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EVguru
03-12-2010, 11:13 AM
Don't actually make one, just 3D render!

http://panthermotorcycle.com/Home.html

My BS detector went into meltdown very early on reading the blurb.

chrisfournier
03-12-2010, 11:28 AM
Is that grotesque! Thank god only pixels have been abused and no real steel has been committed to that shape shifter of a "bike".

Circlip
03-12-2010, 11:33 AM
Knew I hadn't heard anything in Cleckheaton.

Regards Ian

MotorradMike
03-12-2010, 11:37 AM
Form follows what?

John Stevenson
03-12-2010, 11:40 AM
Why did that picture remind me of Wallace and Grommet ??

Anyone else get the same thoughts ?

.

johnnyd
03-12-2010, 11:43 AM
Seems like someone needs to learn about the "box" before they start thinking outside it.:)

Circlip
03-12-2010, 11:58 AM
Wonder if they are fitting Lukearse electrics?? and I can't see any chariot brackets??

MuellerNick
03-12-2010, 12:09 PM
Did you read the text of the link in the lower left?

March, no, MARCH! Not April!


Nick

aboard_epsilon
03-12-2010, 12:15 PM
dont understand

why have a futuristic looking bike with a single cylinder Pushrod engine :confused:

All the best.markj

Doozer
03-12-2010, 12:22 PM
It looks goofy and stupid.
It should appeal to many out there in the general public.

--Doozer

Spin Doctor
03-12-2010, 02:51 PM
dont understand

why have a futuristic looking bike with a single cylinder Pushrod engine :confused:

All the best.markj

So you can capture the portion of the market that thinks Harley is too high tech :D

Circlip
03-12-2010, 02:59 PM
why have a futuristic looking bike with a single cylinder Pushrod engine


Cos the Panfer always was a single sloper 600cc chariot dragger, single exhaust pipe is a mistake though.

Regards Ian.

darryl
03-12-2010, 03:11 PM
What a neat lookin bike! :) (somebody had to say that) Yeah, I couldn't get through the blurb. I did think there were a couple of good ideas in there, though.

That black lookin thing down below- what is that, an EPA certified device- an oil collector?

psomero
03-12-2010, 03:19 PM
"turbo hemi"


hopefully chrysler will go after them for trademark infringement and their ridiculous website will be forced out of existence...

aboard_epsilon
03-12-2010, 03:19 PM
why have a futuristic looking bike with a single cylinder Pushrod engine


Cos the Panfer always was a single sloper 600cc chariot dragger, single exhaust pipe is a mistake though.

Regards Ian.

It don't look anything like a panther...where is the big triangle bit that should stick out at the front of the sump.

hate the design ............must have been cooked up by those TRON movie affectionados....Totally inpracticle..not a workhorse like said old panther

think they are a long way off from this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Panther_100_600_cc_1936.jpg

psomero
03-12-2010, 03:22 PM
from the design page: "On the electric forefront

we are working with the leading experts in the industry

to create an electric bike that can go all day on a single charge.

That way it is a viable tool for long distance riding."





bwahahahahahahaha


(i work for an electric motorcycle company and the all day claim made me LOL)

psomero
03-12-2010, 04:59 PM
"
FRAME

The frame is rust free Stainless Steel.

We decided it should not be aluminum

because it is part of the suspension

and needs to give the proper "feel" to the rider."




HAHAHA

there is no such thing as a stainless steel that'd be suitable for a structural application such as this.


my bs meter just exploded

darryl
03-12-2010, 05:59 PM
Sorry about your meter :)

oldtiffie
03-12-2010, 09:42 PM
why have a futuristic looking bike with a single cylinder Pushrod engine


Cos the Panfer always was a single sloper 600cc chariot dragger, single exhaust pipe is a mistake though.

Regards Ian.



It don't look anything like a panther...where is the big triangle bit that should stick out at the front of the sump.

hate the design ............must have been cooked up by those TRON movie affectionados....Totally inpracticle..not a workhorse like said old panther

think they are a long way off from this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Panther_100_600_cc_1936.jpg


There is no mistaking the 600cc "Slopey" "Panther" bike. Long stroke, slow revving, lottsa torque, slanted pot, push-rods, big flat under the sump, made for side-cars - and one power stroke (and "bang") every two lamp posts.

They, like some Harley-Davidson's and Indians quite often had a big box on them instead of a side-car and were also used for butcher and grocery etc. deliveries as well as tool-boxes for traveling tradesmen (Builders/Carpenters etc.).

Never mind the "Panther" - just hope you get picked up by some "hot" Cougar who thinks its next one might be its last one!!! It might be the "town bike"!!!

Not this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar

This one!!!:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=cougar+women&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&fp=98f33b0d2303fec5

S_J_H
03-12-2010, 09:54 PM
Very very odd bike and manufacturer, whoever that may be.
Spend a few minutes at the site reading the specs etc.
There are some interesting theoretical idea's, but everything is worded and presented like it was written by a teenage techno geek wearing a tinfoil hat.
I see one of the contacts is in Hong Kong :rolleyes:

Steve
p.s., sorry if I offended any teenage techno geek's wearing a tinfoil hat.

Mike Nash
03-13-2010, 08:22 AM
I don't ride, but I sure don't think it looks "worse" than some of the crap I see people riding on the road. These posts seem to reek of "Not invented here". I see a lot of the newer autos on the road that look far more mickey mouse.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 02:25 PM
So I had a delay in being confirmed to the forum,
so I sent direct replies to posters.

Now I am in, so I'll respond directly
Panther is a bike that has been designed
with the help of people like you over several years
and so it is important to us to try to respond
to as many comments as we can.
We are especially interested in any negative comments
because there is occasionally a jewel in there
that helps us to improve.

I know you are all hobbyists
and so I shall try to be understanding of that
although I can be blunt and so I occasionally come across as rude
so my regrets ahead of time.

I understand you are hobbyists
so comments like believing stainless steel is not good for a frame
or an electric cannot go all day on a charge is understandable.
We all know less than we don't know.

The Panther is designed to take the rider anywhere
so it shapeshifts and the frame reflects that.
The criss-cross is a bit odd,
but the bike is first and foremost about function and longevity.

The bike is not in any way related to the old British Panther.
It is also not related to any other German, Chinese etc Panther either.

It comes in a Single, Twin or Electric.

The 480-E model electric carries a nano-Polymer Lithium-Ion battery
with a 28 kwh capacity .... 480 miles .... 8 hrs @ 60 mph.
We use special charging algorithms and special neodymium motor.

The person who claimed to work for an electric motorcycle company
needs to know that this, unlike other electric motorcycles, is not a toy
it is not a little battery for 25-40 mile of playtime.

This motorcycle was designed for military use.

Feel free to email me if you have any questions.
either at IDS-Research or at Panther Motorcycle.

Tony.B@PantherMotorcycle.com

What I am most interested in the the reasons for any conclusions you state,
not so much the conclusions themselves.
Any idiot can hit-and-run.
I am interested in thought and reasoning.

MuellerNick
06-24-2010, 03:14 PM
I know you are all hobbyists

Who not? We all do have a hobby, some try to make a living out of it.


This motorcycle was designed for military use.

OK, great! I mean, you are talking about that two-wheeled vehicle (http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Panther_(Special)/Home.html)?
Is it military, because of the paint?
Is the saddle purpose built for fat generals?
Is it intended for cross country? And if so, did you ever in your live ride a X-country bike? If I only look where the food pegs are, I have doubts. Serious doubts. VERY serious doubts!
Is that military bike supposed to transport anything? If so, where do you place that.
What does a transformer frame serve in the rough conditions crossing mud, falling down a hill, getting one bump after the other?
Did you get a license for the fork construction? I think BMW has some patents for it.
What is the advantage of the chopper geometry in cross country usage? (Tip: you are the first one to come up with that solution).
Do you see an advantage of the disk wheels in collecting mud?
What kind of racing do you think about? I have never seen something similar being used. But I'm not into drag racing.



Nick

topct
06-24-2010, 04:06 PM
These images will help everyone heal, :D

http://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/bikes/Norton%20Commando%20961%20Cafe%20Racer/

MuellerNick
06-24-2010, 05:41 PM
These images will help everyone heal,

Agreed!
Much better suited for offroad.:D


Nick

gnm109
06-24-2010, 05:51 PM
why have a futuristic looking bike with a single cylinder Pushrod engine


Cos the Panfer always was a single sloper 600cc chariot dragger, single exhaust pipe is a mistake though.

Regards Ian.


Correct on the dual exhausts with one exhaust valve. I recall seeing numerous Panthers in Chicago when was but a mere child. There were also a few Ariel singles with the old-style sprung fork and dual exhausts.

The original Panther was a nice machine with a lovely sound. I understand that they were an excellent sidecar machine.

.

rohart
06-24-2010, 06:10 PM
That Norton is extraordinary in this day and age - I assume it's current, the site looks current.

The Norton looks like a Norton, the engine timing side looks like Norton, and the specs show the engine is built just like a real (60's thru 80's) bike engine.

It's even air cooled.

A real 'retro', while Triumph go around misusing old model numbers and creating so called classics that look nothing like classics.

My only reservation is the height of the engine mounts. A classic Norton cafe racer would have had the crank roughly in line with the axle centres, while this has the crank 3 or so inches higher. Tut tut...

Thanks for the link. Very cheering !

topct
06-24-2010, 06:12 PM
Agreed!
Much better suited for offroad.:D


Nick

Here offroad means in the dirt.

What is your definition?

John Stevenson
06-24-2010, 06:26 PM
I still think it was designed by Wallace and Grommet................



.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 07:06 PM
.... in response to Nick Mueller ....

http://www.Panthermotorcycle.com/Panther_(IC)/Home_files/baby%20copy.png

and then the electric .....
http://www.Panthermotorcycle.com/Panther_(Electric)/Home_files/electricBaby.png

OK, great! I mean, you are talking about that two-wheeled vehicle?
Is it military, because of the paint?

Watch me be polite and patient.

So, Nick, what does paint have to do with it ?
I am confused by your reply already.

Yes the military has a choice of Khaki or Army Green
and there are over 20 camo patterns that can be heat-shrunk on,
but that is not what makes a bike worthy
for the kind of service where someone is putting his ass on the line.
That becomes about a lot of engineering and over-engineering.

Is the saddle purpose built for fat generals?

The saddle is 24 inches long and 12 inches wide.
Not that wide for "Fat Generals".
The reasons it is so long are several, from 2-up riding
to having the right profile for sitting and straddling as the bike changes shape
and the saddle changes position.

http://www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Documents_(Design)/Saddles.pdf

Is it intended for cross country?
And if so, did you ever in your live ride a X-country bike?
If I only look where the food pegs are,
I have doubts. Serious doubts. VERY serious doubts!

Nick, are you talking about the bike stretched out for hi-way
and imagining it off-road ?
Ok, let me take you by the hand and walk you thru this.

http://www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Videos.html.

Notice that the center of pivot is the position of the feet
under the rider as the bike is shortened for off-road.
These dimensions and proportions are very exact.

http://http://www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Compare.html

Get it now ?
Militaries need a bike that can take them anywhere without compromize.
Hunters want the same.

Most young riders also want a bike that lasts and can take them anywhere.
Most younger riders can't stand the crispy plastic under-engineered crap
that used to pass for motorcycles.
They actiually want technology.

Young people want stuff that lasts, is easy to work on and has fewer limits.

Is that military bike supposed to transport anything?
If so, where do you place that.

What the militaries do not want is a wide heavy pig
with lots of equipment tacked all over it
just so it can carry more just in case.
They want it nimble.

Look at the FRAME brochure on the Design page.

http://www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Design.html
(http://http://www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Design.html)

Two bikes can be carted together to transport wounded and equipment.
Why ? Because that is what is asked for.
That is what hunters want too so they can carry out their game.

What does a transformer frame serve in the rough conditions
crossing mud, falling down a hill, getting one bump after the other?

The on-the-fly shapeshifting has many advantages both on and off road.
Again you will need to see the frame brochure.

http://www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Design/Frame.pdf

The shocks have 8 inches of travel when off-road (4" on-road)
and automatically adjust to load and conditions.

Did you get a license for the fork construction?
I think BMW has some patents for it.

Not so.
Double wishbone is not a technology owned by anyone.
It has been around for a very long time.

The particular unique set-up we have,
is a special variation owned by IDS Research.

What is the advantage of the chopper geometry in cross country usage?
(Tip: you are the first one to come up with that solution).

Stretching the bike out is for the open hi-way.
The thinner and longer, the better at speed.

Off-road you (or at least I) would shapshift to Enduro
or in really tight steep woods maybe even Trials geometry
depending on the exact conditions you are facing.

Do you see an advantage of the disk wheels in collecting mud?

Physics 101 .... a disk wheel collects less mud than a spoked wheel.
It is what several militaries asked for.

We have stated for them that it is a disadvantage when crossing a creek
because the water flow has no place to go,
but it is a distinct advantage in sand.

The wheels pop on and off with one nut,
so it is easy to adapt the bike for that days ride.
Each bike comes with three sets of wheels. (road, off-road and Enduro)

The worst for collecting mud are wire-wheels.

What kind of racing do you think about?
I have never seen something similar being used.
But I'm not into drag racing.

The three time winner of the Baja 1000 will be racing the bike there.
We are also developing a version to race Motard.
This is all about testing and learning
so we can apply what we learn to all of our machines.

Not that interested in drag racing (6 inch wide rear tire)
but the engine does have a 4-bolt main
and the Cobalt-Tungsten engine parts
are made not to sieze under extreme heat
so no telling what someone may try to do with their bike.
(would nix the 6 yr warranty though).

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 07:26 PM
Norton went to Beaverton, Oregon (just outside Portland)
where Paul Gaudio (the R&D guy) and Bruce Murdock (the money guy)
did a great design job on the bike,
but spent all their effort and money on design
and not nearly enough for designing the company or the factory.

They thought they were in the business of Motorcycles
when they needed first to be in the business of business.

Now it is back in the UK where it belongs
and their future, although far from assured, is hopeful
as long as they keep it focused, flexible and lean.
I wish them all the best.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 07:34 PM
Triumph is now the fastest growing motorcycle company in the world.
They walked a fine line and are in fact two Triumphs.
The classic and the new.

The new bikes, especially their little cafe triple is really sweet.
The classics may not be totally true to the old,
but keep in mind that they have to build these in a "modern" Socialist UK
where nobody gets to do their best.

Soon these bikes will be forced to be all fuel injected as well,
so give them credit for doing what they can.

Neil Wright (now with VePro Engineering)
worked side by side with Mike Lock (USA CEO of Ducati)
to bring the brand back
and all concerned did what is usually impossible
(resurrecting a dead brand)
and did it in a way that paid proper homage to the past
while stepping boldly into the future.

If you ever get a chance, ride the new little triple
and be amazed at the balance of that package.

John Stevenson
06-24-2010, 07:37 PM
We have seen renderings and 3D visualisations.
How many actual bikes are there ? and why don't we get to see actual bikes and not 3D renderings ?


.

aboard_epsilon
06-24-2010, 07:50 PM
I've not done much off roading ..but i know it involves standing up on the bike ...from the looks of it ...if you stand on that bike your centre of gravity is going to be too forward ...and your knees are going to be against the handle bars ..miltary bikes are required to carry lots of equipment and have panniers ..unless its just ment as an sas bike ..and not a general duty dispatch bike

it also doesnt look like it can be dropped on the ground in accidents fall-offs etc ..and be able to be picked up and ridden again with little damage...which is what would be required of any off-road bike, never mind militery.

it looks more like an excersise in art and design rather than fuctionality or rebustness.

no spell check on this comp ..so sorry for the spelling.

all the best.markj

gaston
06-24-2010, 07:52 PM
I hope no one was injured in the accident. could you post the before photos? nothing that ugly could have happened by design it had to be the result of a crash .

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 07:58 PM
The bikes you see are a combination of CAD files and renderings.
This is done because it allows us
to show much better detail and proper lighting.

The few parts that are pure renderings (such as the calipers)
are because Brembo is making custom CNC calipers
and we have no received the files yet.
The center of the brake disks are also renderings.

In modern engineering, such as when designing an aircraft,
every part is designed in a computer
and there we test temperatures, loads (torsions etc)
and do such testing as you cannot accurately visualize in physical models.

The reason these images are used
are mainly because they show detail better
so the reader can better understand.

When you see a car commercial what you think is a real car,
is very very rarely so. It is "better than real"
because you can see it more clearly.
It is about communicating accurately.

We also do not want to show an actual bike before its formal debut
because that would upset the marketing folks quite a bit.
To make sure there is still some surprise to look forward to
there are a few subtle differences between what you see
and what we will be showing at its formal debut.
otherwise so much of the fun of anticipation would be gone.

gnm109
06-24-2010, 08:01 PM
Triumph is now the fastest growing motorcycle company in the world.
They walked a fine line and are in fact two Triumphs.
The classic and the new.

The new bikes, especially their little cafe triple is really sweet.
The classics may not be totally true to the old,
but keep in mind that they have to build these in a "modern" Socialist UK
where nobody gets to do their best.

Soon these bikes will be forced to be all fuel injected as well,
so give them credit for doing what they can.

Neil Wright (now with VePro Engineering)
worked side by side with Mike Lock (USA CEO of Ducati)
to bring the brand back
and all concerned did what is usually impossible
(resurrecting a dead brand)
and did it in a way that paid proper homage to the past
while stepping boldly into the future.

If you ever get a chance, ride the new little triple
and be amazed at the balance of that package.


I still want a 1937 350cc Triumph with upswept pipes. The original Triumphs were a wonderful bike. They were far ahead of their time in the 1950's when I started riding. They were all over Chicago since it was a large port and there were wholesalers there for British, Italian and Czech bikes as well as numerous dealers.

It's good that the name was resurrected and they are making some nice machines now but I still prefer the original ones designed by the inimitable Colonel Turner.

John Stevenson
06-24-2010, 08:01 PM
So condensed into one line, it's vapourware then ?

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 08:03 PM
When the bike is at its shortest, the weight is rearward
so it is easier to pop over logs etc.

When the bike is stretched, the weight is slightly forward
for a better front wheel plant.

The bodywork is a Kevlar /Carbon Fiber matrix
embedded in an Ultra-High Density Cross-Linked Poly-Ethylene.
The color is in that Poly-E so it never needs painting.

The side-pods you see have several functions
including protecting the leg in a fall
while not snagging on underbrush off-road.
(they also protect the computer mounted between them
and keep wind off the rider's mid-section on the hi-way)

John Stevenson
06-24-2010, 08:04 PM
It's good that the name was resurrected and they are making some nice machines now but I still prefer the original ones designed by the inimitable Colonel Turner.

No that was Colonel Sanders, he invented the soggy chicken

Edward Turner designed the speed twin which only handled like a soggy chicken.

.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 08:07 PM
So condensed into one line, it's vapourware then ?

No John.
Engineering doesn't work that way.
I think you are confusing Engineering with BlackSmithing.

If you just go balls-to-the-wall and build,
you end up like "Orange County Choppers"
cake decorating a bike together that doesn't ride well and doesn't last.
You can't just machine shop and weld something together and call it done.

Then you end up like the way many bikes were done is the day of the old Brit Panther
with some parts done well and others awful.

Designing is about systems not parts.
It is about processes.

gnm109
06-24-2010, 08:09 PM
No that was Colonel Sanders, he invented the soggy chicken

Edward Turner designed the speed twin which only handled like a soggy chicken.

.


Are you certain that it wasn't a Bridgeport? :D Actually, I've ridden literally every British bike I could find and owned many of them and they all handled very well.

You Brits should take more pride in having stolen an entire generation of teenagers in the US and made them useless for anything other than riding your bikes. I happened to me...:)

Michael Edwards
06-24-2010, 08:22 PM
We have seen renderings and 3D visualisations.
How many actual bikes are there ? and why don't we get to see actual bikes and not 3D renderings ?

.

From the Kneeslider

The bike only exists in the computer at the moment while they look for investors. According to the web site they plan to produce the first bikes in March of 2008.

We will be taking pre-orders probably by the end of the month, so you won’t have too long to wait.


For the rest of the story go to the Kneeslider

Kneeslider (http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/02/05/r-bike-shape-shifting-motorcycle/)

Don't hold your breath John. You will be an advocate of BP's before you see actual test data from a respectable motorcycle magazine that lives up to the hype. IMO, this is a scam. Take a stock CRF450, add lights and supermoto tires and it would outperform the Panther on the dirt or the road without shape shifting or stopping and waiting for the support vehichle to stop by with your change of tires. And you wouldn't be embarrased to be seen on it.
Tony, I am, like you, trying to be civil. But it is difficult to do in the face of your wild claims, like the range of the electric bike, with no bike to back it up.


ME

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 08:23 PM
I removed this

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 08:25 PM
Are you certain that it wasn't a Bridgeport? :D Actually, I've ridden literally every British bike I could find and owned many of them and they all handled very well.

You Brits should take more pride in having stolen an entire generation of teenagers in the US and made them useless for anything other than riding your bikes. I happened to me...:)


Yes and I so loved the carbs and the wiring.
Just brilliant engineering.

You know it's like longing for that old car you so loved when you were young
and if you drove it today, it would feel like a nasty old truck.

Memories are so much sweeter, aren't they !

Ken_Shea
06-24-2010, 08:32 PM
It looks goofy and stupid.
It should appeal to many out there in the general public.

--Doozer

I find the use of the word stupid offensive :D

Robin R
06-24-2010, 08:32 PM
Memories are so much sweeter, aren't they !

Sort of like dreams.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 08:39 PM
From the Kneeslider

The bike only exists in the computer at the moment while they look for investors. According to the web site they plan to produce the first bikes in March of 2008.

We will be taking pre-orders probably by the end of the month, so you won’t have too long to wait.


For the rest of the story go to the Kneeslider

Kneeslider (http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/02/05/r-bike-shape-shifting-motorcycle/)

Don't hold your breath John. You will be an advocate of BP's before you see actual test data from a respectable motorcycle magazine that lives up to the hype. IMO, this is a scam. Take a stock CRF450, add lights and supermoto tires and it would outperform the Panther on the dirt or the road without shape shifting or stopping and waiting for the support vehichle to stop by with your change of tires. And you wouldn't be embarrased to be seen on it.
Tony, I am, like you, trying to be civil. But it is difficult to do in the face of your wild claims, like the range of the electric bike, with no bike to back it up.


ME

When the economy collapsed in 2008, production was delayed.
It would have been stupid to produce then,
but development continued especially on the electric.

Nobody said there was no bike
and to imagine comparing it to a CRF 450 is just brain dead.

If you want to be civil it does help to use the brain God gave you.
Saying something stupid and being civil gets you nowhere.

You question the range of the electric ?
Do the math.
28 kwh, 425 lb bike with a 200 lb rider.

We have one of the two inventors of Lithium-Ion technology on board
He is the MIT Pioneer of the technology back on the A123 Project.
I am also MIT.

Our CEO is the former head of Production for Mercedes.

Our CMO is the former EVP of Global marketing for Ford
back when they owned Aston.

Our CFO is the former 25 year CEO of Chrysler
back in the height of that company.

I have the patience to answer your questions,
but if you want to act like an idiot throwing mud against the wall,
then you can do it alone.

Michael Edwards
06-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Nobody said there was no bike
and to imagine comparing it to a CRF 450 is just brain dead.

I have the patience to answer your questions,
but if you want to act like an idiot throwing mud against the wall,
then you can do it alone.

Talk is cheap. Like I said, show me the tests from one of the major cycle mags that back it up and I will be the first give you kudos. You must have not looked at your website lately, it clearly shows a comparison to not only a supermoto style of bike but also a trials bike. And you call me brain dead. :rolleyes:

ME

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 09:03 PM
BTW-
We posted the original images about 2 years ago
because rather than having Madison Avenue tell us what our customers want
we wanted everyone involved.

As a result the bike now has over 100 design options
with several body options on the way.

Panther is a Canadian brand
which is why the go-anywhere nature of the beast.

We originally felt it better to produce in the States
but with the 2008 economic collapse and the regime now in power
we are waiting until at least November
before we decide whether to keep firm with our American production plan
or produce in a freer country like Canada.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 09:11 PM
Talk is cheap. Like I said, show me the tests from one of the major cycle mags that back it up and I will be the first give you kudos. You must have not looked at your website lately, it clearly shows a comparison to not only a supermoto style of bike but also a trials bike. And you call me brain dead. :rolleyes:

ME

What is being compared is physical proportions

www.PantherMotorcycle.com/Compare.html

but the power curve also changes
to drop the torque curve lower in the RPM range as the frame shortens.

The shortest frame setting is for very tight woods
where you find yourself almost walking the bike between tight trees.
The chart is to show you that we got the proportions right.

PS-
I do not recall directly referring to you as brain-dead.
Even smart people can make brain-dead remarks at times.
I simply ask for an intellectual dialog
rather than mud-throwing.

Little boys toss mud to feel strong and have an effect.
As adults it is embarrassing.

We shall only debut the physical bike when we are ready for production.
In the meantime those are for testing only.
When we do our debut, the media will get its tests in
and you will be all happy, yes ?

Rustybolt
06-24-2010, 09:14 PM
Build one. Just one. And then get back to us.

Let us know if you run into any manufacturing problems. Between all of us here we've probably run into and solved anything you will be running into.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 09:32 PM
Build one. Just one. And then get back to us.

Let us know if you run into any manufacturing problems. Between all of us here we've probably run into and solved anything you will be running into.

Did I ever say one was not built ?
Building the final one for final show is not.

Thank you for the offer to help.
I thought this forum was for hobby machinists ?
I did not know that Process Engineers, Physicists, Mechanical Engineers,
Fluidics experts, Electrical Engineers, Metallurgists. programers
and other such types where available.

I appreciate your responses, I truly do,
but designing a bike is a hugely more complex task than many appreciate
and it has taken over 9 years to get to this production ready stage.

Even little matters such as the dimpling of the intake port
and the exact timing between injection ports
and the exact initial bend in the exhaust
to create just the right temperature and back-pressure
just the right distance from the valve seat.

The exact shape of the combustion chamber.

The precise shaping of the frame spar
so the suspension feedback is just right
and the controlled flex engineered into the frame
takes place in a controlled fashion
exactly the right distance from the steering linkage
to place the front tire at exactly the right angle
at the exactly perfect speed.

There is so much involved that it boggles the mind.
That is why there is such a huge difference
between the bikes of the past and the bikes of the present
and now just as big a difference between today's bikes and the Panther.

If you take the time to read the booklets in the Design section,
you will get a hint of how everything worked together
in such great detail in a way that has never happened before.
That is why I spoke of systems engineering versus parts engineering
versus blacksmithing a bike together.
That is why it took 9+ years.
That is why continue to be ever so detailed and patient.

It is intellectually fascinating
and I am happy to have had a chance to answer questions
and offer to share this with you.
It is fu stuff for the mind
and once we are in production, fun stuff for the soul as well.

Thanks for the time.
Cheers

The Artful Bodger
06-24-2010, 09:42 PM
Did I ever say one was not built ?
Building the final one for final show is not.

Thank you for the offer to help.
I thought this forum was for hobby machinists ?
I did not know that Process Engineers, Physicists, Mechanical Engineers,
Fluidics experts, Electrical Engineers, Metallurgists. programers
and other such types where available.



Flippin 'eck Tony, we have individuals who are all those things, and more!:)

Good luck with your project!

oldtiffie
06-24-2010, 09:48 PM
Good response Tony.

Quite a few with those qualifications are members here - as a hobby and for relaxation. We are quite an eclectic mix!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclecticism

Getting some here to work together at all let alone for a common purpose or for an extended time would be like pinning jello on the wall or herding cats - or both.

Don't let 'em get under your guard or your skin. Just let 'em know that you are not a show-ground "Aunt Sally" - which you seem to be doing pretty well anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Sally

Evan
06-24-2010, 09:51 PM
In the electric version what is the maximum watts per kilo that the motor(s) will draw for more than 30 seconds?

What is the ratio of battery weight to overall weight with 80 kilo rider?

What is the maximum sustained top speed?

What voltage is the electric system?

What battery technology is used?

What type of transmission is used for the electric model?

What magnet technology is used in the motor?

I am interested in your replies because I am designing and building a hybrid electric/gasoline motorcycle.

http://ixian.ca/pics6/etrike1.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/etriketest1c.jpg

J. Randall
06-24-2010, 10:03 PM
Tony, I am one of those hobby guys you keep popping off about, and so far I am not even interested enough to look at your website, but if you keep goading the forum in general you are probably going to get spanked. There are a lot with education and expertise that post here. If you are wise you will back off until you have a product.
James

Michael Edwards
06-24-2010, 10:03 PM
designing a bike is a hugely more complex task than many appreciate
and it has taken over 9 years to get to this production ready stage.



I do actually appreciate the amount of effort it would take to make a project like that fly. If you are on the level, then I wish you all the best. At least it is not another cookie cutter v-twin or crotch rocket. I will keep an eye on the Kneeslider for updates.

ME

RobbieKnobbie
06-24-2010, 10:33 PM
Thank you for the offer to help.
I thought this forum was for hobby machinists ?
I did not know that Process Engineers, Physicists, Mechanical Engineers,
Fluidics experts, Electrical Engineers, Metallurgists. programers
and other such types where available.



As a fellow who holds degrees in two of the above mentioned fields, and who has spent several years working in a third, your presumption is obnoxious and misinformed.

Way to make friends, pal.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 10:58 PM
[COLOR="Red"]In the electric version what is the maximum watts per kilo that the motor(s) will draw for more than 30 seconds?

35 hp .... 1 hp = 745.699872 watts.

It takes a lot less to cruise.
A typical 2 ton car only uses 15 hp to cruise.

What is the ratio of battery weight to overall weight with 80 kilo rider?

We use a special low solvent nano-Polymer battery technology
so a 28 kwh battery array weighs less than 250 lbs.
If we did not use the low solvent technology it would be about 300 lbs.

What is the maximum sustained top speed?

We limit our speed to 90 mph.
We can cruise for 8 hrs @ 60 mph with the 480-E
With our budget $17k 120E we can go 120 miles @ 60 mph.

Because of our charging algorithms
we can charge 7 kwh in one hr at 240 volt and 2 hours @ 110v
The 480-E takes 8 hrs @ 100v and 4 hrs @ 240v.

What voltage is the electric system?

The higher the voltage, the higher the speed.
For you we suggest perhaps somewhere in the 70's
although the images you sent look like rather slow vehicles.
You be the judge.

What battery technology is used?

We use a nano-Polymer Lithium-Ion technology developed for NASA.

The technology is changing very fast.
I spoke with the world's leading researcher in Korea
and he is hopeful that there will be a 5 fold increase in 3 years.
We shall see.

The key is nano-Tech.
if you can increase the surface area
you increase the capacity and speed of a charge.
The downside is that the battery becomes more fragile
(like a salt-sponge)
They are trying to overcome this by coating the salt in alumina.

If you charge too fast the lithium swells and cracks,
decreasing the life of the very expensive battery.

If you charge too much, "hairs" form on the anode and it can cause fires.
They are playing with carbon nano-tubes for anode
to help eliminate this.
All very experimental.

We are carefully charging in layers to keep the cracking from occurring
and while you may be lucky to get 2 years out of a laptop battery,
experts tell us up to 15 years from ours
and we provide a 6 yr warranty
while realistically expecting 8-10 years.

The 480-E can power a typical home for 2 days of stand-by
but costs $5k per 7 KWH.

Typical motorcycle and car charge distances are 40 miles
and often a lot less with spirited driving or at low temperatures.


What type of transmission is used for the electric model?

None

What magnet technology is used in the motor?

Neodymium N-52

I suggest you go brushless
because it is a lot less maintenance (no brushed to replace),
the ozone smell does not exist and it is a lot quieter.



From what I see in you pictures I would recommend 1000 watt motor in the hub
and 2 Lithum bricks (about 1.5kwh total).
Otherwise for that kind of vehicle it will get too expensive for you
and you won't find the market.

Already a typical bicycle is 350-600 watts
and carries one brick.

I would keep it in the 12-36 volt range.
You need to figure how much load you want to carry
and what the trade off needs to be between torque and HP.

Figure to cruise at 20 mph.

India is making the most strides in these types of bikes.
I would take a look on the Web at what they are doing.

"HeroHonda" comes to mind.


This is what I would do ....

Use an existing hub motor of about 600W.
Put one on each of the rear wheels.
Get hold of an Electrical Talent.
Use an off-the-shelf controller.

Program it to run one motor until a certain load level is reached
and then automatically kick in the second motor.
That way you have efficiency when you can
and extra torque to carry loads ONLY when you need it.

Use 2 lithium bricks but have easy plug-in room for optional bricks.
Keep an eye on the price though.
It can easily get out of hand
and the you have an expensive toy with no takers.

Don't re-invent if you don't need to.
Keep it simple.





I am interested in your replies because I am designing and building a hybrid electric/gasoline motorcycle.

http://ixian.ca/pics6/etrike1.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/etriketest1c.jpg

gnm109
06-24-2010, 11:00 PM
Yes and I so loved the carbs and the wiring.
Just brilliant engineering.

You know it's like longing for that old car you so loved when you were young
and if you drove it today, it would feel like a nasty old truck.

Memories are so much sweeter, aren't they !


Well, they were sweet then and now. I have to tell you that my 1957 BSA Gold Star (DB34) was one damn fine motorcycle. On alcohol, which we ran in Scrambles and TT's in Southern California at the time, it did about 50 hp. and handled perfectly.

Then there was the 1954 Ariel Red Hunter, the 56 Triumph TR6 and the Triumph 200 cc Tiger Cub, all of which I raced. I didn't worry about the wiring. All we had to worry about was a magneto and a kill button.

The great thing about British bikes was how easy it was to work on them and the relatively cheap parts prices at the time.

I've got only happy memories of that time. It wasn't bad at all......Oh yeah, it also taught me how to weld and I learned to use a lathe cutting down Harley flywheels. It was more fun than the homework. LOL. :)

gnm109
06-24-2010, 11:11 PM
Tony. For the record, there are some rather sophisticated and well-educated folks on this list. There are scientists, engineers, lawyers, professional and home type machinists and welders among others who have similar interests. Once you get the lay of the land around here, you may have a lot of fun. I certainly do......

You will also find that there are many people on this list who know something about motorycles. I personally have owned more than 40 of them and still do ride even after many years.

Happy Trails. :)

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 11:12 PM
Well, they were sweet then and now. I have to tell you that my 1957 BSA Gold Star (DB34) was one damn fine motorcycle. On alcohol, which we ran in Scrambles and TT's in Southern California at the time, it did about 50 hp. and handled perfectly.

Then there was the 1954 Ariel Red Hunter, the 56 Triumph TR6 and the Triumph 200 cc Tiger Cub, all of which I raced. I didn't worry about the wiring. All we had to worry about was a magneto and a kill button.


The great thing about British bikes was how easy it was to work on them and the relatively cheap parts prices at the time.

I've got only happy memories of that time. It wasn't bad at all......Oh yeah, it also taught me how to weld and I learned to use a lathe cutting down Harley flywheels. It was more fun than the homework. LOL. :)

Don't get me wrong,
I loved the Tiger Cub !
I also spent many hours sitting on the front tire of a Spitfire
(although I put Mikuni carbs on it)

Love the TR-6 although the rear end was a bitch.

Had a Norton Commando.

Love the sound as much as the Bonneville TT.

Love the Aston and the Bentley Continental GT.

Just sometimes a shame when it takes Ford to get the Jaguar straightened out
and Germany to get the Mini Cooper straightened out.

I am a Brit fan, but sometimes I just want to wring a neck.

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 11:15 PM
Tony. For the record, there are some rather sophisticated and well-educated folks on this list. There are scientists, engineers, lawyers, professional and home type machinists and welders among others who have similar interests. Once you get the lay of the land around here, you may have a lot of fun. I certainly do......

You will also find that there are many people on this list who know something about motorycles. I personally have owned more than 40 of them and still do ride even after many years.

Happy Trails. :)


40!
You must either be single
or have saint for a wife !

drof34
06-24-2010, 11:24 PM
That looks like a pecker chomping frame to me. :eek:

Does the engine hang from the gas tank?

Tony Botello
06-24-2010, 11:35 PM
That looks like a pecker chomping frame to me. :eek:

Does the engine hang from the gas tank?

There are 4 hollow rods.
The rods are attached to the long-spars of the frame.

They allow the engine to move
to redistribute the weight as the frame shapeshifts.

They also carry the direct oil feeds to the valves and the crankshaft.

Since they are oil-filled, they also act as vibration dampers.
(along with a host of other vibration damping techniques discussed in the Frame booklet.)

What you see as the tank, is a Kevlar cover over several modules
including the tank.

Ff you look at the Video page, you can see the engine move.
This is so the weight is correct
(ever so slightly rearward when short, slightly forward when long)

It also makes sure the brake feel stays consistent

it also makes sure the fins get angled better for hi-speed cooling.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 12:28 AM
What a neat lookin bike! :) (somebody had to say that) Yeah, I couldn't get through the blurb. I did think there were a couple of good ideas in there, though.

That black lookin thing down below- what is that, an EPA certified device- an oil collector?

The skid-plate is also the center stand and holds all 4 qts in case there is a leak so it doesn't end up in the environment.

Evan
06-25-2010, 01:10 AM
Tony,

You didn't answer my questions.

In the electric version what is the maximum watts per kilo that the motor(s) will draw for more than 30 seconds?

Watts per kilo of vehicle weight is what I want to know. That is the power to weight ratio.

What is the ratio of battery weight to overall weight with 80 kilo rider?

I would like to know what percentage of the vehicle weight is batteries.

What voltage is the electric system? (on your bike)

Answer is?


Use an existing hub motor of about 600W.
Put one on each of the rear wheels.
Get hold of an Electrical Talent.
Use an off-the-shelf controller.

Program it to run one motor until a certain load level is reached
and then automatically kick in the second motor.
That way you have efficiency when you can
and extra torque to carry loads ONLY when you need it.

Use 2 lithium bricks but have easy plug-in room for optional bricks.
Keep an eye on the price though.
It can easily get out of hand
and the you have an expensive toy with no takers.


I am running up to 48 volts with a motor I custom wound and installed a heavier brush system that will produce up to about 6 hp peak with forced air cooling. I haven't yet built a PWM controller for it but it is on the list. Existing designs are mostly too fragile so I have designed my own with a maximum load capability of 2000 amps for 30 seconds. The design is already proven on an earlier electric bike I built.

Hub motors aren't powerful enough for the terrain here and they have serious problems with hill climbing. I have 13% grades up to several kilometres long to climb which is why it is a hybrid to assist the electrics. Also, using hub motors on a trike produces asymmetrical thrust which makes the vehicle hard to steer unless both motors are running at the same power level all the time. If one should fail it can create a dangerous situation.

I have no intention of producing this machine for sale, it is for my own use only. The picture is just a decorative setting to show the overall design. It falls in the legal class of Limited Speed Motorcycle so it may not have a top speed in excess of about 30 mph. The trike is easily capable of much higher speed except it must be geared down considerably to handle the hills. I use a magnetic torque converter of my own design that also acts as a clutch for the gasoline engine. Both the electric and the gas can operate together or either one can be used alone. The gas engine can also charge the batteries with a custom built in alternator that I designed.

I don't like DC brushless motors for this application although I do have experience with them. They are much less rugged than a brush motor, especially in overload conditions. I am using lead/acid valve regulated fiberglass mat batteries because they can handle full discharges and have very low leakage rates. They will keep a full charge all winter which means I don't have to worry about them freezing.

I am curious about the N 52 magnets in your motor. What is their maximum temperature rating?

MuellerNick
06-25-2010, 03:22 AM
I think, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ulWq80msaA) tells it all. This vehicle is a complete failure in offroad.
The designer never ever has riden an offroad motorcycle. He does not know where the handlebar has to be, where the driver's COG has to be and why offroad bikes do have long and narrow saddles.
Using a BMW Enduro as reference is a bad joke. That fat chick is no Enduro at all and it never will be one. Yes, I also rode Jutta Kleinschmidt's Paris Dakar BMW. She insisted that I drive it. Yes, your's is much lighter, but the geometry is even worse.



When the bike is at its shortest, the weight is rearward so it is easier to pop over logs etc.


This only shows that you never tried to climb over a log nor did the one who came up with that "concept". You will get a lot of back injuries. Maybe add a sissi-bar?

I would like to wish you success, but I can't because a lot of money will be wasted alongside.


Nick

oldtiffie
06-25-2010, 03:25 AM
Stick with it Tony. You are doing OK.

No matter how good or expensive your concept is, it pales into insignificance alongside the preciousness of some egos and vanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity

I, for one, am an interested observer here.

John Stevenson
06-25-2010, 03:55 AM
I am still having a hard time getting to grips with all the stated performance levels whist not actually seeing even a test machine.

It's Ok saying it will go X miles on one charge at Y mph but has it actually done that.

Stated battery life of 15 years is bunkum as you haven't had one for 15 years, in fact do the batteries exist and by that I mean in your hands ?

So far all I have seen is smoke and mirrors, you are digging yourself into a large hole just for the sake of showing actual proof.

Everyone recognises that you need development, it doesn't come off a drawing board finished.

One Youtube video of even the most roughest throw together doing something approaching what is in the specs will have more positive spin than all the vapourware negative spin we are seeing here.

Without concept of proof this will spiral all over the web to become another perpetual motion machine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting the design down but the presentation of it.

.

MuellerNick
06-25-2010, 04:07 AM
Here offroad means in the dirt.

What is your definition?

The same as yours. But still the Norton would make a better dirt bike than the Wallace-bike.


Nick

John Stevenson
06-25-2010, 04:44 AM
than the Wallace-bike.


Nick

FAME at last - that moniker is going to stick BIG TIME. :D ;)

.

aboard_epsilon
06-25-2010, 07:54 AM
if its so up to date and modern ..why does it have a chain ..

Could it be that the chain is the only way you can get around alinement problems happening during the shape changing ..
which also means that the chain is going to be under a lot of stress with pulling and stretching ..

The chains drive sprocket should be on the exact pivot point of the of the rear wheels spindle .......then the chain will last for high miles .

All the best.markj

gnm109
06-25-2010, 08:57 AM
40!
You must either be single
or have saint for a wife !


Well, she bought into the program since our first date was on a 1964 Honda 305 Super Hawk. You might say that we got off to an "electric start".

From time to time, she wll still take a ride in the Harley sidecar rig. She knows I am unrepentant with regard to bikes.

Evan
06-25-2010, 09:39 AM
Without any transmission the electric "Panther" will be useless for hill climbing. Electric motors have a fairly narrow sweet spot for maximum efficiency just like a gasoline engine. That spot is around 1/2 the unloaded rpm at full voltage. If the motor is loaded down so that it drops much below that range the current skyrockets and the power output drops.

EVguru
06-25-2010, 10:30 AM
I have to dissagree with you Evan. A correctly designed electric drive system can have a very wide speed/torque range. The bike that won the TTXGP last year used a single ratio for speeds up to about 115mph. They could have used a 2:1 two speed transmission, but in fact there was little weight difference in simply doubling up on the drive motors for twice the torque.

The performance curves are at the AGNI motors website; http://agnimotors.com/95_Series_Performance_Graphs.pdf You'll notice there's not much change in rpm from zero to full load.

Even with an old series wound traction motor, I've acheived rated torque from 0-7000rpm, but then we were running a 72 volt (nameplate rating) motor from a 288 volt battery pack.

Kokam Lithium cells (Manganese-Cobalt) have just about the best ENERGY density available at the moment, close on 180 Watt/hr per Kg. The quoted 28Kw/hr battery would weigh 155Kg, not including packaging, interconnects, etc. With the more commonly used Ferro-Phosphate cells at around 120 Watt/hr per Kg, it would be more like 230Kg. A BMW 2006 GS1200 is quoted at 199Kg and they're not exactly gazelle like to ride.

Evan
06-25-2010, 10:40 AM
Not the same thing Paul. You are talking about torque, I am talking about efficiency. Power is torque times rpm so even though an electric motor can produce high torque over nearly zero rpm to 50% rpm it does not produce high power over that entire range and the lower the rpm the lower the power output and the higher the current for a particular value of torque.

If you want your batteries to last you must consider efficiency.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 11:22 AM
if its so up to date and modern ..why does it have a chain ..

Could it be that the chain is the only way you can get around alinement problems happening during the shape changing ..
which also means that the chain is going to be under a lot of stress with pulling and stretching ..

The chains drive sprocket should be on the exact pivot point of the of the rear wheels spindle .......then the chain will last for high miles .

All the best.markj

For the Final Drive, we had 3 options, chain, belt or shaft.

Most militaries wanted a shaft.

We could not use a belt because off-road a belt does not work.
If a pebble gets between the belt and pulley you have a problem.

We are working on a shaft, but it loses 15% of the bikes power
is heavy and shafts display odd harmonics
that requires a lot of testing before we are comfortable offering it.

A nickel O-Ring X-Chain
lasts about 15 times longer than a ordinary chain
and a spare is easy to carry.
There is no power loss either.

After I estimate about 3 years,
we shall offer an add-on shaft conversion.
Still don't recommend it though.

The chain has no tension idler
because the chain does not change tension as he suspension moves.

The output from the tranny is exactly at the front pivot of the swing-arms and the rear sprocket is, of course, at the center of the rear wheel
which is the rear pivot of the swing-arms.
That way there is no back-lash or slapping of the chain.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 11:26 AM
Without any transmission the electric "Panther" will be useless for hill climbing. Electric motors have a fairly narrow sweet spot for maximum efficiency just like a gasoline engine. That spot is around 1/2 the unloaded rpm at full voltage. If the motor is loaded down so that it drops much below that range the current skyrockets and the power output drops.


3/1 ratio between rear sprocket and output sprocket.

Torque curve is flat.

John Stevenson
06-25-2010, 11:27 AM
Evan,
Paul must hve something here because I watched that race.
37 and 3/4 miles at high speed, as Paul says up to 115 mph and they have to climb the mountain which is decent mountain.

At no point in that race if you had been watching with the sound down you would have known these were electric bikes.

Just short of the finish line is Governors Bridge which is no longer part of the main road but it called into play for the TT.
It's basically a bus stop type layby, got to be the slowest part of the circuit, many go round with their foot down at this point [ historical fact, I used to go round on my arse ! ]

From there it's a flat out mad dash to the line. These bikes were coming out of there after 37 miles and pulling wheelies with the acceleration to the line.
Does that show flat batteries?

If they could have got better with transmissions wouldn't you have though so ?

Evan
06-25-2010, 11:34 AM
These are the batteries I would like to use, the Super Charge Ion Battery (SCIB) from Toshiba. Good for 6000 full discharge cycles and full recharge in as little as 10 minutes. Also good to -30C.

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 11:35 AM
I am still having a hard time getting to grips with all the stated performance levels whist not actually seeing even a test machine.

It's Ok saying it will go X miles on one charge at Y mph but has it actually done that.

Stated battery life of 15 years is bunkum as you haven't had one for 15 years, in fact do the batteries exist and by that I mean in your hands ?

So far all I have seen is smoke and mirrors, you are digging yourself into a large hole just for the sake of showing actual proof.

Everyone recognises that you need development, it doesn't come off a drawing board finished.

One Youtube video of even the most roughest throw together doing something approaching what is in the specs will have more positive spin than all the vapourware negative spin we are seeing here.

Without concept of proof this will spiral all over the web to become another perpetual motion machine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting the design down but the presentation of it.

.

The expected life is what the experts are telling us based on years of knowledge and the chemical and physical results of their tests.
It takes into account the weight of the bike, front profile in the wind, Wheel resistance.

Claiming a battery is expected to last for 15 years
without having tested it for 15 years
is like saying a bridge will last for 100 years
without having waited the 100 years.

This is is totally reasonable John.
This is part of what engineers do.

Please don't imagine any real power in any negative comments made here.
I appreciate them only because there are a lot of people out there
who don't have the background to understand
and so (rudeness aside) such questions naturally pop up
and need to be addressed.

I will repeat that until we are production and delivery ready,
we shall not be making bikes available for magazine testing.
When people see it, they need to be able to buy it
otherwise they see a bike being ridden and tested and they can't have it.
That would cause a whole new level of frustration
that we don't need to deal with.

Seeing a bike and reading about the egineering and design detail is fun
but even that causes some to be frustrated .... i.e. you.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 11:37 AM
These are the batteries I would like to use, the Super Charge Ion Battery (SCIB) from Toshiba. Good for 6000 full discharge cycles and full recharge in as little as 10 minutes. Also good to -30C.

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821


if Toshi claims to charge in 10 minutes
they are using a hell of a lot of amps (way more than house current)
and frankly I understand the electro-chemistry involved
and they are ruining the life of the battery if they do it.

Evan
06-25-2010, 11:39 AM
Paul must hve something here because I watched that race.
37 and 3/4 miles at high speed, as Paul says up to 115 mph and they have to climb the mountain which is decent mountain.


It is very simple physics John. If you want to maximize range you need some sort of torque conversion even with an electric motor. We discuss this all the time here as it relates to drive motors on machines and the general opinion, including yours, is that you need to step down the rpm to obtain full torque at low rpm without smoking the motor.

They may not have flat batteries at the end which just shows that they aren't concerned about efficiency.

Evan
06-25-2010, 11:41 AM
if Toshi claims to charge in 10 minutes
they are using a hell of a lot of amps (way more than house current)
and frankly I understand the electro-chemistry involved
and they are ruining the life of the battery if they do it.


Why not talk to a Toshiba rep and ask them? I thought you did your research on the available batteries? These were announced 3 years ago and have been in the news since.

This is beginning to remind me of the cryogenic treatment thread. I have work to do on my trike.

S_J_H
06-25-2010, 01:24 PM
Well I did take the time to read over the Panther bike website.
The Panther will be a head turner, if nothing else because of the radical design. I have a feeling it's going to be a love it or hate it kind of thing for the Panther.
At first I did not like the design much. But after looking at the hi-res pics I now like it. It's pretty darned slick!
The base price for the Panther at around $40,000 puts it next to some other high end bikes like the awesome Bimota Tesi-
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/misc/bimotatesi.jpg
Of course I understand the Panther is not a race or track type of bike but that's the type of quality one would expect for that kind of money.
I'm not sure exactly who this bike will be marketed to though. The average guy won't be able to afford one. And forget the CUB with the small engine for the men. You may want to rethink the engine options for the Cub.
There are some very lofty claims made on your website such as -
"The finest made motorcycle in the world".
Really need to see some pics of a real bike. Is there a link?

Guys, you can get a better idea of the Panther bike if you visit the "design a bike section" on the website, there you can see all of the options for the bike and there are many.
http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/byob_(Panther)/byob_prot.php (http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/byob_(Panther)/byob_prot.php)

I have always loved bikes. I was riding at 13 years old racing junior motocross. EEK, that was 36 years ago.
I like all of the older bikes now. I'm currently having great fun with my 1978 Kawasaki KZ650 project bike. I am turbocharging it as well as doing many other mods. I of course am doing all of the work including the paint. Welded up the turbo header, machined a carb plenum box and many other custom machined parts etc..
I found this old girl from a buddy of my sons with only 7500 miles on it. Paid a grand for it and nar a single spot of rust which is amazing for a 32 year old bike with mild steel frame.
This ol' Kawi will be pumping out around 125hp or so and will be a total blast to ride.
Yeeehawwww!
Here she is when I bought it last year-

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/kz650sr005.jpg
And this is it right now-
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/IMG_2202.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/IMG_2203.jpg

Well good luck with the Panther bike!
Steve

Evan
06-25-2010, 03:10 PM
Steve,

The list of options is just that, a list of options. There are no options at this time, not even the option to buy and take delivery of the bike. There is a world of difference between advertising for a planned product and the reality of building and selling it. Once that begins other realities quickly become apparent. For instance, stainless steel exposed to the elements turns ugly in a hurry, especially in cities. Delorean found that out the hard way. It is about the highest maintenance finish one can think of to use on a vehicle. It also makes no sense from a weight standpoint, especially for an electric vehicle. Light alloys beat steel every time which is why they don't build aircraft from steel.

Right now it is a concept, nothing more.

RB211
06-25-2010, 03:40 PM
Very simple, government contract = MILLIONS$$$$

You put up a big enough eye candy show, spit out a bunch of claims, and hope to get a contract or at least further interest, money is sent your way, THEN you build the bike. Cost next to nothing to pay a kid who is good with Solid Works or 3ds MAX, and make phone calls to the "Experts" to gather claims for your pony show.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 04:11 PM
Why not talk to a Toshiba rep and ask them? I thought you did your research on the available batteries? These were announced 3 years ago and have been in the news since.

This is beginning to remind me of the cryogenic treatment thread. I have work to do on my trike.

There are lots of people out there claiming great batteries.
Very few actually are.
If the Toshi was the best, we and NASA would have been using them.

For example the Lithium Sulphide batteries have the highest energy density.
They just tend to blow up a lot so are used only in unmanned vehicles.
There is always some downside the manufacturer fails to mention.
I go with the experts and ignore the marketing folks.

On the Cryo comment,
years ago there were those who thought it mattered and those who did not.
It was noticed, for example, that brass instruments sounded better if treated.
The Electron Microscope images show that as the metal is super-cooled,
and the molecules and atoms lose their energy,
they try to position themselves in more comfortable lower energy states.
These states tend to be a more crystallin matrix.

It helps sometimes to "pump it a bit" going warmer and then cooling it again
but it tends to line up and repair micro-fractures and other imperfections in the process.
Most NASCAR and other racing circuits use it a lot.
It is used in the making of weapons systems and military aircraft as wel
l.
Science has discovered the advantage and the reasons,
although there are always some "Old-School" types
that look at metal in a more Macro fashion
and see Cryo treating as voodoo. W
hen you think about it, it is like not believing in annealing.

John Stevenson
06-25-2010, 04:14 PM
On the Cryo comment,
years ago there were those who thought it mattered and those who did not.
It was noticed, for example, that brass instruments sounded better if treated.
The Electron Microscope images show that as the metal is super-cooled,
and the molecules and atoms lose their energy,
they try to position themselves in more comfortable lower energy states.
These states tend to be a more crystallin matrix.

It helps sometimes to "pump it a bit" going warmer and then cooling it again
but it tends to line up and repair micro-fractures and other imperfections in the process.
Most NASCAR and other racing circuits use it a lot.
It is used in the making of weapons systems and military aircraft as wel
l.
Science has discovered the advantage and the reasons,
although there are always some "Old-School" types
that look at metal in a more Macro fashion
and see Cryo treating as voodoo. W
hen you think about it, it is like not believing in annealing.

OH MY GOD, RUN DON'T WALK......................

.

Evan
06-25-2010, 04:23 PM
Well, that nails it down pretty well. I have better things to do that are more interesting. Maybe something like passing another kidney stone fragment....

S_J_H
06-25-2010, 04:29 PM
Steve,

The list of options is just that, a list of options. There are no options at this time, not even the option to buy and take delivery of the bike. There is a world of difference between advertising for a planned product and the reality of building and selling it. Once that begins other realities quickly become apparent. For instance, stainless steel exposed to the elements turns ugly in a hurry, especially in cities. Delorean found that out the hard way. It is about the highest maintenance finish one can think of to use on a vehicle. It also makes no sense from a weight standpoint, especially for an electric vehicle. Light alloys beat steel every time which is why they don't build aircraft from steel.

Right now it is a concept, nothing more.

Hmmm.. The website says they are taking pre-orders with a 6-7 month wait.
I just assumed they were beyond the concept point with sentences like "the finest made motorcycle in the world" .

I have watched quietly several times over the years when a new company promised the sky and guys put down their cash to pre order and in the end got taken.

"Incon turbo" comes to mind with their twin turbo system for the LS1 f-bodys back around 1999-2000.
Then there was the " CNC bridge"s fiasco over at CNCzone.com.

Incon turbo did such a great build up of hype they even got 100 guys to shell out $2000.00 each to fund the companys startup costs to produce the kit. I was just amazed so many guys went along with that.

I am not saying the Panther bike company would do this, but they should be aware that many people are going to be very leery of them with all these claims and no real bikes shown and tested anywhere.

Yes, I did think using stainless was an odd material for a motorcycles frame. I have personally not had any experience with stainless as the frame of any type of vehicle though.

Most high perf bikes today are either built with chromoly steel trellis frames or massive aluminum twin spar designs.

Motorcycles elicit very strong emotions from their owners.
I take one look at the Norton 961 and I think, man I would love to own and ride that!
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/misc/norton961.jpg
Or a bad ass Yamaho V-max- http://www.visordown.com/news/images/yamaha-vmax.jpg

I don't know that people will think that way about the Panther even though it is pretty slick in some ways.

Well time for me to go work on my old school Kawasaki now..
Steve

moe1942
06-25-2010, 04:31 PM
Well I have two Harley Road Kings and I don't mind saying I like the frame geometry on this bike rendition. Looks like the whole frame is a shock absorber. Having put many thousand miles on bikes since the late fifties that would sell me alone..

And the BSA "Thumper" single cylinder pushrod engine was one of the better English bikes. Lucas sucks big time.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 04:48 PM
OH MY GOD, RUN DON'T WALK......................

.


I assume you are one of those throwbacks ?

I am a PhD Physicist from MIT
and I will tell you straight out
that I have seen the difference
and serious educated scientists are all in agreement
so perhaps you should run, not walk .... to school.

Sorry, that did sound rude,
but frankly sometimes it is hard to be patient.
Perhaps it s why I don't teach.

Evan
06-25-2010, 04:54 PM
PHD physicists have been very wrong before. The names Ponds and Fleischman come immediately to mind.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 05:08 PM
Well I have two Harley Road Kings and I don't mind saying I like the frame geometry on this bike rendition. Looks like the whole frame is a shock absorber. Having put many thousand miles on bikes since the late fifties that would sell me alone..

And the BSA "Thumper" single cylinder pushrod engine was one of the better English bikes. Lucas sucks big time.

It is interesting how, when the OHC became popular,
people assumed they were better.

Many said they produced better power,
yet the Corvette has been beating the Ferrari
.... not that I like Corvette or Fiat's Ferrari
but pushrod motors hold up under stress better
and over-all last longer.

As an engine, they are forgiving and are sturdy as hell.
This bike was all about rugged.
The pushrod speaks to that.

On the electrical ... Mmm OK trying to be polite and understanding here.
Every tribe has its strengths and weaknesses
So apparently Electrical Engineering is not such a popular major
at English Universities.

Lucas being a mess is understandable. **** happens.
What isn't understandable is that they stuck with it so long.
I would have swept the slate lean and hired some Germans and Japs.
(Perhaps kept them in the cellar so as not to embarrass the neighbors)

So the tribe that gave us Rollers, Bentley and Triumph, Aston, Norton and Austin Healey
also gave us Vauxhall and Lucas, pancreas pie and warm beer.
Go figure.

I love the taste of English women
and I love English cars and bikes
in spite of the constant weekend list in the glovebox.

All the rest can be forgiven.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 05:13 PM
That looks like a pecker chomping frame to me. :eek:

Does the engine hang from the gas tank?

If you are that well gifted
I suppose I should salute.

Tony Botello
06-25-2010, 05:17 PM
I still think it was designed by Wallace and Grommet................



.


There will be several body styles over the years
so if organic curves are not your thing, maybe edges are ?


http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Picture1.jpg

Evan
06-25-2010, 06:03 PM
I am a PhD Physicist from MIT
and I will tell you straight out
that I have seen the difference
and serious educated scientists are all in agreement
so perhaps you should run, not walk .... to school.


Mind providing a link or two to papers and/or your dissertation? MIT seems to have lost any record of you attending there.

The Artful Bodger
06-25-2010, 06:10 PM
Mind providing a link or two to papers and/or your dissertation? MIT seems to have lost any record of you attending there.

Give it a rest already please Evan.:)

John Stevenson
06-25-2010, 06:22 PM
Mind providing a link or two to papers and/or your dissertation? MIT seems to have lost any record of you attending there.

Did you check under Wallace or Grommet ?

.

Evan
06-25-2010, 07:33 PM
I don't think so. I don't like being scammed.

The server for the parent web page is located in Victoria, British Columbia. The "company" is IDS Group or IDS Research. The person we are chatting with is most likely Erik Brinkman. The IDS group main page is operating on the domain name www.ericbrinkman.com




He has posted on CNC Zone claiming credit for a Sandia National Labs invention. His profile lists his location as British columbia. The company name IDS-Research is not registered in BC nor can it be since it would conflict with The UBC Institute of Development Studies.

He also appears to post under the name of Dr. Albert Binder as which he proclaims that


I seems too obvious that whoever wrote this article has a very limited understanding. First I take issue with the opinion that the bike is ugly.
I think it is a piece of art worthy of a museum. The writer takes issue with the steering unit and the seat. When one reads on about the double-wishbone suspension on both ends and the 8 inches of suspension travel, the steering appearance becomes all too understandable, It can look no other way. As for the seat, when the bike ShapeShifts it needs to have a seat that fits under all road and off-road conditions. The shape of the human body and the need to balance the comfort of a saddle and the off-road need to straddle determines the seat.

Before I ordered my Turbo Hemi with VVT, I looked into the matter very carefully. This bike is designed with military applications in mind and will serve in several militaries around the world. It was customer demand that lead the company to offer a civilian version. The ballistic grade bodywork and SuperAlloy 100% rust-free construction speaks to that.

-----------------------------------

Erik Brinkman is well known in my MIT circles as one of the best designers the world has ever produced. Some of his work is in the Smithsonian. He has been in Business Week, the cover of American Machinist and is in College Textbooks. He spent 9 years on this bike. It opens up a new segment in the industry and moves it forward to a degree that nobody else ever imagined.

http://www.thebikergene.com/custom-bikes/variable-geometry-r-bike-shape-shifts-to-adapt-to-riding-conditions/

Interestingly, MIT has no record of Eric Brinkman either.


Does this sound familiar too?
Posting as Erik Brinkman:


First, I would like to assure "Torque1st"
that he can be confident that nothing coming out of Sandia Atomic Labs, including the Rolamite .... is "BS".
If you go to Wikipedia you can see some detail on the subject.

The issues with the Rolamite are about people's expectations. People do not expect that motion can have no slipping, sliding or rubbing and display ONLY rolling friction. It seems very counter-intuitive and thus easy to dismiss.

Rolamite technology is in fact in use. Because of its extreme reliability it is used your car's airbags as the inertia trigger mechanism. It was originally used as a safety for the trigger in the H-Bomb. It is still being used in that application.

The limitations were that the mechanism was linear only.
Sandia spent a great deal of effort in making the motion rotary because most all mechanical mechanisms are rotary. They were unable to make that breakthrough.

That breakthrough was made about ten years ago by IDS-Research.

link: http://www.erikbrinkman.com/scroller/video.html

On the left side of the page there is a link to the ScrollerWheel REPORT.
It is very extensive and detailed and should be read before application.
If you want advice on applying the technology, feel free to contact me.
---------------------------------------------
The applications that I am aware of are Military and I cannot speak of the details of such matters, but I would suggest that you read the ScrollerWheel Report after which we can talk about your application. If your understanding is such that your application is feasible, I shall be pleased to help you reach your goal.
------

Your assertion that some of what comes out of the Sandia Labs is "BS"
is surprising. I do not mean to offend, but I find it quite unlikely.

You see, developments go through an exhaustive peer review process,
so what is released is extensively reviewed by highly qualified minds.
Every possible question and/or objection is addressed.
The finding from the lab are thus supported by the scientific community.

It is hard to imagine that your judgement that some releases are "BS"
is likely to be in any way more valid than the community as a whole.
Could it be that you instead dismissed what you did not understand ?


http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64094


Incidentally, there is a phone number for an E. Brinkman in British Columbia.

The Artful Bodger
06-25-2010, 07:52 PM
Evan, I guess you are feeling pretty smug around about now.:)

Evan
06-25-2010, 08:05 PM
Smug isn't in my skill set. I could be wrong but the chances are against it.

oldtiffie
06-25-2010, 11:03 PM
An interesting turn of events here.

Seems like you have done some good detective work Evan.

I tried that link you posted - very interesting:
http://www.erikbrinkman.com/rbike/Home.html

I will be interested to see how it all turns out.

Michael Edwards
06-25-2010, 11:20 PM
An interesting turn of events here.

Seems like you have done some good detective work Evan.

I tried that link you posted - very interesting:
http://www.erikbrinkman.com/rbike/Home.html

I will be interested to see how it all turns out.

You must have missed my link in post #43. ;)

ME

dp
06-25-2010, 11:39 PM
Well I have two Harley Road Kings and I don't mind saying I like the frame geometry on this bike rendition.

Until recently the H-D Road King was a crappy bike. The larger axles and better bungie system on the swing arm are much improved, but when the first twin-cam's cam out they were as likely to toss you off as get you home. Hence all the after-market hardware. Mine's tossed me off just once.

dp
06-25-2010, 11:40 PM
Sorry, that did sound rude,
but frankly sometimes it is hard to be patient.
Perhaps it s why I don't teach.

Any clue what kept you from learning?

oldtiffie
06-26-2010, 12:11 AM
You must have missed my link in post #43. ;)

ME

Here is post #43:




Originally Posted by John Stevenson
We have seen renderings and 3D visualisations.
How many actual bikes are there ? and why don't we get to see actual bikes and not 3D renderings ?


From the Kneeslider

The bike only exists in the computer at the moment while they look for investors. According to the web site they plan to produce the first bikes in March of 2008.

We will be taking pre-orders probably by the end of the month, so you won’t have too long to wait.


For the rest of the story go to the Kneeslider

Kneeslider (http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/02/05/r-bike-shape-shifting-motorcycle/)

Don't hold your breath John. You will be an advocate of BP's before you see actual test data from a respectable motorcycle magazine that lives up to the hype. IMO, this is a scam. Take a stock CRF450, add lights and supermoto tires and it would outperform the Panther on the dirt or the road without shape shifting or stopping and waiting for the support vehichle to stop by with your change of tires. And you wouldn't be embarrased to be seen on it.
Tony, I am, like you, trying to be civil. But it is difficult to do in the face of your wild claims, like the range of the electric bike, with no bike to back it up.

ME

My apologies Michael - I did read it but didn't go back that far - as I should have - before I posted.

Evan
06-26-2010, 12:48 AM
That is why I asked about the electric bike. Everyone and his dog can be an expert on ICE bikes but electric bikes just barely exist. I have been experimenting with them for about three years now and have accumulated considerable experience the hard way, by doing it. I have burned up motors both brushed and brushless, burned out controllers, killed batteries and broken parts as I work my way through what actually works and what doesn't.

One thing in particular that I have discovered is that you can run calculations till the sun goes out but until the rubber hits the road you do not know what the performance will be or where the weaknesses lie. The only things that you can really count on is that the performance will be less than you thought and you cannot afford any extra weight.

My calculations on this imaginary electric bike show that it would just barely make it to town and back. That is about a 40 km round trip with a total altitude gain both ways of about 3000 feet. It also wouldn't be able to maintain the 80km speed limit up the steeper parts.

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 05:46 AM
My calculations on this imaginary electric bike show that it would just barely make it to town and back. That is about a 40 km round trip with a total altitude gain both ways of about 3000 feet. It also wouldn't be able to maintain the 80km speed limit up the steeper parts.

Seriously why is that Evan?
I must admit I haven't looked at the specs and compared them to any of the bikes that ran in this years TT but all those would do your town trip fine.

So what's lacking between know and proven technology as in the TT bikes and this vaporware machine ?

Peter N
06-26-2010, 06:11 AM
So what's lacking between known and proven technology as in the TT bikes and this vaporware machine ?

Wheels, Frame, Engine, Buyers.....:D

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 06:28 AM
Wheels, Frame, Engine, Buyers.....:D

Old cynic.................

.

Evan
06-26-2010, 07:55 AM
What is lacking is horspower to weight ratio. Put 34 hp max in and you get at best 28 out. At 80k and a gain of 1000 feet in one minute you need to not only overcome rolling resistance and form drag but you are needing 20 hp just to hoist it up that hill.

The reals clues are two. The stated use of neodymium magnets and the lack of a liquid cooling radiator. Neo magnets have a very low curie temperature at which they suffer unreversible damage. Well before that they lose a lot of strength which results in a runaway vicious circle that heats them faster as the controller tries to maintain speed. The only way to keep them cool enough for the performance required in a 28 kilowatt motor that will fit in a motorcycle is by using a liquid cooled motor.

Or, you can use samarium cobalt magnets which have a much higher curie temperature which is without doubt what the TT racers used in their motors.

BTW, we should keep an eye on the website and see how long it takes for a radiator to appear on the renderings.

Seastar
06-26-2010, 09:54 AM
Good go Evan!
Go get em ----
Bill

gnm109
06-26-2010, 09:56 AM
Wheels, Frame, Engine, Buyers.....:D


You make a good point and let's focus on the last element: Buyers.

I've learned in my association with motorcycles, motorcycle dealers, owners, makers of accessories and so on, that motorcyclists are very slow to change their tastes.

A good example of this is Harley-Davidson. More than 70 years after the introduction of their first pushrod OHV engine, ('36 EL) they are still building essentially the same motorcycle with a few upgrades. I love mine but I don't tell anyone how modern it is.

Even the Japanese clones of HD, make them along the same pattern - some of them with pushrod OHV engines and all of them with that "Harley Look".

Then there are the Sportbikes. They are different from Harleys, of course, but for the most part they all look quite similar to one another. I subscribe to Cycle World Magazine which has now gone all British and European Sportbike since theie recent editor change. They have 4,5 and 10 bike "comparos" and they all look alike - to me, anyway.

I get the feeling that motorcyclists want change, as long as their new bike looks the same as those of others. Of course, they will make minor changes - some chrome here, different bars and seats there, but most of them are within the guidelines of what sells.

Then, on top of that, there are the obvious problems inherent to building any new vehicle, car or Bike, within a startup company or even as a subsidiary. Those problems include, but are not limited to staffing, financing, overhead and marketing.

Some obvious examples from history:

Tucker car
Bricklin car
Indian 2
Indian 3
Indian 4
Excelsior-Henderson
Vincent 2
Norton 2
Buell

And numerous others, I can't remember or never heard about (due to poor marketing, no doubt).

So, my take on this new Cyber-machine is that, it ain't gona sell 'cause it's different. The worst part is that they are looking for investors. Ask the Governor of Minnesota and the former Excelsion-Henderson and Indian 2 Employees (Morgan Hill. CA) if they would like to invest in a Cyber-bike.

Oh yeah, electric? No thanks, Can't hear them. :)

Abner
06-26-2010, 10:33 AM
The part I can't get past is the multifunction practicality.
I just happened to be reading "Machine Shop Trade Secrets" last night about having designated machines for a specific use. I keep going back to shopsmiths. Lathe, sander, drill press, table saw, etc etc.

Shape shifting "on the fly" is what(?) interesting, but what about the tires? Do the "knobbies" come out of the highway tires at the same time you switch the frame from highway to off road. This is about moving on different kinds of terrain right? I think you are missing the biggest part of the whole deal - traction. Are you suggesting when we get at the end of the pavement we switch tires to go over logs? There is no way this is remotely practical for the multi-purpose uses you are proposing.

This looks to me like the movie "transformers". Nice techno glitz, but we have been down the multipurpose road before, with a lot of machines, regardless of batteries, magnets, or composite materials.

The only "multipurpose" machine that has stood the test of time is the tractor, and that is because of attachments not shape shifting.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:55 AM
Steve,

The list of options is just that, a list of options. There are no options at this time, and take delivery of the bike. There is a world of difference between advertising for a planned product and the reality of building and selling it. Once that begins other realities quickly become apparent. For instance,. Delorean found that out the hard way. It is about the highest maintenance finish one can think of to use on a vehicle. It also, especially for an electric vehicle. which is why they don't build aircraft from steel.

Right now it is a concept, nothing more.

Since you are the one member of this forum that seems to make the most declarations
and is yet shown to be the most consistently wrong,
maybe it would serve you better if you stated your thoughts in the form of a question
so that you get your point across without resorting to sophomoric declarations
that make you look like a newbie.

I am not tying to be insensitive here,
I just feel that since it is obvious that you have the least knowledge of the respondents,
that you in particular may want to refrain from declarations.


"not even the option to buy"

If you go to the "Design a Bike" page you can order a bike,
put down a 5% deposit which is placed in an escrow account
and is either transferrable or completely refundable at the purchasers option.

"stainless steel exposed to the elements turns ugly in a hurry, especially in cities"


Ok, this is just silly.
I suggest you go to your local Marina and speak to sailors
about the strength and resistance to the elements
since sailboats are full of stainless steel parts that take huge loads
nd are exposed to extremely corrosive conditions.


"makes no sense from a weight standpoint"
Light alloys beat steel every time

I shall simple ask that you think about a Materials 101 course.
As a starter you may also want to read the section
titled "the feel of steel" in the Frame Booklet.

Evan
06-26-2010, 11:01 AM
The first rule of scamming is NEVER admit to the scam.

I can have your web page shut down. I haven't because I don't think this is really an active scam but more an indication of a detachment from reality. If you want to keep dreaming in public then you should post a disclaimer on your pages. I will be keeping an eye on it. I have shut down real scammers numerous times in the past. It's a hobby of mine.

BTW, I will not respond to your silly rebutals as they are far too easy to refute. We really do have many people on this board that are highly qualified in any discipline you care to name. We even have some real rocket scientists. :)

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:07 AM
I don't think so. I don't like being scammed.

The server for the parent web page is located in Victoria, British Columbia. The "company" is IDS Group or IDS Research. The person we are chatting with is most likely Erik Brinkman. The IDS group main page is operating on the domain name www.ericbrinkman.com




He has posted on CNC Zone claiming credit for a Sandia National Labs invention. His profile lists his location as British columbia. The company name IDS-Research is not registered in BC nor can it be since it would conflict with The UBC Institute of Development Studies.

He also appears to post under the name of Dr. Albert Binder as which he proclaims that

Interestingly, MIT has no record of Eric Brinkman either.


Does this sound familiar too?
Posting as Erik Brinkman:


Incidentally, there is a phone number for an E. Brinkman in British Columbia.


Erik Brinkman is not the kind of person who would spend the patient time doing this with you.

If you are interested in the Sandia history of the Rolamite, you can easily look that up. Credit was never claimed for Don Wilke's Sandia Invention but for making the Rolamite rotary, which is a fact that has been covered in many publications
including the cover of American Machinist.
American Machinist, I think you will agree is the bible of Machining.

It is the only time in that magazine's history
that more than a third of the cover was given to any one item
and it was over 90% of the cover. That cover can be seen on the WebSite.

http//www.scrollermechanics.com/Media.html


Erik Brinkman is rarely in British Columbia, BTW.
There is some initial R&D that does take place there.

The WebSite is mirrored in several cities.

IF IDS were registered in BC it would not be in conflict with anyone.
IDS also often stands for 'Industrial Design".
Still no legal conflict.

Nobody here has any idea who this Albert Binder you mention is.

You mention an Eric brinkman in BC with a phone number.
I looked it up and called it.
He writes plays children's stories.

What is apparent from your may responses is that you are very ignorant
and yet wish to be thought of as knowing what you are talking about.

I have consistently had to correct every "fact" that you have stated
in your many declarations
even the stupidest assertions about something as simple as stainless steel.

Evan
06-26-2010, 11:10 AM
Hmm, perhaps it is a multiple personality disorder?

This btw is a last ditch effort to try and sow seeds of doubt in the minds of the other viewers of this thread.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:11 AM
That is why I asked about the electric bike. Everyone and his dog can be an expert on ICE bikes but electric bikes just barely exist. I have been experimenting with them for about three years now and have accumulated considerable experience the hard way, by doing it. I have burned up motors both brushed and brushless, burned out controllers, killed batteries and broken parts as I work my way through what actually works and what doesn't.

One thing in particular that I have discovered is that you can run calculations till the sun goes out but until the rubber hits the road you do not know what the performance will be or where the weaknesses lie. The only things that you can really count on is that the performance will be less than you thought and you cannot afford any extra weight.

My calculations on this imaginary electric bike show that it would just barely make it to town and back. That is about a 40 km round trip with a total altitude gain both ways of about 3000 feet. It also wouldn't be able to maintain the 80km speed limit up the steeper parts.

Evan, trust me when I say you know way too little about electric bikes to make any statements. Your admission that you have gone through a lot of motors and circuits attests to the lack of ability and understanding.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:17 AM
What is lacking is horspower to weight ratio. Put 34 hp max in and you get at best 28 out. At 80k and a gain of 1000 feet in one minute you need to not only overcome rolling resistance and form drag but you are needing 20 hp just to hoist it up that hill.

The reals clues are two. The stated use of neodymium magnets and the lack of a liquid cooling radiator. Neo magnets have a very low curie temperature at which they suffer unreversible damage. Well before that they lose a lot of strength which results in a runaway vicious circle that heats them faster as the controller tries to maintain speed. The only way to keep them cool enough for the performance required in a 28 kilowatt motor that will fit in a motorcycle is by using a liquid cooled motor.

Or, you can use samarium cobalt magnets which have a much higher curie temperature which is without doubt what the TT racers used in their motors.

BTW, we should keep an eye on the website and see how long it takes for a radiator to appear on the renderings.

Depending on the motor chosen, the IC version runs from 35 hp to 105 hp.

With the electric in particular keep in mind that HP is about speed
(the bike is governed to 90 mph)
Torque is king and the electric has by definition gobs of that.

Nobody said anything about a 28 kw motor
You are thinking of the 28kwh battery pack in the 480-E model.

Neo magnets are often used in permanent magnet motors
and the most efficient PM motors use them not the old SC magnets
which are not nearly a strong.

(There are two small fans optional on the side of the Diesel s cylinder though)

Evan
06-26-2010, 11:18 AM
In contrast you haven't gone through any which shows a complete lack of a product. I recently burned out a Kollmorgen brushless motor with integral controller because it lacked any sort of overcurrent detection. I suppose they haven't a clue what they are doing either?

You are now trying to flog a dead horse and if you continue I shall be making some inquiries with Baremetal on Monday.


Nobody said anything about a 28 kw motor


You did although I mistyped it. 26 kilowatts is the number.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:32 AM
The first rule of scamming is NEVER admit to the scam.

I can have your web page shut down. I haven't because I don't think this is really an active scam but more an indication of a detachment from reality. If you want to keep dreaming in public then you should post a disclaimer on your pages. I will be keeping an eye on it. I have shut down real scammers numerous times in the past. It's a hobby of mine.

BTW, I will not respond to your silly rebutals as they are far too easy to refute. We really do have many people on this board that are highly qualified in any discipline you care to name. We even have some real rocket scientists. :)

No you poor sick puppy imagine to be able to shut down IDS-Research ?
Interesting that you seem to know about 'scamming".
So far you have claimed to know one thing after anther
and yet every declaration has been refuted.

Now every statement you have made has been shown to be false
and yet you claim to be able to refute. Yes I detect drug use.

I began by addressing a silly comment made about the bike
in the hopes of gleaning any helpful tidbits that may be helpful
but you never know what twisted minds you run across.

Just to let the rest of you know
that I am open for any further discussion with the rest of you
my phone number is Menlo Park 650-488-8365.

My Direct email is Tony.B@PantherMotorcycle.com

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:42 AM
Hmm, perhaps it is a multiple personality disorder?

This btw is a last ditch effort to try and sow seeds of doubt in the minds of the other viewers of this thread.


I just looked at your profile page and went to your website.
I should not have been so insensitive with someone like you.
Now that I have seen your gadgets, I understand.
I thought at first I was speaking to an entirely different sort of person.
I wish you the best..

Abner
06-26-2010, 11:46 AM
You want some helpful tidbits?

Realize you can transform the shape but without dealing with the traction issue you are selling a toy.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 12:44 PM
You make a good point and let's focus on the last element: Buyers.

I've learned in my association with motorcycles, motorcycle dealers, owners, makers of accessories and so on, that motorcyclists are very slow to change their tastes.

A good example of this is Harley-Davidson. More than 70 years after the introduction of their first pushrod OHV engine, ('36 EL) they are still building essentially the same motorcycle with a few upgrades. I love mine but I don't tell anyone how modern it is.

Harley sold 1/3 of all large motorcycles worldwide.
Now they are own 65%
(they claim 40's but they are cramming bikes into dealerships
and referring to production as sales).
They have closed several plants and laid off to many workers to be able to bounce back.

Old guys have often bought their last bikes
and the idea that quality is heavy metal, thick paint and chrome
is part of the past.

You are right that many bike riders,
the old ones in particular are slow to change,
but we are entering a new economy.
The US Dollar is worth 67 cents
and the Euro will collapse (with France leading the way).
The Chinese are dealing with a collapse
in both their stock market and heir housing market.

The new economy is about having fewer things
made better that can be serviced easier and kept longer.
The new brand is not the object, but the experience.
Frankly, it is refreshing.

If you take the crispy plastic styling off most bikes
you see a complex pile of parts
crammed in so tight you can't even get a toothbrush in to clean.
Those days are dying away.

Even the Japanese clones of HD, make them along the same pattern - some of them with pushrod OHV engines and all of them with that "Harley Look".

Then there are the Sportbikes. They are different from Harleys, of course, but for the most part they all look quite similar to one another. I subscribe to Cycle World Magazine which has now gone all British and European Sportbike since theie recent editor change. They have 4,5 and 10 bike "comparos" and they all look alike - to me, anyway.

I get the feeling that motorcyclists want change, as long as their new bike looks the same as those of others. Of course, they will make minor changes - some chrome here, different bars and seats there, but most of them are within the guidelines of what sells.

Then, on top of that, there are the obvious problems inherent to building any new vehicle, car or Bike, within a startup company or even as a subsidiary. Those problems include, but are not limited to staffing, financing, overhead and marketing.

Some obvious examples from history:

Tucker car
Bricklin car
Indian 2
Indian 3
Indian 4
Excelsior-Henderson
Vincent 2
Norton 2
Buell

Indian-2 had leaky tanks and a weak lower end
and the management was more about skimming funds
than delivering a top-notch product.
In addition it begs the question Why ?
Why not just get a Harley ?

Excelsior, like Norton,
thought they were in the motorcycle n business FIRST
rather than in the business of business first.

Erik Buell just plain got screwed by the Harley Board
who in their arrogance think they are the "keepers of the golden flame"
while in fact they sell old man bikes out of the 50's that don't handle
and make most of their money selling clothes.
Go to a Harley gathering and see all the accountants
with their temporary tatoos
because most of the hard core are either dead, drunk or in prison.



And numerous others, I can't remember or never heard about (due to poor marketing, no doubt).

So, my take on this new Cyber-machine is that, it ain't gona sell 'cause it's different. The worst part is that they are looking for investors. Ask the Governor of Minnesota and the former Excelsion-Henderson and Indian 2 Employees (Morgan Hill. CA) if they would like to invest in a Cyber-bike.

Panther is looking for additions funds
because in order to make sure production is steady in what is a seasonal market,
it needs to go global.

Oh yeah, electric? No thanks, Can't hear them. :)

The nice thing about the power-plant hanging under the bike
is that it can hang just about anything.
Panther started with a regular gas engine.
Then it wanted a hi-performance offering
and did not want to go 4-valve t so it went Hemi.
(actually a semi-Hemi)

Militaries wanted a Diesel which is more efficient if turbo-charged,
so it made sense to toss the charger as an option on the Hemi as well.
The engine was certainly strong enough to handle it,
so it was an easy decision.

The Electric was slow in coming and the last to arrive
because of the all the double-talk Panther was getting
from the battery industry.
Panther had to go directly to the labs
and ignore the sales crap from the manufacturers
if it was to get an accurate idea.

Panther could not trust the conflicting info it was getting,
so it brought one of the two inventors of the Lithium on-board.

The electric is not very sexy in that there is no sound,
but many younger riders like it.
The one moving part and the expense of operation is a big plus.

Popularity ?
Web hits have been as high as over 535k
A lot of that is just curiosity so not an accurate gauge of sales,
but it has made a cover already
even though there is no Media Dept yet.
and it does offer a huge break-thru in range
thanks to the new batteries and charging algorithm
as well as a far lighter and more efficient motor.

With the changes taking place in the lab,
we expect electric to be quite popular in about 3-5 years.

Thruthefence
06-26-2010, 12:53 PM
Tony,
With respect;

Until you 'cut metal' you will be viewed as a grifter by those who DO cut metal.

That's us here on this forum.

It's as simple as that.

In high school, my daughter had a couple of guy friends who were wanna be musicians, but were more savvy in web design; they couldn't play a note, but had a huge 'Band' web site, with tour information, discography, t- shirt sales, a "gear" museum with favorite Amps, Guitars, effects boxes, ect, links to "people who like us" (these being 'real' musicians, producers, bands, ect) , musical influences, from rockabilly, to reggae, cool Jazz, blues, and bluegrass. Something for everybody.

And they couldn't name the notes across the neck of a six string.

I think they called themselves "MISHMASH" (with the "S" reversed) the site may even be archived somewhere.

Frankly, this is what your site reminds me of. A machine trying to be all things to all people.

All hat, no Cattle; All sizzle, no steak.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 12:54 PM
You want some helpful tidbits?

Realize you can transform the shape but without dealing with the traction issue you are selling a toy.


I am not sure I understand your reference to traction issues.
Bosch is handling the Traction Control and Anti-Lock for the Brembos.

Torque curves moves lower as the frame shortens
and toward the mid-range as it lengthens.

Wheels pop-off with one nut
so you can put whatever tires on you want
in a minute or so.

The tranny comes with an optional 7 speeds so you have a granny gear
and an over-drive and even an option reverse for deep woods
so I am not seeing any traction issues.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 12:56 PM
In contrast you haven't gone through any which shows a complete lack of a product. I recently burned out a Kollmorgen brushless motor with integral controller because it lacked any sort of overcurrent detection. I suppose they haven't a clue what they are doing either?

You are now trying to flog a dead horse and if you continue I shall be making some inquiries with Baremetal on Monday.



You did although I mistyped it. 26 kilowatts is the number.


No Evan.
The motor is 9 inches by 8 inches and runs quite cool
and nowhere did I state a KW rating on a motor.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 01:04 PM
The part I can't get past is the multifunction practicality.
I just happened to be reading "Machine Shop Trade Secrets" last night about having designated machines for a specific use. I keep going back to shopsmiths. Lathe, sander, drill press, table saw, etc etc.

Shape shifting "on the fly" is what(?) interesting, but what about the tires? Do the "knobbies" come out of the highway tires at the same time you switch the frame from highway to off road. This is about moving on different kinds of terrain right? I think you are missing the biggest part of the whole deal - traction. Are you suggesting when we get at the end of the pavement we switch tires to go over logs? There is no way this is remotely practical for the multi-purpose uses you are proposing.

This looks to me like the movie "transformers". Nice techno glitz, but we have been down the multipurpose road before, with a lot of machines, regardless of batteries, magnets, or composite materials.

The only "multipurpose" machine that has stood the test of time is the tractor, and that is because of attachments not shape shifting.

Militaries want a go anywhere option.
For us civilians I would run the road tires when off to work.
If after work I wanted to go cow-trailing,
I'd probably pop on the Enduro tires.
Most who want to ride on the road to the spot where they go off-road
(like hunters) may opt to run the Enduro tires.
If you want to get serious off-road, fine
the knobbies are there;
otherwise you can always bring the truck or car
and put the extra wheels into the trunk.

That is as good as technology can do for you.
There is no such thing as one tire for everything.
Adventure bike tend to run 60-70% road and their tires reflect that.
Choose what you like.
Panther still takes you to more places that other options can.

That is what many younger riders want.
They want one bike, not a garage full.
They want it to be able to take them wherever they choose to go.

Thruthefence
06-26-2010, 01:19 PM
"Wheels pop-off with one nut
so you can put whatever tires on you want
in a minute or so."

What about that pesky chain drive?

I would like a detailed picture of who that's done.

What drives the jackscrew(?) that morphs the frame?

Thruthefence
06-26-2010, 01:44 PM
A true renaissance man, his skills are many:


http://www.erikbrinkman.com/IDS-Research/Project_List.html


Scroll down to DIV-9, the ultralight aircraft, that converts to an "electrified predator protective zone".

Now that's an idea whose time has come!

I wonder why that's not offered on the motorcycle?

When droves of adoring motorcycle enthusiasts surround you at Starbucks, just push "panic" and scoot away, leaving the newly electrified gawkers with only minor injuries.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 01:48 PM
"Wheels pop-off with one nut
so you can put whatever tires on you want
in a minute or so."

What about that pesky chain drive?

See the DRIVE booklet
http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Documents_(Design)/Drivetrain.pdf

I would like a detailed picture of who that's done.

What is also nice about that
is the chain comes on and off without passing thru the swingarm
which would have required either a wheel removal
or a master-link removal.

What drives the jackscrew(?) that morphs the frame?

The jack screw is a simple 4.5 inch fine-thread screw
(2.25 inches diameter ... stainless steel with a DLC coating)
It is a hefty screw but it is asked to take a large load)

It has a servo-motor at each end.
We use two just in case one malfunctions.
and to keep a torque balance (even load on each end)
which helps with longevity.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 01:56 PM
A true renaissance man, his skills are many:


http://www.erikbrinkman.com/IDS-Research/Project_List.html


Scroll down to DIV-9, the ultralight aircraft, that converts to an "electrified predator protective zone".

Now that's an idea whose time has come!

I wonder why that's not offered on the motorcycle?

When droves of adoring motorcycle enthusiasts surround you at Starbucks, just push "panic" and scoot away, leaving the newly electrified gawkers with only minor injuries.

IDS has been around since 1985 (OVER 130 PROJECTS)
and there are a lot of people and projects involved.
We post a few interesting ones on the WebSite
to help evoke thought since a lot of hobbyists and students visit.

I kinda like the ultra-light, but there are a ton of governments regs
such as restricting the engine.
IDS wants to put 3 singles in a row on the craft
so the pilot can cut out an engine or two when cruising
or carrying a light load or if a con-rod snaps in mid-air.
Government geeks are balking at that.

PS-
The Kevlar Kayaks uses as floats are still too heavy
and fabric ones are being worked on
but the framing needs to be a lot different than normal
since the loads are different.

What is especially nice is that the entire ultra-light's frame is a tension structure.
Hopefully that will make landings a lot more controllable and safer.

BTW-
Tons of probationary projects come thru
but very few make it thru the first phase.
This kind of work is a lot harder than it seems to many.
Any hunt-and-peck hobbyist can tell you the Devil is in the details
and we are quite used to dealing with large egos with 3/4 knowledge.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 02:15 PM
BTW-
Since a discussion of IDS in general
and the Ultra-Light has been opened ....

IDS-Research started April 1985.
It works like a club and communication is like a spoked wheel.
Ideas are sent encrypted and logged.

Ideas are then sent out to others in the group
as they pertain to the thread of that member.

Each member owns the part that he or she contributes.
When a project emerges from IDS-Research
to IDS-Development for Tech Transfer,
outside experts are called in to determine the value of each contribution
(a function of time, effort and results).

Five experts are used.
The top and bottom estimate is tossed
and the middle three averaged.

The portion is then that person's "stake" in the receipts.
1/3 of the proceeds go to the stake-holders.
The rest goes to pay for the project including legal
and any left over goes to other projects to keep the ball rolling.

This way inventors are not afraid of sharing with each other
and since most inventors know less than they imagine,
having a group helps bring a project to fruition far easier.

Also inventors are private.
They use a code just like with a Swiss Bank.
This way even if they work for a lab already
they can work on other projects with no conflict.

Most of us, including Erik
come from the R&D world
and have spent most of our lives in labs working with materials (metals included)
building prototypes and solving problems.

Fun stuff if you can keep the accountants away.

Thruthefence
06-26-2010, 02:19 PM
Tony, Have they considered some "out-of-the-box" consulting for capping the Gulf oil spill?

MuellerNick
06-26-2010, 02:37 PM
What about that pesky chain drive?

You should be able to change a complete wheel within one minute, even on the rear.

When I was an active Enduro racer, I changed a tube in 3 minutes (stopped, not guessed). That is wheel off, tire half off, tube out, new tube in, tire on, air in, wheel back. Be it front or rear. On the rear, it only takes an extra kick with your boot to slacken the chain.
But you had to know every move exactly. I had two spanners (one for the front nut, one for the rear) that had their other end cut off and forged to get the tire off the rim. They were only 150mm long. You don't need a long crow bar, you just have to know exactly where to put the lever.


Nick

Abner
06-26-2010, 03:06 PM
Do you not understand or do you not want to understand?
"Military wants the go anywhere option."
Traction is all about the tires. You expect them to carry another set of tires/wheels around on the riders back? You will need a knobby on the front to have turning ability in mud. So 2 tires? Carried where? Maybe a truck following behind full of tires and wheels.

Good grief this is absolutely ridiculous. Who gives a rat if the frame moves from "highway" to "off road". I could do 65+ mph on a Honda 250xls (on/off road model). No special button.
The "go anywhere" option already exists. This is a techno toy fashioned after the "transformers".

Good luck on raising money. No offense but that is not a good looking machine either.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Do you not understand or do you not want to understand?
"Military wants the go anywhere option."
Traction is all about the tires. You expect them to carry another set of tires/wheels around on the riders back? You will need a knobby on the front to have turning ability in mud. So 2 tires? Carried where? Maybe a truck following behind full of tires and wheels.

Good grief this is absolutely ridiculous. Who gives a rat if the frame moves from "highway" to "off road". I could do 65+ mph on a Honda 250xls (on/off road model). No special button.
The "go anywhere" option already exists. This is a techno toy fashioned after the "transformers".

Good luck on raising money. No offense but that is not a good looking machine either.

I did not see your prior comment concerning tires
until after I tried to address your "traction" issue.
Traction is of course a whole lot more than just tires
and so you got an over-all traction answer.
If you imagine that traction is just about tires
you may want to reflect on that a bit more.

The Militaries want a bike that goes anywhere.
will probably choose a tire partway between an Enduro and a Knobby
and certainly not any kind of tire available to you or me.
And it will in any case be far more capable of taking them anywhere
than any other motorcycle option ... stay focused Abner.

BTW-
Knobby front tires don't turn best in mud.
Remember in mud, front skiis and rear digs.

To even bring up a piece of crap disposable bike like the Honda XLS
brings a lot into question.
The frame was weak the suspension primitive,
The swingarm was on bushings. as was everything even the crankshaft.
The gearing was too tall for off-road and too short for the road
so you best stick to dirt roads or change the sprockets.

The engine as everything else on the bike
was made of very soft metal .... powdery cast aluminum magnesium.
to go 65 mph on the bike is not a safe idea.
It is not made to handle well at half that speed.

Bikes have come a hell of a long way.
Even an old Yamaha YZ 250 or IT 250
would have been much better choice
even though they had a "pogo" mono-shock
at least they had a descent shock and frame geometry
when compared to a rat bike like the Honda XLS of all choices.
Geez.

Talk about a bike too embarrassing to be seen on.
You are talking about a kids toy
and not even an average quality kids toy.

Evan
06-26-2010, 03:48 PM
What? I go out to work on my real electric trike and find even more BS.



No Evan.
The motor is 9 inches by 8 inches and runs quite cool
and nowhere did I state a KW rating on a motor.


Yes you did. Back at post 60 where you quoted my question and then answered it thus:

Me: In the electric version what is the maximum watts per kilo that the motor(s) will draw for more than 30 seconds?

You: 35 hp .... 1 hp = 745.699872 watts.



IDS has been around since 1985 (OVER 130 PROJECTS)
and there are a lot of people and projects involved.

No it hasn't since it doesn't exist except in your own mind. There are a number of corporations that are named IDS but none of them are yours.


Every motorcycle is a compromise of sorts, buy a cruiser and you can’t ride off road, buy something for the back woods and highway riding becomes uncomfortable. Erik Brinkman, an inventor and designer with IDS (Interactive Design Studios) in Victoria, British Columbia, thought about the problem and came up with the R-Bike, a shape shifting motorcycle.

http://www.zxforums.com/forums/general-discussion/4188-r-bike-shape-shifting-motorcycle.html

There is no such company in Victoria.


You are spreading these lies all over the web but they are very easy to check. I really think you are delusional. You have built yourself a comfortable fantasy and it has taken over.

For instance:



Dr. Albert Binder wrote:

Erik Brinkman is well known in my MIT circles as one of the best designers the world has ever produced. Some of his work is in the Smithsonian. He has been in Business Week, the cover of American Machinist and is in College Textbooks.

http://www.thebikergene.com/custom-bikes/variable-geometry-r-bike-shape-shifts-to-adapt-to-riding-conditions/

The same text is found on many sites that have been conned into featuring this fantasy.

A quick check of American Machinist shows:

http://ixian.ca/pics7/ebrink.jpg

Then you conned another site to do this story:

http://www.pddnet.com/news-print-issue-08-ea-shap-shifting-cat-082709/

http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmoto1.jpg
http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmoto2.jpg
Another check shows:

http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmoto.jpg

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 03:49 PM
You should be able to change a complete wheel within one minute, even on the rear.

When I was an active Enduro racer, I changed a tube in 3 minutes (stopped, not guessed). That is wheel off, tire half off, tube out, new tube in, tire on, air in, wheel back. Be it front or rear. On the rear, it only takes an extra kick with your boot to slacken the chain.
But you had to know every move exactly. I had two spanners (one for the front nut, one for the rear) that had their other end cut off and forged to get the tire off the rim. They were only 150mm long. You don't need a long crow bar, you just have to know exactly where to put the lever.


Nick

Yep one nut and 5 studs.
Pop-off and pop-on
A special design still not free to completely show yet
due to intel property issues
but quite similar to F1
although ours locks on a bit different.

Generally pretty similar though-out the racing world

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 03:58 PM
What? I go out to work on my real electric trike and find even more BS.


Yes you did. Back at post 60 where you quoted my question and then answered it thus:

Me: In the electric version what is the maximum watts per kilo that the motor(s) will draw for more than 30 seconds?

You: 35 hp .... 1 hp = 745.699872 watts.

35 hp .... 1 hp = 745.699872 watts.
is not the continuous running power of the motor
which is how electric motors are rated.
Talk to an electric motor person.
I have no patience for your stupidity.
You pretend to have a brain an then don't show one..

No it hasn't since it doesn't exist except in your own mind. There are a number of corporations that are named IDS but none of them are yours.


http://www.zxforums.com/forums/general-discussion/4188-r-bike-shape-shifting-motorcycle.html

There is no such company in Victoria.

Nonsense


You are spreading these lies all over the web but they are very easy to check. I really think you are delusional. You have built yourself a comfortable fantasy and it has taken over.

For instance:


The same text is found on many sites that have been conned into featuring this fantasy.

A quick check of American Machinist shows:

http://ixian.ca/pics7/ebrink.jpg

Look at the Media page on the WebSite and you can see the cover.

Then you conned another site to do this story:

http://www.pddnet.com/news-print-issue-08-ea-shap-shifting-cat-082709/

http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmoto1.jpg
http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmoto2.jpg
Another check shows:

http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmoto.jpg

When the Media does an article they usually get it about 80% right.
They asked us about Denver and we told them we are negotiating with the government of Colorado
to put the military production there
just as we are negotiating with California to put the Electric production there.

Panther is a BC Canada Corp
but before production actually starts we shall probably become a Delaware Corp.
That part still depends a bit of the US Government Regime.


Oh Evan you are coming across as sick.
You claim we were not on the cover of American Machinist,
yet I already gave you the link.
Grab the image off the Media page and zoom it and it gives you the exact month.

I am losing my patience with you as a patient.
It is like talking to a druggy.

I suggest since you live in "Western Canada" that you go roll one.
put on your tin hat, and listen to your "wind music" while you hum your favourite mantra
or (LOL) play with your "non-contact gears"
... sure sounds like that will take a lot of torque with no contact !
I have you pegged now.
You are a fruitcake.

Evan
06-26-2010, 04:04 PM
Give it up Erik. You have been exposed. There is much more that I haven't yet posted. I'll be talking to your ISP on Monday and then perhaps the RCMP.

If you want to avoid any such difficulties then post a clear disclaimer on your web site that explains that this is an elaborate fantasy web site.

Evan
06-26-2010, 04:08 PM
http://ixian.ca/pics7/ids.jpg

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 04:15 PM
Of course we are all led to believe that the Media, especially the world Bible of Machining, does not do its homework, but Evan is always right.... exhale Evan.

http://scrollermechanics.com/American_Machinist.jpg


Call Penton Publishing.
Patricia Smith was the Editor
It was a 4 page cover story. (1999)

And then there is Design News, AP, McGraw Hill college textbooks (twice)
in which Erik is listed for that specific achievement.
Since you are Canadian Evan,
There is the Globe and Mail, Canadian Press, Plant Magazine, Canadian Business Magazine ... shall I go one.


For the sake of the other readers, all these publications were "conned"
because tin-hat Evan with his no-contact gears and wind music (Hummmm) knows better.

The National Belting Association another group not as smart as "tin hat Evan"

See what drugs do Evan !

Evan
06-26-2010, 04:35 PM
Let's see a link to your MIT Phd dissertation, your name in the Alumni roster, The IDS letters of incorporation and the address of your Denver headquarters.

Your turn.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 04:40 PM
[QUOTE=Evan]Give it up Erik. You have been exposed. There is much more that I haven't yet posted. I'll be talking to your ISP on Monday and then perhaps the RCMP.

poor sick puppy.

And you imagine that you could get the attention of Erik Brinkman !

He will read these posts and laugh, but it is my job to address comments.

First you are exposed as a fool on metallurgy and any knowledge of motorcycles.
Then you are exposed as demented when it comes to Scroller Mechanics and the IDS-Group.
If I keep this up I could get fired for bothering with you too long.
I was hired for my judgement and communications skills.

My communications skills have shown the error in every statement you have made
showing you to be nothing but ego and wind with no education
and no desire to learn.

Your "projects" as well prove you are a tin-hat.
Even though I have, and I think the forum would agree,
tried hard to give very precise and detailed teaching to you
there is no interest in learning. There is only distortion and ego and wind
and all the signs of a disturbed mind in need of constant affirmation from a forum of people
who may well have not known better .... until now.

Answer this one question to prove my point.
How can gears with no contact transfer a load ?
(look at his WebSite .... and see what drug use does over time)

I am done with you Evan.

Time and effort should not be wasted on someone proven to be insane
and my judgement would come into question if I were to continue.

We get wackos every few months.
There have even been death threats.
There have been threats to come over and "teach us a lesson"
(usually because we don't let them play).
IT COMES WITH THE TERRITORY.

Our friends in the RCMP and FBI are well aware of all of these.
The ISP is also well aware
and we are happy to have you added to the wacko list.

Evan
06-26-2010, 04:47 PM
No answers? I am only asking for public information. You are required to publish your dissertation. Where is it?

Abner
06-26-2010, 04:50 PM
If you think that shortening or lengthening the wheel base and center of gravity is some sort of game changing technology I think you are very mistaken. If the military wants a heavy duty dirt bike I'm very sure they can get one with fewer moving parts (always better) than this one. Oh and it just might work on pavement too, just imagine that.

The Artful Bodger
06-26-2010, 04:57 PM
If the military wants a heavy duty dirt bike I'm very sure they can get one with fewer moving parts (always better) than this one. .

I think that would depend on which military you are talking about.:)

Evan
06-26-2010, 05:04 PM
We get wackos every few months.
There have even been death threats.
There have been threats to come over an teach us a lesson.
Our friends in the RCMP and FBI are well aware of all of these.
The ISP is also well aware
and we are happy to have you added to the wacko list.


Ohh nooo. Not that! You have friends in the FBI? And the RCMP? I am not threatening you. I may be reporting you. If you haven't yet noticed I am not easy to insult. I really do not care what others say about me. It an aspect of my personality type.


And you imagine that you could get the attention of Erik Brinkman !

He will read these posts and laugh, but it is my job to address comments.

First you are exposed as a fool on metallurgy and any knowledge of motorcycles.
Then you are exposed as demented when it comes to Scroller Mechanics and the IDS-Group.
If I keep this up I could get fired for bothering with you too long.
I was hired for my judgement and communications skills.

My communications skills have shown the error in every statement you have made
showing you to be nothing but ego and wind with no education
and no desire to learn.


I see that I was correct in my assessment. You truly are delusional. It now seems that you are beginning to unravel.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 05:11 PM
I address the rest of the Forum
since our demented little friend has shown to be out of reach to reason.

As those of you who have gone to school know,
dissertations are sometimes although often not published depending on their content.

When someone works in sensitive areas of research,
a lot of information that can lead someone to friends or relatives is automatically scrubbed.

Panther is easy to look up as a BC corp.

and ... Abner, you now can speak for the Military better than they can ?
What kind of loony nest have I walked into here ?

and .... to the "Arful Bodger" (not sure what Bodger means)
the bike has roughly half the total parts of typical motorcycles
and you frankly can't make it go in such varied topography
without changing the geometry, which then requires a movement.

and who is it that still insists we have a Denver HQ
although that was cleared up already,
oh yes, the one who cannot be reasoned with.

I am not sure I can add any further intelligence that would make any difference,
so I'll thank those who had thoughtful polite questions
and wish the very best recovery to that special case.

Cheers.

S_J_H
06-26-2010, 05:25 PM
This is getting very bizarre. I'm not sure what the hell is going on here.
Tony Botello,
All that is needed to help your credibility is to simply show us a real bike or a link to a real life prototype or even just a prototype of the frame would greatly help your credibility!

In this link that Evan posted- http://www.thebikergene.com/custom-bikes/variable-geometry-r-bike-shape-shifts-to-adapt-to-riding-conditions/
One of your customers going by the name "Dr. Albert Binder" defends the Panther bike in response to some criticism by the author of the article on Dec 10 2008.
He (Dr. Albert Binder) claims to have pre ordered a $60,000 Panther bike. Yet you say you have no knowledge of this person in post#45
Nobody here has any idea who this Albert Binder you mention is.


I find that very odd.


Hey Evan, have you seen these electric Bikes?
http://www.brammo.com/home/

Steve

Abner
06-26-2010, 05:32 PM
and ... Abner, you now can speak for the Military better than they can ?

I thought about that before I posted. Given the quagmire of Afghanistan and "Shock and Awe" in Iraq maybe I can.

What do you offer that is so technologically superior that anyone would want to invest in it? Perhaps this is why it is hard to get investors?
Look from a emotionally detached point of view.
2 wheels- check
engine - check
seat - check
handlebars - check
headlight - check
fenders - check
Sounds like a motorcycle to me. IMHO you have nothing of great worth here.
Seriously this is not a game changer.

What you have is a "transformer" like my kids used to play with, and get real this isn't even a chitty chitty bang bang kind of machine.

How about an Amphicar - bad car worse boat , or a sea plane.

You have a motorcycle -- woohoo!!

Will the military buy it? Good grief who knows. Make an exploding model they like that sort of stuff.

All I know is I would never invest a nickle in what you presented here.

Like I said - good luck raising money, especially in this economy, for a motorcycle with a variable wheel base.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 05:44 PM
This is getting very bizarre. I'm not sure what the hell is going on here.
Tony Botello,
All that is needed to to help your credibility is to simply show us a real bike or a link to a real life prototype or even just a prototype of the frame would greatly help your credibility!

In this link that Evan posted- http://www.thebikergene.com/custom-bikes/variable-geometry-r-bike-shape-shifts-to-adapt-to-riding-conditions/
One of your customers going by the name "Dr. Albert Binder" defends the Panther bike in response to some criticism by the author of the article on Dec 10 2008.
He (Dr. Albert Binder) claims to have pre ordered a $60,000 Panther bike. Yet you say you have no knowledge of this person in post#45
I find that very odd.


Hey Evan, have you seen these electric Bikes?
http://www.brammo.com/home/

Steve

I don't handle orders and don't have a list
and don't talk to people who order.

I have said that people can order
Their deposits are put into an escrow account.
They can get a refund anytime until their individual build begins
and they can transfer their place in line to someone else
anytime as long as gthey notify the company.

When the company delayed the beginning of production
with the collapse of the American Economy,
I do know that everyone was notified of the delay
and anyone who wanted to opt out for now could easily do so
and receive a complete refund.

The actual bike, as I stated earlier,
will be shown ONLY when we can deliver bikes
(otherwise it would frankly not have nearly the benefit to us or customers).
The bike will then be shown on TV and in a proper Bike Show
not just to placate someone on a forum.

I have not been asked to respond to such things as forums for very long
and frankly have not expected to so easily connect with silly sorts
and as you can tell I am still a little green at dealing with people
who imagine they know and imagine little else.
Also, I don't go back two years or more and read all the forum entries.

As an interesting aside, one of our new prospective prototypers (not directly associated with our company)
designed the Brammo.
He also designs bikes for Michael Jordon's Racing team.
It is a nice little bike capable of in-town travel for about 25 miles
(although I have seen articles claiming 40).
The Original bike was German.
They just switched to a new type of Lithium battery out of Los Angeles
and now they may well soon be able to have 35 miles or so on a charge (and claim 50).
They are very nice.

There is also another promising brand called "Zero".
They use an old-school engine and not much capacity,
but they are a dirt bike and don't need much range.

Brammo and Zero are frankly the only two that I can show any confidence in.
they are small and their range is short
but all that will change over the next 3-5 years.

They are out of Santa Cruz.

Evan
06-26-2010, 05:47 PM
Steve,

It is very bizzare. Everthing I check come up nonexistent, missing or false. For instance, I just checked the contact phone number given in the contact us page for the Denver "operation". It isn't in the phone book so it either doesn't exist or it is unlisted. Now, Why would somebody have an unlisted number for a large corporation headquarters? Here is why:


If it is a scam it is very elaborate. There are underground businesses that provide untraceable call forwarding. They make a line to line connection from an incoming call to an outgoing line that transfers the call to anyplace in the world. The scammer takes note of the incoming phone number and answers the phone accordingly. That way it is possible to seem to have multiple locations anyplace you want where you can find such a service. Denver happens to be a main communication hub for the networks so it is no surprise to find such a service there.

MuellerNick
06-26-2010, 05:51 PM
and you frankly can't make it go in such varied topography
without changing the geometry, which then requires a movement.


Your are quite wrong about that.
1.) you compared your geometry to a trial. That is -sorry- dead stupid. This thing will never be a trial. They do have the lowest possible COG. They do have a completely different damping. They do require really talented drivers. The average military guy will never be able to exploit a trial.
2.) An Enduro (not something like a BMW; I was raised in Munich, but in my eyes they do just have an Enduro-sticker) like an Husqvarna, Husaberg, KTM is already too much for an average driver and you still can do all kinds of trail that is within the reach of the physical limits of an beyond-average-driver.
3.) With a real Enduro, you can do highways and sand and mud. There is absolutely no need for changing the geometry. You do that by shifting weight. And that's what your stupid brain-dead saddle prevents.
4.) Straddling? WTF!? Straddling is the biggest error you can ever do. Feet on the pegs, knees tight to the saddle/tank. If in doubt, gas it. Feet on the floor -> FAIL!


Do you know Le Touquet? The beach race in France? Imagine going at 140 kmh along the beach with thousands of tracks you cross with an acute angle? Not with that strange frame and that stupid seat. Maybe you find pictures where the driver seats under those conditions. And after that long straight run right into the dunes with soft sand. Completely different seating position. Not with your crap, not with your tank, not with your handle bar. Grommit will bark!
I'd like to see your testdriver trying to brake. BRUHAHA! No way to shift his weight.

You got it all wrong! You don't have the slightest idea of offroading. You can make fine renderings.

Maybe the military wants your Wallace-bike. But then, they are as clueless as you are.

Crap, dreamer, moron.


Nick

aboard_epsilon
06-26-2010, 05:52 PM
what...you cant even show us a "real" wheel !

or a "real" bare engine

that's what it would take to get our confidence in you Tony

or even one "real" componant .

or even pictures of the "real" mechanical workshop where all this engineering is going on ..with you preferably in the picture

all the best.markj

MuellerNick
06-26-2010, 05:57 PM
or even pictures of the "real" mechanical workshop where all this engineering is going on ..with you preferably in the picture

He is ashamed. They only have Bridgeports.


Nick

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 05:58 PM
what...you cant even show us a "real" wheel !

or a "real" bare engine

that's what it would take to get our confidence in you Tony

or even one "real" componant .

or even pictures of the "real" mechanical workshop where all this engineering is going on ..with you preferably in the picture

all the best.markj

Patience is a bitch isn't it !

I know Erik just did an interview with Bloomberg a bit over a week ago
and I am sure if he feels he wants to pre-empt a showing it would be there.
Of course I'm sure our tin-hat friend would accuse that of being a con as well.
Dumb of Bloomberg, eh tin hat ?

You know the engine looks a lot like a single cylinder version of a Harley Twin.
with the different valve covers rounded crankcase and round cylinder but still based on Harley tooling
and a lot of basic Harley dimensions.

The 4 inch 3-beam LED headlight is not allowed to be shown yet (manufacturer's request).

The Instrument cluster is an iPod Touch which everyone has seen,

I don't think there is really anything dramatic to see.
You can see how the frame works from the Video page on the WebSite.
The steering mechanism is not shown for IP reasons,
but I think the WebSite has explained everything ad nauseam.

For the rest, it maybe frustrating
like waiting for the iPhone-4 and not believing
but hey, that is marketing.
Enjoy the ride,

I just regret the apparent need for some in this forum to have gotten childish and ugly about it.
We (most of us) are adults here.
But having seen the tin-hat's website I understand a bit better.
I will slowly get better at this job.

I am not in control of orders or marketing decisions.
I think you will agree that in most areas I have done my homework quite well
... frankly more by just reading the WebSite than anything else.

So, not much surprise prior to the final debut
which will happen when the bikes are ready for production and delivery
which I am sure you would agree is the reasonable thing to do.

Jim Doherty
06-26-2010, 06:00 PM
I was hired for my judgement and communications skills.


I'm surprised that an MIT graduate would have such a poor grasp of the english language. I have an easier time understanding the clerk at the local stop and rob who just stepped off the boat than making sense of your tirades. I would prefer to see proof of alternate claims instead of attacking someone's character,which by the way shows poor judgement.
I look foward to seeing the outcome, I'm betting on Evan.

Jim

topct
06-26-2010, 06:05 PM
I have said that people can order
Their deposits are put into an escrow account.
They can get a refund anytime until their individual build begins
and they can transfer their place in line to someone else
anytime as long as gthey notify the company.

So you are accepting deposits?

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 06:15 PM
In this link that Evan posted- http://www.thebikergene.com/custom-bikes/variable-geometry-r-bike-shape-shifts-to-adapt-to-riding-conditions/

Steve

Dr Albert Binder certainly seems to know a lot about a machine he's not taken deliver of yet.

I really liked the nano coated diamond gears. Why not just make them out of carborundum instead ?

And one thing I can comment on have had a great deal to do with it is that Dupont Blue foam is not an isolating gel but an insulating foam material.

This whole article is a con using buzz works with no substance.

Show a prototype.

Unless you can do this you are nothing but a fraud.
Any fool can do pretty 3D models.

Would you invest on nothing but a put together resume and a 3D picture ?

If you would then you have fallen out of an eejit tree and hit your stupid head on every branch on the way down.

.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 06:19 PM
what...you cant even show us a "real" wheel !

or a "real" bare engine

that's what it would take to get our confidence in you Tony

or even one "real" componant .

or even pictures of the "real" mechanical workshop where all this engineering is going on ..with you preferably in the picture

all the best.markj

Why would anyone want to see me ?

S_J_H
06-26-2010, 06:20 PM
Here's a good thread started by "Eric Brinkman" at CNCzone.com and well worth the read, note some of his quotes on the machining tolerances for the bike on page 3 :D . http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80073

Steve

Bmyers
06-26-2010, 06:23 PM
Patience is a bitch isn't it !


You know the engine looks a lot like a single cylinder version of a Harley Twin.
with the different valve covers rounded crankcase and round cylinder but still based on Harley tooling
and a lot of basic Harley

For the rest, it maybe frustrating
like waiting for the iPhone-4 and not believing


Why would anyone base a single cylinder engine on a H-D v twin ? (and I am a Harley fan)

Difference with the I phone 4 is: There is past past products to prove it can exist.

aboard_epsilon
06-26-2010, 06:25 PM
Why would anyone want to see me ?

to prove that you are a real ..

you are like a politician dodging the issues .

all you have to do, is take a couple of pictures..of something non sensitive ..but it is on view in your renderings

until then........you and your company are just like your ideas.... virtual !!!

all the best.markj

RB211
06-26-2010, 06:34 PM
Whoopy do, a motor cycle that does not even use any transparent aluminum!

Here is my twin drive. As you can see, I made it with transparent aluminum, and all the tolerances are dead nuts accurate to .0001. All the rotating surfaces have perfect run-out. Isn't it pretty? Tony, why doesn't your motorcycle have transparent aluminum?

http://www.flightschoolreview.net/images/twindrive.jpg

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 06:40 PM
He is ashamed. They only have Bridgeports.


Nick


We prefer HAAS

And different parts are made in many different places.
Gears in Boston
Heads in Milwaukee
Shocks specially made for us in the SouthWest
We have one location just for the Diesel head.
Kevlar in a military Helmet factory elsewhere.
Headlight again elsewhere.
Some parts come from overseas.
Mainly Germany and Italy

Manufacturing takes place in dozens of location and many suppliers
but assembly is another matter.
Just like building a car.
When you by a Chevy,
those parts and systems assemblies come from all over the world

The final assembly facility is divided by product culture and facility size.
We have a policy that a facility must be small enough
so that all the employees and their families be able to attend a BBQ.

The Electric is a different culture than the Military
so they get assembled in different facilities.

You hobbyist are imagining some single shop.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 06:45 PM
Whoopy do, a motor cycle that does not even use any transparent aluminum!

Here is my twin drive. As you can see, I made it with transparent aluminum, and all the tolerances are dead nuts accurate to .0001. All the rotating surfaces have perfect run-out. Isn't it pretty? Tony, why doesn't your motorcycle have transparent aluminum?

http://www.flightschoolreview.net/images/twindrive.jpg


Actually the cover for the screen on the instrument pod uses Beta-Alumina
which, as you know is an Aluminum-Silicon mix
and looks just like clear glass only can be bent quite a bit
and is extremely scratch resistant.

The bike is also the same one ten thou.
Takes the worry out of repeatable parts.

What advantages do you seek in Beta-Alumina in your application ?
What is your application ?
Friction surfaces ?

PS-
I love the organic ceramics and metallic ceramics and metallic organics emerging.
In materials the most exciting is how they are getting such unexpected attributes
for example by assembling materials at the nano level.
Gold with 800 times the reflectivity come to mind.

We are in an emerging time.
I feel like science is just being born
and I am standing there with my mouth hanging open like a 9 year old kid ... in total awe.

Manufacturers often send us new materials still in the lab stage
to see if we can do something with them.
Weird spooky stuff.

I have held large objects so light that they float in the air forever.

I have had a ScrollerWheel in my hand that is physical
but has such low friction that it feels like liquid
and the mind gets confused when you rotate it.

We have a material in hand that literally blocks magnetic flux without itself becoming magnetic.
Stuff that seems to defy Physics.

BTW,
Speaking of that ....
Want to see a picture of Erik ?
Here is a link to a video showing this new material in a simple primitive model.
So far 3 Nobel Physicists have claimed the video is faked.

(everyone lives in a box of their own making based in their past assumptions
so no negative reflection on thee three guys .... all understandable)

I have played with it myself.
No fake, just weird as hell.
I don't know if pure Physics interestS a Machining Guy but here it is.

PS-
Don't make any conclusions.
It is not what you might first think.
This on the surface does indeed seem like tin-hat stuff !
The video is real (had to just remind you of that)

http://www.ErikBrinkman.com/Magnetics/Home.html

I'll tell you up front
that the material keeps the magnetic flux internal
without itself becoming magnetic

(HE USESCNEODYMIUM N52 MAGNETS ... THE STRONGEST PERMANENT MAGNETS MADE
just to really make the point)

As one magnet approaches the other the end is blind
and the sides only see the flux about a half inch away from the end.
That is why the tube is tilted slightly,
so the approaching magnet does not see the left side of the other.

AGAIN, BE CARFUL NOT TO THINK YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING.

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 06:50 PM
Boys, Please have a bit of reverence.
For we are in the presence of possibly one of the better trolls out there.

He's good, but not that good.
Dupont Blue foam does exist, but doesn't do what he says.
His Denver factory with it high performance machines, all running on Mac's as will his CAD CAM setups should have been operational in the fall 2009.
It is now summer 2010 and his goal of a 1,000 engines per month is now at least 8,000 engines behind.

His CAD program Cenon is for printed circuit boards, his CAM package Mayka is windows based and his high performance Intermoto machines run on Siemens controllers also from a Windows front end.

So Eric, Tony, Albert do you really live under a bridge ?

[edit] Machines now changed to Hass two posts up, what was it about a liar having a good memory ?

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 06:53 PM
I feel like science is just being born
and I am standing there with my mouth hanging open like a 9 year old .

Probably the only true statement you have made.

I though the best quote though was off the CNC Zone forum.

"A PHD isn't a panacea. My "little sister" has two of 'em. She's got the common sense and real world problem solving ability of a stump."

aboard_epsilon
06-26-2010, 06:58 PM
substitute Virtual Tony for magical trevor ..and panther for cow

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/magical+trevor/

All the best.markj

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 07:22 PM
Boys, Please have a bit of reverence.
For we are in the presence of possibly one of the better trolls out there.

He's good, but not that good.
Dupont Blue foam does exist, but doesn't do what he says.
His Denver factory with it high performance machines, all running on Mac's as will his CAD CAM setups should have been operational in the fall 2009.
It is now summer 2010 and his goal of a 1,000 engines per month is now at least 8,000 engines behind.

His CAD program Cenon is for printed circuit boards, his CAM package Mayka is windows based and his high performance Intermoto machines run on Siemens controllers also from a Windows front end.

So Eric, Tony, Albert do you really live under a bridge ?

[edit] Machines now changed to Hass two posts up, what was it about a liar having a good memory ?

Dupont's Blue Foam is an energy absorber. Totally different.
We use that material to absorb vibration in several spots on the bike.
it goes from a foam into almost a gel when impacted
if it is he "blue foam" I think you are referring to.
DuPont sent IDS that stuff some 15 years ago.

We have been working to make IDS a 100% Apple operation.
As you know machine shop equipment runs on Unix
which Mac handles very well.

Those machines that do run Windows are still Unix based.

I think the manufacturing delay due to the economic collapse in 2008
was explained twice now.

Denver was ONLY about one type of bike
which was also now explained 3 times.

I am not sure what your HAAS comment is about.
HAAS BTW does not run Windows.

We had an opportunity to purchase 14 pieces of assorted machining equipment a couple of years ago
but it turned out to be too much of a problem (too many unknowns and we wanted service from one source)
The capacity would have been 400 per shift per month.

Machinery is going for a third on the auction market now
so there are a lot to choose from
but frankly we feel HAAS has the best service by far.

You then mention that we use CAD program Cenon and the CAM package Mayka
neither of which nobody here a has ever heard of.

We have not nor ever do mention which packages we use,
partly because the "package" we use is so extremely custom tailored for us
and is not "off the shelf" and can hardly be called a package.
The breadth of the kind of projects we have makes using an "off-the-shelf" product an issue.

It is not useful, not does it speak well of your intelligence to refer to me as a liar
when I am constantly having to correct your statements.
There is no need to try to emulate tin-hat Evan.

I am attempting to be as detailed and accurate as I am allowed to be.

S_J_H
06-26-2010, 07:27 PM
Another forum where he discusses the engine-
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200704

Yeah.. I was willing to give them a little benefit of doubt at first. I sort of figured the bike was the vision of grandeur of somebody looking to do something wildly different with a motorcycle.

If the bike actually existed we could have had a real debate on the design and function of it. Instead what we have is some sort of con or maybe even worse, somebody who may have lost touch with reality.
It is sad either way.

If you can prove otherwise by showing a real life bike, I'll gladly say I was wrong.
I have a real bike to go play with now, just have to find my tinhat first..
Steve

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 07:27 PM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/files_troll_2.jpg

.

Michael Edwards
06-26-2010, 07:44 PM
So Eric, Tony, Albert do you really live under a bridge ?




Jon Banquer maybe, just throwin it out there.


ME

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 07:48 PM
Another forum where he discusses the engine-
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200704

Yeah.. I was willing to give them a little benefit of doubt at first. I sort of figured the bike was the vision of grandeur of somebody looking to do something wildly different with a motorcycle.

If the bike actually existed we could have had a real debate on the design and function of it. Instead what we have is some sort of con or maybe even worse, somebody who may have lost touch with reality.
It is sad either way.

If you can prove otherwise by showing a real life bike, I'll gladly say I was wrong.
I have a real bike to go play with now, just have to find my tinhat first..
Steve


Same childish circle like the Bay Area group
that thought if it isn't a sport bike it doesn't count
and then resort to name calling
which is what people do when they have nothing of substance to say.

Is this what these forums are
for man-boys tossing mud and going in circles
of mental self-gratification of themselves and each other ?

You don't need to reach far inside yourself
to find something of substance
but although I have understandably explained
the reason for a proper debut in a from venue
you still, since you haven't seen one, toss mud and pout like a little child.

Is there no intellect here ?
Can we not have an intellectual discussion
of the materials and systems and behavior issues that this design offers.
Can we not talk science here ?
Can we not talk about torsion and load and balance and the advantages.
Is this as deep as it goes ?

I was given this job so I could engage active minds
in a discussion of mechanical engineering and Physics of the project.
I am now getting nothing but a pissing match between man-boys.

BTW-
The only thing 'Wildly Different" with the Panther
other than the Double Wishbone on both ends and a few other details .... is the ShapeShifting.
The rest is all about quality strides, like the ceramic Kevlar clutch or the Tungsten-Cobalt internal parts.
A 100% rust free bike this over-engineered is a refreshing step up.

Maybe you should just imagine that it doesn't shape-shift.
Would help you focus ?

Michael Edwards
06-26-2010, 07:54 PM
and then resort to name calling
which is what people do when they have nothing of substance to say.

Is this what these forums are
for man-boys tossing mud and going in circles
of mental self-gratification of themselves and each other ?


Is there no intellect here ?
Can we not have an intellectual discussion

I am now getting nothing but a pissing match between man-boys.


Your own words are your worst enemy.

ME

Peter N
06-26-2010, 07:54 PM
His name is not really Tony you know, it's Marvin.
And it's not his Brain that's the size of a planet........

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 07:57 PM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/files_troll_2.jpg

.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 08:15 PM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/files_troll_2.jpg

.

You little boy-men need to let go of your gerkins
long enough to think with your other head.
You are too old for a babysitter
and as adults you should have too much pride and self-respect for this stupidity.

Home Shop Machinist was thoughtful enough to provide you with this forum
and it rude of you to make them look bad by abusing their hospitality.

I do not wish to presume that I can speak for the folks at Home Shop Machinist,
but when they created this forum I cannot image that they had this behavior in mind.

Please try not to abuse their good intentions.
I can only suppose that this was meant for an adult and intellectual conversation
about things related to machining and machined materials.

I feel like I walked into a Frat house
if there were such a l think in Middle School.
Maybe you should have a farting contest and really make this fun.

John Stevenson
06-26-2010, 08:19 PM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/files_troll_2.jpg

.

RB211
06-26-2010, 08:28 PM
Tony, I believe you are a very intelligent individual, some one who is always reading up on new technology, constantly striving to increase your knowledge.
I suggest you do the same with your social skills.

oldbikerdude37
06-26-2010, 08:34 PM
Guys want to buy a bike they can get on and ride, You know try before you buy? At least a video of one hauling the mail.
As far as onboard computers no thanks, a radio, lights and an engine that starts is all I want.

Arcane
06-26-2010, 08:35 PM
Well, Tony Bologna, you could always leave if you don't like the reception forum members have gave you. But you can't do that, can you? You have to win this war of words...trouble is your expertise is much too limited to be able to do anything more than create a website that you hope to use to take advantage of people with diminished mental capacities and I'm not sure if you personally created the website or if you've duped some geek into doing the work for you. I suspect the latter, but one never knows. I do know your writing style is the same as "Erik Brinkman" and I am certain he is just another of your many personas. I'll give you this...you are definitely entertaining! Who doesn't love a clown? (or should that be troll?:D)

Rustybolt
06-26-2010, 09:00 PM
There is only one way to get any doubters to shut up. A real product for real people to OOooh and ahhhh over. Right now I'm seeing bupkiss.

you would not believe how many times I heard," This is going to revolutionize,(name the area of interest), but I need somebody I can trust to do the design, machining, fabrication, etc. You'll be on the ground floor! of course they have no money right now, but when this thing takes off.........Oh boy!

Evan
06-26-2010, 09:08 PM
Here is another interesting tidbit. I ran a Gunning fog index test on the writing of Dr. Albert Binder, Erik Brinkman and Tony Botello. The material was on different web sites as I have already posted and I used similar amounts of material although the subject matter varied.

The Gunning fog index calculates things like word length, sentence length and punctuation to determine a numeric value that indicates the complexity of the writing style. It is frequently used in forensic text analysis to check for writing style similarity.

The fog index for Dr. Binder is 9.999, for Erik Brinkman it is 9.893 and for Tony Botello it is 9.931.

This means that all three personas have exactly the same writing styles within the context of the tested variables. The P value approaches 1 that they are the same person.

Evan
06-26-2010, 09:14 PM
The 4 inch 3-beam LED headlight is not allowed to be shown yet (manufacturer's request).



You mean something like this? I designed and built this last year. :D
You wouldn't be stealing my intellectual property would you?

http://ixian.ca/pics7/fod1.jpg

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:18 PM
You mean something like this? I designed and built this last year. :D
You wouldn't be stealing my intellectual property would you?

http://ixian.ca/pics7/fod1.jpg


I have similar headlights several times before.
Not original to you.

This is, was was already stated a 3-beam in a 4-inch diameter.
The way this old-style was designed (not by you)
is done this way because of heat issues not present in the design we use.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 09:20 PM
Hi Tony, I've read through quite a bit of your site and must say it's certainly revolutionary. You were understandably excited about the ultralight aircraft project, and mentioned it here a few pages back, but I was wondering if you could explain a little more about some points made in the FAQs of the Ultralight? Under "How safe will it be to fly?", could you elaborate on points 1 and 3? ie 1. It is a canard design with a zero-stall speed and 3. The entire structure is a "Tension Structure" so the entire unit absorbs the load of landing. Maybe you have some pictures of the prototypes you could post?

You certainly sound as if you have some high achievers on board:


Our CEO is the former head of Production for Mercedes.

Our CMO is the former EVP of Global marketing for Ford back when they owned Aston.

Our CFO is the former 25 year CEO of Chrysler back in the height of that company.

I was just wondering what their specific involvement is? I don't recall their names, can you please tell me who they are?

Pete

Evan
06-26-2010, 09:21 PM
It is my original design all right. Try to find one older. It isn't likely since the LEDs suitable for motorcycle headlight use did not exist until recently.

BTW, your postings are a gold mine of nonsense. Even though I am forcibly retired due to a medical condition and right now having to sit and do nothing I still don't have the time to respond and debunk all of the point you have posted.

Have you found your dissertation yet? What about the address of the Denver "operation" with the unlisted phone number? Why would you have an unlisted phone number and then post it on your web site? Or is it just a non working number?

Careful if you decide to post an address for something in Denver. I will go look to see what is there.

If you can't find your Dissertation I will write one for you. Back shortly.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:24 PM
Guys want to buy a bike they can get on and ride, You know try before you buy? At least a video of one hauling the mail.
As far as onboard computers no thanks, a radio, lights and an engine that starts is all I want.


On-board computer is no choice.
Mandated by governments
if the bike is to meet emissions regs.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:29 PM
It is my original design all right. Try to find one older. It isn't likely since the LEDs suitable for motorcycle headlight use did not exist until recently.

http://PantherMotorcycle.com/LED.jpg

Not yours.
I don't, therefore, think what you posted is yours either.
This has been around for years.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:31 PM
It is my original design all right. Try to find one older. It isn't likely since the LEDs suitable for motorcycle headlight use did not exist until recently.

BTW, your postings are a gold mine of nonsense. Even though I am forcibly retired due to a medical condition and right now having to sit and do nothing I still don't have the time to respond and debunk all of the point you have posted.

Have you found your dissertation yet? What about the address of the Denver "operation" with the unlisted phone number? Why would you have an unlisted phone number and then post it on your web site? Or is it just a non working number?

Careful if you decide to post an address for something in Denver. I will go look to see what is there.

If you can't find your Dissertation I will write one for you. Back shortly.

I think I can guess at the "medical condition" that forced you to retire.
Are you having trouble seeing a Denver phone number ?
Lift the tin hat from over your eyes.

Yes, that is what IDS needs, kooks like you showing up with tin hat in hand.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:37 PM
Hi Tony, I've read through quite a bit of your site and must say it's certainly revolutionary. You were understandably excited about the ultralight aircraft project, and mentioned it here a few pages back, but I was wondering if you could explain a little more about some points made in the FAQs of the Ultralight? Under "How safe will it be to fly?", could you elaborate on points 1 and 3? ie 1. It is a canard design with a zero-stall speed and 3. The entire structure is a "Tension Structure" so the entire unit absorbs the load of landing. Maybe you have some pictures of the prototypes you could post?

You certainly sound as if you have some high achievers on board:



I was just wondering what their specific involvement is? I don't recall their names, can you please tell me who they are?

Pete

If a canard type design (duck wing out front) stalls,
the plane rocks backwards and then forwards again
keeping it from taking a dive.

All the frame members are held in place under tension
so any sudden loads are absorbed very well by the entire airframe
not just a localized portion.

Their names for now are for the investment banks etc
and not for exposure to access by our tin-hat friends.
That would be cruel.

Great bunch of guys though
and the Benz guy is Canadian.

The Benz guy is CEO
The Ford guy is CMO
The former Chrysler CEO is CFO.

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 09:40 PM
Tony: I wouldn't bother trying to punk Evan.

Even if he is "trolling" the forum (which I highly doubt :p) unlike you he has helped many many members here solve problems both major and mundane. :)

Unlike you... you seem to be mostly smoke, mirrors, sales-pitch and foaming agent. :rolleyes:

In fact every time you post I have to flush the toilet... :D

Evan
06-26-2010, 09:40 PM
Here you go, no charge. It's even from MIT. :D





Architecting the Producer-Consumer Problem and a* Search with Oca

Anthony Botello Phd, Dr. Albert Binder and Erik Brinkman Phd
Abstract
The exploration of congestion control has developed public-private key pairs, and current trends suggest that the appropriate unification of linked lists and simulated annealing will soon emerge. In fact, few futurists would disagree with the evaluation of kernels. We argue that the infamous ubiquitous algorithm for the deployment of erasure coding by S. Kumar et al. runs in W(n!) time.
Table of Contents
1) Introduction
2) Methodology
3) Implementation
4) Experimental Evaluation

4.1) Hardware and Software Configuration

4.2) Dogfooding Our Application

5) Related Work
6) Conclusion

1 Introduction

Unified secure epistemologies have led to many technical advances, including superblocks and the partition table. Although related solutions to this quandary are bad, none have taken the "fuzzy" method we propose in this position paper. On a similar note, in fact, few electrical engineers would disagree with the investigation of A* search. The simulation of Web services would tremendously improve the synthesis of rasterization. This is an important point to understand.

In this paper we describe an encrypted tool for synthesizing the UNIVAC computer (Oca), validating that Boolean logic and wide-area networks are generally incompatible. Further, we view algorithms as following a cycle of four phases: prevention, evaluation, emulation, and visualization.

In this work, we make three main contributions. We introduce a novel approach for the construction of thin clients (Oca), disproving that simulated annealing and hash tables are regularly incompatible. We demonstrate that though the acclaimed "fuzzy" algorithm for the emulation of architecture that would make controlling scatter/gather I/O a real possibility by Sasaki et al. runs in O( n ) time, the well-known optimal algorithm for the synthesis of superblocks by Garcia [12] runs in O(n) time.

The rest of this paper is organized as follows. We motivate the need for extreme programming. On a similar note, we prove the synthesis of 802.11b. to achieve this intent, we motivate a certifiable tool for refining public-private key pairs (Oca), confirming that hierarchical databases can be made unstable, replicated, and distributed. Finally, we conclude.


2 Methodology

Oca relies on the natural architecture outlined in the recent well-known work by John Hennessy in the field of artificial intelligence. This is a theoretical property of our system. Any intuitive simulation of the deployment of e-business will clearly require that IPv6 can be made wearable, omniscient, and perfect; our system is no different. Furthermore, we hypothesize that the Turing machine can deploy compilers without needing to investigate information retrieval systems.

The model for Oca consists of four independent components: superblocks, the understanding of multicast frameworks, flexible symmetries, and the understanding of forward-error correction [17,10,20,22,3]. We hypothesize that each component of Oca requests reliable algorithms, independent of all other components. We consider a framework consisting of n DHTs. Thusly, the methodology that Oca uses holds for most cases.


3 Implementation

Though we have not yet optimized for scalability, this should be simple once we finish implementing the codebase of 86 Ruby files. We have not yet implemented the hacked operating system, as this is the least unproven component of Oca. Theorists have complete control over the codebase of 47 B files, which of course is necessary so that courseware [14] and wide-area networks can interact to realize this mission. Since Oca follows a Zipf-like distribution, programming the hand-optimized compiler was relatively straightforward. We have not yet implemented the server daemon, as this is the least appropriate component of our system.


4 Experimental Evaluation

Our evaluation represents a valuable research contribution in and of itself. Our overall evaluation seeks to prove three hypotheses: (1) that Boolean logic has actually shown exaggerated mean bandwidth over time; (2) that fiber-optic cables have actually shown muted response time over time; and finally (3) that the NeXT Workstation of yesteryear actually exhibits better median response time than today's hardware.

4.1 Hardware and Software Configuration

We modified our standard hardware as follows: we instrumented a deployment on DARPA's 10-node overlay network to prove the computationally multimodal nature of stochastic communication. We added some RAM to our mobile telephones [17]. We quadrupled the hard disk space of our 10-node testbed to measure the topologically robust behavior of DoS-ed technology. Third, hackers worldwide quadrupled the ROM space of our 1000-node cluster. The 300MB optical drives described here explain our expected results.


Oca does not run on a commodity operating system but instead requires a topologically modified version of EthOS Version 5.2, Service Pack 4. we implemented our congestion control server in SQL, augmented with randomly replicated extensions. All software components were linked using Microsoft developer's studio built on Richard Stallman's toolkit for lazily exploring the Internet.

Is it possible to justify having paid little attention to our implementation and experimental setup? The answer is yes. Seizing upon this approximate configuration, we ran four novel experiments: (1) we ran object-oriented languages on 33 nodes spread throughout the Internet-2 network, and compared them against von Neumann machines running locally; (2) we ran I/O automata on 81 nodes spread throughout the sensor-net network, and compared them against linked lists running locally; (3) we deployed 46 Macintosh SEs across the planetary-scale network, and tested our hierarchical databases accordingly; and (4) we ran 62 trials with a simulated WHOIS workload, and compared results to our courseware simulation.


We have seen one type of behavior in Figures 2 and 3; our other experiments (shown in Figure 4) paint a different picture. Note how rolling out gigabit switches rather than emulating them in courseware produce less discretized, more reproducible results. Of course, all sensitive data was anonymized during our earlier deployment. Continuing with this rationale, the curve in Figure 3 should look familiar; it is better known as H(n) = ( loglogn + n ).

Lastly, we discuss experiments (1) and (4) enumerated above. Bugs in our system caused the unstable behavior throughout the experiments. Next, the key to Figure 4 is closing the feedback loop; Figure 3 shows how Oca's NV-RAM throughput does not converge otherwise. Third, note that operating systems have less jagged median sampling rate curves than do hacked 16 bit architectures.


5 Related Work

The concept of introspective theory has been investigated before in the literature [5]. Furthermore, we had our solution in mind before Nehru published the recent little-known work on the evaluation of the lookaside buffer [7]. Further, we had our approach in mind before Sasaki and Brown published the recent foremost work on the understanding of Internet QoS. A litany of previous work supports our use of the lookaside buffer [15]. It remains to be seen how valuable this research is to the hardware and architecture community.

6 Conclusion

Our system will address many of the problems faced by today's biologists. To fix this riddle for read-write modalities, we presented new knowledge-based models. We confirmed that security in Oca is not a grand challenge. Lastly, we argued that the Ethernet and simulated annealing are often incompatible.


References
[1]
Bose, a., Shastri, L. F., Robinson, E., and Jacobson, V. Towards the study of robots. In Proceedings of WMSCI (Oct. 1994).


[2]
Brown, R., Leiserson, C., and Chandrasekharan, X. Contrasting IPv7 and the Internet using Poplin. In Proceedings of PODC (Sept. 2005).


[3]
Engelbart, D., and Backus, J. Deconstructing the UNIVAC computer with BuffyEyelid. In Proceedings of MOBICOM (Sept. 2002).


[4]
Engelbart, D., and Johnson, D. Investigating a* search using random epistemologies. In Proceedings of ECOOP (Sept. 1999).


[5]
Feigenbaum, E., Ito, U., Hopcroft, J., and Cocke, J. An analysis of wide-area networks with beslobber. In Proceedings of IPTPS (Jan. 1998).


[6]
Floyd, R., Hoare, C., and Takahashi, O. O. 802.11 mesh networks no longer considered harmful. Journal of Game-Theoretic Modalities 80 (Feb. 2004), 154-190.


[7]
Gayson, M. Towards the investigation of lambda calculus. In Proceedings of SIGMETRICS (Oct. 1999).


[8]
Gupta, a. 802.11 mesh networks considered harmful. In Proceedings of MICRO (Aug. 1994).


[9]
Gupta, X., Scott, D. S., Taylor, J., and Ramasubramanian, V. Analyzing e-commerce using "fuzzy" archetypes. In Proceedings of JAIR (May 1996).


[10]
Hamming, R., and Knuth, D. MOLLY: Simulation of Scheme. OSR 32 (Aug. 2001), 1-19.


[11]
Hartmanis, J., and Cook, S. Exploring Internet QoS and rasterization. In Proceedings of the Workshop on Secure, Certifiable Communication (July 1997).


[12]
Jackson, J. Developing expert systems and hash tables. In Proceedings of PODS (Apr. 2002).


[13]
Jones, S., and Hamming, R. Investigating Web services and evolutionary programming using surddeckel. In Proceedings of NSDI (Aug. 2003).

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 09:45 PM
...excuse me I have to flush the toilet now.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 09:47 PM
Thanks Tony, in the FAQ section it says that the canard design has a "zero-stall speed", can you explain what is specifically meant by the statement "zero-stall speed"?

Sorry regarding you boss(es) I don't understand why you can't name them? Why would that possibly be a secret? Having given a teaser as to who they are, and I'm sure based on the information you provided I could look up who they are, so why not just say their names? I don't understand all this cloak and dagger stuff.

Pete

edit: BTW no tin hat on this head so I think it's safe to let us know :)

lugnut
06-26-2010, 09:49 PM
I thought it was against the forum rules to try an sell items. You guys are giving this pecker head more advertizing space than he could afford in a hunderd years. Ignore him and get George to delete this pitiful thing.:mad:

dp
06-26-2010, 09:51 PM
It reads like a grammar engine wrote it. Grab a few buzz works, run it through a grammar rule set, and voila, pathological gibberish.

RB211
06-26-2010, 09:52 PM
Thanks Tony, in the FAQ section it says that the canard design has a "zero-stall speed", can you explain what is specifically meant by the statement "zero-stall speed"?

Sorry regarding you boss(es) I don't understand why you can't name them? Why would that possibly be a secret? Having given a teaser as to who they are, and I'm sure based on the information you provided I could look up who they are, so why not just say their names? I don't understand all this cloak and dagger stuff.

Pete

A canard certainly will stall with a zero airspeed, as any airfoil will. :)

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:53 PM
Tony: I wouldn't bother trying to punk Evan.

Even if he is "trolling" the forum (which I highly doubt :p) unlike you he has helped many many members here solve problems both major and mundane. :)

Unlike you... you seem to be mostly smoke, mirrors, sales-pitch and foaming agent. :rolleyes:

In fact every time you post I have to flush the toilet... :D

Oh, how mature.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 09:55 PM
I thought it was against the forum rules to try an sell items. You guys are giving this pecker head more advertizing space than he could afford in a hunderd years. Ignore him and get George to delete this pitiful thing.:mad:

If you paid attention you would know that it is not being produced yet
and if you think this forum is like advertisement,
you greatly over-estimate your popularity.

Oh, and thanks for the "pecker-head" comment
Again, really mature.
Makes what you have to say so much more relevant.

Evan
06-26-2010, 09:58 PM
Did you find the address yet? It must be around there somewhere.

dp
06-26-2010, 10:04 PM
Thanks Tony, in the FAQ section it says that the canard design has a "zero-stall speed", can you explain what is specifically meant by the statement "zero-stall speed"?

It is possible to build an airplane that is characteristically incapable of stalling, but it is not possible to build a wing that will not stall. The Ercoupe designed by Fred Weick, whom I've had the pleasure of meeting, was the first general aviation aircraft certified as characteristically incapable of stalling though you could easily modify it so it would stall.

Rutan built the EZE series to be stall resistant.

Evan
06-26-2010, 10:08 PM
When I recovered my Cessna 140 I re rigged the wings with 2 degrees of washout at the tips. It made it impossible to stall except in ground effect and increased the top speed by 4 knots. It also increased the landing speed by the same but that only meant it went up to about 32 knots.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:11 PM
A canard certainly will stall with a zero airspeed, as any airfoil will. :)

Pete, if I gave out their names
every demented Evan Williams
on prescription happy pills for mental disorders
would be harassing them as well.

I am paid to deal with wacko's.
As long as we now (or at least most of us) see Evan for what he is,
he is harmless.

He has a lot of free time on his hands
and if you had to sit around and do nothing all day
it would eventiually make you angry and nasty
and then nobody with come by to see you
and the computer and some plastic toys would be all you have left.

So he sits keeping himself mentally somewhat dosed every few hours
while he lives out his life on his computer
spending his disability of little plastic dreams
and wishing he were somewhere else being someone else.

I am sure he was normal at some time.,
but that kind of life could make anyone abnormal eventually.

I am also sure he has lots of time
to look stuff up for some of the forum's members
and reads a lot so he can come off as if he is educated and smart,
but all the reading in the world won't make you smart.
it just makes you full of it.

If you don't understand what you read
and can't take it to the next level,
then you are no different than my Browser.
Useful, but still not real enough.

We will have a great debut, and the Board will be there
along with several Celebs that have already indicated they will attend
and the bikes will be ridden
and (sorry to say) politicians will sit on them
and editors from several magazines will f go on day-long rides with us
and all will get a chance to have their say.

We are taking 4 bikes from show to show for a year
and lots of people will get a chance to ride.
All it good time as it is supposed to happen.

I just find parts of this day sad. When BMW showed images of their SS
way before they released the bike to the press for rides,
did these same man-boys claim it was vapour
or did they have intelligent questions and things to say ?

dp
06-26-2010, 10:13 PM
Now this is a good looking bike - and it's for sale ($5800). Wish I had room for one more.

http://micapeak.com/winona/harley/butcher_boy.gif

This bike was built by John Stafford in Wisconsin a long time ago. I'm surprised that Don, the current owner, is offering it for sale.

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 10:14 PM
Oh, how mature.

Indeed, certainly more mature than your behavior here.

I've been forum moderator at various sites around the internet since 1995, and I've seen "your" kind of troll before shilling everything from computer hardware to patent medicine.

When I worked at a fabrication shop in Ontario NY (*valanche) the owner got taken by someone like you... someone shilling a "next generation mail sorting system" said he needed this service and that item for free (PLEASE!!) so he could get his prototype ready for the "trade shows." Then he suddenly needed stuff in quantity so he could get the first units ready for deployment... then (of course!) based on "real world data" he begged us to do a ****load of revision work, obsoleting everything we made.. Guess what he didn't pay for either the parts in inventory that were useless.. and he didn't pay for the engineering changes.

While that scam was running the owner's cousin was taken by one of those "HHO free energy from water" scams. Went so far as to front money to the HHO scam company which then produced a slick video, then they talked him into making prototypes, and talked him into installing on in his new truck.



Company is more or less out of business now, they have maybe three employees left that aren't family members working for free.


Over the years, I've been "played" several times by employers making grandiose claims in regards to "future plans" when in fact they just needed someone to finish a order... or worse.




What I'm getting at Tony... is I can see right through you. I've seen your kind before, I know your game, and I'm on to you.



You... are not welcome here. The others are playing nice, having a bit of fun with you... but if it was MY forum I'd have deleted this malarkey and notified your IP that you are potentially running a scam.

Eventually this will catch up with you, and you'll be another footnote in internet history.

Until then... however I will continue to mock the hell out of you. :)

dp
06-26-2010, 10:16 PM
It also increased the landing speed by the same but that only meant it went up to about 32 knots.

:D

I've flown a lot of STOL planes and plopping down at 30 mph is one of the funnest things. Rotating at 35 and climbing out at 40 is a kick in the pants, too. Those are just too much fun!

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:17 PM
When I recovered my Cessna 140 I re rigged the wings with 2 degrees of washout at the tips. It made it impossible to stall except in ground effect and increased the top speed by 4 knots. It also increased the landing speed by the same but that only meant it went up to about 32 knots.

Recovered ? Did you dump it ?
Interested in a snapshot of the tips ?
If it helps the project, you get a piece.

"Impossible" to stall !?
I don't see how that could be possible.
Maybe easier to keep stable at the expense of a little bit of lift ?

Wing design is by the far the hardest part of that project.
We brought the world kiting champion and several others into the project
and did a lot of simulations.
Still not happy.

Sometimes the project goes forward,
sometimes it goes backwards.

Works great in some conditions and not in others.
That is why it remains in IDS-Research
and has not earned its way into IDS-Development.

Weight is the other issue we are not happy with.

PS-
Thanks for the constructive email.
Appreciated.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 10:21 PM
Hey Tony, well I guess the people would only be harassed if they allowed themselves to be. To save you the trouble then, could you please provide the full company incorporation details, and where it is incorporated, and I'll do a search of the directors myself. Will save you the bother.

Anyway, about that statement of "zero-stall speed"? Just wondering about that?

Pete

dp
06-26-2010, 10:22 PM
Recovered ? Did you dump it ?

Fabric wings, Einstein.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:24 PM
Indeed, certainly more mature than your behavior here.

I've been forum moderator at various sites around the internet since 1995, and I've seen "your" kind of troll before shilling everything from computer hardware to patent medicine.

When I worked at a fabrication shop in Ontario NY (*valanche) the owner got taken by someone like you... someone shilling a "next generation mail sorting system" said he needed this service and that item for free (PLEASE!!) so he could get his prototype ready for the "trade shows." Then he suddenly needed stuff in quantity so he could get the first units ready for deployment... then (of course!) based on "real world data" he begged us to do a ****load of revision work, obsoleting everything we made.. Guess what he didn't pay for either the parts in inventory that were useless.. and he didn't pay for the engineering changes.

While that scam was running the owner's cousin was taken by one of those "HHO free energy from water" scams. Went so far as to front money to the HHO scam company which then produced a slick video, then they talked him into making prototypes, and talked him into installing on in his new truck.



Company is more or less out of business now, they have maybe three employees left that aren't family members working for free.


Over the years, I've been "played" several times by employers making grandiose claims in regards to "future plans" when in fact they just needed someone to finish a order... or worse.




What I'm getting at Tony... is I can see right through you. I've seen your kind before, I know your game, and I'm on to you.



You... are not welcome here. The others are playing nice, having a bit of fun with you... but if it was MY forum I'd have deleted this malarkey and notified your IP that you are potentially running a scam.

Eventually this will catch up with you, and you'll be another footnote in internet history.

Until then... however I will continue to mock the hell out of you. :)

You do realize you are babbling
and calling me names
while you claim I am not behaving MYself.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:27 PM
Hey Tony, well I guess the people would only be harassed if they allowed themselves to be. To save you the trouble then, could you please provide the full company incorporation details, and where it is incorporated, and I'll do a search of the directors myself. Will save you the bother.

Anyway, about that statement of "zero-stall speed"? Just wondering about that?

Pete

No phone number, no email ?
who are you that I should share that with you ?

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 10:27 PM
Tony:

Don't waste time trying to bait me. Concentrate on proving your claims.

Less posting, more production. :)

PeteF
06-26-2010, 10:30 PM
The World Kiting Champion! Do you mean Ray Bethell? You have Ray Bethell designing your wing????

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:31 PM
Now this is a good looking bike - and it's for sale ($5800). Wish I had room for one more.

http://micapeak.com/winona/harley/butcher_boy.gif

This bike was built by John Stafford in Wisconsin a long time ago. I'm surprised that Don, the current owner, is offering it for sale.


No rear suspension, no fender, no headlight,
"looks good" but no susbstance.
Great birth control device though.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 10:34 PM
Yeah anyway ... about the "zero-stall speed"??


No phone number, no email ?
who are you that I should share that with you ?

Tony why are you being so aggressive? I simply asked for clarification on a couple of points made in your advertising blurb and simply the company details? Why would you start having a go at me? Are you saying the company details are a secret too?

Pete

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:36 PM
The World Kiting Champion! Do you mean Ray Bethell? You have Ray Bethell designing your wing????

Oh, so there is only one
and he is the same every year ?
Ray is great, don't get me wrong
but ray is about flying (especially multiples)
and not about designing wings.
He knows a lot
but no not Ray.
Ray is what comes to your mind ?
Geez.
It is a large sport.
lots of much younger people in it.

When the team has a design that they are proud of,
they can m come out and celebrate.
Right now I am not thinking it is ready for prime time.

dp
06-26-2010, 10:37 PM
No rear suspension, no fender, no headlight,
"looks good" but no susbstance.
Great birth control device though.

Here's another pic - the project when completed.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0W3um-7MHQA/SygJGZRoSfI/AAAAAAAABZ8/lR5cNVgvACE/s1600-h/butcherboy.jpg

Not that you would know what a completed project is.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:39 PM
Yeah anyway ... about the "zero-stall speed"??



Tony why are you being so aggressive? I simply asked for clarification on a couple of points made in your advertising blurb and simply the company details? Why would you start having a go at me? Are you saying the company details are a secret too?

Pete

I am suggesting that if I had a better idea who you were,
I might be willing to call you and talk about the team
or even have Erik, when he gets back give you a call,
but not with shadows.
No disrespect meant.
I did not mean to "go after you"
but if you read the exchanges today,
you must rightfully understand that the guard is up for this forum.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:40 PM
Here's another pic - the project when completed.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0W3um-7MHQA/SygJGZRoSfI/AAAAAAAABZ8/lR5cNVgvACE/s1600-h/butcherboy.jpg

Not that you would know what a completed project is.


See, more rude.

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 10:44 PM
See, more rude.

If we are so rude, why do you keep posting here?

I'm starting to think you are 14, maybe 15 years old.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 10:44 PM
Hey Tony, no it's ok no need to trouble yourself with calling me, you can explain the "zero-stall speed" here, after all, it's just an elaboration of what's on your site anyway, no secrets there I would think. Guess that's why you've gone to all the trouble of creating the site :)

Pete

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 10:45 PM
Tony:

Don't waste time trying to bait me. Concentrate on proving your claims.

Less posting, more production. :)

I did not start the Panther posts on this forum.
I was simply notified that they were there
and I simply have the job of making myself available
responding and answering questions.

As a result, I have been called every name imaginable today
in one rude email after another by members of this forum
only while trying to answer questions in a direct understandable
and detailed manner.

Now my patience is thin and my guard is up
and time is running out.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 10:51 PM
Gentlemen. May I suggest we let Tony have the floor for a while as I think we have a lot of good questions for him and I don't think he is being given a fair chance to respond to them. I know I have asked, what 6 times now, for an explanation on his site's claim the aircraft they are developing has "zero-stall speed" and yet he clearly hasn't had an opportunity to respond to that question.

So ... Tony, the floor is now yours my friend. Fire away with that explanation :D

dp
06-26-2010, 10:51 PM
There's an article at the New York Times that fits your situation:

"The Anosognosic’s Dilemma: Something’s Wrong but You’ll Never Know What It Is".

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 11:02 PM
and time is running out.


Do tell. :) You came here to see if you could find someone "dumb" enough to fall for your game? If you don't rustle up some "funding" by a certain point your handlers will be very disappointed?

Thruthefence
06-26-2010, 11:05 PM
Tony,Tony, Tony...........

"Recovered ? Did you dump it ?

You know some real, "airplainey" sounding words- Ultralight, stall, et al.

however;

In the REAL WORLD of flying aircraft, especially in the context of a Cessna 140, "recovering" refers to the maintenance event of removing the fabric covering of the wing, inspecting and repairing (if necessary) the underlying structure, and installing new fabric, 'doping' and painting the wing assembly.

Anyone involved in any way with ultralight aircraft construction, would be familiar with this connotation.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 11:09 PM
So ... Tony, the floor is now yours my friend. Fire away with that explanation :D

Tony? :(

BTW don't worry about the knockers, this is a great forum and lots of nice people here. You sound like you sure have got a nice shop there. Could you please post some pictures of your shop as I'm always keen to see some tool porn :D Don't go to too much trouble with the pictures, some snaps would be terrific though. I have to go do some work, that's actual work, making actual things, not computer renderings of course, but I'm real keen to get that "zero-stall speed" question answered so I'll hand around a wee bit longer.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:20 PM
Tony,Tony, Tony...........

"Recovered ? Did you dump it ?

You know some real, "airplainey" sounding words- Ultralight, stall, et al.

however;

In the REAL WORLD of flying aircraft, especially in the context of a Cessna 140, "recovering" refers to the maintenance event of removing the fabric covering of the wing, inspecting and repairing (if necessary) the underlying structure, and installing new fabric, 'doping' and painting the wing assembly.

Anyone involved in any way with ultralight aircraft construction, would be familiar with this connotation.

First I am the PR guy, not a plane fabricator.
Second, I do know that our wings are not doped and painted.
The wings are a fabric, not a fabric covering.

The only other thing I know is that they are not Kevlar (a marketing term)
but are similar in terms of strength.

RB211
06-26-2010, 11:27 PM
First I am the PR guy, not a plane fabricator.
Second, I do know that our wings are not doped and painted.
The wings are a fabric, not a fabric covering.

The only other thing I know is that they are not Kevlar (a marketing term)
but are similar in terms of strength.

So they are a composite, much like a Cirrus, Diamond, et cetra?

Please tell me, have you found a way around the UV light damaging the polymers in the composite wings? The FAA was not very nice to Cirrus in this regard.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:29 PM
Tony? :(

BTW don't worry about the knockers, this is a great forum and lots of nice people here. You sound like you sure have got a nice shop there. Could you please post some pictures of your shop as I'm always keen to see some tool porn :D Don't go to too much trouble with the pictures, some snaps would be terrific though. I have to go do some work, that's actual work, making actual things, not computer renderings of course, but I'm real keen to get that "zero-stall speed" question answered so I'll hand around a wee bit longer.

Well Peter, this is my work
and I have no idea how to do computer renderings.
As I mentioned before different parts, different shops.
Assembly will be one shop
already designed so it can do custom yet mass produced.
Hobbyists can have everything in one shop.
This is about commercial manufacturing.
Parts are made all over in associations with suppliers who make parts to our specs.
They are then sent to the assembly facility.
R&D can be a shop like you imagine.

We do plan to move the Tech transfer portion of IDS to Silicon Valley
once negotiations with the government and the location are finished.
We will then have a very nice R&D shop
for the continued development of the Panther,
especially the engines since they are a constant tweaking.

The Electric Panther gets its own shop as well.
Keeping culture apart.

Try to find a video of a duck-winged airplane stalling.
YouTube should have something.
Then you can see the rocking I mentioned.
If to tilt the nose up and power down
it stalls and falls back and then tips down.
If you keep the same profile, it will rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H50zFi11OMU

oldbikerdude37
06-26-2010, 11:32 PM
How the airplane was invented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkZzLUvuLLU

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:35 PM
So they are a composite, much like a Cirrus, Diamond, et cetra?

Please tell me, have you found a way around the UV light damaging the polymers in the composite wings? The FAA was not very nice to Cirrus in this regard.

It is more like a kite like most ultra-lights
... not a rigid heavy solid wing like kit-planes.

UV sensitivity of fabrics is not nearly the issue.

UV issues are usually resin related
and fabrics do not use resins (think kite).

In fact we often approach both DuPont and 3M for materials
and they just ask what our parameters are
and they can "cook something up" (their words).
Amazing time to be in the materials business.

I lack a little in aeronautics (although I can tap someone on the shoulder for that)
but I am a good materials guy (big interest of mine)

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:40 PM
There's an article at the New York Times that fits your situation:

"The Anosognosic’s Dilemma: Something’s Wrong but You’ll Never Know What It Is".


Lets try to keep the snarky comments to a minimum.

The Artful Bodger
06-26-2010, 11:41 PM
Tony, some pages ago, you responded to the comment I made regarding complexity of vehicles chosen by military organisations. This was not intended as a comment about your bike but rather about the purchasing policies of some military procurement departments.

Tony Botello
06-26-2010, 11:42 PM
Do tell. :) You came here to see if you could find someone "dumb" enough to fall for your game? If you don't rustle up some "funding" by a certain point your handlers will be very disappointed?


Dumb
Game
Rustle up some funding ?

Can we try to keep it civil here ?

lugnut
06-26-2010, 11:47 PM
And by the way Tony, I see that you recognized your name (pecker head) and responded. Now turn off your mommies computer and go to bed and dream about zoom-zoom motor bikes. Some day when you grow up and join the real world you might even have one:D

Liger Zero
06-26-2010, 11:49 PM
I am keeping it civil. :)

Here is an example of me not being civil:

Take your motherf*cking horse-sh*t double talk and shove it up your as*, don't come around here posting your foolish nonsense unless you intend to actually answer questions. :mad:

Of course that would be rude of me, and most likely get me banned from the forum. Wouldn't want that now would we? :p

So I keep it civil and keep my temper with you even though you are worth less than the crumbs in my toaster tray. :D

The Artful Bodger
06-26-2010, 11:52 PM
In the REAL WORLD of flying aircraft, especially in the context of a Cessna 140, "recovering" refers to the maintenance event of removing the fabric covering of the wing, inspecting and repairing (if necessary) the underlying structure, and installing new fabric, 'doping' and painting the wing assembly.

Anyone involved in any way with ultralight aircraft construction, would be familiar with this connotation.

Maybe, if a maintenance man said he had recovered an airframe that is certainly what I would understand him to have done, but if a pilot said he had been hard pressed to recover his aircraft I would think he was talking about a stall incident, if he was a glider pilot I might think he had been out with his car and glider trailer to get his aircraft from a farmer's paddock and if it was hire purchase man I might expect him to mean he had taken posession of an aircraft to protect a debt.

PeteF
06-26-2010, 11:57 PM
Well Peter, this is my work
and I have no idea how to do computer renderings.
As I mentioned before different parts, different shops.
Assembly will be one shop
already designed so it can do custom yet mass produced.
Hobbyists can have everything in one shop.
This is about commercial manufacturing.
Parts are made all over in associations with suppliers who make parts to our specs.
They are then sent to the assembly facility.
R&D can be a shop like you imagine.

We do plan to move the Tech transfer portion of IDS to Silicon Valley
once negotiations with the government and the location are finished.
We will then have a very nice R&D shop
for the continued development of the Panther,
especially the engines since they are a constant tweaking.

The Electric Panther gets its own shop as well.
Keeping culture apart.

Try to find a video of a duck-winged airplane stalling.
YouTube should have something.
Then you can see the rocking I mentioned.
If to tilt the nose up and power down
it stalls and falls back and then tips down.
If you keep the same profile, it will rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H50zFi11OMU

Thanks Tony, I am somewhat familiar with the concept, but your site doesn't say anything about the aircraft "rocking" at the point of stall, what it says is the has a "zero-stall speed".

No I don't know how to computer render either, which is a shame.


First I am the PR guy, not a plane fabricator.

Well no disrespect Tony, but I'd suggest you're actually not very good at your job. Sorry. Never mind the questions others have asked, I have asked you a few very straight forward questions that even the janitor at a company would be able to answer, never mind a PR guy. For example, what is the incorporated name of your company and where is it incorporated? Who is your boss, what is his/her name? EVERYONE in a company should know the answers to that. There shouldn't be any secrets there. You're very quick to say you have xxx on board (who is invariably somebody top of their field) but have NEVER produced even one name. I thought you were after investment?

Tony Botello
06-27-2010, 12:02 AM
Tony, some pages ago, you responded to the comment I made regarding complexity of vehicles chosen by military organisations. This was not intended as a comment about your bike but rather about the purchasing policies of some military procurement departments.


Don't get me started ...
Well ok, do.
There are two types of generals
those that do stuff and those that sit behind a desk and talk a lot.

They start with a wish list without any idea what is possible.
Not like a General is gong to ride.

So, the made a wish list and the result were several dismal failures.

Keep in mind they haven't has a bike since WW-11.
They used some of those left-overs in Korea.
Now they are on crumbly goat paths literally riding Mules.
Popping real mules.
How would you like a 20 year old kid of yours on a mule in Afghanistan ?!

So first they want a multi-fuel Diesel that can also run jp-5, jp-8 and kerosine
(what used to be known as coal oil).

Of fine.
Kawasaki KLR 650 transformed into a really shaky noisy diesel.
Liquid cooled frame that can't take it without cracks.
It is like putting b Briggs and Stratton in a bicycle frame.
Not made for each other.

Oh, and Europe chimes in with a liquid cooled diesel BMW
and put a radiator in front of each knee.

They need it really quiet
(noisy if they want, but very quiet when they need).
They wanted to carry a huge pile of crap
which if you did that on a dirt bike you are in deep trouble.

So there they are. Their list. Their results.
BTW-
We are talking specifically about the US Military here.
We are talking a lot broader than that.


A liquid cooled bike means one easily placed round and it is a paperweight.

It needed to be ....

1. air cooled

2. super quiet

3. capable of limping home even without oil in the crankcase

4. light and nimble to stay out of and get out of trouble.
(450 lbs is a lot less than any other option out there)

5. Able to be brought back is out of commission (carted)

6. able to carry a wounded soldier. (carted)

7. able to carry a lot of supplies when needed. (carted)

8. folding o you can pop it onto a truck without it taking a lot of room
or pop it onto a chopper.

9. Able to be stored away between conflicts without deteriorating.

10. Able to be located and disabled via satellite.

11. able to carry two rifles without them getting in the way
and having them easy to retrieve in a moment.

Also a few other things I can't mention here.

That was the list the desk cowboys could not come up with.
That is the list we came up with.
That is what we accomplished
that none of the others even came close to.
The others were little more than diesel powered parade bikes.

The military is run by brass star politicians and bureaucrates.
I am not picking on the US military. They are all like this.

Tony Botello
06-27-2010, 12:06 AM
And by the way Tony, I see that you recognized your name (pecker head) and responded. Now turn off your mommies computer and go to bed and dream about zoom-zoom motor bikes. Some day when you grow up and join the real world you might even have one:D


another childish uncalled for response that offers nothing to the discussions
and simply makes "lugnut" sound silly.