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View Full Version : New Guy: What could I expect from your shop?



Alonzo
02-16-2010, 01:57 PM
First, a quick intro, I should have known that the internet would have such a forum somewhere. I am not a machinest by any shape, and I joined to have a few questions answered about a piece of equipment I'm hoping I can have done for me. Other forums I am a part of are a wealth of information, and I'm sure this one is no different. If I have stepped over any lines, I apologize from my ignorance and for the self-serving nature of my membership :rolleyes: .

Feel free to make suggestions etc...

I am looking to build a small piece of equipment for some work I do. I don't have a lot of money, so I thought the forum might help me understand the processes and costs associated with such a project. I have attached a picture to give you an idea of what the piece looks like. I am in the process of getting plans drawn up (via local university kids), so I'll understand if it is rough numbers for now.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo145/Anadromous_photos/0211001705.jpg

Material: Not sure, needs a little weight to keep the top plate from flipping off when pressure is placed on tool post. I'm thinking aluminum, nothing fancy.

Tolerances: Well, just tight enough for smooth/non-binding rotation.

Testing: This is a home-bound piece of equipment, so no testing is required.

Basically, it is a set of "nesting" plates (top and bottom) that has vertical slots (3) for tool posts. It is about 12" - 14" in diameter and thickness is not an issue, but 1/4" seems reasonable. The way it works is the bottom plate sits in place, while the top plate rotates into locking positions at each post slot. The way the locking positions work is there slight depressions/pockets on the bottom plate and a reciprocal bump or node under the top plate (not visible). You will notice in the picture that the top plate has a grommet or bushing (the white band on the inside radius of the top plate, some type of plastic or similar) that assists in reducing the friction between plates. I hope my explanation and picture can help you visualize the piece.

1) Would it be easier if I had some plans made up prior to requesting a bid?
2) Roughly, what would the total cost of such a project be? I realize that you might not be able to give a hard number given my request, so just a ball park is alright.
3) I do not think that I am going to have it anodized yet, but if you could give me an idea on the cost of such a process?
4) Is this a project better suited for a lathe, CNC, or both?

As I said, I'm open for design input as well as opinions. Thank you all very much for any and all help or advice you might be willing to provide.

Regards,

Alonzo

mochinist
02-16-2010, 02:44 PM
1) Would it be easier if I had some plans made up prior to requesting a bid?
Yes

When you have your plans made up, be sure to sit down with whoever does it and properly tolerance the part. You mentioned some university kids would be helping you, they are usually pretty proficient with CAD, but they have no clue yet how tolerances directly effect cost and will have really tight call outs for no other reason other than they just dont know or didn't change the CAD system default.

2) Roughly, what would the total cost of such a project be? I realize that you might not be able to give a hard number given my request, so just a ball park is alright.
I cant give you one from the pictures, but I'll try and ball park it per your request.

pro shop=$350 to $500

someone with a homeshop=$150 to $350

3) I do not think that I am going to have it anodized yet, but if you could give me an idea on the cost of such a process?
My local anodizer has a minimum charge of $85, if you were doing 1 or 10 of those it would probably be about the same

4) Is this a project better suited for a lathe, CNC, or both?
The bottom piece looks like a good candidate for a cnc mill, the top ring could be done on a mill or lathe.

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 02:53 PM
mochinist,

Thanks for the help!



When you have your plans made up, be sure to sit down with whoever does it and properly tolerance the part. You mentioned some university kids would be helping you, they are usually pretty proficient with CAD, but they have no clue yet how tolerances directly effect cost and will have really tight call outs for no other reason other than they just dont know or didn't change the CAD system default.


Sorry man, I am an ignoranus on this stuff. Given that it is a personal use item, I can deal with some play in the parts. I guess in my mind I'm thinking +/- .05 or so.

What would you suggest I look for or ask for?

winchman
02-16-2010, 03:11 PM
The two tubes with the knurled knobs could be welded on, pressed through a hole and staked, or threaded into a tapped hole. It depends on how strong the joint needs to be.

A threaded joint might be a problem if the knob heeds to be in a particular position. Welding might affect whether or not the part can be anodized.

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 03:16 PM
The two tubes with the knurled knobs could be welded on, pressed through a hole and staked, or threaded into a tapped hole. It depends on how strong the joint needs to be.

A threaded joint might be a problem if the knob heeds to be in a particular position. Welding might affect whether or not the part can be anodized.

Kind of thought about that. The "post pockets" with the knobs are directly above the node/bump that fits into the bottom plates pocket. This is what allows the two plates to nest properly and with the tool in the correct position. I guess, now that i think about it, they wouldn't really NEED to be right below.

There wouldn't be more then 10 or 15 pounds of pressure put on the joints from use.

camdigger
02-16-2010, 03:18 PM
I guess in my mind I'm thinking +/- .05 or so.

What would you suggest I look for or ask for?

What is the purpose of the wagon wheel in the lower element? Bracing? If a flat plate will do, plasma tables will hold +/- 0.050" and can be done in 1/8" CR plate for under $.20/inch and under $2.00 per square foot of material. The bolts and offsets could be welded on with a stud welder.

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 03:26 PM
What is the purpose of the wagon wheel in the lower element? Bracing?

The wagon wheel you speak of are actually just pockets to hold material for each station. Being that it is part of the bottom plate, it is stationary. If you look at the top plate, it is actually only a ring with the the 3 post slots in it. The wheel configuration is actually a raised section that functions like a pivot or axel (forgive the crude explaination) that the top plate rotates around.

The pockets are not a necessity, but functional.

mochinist
02-16-2010, 03:48 PM
mochinist,

Thanks for the help!



Sorry man, I am an ignoranus on this stuff. Given that it is a personal use item, I can deal with some play in the parts. I guess in my mind I'm thinking +/- .05 or so.

What would you suggest I look for or ask for?Typically what I see on prints is this.

Tolerances unless otherwise specified
1 place dimensions= x.x= plus or minus either .032" or .062"

2 place dimensions= x.xx= plus or minus either.015" or .032"

3 place dimensions= x.xxx= plus or minus either.005" or .015"

Dimensions that are critical like bearing fits etc, are usually toleranced individually.


Its hard to tolerance someone else's design or idea without sitting down with them and/or knowing exactly what the part does


.050" is pretty wide open and opens up other options like camdigger said

winchman
02-16-2010, 03:49 PM
I'm seeing four parts:

The lower disc with the three recesses. Cut from flat stock, lathe turn the OD, then mill the recesses.

The wagon wheel. Cut from flat stock, turned for a good finish on the OD, then attached to the disc.

The ring. Cut from flat stock, lathe turned for good finish on the ID and OD, holes punched or drilled.

Tubes. Cut to length from tube stock, ID and OD finished as needed, end shaped for attachment to the ring, drilled and tapped for knurled knob.

I'm leaning toward a threaded joint for the tubes to the ring. After the end is threaded and installed in the disc, have a fixture for drilling and tapping the hole for the knob at the correct orientation. That way, assembly and drilling/tapping could be done after the parts are anodized.

Too_Many_Tools
02-16-2010, 04:27 PM
First, a quick intro, I should have known that the internet would have such a forum somewhere. I am not a machinest by any shape, and I joined to have a few questions answered about a piece of equipment I'm hoping I can have done for me. Other forums I am a part of are a wealth of information, and I'm sure this one is no different. If I have stepped over any lines, I apologize from my ignorance and for the self-serving nature of my membership :rolleyes: .

Feel free to make suggestions etc...

I am looking to build a small piece of equipment for some work I do. I don't have a lot of money, so I thought the forum might help me understand the processes and costs associated with such a project. I have attached a picture to give you an idea of what the piece looks like. I am in the process of getting plans drawn up (via local university kids), so I'll understand if it is rough numbers for now.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo145/Anadromous_photos/0211001705.jpg

Material: Not sure, needs a little weight to keep the top plate from flipping off when pressure is placed on tool post. I'm thinking aluminum, nothing fancy.

Tolerances: Well, just tight enough for smooth/non-binding rotation.

Testing: This is a home-bound piece of equipment, so no testing is required.

Basically, it is a set of "nesting" plates (top and bottom) that has vertical slots (3) for tool posts. It is about 12" - 14" in diameter and thickness is not an issue, but 1/4" seems reasonable. The way it works is the bottom plate sits in place, while the top plate rotates into locking positions at each post slot. The way the locking positions work is there slight depressions/pockets on the bottom plate and a reciprocal bump or node under the top plate (not visible). You will notice in the picture that the top plate has a grommet or bushing (the white band on the inside radius of the top plate, some type of plastic or similar) that assists in reducing the friction between plates. I hope my explanation and picture can help you visualize the piece.

1) Would it be easier if I had some plans made up prior to requesting a bid?
2) Roughly, what would the total cost of such a project be? I realize that you might not be able to give a hard number given my request, so just a ball park is alright.
3) I do not think that I am going to have it anodized yet, but if you could give me an idea on the cost of such a process?
4) Is this a project better suited for a lathe, CNC, or both?

As I said, I'm open for design input as well as opinions. Thank you all very much for any and all help or advice you might be willing to provide.

Regards,

Alonzo

So what is this piece for?

You mention it is for home and then you mention it is for work...which is it?

TMT

Ries
02-16-2010, 04:35 PM
If you explain what its for, it will help people decide the proper level of strength, accuracy, and refinement, all of which affect price.

What does the commercially made one you show cost?

Are you trying to beat the cost of a mass produced one?
Because its usually unlikely, unless you find somebody to do it for free.

If a company is making these in quantity, they are going to have economies of scale you cannot get on just one.

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 04:47 PM
I am starting to tie flies commercially. The piece is a base for 3 vices to be attached at the same time, where 3 flies are tied together. It is a faster method I belive.

The picture is of one that is not commercially made as far as my research can tell. I belive it was the idea of another tier and he has since sold this one. My hope is that his marking up the price is the increase in costs. $210 is what I was told.

So, it is a commercial venture that I do from home...

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 04:49 PM
I am starting to tie flies commercially. The piece is a base for 3 vices to be attached at the same time, where 3 flies are tied together. It is a faster method I belive.

The picture is of one that is not commercially made as far as my research can tell. I belive it was the idea of another tier and he has since sold this one. My hope is that his marking up the price is the increase in costs. $210 is what I was told.

So, it is a commercial venture that I do from home. I am not interested in selling these or a mass production. Just looking for a better way to skin a cat.

SpyGuy
02-16-2010, 05:11 PM
Well now that you've explained it's purpose, it's much easier to offer advice.

It appears the device requires no real precision as it is merely a turntable for sequentially positioning the vises in front of you as you perform a manual repetitive process (i.e., the tying of your flies). So why do you need something so fancy?

My simple solution would be to get a wood or thick plastic lazy susan with an attached ball-bearing base. Drill holes evenly around the periphery for your vise stations (you can have more than 3 if you wish, depending on the size of your lazy susan). You can index the positions by fashioning a spring-loaded detent system. This could be a vertical ball and spring recessed in the base and acting on detents in the underside of the turntable, or it could be a cantilever spring acting on notches cut into the outer circumference of the turntable. Many possibilities!

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 05:31 PM
It appears the device requires no real precision as it is merely a turntable for sequentially positioning the vises in front of you as you perform a manual repetitive process (i.e., the tying of your flies). So why do you need something so fancy?

In the days of ole, people use to tie flies with out a vice at all. I could mount a bunch of vice grips too.

Yeah, I'll admit it, I am a graduate of the "MacGyver School of the I-Can-Build-One-of-Those" and gadgets always get the best of me. I'm sure the costs are going to be prohibitive, so I'll break out my dictionary and try and do what you say. Until then, I'm gonna have some plans drawn up any way, just in case.

I'm not sure if anyone here really cares, but here is a link to a guy who has the same philosphy...It is pretty satisfying to be able to catch a fish on a fly AND hook made from scratch, fishing a rod and reel you built yourself.

http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=37643

SpyGuy
02-16-2010, 05:53 PM
I didn't mean to sound condescending or rain on your parade. I certainly lust after cool tools myself!

My point was that, since the device you want is not comercially available at a reasonable price, and since you don't have the means to make one yourself, then you amy want to consider an alternative to the VERY expensive proposition of having one custom made to exacting specifications. My "lazy susan" idea was intended as an economical -- yet equally functional -- alternative to solving your problem. I hope I've helped.

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 06:17 PM
Oh, no worries at all. I really appreciate all the help and opinions. Like I said in my first post, I love these forums for this reason.

SpyGuy, maybe you could shoot a PM to elaborate on your suggestion?

Thanks everyone else!!!

Ries
02-16-2010, 07:32 PM
So, as I understand it, the tubes with lockscrews are for holding the bases of the vises?
And then the whole top plate, including its three attached vises, can be rotated, so you can get good access to the vise you want?

But what holds this down?
If it was me, I would want the lower base to be firmly attached to a tabletop. Either clamped or screwed down.
And I would want there to be a positive connection between the upper, vise holding circle, and the lower, clamped down circle.
Bearings would be nice, too.
Some sort of spring loaded locking pin, with registration holes, so you pulled up on the pin, spun the jig to your desired location, and then let go and the pin locked the whole assembly in place.

Anodized aluminum is perfectly adequate for this, and a target retail price of a couple hundred bucks could get you a much better designed one than this one, I could think.
But to make ONE, if you are paying to have it all done, is probably not going to get a lot cheaper.
If you had a shop, you could make lots, with a per piece price lower than that, probably half that.

camdigger
02-16-2010, 07:33 PM
Tied a mess o' flies a couple decades ago. Exchanged idears with several commercial tiers. Never seen the like o' this. Be interestin' tuh see where it goes.....

Alonzo
02-16-2010, 08:15 PM
So, as I understand it, the tubes with lockscrews are for holding the bases of the vises?

Correct.


And then the whole top plate, including its three attached vises, can be rotated, so you can get good access to the vise you want?

Basically. Flies are tied in steps. This allows you to man three stations and run three sets at the same time.


But what holds this down?
If it was me, I would want the lower base to be firmly attached to a tabletop. Either clamped or screwed down.?

Well, the weight of the bottom plate gives enough resistance to keep everything in place. This is the concept behind Pedestal Base Vices (4 pounds on up). As for the top plate, well, as it happens, I've been thinking of that as well. I think the foot print, (12" - 16" plate) is enough to keep from messing up.


And I would want there to be a positive connection between the upper, vise holding circle, and the lower, clamped down circle.
Bearings would be nice, too. Some sort of spring loaded locking pin, with registration holes, so you pulled up on the pin, spun the jig to your desired location, and then let go and the pin locked the whole assembly in place.

I think the appeal for me is the ease of motion. It sounds silly, but pulling up on a pin then spining sounds like a little more effort. The movement on this set up is just to spin. The top plate/ring spins and when the "egg" falls into the "egg crate", you have a positive stop. I think the balance between smooth operation - weight - and effeciency is the magic formula, Simplicity.


Anodized aluminum is perfectly adequate for this, and a target retail price of a couple hundred bucks could get you a much better designed one than this one, I could think. But to make ONE, if you are paying to have it all done, is probably not going to get a lot cheaper. If you had a shop, you could make lots, with a per piece price lower than that, probably half that.

Well, wish I had a shop! Anyone want to make a deal??? :D :D :D

Thanks again all!