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form_change
02-27-2010, 05:34 PM
I want to make up some gears and need to cut 15 or thereabouts 3/16" keyways in a 7/8" bore, the bore being around 1" long. I have a shaper, so could make up the appropriate tool and cut them on it. I also was looking at a lathe mounted (hand powered) reciprecating tool used for engraving graduations and wondering about adapting that. I have no room for a press, so broaching is not a possibility. Anyone have any other methods that are worth sharing?

Michael

SpyGuy
02-27-2010, 05:37 PM
You have a shaper but no room for a press? :eek: An arbor press really does not take up that much space.

But given what you've got, I vote for using the shaper. After all, that kind of axial cutting is what it's designed to do.

form_change
02-27-2010, 05:51 PM
The shaper followed me home...
I bought a beautiful fly press once but got it back to the shed and discovered that I had no where to put it, so reluctantly on sold it to a guy at work who was lusting after one.
I have half a double garage and is already home to a mill, lathe, drill press, shaper, welder, panbrake, table saw, thicknesser, bandsaw, linisher, surface table, optical comparator a few benches and a shelf or two. I can't quite work out how to wedge a press in (yet)
Michael

S_J_H
02-27-2010, 06:28 PM
Well the shaper will certainly work well.
If if you could find an area for it you'll enjoy the speed and nice looking keyways
using a press and broach.
My little Palmgren 2 ton press would easily handle a 3/16" keyway in mild steel, brass or aluminum for example. You could probably cut 15 key ways in around 20 minutes with a good broach and press.
Estimated force needed for 1 pass broaches at bottom pf page-
http://www.dumont.com/prod6c.html

But since you have a shaper, may as well put it to work!

Steve

JCD
02-27-2010, 07:23 PM
I've cut internal key ways with a hacksaw and file. That wasn't a lot of fun, but it did get the job done. The shaper sounds like your best bet.

deltaenterprizes
02-27-2010, 07:28 PM
Use the mill quill as a press.

polepenhollow
02-27-2010, 08:00 PM
Make a planing tool for your lathe.
Mount the Center of the tool on the CL of th espindle..Use the lathe as a shaper-planer. Lock the spindle in position.
K Lively

tmc_31
02-27-2010, 08:34 PM
Hey Form_Change,

I recently (last week) cut an internal 3/16" key-way in a 3/4" bore in aluminum using a boring bar on my lathe. I used a 1/2" boring bar and ground a 3/16 HSS tool mounted in my QCTP and moved it back and forth with the carriage wheel. It took awhile, but turned out fine advancing the tool about 5 thou and making several spring passes (tool bar flex). I will probably use this method again as it was easy to do, however I will build a purpose built ram with a much stiffer tool bar in it. It will mount directly on the carriage in place of the compound for increased rigidity. I have seen several examples of these in the "shop made tools" thread on this forum.

While this works ok in a pinch, using the shaper looks like a better deal to me. If I was going to do a lot of internal keyways, I would invest in a arbor press and broach set.

Tim

Pherdie
02-27-2010, 09:00 PM
I have half a double garage and is already home to a mill, lathe, drill press, shaper, welder, panbrake, table saw, thicknesser, bandsaw, linisher, surface table, optical comparator a few benches and a shelf or two. I can't quite work out how to wedge a press in yet

You're obviously not trying very hard if that's all that is in there ;)

Carld
02-27-2010, 10:14 PM
deltaenterprizes, you shouldn't use the mill quill for a press. The rack on the quill is not designed to be a press and it will not last long doing that.

oldtiffie
02-27-2010, 10:36 PM
Use a hydraulic press and an arbor press with a set of broatches:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Hydraulics/Hydraulics1.jpg

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M500

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Keyway-Broach-Sets

dp
02-27-2010, 10:50 PM
I needed to do this recently and used my shaper:
http://metalworkingathome.com/?p=65

EddyCurr
02-28-2010, 02:03 PM
Use a hydraulic press and an arbor press with a set of broatches Do you merely use the frame of the hydraulic press to support the
arbour press? Or do you use the HP's ram to move the AP's rack?

I was once considering whether to bid on a nice hydraulic press at
a local auction for use primarily for broaching. At the time, I determined
that the conventional wisdom is that hydraulic presses do not provide
sufficient "feel" and that a consequence of this is broken broaches.

.

Toolguy
02-28-2010, 02:10 PM
I concur with not using the mill spindle. You could broach on the lathe by holding the work in the chuck and pushing the broach with the tailstock.

JCD
02-28-2010, 03:11 PM
There is a photo of a Slotter by; Terry G. on, Page 45 of the Shop Made Tools Thread. That may also work for you.

vpt
02-28-2010, 03:36 PM
I talked with a guy that said he used to hammer broaches all the time and never broke one.

Fasttrack
02-28-2010, 04:05 PM
Come on guys - he's got a shaper. Just use the shaper for crying out loud. Sure, the other methods work too but you've already got the tool for the job, so use it!

Why bother making anything for the lathe when you can pop them in the shaper and have the whole lot done before you finish building an attachment for your lathe?

S_J_H
02-28-2010, 06:00 PM
Come on guys - he's got a shaper. Just use the shaper for crying out loud. Sure, the other methods work too but you've already got the tool for the job, so use it!

Why bother making anything for the lathe when you can pop them in the shaper and have the whole lot done before you finish building an attachment for your lathe?

yeah, I was also wondering what in the heck is going on with this thread!

Terry L
02-28-2010, 06:32 PM
I was once considering whether to bid on a nice hydraulic press at
a local auction for use primarily for broaching. At the time, I determined
that the conventional wisdom is that hydraulic presses do not provide
sufficient "feel" and that a consequence of this is broken broaches.

.

First, I want to say I agree with using the shaper and wish I had one.

To answer Eddy though, I just want to say that I used a hydraulic press for years to cut internal keyways and never broke a broach. Now maybe I was just lucky and it is tricky to do. But with care, it is much easier than straining on an arbor press. I do agree that it doesn't have "the feel" and you may have less control, but still, with care, it is not that difficult.

SpyGuy
02-28-2010, 08:45 PM
I concur with not using the mill spindle. You could broach on the lathe by holding the work in the chuck and pushing the broach with the tailstock.
To me, this is not much of an improvement over using the mill's quill. Neither the mill or the lathe are designed to be presses, so why subject these precision machines to such abuse when a press is really so inexpensive (comparatively speaking).

form_change
02-28-2010, 09:56 PM
For Fasttrack, S_J_H and others wondering -
The reason I started this thread was that I've never cut an internal keyway before (sheltered life and all that) so I was looking for pointers from others as to what their methods to do this might be. Anything I did (except for perhaps using a file) would need some tooling made up, so before starting out I wanted to know what the concensus was on the best way to approach things.
DP's tooling looks the way to go for the shaper but you never know - someone might have an idea on a way to broach that just uses a piece of water pipe, a length of all thread and a thrust bearing that gives a much quicker result (oh - and a 20" bicycle wheel).

Michael

Paul Alciatore
02-28-2010, 11:59 PM
Use the mill quill as a press.

Wouldn't you need a hole in the table? And wouldn't it intersect at least one of the lead screws? Or do you have a really tall mill?

Tinkerer
03-01-2010, 01:31 AM
:rolleyes: Build this... jerryrig that... By all that is wholly use the dang shaper. That's what they do the best. :D

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/Metalman-07/000_0898.jpg

The tool is relieved on both sides by about 3 or so the front has a positive rake of about the same and 5 of bottom clearance. And cutting towards the front. I place a little block the lock the clapper down. I could cut that little key in about 2 minutes or less.

If you like I can take a pic of the tool if some one else does not have one posted. Use to have a link to a page with all the shaper cutters on it... but some glitch wiped all my bookmarker :mad:.
So I've been trying to find all my good tool sites.


Sorry George.... did not mean to offend. Thanks

oldtiffie
03-01-2010, 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
Use a hydraulic press and an arbor press with a set of broatches


Do you merely use the frame of the hydraulic press to support the
arbour press? Or do you use the HP's ram to move the AP's rack?

I was once considering whether to bid on a nice hydraulic press at
a local auction for use primarily for broaching. At the time, I determined
that the conventional wisdom is that hydraulic presses do not provide
sufficient "feel" and that a consequence of this is broken broaches.


I use the HP's ram to apply pressure to the AP's ram instead of using the AP's rack and pinion.

The AP ram remains square to its base and disc which have the slots in them to allow the broatch to pass through squarely and cleanly.

I don't fancy using the 20T hydraulic press without the arbor press.

The press hydraulics are (Chinese) clones of the "Porta-Power" system. The pump is demountable if needs be and I can put it where ever I like that is within reach of the hose. The "feel" on the Porta Power is very good - same as used in Panel Shops to straighten car bodies and sub-frames.

deltaenterprizes
03-01-2010, 12:40 PM
deltaenterprizes, you shouldn't use the mill quill for a press. The rack on the quill is not designed to be a press and it will not last long doing that.
I did a 1/16 key way in .005'' steps, not much more force than necessary to drill a 1/4'' hole in steel.

deltaenterprizes
03-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Wouldn't you need a hole in the table? And wouldn't it intersect at least one of the lead screws? Or do you have a really tall mill?
I held the part in a junk 3 jaw chuck raised on parallels, a 1/16'' broach is only 5'' long.

camdigger
03-01-2010, 02:26 PM
the OP is looking for 3/16" keyways. That broach from Dumont is 6 3/4"

FWIW, the 1/4" is 11 3/4". My 1/4" needs a shim (so takes 2 passes per) and takes more than I can do with my arbor press, although I could do more if I bolted it down better.

My shop isn't equipped like the OP's shop. If it was, I'd set the shaper up to do the job. He can tool up his shaper to do any keyway for less than the $65 I had to pay for a single 3/16" broach.

There's a Southbend shaper book available from various sources for free download. I'll have to check re keyway setups.... Back inna minit.

The army version shows a keyway being cut fig 59 on pge 22 , but does not show exactly how the tool is mounted to the clapper box...

Here's a youtube video of how to mount the tool. Kinda short on narration though... The holder looks simple enough to build if you're a good welder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g47tJJ0yxXQ

SpyGuy
03-01-2010, 02:44 PM
Hey, I'd be willing to trade my set of like-new Dumont keyway broaches for a nice shaper in good condition. :D

MuellerNick
03-01-2010, 04:51 PM
Hey, I'd be willing to trade my set of like-new Dumont keyway broaches for a nice shaper in good condition.

OK, but you'd had to pay s&h! (from Germany) :)
A Gack HE 20 (200 mm stroke) with only less than 50 hours of work. Yes, 50 hours ex works, I'm the first who unpacked it. :) With the Gack, I do have 3 shapers, that's one to many.

Re making keyways on the shaper:
I have built a tool that is perfect for making keyways in small bores. http://motor-manufaktur.de/werkstatt/10_keyways/en_index.html

But making the tool is a bit tedious.

Back to broaches:
For me, DuMont seemed to be the only manufacturer. Until I bought a bigger set and this one is by HS (Hassay Savage; made in USA). Quite strange, there's no German manufacturer selling broaches through our local major dealers.
What's your oppinion about HS-broaches? They look OK, but not as good as DuMont (but then, not bad).


Nick

camdigger
03-01-2010, 05:00 PM
Back to broaches:
For me, DuMont seemed to be the only manufacturer. Nick

My broaches are an import set from Busy Bee here in Canuckland. All except for the 3/16" it is a replacement from Dumont I needed after I broke the 3/16" out of the import set. Chalked it up to misalignment and a learning experience.:rolleyes:

old blue
03-01-2010, 05:05 PM
I have used the mill quill to make key ways many times.
But not with a broach, you use it like a shaper. Put the mill in the
lowest gear to lock up the spindle. Make a round bar
with a tool bit welded to the end ground to fit the required key.
You advance the tool in to the work about .002 at a time till you are to depth.

SpyGuy
03-01-2010, 05:15 PM
OK, but you'd had to pay s&h! (from Germany) :)
A Gack HE 20 (200 mm stroke) with only less than 50 hours of work. Yes, 50 hours ex works, I'm the first who unpacked it. :) With the Gack, I do have 3 shapers, that's one to many.
I'm seriously tempted. What size is it and how much does it weigh? :p

camdigger
03-01-2010, 05:19 PM
If I have security hand check it will it fit in a carry on bag?:D :D

SWMBO's been lobbying for a trip to Europe for decades:D

MuellerNick
03-01-2010, 05:20 PM
My broaches are an import set from Busy Bee here in Canuckland.

Well, I tend to ignore Chinese manufacturers. ;)


Nick

MuellerNick
03-01-2010, 05:25 PM
If I have security hand check it will it fit in a carry on bag?

If the stewardess asks you to put that "bag" up into the tray and you don't begin to swet facing at about 400kg: YES! ;)


Nick

camdigger
03-01-2010, 05:33 PM
Well, I tend to ignore Chinese manufacturers. ;)


Nick

When you've survived by other means without broaches for 20 years and need them for one project, it made little sense to pay for european or north american product. I could have bought roughly 50 weld in hubs for what the set of imported broaches cost, much less all the other tooling needed to duplicate a well finished weld in hub.

I'm not in business, this is supposed to be fun. Otherwise, I could go back to golf and flyfishing in the summer and flytying in the winter.

johnnyd
03-01-2010, 06:13 PM
For a sweet little DRO setup, go to MuellerNick's website & check out "the YADRO files"

The guys over on the Digital Machinist forum would like that setup.;)

QSIMDO
03-01-2010, 06:35 PM
Anyone ever use these?

http://www.industrialsurplus.com/photos/073b-019.jpg

clutch
03-01-2010, 07:05 PM
Anyone ever use these?

http://www.industrialsurplus.com/photos/073b-019.jpg

Neat, I see a ratcheting system.

Clutch

Evan
03-01-2010, 07:54 PM
It isn't hard to build something like this.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics/hs1.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/slotter1.jpg

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics/sheave5.jpg

form_change
03-02-2010, 01:55 AM
Now we've come full circle - My original question was because I was not sure whether to make up the tooling for a shaper (such as illustrated by DP) or to use a hand powered device like Evan's.
I'll still go the shaper route, but one day I'll need to make up a device like Evan's anyway to do some graduations.

Michael