PDA

View Full Version : OT: iPad



lazlo
04-06-2010, 06:50 PM
One of my friends just came by my office with his shiny new iPad, and I got to play with it a bit. A couple of first impressions:

It's extremely well-made, but it's HEAVY. 1.5 lbs.

The screen is gorgeous -- back-lit and the color saturation is perfect. We compared a Kindle side-by-side with the iPad, and the iPad looks much better. Major downside though -- the screen is exceptionally subject to glare. Standing next to a window, it's almost impossible to read. But it would be a killer device on an airline flight -- watching movies and/or reading books.

It's really fast. 1 Ghz Cortex A9 (Arm) core. Supposedly, 10 hours of battery life, but Apple greatly exaggerates the iPhone battery life, so we'll see...

Supports Acrobat out of the box, of course (it's basically a giant iPhone). Wolfram has a neat mini Mathematica port for $2 :) The electronic journal is really nice.

Holding that big, expensive ($500 for non-3G, $800 for 3G), heavy sheet of glass in my hands made me nervous. It definitely won't survive a drop (an iPhone will in a slip case).

Overall impression, very well made, nicely integrated piece of technology. Too big for my purposes (I'm not a big eBook reader) but I would definitely consider the iPad over the Kindle or the Sony eBook reader.

MrDan
04-06-2010, 08:11 PM
As a Kindle owner, I cannot imagine an e-book that is better. The iPad will do lots a cool stuff I guess, but to me it's another version of a laptop/thin client/really big iPhone/etc. The organic LED on the Kindle is as good as ink. If it gets any better than a Kindle, I'm not sure I want to know about it.

Thanks for the first impressions. She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO) has noted that she is tired of me using my computer when I get home, and maybe she needs an iPad.

Liger Zero
04-06-2010, 08:14 PM
Woman-Unit got one as well. It's a giant iPhone. We'll see once the shiny wears off. I have a couple ideas for around the workshop.

nheng
04-06-2010, 08:34 PM
One of my software friends (Robert, was yours SW too ?) at work also brought in his new Ipad today. Young SW guys seem to be big on gadgets that are obsolete in 3 months ;) I asked if I could take it out to the car and baseball bat and he refused :( For those of you who haven't seen it, check out the Youtube video of 3 guys buying one at Best Buy then immediately taking it out and smashing it before a small public crowd. Probably up to a million views ... the comments don't leave many nice thoughts about American teens or Americans in general.

The screen is indeed gorgeous and appears to have almost symmetrical viewing qualities from any orientation of the clock. He ran it for 8 hours this past weekend and did not deplete the battery charge. I think the display was active for the 8 hours but will have to verify that.

The doming of the metal shell gives it incredible stiffness and strength, sort of like the new VW bugs. The weight also made me nervous since he removed it from the Apple sleeve that it slides into for normal use. What I think it needs is a 4 point "bra" that provides low profile bumpers at the corners to absorb a drop on any flat surface.

It's still an Iphone on steroids but I can see how many people would enjoy it for surfing the web, viewing videos and VERY limited typing.

You can have a vertigo attack as the screen orientation switches in 90 degress increments with your movement of the unit but I guess that can be locked in place.

Not a big Apple fan but this will probably be a good seller ... maybe should've bought stock ... this time.

Den

lazlo
04-06-2010, 09:39 PM
One of my software friends (Robert, was yours SW too ?) at work also brought in his new Ipad today. Young SW guys seem to be big on gadgets that are obsolete in 3 months ;)

Good call Den -- he's a compiler writer :)

He's a big Kindle fan -- it was his that we were comparing to the iPad this afternoon, but I guess you'll just have to see them in person.


The doming of the metal shell gives it incredible stiffness and strength, sort of like the new VW bugs.

Very true -- those handholds on the back really do stiffen the case and give it a very solid feel.

Arthur.Marks
04-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Funny that in general I don't see anyone optimistic in the machinists' forums about this. About a year ago I was looking for a shop computer for being, basically, an overgrown calculator and .pdf manual display.

I work on a lot of bicycles, and I thought I could maybe get a Kindle, Sony Reader or iPhone to work for my purposes. But for manual (.pdf) viewing it just didn't work. Many of the newer electronic manuals and .pdf maintenance books utilize color very well. So the b/w "electronic ink"---as well as the horrible .pdf functionality---of those book readers failed me.

I ended up buying a Mac mini. At the time, I distinctly told the Apple Store employee that, ideally, I needed an iPhone that was at least 5x7" big. Then we both laughed over the decade-long rumors of such a thing actually happening from Apple.

I, personally, find it the perfect answer for storing every machine tool manual and maintenance publication I ever will lay my hands on. Add one of those Skinz (http://www.invisibleskinz.com/) products to it and you're golden. They never did make a product like that for a Sony Reader going into the oily machine shop.

Then again, my money was spent a year ago... :rolleyes:
And I have not yet laid hands on one of the new iPads...

Glacern
04-06-2010, 11:35 PM
Tempting...

http://www.glacern.net/free_photo_upload/ipad_comic.jpg

psomero
04-06-2010, 11:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAl28d6tbko&feature=player_embedded

that's all i've wanted to see for the past week as every tech-related news site has been clogged with pointless ipad posts...

fright101
04-06-2010, 11:59 PM
Check out the HP Slate-

IF I was in the market, I think I would go for one...Engadget has a write-up.

dp
04-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Good one, Sol :)

Lazlo - is the Kimble a color screen? That's a deal breaker for me and readers because so much of what I work with uses color in important ways.

Edit:

And it blends! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAl28d6tbko

sansbury
04-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Teardown play-by-play photos for those interested in the innards:

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad-Teardown/2183/1

lazlo
04-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Good one, Sol :)

Indeed! I'm printing that out on the color printer right now! :)


Lazlo - is the Kimble a color screen? That's a deal breaker for me and

It's black and white -- it's the "electronic ink": ferromagnetic particles suspended in a liquid carrier.

Evan
04-07-2010, 01:02 PM
Yeahbut. The E-Ink screens draw no power at all except to page turn. Battery life for a Sony Reader Daily Edition is around ten thousand page turns. That could be months depending on how it is used. Comparing the I-Pad with an E-Ink monochrome reader is completely inappropriate and useless. They don't target the same market or serve the same purpose. You may have noticed that most novels are printed in black and white and have few or no illustrations. That is the target market for e-Ink readers and for that it serves very well. I am just waiting for the price to come down on the Sony before I pick one up. I have absolutely no use for an I-Pad.

BTW, e-ink isn't ferro magnetic. It is tiny balls that are white on one side and black on the other and they carry a permanent electrostatic charge. They are suspended in a thin gel. By applying the appropriate charges to the grid of transparent tin oxide conductors on the screen the balls roll to the correct orientation and are not affected by external magnetic fields. Xerox invented it years ago.

dp
04-07-2010, 04:48 PM
Yeahbut. The E-Ink screens draw no power at all except to page turn. Battery life for a Sony Reader Daily Edition is around ten thousand page turns.

Battery life for me is not a factor as my usage profile would be 20 minutes/day on the bus and the rest of the time reading at lunch and occasionally in bed. Color is far more important. Imagine trying to make sense of something like this in B&W.

http://www.perfonics.com/wp-content/gallery/paas/symm-component-performance-dashboard.jpg

Evan
04-07-2010, 05:04 PM
For me colour doesn't matter. I have a net book and 3 lap tops for that. What I need right now is something that doesn't take a lot of space and that has all my collection of IC datasheets so I can search and display the part that I am currently wiring up or looking for in my junk boxes. For the machine shop I need to display my own notes and calculations, cut list etc. Right now I end up with numerous sheets of paper or a large stack of hard to search 2" thick data books for electronic parts.

Incidentally, the only computer in any of my shop spaces is the one that controls my mill. It is used ONLY for that purpose and as a file server for my network. I have a rule of no internet in the shop. It's how I manage to actually get things done. If I need to have net access or even edit a CAD-CAM file then I have to shut down the shop and go up stairs to my main work station.

aostling
04-07-2010, 11:50 PM
This 99¢ app sure looks nifty, should appeal to astronomy buffs, or lovers of fine watches and instruments. http://emeraldsequoia.com/eo/



http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/Observatory-1.png

dp
04-07-2010, 11:54 PM
Hmmm - mebbe someone should write an Antikythera mechanism app. Now that would be cool.

Frank Ford
04-08-2010, 12:05 AM
Greetings from Apple (SillyCon) Valley.

When the iPhone came out, I figured I'd wait until I felt the need for one myself - still haven't yet. Nonetheless, it was fun seeing all the excitement generated by that product introduction. My machining pal, Harley, was one of those who stood in line to get a shot at one right away, and he still doesn't get how I could be so backward as to not have one.

Fast forward to last week. One of the very first Apple stores is about a half mile from my house in downtown Palo Alto, and the line started at 2:00 PM on Friday for the opening on Saturday. An interview with the first couple in line revealed that they had placed an early order, and would be able to pick up their iPad anytime on Saturday, regardless of the line. They said they lined up because it was such a fun event, and they'd made friends in the iPhone line. Later, Steve Jobs and his family joined the line.

Understand that? Not me. But then I don't get the Grateful Dead, Woodstock, or any of those other "happenings." My ex may have been right when she said, "Your problem was that you were already 42 when you were born." Could be. . .

beanbag
04-08-2010, 06:46 AM
I have absolutely no use for an I-Pad.



I noticed that that's how I feel about most Apple products, until somebody shows me all the neat things that it can do. Then I think it's really awesome and I want to buy one. Then after a few days, I stop caring again.

lazlo
04-08-2010, 11:27 AM
Yeahbut. The E-Ink screens draw no power at all except to page turn. Battery life for a Sony Reader Daily Edition is around ten thousand page turns. That could be months depending on how it is used.

Very true -- Amazon claims battery life for Kindle 2 of 4 days with Whispernet (wireless) on, 2 weeks with wireless off. People who own the Kindle (like like my friend, the compiler writer) will tell you it's way less, but all the manufacturer's play that game.

But you get to the point of diminishing returns. If the iPad has 10 hours of battery life, that's more than enough for me -- you're never going to read or watch movies for 10 hours at a time...

Dennis and I were discussing that reading with an eBook reader isn't as enjoyable as a paper copy (to me, anyway). Every time I fly to Santa Clara, all the Nerds get out their Kindle or Sony eBook readers, and read for about 10 minutes, and put them away. You can time when the plane is going to level-off by when Kindle people have put them away :D


For me colour doesn't matter. I have a net book and 3 lap tops for that.

That's the part I'm dubious about. It's bigger than an Atom-based Netbook, but it's the usual Apple closed system, so you can only run iTunes apps on it. The hardware is really nice, so there's a lot of potential, but Apple is managing the iTunes apps very poorly.

Apple brags about how many iTunes apps their are, but 99.99% of them are garbage -- there are a dozen different iFart apps, and more than 50 iLevel (re-wrapped versions of the bubble level that comes in the Objective C toolkit) and iFlashight apps. It's really hard to search for apps on the iTunes store, because Apple returns results on the basis of who's paid them the most royalties. So "iFart" was on the "Featured Apps" list for over 6 months, and would show up on just about every search you'd do :(

You know the iTunes app store is a disaster when there's a cottage industry of meta search engines that let you bypass Apple's search criteria.

DFMiller
04-08-2010, 12:37 PM
Evan,
Battery life on my Sony PRS-700 is way less than the advertised number of pages. They count pages as if you were to turn them as fast as you could automate it.*My experience was it only last a week if you read an hour a night. IMHO that is the last Sony product I will ever buy. Its USB charging is a joke.
Dave

DickDastardly40
04-08-2010, 12:45 PM
I hope nobody minds me commenting here despite having no axe to grind over the iPad.

I have a Sony reader which I bought in the UK about a month ago. I sprung for the more expensive upgradeable version which has MS Pro and SD card slots and a stylus.

I didn't buy it as a lifestyle device but to read books. I work in France and downtime for me at present, as I have no workshop, revolves around internet or reading or drinking.

I didn't like the idea of the DRM issues which come with the Kindle and they have to be ordered from the US, whereas I played with the reader in the store at home and liked the thumb over page turn and relative light weight (it weighs about the same as a large paperback without the size) is only 3/8" thick and can be easily read in bed one handed providing there is a light source.

It charges from either a USB socket (cannot charge and use) or a buy separately charger (can charge and use). So far I have not run the battery right down, but plug it into the laptop every few days. I reckon 10000 page turns may be over estimating but who knows.

I have read 18 novels on it since I have had it, it fits easily into my overall pocket in its provided slip cover so I can crash out a few pages at odd quiet moments. It boots instantly to the page you were last on and you can 'dog ear a page or make notes using the stylus. There are 5 font sizes to choose from; the largest puts about 30 words on the screen. I use the next up from the smallest so I guess I can grow into it.

I bought 5 more e-books yesterday from Waterstones including 'Trustee from the Toolroom' for £1.45. Downoaded to my laptop and drag and drop into the reader. This is really the reason I got it, to get books at once in English when abroad and not have the bulk of them cluttering the place up. The benefit on a long holiday without 5 trashy novels in my luggage will be greatly enjoyed.

It has worked for me so far but I don't reckon it would suit everyone espec being only Black & White. Not cheap either especially at the rate I'm spending money on books.

DFMiller
04-08-2010, 03:10 PM
Glad you are having no charging or battery issues. Mine is over a year old and the model had been replaced with a newer model. I imagine they might have fixed the charging issue as it was a mistake the way they did it on my model. Mine has been back to Sony and it works perfectly according to them. Not me. :-)
E books are great for traveling as are audio books.
Dave

Evan
04-09-2010, 07:24 PM
There seem to be a couple of pretty major mistakes in the I-Pad implementation. First, it will not charge when it is syncing. That puts it in the same boat as the Sony.

The other is that it seems not to have an internal clock. There is no native clock app and the third party apps lose the time when it is turned off. If you are out of range of wireless you have no clock because the apps can't sync. That is about as dumb a mistake as I have heard of but it doesn't surprise me. I regularly get phone calls from people trying to sell me cell phone service and they won't believe me when I tell them we don't have service here. Trust me Mr. Jobs, the entire world doesn't look like Silicon Valley.

.RC.
04-09-2010, 07:32 PM
Windows > Apple..

nuff said....

Edit: Sorry Mac is good for the ten programs that actually run on it... Windows is good for the other 10 billion programs that run on it...

lazlo
04-09-2010, 08:19 PM
There seem to be a couple of pretty major mistakes in the I-Pad implementation. First, it will not charge when it is syncing. That puts it in the same boat as the Sony.

The other is that it seems not to have an internal clock. There is no native clock app and the third party apps lose the time when it is turned off.

The missing clock app is purely a software issue, but pretty funny. Like you say, they didn't ship a clock app with the iPad, and if you download a third-party clock app, it goes asleep because Jobs doesn't want the OS to run multitasking, so it loses time when the iPad goes to sleep or you switch apps, and it can't wake the iPad up, like you would need for alarm clock functionality :)

Another annoyance that the iPad inherited from the iPhone: the BlueTooth link is crippled, so you can't sync, or transfer files, with BlueTooth :(

macona
04-09-2010, 11:33 PM
Windows > Apple..

nuff said....

Edit: Sorry Mac is good for the ten programs that actually run on it... Windows is good for the other 10 billion programs that run on it...

Does that 10 billion include the 9 billion viruses, trojans, and other spyware?? ;)

As for the Ipad not charging while syncing a normal sync takes all of a couple minutes, if that less than a minute otherwise. I dont thing I need to worry about how little of a charge I will get in that time period.

ulav8r
04-10-2010, 01:15 PM
Isn't it closer to 9.9 billion viruses, trojans, and other spyware?? ;)

dp
04-10-2010, 01:36 PM
Windows > Apple..

nuff said....

Edit: Sorry Mac is good for the ten programs that actually run on it... Windows is good for the other 10 billion programs that run on it...

Hmmm - I can run everything I need to run on my Mac. Including Windows. This numb nutz argument reminds me of the goofy old days of DOS word processors where their great claim to fame was support for hundreds of printers. I've only ever needed support for two printers and everything under the sun had support for them. So in other words I don't care about most of those 10 billion programs. But I can run them on my Mac if needed. FWIW, I can run them on my Linux machine, too.

I think you're a bit out of date on what computers can do today.

Edit: Eww - needed a spelling correction

lazlo
04-10-2010, 03:09 PM
Hmmm - I can run everything I need to run on my Mac. Including Windows. This numb nutz argument reminds me of the goofy old days of DOS word processors where they're great claim to fame was support for hundreds of printers.

So in other words I don't care about most of those 10 billion programs. But I can run them on my Mac if needed. FWIW, I can run them on my Linux machine, too.

So your answer to the issue that nothing runs on MacOS is to buy a copy of Windows and run it in a virtual machine? Really? :rolleyes:

The cost of VMWare Workstation: $200
The cost of Windows 7: $200
The cost of Mac hardware: > 50% more than the exact same Windows hardware

The cost of using MacOS as a pretty bootloader so you can run your Windows apps slower in a virtual machine with no graphic acceleration, which is still vulnerable to Windows malware: Priceless.

Aren't you a little old to be a Mac Fanboy?

dp
04-10-2010, 03:31 PM
So your answer to the issue that nothing runs on MacOS is to buy a copy of Windows and run it in a virtual machine? Really? :rolleyes:

Mighty tasty words you've put in my mouth. NOT! I said I am not prevented from running all those applications on my Mac. And allowing for the hyperbole of claiming billions of apps, I stand by that.



The cost of VMWare Workstation: $200


The cost of VMware Player: Free
http://www.vmware.com/products/player/
The cost of VMware Server: Free
http://www.vmware.com/products/server/
The cost of VMware Fusion for Mac: $79
http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/



The cost of Windows 7: $200


That is an unavoidable cost if the objective is to run 9 billion Windows apps.



The cost of Mac hardware: > 50% more than the exact same Windows hardware


That is an unavoidable cost if the objective is to have a virus-free workstation. I'm happy to spend the money. $1200 for my laptop, $600 for my wife's Mac Mini, $900 for my Mac Mini server. The OS was included in the cost. Satisfaction level: Priceless



The cost of using MacOS as a pretty bootloader so you can run your Windows apps slower in a virtual machine with no graphic acceleration, which is still vulnerable to Windows malware: Priceless.


If you can find a difference in performance when running Windows in a VM on a modern quad core Mac I'd like to see it. VMware is working on and constantly improving the 3D graphics. My assumption is they will have pass-thru video available that does not require virtualizing.



Aren't you a little old to be a Mac Fanboy?

Pot, kettle? All I said was I can run those applications on my Mac. If making a plain truth claim is equivalent to being a fanboy then I'd suggest you have maturity issues. I also said I can run them on my Linux system. I suppose I'm also a Linux fanboy? I don't even like Linux, but I work on it for a living.

macona
04-10-2010, 03:48 PM
So your answer to the issue that nothing runs on MacOS is to buy a copy of Windows and run it in a virtual machine? Really? :rolleyes:

The cost of VMWare Workstation: $200
The cost of Windows 7: $200
The cost of Mac hardware: > 50% more than the exact same Windows hardware

The cost of using MacOS as a pretty bootloader so you can run your Windows apps slower in a virtual machine with no graphic acceleration, which is still vulnerable to Windows malware: Priceless.

Aren't you a little old to be a Mac Fanboy?


OOhhh! Let the flames begin!!! ;)

You know, I have yet to see a PC knockoff of the mac mini that was anywhere near the price of an apple mini. They all seem to end up considerably more and not as nice. Though I will admit I have not been keeping up with engadget so I dont know if there has been any more little boxes pop up.

And as you said the ipad is well built. You cant compare a mac to a fry's cheap PC with some ECS motherboard and stamped tin case that rattles and cuts your fingers. When it comes to equal speced and quality machines they are about the same price.

Macs can boot native windows too.

Most of the stuff I need I can run under a mac and thats what I do most of my internet on. For cad stuff I need to use one of my PCs.

dp
04-10-2010, 03:54 PM
Most of the stuff I need I can run under a mac and thats what I do most of my internet on. For cad stuff I need to use one of my PCs.

These guys are on the leading edge of Mac support: http://community.irhino3d.com/

lazlo
04-10-2010, 05:48 PM
If you can find a difference in performance when running Windows in a VM on a modern quad core Mac I'd like to see it.

You can't see the 15 - 25% performance hit because you're virtualizing??

It's actually much worse than 15 - 25%, because VMWare grabs half your processor cores and a ton of physical memory.


VMware is working on and constantly improving the 3D graphics. My assumption is they will have pass-thru video available that does not require virtualizing.

That's a bad assumption. 3D Acceleration breaks the whole virtualization paradigm, which is to hide, insulate and clone the details of the hardware platform from the OS.

You have to set the graphics card up in specific modes, and each Direct3D acceleration call is a hardware method the CPU calls on the GPU. The 3D acceleration methods are proprietary, and vastly different, between ATI and Nvidia.

That's why VMWare has been working on "experimental" support for Direct3D for 10 years, and will be working on it 10 years from now. If you're ever tried turning it on, it crashes your system in seconds:

Experimental Support for Direct3D (http://www.vmware.com/support/ws5/doc/ws_vidsound_d3d.html)


"Caution: Features with experimental support are not intended to be enabled on production systems. Enabling 3-D acceleration may cause the host or guest to crash, causing you to lose data, even if 3-D applications are not active. "


Pot, kettle? All I said was I can run those applications on my Mac.

You can't run those applications on your Mac. The best you can do can is boot Windows on your Mac and run those applications on Windows.

.RC.
04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
OOhhh! Let the flames begin!!! ;)




My work here is done :D..LOL

lazlo
04-10-2010, 06:08 PM
My work here is done :D..LOL

It's fun to pick on Mac guys -- it's like arguing with an Esperanto pundit :)

But hey, you got Dennis to call you a numb nutz in one line -- that's pretty impressive! ;)

MrSleepy
04-10-2010, 06:18 PM
But hey, you got Dennis to call you a numb nutz in one line -- that's pretty impressive! ;)

But he only did half the job..he didnt manage to get 25 pages of you and Evan slogging it out.:)

Rob

Evan
04-10-2010, 06:22 PM
I don't much care what OS I use as long as it works. Windows isn't that bad after you take control and turn off the crap you don't need.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/service.jpg

lazlo
04-10-2010, 06:35 PM
But he only did half the job..he didnt manage to get 25 pages of you and Evan slogging it out.:)

Evan's got 25 pages of flame-war going on the fake copper wiring thread, we don't need another right now :)


I don't much care what OS I use as long as it works.

I'm the same way Evan -- I think most people (except for Mac Fanboys) are ;)

I run various flavors of Windows and Linux at work, and have a Macbook Pro for travel. The only time I notice is when I have to run Outlook in VMWare (there's no Exchange client for OSX, by design). It's buggy and crashes a lot, and it's really irritating when you have to reboot Windows inside a Virtual Machine :( I've been experimenting with Parallels, which seems a lot more stable, at least with Outlook.

dp
04-10-2010, 06:48 PM
You can't see the 15 - 25% performance hit because you're virtualizing??

How many applications do you run that can saturate a quad core machine? Any? Most do not. Excel, Word, etc., do not. There is more than enough HP in a VM to handle typical applications. There are, of course, certain power hungry games and graphics heavy apps out there that push the envelope, but the average user has no need for linked video cards, 8 cores, and 16G of RAM with solid state hard drives.


It's actually much worse than 15 - 25%, because VMWare grabs half your processor cores and a ton of physical memory.

How many applications do you run on a day to day basis that require all your ram and cores? To put it another way: when using Excel or Word on an 8 core system with ram disk and 16G of physical ram, bussed video cards and a screaming fast mouse you will not notice any significant improvement at the end of the day vs a standard office issue Dell two-core.

If all you do all day long is run bench marks then you will see a difference. If you do large builds of software you will see a difference. I'm not saying there are exceptions, I'm saying that for the average person doing average things the VM will not be a factor. I run them all day long so have quite a bit of experience. And because I'm able to run Linux on Windows at no monetary cost I am actually more efficient in my work and at no additional expense because I use a free VM player and a free OS.


That's a bad assumption. 3D Acceleration breaks the whole virtualization paradigm, which is to hide, insulate and clone the details of the hardware platform from the OS.

In the old days, that would be last year, I would agree. This year it is all about integration and blurring the distinction between the host and the guest OS's. Parallels has said "our customers want integration and that is what we're providing". This year VMware has made the same claim. I don't agree with at all and even quit using Parallels because of it, but that is the difference between the kitchen table and the data center for virtualization.



You can't run those applications on your Mac. The best you can do can is boot Windows on your Mac and run those applications on Windows.

Yeah, right.
http://MetalWorkingAtHome.com/wp-content/right

Full image of me doing the impossible - running Windows on my mac. This shows the standard Solitaire game - I haven't installed Rhinoceros CAD in Win7 yet (just installed Win 7), but it's been running fine in the XP version of Windows. Need a screen shot? I can even show a screen shot of Rhino running on the Mac in OS X and Windows at the same time if you like. And this is just my Mac Laptop.

http://MetalWorkingAtHome.com/wp-content/right/DSC01991.JPG

dp
04-10-2010, 06:55 PM
It's fun to pick on Mac guys -- it's like arguing with an Esperanto pundit :)

But hey, you got Dennis to call you a numb nutz in one line -- that's pretty impressive! ;)

It is congenital - you can't read. I said the argument was numb nutz, not the person making the claim. Shall I quote it again for you? Sure, why not. Perhaps it will give you some inspiration when composing your apology for twice in this thread attributing to me that which I did not say:



Hmmm - I can run everything I need to run on my Mac. Including Windows. This numb nutz argument reminds me of the goofy old days of DOS word processors where their great claim to fame was support for hundreds of printers.

lazlo
04-10-2010, 07:00 PM
How many applications do you run that can saturate a quad core machine?

Ah, I see -- so it's slow, but it's OK to be slow?



You can't run those applications on your Mac. The best you can do can is boot Windows on your Mac and run those applications on Windows.
Yeah, right.
http://MetalWorkingAtHome.com/wp-content/right

Full image of me doing the impossible - running Windows on my mac. This shows the standard Solitaire game

LOL! Way to prove my point Dennis!

So on the right, you have picture of what?? --- booting Windows 7?! :D

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/shapeimage_2.png

So like I said, the way you "fix" the fact that there's no software available for the Mac is you run Windows. :p

MrSleepy
04-10-2010, 07:02 PM
Evan's got 25 pages of flame-war going on the fake copper wiring thread, we don't need another right now :)


Thats the reason I didnt want to mention adding a LT1025 cold junction compensator or microcontroller to his oven temperature controller..It would have ruined his concentration for the copper wiring battle.:D

Rob

dp
04-10-2010, 07:16 PM
Ah, I see, so it's slow, but it's OK to be slow?

It isn't slow. Don't know why you don't get that. In a quad core machine there is always a core available unless you're running a database or Exchange. And perhaps you are not aware that VMware can provide multiple cores to the guest OS. It would only be slow if the CPU were railed, or memory were depleted. That just does not happen for the typical user.



LOL! Way to prove my point Dennis.

So on the right, you have picture of what?? --- booting Windows 7?! :D

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/shapeimage_2.png

So like I said, the way you "fix" the fact that there's no software available for the Mac is you run Windows. :p

I started the guest. You can't, for example, work on a spread sheet until you open the application. In this case I opened the necessary application: Windows. With Windows open I can then do that which is not possible on the Mac. That being to use proprietary software such as anything that uses ActiveX as is the case with our company RDP. Can't get around it natively in anything but Windows and guess what, that's not a problem. I have Office for Mac, Quickbooks Pro for Mac, Rhino for Mac, that web page took 5 minutes to do using software that came free with my Mac.

And when I don't need Windows anymore, which is 99% of the time, I shut it off. What I see as a feature you see as a weakness. I find that remarkable.

And I've just told you the entire reason for my using Windows. Obviously I'm not suffering for using and preferring a Mac. And as mentioned, I can do this equally well on my Linux box using a copy of that very virtual machine you see in the pictures. And while Win7 is running on my Linux machine I can use it via the free Apple X windows server on my Mac.

lazlo
04-10-2010, 07:42 PM
And when I don't need Windows anymore, which is 99% of the time, I shut it off. What I see as a feature you see as a weakness. I find that remarkable.

So for the "1%" of the time you need it, you have to spend $300 - $400 in virtualization software and a full license and parallel installation of Windows, and run Windows in a performance limited environment with no 3D acceleration. What did someone call it? Using MacOS as a pretty bootloader for Windows?

That sounds like a bloody brilliant solution to me. :rolleyes:

Or you could do like the other 92% of the PC users on Earth and just buy a Windows machine for a whole lot less, and it'll run a whole lot faster. But that doesn't satisfy your non-conformist statement, does it? :)

dp
04-10-2010, 08:39 PM
So for the "1%" of the time you need it, you have to spend $300 - $400 in virtualization software and a full license and parallel installation of Windows, and run Windows in a performance limited environment with no 3D acceleration. What did someone call it? Using MacOS as a pretty bootloader for Windows?

Are you not reading the entire thread? It is not necessary to spend $400. I spent $39.00 for Parallels and then threw it away. It was junk. Then I spent $69.00 on VMware Fusion and like it a lot. I got it so I could run Solaris on my Mac. I was a Solaris admin at the time. Now I'm a Linux admin so I run Linux on it. Both Solaris and Linux are free.

Because I work for a Windows centric company I need certain tools. Exchange/Calendaring, remote desktop. That's it. They gave me a Lenovo laptop but it's crap. Since I already have a Mac and already have Fusion and I already have Linux all that was needed was Windows. Well I already had that too from before I got the Mac. So for $69.00 I have a Wintel/Lintel/Mactel laptop that satisfies my every computing need, and for 99% of the time a Mac is more than adequate.

Then a few months ago MSFT offered all employees where I work a deep discount on Win7. I paid $50 for four seats. They also offered deep discounts on MSFT Office - including the new Mac version. I got that for $40.00. The most expensive thing I bought (not from MSFT) was Quickbooks Pro for Mac at $200, but with that my wife no longer needs Windows for anything so we uninstalled the VM from her Mac and she's using the space for other things. But it was only $40 more than the Windows upgrade of QBP which we needed anyway to run in Win7 so getting rid of Windows on a system for only $40 seemed very affordable.

Because I'm a Unix admin I have no need for gui and so even when I'm working from home, 99% of the time I'm using only the Mac interface and xterms. Mail and calendaring I get via the web. There is one Windows-only timesheet application that I cannot get to run over the web (firewall issue) so I rdp to my desktop from the vm once a week. That's it.

I don't need 3D for remote desktop so even if 3D didn't work in Fusion, which it does, I wouldn't miss it. But if I did need it then I could simply dual-boot into Windows. There is nothing I require of Windows that is so compelling.


That sounds like a bloody brilliant solution to me. :rolleyes:

Or you could do like the other 92% of the PC users on Earth and just buy a Windows machine for a whole lot less, and it'll run a whole lot faster. But that doesn't satisfy your non-conformist statement, does it? :)

Mmmhmmm. There's are reason I left all that behind, you know. And there's no reason to expect running rdp native is going to somehow speed up my network. That, not virtualization, is the bottleneck.

Where did I say I was motivated by being non-conformal? I do this for a living and need my tools to work. They do, I'm happy. More distasteful words you're putting in my mouth. And what is so right with being conformal, for that matter? 'Sup wi'dat?

How about you tell me your solution for Windows, X windows, bourne/korn/bash shell scripting across the wan, rsync, ssh, and sftp protocols, and clustered shell access to clustered systems. All things I use constantly all day long. Don't forget the licensing costs for Xceed, the AV tool d'jour, and the cost of putting up with the inadequacy of running a posix layer in Windows. If all I had was a Windows workstation, which is the case in the office, I could simply install a Linux vm and be done with it. And that is what I did. So I do the same thing on a Mac. That is extended capability, on demand computing. When I need to do simulations in Linux I light off a VM and get it done. When I need to fill out my time sheet I get it done.

lazlo
04-10-2010, 08:49 PM
I don't need 3D for remote desktop so even if 3D didn't work in Fusion, which it does, I wouldn't miss it.

3D acceleration does not work in VMWare fusion, or any other virtual machine, for the reasons I described earlier. Yes, there is a half-assed "experimental (http://www.vmware.com/support/ws5/doc/ws_vidsound_d3d.html)" version of DX9.0c they made back in 2006, but VMWare gave up after implementing a sparse few render targets and texture types. They didn't even try to implement shaders.


"Caution: Features with experimental support are not intended to be enabled on production systems. Enabling 3-D acceleration may cause the host or guest to crash, causing you to lose data, even if 3-D applications are not active. "

So no modern games, or CAD programs (Solidworks, Autodesk/Autocad, Rhino, ..) will run with 3D acceleration enabled. I'll post a screenshot of the crash if you want.

Hell, you can't even run most old DX9 games from 2003/2004, and Microsoft will be releasing DX11 soon...

dp
04-10-2010, 10:03 PM
Here's Rhino for Windows running in a Windows 7 virtual machine hosted on my Mac laptop with VMware Fusion:

http://MetalWorkingAtHome.com/wp-content/right

Shown too are the menu selections for VMware and Rhino that enable accelerated graphics. Will it crash? Probably. Is anyone ever surprised if a Windows app crashes? Hmmmm? It's never crashed on me in XP. This is the first time I've installed and run it in Win7.

lazlo
04-10-2010, 10:31 PM
Here's Rhino for Windows running in a Windows 7 virtual machine hosted on my Mac laptop with VMware Fusion:

http://MetalWorkingAtHome.com/wp-content/right

Shown too are the menu selections for VMware and Rhino that enable accelerated graphics. Will it crash? Probably.

Indeed it will. This is what you get when VMWare tries to virtualize an OpenGL (hardware acceleration) call in Rhino 3D:

http://static.arstechnica.com/hardware/21glerror.PNG

This is Maya (another OpenGL app) running in VMWare Fusion 3.0 with hardware acceleration enabled:

http://static.arstechnica.com/hardware/20xp32-glproblemmaya.PNG

And just like Direct3D, VMWare is "up" to OpenGL 2.1, which was from 6 years ago. Modern apps are OpenGL 3.3 transitioning to 4.0.

But just because you can't run hardware accelerated CAD, it isn't a dealbreaker, right? Oh wait, Mac can't run most games either :(

dp
04-10-2010, 11:49 PM
Indeed it will. This is what you get when VMWare tries to virtualize an OpenGL (hardware acceleration) call in Rhino 3D:

When? I've been running it for 3 years without a crash and I'm running out of patience! :)



And just like Direct3D, VMWare is "up" to OpenGL 2.1, which was from 6 years ago. Modern apps are OpenGL 3.3 transitioning to 4.0.

What version does Rhino 4 use? I really don't know and couldn't find it their web site. What is the performance improvement betweeen 2.1 and 3.3? It is that difference that impacts me at this time. Would 3.3 make a difference on my going on 4 year old Mac laptop? It's a ATY,RadeonX1600 vid card. I have no idea what it is capable of. Do I sound like a big OpenGL/DirectX wank?


But just because you can't run hardware accelerated CAD, it isn't a dealbreaker, right?

I don't know - how will it reveal itself if this deficiency chooses to step out of the shadows?


Oh wait, Mac can't run most games either :(

I don't run games so I guess that won't be an issue for me. But if I did I suppose I could always dual boot to Windows. And pigs may fly.

Edit: Oh yeah - and none of this has squat to do with the iPad. I did read today that they're going to release a new iPhone OS that will provide 7 multitasking features and that down the road it will be available for iPad users. The MaxiPad will be realized.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 12:59 AM
Indeed it will. This is what you get when VMWare tries to virtualize an OpenGL (hardware acceleration) call in Rhino 3D

When? I've been running it for 3 years without a crash and I'm running out of patience! :)

That's amazing, since VMWare didn't have OpenGL support until Fusion 3.0 was released last November :)

From Ars Technica's extensive VMWare Fusion 3.0 review, November 20, 2009:



Running Windows 7 under OS X: Ars reviews VMware Fusion 3 (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/11/vmware-fusion-3-review.ars/6)

VMware Fusion 3 was released last week into the anxiously trembling hands of desktop virtualization junkies, and we've run the release through a gamut of heavy tests to see if it's able to meet the hype.

Brand new to VMware Fusion and definitely at the top of my old wish list is OpenGL hardware acceleration.

At first glance, 3.0 doesn't look to be teeming with new features, but the changes that are there are significant:

* Supports running atop OS X 10.6's 64-bit kernel and runs as a 64-bit application
* Direct-X 9.0c support
* New CPU core handling for better multicore support for desktop Windows versions
* Better integration with Mac desktop environment, and Unity improvements
* Windows 7 guest OS and Aero support
* OpenGL 2.1 support for Windows client VMs

Testing OpenGL

While I could have dug up some OpenGL games to test, the most appealing part of OpenGL support is the ability to run professional applications, which almost exclusively use OpenGL. So I went about throwing some randomly selected GL-based professional applications at VMware to see how it fared. The results were not good.


http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/VMwareFusion30Review.png

lazlo
04-11-2010, 01:15 AM
I did read today that they're going to release a new iPhone OS that will provide 7 multitasking features and that down the road it will be available for iPad users.

It's going to be a simultaneous release -- iPhone/iPad OS 4.0. But it's goofy multitasking: you won't be able to run multiple third-party apps simultaneously. But Apple will have multitasking services that third-party apps can hook, including audio and video streaming.

Job's said that you'll be able to double-click the home disc, and a list of apps will pop up, and you can select one at a time :rolleyes:

The core iPhone/iPad apps and services already multitask: you can listen to MP3's with the iPod app while you surf, but third party apps close immediately.
That's Job's paranoia that multitasking badly-written 3rd party apps are going to swamp the iPhone/iPad. Considering that 99% of iTunes apps are crap, maybe he's right...

dp
04-11-2010, 01:15 AM
That's amazing, since VMWare didn't have OpenGL support until Fusion 3.0 was released last November :)

Didn't mean to mislead - I've been running Rhino in a VM for three years and have never had a crash. I've run it since 3.0 came out (and the beta prior) without a crash.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 01:17 AM
Didn't mean to mislead - I've been running Rhino in a VM for three years and have never had a crash. I've run it since 3.0 came out (and the beta prior) without a crash.

Right, you've been running it without hardware acceleration.

SolidWorks runs in a virtual machine window too, but you can't enable the hardware acceleration, so rendering is slow.

dp
04-11-2010, 01:51 AM
Right, you've been running it without hardware acceleration.

SolidWorks runs in a virtual machine window too, but you can't enable the hardware acceleration, so rendering is slow.

It's a virtual machine - I'm running all of it without hardware. I'm used to that. I've been running virtual machines for over 15 years. And I've said here before - VM isn't for everyone. If you absolutely need 100% from a machine then don't run a VM. That does not apply to most people. I run hundreds of servers in VM's at work. No Oracle servers are among them. It is not appropriate. Oracle is a rare product that can suck a 16 processor system, 96 GB of RAM and all, right into a well. It's a hell of a thing to see that much power falling behind during peak loads.

But if you have enough cores to handle it, OpenGL in a VM is still better than not having it at all. Especially if the software can pass the commands straight to hardware. I would not go out and by a Windows box to run any CAD product, personally, but then I don't have a need to draw extremely complex things.

I used to support AutoCad on IBM AT clones and 386 processors when they came out back in the day, running on DOS with add-on disk cache and 386Max memory managers. We thought that was blazing fast. Later when I was at Boeing the Catia systems were fantastic. The viewport technology has come a long way since then but I just don't have a need for it.

As for the iPad, I predict there are going to be some very interesting applications show up for it that take advantage of the accelerometers, and when it gets a camera. Can you not imagine seeing them used as makeup mirrors on the steering wheel of a car in the commute lane? And they can provide true view or mirror view so you can see how others see you. Phase II: VR and a power glove. Bus commutes will never be the same.

aostling
04-11-2010, 02:25 AM
And they can provide true view or mirror view so you can see how others see you. Phase II: VR and a power glove. Bus commutes will never be the same.

Tell me, why does a mirror flip left for right, but not up for down?

dp
04-11-2010, 03:17 AM
Tell me, why does a mirror flip left for right, but not up for down?

It doesn't. It returns light back to the source unchanged in left/right up/down orientation. Light that originates from your left ear is bounced back from your left side to your eyes. Same with top/bottom. You are seeing light from your face as it paints the mirror surface or a wall. Your face paints any surface the same way but only mirrors or similar reflective surface preserves it in the reflection you see.

We know that we paint even distant surfaces we are exposed to because mirrors that are very far away still bounce back a great deal of that light with reasonable clarity and preserved orientation.

It is equivalent to seeing a movie from the back of a translucent screen rather than the front.

aostling
04-11-2010, 12:27 PM
Dennis,

That's a good answer; I now have a perfect model of the phenomenon.

Concave mirrors?

I'm typing this on an iPad in the Apple store. I don't think I could get used to this virtual keyboard.

Evan
04-11-2010, 12:36 PM
I predict there will soon be a simple mechanical overlay with real keys that you can place on the screen to improve the tactile feedback of the "keyboard". It shouldn't cost more than a few dollars from Deal Extreme...

aostling
04-11-2010, 12:58 PM
I predict there will soon be a simple mechanical overlay with real keys that you can place on the screen to improve the tactile feedback of the "keyboard".

Home now, I type happily away.

Tactile feedback would be a great improvement for the iPad keyboard. But I really miss the wireless Magic Mouse. I have never thought of the mouse as a hindrance.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 01:01 PM
I predict there are going to be some very interesting applications show up for it that take advantage of the accelerometers, and when it gets a camera.

They're going to make a version of the iPad with a camera? I assumed that the reason they didn't put a camera or a phone on the iPad because it would look ridiculous holding a big tablet up to your head :D


Home now, I type happily away.

Ah, you bought one Allan? :)

MuellerNick
04-11-2010, 01:13 PM
I assumed that the reason they didn't put a camera or a phone on the iPad because it would look ridiculous holding a big tablet up to your head

Ridiculous? They don't think so (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8mpP6qhD8I)! :D


Nick

aostling
04-11-2010, 01:37 PM
Ah, you bought one Allan? :)

I'll wait until the Rough Guides are available from the iBookstore. For a world traveler those guides have unbeatable city maps (and wonderful sidebars with fascinating historical information). The maps need to be viewed in color, so the iPad should be the perfect tool for displaying these.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 02:11 PM
Ridiculous? They don't think so (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8mpP6qhD8I)! :D

OK, aside from the fact that truly is ridiculous, how are they doing that? The iPad doesn't have a camera! :)
Oh, they're not caricaturing your face, it's just emoting based on sound -- lame :p


For a world traveler those guides have unbeatable city maps (and wonderful sidebars with fascinating historical information). The maps need to be viewed in color, so the iPad should be the perfect tool for displaying these.

Ah, very true -- that would be a killer app. The 3G is tri-band, so you should be able to live-feed from Europe and Asia, at least. By the way, the iPad weather bug app is awesome! So you could wander around with your iPad tour guide software, keep track of the local weather, and show the locals your crazy faces :)

dp
04-11-2010, 02:38 PM
They're going to make a version of the iPad with a camera? I assumed that the reason they didn't put a camera or a phone on the iPad because it would look ridiculous holding a big tablet up to your head :D

I further predict it will either have two cells or a moving prism mechanism so it can face the user or the world. The Every Man's Google Streets recorder.

I suspect the only reason they don't already have a camera is because they didn't have time to integrate one into the live orientation system that lets you flip from landscape to portrait, or flip over 180 to show a friend the screen. The camera location, necessarily on the perimeter, moves around as the device is rotated or flipped which creates a perspective offset.

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 02:49 PM
The rule of thumb for Mac products it seems is don't buy one for at least 6months.By then the upgraded version will be out that will do twice as much for less than half the cost.

Right now the iPhad is an expensive brick.

Evan
04-11-2010, 03:05 PM
If they put a camera on each end or each side it could do 3D. 3D is a very big deal since Avatar came out. Then Allan would be in Macputer Heaven. :D

lazlo
04-11-2010, 03:18 PM
If they put a camera on each end or each side it could do 3D. 3D is a very big deal since Avatar came out. Then Allan would be in Macputer Heaven. :D

Very interesting idea Evan. My employer is big into 3D display hardware -- uses high frequency refresh with polarized glasses. You can download the 3D plug-ins for most modern games: Crysis, Call of Duty, Battlefield, WoW... If you've tried it out at Fry's or Best Buy, it's very impressive.

I've got it running on SolidWorks in my office -- makes Tony Stark's lab seem Old School :D

So my employer contracted Fuji to make a 3D point and shoot camera, and the effect is stunning. They took pictures of the Laker's cheerleaders in 3D -- most impressive :)

aostling
04-11-2010, 04:12 PM
If they put a camera on each end or each side it could do 3D. 3D is a very big deal since Avatar came out. Then Allan would be in Macputer Heaven. :D

Too right, you are. Frank Ford should take a stroll to Waverley Street where Steve Jobs lives (and walks), and put this notion into his head.

Evan
04-11-2010, 04:49 PM
I have a development project in mind that I have been waiting for as a retail product for many years. What I want is true digital binoculars that use a pair of cameras that feed a pair of small eyepiece screens just like you find on a camcorder. What I want it to do is to record video that can be played back later in the binoculars and on any other suitable device of course.

A few years ago such as device was being promoted but it turned out to be vapourware. Since then I have seen no hint of anything like this on the market. If you included a GPS and laser range finding as well as a flux gate compass you would have the binos that were featured in the first Star Wars movie by Luke Skywalker which is how long I have been waiting for this gadget.

It's beginning to look like I will have to build my own which is finally a feasible proposition.

Evan
04-11-2010, 04:55 PM
My employer is big into 3D display hardware -- uses high frequency refresh with polarized glasses.

I had 3D running on a 286 back in the 80's. I modified a pair of Sega 3D polarized shutter glasses to be controlled from the parallel port. The only software capable of doing realtime 3D displays could display fairly simple wireframe CAD drawings in actual 3D. I still have those glasses. I should see about modding them to work with my Nvidia card.

aostling
04-11-2010, 05:22 PM
I have a development project in mind that I have been waiting for as a retail product for many years. What I want is true digital binoculars that use a pair of cameras that feed a pair of small eyepiece screens just like you find on a camcorder.

A great idea. The electronic viewfinder for the Olympus E-P2, also sold as an accessory for the cheaper E-PL1, has 1.44 million dots. It's quite expensive but otherwise might be the optimum eyepiece screen for your proposed project. Are there camcorder eyepieces with this sort of resolution too?

From http://fourthirds-user.com/2009/11/olympus_ep2_handson_preview.php

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/EP2_11.jpg

dp
04-11-2010, 05:27 PM
I had 3D running on a 286 back in the 80's. I modified a pair of Sega 3D polarized shutter glasses to be controlled from the parallel port. The only software capable of doing realtime 3D displays could display fairly simple wireframe CAD drawings in actual 3D. I still have those glasses. I should see about modding them to work with my Nvidia card.

I recall from years ago seeing some stuff on TV about that as a future technology for broadcast television. It didn't work well for a lot of people, but it was simple to do.

dp
04-12-2010, 04:04 AM
I was sitting here minding my own damned biddness thinking about this vm stuff when it occurred to me why we have crap like DirectX and OpenGL. It's that damned Window HAL layer! The HAL layer is a software layer that only recently was migrated to the Windows kernel. The purpose of it was to placate the games vendors who were accustomed to writing to memory mapped video and other direct to video APIs. Win95 introduced the HAL (hardware abstraction layer) so the actual hardware the system was running on could be hidden from the OS. This was a sweetheart deal for MSFT who could claim Windows would run everywere (it didn't). This, in essence, means every instance of Windows is very similar to virtual machines in that the hardware is a layer away from the applications via software.

This HAL stuff did not please the hi-perf software folks, so DirectX, a by-pass technology that skirts around the HAL was invented. It and OpenGL are hacks to regain performance built into the hardware but not otherwise available in Windows.

The API for this has changed more often than Tiger Woods' SYT d'jour. But what is the really serious flaw with this? It is that the applications people need to write to this ever changing API and/or the OpenGL API. It's another mess MSFT has created the cost of which is picked up by the vendors and don't you just know that is passed on in the price of the product.

Evan
04-12-2010, 04:38 AM
Seems to me that the HAL was strictly an NT feature that first showed up in NT3.0.

dp
04-12-2010, 11:41 AM
Seems to me that the HAL was strictly an NT feature that first showed up in NT3.0.

I think NT 3.1 was the first of the NT strain so the numbering wouldn't fall behind Windows which was also at 3.1, but it wasn't a consumer OS. But it did suffer for performance which is why NT 3.51 came out so soon. Win95 with the plug and pray feature was the first consumer OS to have a HAL.

aostling
04-12-2010, 12:38 PM
This article http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/technology/12slate.html?ref=technology describes the competition which the iPad will face from other manufacturers. In particular, the upcoming HP slate computer looks attractive because it will couple with a mouse.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/HPslate.jpg

Evan
04-12-2010, 01:09 PM
Windows NT 3.1 came out 2 years before Win 95. I can't find a NT3.0 so my memory on that must be faulty.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/WinHistoryDesktop.mspx

Win 95, 98 and ME do not use a hardware abstraction layer. Those OSes were built directly on MSDOS and are effectively a DOS Shell.





Making Sure the Correct HAL is Installed

Intended For
Windows XP
Windows 2000

The HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) is a set of drivers, upon which the Windows NT kernel is based. If the installed HAL is incorrect, you may have a problem ranging from certain settings not working (such as APM) to Windows not starting at all. Note that the concept of a HAL doesn't apply to Windows 95, 98, and Me.


http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article07-100

dp
04-12-2010, 02:37 PM
Win 95, 98 and ME do not use a hardware abstraction layer. Those OSes were built directly on MSDOS and are effectively a DOS Shell.

Win95 didn't use the hal.dll. In fact I don't even recall what the layer was called, but vxd's were required to talk to the hardware. Pretty much what DirectX is accomplishing today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxD

Evan
04-12-2010, 04:16 PM
There is nothing to stop you from direct access of the I/O hardware in win9x.

In BASIC for example you can write directly to the printer port with this command:

OUT &H378, N

Where N is the value you want to show up on the port output.

The same applies to all the I/O registers in the system.

lazlo
04-12-2010, 04:41 PM
I was sitting here minding my own damned biddness thinking about this vm stuff when it occurred to me why we have crap like DirectX and OpenGL. It's that damned Window HAL layer!

OpenGL (and DirectX) is way more than a HAL layer: it's a 2D and 3D graphics API. To draw 3D graphics, you have to chose render targets and color depths, calculate the object transformation matrix (rotation, offset, etc), calculate the view frustum, chose a lighting and shading model, project the object into the view frustum, ...

There are many steps in the graphics rendering pipeline, and each step is comprised of many smaller steps. If you didn't have an OpenGL library, you would have to write assembly code for every single graphics card on earth. The code wouldn't even be portable from one model to the next of the same graphics card vendor (ATI, Nvidia, Intel, Matrox,...).

SGI (the computer graphics giant that formed the basis of much of modern graphics technology) had a proprietary API called "GL". A consortium was formed (with SGI's participation) to create an Open System version of GL called, immaginatively, OpenGL :) You asked earlier the difference between OpenGL 2.1 (the old, circa 2002 version that's partially implemented by VMWare), and the modern OpenGL 3.3 and 4.0: it's features, not performance. So as GPU's add hardware tesselators (to derive high-resolution wireframes on the GPU, instead of having the software writer design it explicitly), OpenGL and DirectX add hardware-independent graphics calls so the software developers don't have to rewrite their code for every graphics card in existence.

To give you an idea of the power of OpenGL, you can take an OpenGL app from Mac (which uses OpenGL for it's graphics), recompile it on the PC, or even the iPhone, with virtually no changes, and it will just run.

So, for example, here's a code snippet of OpenGL to render a rotating triangle. It's the same code, whether it's Windows or OSX or iPhone, ATI or Nvidia or...



glClearColor( 0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f );
glClear( GL_COLOR_BUFFER_BIT );

glPushMatrix();
glRotatef( theta, 0.0f, 0.0f, 1.0f );
glBegin( GL_TRIANGLES );
glColor3f( 1.0f, 0.0f, 0.0f ); glVertex2f( 0.0f, 1.0f );
glColor3f( 0.0f, 1.0f, 0.0f ); glVertex2f( 0.87f, -0.5f );
glColor3f( 0.0f, 0.0f, 1.0f ); glVertex2f( -0.87f, -0.5f );
glEnd();
glPopMatrix();


The reason this can't be virtualized, is because each of those glXXX calls is a hardware method sent to the GPU. So to virtualize OpenGL (or DirectX), you'd have to write separate virtual functions for every call in the OpenGL (or DirectX) API (over 1,000 of them). The OpenGL and DirectX API's are constantly evolving, because the GPU vendors are continually adding new features to the GPUs.

Wikipedia has a really lousy entry on OpenGL, but the OpenGL consortium actually has a pretty good overview:

http://www.opengl.org/code/
http://www.nullterminator.net/opengl32.html

lazlo
04-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Win95 didn't use the hal.dll.

All OS's have a HAL layer. Windows does, OSX does, Linux does, BSD does, Solaris does... Hardware abstraction layers allow you to migrate the kernel to different processors/platforms (chipsets) without having to rewrite large portions of the kernel.

dp
04-12-2010, 07:25 PM
OpenGL (and DirectX) is way more than a HAL layer: it's a 2D and 3D graphics API. To draw 3D graphics, you have to chose render targets and color depths, calculate the object transformation matrix (rotation, offset, etc), calculate the view frustum, chose a lighting and shading model, project the object into the view frustum, ...

They aren't HAL at all. They are to HAL what a tunnel is to a firewall. It's a way around a problem layer.

Evan
04-12-2010, 08:16 PM
All OS's have a HAL layer. Windows does, OSX does, Linux does, BSD does, Solaris does... Hardware abstraction layers allow you to migrate the kernel to different processors/platforms (chipsets) without having to rewrite large portions of the kernel.


Windows 9X has nothing that is equivalent to the NT hardware abstraction layer. Each device needs it's own driver for each different version of Windows and Windows needs a driver for each different version of a device. There is no insulation between the user mode and the hardware since there isn't a user mode and nothing to prevent any software from directly accessing any device.

Windows 98SE came with 10 cabinet files that contain about 3000 different drivers. Even that only covered the most common hardware at the time. Without a specific driver for each and every version and type of hardware Win98 would not be able to talk to it.

lazlo
04-12-2010, 08:49 PM
Windows 9X has nothing that is equivalent to the NT hardware abstraction layer.

You could argue that -- Win 9x was based on DOS. Although some folks argue that even CP/M and DOS had a hardware abstraction layer.
(http://www.pagetable.com/?p=184)

They aren't HAL at all. They are to HAL what a tunnel is to a firewall. It's a way around a problem layer.

I don't follow that metaphor. Like I said earlier, OpenGL and DirectX is not a HAL. But they do abstract away the hardware layer. So when you call:

glRotatef( theta, 0.0f, 0.0f, 1.0f );

That translates to around 1,000 assembly instructions on the GPU, and unlike microprocessors, GPU assembly language changes from generation to generation. So relating back to the original question, the reason Mac's can't virtualize OpenGL and DirectX hardware support is because VMware would have to write virtualized hardware calls for all the thousands of OpenGL and DirectX calls, and all their permutations.

A fool's errand when you can just boot Windows directly.

dp
04-17-2010, 08:32 PM
A couple iPad updates: Some universities don't allow them and for interesting reasons: They're a threat to their networks:

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100416-712117.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

And they're banned in Israel for the same reason:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/hardware/mac/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224400383

Didn't see that coming.

macona
04-17-2010, 10:26 PM
Something fishy about the Israel one. Cant read the WSJ one so who knows.

dp
04-17-2010, 11:54 PM
Something fishy about the Israel one. Cant read the WSJ one so who knows.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100415/ap_on_hi_te/ml_israel_ipad_ban
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1162992.html

Tourists can't bring them in.

Et tu, UK?

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/laptops/0,39029450,49305469,00.htm

aostling
04-18-2010, 12:21 AM
Tourists can't bring them in.
Et tu, UK?


Apple has some time to work this out; the ongoing eruption of Eyjafjallajökull makes it impossible to fly to Europe in the foreseeable future.

Pete F
04-18-2010, 02:33 AM
The Israeli Ministry of Communications claims the iPad uses Wi-Fi signals that are more powerful than those used in their country and also across Europe.

Really? Cool!

Seriously, why would this interfere? I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the wireless protocols are built with multiple signals in mind...

My parents stunned my wife with one (well, on order, to arrive next week) for her birthday today. We're all looking forward to trying it out.

-Pete

dp
04-18-2010, 02:41 AM
Seriously, why would this interfere? I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the wireless protocols are built with multiple signals in mind...

My guess is that the Israelis are accustomed to think of everything in Israel as a target and try to reduce that footprint. What might happen if someone tossed an iPad on the roof of a building, for example, and strolled off into the sunset as a homing device locked on to a crowded theater.

Pete F
04-18-2010, 02:45 AM
Interesting. Would wi-fi make a particularly good homing signal?

-Pete

dp
04-18-2010, 03:00 AM
Interesting. Would wi-fi make a particularly good homing signal?

-Pete

Do cell phones make good triggering devices? I'm the wrong guy to ask, but anything with a GPS and a radio transmitter seems to me to be a reasonable technology to try out.

MuellerNick
04-18-2010, 05:06 AM
Think it's only the power output. And I doubt that Apple forgot about that. Europe is a big market for them. And at least they should know, because their AirBase (long ago) also passed the EU-regulations.
I kind of doubt that a iPad woud be confiscated when entering Europe with an US-iPad.
If you look at the configuration menue for WiFi, there should be a selection of which country the device is working in. Change that -> done.

So this more sounds like a fart than a fact to me.


Nick

lazlo
04-18-2010, 12:44 PM
My guess is that the Israelis are accustomed to think of everything in Israel as a target and try to reduce that footprint. What might happen if someone tossed an iPad on the roof of a building, for example, and strolled off into the sunset as a homing device locked on to a crowded theater.

The iPad was built with North American WiFi signal strengths, so the Israelis have banned it. There are ten other electronic gadgets that are banned, probably for the same reason:


"The Wall Street Journal reported that The iPad’s Wi-Fi wireless technology was built to the U.S. standard, that allow stronger signals than those in Europe and Israel.

According to Ministry spokesman Yechiel Shavi , “This device’s wireless strengths violate Israeli law and will overpower other wireless devices in Israel,”. "

The iPad has a GPS receiver, so yeah, it would make a good target. But so do most modern cell phones, and they're a lot easier to hide :)