working space, movement etc). But what it did do was give me the chance to explore new options, such as not having the lathe against a wall (I am pretty excited by it actually). Will be much easier to clean up swarf with no nooks and crannies to get into.

Also, what I put on paper was more compact in more instances than not. Give yourself room. It also could be the effects of causal measurement and plotting though.

I got stuck on the idea that the compressor HAD TO go in the corner.. That was my big mistake..limited me in seeing all my options.

Wheels and casters... I am very glad I put my compressor on wheels..If it was a vertical probably wouldnt work, but given what I got, its great.


Yes, everything but the lathe will be on wheels, even my workbench is on wheels (with screw down feet) but I do not know if that will be making the trip with us. Meanwhile the dining room table is covered with those little card cutouts as we try to design the house and lot layout!

The Artful Bodger
02-15-2010, 01:52 AM
When doing a shop layout it's important to keep everything to scale. I draw a scale dimension box the size of the inside of the shop then I make little pieces of paper that are exactly the same scale of the shop drawing. Then I arrange the stuff on the shop drawing until it looks like I want and I measure the spacing between the stuff to the same scale.

It's real easy to lay out the shop and then find out everything is to close together. The important thing is the work flow in your shop and only time will tell you that. You can guess it fairly good but there will always be changes to get it right.

Thanks Carl, good advice.

The Artful Bodger
02-15-2010, 01:57 AM
Personally, I see on glaring problem with your shop layout.



There is no mill.




:D

:) Thats true but I do have the sweetest little shaper God ever put on a workbench!:)

A mill would be nice though.

whitis
02-15-2010, 05:58 AM
Why don't you put the lathe and other machines under the skylights?

For those who are concerned with accuracy direct sunlight during the day and direct radiation to sky at night isn't good for machine tool accuracy. Though if there is no climate control in the shop anyway, it might not make too much difference but direct sunlight can have more of an effect than small air temperature changes because the heating is localized and can distort the machine. Of course heat from the spindle bearings and other sources can also distort the machine.

Carld
02-15-2010, 09:48 AM
whitis, I can't agree with the statement, "because the heating is localized and can distort the machine", BECAUSE, if the lathe is setting under the two skylites the heat will be even over the whole machine where ever the sun is shining on it. Except for times when the sun light moves slowly over the machine. The heat would slowly move through the whole machine.

If you start a lathe in a cold room and start machining the head stock will warm up first and then slowly transfer the heat through the bed starting at the head stock toward the tailstock.

I have never seen any issues from slow heat transfers from running the machine or sun light. In the early days it was common to put machines on walls with windows to give light to work with. The machines were along the wall at an angle from perpendicular so it didn't blind the workers but provide light in addition to the inferior inside lights. Daylight is always better than electric lights.

Sumlight is not as much of an issue as you think it is.

camdigger
02-16-2010, 01:09 PM
Dodger

Skylights are a risk. A significant percentage of them leak. Some due to installation issues and others due to design issues and condensation ( really a design flaw).

An alternative to skylights is to put windows in with a sill height high enough to make looking in difficult.

My $.02, YMMV

Too_Many_Tools
02-16-2010, 02:01 PM
When doing a shop layout it's important to keep everything to scale. I draw a scale dimension box the size of the inside of the shop then I make little pieces of paper that are exactly the same scale of the shop drawing. Then I arrange the stuff on the shop drawing until it looks like I want and I measure the spacing between the stuff to the same scale.

It's real easy to lay out the shop and then find out everything is to close together. The important thing is the work flow in your shop and only time will tell you that. You can guess it fairly good but there will always be changes to get it right.

I would strongly recommend that you do a drawing for the vertical dimension (3-D) of the shop also.

The first shop I built was very well laid out 2-D wise.

What did not work out well was the gantry crane would not clear the light fixtures.

I would also layout the ceiling...lights, wiring, compressed air lines, vents/ducts you will need.

I also put drains in my shops...very handy.

TMT

Doozer
02-16-2010, 02:04 PM
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/index.php

This place can be fun to hand out at.
Some nice garage examples. Some too nice. :rolleyes:

--Doozer

The Artful Bodger
02-16-2010, 03:48 PM
Dodger

Skylights are a risk. A significant percentage of them leak. Some due to installation issues and others due to design issues and condensation ( really a design flaw).

An alternative to skylights is to put windows in with a sill height high enough to make looking in difficult.

My $.02, YMMV

I do not think the skylights will leak, they are polycarbonate sheets to the same profile as the roof itself

Condensation is not a problem where we are, except when we jam a few hundred heavy wooly ewes into the shed overnight before shearing.

camdigger
02-16-2010, 04:23 PM
I do not think the skylights will leak, they are polycarbonate sheets to the same profile as the roof itself

Condensation is not a problem where we are, except when we jam a few hundred heavy wooly ewes into the shed overnight before shearing.

Skylights aren't supposed to, but....

Unless I had absolute faith in the product and the installer, I'd look for a different way, especially where my expensive toys and /or family are concerned.

My $.02, YMMV

Too_Many_Tools
02-16-2010, 05:24 PM
Skylights aren't supposed to, but....

Unless I had absolute faith in the product and the installer, I'd look for a different way, especially where my expensive toys and /or family are concerned.

My $.02, YMMV

I agree...it is not if but when they leak.

TMT

The Artful Bodger
02-16-2010, 05:30 PM
Relax guys! The skylights will not leak and I do not care if they do when they are not directly over the machines. Ignore post #3!