PDA

View Full Version : Other Topics, Bush Family History Prescott Bush



SJorgensen
10-21-2003, 12:07 AM
I don't denounce anyone from the South, unless they advocate slavery. I don't denounce the Jews unless they create unfair trade practices or oppress the Palestinians. I don't denounce the Bush family unless they advocate the seditious views of the Skull and Bones society. Investigate on your own, and tell me if what I say next is true or not.

Prescott Bush (George Bush Sr.'s father) sold steel and substantial war material and also protected the assets of the Nazis during WWII. Our government seized the assets of several corporations run by Prescott Bush.]
http://www.infowars.com/print_prescott.htm

Prescott Bush was renown in the Skull and Bones Society in 1918 for having grave robbed the skull of Geronimo to place it on the shelves of the Skull and Bones headquarters at Yale University.

Our Presidents brother once offered the skull of a young Indian boy (who?)(In the place of geronimo's skull) to the Indian tribe to settle the matter and promise them to silence, but they didn't go for it.

There is a relationship in the Skull and Bones to the Nazi SS skull and bones symbols and several of the few accounts available of the "inner sanctum" of the Skull and Bones society mention an alter to the SS complete with swastika's.
There is also a room with stolen license plates from every state in the US with the symbolic number 322.

This wouldn't be as disturbing to me if there weren't so much death related to it, then and now. There are so many seditious leaders and so many suspicious deaths.

Operation Artichoke and many many other programs are directly related to this group and subversion and most Americans and especially the Republicans know nothing about any of it.

Even now the Republicans are trying to change the Constitution of the United States to allow a foreign born person to become the President of the United States. Their object can only be Arnold Schwarzenegger and although he admires Hitler, he hasn't even yet been a successful Governor.
AND ORINN HATCH WANTS TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
Even though he is sworn to defend it.

Spence

If there is any assertion here that anyone would like more information on, just ask me. There is much supporting evidence from disparate/unrelated sources. When you look into a true story you will find almost every source tracable right down to the facts. I've found these tracable and credible.


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 10-21-2003).]

Evan
10-21-2003, 01:12 AM
Spence,

At the risk of you losing some sleep why don't you check out this amazing web site?

www.theyrule.net (http://www.theyrule.net)

wierdscience
10-21-2003, 01:29 AM
Gee,I hope you don't drive a Ford,because if you do it might interest you that Ford never had any of its plants in Germany siezed by the Nazi's and none where siezed here either.

Did you know that Henry published and printed a complilation of articles he published over the years and titled them "The International Jew",and did you know that he even placed a copy in each new model"T' he sold for a number of years?What about that?

Or did you know that Mitsubishi made dive bombers that killed American servicemen on WWII?

Or did you know that Charles Lindberg was also "in it with Ford"?

Or did you know that liberal federal judges are breaking and have been breaking the law and the constitution for decades by "making law"

Did you know that federal judges regularly trump ballot decisions made by the people,(and no not the 2000 election,I'll explain this one more time just incase you don't get it)

Did you know that Ted Kennedy killed a young woman while driving under the influence(or so he claims)Did you know his cousin killed a girl in cold blood with a golf club?

Did you know that 67 people the Clintons knew on a first name basis died in plane crashes?(should be in Guiness)

Did you know that Al Gore smoked and I quote his best friend here"everything he could get his hands on"?

Did you know that U.S.Army tanks on loan to civilian authorities(violates posse comitatus)under the control of one Wesley Clark where involved in running through a building full of women and children at WACO?

Did you know that Janet Reno sent in paramilitary storm troopers to kidnap and send back to an oppressive communist regiem and what was he 8 year old kid,at gun point?

Did you know that Bill Clinton the president of the United States at the time was impeached for covering up crimes that he himself commited?

We could go on and on forever with this one,maybe you sould quit while your ahead?

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 10-21-2003).]

wierdscience
10-21-2003, 01:43 AM
See-

http://www.counterpunch.org/waco.html

Oh and I have literaly 1,000s more points and proof!

Forrest Addy
10-21-2003, 01:54 AM
I hate to be a party pooper but I don't think politics is a good topic for this website.

Political discussion has a way of turning into flaming contests and tons of ill will. There's plenty of political discussion message boards.

Here's one where Prescott Bush and his alleged deeds are now under discusion:

http://theoak.com/cgi-bin/pol/pol.pl?#56548

SJorgensen
10-21-2003, 02:30 AM
Hi Weird,
I have known for many years that Henry Ford was pro Nazi and also a eugenics proponent and also a white supremist. I have never owned a ford until the last 3 years. I knew Charles Lindberg respected the Nazis and warned the US Government about the aeronautical superiority of the Nazis. He was loyal to the US and flew missions against the Nazis.
I don't know of Judges breaking or making law.
I know of the evidence of Ted Kennedy’s and also his cousin’s crimes.
I don't know about the Clinton friends that died in a plane crash.
I am not surprised if Al Gore smoked pot. I hope he enjoyed it as much as I did.
I don't think Wesley Clark was involved in WACO. If he were I would have to re-evaluate my support of him.
I followed and I understand the reasoning in sending that Cuban kid back to his rightful father in Cuba. As a father it was the right thing to do in my opinion regardless of nationality.

Bill Clinton was impeached for getting a blowjob.

Weigh that against the LIES that take our nation to war. Bill Clinton's wife may have been concerned with the first issue, and the second issue concerns the wives and mothers of the hundreds of dead and injured sons and husband soldiers in our military.

I was an adamant supporter of the war as readers of this site may attest.

Iraq had nothing to do with it and doesn’t seem to have been an imminent threat to us. Afghanistan was a righteous target because of the Taliban.

Saudi Arabia was the cause of the attack on the World Trade Towers. They paid for it, and they also paid a reward to each of the families of all the attackers. These people, and the Bin Laden family and other Saudis, are the only people that were allowed to fly two military aircraft on September 12, 2001, on the specific OK of Dick Cheney (another Bonesman and Carlyle group member (oil interests)) There is more information that everyone should be prepared for.

I don’t make this stuff up. This is the real deal. I won’t commit suicide. If I die this year I hope someone picks up my torch. There are lists of suspicious suicides believe it or not. It will scare you to know, but you must know if it is the truth.

The good he attain by displacing Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden is only eclipsed by the fact that we don't know where either one of these frickin tyrants are
I also read that there were some unexplained delays in the results of the DNA tests of the supposed sons of Saddam Hussein. Is that question settled or is it not? I wouldn't be surprised if is not. It wouldn’t take this long if it was true.

Spence




[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 10-21-2003).]

Cass
10-21-2003, 04:20 AM
I agree with Forest on political stuff. All you bitter, frustrated socialists please keep it to yourselves or go on all the bull**** sites that are available such as the ones mentioned. This topic is offensive here.

Doc Nickel
10-21-2003, 06:38 AM
I heartily agree. I come here for the cameraderie and the raw technical knowledge.

Do yourself a favor- take your argument, any argument, any of you, especially one you feel strongly about (be it religion, gun control, poltics, Mac vs. PC, Ford Vs. Chevy, ad nauseum) and head over to The Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/).

Go over to the Message Boards, and fire away. Better yet, do a search on your topic first- chances are, it's already been discussed at extensive, detailed length.

The Dope is the forge by which ignorance is shaped into knowledge. It is the anvil on which stupidity wrought out of the mind, and the wheel upon which the new knowledge is honed.

Posts such as that which led off this thread, are dissected, analyzed and purified. It reads like a chain-letter Email that has a bunch of semi-true factoids connected with a bunch of wild innuendo and passed around without any real fact-checking.

Feel strongly about this? Fine. Let's see you argue it at the Dope. Best get your ducks in a row and be prepared to cite chapter and verse. An unattributed spam Email isn't a cite.

Don't want to argue it in public and in the light of reason? Then I guess you don't feel all that strongly about it. You'd rather just repeat half-truths and outright lies 'cause you don't like the person or persons they denigrate? It makes you feel better, does it?

If you can honestly say you are looking for the Truth- whether that truth is good or bad, whether it goes with or entirely against your opinions and mindset, then I very strongly suggest seeing what the Dope has to say. If it is the truth, they will say so. If it isn't, they'll tell you.

If you'd prefer to just sit back and believe it's true, for whatever reason, well, I guess that's fine too- I'm sure you can find all sorts of boards full of the ignorant who will welcome such tripe at face value. But this isn't the place for that- this board is here to promote knowledge and improve the skills of the readers. Your post does neither.

Just for example, I took it upon myself to Google "geronimo's skull". Even though a great many hits are found, a very large percentage of them use key phrases like "alledgedly" and "supposedly" and "are rumored to have" and "so we're told". Many of the rest are reprints of two editorial columns dating to before the 2000 election, and the remainder are hawking a book about the "secret" club.

Tell me, are these facts? Repetition does not make an anecdote into a fact.

Doc.

debequem
10-21-2003, 07:34 AM
I agree that we should limit the discussion to on-topic items.

For instance, if we want to talk about conspiracies, what about that guy that heard that rumor about someone finding an article written about someone that once over heard some bloke that worked for a machining coolant company? That guy claimed that they were secretly putting addictive aromatic components in the coolant. Seems the more you use it, the more you keep using it. Soon, you are out buying new machines ... Just to use even more coolant.

Anyone confirm that?

Marv

Forrest Addy
10-21-2003, 08:39 AM
Oooo! Marv has a point except I think it's either radiation from the cast iron or the tungsten fumes from hot tooling that hooks a ordinary sensible guy into this ridiculous trade. But it might be coolant. Even though I'm attracted to machine tools havingno coolant system I still brush the stuff on or squirt it from a spritz bottle.

I never tried to drink it. Hmm. A twist of lime with the Houghton's cut Max?

ibewgypsie
10-21-2003, 10:26 AM
Yeah, politics piss me off. This is not the place for it.

As a individual I have no power, If I join a group that thinks the same as I do, I am to be watched by the goverment.

Do you think even your email and phone conversations are safe? Type a few keywords.

I am a creature stuck in the political tide.
Most judges need hanged, Most politicians need a ride on a rail after being tarred and feathered. Most Americans are too stupid to even care, as long as they have beer and sit-coms to watch they would give up thier firstborn.

Of course, these are just my private views.

David..

Rustybolt
10-21-2003, 10:38 AM
Isn't this a machining board?
I know politics are discussed from time to time but more as an aside than an actual topic.
While I'm sure the nefarious dealings of the Bush ancestry are fascinating to some, here they just get in the way.
If I want to find out about the Bush family I am capable of finding what I need someplace else on the internet.
Its difficult enough digetsing all the great information here without getting sidetracked by politics.
There. I've said my piece.

crypto
10-21-2003, 12:58 PM
This is a fo-rum; one of this word's definitions is , "an assembly for the discussion of public affairs or current questions".

These addictive forums provide me with a pleasantly entertaining and informative substitute for those "lunchtime breaks" with that group of men whose company I enjoyed (most of the time) for over a quarter of a century. After all, a shop full of machine tools does not provide much in the way of camaraderie or provide the inspirational spark to new ways of performing operations. I find there is just no satisfactory substitute for the human input.

So, I say enjoy the encyclopedic wisdom of Dave "Thrud" , the shop smarts of Wierd (Gosh, I wish you would spell that correctly), the experience of Forrest, the humanity of Alistair, the mind opening comments of Evan and all the other savants, the occasionally amateurish questions of beginners that remind me of my own TOTAL trade ignorance when I began learning this trade 58 years ago.

I close with this reminiscence; Shortly after entering the big shop from the apprentice shop one of the old timers, who noticed my hesitancy to approach journeymen for advice, said to me, "kid don't be afraid to ask for advice, remember you are asking for an OPINION when you ask for advice and EVERYONE LIKES TO BE ASKED FOR THEIR OPINION!"

Happily, here we do not have to ask we can just pour out our feelings and needs. Enjoy.

Oscar

debequem
10-21-2003, 03:06 PM
Forrest,

Radiation is a good theory, but I thought that mostly impacted potential off-spring. That sounds like a genetic based conspiracy theory to me. I think the aromatic coolant theory is different.

As for the coolant itself, I wouldn't drink it. Too much too fast could be deadly. Besides, was that lime a fruit or the stuff you put on the lawn? I think the stuff for the lawn may be better.

Marv

SJorgensen
10-21-2003, 06:46 PM
I visited those links above, except for the "straight dope." I'll visit that next. I like to hear other opinions and information. Maybe they can explain to me why these things shouldn't matter to me. I have gone from supporting Bush to considering him a threat to the American Constitution and way of life and also to the rest of the world. I have decided to do my ranting where it will do some good. I am creating an email ring for my local precinct. I've contacted my county seat and I've contacted my Precinct Chair for the Democratic party. I will contact every voter in my precinct and ask them if they want to join my list. Maybe that will let me let off steam and many of you won't be forced to read it.
Those Nazis really made good machines though.

Spence


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 10-21-2003).]

debequem
10-21-2003, 07:47 PM
Spence,

I have tried to steer this topic to something a little more neutral and light hearted, but that is not working.

I applaud your activism, but I personally don't come here to rant or listen to people rant about politics or religion.

I also believe that there is a right time and a place for everything. Here, all of us are bonded by a common thread. That thread being machining. All of us make a social pledge for the good of the group (forum). My observation is that politics, just like religion, fall into the realm of subjects we just don't talk about nor should we criticize our colleagues for their views (perceived or real).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no has the right to expect it to be taken seriously.

As some of you noted, there are other web groups where such subject matter would be well received and quite appropriate. I am sure that you can find violent agreement with your point of view at one of those sites, if that is your wish.

Here, such deeds simply sow the seeds of discontent and the harmony we enjoy. Let's renew our pledge of civility and move on.

Thanks,

Marv

wierdscience
10-21-2003, 07:48 PM
Spence,I posted the reply I did to get this one simple point across,everyone including me and including you have in our past skeletons in our closets,only difference is how many are present day corpses?

Henry Ford was not a nazi and not a bedsheet bandit,but he did make some radical statements,he also had factories in Germany that where never siezed by the nazi's or bombed by us,but he also greatly contributed to the war effort in manufacturing expertise.

The point is,its not neccisarily whats in a persons past,but rather whats in their present that counts.

Rich Carlstedt
10-22-2003, 02:21 AM
Too many Cow Chips !!!
Not enough Metal Chips !

Doc Nickel
10-22-2003, 04:26 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:
As a individual I have no power, If I join a group that thinks the same as I do, I am to be watched by the goverment.</font>

Look! A black helicopter!

Talk about paranoia... The government will watch you because you joined some group? Everybody is part of some group- can the goverment watch everyone? I don't know about you, but I constantly hear stories about bigger cities not having enough police officers; not enough manpower, not enough cars, not enough radios, not enough training.

Now, instead of just going after the .001% of the population that commits crimes, think about a similar organization trying to watch everyone. Or even just 50% of them.

The government would have to hire half the nation's population in order to watch the other half. More, actually, since somebody's gonna have to add all the data up, type up the report, file the photos, or whatever. Three-quarters of the United States would have to be tasked to try and keep track of just one quarter.

Think they're gonna watch you? What makes you so special, while they were ignoring Malvo and Muhammad in DC? Or that guy that built the bomb he locked to the pizza-delivery guy? Or those guys that robbed the back in California a few years back? Or those two thugs that got into a shootout with the FBI back in '86?

You must think yourself some really special kind of subversive to attract that kind of attention.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Do you think even your email and phone conversations are safe? Type a few keywords.</font>

-I do. All the time. Do you know what a Terabyte is? That's a trillion bits of information, one byte being roughly analagous to one typed character. A terabyte is therefore roughly a trillion characters, or about a hundred thousand copies of a complete set of Encyclopaedia Brittannica.

A friend of mine is a sysadmin for a major bandwidth supplier- as in they supply places like Earthlink and other high-end ISPs. He once described to me how his... spoolers, did he call them? Some gadget I'm sure I don't understand, but six of these, each with a capacity of something like 1.2 Terabytes, were recycling (IE, filling up and feeding it back out, like a surge tank in a water supply) something like every 90 seconds.

In other words, roughly seven-point-two trillion characters were screaming through his system every... ninety... seconds.

That's enough data to fill about seven and a half million CDs every minute.

And this is just one server farm. There's something like 3,500 in the US alone, and closer to 8,000 worldwide. You and I cannot even begin to comprehend how much data moves about this planet in a day. We'd need some math so high-pitched only dogs can hear it.

And we're back to that same manpower problem: Even if the Govermnent somehow managed to record even a FRACTION of that data, who the hell is going to read it all?

And you can be well assured that no one is recording even a tiny fraction- that friend of mine used to be somewhat notorious in a Mitnick kind of way, got hired and went straight. He's the boss at the place now, and if some government type showed up and started demanding records, they better damn well have a warrant, and even then they will ONLY get the precise data they asked for, not one byte more.

And you know what? No one's ever asked. No govermnent agent has ever come to them with a warrant demanding data. He- the friend- has voluntarily turned over information of his own volition, concerning the occasional hacker attack (which is illegal, and investigated by either the FBI or the Secret Service, depending on the nature of the intrusion) but no one's ever shown up and asked for data.

Again, it's a question of scale. There's 250,000 Americans pumping out a million terabits a day- it is quite literally impossible, let me repeat that, not possible for any Government to read even a tiny fraction of it.

Search engines? Get real. A thousand news sites post so many keywords like "explosion" or "bomb" or "attack" and so forth, that the noise-to-signal ratio would render any automatically-gathered data useless. And, naturally, no E-mails, instant messages, or interoffice transmissions go through any public-access point at any time, so a search engine is useless.

Put some filter like a "Carnivore" or "Eschelon" at the server itself? Okay, but only with a warrant, and you can only collect the data you're after, not a snapshot of everything that passes through. Now, how much can you store? A RAID with a full terabyte capacity in multiple hard drives weighs about sixty pounds and costs $2,000 or more. That's to hold just sixty seconds of data at one server node. There's fourteen hundred and forty minutes in a day and 3,500-plus nodes.

You'd need well over five million terabyte-capacity RAIDs (weighing roughly 151,000 tons and costing over a billion dollars) to take just one day's "snapshot" of just what filters through US servers.

So who's gonna look through all that to find the one instance where you typed inadvertently typed "bomb" and "senator" in the same paragraph?

Then, who's gonna do it all again tomorrow?

Now then, who's gonna listen to all eight hundred million cell and landline phone calls from that same day? Audio takes considerably more electronic storage volume than raw text-based data. Want to hazard a guess how many RAIDs might be needed to record nearly a billion cell phone, land phone and fax-machine calls in a day?

Oh, and search engines don't work with audio data. Still think somebody's watching you, personally, or looking at what you typed?

Boy, you ARE paranoid.

Doc.

Forrest Addy
10-22-2003, 06:12 AM
Yeah, Doc, but THEY are still watching. Glad I got my tinfoil hat.

metal mite
10-22-2003, 07:30 AM
So you guys are all pissed off now.
I'm not because I didn't read all your crap.
What a waste of space and energy.
No sense talking about this stuff because we are all so polerised that I'n not going to listen to you, and visa/versa.
mite

Cass
10-22-2003, 09:49 AM
Socialism has been proven to be a wrong idea based on flawed logic. That realization is gradually flowing across society and the result is a lot of frustration in some people as the see ideas they have believed in go down the tubes. These people don't admit to having wrong ideas very easily or at all and they get real nasty when challenged. When society goes through a sea change as it is now doing you get extreme frustration and real hate from those types. Searching for and clinging to wild accusations and conspiracy theories is symptomatic. I am very optimistic about the future. The large majority of the generation of my kids quitely reject the failed philosophy of the Clinton type. This is the last time I will waste time looking at this topic. It is the wrong type of forum for this type of exchange as I said earlier. The moderator should remove this type of stuff in the future.

jr45acp
10-22-2003, 10:01 AM
Neil, please, please lock this thread. Far too emotional and counter productive.

------------------
John B

ibewgypsie
10-22-2003, 10:27 AM
Doc...

I tattooed skin heads, Klans Members and others considered subversive.

I was on the watch list for association. As far as I know I am not now.

You kinda sound like a ostrich with your head in a hole, Don't you watch Discovery channel. They are picking key words from cell phones routine like. If they are posting this on tele, well it must be old technology.

Paranoia is "real" if you have the facts to support your facts.

I'm done, I won't be back to this topic. If you want my response, email.

David

lynnl
10-22-2003, 12:30 PM
I agree with Oscar. All this can be entertaining and fun (if not taken too seriously). Liberal use of the 'Back' button works great for suppressing heartburn.

L Webb
10-22-2003, 12:52 PM
Great statistics Doc.

There is nothing wrong with a little paranoia. Too much of it can cause damage though.

I don't worry about somebody having a file on me. It is kind of expected due to jobs and such in the past.

My biggest concern is just to work hard and live a clean life. Then I don't have to worry about looking over my shoulder.
I'm not naive, just busy with my life.

Les

Oso
10-22-2003, 01:13 PM
I really don't care what someone's grandfather did or didn't do. I have horsethieves, murderers, highway robbers, secret society members, and bank robbers in my ancestry.
That's not to mention the somewhat older ancestors who sacked cities and slaughtered the inhabitants, and enjoyed doing it.

So what?

Lets dump this...another vote for no more damn politics.

Rustybolt
10-22-2003, 03:26 PM
Now. If he stole my wimmen, raped my livestock and broke my lathe,....thay would be another story.

spope14
10-22-2003, 04:15 PM
Oh man, another series of scare tactics, brilliant headlines, and relative bashing, and unrelated stuff to a person.....Man I deal with this stuff daily in just my local level elected position. heck, the goofballs that do not like me in the office could not find anything I did wrong - I am a boring guy - so they went after my wife, and my kids, and even her father - to get to me of course. Made up a story that MY father was a western criminal, so I moved east to aviod this - totally untrue, and my father the electroplater and police officer had a laugh about it all.

Of course, the answers to it all were ignored, so after one try, never bothered again.

My wife is a good and respected person in town, known for years, this all bothered her for a while, but she gets a laugh as well as I do now.

Did have a relative who owned slaves, yet another who was on the dias when MLK gave the "I Have a Dream" speech. Am I a slave proponent, or a freedom fighter. Neither. I am an elected local official who lives in a middle class home with a wife, 2 kids. I also teach machine shop.

Oh heck, now I am a city official, but also belong to the teachers union, used to be a part of the DeMolay, am a republican, and rent a camp site in Vermont, and own a home in New Hampshire. I am a liberal, secret organization, ultra conservative, civil union loving, free stater and live free or die trying person if all of my "affiliations" serve this right. I also spoke out against a nationally known event about to occur in our city (noted in secret code above), thus now I am a political subversive bigot - add this to my character flaws.

Yet, all I do is teach....and I also watch the big black helicopters circle the shop. I wave to the big black SUV with all the antennas across from the shop on a daily basis. I look at all thre cameras in the trees as they follow my every movement at the camp.

I speak in hushed tones to my students and keep the water running to prevent the bugs from picking up my indoctriniations such as "2A on the thread note means a common fit external thread". I know they will analyze this until THEY find out that I really meant - "the secret microfilm is hidden in the garden in the hollowed out pumpkin on the third vine to the left". I know that when I refer to Machinery's handbook, they will research the fastener specs to see how they relate to "Maos red book". Cold Rolled Steel 12L14 is really code for "Uranium 232". My students will be analyzed and questioned daily until the big THEY find out whom I am passing on the information through.

I eat all of my lecture notes.

Ok, so I digressed a bit, but all in fun, and to say, whay does it all mean? Nothing in the end, we have an election in 2004, and primaries starting. Let your actions speak in these votes.



[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 10-22-2003).]

John Stevenson
10-22-2003, 04:26 PM
Spence,
Just go play with your CNC it's far more relaxing and constructive. What's done is past.

And as for Marv's idea that they put something in the coolant to make you keep buying machines, that's all bulls#@t.
Let me tell you I have bought over 300 machines and I still keep putting coolant in so there can't be a word of truth in that.

John S.

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 10-22-2003).]

motorworks
10-22-2003, 07:38 PM
John
Not sure what they put in the coolant,but DAMM sure there is something in Tim's Coffee!!
Gone to get another!!
eddie

wierdscience
10-22-2003, 08:16 PM
Like I keep saying-much to do about nothing being worried over by paranoid old women! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

eXoticforms
10-22-2003, 10:19 PM
you have the conspiracy theory figured out there spency.

SJorgensen
10-22-2003, 10:50 PM
Go easy on me this time around John. I just brought up some things that I think every American should be aware of (like changes to the Constitution of the United States) and those are things that could be discussed or the topic could be skipped totally by those that don't want to participate. I don't try to censor anyones slight digressions from machining topics here but there are those that would. In the future I will share a link to the topic and those who would follow it would be free to express their point of view and not complain that I forced them to know of interesting things that they don't want to know where it relates to politics. I would like to say that too many voters are like sheep and don't want to talk about politics nor be made aware of corruption like the Cheney/Haliburton conflict of interest. Don't worry, be happy!

I checked out the "Straight Dope" site and was pleased to find out about Bush going AWOL for over a year and learned he lied about that and that Cecil said:

"If history judges Bush harshly--and it probably will--it won't be for screwing up as a young smart aleck, but for getting us into this damn fool war.

--CECIL ADAMS

Spence

John Stevenson
10-23-2003, 03:25 AM
Spence,
Be that as it may, when you had problems with your machine and were asking advise here I don't recollect seeing any constructive replies posted on this board from Prescott Bush, Hitler, Arnold Schwarzenegger,
Orrin Hatch or even f#~@}*g Geronimo

John S.

[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 10-23-2003).]

Doc Nickel
10-23-2003, 04:07 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ibewgypsie:
I tattooed skin heads, Klans Members and others considered subversive. I was on the watch list for association. As far as I know I am not now. </font>

-So? I've fixed cars for "skinheads", built small Harley parts for guys somewhat less savory than that, and thanks to some immense coverage on my blackpowder mortar page, I had one guy kind of hesitantly and vaguely ask if I could build him a silencer. (I told him "no", by the way.)

Even if somebody IS watching you, what are they seeing, perchance? Given the number of meth labs, fields of pot and things like cockfighting pits that go for years undetected (even though all of those require a relatively large number of people both to operate it and as customers) what makes you so special they're keeping you under 24-hour surveillance because you once gave a skinhead a "Mother" tat?


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You kinda sound like a ostrich with your head in a hole</font>

-If that's your impression. More accurately, I'm quite aware of how the World actually works. I know, for example, thgat condensation forms, given enough humidity, when hot jet turbine exhaust hits cold, moist air. Because of this, and knowing that the jets in question simply do NOT- and CANNOT- have any sort of auxilliary tank for "other chemicals", I'm not afraid of so-called "contrails" dousing our cities in some kind of bioweapon or mind-control chemical, or other supercillious nonsense.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Don't you watch Discovery channel. They are picking key words from cell phones routine like. If they are posting this on tele, well it must be old technology.</font>

-Hell, I can do that with an old Radio Shack emergency band scanner and the right crystal. Cell phone calls are nothing more than low-power microwave radio transmissions.

However, again, there are what, ten thousand individual and distinct cell-band frequencies? Each band being able to carry a couple of hundred digitally-encoded calls at the same time? Now figure that there's probably five to ten times more "bad guys" in any given town than there are cops. No one is going to bother tasking someone to monitor your calls- even if they can, and right now that means warrants and subpoenas, and they're not gonna hand those out just 'cause you once tattooed a skinhead- unless there's some kind of ongoing investigation.

Pull your head out of the sand, there's nothing to hide from! I know you like to think somebody's watching you because it makes you feel important or something, but the sad fact is, nobody cares.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Paranoia is "real" if you have the facts to support your facts.</font>

-Sure. But you have yet to provide any facts. A feeling of paranoia is a mental disorder, not a fact.

Doc.

[This message has been edited by Doc Nickel (edited 10-23-2003).]

sidneyt
10-23-2003, 07:58 AM
Your post is entirely inappropriate for this forum. It's unfortunate there is not a moderator to expunge such off topic remarks. There are numerous forums to post such rants starting with the editor of your local newspaper, although I admit that you probably would never get what you posted published. None the less, there are a number newsgroups you could try: alt.nut, alt.rant, etc

SJorgensen
10-23-2003, 07:46 PM
This topic isn't about each other or anyone who has contributed. It isn't even about those who have opinions or about people or those who like or don't like the subject matter.
People are free to believe what they will, and to know what they can know. If there are facts spoken about here that don't comport to your frame of reference then please just tune it out and move to another thread. Don't get upset at another member or get intolerant. It may someday be your opinions that people want to snuff out. This is about history. Those who don't know about it are doomed to repeat it.

Back to the Mill.

Spence

Jaymo
10-24-2003, 08:24 PM
Spence, How could you denounce anyone from the south for supporting slavery(I myself do not support it) When slavery was started by the north? Massachusetts was the first state to legalize slavery. Virginia was the first state to outlaw the slave trade.
The Confederate constitution outlawed the slave trade while at the same time, the yankees who claimed to be so interested in freeing the slaves, did not amend the US constitution do do the same.
No slaves were ever brought to the USA under the Confederate flag, something that can't be said about the US flag.
The slaves were brought here on yankee ships, European ships and black african owned ships. People have quickly forgotten that whitey didn't go to Africa and capture a bunch of free blacks, then force them onto ships to be brought here as slaves. Every slave brought out of Africa was sold to the white slave traders by BLACK African slave traders. The Arabs bought slaves this way for thousands of years yet nobody denounces them, especially not the black muslims. Nobody denounces Brazil for importing more black slaves than any other nation in the entire world, and for maintaining a system of slavery long after slavery was abolished in the US and Europe.
How about the fact that the only slaves ever actually captured into slavery by Whitey the mean old American were actually American Indians who were enslaved by the kindhearted yankees in Massachussetts starting in the 1600s, and shipped to Europe and the Caribbean.
Robert E Lee freed his slaves while Ulysses Grant kept his with some lame excuse about good help being hard to find.
New York had the second highest population of slaves, not freed slaves but owned slaves. Less than 30% of southeners owned slaves. Only about 5% of those owned more than 5.
If the blacks were being so mistreated by the southeners, then why didn't they revolt or run away when all the able bodied men were away fighting a war? Why did the vast majority of them refuse to leave even after their yankee "liberators" told them they were free to do so? Why did the Emancipation Proclamation free only the slaves in the South and not those in the north? Why did Lincoln promote to general, yankee officers who knowingly allowed their troops to steal from and rape both white and black women in the south? One of those officers had been court martialed only days before Lincoln promoted him to general.
You see, you can't say a damned thing about us without pointing your finger at yourself because the yankees were guilty of far more atrocities against the blacks than we could have ever attempted.

Or maybe the fact that yankee prisoners in confederate prison camps were fed the exact same rations as their captors, whereas confederate POWs were fed only food that had spoiled and was no longer fit for human consumption.
Perhaps the fact that black soldiers in the Union army were only paid half wages while black Confederates were paid full wages.

All it takes is to research the actual US and CS government documents, as opposed to the Bull**** that's printed in the "history" books all printed and published in New England.

wierdscience
10-24-2003, 09:22 PM
Jaymo,I see you disagree with the propaganda about the war of northern agression,I was reading about it the otherday,seems the north only had one black rifle corp. and it was commanded by a white officer,while the south had no fewer than 26 commissioned black officers,funny ain't it.

I was also interested to learn that during the war there where black thats right black plantation owners who formed and equiped their own malitias to fight not for the north but rather the south.

I think its a shame that the propaganda tells people that the war was fought over slavery alone and not for the core issue which was over a states right to home rule and not by a central federal government,an issue that still is unresolved to this day.

It really ticks me off to hear people degrade the citizens of my state as being racist while the level of racisim is much higher elsewhere,nobody ever talkes about Yonkers,or Watts out west.

SJorgensen
10-26-2003, 02:46 AM
Jaymo and Weird,
Isn't the original subject far enough from machining for you? You know that almost everything you wrote about slavery in the South doesn't comport to what I was taught or have learned. It smacks of "revisionist history." The way you guys explain it slavery sounds like a pretty good deal and the slavers were great guys. However I would like to research about the 26 Black Commissioned officers and the Black plantation owner. Do you have any names? Were the officers considered equal to the white officers? Were they paid the same commission? Were there any Black heroes in the south? I'm just curious since you mentioned it, and I'm not sure about it. If you really wanted to point to the first slavers on the continent you'd have to go way back before our nation was started. The Spanish used to venture into my state of Utah and take young Indians into slavery. Anyway that is another topic and I've had enough complaints from people here; those who don't like anyone to discuss anything that has anything controversial in it. If those with that view complain loud enough, we will all be prevented from discussing anything but milk toast topics. I did once ask Neil to start a forum for these "off topic" subjects but he hasn't done it yet. That's where I'll leave it for now, lest anyone be offended by my nonconforming views.
I do have plenty of interest in metalwork as many of you know. It’s just that there are other things that interest me and I do respect the member’s opinions on these other topics as well, regardless of whether they agree with mine or not.

Spence

Oso
10-26-2003, 09:44 AM
One word...Andersonville

Jaymo
10-26-2003, 07:13 PM
Actually, OSO, If you check the statistics, Andersonville was no worse than any of the Union prisons. The Confederate guards of Andersonville were starving as were the prisoners.The Union blockades were to blame for the conditions in that prison. The CS government didn't even have enough food for the guards there, yet they made sure the prisoners were treated fairly. The guards at Andersonville didn't receive any rations that the prisoners didn't get. The documented fact is that the South fought honorably and the North did not.
The South NEVER targeted civilians. The North REGULARLY targeted civilians. Everything's there to be researched if you take the time to look for the actual facts, instead of the hatespeak we've been fed all our lives. I grew up believing the "history" books we learned in school. Then one day my wife bought for me an interesting book. I thought at first that what was told in it couldn't possibly be correct. Then I looked into it for myself. Turns out the book was 100% correct.Everything I mention comes from the actual US and CS government documents of the day.
The only "revisionist" history here is the history we've been taught in school about the "Civil War" and the years before and after.
I've got one word for you,"Sherman."
What he did would have been considered war crimes and atrocities if they had been committed by anyone other than the US military.
I'm sorry you and Spence don't know a damned thing about the actual history of our country circa 1840-1880 except for the revisionist BS and anti southern propaganda speewed by the "history" books of the invaders. It is indeed a shame when people follow like sheep instead of researching past the propaganda.

wierdscience
10-26-2003, 08:19 PM
Spence,you have spent this entire post trying to convince us that the Bush's are some kinda of monsters,now your shocked that maybe what you learned in school may not be the truth,well I hate to break it to you but it ain't nessicarily so,ever hear the saying that history is written by the victor?

Liberals,I love liberals they always like to re-write history-so long as its their version.

My own family history includes people on both sides of the civil war,and you know what,nothing was ever mentioned about slavery in my family history,why because they didn't fight to free or keep slaves.

Now think about this,my ancestors where poor and white,now why would they go off and fight a war on behalf of some filthy rich slave owners?

Oso
10-27-2003, 12:21 AM
Jaymo, be ashamed....I have not flamed anyone.
I have now been called ignorant and a sheep. Thank you not. My ethnic background is not one to accept such descriptions tamely, so rather than accept an angry state over them I will simply leave.

I suggest you do not make assumptions as to what ANYONE knows or does not know...wants to know or does not.

I will not respond to any further bits of whatever that was on this thread.

I think you unnderstood the original one word, as well as these words also, in context. it is an interesting picture, but not one to my taste.

Evan
10-27-2003, 01:13 AM
Y'all have had your fun. How 'bout shut'in this down 'till the next 'lection? That should be interesting...

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 10-27-2003).]

wierdscience
10-27-2003, 08:45 AM
Geez,you know I'm fine until somebody else starts it! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

docsteve66
10-30-2003, 10:08 PM
I've a collection of books, written by union and confederate, at the time the disputes were taking place between North and South. Jaymo and Weird's versions of history conform to facts as written at the time.

I went to school in California and Louisiana and mississippi (plus quite a few other states). The stuff i had to re-regurgitate to pass tests differed greatly depending on the state I was in. Later I compared what i was taught to documents written at the time (1840-1880 are good numbers). California taught a false version, Mississippi more nearly conformed to facts.

It should be pointed out that NO confederate was tried for treason or other high crimes- the courts would probably have ruled Secession to be legal. Those who "went south" were released by the military, honorably.

Andersonville? It is a matter of lengthy record that the south wished to exchange prisoners- they (south) could not feed them nor care for them. Lincoln and Grant refused- the feeling was that the north had plenty men in reserve, the south was hurting because they had few men. So exchanging would have helped south more than North. The death rate at Andersonville was LESS than that at Belle Island and many other northern prison camps. This despite the fact that feeding the prisoners was a great burden to the south and of little consequence to the North. Check into the treatment of southern prisoners at Rock Island, Bellvue and other Northern camps.

No spence, you are the one who has been exposed, all your life to "revisionist " history.

BTW- slavery was legal (and practiced) in all the states until well after Lincoln's death (unless the state itself outlawed it). Slavery was replaced by crueler systems in both the north and south. We become worried when joblessness reaches 10 per cent. The south had a high portion of the population as slaves, what was to be done with them?

I know none of the above will sway you spence- after all what I say is disregarded because I have a "racially biased" back ground (right?). How can you square that with your initial statement about southerners, I damn sure despise slavery- to a "master" or to a government. But because some think I am from south I am considered biased. Fact is my Texas family split and fought each other- the wounds had not healed when I was a child (my father was from the pro union side).

BTW- one reason we fought Japan was because so many Americans in the 1930's were willing to let Hitler win if he could. Sad but true. There was little popular support in the USA for interceding in the european. war. We kind of forced Japan to start the war- and I am not saying Japan was a decent country. They had committed atrocities deserving of any punishment they received. But thats another discussion entirely.

History is a constantly changing thing- all depends on who wants to prove what. And big lies ARE easier to swallow in the long run.

SJorgensen
10-30-2003, 10:49 PM
I admit that I can't accept some of the "facts" put forth here recently. I've asked for something with some meat in it, like one name of a Black commissioned officer in the Confederate Army. I'd like to know the name of a Black slave owner. I don't doubt that there might be certain exceptions in the history of the South, but I don't think it changes the real texture of the history of the South. Even if some Blacks fought in the Confederate Army it proves little. People raised in slavery can be compelled into warfare the same as they were compelled in daily life. I have trouble accepting that the "superior" Southern white Officer would accept having a Black man as an equal. If I don't understand the Southern attitude then I'd like some more information.
I've seen the signs "white only" below the Macon County Line even in 1984. My eyes were opened.
Anyway I don't want to demonize anyone but I think people should know what the attitudes are of people in different areas before they visit themselves and find a bunch of people who don't think that certain other people should ask a "white chick" for a date. There are still lots of fresh ropes around. My great uncle was a prosecuting attorney in Price, Utah. There was a lynching there of a man named Robert Marshal by the KKK. No one in the community would step forth to say who was involved, and the whole community was involved. 100 witnesses were called and none would testify. Anyway these things sicken me and I would love to quote what my Uncle said at the time about the community and their place in history. You still need to know where you can travel (if you aren't white) in the USA. Those that object to what I've said can now take it up with Colin Powell. I am proud of that. I also trusted C Powell but I'm not so sure now.
Those problems aren't what bother me now. Bush scrapping the anti-proliferation treaties by deploying tactical nuclear weapons is a serious thing. His plan to "privatize" air-traffic control is another serious thing (as a pilot, and a member of the flying public I am concerned) there must be at least a dozen other really messed up things that Bush is doing. I'll take it elsewhere though because few want to hear about it on this forum.

Spence


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 10-31-2003).]

Evan
10-30-2003, 10:51 PM
I know! It's Halloween and Frankenstein's Monster is walking again. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

SJorgensen
10-31-2003, 01:37 AM
Not really. Just me. An honest white guy named Spencer Jorgensen.

Tell me something that I can research and then maybe I'll change my point of view. Other than that, opinions are like assholes; everyone has one.

Spence

Evan
10-31-2003, 01:52 AM
I mean this thread, not you.

dvideo
10-31-2003, 02:12 AM
I have family buried in Andersonville. I had family on both sides of the whole rather pointed Civil War discussion. The whole issue was decided in 1865. Carrying out that policy seems to have taken a bit longer.

The issue resolved then was in favor of the liberty of all Americans. That is really the issue swirling about Spence now at this time, isn't it?

To get on topic - and I really mean on topic - is that once again, personal liberties are being erroded - like Palmer Raids in the early 1900s. What was considered patriotic just a few years ago will get you tossed out of school today. Even expressing your opinions is grounds for arrest and certainly repression. I have listened to decent people on this - and other - boards talk about the metal items they create with real fear in their words. Not for anything they actually do, but for the chance that an ATF agent or other "security" boff might look and decide to toss them in the can. Or for what someone else might interpret what they do.

Listening to the Canadians talk has been an eye opener, as well.

Reductions of individual liberty is affecting what we can make and do - via machining or anything else. So if that is the real issue, then let's discuss it.

Jerry

CompositeEngr
10-31-2003, 04:05 AM
[I've seen the signs "white only" below the Macon County Line even in 1984. My eyes were opened]

Black people don't get treated any better in the north now. Don't know why people call the southerners racist.

The idea that the Union army went south to free the slaves is ludicrous. The Civil War was caused by an economic power struggle between a mostly industrialized north and a largely agricultural south. The northern states' populations were increasing, while the south was declining.
The north had previously tried to make the south into a market for manufactured goods through tariffs imposed on European goods, and wanted to undermine the southern economy by restricting slavery. The moral issue of owning another human as property was secondary at the time.
After the Civil War, the north continued to oppress the south for many years, and the stigma of being a Southerner exists to this day.

dhammer
10-31-2003, 08:20 AM
I agree with CompositeEngr, the Civil War was an economic struggle. The call to "free the slaves" was the moral justification the industrialized north used to justify a horrible war. The living conditions of the poor, both black and white, were horrendous. How the rich on both sides of the Mason Dixon line got the poor to fight each other is beyond me. In the hundred or more years since the Civil War we haven't learned a thing.. someone waves the flag, plays a few patriotic songs and we kill each other.

docsteve66
10-31-2003, 08:05 PM
Not for any one excepting Spence- and it is long and repetitive and tongue in cheek. I apologize for the length and band width- but you are all wanred http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif.


Spence: I hoped some one else would answer your questions- There are several knowledgeable persons who have replied and could provide a balanced answer.

Rumor had it that General P.T. Beauregard was black.There is you "one black commissioned oficer". P T B was unhappy (maybe justifiably) that Robert Lee was given control of the Army of Virgina. Like Gentlemen every where PTB seems not to have denied or confirmed the allegations.

So far as the name of a black slave owner- consult the census records of 1860, I will not do your racist statistics gathering for you. It is interesting to look at ALL the states though. Also note (if you are willing to look at all) the number of non-slave black merchants and families in the south. Might even enumerate the Northern Slaves and free families- the subject bores me. University of Mary land has collated many of the statistics. It is an easy google search.

You should remember that accepting Negro troops was not something the South was proud of, so I guess they received little recognition plus it was late in the war before the central confederate lawmakers approved the recruitment of blacks. . The Confederate congress approved recruiting Blacks in March 1865. Rules were : all volunteers, if slave- the master must also approve. Quota were LIMITED to no more than 25 per cent of male slave population between ages 18 and 45, the Negroes were to receive same pay, rations, and clothing as the the whites, no mention of emancipation (as enticement or reward- just serve your country as the others did). Several (opposed to Black soldiers), argued that if slaves will make good soldiers then the whole theory of slavery was wrong, that if the south gained independence as even partial result of slaves efforts it would be a calamity. Lincoln himself stated that the advantage to the NOrth of Southern Negroes in the army was that work at home would not be done and that it showed the south was scraping the "bottom of the barrel" and the end was near. Mention of at least one black troop parading in Richmond is made. The war ended in mid 1865, so there was little time to equip and train them for duty. The North abused both black and white- one of the few examples of true equality. The black did not look on the Northern troops as Friends- for good reason. THEY DID CONSIDER Lincoln as friend who promised 40 acres and a mule and JUBILEE!!!!!. (Jubilee was no more work, the white man would have to support them-nuff said in light of recent 40 years- excepting now its middle class whites, Blacks who labor to support the persons- and damn sure not all black in that group- who are enjoying jubilee).

about 180,000 blacks served the union.!134,000 of those came from occupied confederate states. Northern slaves were mainly substitutes for their masters who could thus avoid draft. So far as I know, the officers of both sides were white (not being a racist, I never really counted noses by color). I think the first West point graduate, black , known to be black (one drop of "black blood was need)was after the civil war end.

When you lose a war, you don't really pay much attention to the losers. My Great Grand father was never mentioned respectfully by his children- he lost, both the war and his arm. Not a figure to be admired in the eyes of his kids i guess. With that in mind, why would you list the non-accomplishments of the black troops excepting to revise history?

Look at the ratios of black white officers before WWll. And only the efforts of the Roosevelt's changed it during WWll.

From todays vantage point, we treated the blacks, irish, chinese and hispanics poorly. But at the time, ALL poor were treated about the same. Go read "Harpers" magazine in the 1850's and consider how the kids in New York were worked- long days small pay. One BIG misconception was that ALL blacks were slaves. Not so- and many of those blacks wielded power and had wealth. Best known example is New Orleans La. Also slaves often had jobs where they saved a portion of their wages for their own use. Plantations required skilled labor- machinist and blacksmiths even. Those skills were often (even usually) held by blacks. The very best eye opener I have ever read is by Thomas Sowell- Title has the word "culture" plus more words. Thick book and blacks are seldom mentioned. He points out that the poor (of all races) were mistreated until they gained power. It is a good read.

I gather the people back then (especially in the south) considered slaves inferior. Blacks (free) were often respected and held in esteem. Only when slaves were free were the successful Blacks grouped into the Black population and all considered as a block. The south (black and white) were poverty stricken when the war ended. Reconstruction, with its land grabs, carpet baggers and "Freedman's Bureau" raped the south. I is not nice, but it is understandable, that the poor ex-slave bore the brunt for many years of the pillage the middle class south endured. The whole issue is much more poor against not poor than black against white..

You revisionist should remember that the moving finger writes and, having written, moves on. And you your tears and wit can not change a line of it. Why denigrate the descendants? The British (if any of the originals exist today) would have good cause to complain of the invaders from your home country (judging from your name and demeanor) http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif. I have no objection to listing the wrongs of history- but expressing outrage or shock is for kids or immature adults. The past is useful for plotting a course to the future- does no good to look at the past and shed tears about where you are time should move on.. The idea of punishment for ancestors sins opens up a box we better not touch.

So far as seeing white only signs in 1984: I suspect they were kept up by agitators or for amusement or by blacks or on private property. I once considered closing a rest room that had once been "black only". A delegation of blacks asked me to not do so. They preferred to keep it open. Blacks and whites could use either room and there was not even a door between. Some men used the others races facilities, but most did not. The blacks explained to me that they just wanted to be able to use the whites area, but they felt I was FORCING them to do so. So an ignorant person would see a segregated toilet/shower in a single room when in fact it was mutually acceptable to the majority of both races. It was offensive to some and I really needed the spaces for other purposes- so us "liberal types" wanted the place closed- a case of same path to different goals?

I worked in New Jersey/New york a while. I was shocked to see that men who worked side by side for years could not accept that Polish, Jewish, Portuguese, and blacks etc were really human. Some love people as a race and hate them as individuals- some hate people as a race and love them as individuals. The fault is most apparent when easily identifiable groups view each other as threats.

You say "I admit that I can't accept some of the "facts" put forth here recently. I've asked for something with some meat in it, like one name of a Black commissioned officer in the Confederate Army." DONE! "I'd like to know the name of a Black slave owner." SOURCE GIVEN! "I don't doubt that there might be certain exceptions in the history of the South, but I don't think it changes the real texture of the history of the South. Even if some Blacks fought in the Confederate Army it proves little." The south WANTED to forget the war, read the 14th amendment to US Constitution, sections 2, 3, 4 and 5. Read about Re-construction and Carpetbaggers and Freedman's bureau to get an idea about why the south was so poor and remains so even today. A little knowledge in those areas may soften your racist attitude about the events of those long ago years. Then, Check your civil rights laws of the 1960's. The North has not accepted surrender yet. The Kennedy's want humiliation
.
Then you go on: "People raised in slavery can be compelled into warfare the same as they were compelled in daily life. I have trouble accepting that the "superior" Southern white Officer would accept having a Black man as an equal." Hells bells man- what officer (until he matures) accepts ANY ONE as his equal. He bitches about those above and below him. There is very little equality in this world- any way- as cited above- no negro was compelled to serve. And I remember the california kids (were you one?) protesting having to go to war and take a bath. The real protesters (who I kind of admired) went to Canada. So you are right- whats the point?


THen you go on: "If I don't understand the Southern attitude then I'd like some more information." Spence- I can argue both sides of the issues. And I can make the North or the south look good based on facts. Jaymo and wierd could too i think. Man who can argue only one side of a question (and not well) is ignorant (not stupid you note). I have given you sucroses. You can interpret them as you please. But at least you should be able to see that the issue is not black and white- or at least you can understand and discuss calmly and logically the arguments you now are only emotionally stating.

"I've seen the signs "white only" below the Macon County Line even in 1984. My eyes were opened." Can you honestly say, in 1984, those signs were enforced by whites?

THen : "Anyway I don't want to demonize anyone but I think people should know what the attitudes are of people in different areas before they visit themselves and find a bunch of people who don't think that certain other people should ask a "white chick" for a date." SPence you live in dream world- I see lots of white girls/ black men every day. and mixed race kids. Surely they were not raped? I thin k they were asked and accepted. You mention rope. Who uses rope any more?- drag them behind a truck, shoot em at a bar, bury them under a dam, load with with chains and hold a integrated swimming party!.

I have no comment on this one- its your story and you stick by it: "My great uncle was a prosecuting attorney in Price, Utah. There was a lynching there of a man named Robert Marshal by the KKK. No one in the community would step forth to say who was involved, and the whole community was involved. 100 witnesses were called and none would testify. Anyway these things sicken me and I would love to quote what my Uncle said at the time about the community and their place in history." Feel free to quote- we Shed's dad can wain him. the rest of us can take it- don't spare us! Haul out your dogs and let them run!!!!

I love this one " You still need to know where you can travel (if you aren't white) in the USA." In almost every state, I can take you to many many places more where a white man best not go than you can take me where a black man can not go. And mostly decent People of either race avoid those places. I used to go ( in greenville Mississippi) to the black VFW with a buddy. I would never have dared go there alone. so it works both ways- and even today (maybe more so to day than fifty years ago). Fifty years ago a black would have been refused permission to enter or treated badly- and a white in a black place may have been killed. Today the white man is still likely to be kicked out or killed and the Black may just be shunned - "shunning" is still a persons right. A person notice- not a business right.

" Those that object to what I've said can now take it up with Colin Powell. I am proud of that. I also trusted C Powell but I'm not so sure now." WTF do you trust?

"Those problems aren't what bother me now. Bush scrapping the anti-proliferation treaties by deploying tactical nuclear weapons is a serious thing. His plan to "privatize" air-traffic control is another serious thing (as a pilot, and a member of the flying public I am concerned) there must be at least a dozen other really messed up things that Bush is doing. I'll take it elsewhere though because few want to hear about it on this forum." SPENCE_ you play an illogical game- you insult us with opinions, get offended and snippy when you are rebutted, Have you considered that you appear to be a bigot to ME? You argue that you must be proved wrong or you are right http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif. Problem is YOU try to define right and wrong in your terms- unable to see another's view point.

Even if EVERY thing you say is true- what do you expect to gain by discussing it it? Admiration for your 1960's point of view? A revolt lead by you?

Spence in all sincerity, and most of the above is just bull from me yanking your chain in jest (but with facts), I think you should step back, re-group and hunt for some good.
Peace
Steve
BTW I too worry about Dynasties- Bush family , kennedy and others crop up too often in history with power. Not all are elected but they do wield power and influence.

SJorgensen
10-31-2003, 09:59 PM
Thank you Steve,

I really appreciate your post. I think that what I liked about it best was that it didn't generally turn from the subjects at hand, to rail against me personally. That is why I like the people on this site. Even those with different views than mine, to discuss and inform is the goal. I hope you all know that none of my views are focused on anyone personally.

I'll read your post a few more times and if I have any questions or retorts I'll post again.

Thanks again,

Spence

SJorgensen
11-01-2003, 11:24 PM
Sorry Doc,
I don't think General P.T. Beauregard serves your first point very well. So far it looks like his lineage is Welsh and French and more tracable than most so if you want to claim he was one of the South's black officers that is up to you.
http://www.grunts.net/wars/19thcentury/civil/beauregard.jpg
http://lookinside2-images.amazon.com/Qffs+v35leonzaRt4bFetW9EOY/KCp+Qk4NXhC0wy0SBpi3l+nS6Ck43tDTMauMx
This site sheds some light on the subject and confirms point #2; That there were some free blacks that owned slaves.
http://www2.netdoor.com/~jgh/mobile.html
Spence

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 11-02-2003).]

wierdscience
11-03-2003, 08:11 PM
Spence,I would like to point out that in my region(south Mississippi/New Orleans)that it not nessicarily as simple as black and white.

We also have Creole,Cajun,Hatian,Jamacian,West African and a few others,that makes it possible for a person to look white but be from black heritage.

I don't exactly remeber the details,but it seems like Gen.Beuregard was the product of a French/black/Welsch heritage,or it maybe a different Gen.

But anyway them some of them Creole ladies sure are fine look'in,got a little cream in their coffee http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

docsteve66
11-03-2003, 10:06 PM
Most of you best hit the next topic button now- You done been warned !!

Thanks wierd one http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif. But in the case of PTB, I have a story. But first to Spence.


Spence: I assume you to be honest & searching for truth. I was taught, by father, that most of black mens troubles were the result of white mans actions, his teachings were re-enforced by my "schooling". When I started to read both pro and con I became confused, then I read stuff written way back when... . I am still confused- any honest man would be. I decided I had been manipulated by all sides. I found and find great joy when my cherished beliefs are found to be false. Not that i find pleasure in being wrong, but I do try to find out how much more false stuff, based on false hoods I have believed/been taught. I wind up at least being able to argue both side of a question WITH CONVICTION. Two sayings 1. "consistency is a virtue of fools" , 2." "It is the things you know that ain't so that gets you in trouble."

If you just want to win arguments then lets drop this thread- the subject has been beat over by me too many times. I have real scars from fights when I tried to express my teachings about southern history to the boys in the mississippi delta. Later on I learned both they and I were misinformed in the basics.
So read on: if i am wrong say so- but I have no interest in swaying you. just want you to check things out as I did. You prove me wrong, I will try to adopt your new facts with out rancor. I only ask you do the same.

First: PTB may have not had a drop of black blood- no one can ever know. But -as I said- he WAS rumored to have (and thats my story for weird. Rumor (if believed) carries the weight of fact most times. So IF PRB was thought to be black, he was black, he would have never risen in the society you think existed. Simple as that.

You are in a logical mess. Your argument boils down to : 1.The South was bigoted. 2. in a bigoted society, No black could rise to rank of general. 3. PTB was a general.
4 therefore he was white. (then you hunt FOR proof he was white)
Or to be more general: no black man could be commissioned, any man who was commissioned was there fore white. There fore no matter how black he looks the commissioned officer is white.

You now admit "some" s;ave holders were black. You base that on a link that is not exactly neutral, biased against the confederacy but not an out and out lie. Lets assume it to be unbiased though. Now think: If there was a militia company of black slave holders, there must have been more black slave holders that did not join the local bunch. So there are more than the black slave holders mentioned who were black slavers. Those Black slavers had to buy uniforms, books, rent buildings and all the other things needed to do what they did. That kind of suggests a society that you deny existed. Kind of makes a man wonder how much more stuff was not presented (note: I did not say hidden). When both sides of a deal are not known , it is hard to know why either dealer acted as they did. Do some more digging, friend. You may approach the truth- I feel I never have found "THE" truth- so inform me when you figure it out YOURSELF. Start from ground zero and try to figure out what REALLY happened. I lost interest in the whole matter. I like Fred Douglass, think Uncle Toms Cabin is crap. Lincoln was due for impeachment had he not been killed (for involvement in Rail road profits not for misconduct in the war.). Jefferson Davis was a crooked fool, Lee was too much like Jimmy Carter (an honest fool who did great harm). Given time, slavery was sure to go, the slavers were more compassionate than the conqueror's. Trash will stay trash as long as possible.

Now to PTB and his blackness. My great grandfather at age 28 (if memory serves- I have the records if any of his service is questioned and proof is needed, I can quote dates and places)enlisted in a "rifle Company". He was a slaver owner, 6 slaves per 1860 census. He enlisted as a private in March 1861, remained a private until he lost an arm in 1865. He was a member of the 18th mississippi under longstreet who was under Lee. As a "states rights" confederate his term of enlistment was like 6 months. He enlisted in march 1861. Shortly after he enlisted the confederate government extended ALL enlistments were extended for the duration. So much for states rights. He and his unit fought in the major battles from Manassas, to Gettysburg, Maryes heights, Petersburg, both Wilderness battles.

Hang on Spence, the rambling has a point.

Many militia units held on to their "unofficial" titles (the New Orleans Zouves, for example). Their official title was Company H, 18th mississippi. They had fights , so I read in one book, with other units about their original title. The "H" company was called a bunch off Nigger lovers" because they adopted the name "Beauregard's Rifles" when they were state militia. They probably called themselves "Beauregard's rifles" because PTB kind of touched off the war. He
was the man who could have prevented the firing on Fort Sumter. He instead provoked the action. He was a hero!!!!. So far as I know, PTB was a little "game Cock" type. HIS rumored blackness did not hurt HIM, But to admire PTB was to be less than a confederate (later on). So he serves MY point very well-it matters not what you are in this world, it is the name you get tagged with. PTB was tagged (by some at least) as black. A good "black" man could get ahead if he was not held back, once on the road to success, the discrimination falters- unless you weakens.

On the subject of ancestry- my black friends used to say (about a new baby) "poppa glows, momma knows (whispered "MAYBE"). I figure I may have some most any kind of person in my history. I have traveled a lot of the world. dropped my jeans many times and with many races. Maybe I have added to diversity- I hope so because I am just no damn good excepting to pass on some good genes, I hope.

Weired- you are so very right about it not being black and white ANYWHERE. I near took a young gal to wife in the Caribbean. A pretty red head, skin white as mine. She informed me that i was best white man she ever knew, but she would stay in the Cayman islands. Wanted no part of the USA. That was in 1961 (Bay of Pigs time for me). She would be 70 now, and I hope she did well. So far as I know, we had no offspring- but she tried- and NOT to change her lot in life. She just wanted a blond blue eyed girl for a baby.

Wierd: Its a pity a man must select one gal from all the beauties out there. Better system would be to acknowledge that women want a good stable man to raise a family with, but they want kids that can pass on their (mamma's) genes to future generations. So gals do often shop around, PTB had good genes, regardless of where he got them.

Peace all folks- and Weird- I hope to buy you a cup of coffee one day. same to you Spence.
Steve

MacGuyver
11-03-2003, 11:46 PM
damn it's deep in here! It seems the proliferation and extended livelihood of B.S. requires those to scoop it and those to rescoop.

SJorgensen
11-05-2003, 12:32 AM
Hi Doc,
I'm not bored by Civil War history. But my father is much more of a Civil War buff than I am, and his library is pretty extensive. I've only read a small amount. I was born in 1962 and I have little reason to feel strongly about that history of the Civil War either way. That being said, I have had some close friends from older generations from the south that have had some major conflictions over race. I gleaned from my discussions and my experiences with those gentlemen that there is a real and an ingrained racial point of view (in general) in older generations in the southern populations that is much less prevalent in the rest of the country today.
In regard to General Beaurgard, it seems to me that when he came up against General Lee politically, he was slandered in the most provincially effective manner. This isn't unusual at all. If you were a German in Berlin in 1940 and someone wanted to shut you down they would just pass a rumor that you had some "Jewish" blood in your ancestry. Still it rings a little strange to me when a religion is equated to genetic profiles. To those who were slandering it mattered very little whether they were objecting to the person’s genetics or to their philosophy. In the South I think it was similar in the aspect that people are discriminated against if they are Negro or if they have any suggestion of it, real or imagined and they can also be discriminated against if they are sympathetic to Negroes and become labeled a nigger lover. Of course screwing a young black slave women discreetly wouldn't cause a white man to be labeled a nigger lover, but sympathizing with any black person's cause, certainly would.
I liked your description of my logical mess. It is like a common question on IQ tests. If all Clicks are Clacks, and all Clacks are Snacks, are all Clicks Snacks?
In the first instance I agree that this is my view. No Black could rise to the rank of General; if he was a General then he must be white.
Interestingly enough there were a number of Jews that rose in the ranks among the Nazis, however they were very discreet and very lucky because they would likely have been summarily executed had they been found out as Jews. This example creates an exception to the logical rule, which was not intended by the controlling system.
About whether or not free blacks that owned slaves, could rent building or own buildings or buy uniforms or organize to fight for the South, I have no opinion but it seems plausible. Reality has a number of exceptions that is only limited by the number of people and events, and it never totally fits one view. That being said it is more like circumstantial evidence. However anyone who knows about circumstantial evidence knows that at some point circumstantial evidence becomes incontrovertible, because you can't argue that the circumstances were always against you in every case. A true picture develops by the preponderance of evidence.
I'm glad that in the United States, race doesn't (in law if not reality) limit a person in the United States.
Thank you for letting me express my viewpoint.

Spence
PS: This sidetrack hasn't kept me from looking deeper into the topics that I started here about G.W. Bush and his family. It is a rich and easy picture to put together. Just like circumstantial evidence, it has a weight all its own, that gives you a picture that becomes impossible to deny. You may deny one circumstance, you may deny two and you may deny three or more, but at some point it breaks credulity even among Republicans.


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 11-05-2003).]

Hellbender
11-05-2003, 10:02 AM
Never mind.....

[This message has been edited by Hellbender (edited 11-05-2003).]

docsteve66
11-05-2003, 03:49 PM
Spence: IMHO, there were at least three 1960's souths "souths" discussed today (1930 to 2003).

1. the slavers well described in "uncle Tom's Cabin" and by post 1960's historians. That society is a product of people wanting to make over society.

2. More important and useful to those who believe in example 1, is the south that supposedly existed in the minds of southerners from about 1900 to 2003. That version is also the product of the same people who created the first version (example 1). This second version is the basis for the rules that we are living under in 2003. The justification for the abuses of powers is the acceptance and supposed correction of the outrages of version 1.

3. Then there is the society that really existed- that one is hard to find. Almost every writer has a point to prove- truth be damned.

I had intended to drop this whole discussion, but i wish to make clear- There were many militia named in honor of PTB. The discussion of people the insults to them was in a book I read at the GPO at Gettysburg. So far as I know "company H" and my Ggrandfather were never given more than routine write ups- they were typical, so far as I know. I have NO proof he was ever called any epithet of any sort.

You seem to be comfortable with the fables (my term not yours) you have learned. Hang on to them, most do need a reason to feel morally superior- thus religions and politics have power derived from the un investigated. The basis is usually the possession of special knowledge, not available except to the believer, nor convincing to the non-believer. I have no special knowledge at all. And I bet I can give you statistics to support your case that would delight you. I can and have argued both sides with conviction. Maybe someday you can also.
Peace bud, Steve

wierdscience
11-05-2003, 11:53 PM
It sure is good that I'm tired,otherwise I would be typing for hours.
Doc,if your ever close look me up,I'll buy the first round http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gifYou too Spence!

I was thinking that it might be of some interest for me to relate some of my own family history on this subject.

When became an age when things of this nature became an interest to me I had a variety of opinions on the subject of race/religion/etc.and I am proud to admit that may of those opinions have changed with time.I was never a racicst nor was I brought up to be one,but from hearing and seeing several different takes on the same subject from many different points of view I began to realise that many things that I had heard did not add up.That is when I decided to go to the source,living history,my Grandmother and Father as well as aunts and uncles even my own parents where entire volumes of information on subjects that only get a quick passing overview in the history books.

One revelation came from my Grandmother,I had been asking her about her experiences in WWII.I had asked her the question"what about The Jews what are your opinion of them"?She said "well you know that some of our ancestors back in France where Jews"this floored me,I never suspected that my family had any Jewish blood in it,she went on to explain the entire family tree on her side of the family and I left that day with a changed view of the world around me,that experience has also helped me change the minds of people I know who were racsist when I met them.

Other stories my Grandmother told me were from just after the turn of the last century,growing up just across and to the north of New Orleans,she was born in French speaking Edgard,La,most of the people in that area where decended from French colonials who came ashore 200 years prior,these are not to be confused with the Acadians as they came along later,she was born only speaking French,grew up and later moved in to New Orleans with her sister and older brother,at the time there was a backlash against speaking French as it was considered un-American,since she was beyond school age she taught herself to speak English by reading the French edition of the news paper(some papers of the time were printed on both sides,English on one French on the other.

From the strories she tells there was a suprising bit of bigotry between French and Non-French speaking sections of society even though both were often white.I also got all the little tidbits of misc. history that never hit the books,labor strikes,riots,quaritines,wars you name it.

My own ongoing experience has been teaching me alot these last few years,things that the government starts are not always intended to whind up as they do,affirmative action is one example.I realise that without it many positions that were ocupied by whites in the work force would have been along time coming for blacks without it,but at the same time the attitude among some that"he got the job because he's black" also came out of it.

I also came to realise that during the Michigan State University debacle over race addmitions an interesting idea surfaced,that idea is if race isn't suposed to matter,then why is there a box on the application?Maybe society has moved beyond the government on this one?