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spinrow
03-17-2010, 06:27 PM
A recent article how to make a quick change holder attracted my attention. I've never owned or seen such a device but seemed worthwhile. It appears that the only function of this tool is to set the height of the cutting tool from one holder to the next. There seems to be considerable amount of materials and labor involved to make a set. Are there other designs that are simpler and less labor intensive beside the lantern style post? Thanks Paul

EddyCurr
03-17-2010, 07:01 PM
Commercially, Aloris and Dorian make tool posts with dovetails on two
or more sides to accept holders where tools for turning/facing, boring,
knurling & ect are mounted. Numerous clones of these two designs
are available in the market - PhaseII & ect.

Another style of tool post is the DA Swiss Multifix or it clones known
generically as 40 Position Tool Holders.

.

Twmaster
03-18-2010, 03:12 AM
The idea of the quick change tool post (QCTP) is exactly as the name implies. A good unit will allow you to quickly change tools as you change operations or need to replace an insert in a holder.

Basically you take a tool, whether an HSS bit, carbide with insert, boring bar, cutoff blade etc. Put it in a holder. place holder in machine, set height. Lock the height adjustment. Now, every time you use that tool it will be exactly where you left it set.

Need to swap out an insert? No worry. Remove the holder, swap insert, put back in the lathe. It will be exactly where you set it previously.

If you've ever used a lantern style or turret type tool post you'll see just how much time is saved with a QCTP. A godsend.

Most QCTP setups require only the rotation of a handle to either (or both) swap a tool holder or reposition the post. Again, big time savers.

Cheers!

Davo J
03-18-2010, 04:47 AM
I read just the other day, that a fellow made one and cost him $60. He then found out he could have bought a set for $100. So unless you want to do it as a project to learn you may be better off buying one. The tool holders can be had for between $8-$12, you couldn't buy the steel for that unless you can get it for free.
Here is one a freind of mine made, it's called a Groz style.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/groz-qctp-coming-together-104891/
Dave

Twmaster
03-18-2010, 05:09 AM
Davo...

That's a nice looking job he's done. Thanks for the link.

I'm working on a smaller version of Andy Lofquist's MLA-23 QCTP (http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-23.html).

Not terribly expensive to buy materials to make this post. My shop is still crated up from my recent move. I really need to get busy and set the mill and lathe up.

mf205i
03-18-2010, 06:00 AM
I like a tool post style resembling a simplified version of this one http://steammachine.com/hercus/page6.html., http://members.optusnet.com.au/clear1/hercus/article1.jpg , and http://members.optusnet.com.au/clear1/hercus/article2.jpg . If you keep it simple, these are very practical and as only two critical dimensions need to be met, post OD and block ID, they are very easy to make. If you use HSS be sure to throw in 8-10 degrees or so of back rake into the tool blocks. I have been using this style of tool post for a couple of years now and they have performed perfectly. So, super easy to make and no mill is needed, rock solid performance, great part visibility, quick tool changes and I really like the ability to swing the tool to any angle I want. I made a set for a 10-inch Atlas that I got for the kids, but after testing it on my old 14 inch Monarch, it also got a post. I now share the blocks between the lathes.
I would suggest that you make your first block so that it will accept your Armstrong type holders and then add to your collection.
I have been told that if you use a 1.125” post, the system should be compatible with the commercial products available, Goggle Omni Post.
Mike

Davo J
03-18-2010, 06:04 AM
Mike,
It's looks pretty much the same but has the dovetails reversed, that push out instead of pulling in. You will have to post yours up when your finished.
Davo

Timo
03-18-2010, 07:23 AM
I bought an Aloris setup about 35 years ago, it wasnít cheap even back then, but itís probably the best investment Iíve ever made.
Tim

J Tiers
03-18-2010, 08:13 AM
A recent article how to make a quick change holder attracted my attention. I've never owned or seen such a device but seemed worthwhile. It appears that the only function of this tool is to set the height of the cutting tool from one holder to the next. There seems to be considerable amount of materials and labor involved to make a set. 9b0Are there other designs that are simpler and less labor intensive beside the lantern style post?[/b] Thanks Paul

Pay me now, or pay me later.......

Spend a fussy amount of time adjusting and re-adjusting the lantern post EVERY time you use it, OR spend a fussy amount of time making a post etc ONCE, and be able to rapidly use it, and rapidly set it to work wit, with different tools later, (or of course, spend your 'time" by paying for one).

You can also make a simple 4 sided tool post, with different sides having the correct slot for your favorite sizes of cutter, and set height-wise to put the top of the tool on-center. Then your tool grind needs to always put the edge at the top, but you can swap tools at will.

Not nearly as fast as the QCTP, but very effective, and uses just ONE lump of steel instead of at least a half dozen.

The QCTP, which I keep thinking about obtaining one of, is better for repeatability. But it does not seem to be without problems. I find the "preset" type of 4 way to be able to be adjusted very quickly to many settings, and the QCTP has not become a priority yet.

if you are using the lantern post, ouch... The first thing I did with my fisrt small lathe (a 109, of course) was to make it a block tool post.... The lantern post is best suited to a bygone slow era... It's plain ugly and outmoded, although it can be useful about once every 10 years.

vpt
03-18-2010, 10:00 AM
I built my own going off pictures on the internet. Done entirely on the atlas lathe minus the bandsaw cuts.

Not only is it nice to change out cutters but it is also much much more rigid than the lantern post.


http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7198/ebay010.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9827/ebay015b.jpg

Paul Alciatore
03-18-2010, 11:22 AM
My version of a QC post was recently published in the Feb/Mar 2010 Machinist's Workshop magazine by Village Press. It is an easier design to make as opposed to the dovetail design that is almost universally used for the commercial ones.

In my design, I had several criteria in mind, not just the repeatable height via an adjustment screw. These criteria included:

1. I wanted very good repeatability in the location of the tool when it was removed and reinstalled. My post is repeatable well within 0.001".

2. I wanted a post where the various adjustments (height, angle, position, etc.) were able to be made independently of each other. This is a great aid when setting up. While not perfect in this respect, my design does provide a great amount of this independence.

3. I wanted to be able to change tool holders rapidly, without any extra tools. By using an adjustable clamp screw, I accomplished this and added "one handed tool change" to the list. In fact, my tool change is not only one handed, but just a single motion and this is better, faster than the commercial, dovetail designs.

4. I wanted exceptional rigidity. The wrap around design of the holders achieves this as when they are clamped in place, the holder and post are like one single piece of metal. There is just no room for any play, even with the greatest of cutting forces. This is the another feature of my design that I feel is actually superior to the commercially available dovetail style holders.

I did some research before making the post and found numerous versions with round posts. The problem with most of these designs is there is no means of precisely relocating the tool if it is removed. This can be a big disadvantage if you are making a batch of identical parts because if tol changes are needed, the dial readings change when you change tools and you must stop cutting and measure for each one.

Some round post designs had keyways for this positioning, but keys must have some allowance for assembly and that translates to a few thousanths of movement in the tool tip's position. It may be possible to compensate for this by pressure on the side of the key when the holder is placed on the post, but this will take time and I wanted a method that just worked. So I hit on the idea of a flat on a round post. This provides excellent indexing action and all you need to do is slap the holder on the post and tighten it down. And with the adjustable clamp screw, this can be easily done with one hand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/EPAIII/QConSBLathe.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/EPAIII/Disassembled.jpg

To my mind, the "D" shaped post is key to making a round post holder. It takes it to a new level of functionality.

One thing I didn't mention in the article is the reason for the tall nut. A regular nut would interfere with installation and removal of the holders if one of the points was in the wrong orientation. So I used a longer nut to allow the holders to be pass freely over it.

Cost was a concern when I made this. At that time, the commercial, dovetail designs were more expensive than they are today and I did save money. Well, I traded time for money outlay. But I feel that I have a better, more rigid design and that is worth the extra effort.

gfphoto
03-18-2010, 11:29 AM
A pretty simple one. Works well. Would be nicer with a handle though. Idea is adapted if I recall from a PM post.

http://www.gfphoto.com/tool/Lathe/toolpost-holder-s.jpg

http://www.gfphoto.com/tool/Lathe/toolpost%20and%20plug%20s.jpg

I had a scrap yard disk and the beryllium copper but had to buy the holder pieces. I like making what I can even if it's not as good as what I could buy--as long as it's functional enough, which this is. I spent over $25 for enough CRS to make four holders, then messed up two--so not a really economical project considering what you can get from "overseas". After I bought the metal--which I did because several trips to the scrap yard didn't turn up any of the right size--I found a bunch of useful pieces for a couple of bucks.

And after that I turned up a DTM toolpost and holder in excellent working condition:

http://www.gfphoto.com/tool/DTM-toolpost.jpg

I'm planning to make additional holders and use this--it's really nice.

I'm lucky if I can spend an hour in the basement a couple of times a week so anything that speeds things up is good. My tools are various sizes so it's a big help to be able to precisely and quickly adjust the height without shims. I had a four position post but no height adjustment. That was better than the lantern style, but still a pain. And that really wasn't suited to round tools. The new holders will have V grooves for that.

Gary

Lew Hartswick
03-18-2010, 11:41 AM
Paul a couple qustions.
1 What is the vertical stop (for repeatability) ?
2 The "hinge" for the clamp bar. If the two screws that hold it are
tight how does the thick bar have enough "flex" to let it come loose
enough to slide. (seems to me the bar should be a bit more flexable)
and the repeatability of the depth of cut on the holders. ???
Nice ideas.
...Lew...

RobbieKnobbie
03-18-2010, 12:28 PM
I built my own going off pictures on the internet. Done entirely on the atlas lathe minus the bandsaw cuts.


http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9827/ebay015b.jpg


Wow, that's a sweet job you did. I especially like the nested handles.

Twmaster
03-18-2010, 02:03 PM
Now you folks are talking!

Nice looking collection of tool posts. Paul, thanks for posting here. I was looking at your tool post in MW just yesterday.

Funny, I also see a lot of Atlas machines in these pics. My little MLA post is going on an Atlas 618.

knudsen
03-18-2010, 02:32 PM
You guys have made some really nice tool posts!


I'm lucky if I can spend an hour in the basement a couple of times a week so anything that speeds things up is good.

That's where my need for speed comes from. As long as it doesn't require me to move faster, I'm all for it :D

I bought a tormak at LMS. Well worth it!

portlandRon
03-18-2010, 03:45 PM
Enco is running an internet special on Phase II. Just got a AXA with five tool holders for $145. with free shipping.

Twmaster
03-18-2010, 05:15 PM
Enco is running an internet special on Phase II. Just got a AXA with five tool holders for $145. with free shipping.

CDCO sells a chinese set for $78. Looks identical to the Phase II...

gearedloco
03-18-2010, 06:15 PM
[ .. ]
I have been told that if you use a 1.125” post, the system should be compatible with the commercial products available, Goggle Omni Post.
Mike

I have an Omni Post, built from a kit, on my 10" Logan. While it does work fairly well I have the feeling that it's not terribly rigid. Of course it could be the lathe itself, as it's 50+ years old and has obviously seen a lot of use.

When I built it I didn't bother with adding the notches to the base collar so it doesn't have the indexing feature. The problem is, if the notches are used, the location of the height adjusting screw becomes critical if you want all of the tool holders to index the same. This could be important in, for example, a parting tool holder and a tangential turning tool holder. In both cases, you need the holder to be at right angles to the spindle axis.

I'm thinking about building a dove-tail type setup similar to those shown, but with an indexing feature added, sort of like a real Aloris type. Do the less expensive knock-offs like the MLS or Phase II units have this feature?

-bill

edit: fix typing/spelling error(s)

vpt
03-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Wow, that's a sweet job you did. I especially like the nested handles.



The knobs on the handles I just finished off the stock that is in the chuck.


http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4874/ebay007i.jpg

Davo J
03-19-2010, 08:10 AM
Nice work guys.
Davo