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sconisbee
02-16-2010, 01:10 PM
Does anyone know any info (size, spec, part numbers etc) on the main spindle bearings on any of the ubiquitous import 12x36's? i assume they are all pretty much the same. My emails to the supplier for mine (warco) are falling on deaf ears and its soon going to be time to replace them i think

Thanks

RobbieKnobbie
02-16-2010, 01:16 PM
Belt drive or gear head?

My gear head uses 7211 and 7212 (general purpose angular contact bearings) at either end.

S.E.T
02-16-2010, 01:31 PM
I replaced the crummy original spindle bearings in my Grizzly G4003G lathe with some NSK bearings. I was getting serious chatter and some other issues, and when nothing else curred the problem, I decided to try swapping the bearings.
That made all the difference in the world.

I was actually able to order them from Grizzly and these are the part numbers.
(1) P4003G0155 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30212J NSK
(1) P4003G0147 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30211J NSK

Obviously, I'm not sure if they'll work on your machine, but it's a start.

sconisbee
02-16-2010, 01:36 PM
Belt drive or gear head?

My gear head uses 7211 and 7212 (general purpose angular contact bearings) at either end.

Good point, forgot that.... its a gear head

MTNGUN
02-16-2010, 02:20 PM
I replaced the crummy original spindle bearings in my Grizzly G4003G lathe with some NSK bearings. I was getting serious chatter and some other issues, and when nothing else curred the problem, I decided to try swapping the bearings.
That made all the difference in the world.

I was actually able to order them from Grizzly and these are the part numbers.
(1) P4003G0155 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30212J NSK
(1) P4003G0147 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30211J NSK

Thanks for the detailed info, S.E.T.. I'll bookmark that in case my spindle bearings croak someday.

RobbieKnobbie
02-16-2010, 04:26 PM
I replaced the crummy original spindle bearings in my Grizzly G4003G lathe with some NSK bearings. I was getting serious chatter and some other issues, and when nothing else curred the problem, I decided to try swapping the bearings.
That made all the difference in the world.

I was actually able to order them from Grizzly and these are the part numbers.
(1) P4003G0155 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30212J NSK
(1) P4003G0147 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30211J NSK

Obviously, I'm not sure if they'll work on your machine, but it's a start.

OK, that makes some sense. I have the plain jane grizzly 4003 and it calls for the standard 72xx angular contact bearings. Your fancy-dancy 4003G has fancy dancy tapered roller bearings.

The ID and OD's are the same, but it looks like the tapered roller bearings are a tad thicker at 23.75mm versus 22.. for the angular contact.

So as far as the OP goes... I guess it depends on what you've got in there to begin with!

MuellerNick
02-16-2010, 04:52 PM
it calls for the standard 72xx angular contact bearings

These are not (or better should not be) "standard bearing". A standard bearing (like the SKF Explorer series) is of class P6 (SKF doesn't make worse classes). A spindle bearing should be at least of class 5 (suffix "P5") or class 4 ("P4"). But a class 4 in that size will make you definetly cry. :)

Anyhow, clearly stay away from Chinese makes! They lable every crap with whatever makes more money. Buy SKF, FAG, NSK, IBC, UKF, Timken, ...

And then, look at the photos I have postet how the Chinese make the seats for bearing ("improving a Chinese lathe"-thread). That's your next job! ;)


Nick

demerrill
02-17-2010, 12:20 AM
I replaced the crummy original spindle bearings in my Grizzly G4003G lathe with some NSK bearings. I was getting serious chatter and some other issues, and when nothing else curred the problem, I decided to try swapping the bearings.
That made all the difference in the world.

I was actually able to order them from Grizzly and these are the part numbers.
(1) P4003G0155 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30212J NSK
(1) P4003G0147 TAPER ROLLER BEARING HR 30211J NSK

Obviously, I'm not sure if they'll work on your machine, but it's a start.

Those are supposed to be NSK or Timken bearings in the G4003G as originally shipped. See post #5 at this link: http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47803&highlight=nsk%22

Are you sure that the problem and fix wasn't in the adjustment of bearing preload associated with replacing them ?

David Merrill

S.E.T
02-17-2010, 08:06 AM
Those are supposed to be NSK or Timken bearings in the G4003G as originally shipped.

Are you sure that the problem and fix wasn't in the adjustment of bearing preload associated with replacing them ?

David Merrill

Originally, I thought maybe the preload was the issue, but it was not. Communicating several times with the Grizzly tech over the phone eliminated that as a cause. He was the one that suggested maybe the bearings are at fault. He had seen that a couple of times previously and knows these lathes inside and out.

I'm also 100% sure the original bearings were not NSK or Timken's. I've seen that post before and was surprised to find that they were not as described by him. It was also no picnic to change them out. Removing the spindle required sliding the entire main gear cluster out. That too required way more persuading then I was led to believe.

I've since sold the lathe, and told the new owner what was done along with giving him the old bearings. I will try and contact him to get the exact identification marks on the old ones and post it here.
Please don't get me wrong, I think that lathe was pretty good except mainly for the bearing issue.

RobbieKnobbie
02-17-2010, 08:42 AM
These are not (or better should not be) "standard bearing". A standard bearing (like the SKF Explorer series) is of class P6 (SKF doesn't make worse classes). A spindle bearing should be at least of class 5 (suffix "P5") or class 4 ("P4"). But a class 4 in that size will make you definetly cry. :)

Nick

Thank you for the reinterpretation of my owners manual. I will be sure to pass your comments along to the factory.

It's about time someone really clever explain to the manufacturers the folly of building to a price point to sustain a specific market.

S.E.T
02-17-2010, 01:34 PM
I've since sold the lathe, and told the new owner what was done along with giving him the old bearings. I will try and contact him to get the exact identification marks on the old ones and post it here.
Please don't get me wrong, I think that lathe was pretty good except mainly for the bearing issue.

These are the numbers that are on the old bearings I replaced. They sure don't seem to be Timken's!

The large bearing has 3 markings: ZYS 30212/P5
222
The small bearing has 2 markings:
LYC
30211/P6

jungle_geo
02-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Thanks S.E.T.
I was told by Grizzly as well that they used only Timken and NSK bearings in the 4003G. I find it interesting that you found otherwise. I have a 4003G and have not had the problem you describe, but now you have me wondering about what type of bearings are in the headstock. On another note, my 4003G has performed wonderfully and I can hold extremely tight and repeatable tolerances.
I'll definitely keep the replacement bearing information you posted above for possible future use.
Thanks again!

S.E.T
02-17-2010, 02:42 PM
Like I said previously, I thought the lathe actually preformed very well, and I did turn out some very good shooting barrels with it. The chamber run-out was held to .0003 or less, and no chatter marks anywhere in the chamber. The only issue was just the surface finish on the thread flanks. It was purely cosmetic, but it bothered me.
I realize it's sometimes difficult to maintain a 100% quality control, no matter where the machine is built. I also would not hesitate to recommend that lathe to somebody getting started on a budget.

MetalMunger
02-17-2010, 03:38 PM
S.E.T.
“ZYS” may stand for Luoyang Bearing Science and Technology Co., Ltd.
“LYC” may stand for LYC Bearing Group, China
My suspicion is that if the Grizzly tech had seen that a couple of times previously somebody at the factory was playing fast and loose, Pappa Grizzly would not advertise NSK/ Timken bearings and substitute bearing of Chinese origin. It will be interesting to see if quality control can be maintained on the new line of South Bend Lathes.

The Artful Bodger
02-17-2010, 04:10 PM
It would be interesting to find any distributor of Chinese machine tools that would not assure you that their particular colour of lathe is fitted with some brand name bearings.

MuellerNick
02-17-2010, 04:26 PM
Chinese Wok-lathe-manufacturers promise to assemble whatver the customer asks for. They install, whatever is the cheapest. The importer believes whatever they asked the manufacturer for, knowing that they will be cheated. But who cares, only a few customers will ever have a look at the bearings, too much work to disassemble.
And if that happens ... "Oh, we are sorry! We will send you new ones".

Hahahaha!

Monkey business!


Nick

S.E.T
02-17-2010, 05:39 PM
I guess if children's toys containing lead paint can be imported by a certain group, anything is possible.:)

cybor462
08-25-2010, 11:00 AM
I see this is old but I wanted to add my 1 cent answer. I had that lathe just sold it. I had some issues with bearings and mine had Chinese P5 bearings supposedly. I do not know if they even make a real P5 anyway. I did put Timkens in it after first buying Grizzly sold P5 bearings which were also Chinese as we know. They say they are P5's but I opted to pay the big bucks for Timken which I know are, used to be, maybe still are quality bearings. I was told later that Timken was also bought out and is no longer the company that built the name.
Today who knows what is quality. The biggest ripoff is by companies riding the back of old well known names that were once a good product (RCA,MAGNAVOX) and loads of others that were bought out by Korean or Chinese companies and milk the names for all its worth while supplying a sub par product.
Today we as consumers really need to do our homework so we have the best info we can when making a decision to buy anything.
Remember we are in a Global Economy and it seems that the USA part of that is to buy all our products from other countries and make nothing.
Scary Stuff!

MuellerNick
08-25-2010, 11:22 AM
Re the bearings:
Don't know about Timken. But they do have a good reputation.
If you buy SKF, FAG they often do come from abroad or even "Asia". But I never had a precision bearing from SKF, FAG or IBC that was not made in Europe. Germany or Italy they came from.

But I always say: "No Asian manufacturer, except Japan (NSK)". Not a single dealer even tried to argue.


Nick

lazlo
08-25-2010, 12:22 PM
Thank you for the reinterpretation of my owners manual. I will be sure to pass your comments along to the factory.

What Nick is saying is that those are non-precision, automotive-grade tapered roller bearings, like you would use on a truck axle.

But for many purposes, they're probably fine, and precision tapered roller bearings are exceedingly rare now (since almost everyone uses angular contact bearings), so they're UnGodly expensive. I called Timken for a set of the Class 3 (equivalent to ABEC-5) precision tapered roller bearings used in my Clausing 5914 headstock, and they were $576. To make matters worse, they were a special order, with a 6 week lead time. In other words, they would make you a set if you ordered them.

Davo J
08-25-2010, 12:25 PM
My 12x36 lathe here in Australia has D7212 and D7211 as well.

I just bought all new SKF bearings for my 1 1/2 year old mill. The top spindle bearing inner race had a crack through it, so I was lucky I went through it.

While there I picked up a pamphlet about counterfeit bearings, have a read of the PDF it will surprise you at the lengths they go to to copy them and how wide spread it is.
http://www.skf.com/files/874266.pdf
I was going to buy them online or through ebay, now I am glad I bought them direct from SKF.

Dave

lazlo
08-25-2010, 12:29 PM
While there I picked up a pamphlet about counterfeit bearings, have a read of the PDF it will surprise you at the lengths they go to to copy them and how wide spread it is.

http://www.skf.com/files/874266.pdf
I was going to buy them online or through ebay, now I am glad I bought them direct from SKF.

VXB, a distributor of cheap Chinese bearings, has suddenly started to carry Nachi bearings:

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130377107572&

That's the only non no-name bearing he carries. Call me cynical, but I'd be really curious to see if that bearing is really from Nachi.

Bill Pace
08-25-2010, 12:40 PM
non-precision, automotive-grade tapered roller bearings, like you would use on a truck axle.

But for many purposes, they're probably fine,

When I did that Katrina South Bend 13x36 (a variation of the 12/13x36) I had no idea how that thing was gonna perform, and after discussing it with Lane, that's exactly what I used - automotive type, around $50. I could not see, nor afford, the unbelievable cost of whats 'supposed' to go in there.

lazlo
08-25-2010, 01:21 PM
When I did that Katrina South Bend 13x36 (a variation of the 12/13x36) I had no idea how that thing was gonna perform, and after discussing it with Lane, that's exactly what I used - automotive type, around $50

I was going to mention that Bill, but didn't know if you wanted it mentioned :)

This gets into Sir John's theory that modern bearing manufacturing is so good that ABEC-1 (non precision) bearings of today are probably as good as ABEC-3/5 of 50 years ago. Your mileage may vary ;)

Davo J
08-25-2010, 01:23 PM
VXB, a distributor of cheap Chinese bearings, has suddenly started to carry Nachi bearings:

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130377107572&

That's the only non no-name bearing he carries. Call me cynical, but I'd be really curious to see if that bearing is really from Nachi.

That was one of the places I was going to buy them through and I was looking at the Nachi's instead of the no name. If I didn't buy them through SKF, I would be none the wiser as I wouldn't have seen the pamphlet to know about it.
They may well be genuine Nachi bearings from VXB, but I feel better now knowing that I bought them strait from the SKF outlet, and I am getting the quality that I paid for.

Dave

Bill Pace
08-25-2010, 01:23 PM
non-precision, automotive-grade tapered roller bearings, like you would use on a truck axle. But for many purposes, they're probably fine,
When I did that Katrina South Bend 13x36 (a variation of the 12/13x36) I had no idea how that thing was gonna perform, and after discussing it with Lane, that's exactly what I used - automotive type, around $50. I could not see, nor afford, the unbelievable cost of whats 'supposed' to go in there.

Not only did I use that type bearing, when I fired it up, it was so noisy I eventually had a can of STP, a quart of 190wt gear oil and the rest heavy hydraulic oil in the gear box --- I've been using it now for 2 1/2 years and I put quite a few hours on it, it does very well... Its quieted down considerably, but still is a bit noisy, but its obviously the condition of the gears and not the bearings. I feel sure those bearing will do me fine til I get in the wheelchair.

I see that I somehow sent that before I was finished typing!! I took a lunch break....

lazlo
08-25-2010, 01:29 PM
They may well be genuine Nachi bearings from VXB, but I feel better now knowing that I bought them strait from the SKF outlet, and I am getting the quality that I paid for.

Agree completely Davo. FYI: MSC has great deals on the SKF Explorer series (ABEC 5) bearings during the 30/35% off sales. You get the full 35% off, and that's way cheaper than any authorized distributor I can find.

MuellerNick
08-25-2010, 02:57 PM
automotive type, around $50. I could not see, nor afford, the unbelievable cost of whats 'supposed' to go in there.

Well, you know ...
Those expensive bearings only perform better when they are in perfect seats. Read the specs for them closely. Tolerances of IT3 (IIRC; at least for roundness), axial alignment within a few (angle) minutes, etc.

That's not what you find in a chinese lathe/mill.


Nick

bob_s
08-25-2010, 03:06 PM
Well, you know ...
Those expensive bearings only perform better when they are in perfect seats. Read the specs for them closely. Tolerances of IT3 (IIRC; at least for roundness), axial alignment within a few (angle) minutes, etc.

That's not what you find in a chinese lathe/mill.


Nick

Nick:
Apparently you didn't read/understand the post, as to my recollection a South Bend lathe was manufactured in the USA!!!!

MuellerNick
08-25-2010, 03:12 PM
a South Bend lathe

Maybe I just read "bent lathe" and didn't care what direction the bend was? :D


Nick

Michael Hall
08-25-2010, 03:55 PM
What Nick is saying is that those are non-precision, automotive-grade tapered roller bearings, like you would use on a truck axle.

But for many purposes, they're probably fine, and precision tapered roller bearings are exceedingly rare now (since almost everyone uses angular contact bearings), so they're UnGodly expensive. I called Timken for a set of the Class 3 (equivalent to ABEC-5) precision tapered roller bearings used in my Clausing 5914 headstock, and they were $576. To make matters worse, they were a special order, with a 6 week lead time. In other words, they would make you a set if you ordered them.


Lazlo I have been looking high and low, without pulling my spindle, for the 5914 spindle bearing numbers. You must have the numbers if you got a quote. Care to share?

Michael

lazlo
08-25-2010, 04:50 PM
Lazlo I have been looking high and low, without pulling my spindle, for the 5914 spindle bearing numbers. You must have the numbers if you got a quote.

Doh! Forgot all about that Michael. :( The problem I had was that Timken's numbering system changed between the original tapered roller bearings that Clausing shipped with, the modern system, and then again after they were bought by Fafnir. But I know for sure I've got all three numbers written down at home.

Off the top of my head, I *think* it was the 362A.

AlphaGeek
08-25-2010, 05:31 PM
That was one of the places I was going to buy them through and I was looking at the Nachi's instead of the no name. If I didn't buy them through SKF, I would be none the wiser as I wouldn't have seen the pamphlet to know about it.
They may well be genuine Nachi bearings from VXB, but I feel better now knowing that I bought them strait from the SKF outlet, and I am getting the quality that I paid for.

Dave

For what it's worth, in my workshop right this minute I have a bunch of Nachi sealed bearings in two different sizes (6203-2NSE, 6007-2NSE) that I sourced through VXB. I also recently opened and inspected (and returned due to my error) Nachi 6202-2NSE and 6003-2NSE bearings from VXB.

While I am familiar with the sophistication of modern Chinese counterfeiting from my work in the mobile-devices industry (cell phones, batteries, etc.) I still have to say that if these are fakes then they are unusually precise and detailed fakes. The individual boxes have the Nachi tamper-proof tape over both openings. The box printing is crisp and clear, and the colors are a precise match for the Nachi colors. Each bearing is packaged in a perfectly sealed packet inside the box.

If VXB is selling fake Nachi bearings, then they're the best fakes I've ever seen. I think it's more likely that these are genuine. Either way, they're going into my G0484's headstock in the next week or two.

If anyone still has concerns after reading this, I encourage them to contact VXB and ask for the contact info for their Nachi factory rep. I've found VXB to be very responsive.

-AG

lazlo
08-25-2010, 07:33 PM
If anyone still has concerns after reading this, I encourage them to contact VXB and ask for the contact info for their Nachi factory rep.

That's probably a good idea -- VXB isn't listed as an authorized dealer on the Nachi USA bearing distributor list:

http://www.nachiamerica.com/distributers.cfm?division=bearings

You can find the phone number of your local Nachi rep here:

http://www.nachiamerica.com/divContact.cfm?division=bearings

Black_Moons
08-25-2010, 10:16 PM
Does one need to actualy be authorized to sell products to sell them?
I thought you just needed to find someone willing to sell you the products in the first place at a cheap enough price and then sell them for a higher price.

Also, I highly doubt VXB is USA based.