PDA

View Full Version : Major SCAM alert!



Evan
04-07-2010, 02:31 AM
I recently bought some stranded copper speaker wire from the local Dollar and More store. The have good prices on various gauges of stranded copper wire that I use for low voltage wiring to operate remote functions on my telescope and other similar applications.

This time they had a new product which is packaged exactly the same as the other speaker wire but is "monster" 10 gauge stranded wire for around 10 or 15 dollars. I don't remember exactly how much it was but it was a very good priced for that amount of copper wire in that size.

Tonight I had a use for some and proceeded to cut a short piece. Surprisingly my small nippers didn't even make a dent in it. I hauled out the Excellite piano wire cutters and even they had a tough time cutting it.

This was very unusual and I puzzled over it for a bit. Then it struck me that all may not be as it seemed. I grabbed a handy magnet and it smacked itself against the roll.

THIS WIRE IS 99% STEEL, NOT COPPER.

It has a micro thin plating of copper to make it look like copper. The strands are purposely very thin to keep it flexible like copper. The insulation is polarity striped as it should be for copper speaker wire and it is sold on the same display as the rest of the copper wires.

BUT IT ISN"T COPPER.

It wouldn't have made a dangerous difference for my application but if somebody bought fake copper wire like this to wire up a lamp or some other appliance it would present a serious fire hazard because of the high resistance of steel wire.

This wire is from China and this scam has the potential to cost lives. I think it would be a good idea to take a magnet with you when you go shopping for any type of wire. Who knows where this scam will turn up?

http://ixian.ca/pics7/scamcopper1.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/scamcopper2.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/scamcopper3.jpg

Jim Shaper
04-07-2010, 02:53 AM
Doesn't look to have Monster stamped on it at all. Was it just the packaging?

Real "monster cable" has stupid stranding inside (marketing BS), so you know it's the real thing. It's also printed every foot for dispensing/charging customers for installed quantity.

Personally, I only buy surplus off known spools and only buy brands made in USA. Someone's gotta keep our people employed. :rolleyes:

darryl
04-07-2010, 02:55 AM
Wow- what a scam! I think I'm going to take a magnet and some real copper to the dollar stores here and point this out- should be fun, especially if there's lots of people in there at the time-

Paul Alciatore
04-07-2010, 03:44 AM
There is really no reason to buy any special speaker wire. The differences between regular lamp cord (zip cord) and the most expensive speaker wire are going to be so small that I doubt that anyone could hear the difference in a blind test. The main purpose of these cables is to enrich the makers.

dp
04-07-2010, 03:57 AM
I agree regarding speaker wire, but the difference between copper and steel for many applications can be pretty serious.

Mostly it tells us the vendor is not serious about a long term relationship based on trust. Kinda reminds me of an ex-wife...

Jim Shaper
04-07-2010, 03:57 AM
I can tell you that speaker wire does change things in an audio system. The resistance and capacitance of your wires has the same effect a passive crossover network does in delivering the frequency ranges to the drivers.

My speaker cables are nothing more than plenum grade cat5 cable braided 3 to a speaker and then having the twisted pairs split to make positive and negative leads. They sound better than all the high end cables they've been A/B/X'd against and cost all of about 5 bucks when I made them.

There's few things more fun than bringing in a home brewed pair of cables to a snooty audio boutique and having the salesman (reluctantly) agree your cables sound better than his after he thought he'd been voting for his house favorite. :D

Doc Nickel
04-07-2010, 04:18 AM
There is really no reason to buy any special speaker wire. The differences between regular lamp cord (zip cord) and the most expensive speaker wire are going to be so small that I doubt that anyone could hear the difference in a blind test. The main purpose of these cables is to enrich the makers.

-True, but the point of the post is that Evan bought "copper" wire and ended up with iron wire. As he notes, if somebody used it for a 110V application (unlikely, but possible) it could result in a fire.

Some Chinese factory got an order for X tons of copper speaker wire, charged for the cost of copper, but sold the buyer much cheaper iron wire. As noted, 100% deliberate scam, and interesting to hear about.

Doc.

Circlip
04-07-2010, 04:39 AM
" Hey Fong, yu erd vis won? Some plick in Amelika bou sum of owr "Cheap" clopper wire and is comlpaining abow it."

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Before we complain about foriegn scams, didn't some form of quality control have to be instituted for checking the tension wires on the Brooklyn Bridge when first being built???

Regards Ian

dr pepper
04-07-2010, 05:00 AM
Theres so much bull in speaker cables, thats why they make so much cash out of it.
Good amps have a low source impedance and some think that national grid wire is necessary, as a sound engineer for 5 years I'm qualified to say it isnt, good quality 02 free with a greater number of thinner strands is good, but you dont really need 'trick' cable capable of jump starting the royal brittania.
In this country I think selling that cable would probably be contradicting the trades description act, they'd have to mark it up as steel.
It would be good for stringing up outside though, if you wanted low voltage lighting or a speaker in that tree, the cable would be strong enough physically to take the strain.
Anyways Blitish wire is made from 100% pure oxygen rich clopper.

Circlip
04-07-2010, 05:12 AM
"Oxygen free Copper wire"

Now there's a piece of Audio salesmans bulls**t to ponder on.

Bit like the term "Musicality" bandied about thirty years ago by the Hi-Fli all knowing.

Regards Ian (Ex Leak & Wharfedale)

Evan
04-07-2010, 05:18 AM
This has nothing to do with the so called Monster wire and it wasn't labled as such. I used that as a desciptive term because of the gauge of the wire. What it is is fake copper wire that is dressed to appear as real copper wire for a specific application. The trouble comes from the very real possibility that this wire might be used for some other purpose where the difference is of primary importance and could represent a safety hazard. It is clearly a deceptive trade practice and as such is illegal both in Canada and the USA as well as many other countries around the world.

This particular scam need not be limited to any specific geographical location and could well show up anywhere. Nor is there any particular reason to think it is limited just to this specific product. It could easily apply to just about any application that depends on stranded copper wire.

Circlip
04-07-2010, 05:28 AM
Perhaps they're sending this over to combat the drywall panel problem??

Regards Ian.

Evan
04-07-2010, 05:33 AM
I didn't know that you had a drywall problem. You should try taking a magnet with you the next time you buy some wire.

beanbag
04-07-2010, 05:40 AM
What a dirty trick. Did the label say it was copper wire? Are you going to take it back to the store and complain?

Evan
04-07-2010, 05:48 AM
I don't believe it was labled as to the type of wire but neither is the rest in the same packaging and appearance but smaller gauge. The smaller gauges are real copper wire, it's only this size that isn't.

winchman
04-07-2010, 06:03 AM
You should send a complaint to the company.

Contact Us

For More Information in Canada:
Your Dollar Store with More Inc.
102-1626 Richter Street
Kelowna, BC
Canada
V1Y 2M3

Head Office: (250) 860-4225
Toll Free: 86MORE-4-YOU (866-673-4968)
Fax: (250) 860-4215
Email:ydswm@dollarstore.ca
Website: http://www.dollarstore.ca

Maybe they were scammed, too. At least give them a chance to do the right thing.

dr pepper
04-07-2010, 07:12 AM
Yep I understood you Evan, I was just having a crack at monster cable.
Oxygen free copper is now big business, and nearly all audio cable is and a lot of cat 5 is even 02 free.
Some reckon that ofe cable improves bass performance, no cable improves it, but some can do it less harm than others, ofe is said to have 1% better conductivity than standard stuff, and some bull merchants will say that ofe has better high freq performance than standard, which is true to an extent but only at freq's above 1mhz, way way over the audio range so it could be said that ofe is bull, however ofe stuff tends to conform to higher specs so overall tends to be better quality cable.
Ofe is used here at work on paper plasma treater machines where it is needed, as it doesnt give of o2 in an environment of 03 (ozone) and contaminate the process.
My main point was that cable the size of your wrist is pointless on a domestic stereo.
Stuff I used in the business up to a few hundred watts was standard 2 core automotive cable 4.0mm2 about 10awg, and was cheap for a whole roll.

Evan
04-07-2010, 07:48 AM
I intend to complain Roger. I am sure the Dollar store was scammed too. The scary part is that they also sell electrical parts such as outlets and light switches. Brass plated steel anybody? I will be taking my magnet with me when I next go to town.

RobbieKnobbie
04-07-2010, 08:23 AM
The bigger point here is where else is the manufacturer passing off this wire... this time it's got clear shielding and is called 'speaker wire' perhaps more of that batch is installed in clothes dryers, electric motors or televisions. Maybe children's toys. The point is you just don't know.

And that sucks

J Tiers
04-07-2010, 09:19 AM
That is a small-time fake.... bad, needs to be clobbered right now, but certainly not the worst.

For one thing, the wire is presumably not labeled for mains power usage... no CSA/UL/etc. it's probably not labeled for anything....

The absolute WORST scam I have seen for a non-food product, is the circuit breakers.... these were a 'real" case and handle, and seemingly real labeling (with slight differences from genuine), but inside the "circuit breaker" there was only a piece of heavy wire joining the input and output terminals.

of course, the thing would cause a fire almost certainly..... nothing would open it, and your 14 ga wire would be forced to carry enough current to open the main 100A or 200A:eek: breaker.

$crew al-quaida, the folks perpetrating this sort of scam, this and poisonous cough medicine, poisonous toothpaste, etc, AND the US and Canadian greedy execs who have to save another penny by importing the crap, the lot of them need to be lined up and "processed" for the landfill. My only fear is that these "people" are hazmat, and would need to be segregated, raising the cost of "processing" them.

Extreme? Maybe.... maybe not. Back home in china there would be no questions asked...... they'd "have a stroke"... a 9mm stroke.

Evan
04-07-2010, 09:19 AM
That had also occured to me. I can't think of a legitimate use for wire like this. If it needs to be corrosion resistant then zinc is the best choice. I don't recall ever seeing copper plated fine stranded steel wire before. That to me suggests that this is a deliberate scam and not some sort of mix up. If the manufacturer of this product is willing to scam anyone then why should we assume that they aren't going to scam everyone regardless of the application.?

I think perhaps I should contact some federal authorities on this matter. At the very least I will bet this product is not correctly declared for import.

Tony Ennis
04-07-2010, 09:21 AM
Simply horrible. What thought process is necessary for this to be ok?

J Tiers
04-07-2010, 09:31 AM
That had also occured to me. I can't think of a legitimate use for wire like this. If it needs to be corrosion resistant then zinc is the best choice. I don't recall ever seeing copper plated fine stranded steel wire before. That to me suggests that this is a deliberate scam and not some sort of mix up. If the manufacturer of this product is willing to scam anyone then why should we assume that they aren't going to scam everyone regardless of the application.?

I think perhaps I should contact some federal authorities on this matter. At the very least I will bet this product is not correctly declared for import.


That type of wire is fairly common. The big problem is the usage implied by finishing it up like speaker wire etc..

"Copperweld" is what it is.... I have some of it.

Evan
04-07-2010, 09:47 AM
This isn't copper weld. Copper weld is 40% copper clad and is used for antenna wire and power transmission in some cases. I just checked this under a microscope and the copper layer is only a tiny fraction of the diameter. It scrapes off instantly with a razor blade.

aboard_epsilon
04-07-2010, 09:59 AM
This has nothing to do with the so called Monster wire and it wasn't labled as such. I used that as a desciptive term because of the gauge of the wire. What it is is fake copper wire that is dressed to appear as real copper wire for a specific application. The trouble comes from the very real possibility that this wire might be used for some other purpose where the difference is of primary importance and could represent a safety hazard. It is clearly a deceptive trade practice and as such is illegal both in Canada and the USA as well as many other countries around the world.

This particular scam need not be limited to any specific geographical location and could well show up anywhere. Nor is there any particular reason to think it is limited just to this specific product. It could easily apply to just about any application that depends on stranded copper wire.

aha..........that explains why some of those monster chinese jumper leads sets for car starting dont work like they should do ...

all the best.markj

Alistair Hosie
04-07-2010, 10:56 AM
You're not alone Evan . I bought a pile of nice copper sheet and discovered when cutting it it's the stuff they use for circuit boards with a laminate plastic between still I'll do something with it.Alistair

gwilson
04-07-2010, 11:20 AM
WHY are you buying copper wire at THE DOLLAR STORE ?? I am surprised that you would do that in the first place,exposing yourself to the very greatest chance of getting the bottom of the barrel Chinese crap!!!

A probably stupid question: Doesn't electricity travel over ONLY the surface of the wire? This was found out many years ago. If the surface is copper,won't it work o.k. ,except for the steel possibly rusting . Just a question.

Circlip
04-07-2010, 11:39 AM
You should try taking a magnet with you the next time you buy some wire.

To be extra sure that they were fit for intended purpose, when I went to the local B&Q, I DID take a magnet to make 100% SURE that the copper roofing nails weren't copper flashed crap.

Yer can't kill rogue trees with non G E N U I N E copper nails.

Copper flashed steel cable has been used by the GPO/Telecom for "Speaker wires" over in the UK for decades, just being replaced with fibre.

Still don't understand how someone with a nanometric attention to detail thinks he's been "Scammed" with a cheap product. You COULDN'T have thought they must have underpriced it?? :rolleyes:

Regards Ian.

gnm109
04-07-2010, 11:45 AM
" Hey Fong, yu erd vis won? Some plick in Amelika bou sum of owr "Cheap" clopper wire and is comlpaining abow it."

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Before we complain about foriegn scams, didn't some form of quality control have to be instituted for checking the tension wires on the Brooklyn Bridge when first being built???

Regards Ian


Compraining, compraining, compraining. Rousy Customels! :D

Circlip
04-07-2010, 11:48 AM
Sirry irriots :D

lakeside53
04-07-2010, 11:50 AM
A probably stupid question: Doesn't electricity travel over ONLY the surface of the wire? This was found out many years ago. If the surface is copper,won't it work o.k. ,except for the steel possibly rusting . Just a question.

You're talking about "skin effect". Yes at higher frequencies, but that wire doesnt look like any quality RF cable.

RKW
04-07-2010, 12:11 PM
That WOULD sound like fun to me too but you will just end up looking like some kind of kook. As it turns out most people think magnets will still to any kind of metal. If you happen to mention the term ferrous you will get equally puzzling stares. I run into this sort of thing on a regular basis ...


Wow- what a scam! I think I'm going to take a magnet and some real copper to the dollar stores here and point this out- should be fun, especially if there's lots of people in there at the time-

Liger Zero
04-07-2010, 12:23 PM
Go to the Government product safety recall page, whatever it's called. Last I was there 99% of what I saw was "dollar" store crap... for electrical faults... heavy metal, tiny magnets, and just about every other reason under the sun.

Also, I had my own experience with Dollar Tree crap.

They had small frying pans for sale for a buck. Figured... hey... disposable frying pans! (I was mostly single at the time so shut up :p). Got one home, peeled the label off and put it on the burner with an egg. Within 90 seconds the paint was smoking, the "coating" on the inside was burning and smoke and fume was gushing from the handle, which proceeded to melt and slump.

Figured it was a bad one... tried another one with the same results.

Go next door try one on my neighbor's electric stove... same results, just took longer.


End of story, I don't shop there. between the pans of doom and the ****ty headphones and expensive "expired" food it's not a place for me... nor anyone else with a brain.

...Which is why I am surprised and SHOCKED that Evan would even CONSIDER shopping there. Come on man, you're one of the smartest people out there you should KNOW better. :p

Evan
04-07-2010, 12:52 PM
Copper wire is copper wire, IF it is copper. There is very little I buy there but wire is a good deal until now. I also buy cyanoacrylate glue there for 1/4 the price elsewhere. The Chinese make very good cyano glue. They also make superb ultra thin glass mirrors and very surprisingly their CR2 lithium batteries for 1 dollar are just as good as name brand batteries that cost $12 each. They also have name brand Panasonic 9volt alkaline batteries that really work for a dollar and excellent prices on large permanent markers. It isn't all crap.

This is an intentional scam, not a case of poor workmanship or lack of attention to quality control.

JCHannum
04-07-2010, 01:02 PM
Buying junk at a Dollar Store and complaining because it is junk is like buying drill bits labeled Made in China and complaining because they are made in China. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=27836&highlight=chinese+tools

Evan
04-07-2010, 01:10 PM
It's the same "junk" that YOU buy at inflated prices elsewhere, especially the items I specifically mentioned.

Liger Zero
04-07-2010, 01:11 PM
By the way Evan, no disrespect intended. I honestly though you were up on all this.


Most of those products are made as cheaply as possible. Take for example the bathroom cleaner that scorched my toilet bowl despite claiming to be Non Acid. Or the laundry detergent that was more or less scented syrup... no suds, no cleaning, just a fancy smell in a big jug.

Some of the food products... Expired but with a sticker over the original sellby date.

I would say close to 90% of the toys we tested with a home lead-check kit came back as positive for "excessive lead levels" and I know for a fact that the Consumer Product Safety Commission has hundreds of pages dedicated to Dollar Tree and Dollar General toys alone.


Why they are permitted to do this is beyond me... if it was K-Mart or Target there would be a huge cluster**** in the news over it. I guess because the Dollar stores pander to the low/no/welfare income markets it's ok to poison them and sell them dangerous items because they don't get represented?


Reprehensible behavior. And I won't support them.

krutch
04-07-2010, 01:11 PM
About 20 years ago, a guy where I worked went to replace a wall receptical in the house he rented only to find the whole front of the house was wired with telephone wire. The area wired so was a porch converted to a living space. I think he had about four or five 110v recepticals all wired with two wire phone cable. As I remember, he was haveing thoughts of buying the place before finding the 'phony' wiring.
Point is, who knows what Evan's wire might be used for if he hadn't found out about it. How much more is out there? How long is it going to take or lives is it going to take before China is excluded from our markets!
Krutch


Mentally confused and prone to wandering

Arcane
04-07-2010, 01:36 PM
Point is, who knows what Evan's wire might be used for if he hadn't found out about it. How much more is out there?
Krutch

Exactly. It's a counterfeit product and could just as easily have come from any highly reputable store and it could just as easily be found in any product made in China.

JCHannum
04-07-2010, 01:45 PM
It's the same "junk" that YOU buy at inflated prices elsewhere, especially the items I specifically mentioned.

You have no knowledge of my buying habits.

I do not buy junk at any price, inflated or deflated. I do not buy anything from the Dollar stores, Horror Freight, Enco or any of the other Chicom outlets. I do occasionally purchase from CDCO simply because I have met Frank and admire anybody who has the ambition he displays.

Liger Zero
04-07-2010, 01:51 PM
I do buy from China, but only if I'm 100% sure the product isn't going to kill me, and only if I can't get what I want from America or Europe.

You can find American Made stuff, you just have to look for it... and guess what it's not on the 99 Cent rack.

Buying American keeps people like me employed. :)

Evan
04-07-2010, 01:58 PM
This isn't about quality Jim. It is about an intentional scam that has the potential to be dangerous. I know more about some of your buying habits than you do apparently. If you buy any brand of cyano acrylate glue it is made in China as are most of the parts in your computer.

I have spoken to the owner of the local store and he called their technical staff that orders products. There were under the impression that what they were buying was copper clad aluminum. While that still isn't solid copper it is a safe substitute and is widely used in electrical products. I recently scrapped an old Maytag washing machine motor and the windings were solid aluminum.

When Carl went and tested his inventory he was appalled to find that it was indeed steel. He is very aware of the difference and recognizes that steel is not an acceptable substitute for copper or aluminum. Their technical staff will be talking to their suppliers as soon as they are available and he will keep me posted on the results.

JCHannum
04-07-2010, 02:06 PM
It is virtually impossible not to buy Chicom products today. But knowingly purchasing at the lowest rung of the ladder and expecting anything but lowest quality is naive pure and simple.

I am not an audiophile and do not purchase speaker cable. What potential danger could result from using copper plated steel for speaker cable?

Liger Zero
04-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Well for a speaker application you have more impedance so therefore your signal will be distorted because you have to turn up your volume control. That's how it was explained to me.

The real danger is someone using this cable in an application where they apply current and it heats up to a dangerous point. Steel wire is not nearly as conductive as copper.

Doc Nickel
04-07-2010, 03:09 PM
It is virtually impossible not to buy Chicom products today. But knowingly purchasing at the lowest rung of the ladder and expecting anything but lowest quality is naive pure and simple.

-While true in the general sense, in this particular case, it should have been a simple matter of copper wire being copper wire.

In other words, had the wire actually been copper, there'd be essentially no difference whatsoever between the "bottom rung" dollar store product and the $20 a foot Monster brand stuff, with the possible exception of the maximum capacitance of the insulation.

Yes, one should expect cheap and shoddy at the dollar stores, but one should also expect at least a minimum level of quality- IE, copper wire should actually be copper.

Doc.

aboard_epsilon
04-07-2010, 03:12 PM
Dont know why you are all having a go at Evan.

He has brought to my attention something that i didnt even realise could happen ..

I now know, why those cheap jump leads get hot and fail to start cars ..
The jump leads were not bought by me ....they were bought by friends .and i could never work out why i had to go home and get my own every time they broke down...........even though their jump leads looked great.they would barely turn the engines over .....always left me scratching my head .

Thanks Evan .another problem solved..........he may not be right about everything .but he is with this .people can easily be caught out .

all the best.markj

Liger Zero
04-07-2010, 03:20 PM
Dont know why you are all having a go at Evan.


I just figured that he was up to date on the Dollar Store stuff that's all. As I said no disrespect intended.




He has brought to my attention something that i didnt even realise could happen ..


Can and does happen, even with things like mills and lathes. China is all about making it happen for the lowest cost period the end. You want quality, go elsewhere.




I now know, why those cheap jump leads get hot and fail to start cars ..
The jump leads were not bought by me ....they were bought by friends .and i could never work out why i had to go home and get my own every time they broke down...........even though their jump leads looked great.they would barely turn the engines over .....always left me scratching my head .

Thanks Evan .another problem solved..........he may not be right about everything .but he is with this .people can easily be caught out .

all the best.markj


Headphones are another great example. I have a music pod I carry with me when I jog. Headphones tend to be a wear item, with the lead snapping or being pulled or whatever.

Figured for a buck they'd be perfect for jogging.

I got them, even turned up to maximum you couldn't hear anything other than a faint whisper. I got a second pair figuring they were just broken. Same issue.

Went to another store, got a different "brand." Same issue.

Took one apart, the 'wire' is two metal strands about as thick as cat's whisker held in place with adhesive then overmolded.

Prob'ly molded from PVC processed with white-lead based extenders and colored with heavy-metal bearing pigments to boot. :rolleyes:


Between this and the frying pan incident and the lead checks our church did... I refuse to shop there at all. Read the consumer safety commission pages... Its no wonder the dumb get dumber when you have a place like this in a low-income neighborhood.

JCHannum
04-07-2010, 03:33 PM
Was it presented as copper wire? Apparently the store owner was under the impression that it was copper plated aluminum. Would that have been acceptable?

Does it say anywhere that it is copper wire? If so that is a scam. If it was only presented as speaker wire, caveat emptor. You get what you pay for.

Tony Ennis
04-07-2010, 04:03 PM
Dont know why you are all having a go at Evan. He has brought to my attention something that i didnt even realise could happen.

+1

It never would have occurred to me that copper wire wasn't copper especially when it is packaged like the rest, the same brand as the rest, located with the rest, and not marked as anything but.


China is all about making it happen for the lowest cost period the end. You want quality, go elsewhere.

Yeah but this is about fraud, not quality.

Liger Zero
04-07-2010, 04:18 PM
Quality Control/Quality Assurance requires telling the truth. Otherwise you're ****ting in a box and putting a logo on it.

Black_Moons
04-07-2010, 04:44 PM
First off, Electricity flows through the ENTIRE conductor.
Higher freqency AC makes it flow less towards the center and more towards the outside due to 'skin effect' but at audio freqencys this depth is still several cm thick. So unless you run 2cm+ thick cables its NOT A CONSERN IN THE SLIGHTEST.

Second, 'oxygen free cable being 2% more conductive!' So that makes sound.. sound better? Wtf. No, it makes it sound exactly the same as a copper wire thats 2% bigger in diamiter. ie, as one with the exact same series resistance.

PS: 2% bigger oxygen contaminated cable = MUCH cheaper then 2% smaller oxygen free cable.

As far as cable inductance and capacitance playing a roll.. Sure, at 100khz+ Unfortualy no humans can hear that high, so unless your improving your stereo for your dogs sake..

Not to mention.. your speaker is a giant coil of wire.. with thousands of turns right next to eachother... thousands of feet of wire.... thin wire...
What do you think affects the sound 1000 times more?
PS: Speaker coil is likey not oxygen free :(

the wire to the speaker? or the inductance and interturn capacitance and series resistance of the speaker?

PS: standed wire is *LESS* conductive then the equivent size solid wire.
Why? because no stranded wire is well, solid, thiers air in there. Does air conduct? no. So theres less actual copper.
Does that mean stranded wire 'sounds worse'? No, you just use the next lower gauge number and its the exactly the same or better.

Evan buys doller store 16awg speaker wire because he knows unless they do something so retarded like replace the copper with steel, its gonna be just as good for sound as any other 16awg wire on the face of the planet.

On that note however I will say I have seen some cheap speaker wire start corrodeing much easyer then others, usally that 'clear insulation' stuff, as such I try to buy 120v AC rated brown lamp cord at home depot by the foot. a little more expensive but nice to work with and I don't see it just corrode. and a little more durable insulation.

Wires have 3 propertys: Capacitance, inductance and resistance. And guess what? Capacitance and inductance are mathamaticly too small to ever matter when you hook it up to a giant inductor known as a speaker.
Resistance is determined by gauge, and to a MUCH lesser extent bull like oxygen freeness. and as resistance is basicly the only thing that matters at audio freqencys, it should be the only thing you look at when selecting your wire.

And the insulation used is purely a *durability*/cosmetic issue, Nothing to do with the signal at audio freqencys. It does not affect inductance in the slightest, it could affect capacitance, but not by enough to matter.

Evan
04-07-2010, 04:52 PM
If it was only presented as speaker wire, caveat emptor.

Steel wire isn't speaker wire by any definition.

The amount of resistance is not trivial compared to copper or aluminum.

Copper is 1.678 per ohm-cm

Aluminum is 2.65 per ohm-cm

Carbon steel is 16.62 per ohm-cm

This is a case of a substituted product that is misrepresented and poses a possible hazard if used in an application where it should be perfectly safe.

Black_Moons
04-07-2010, 05:25 PM
Dang I got so busy on my speaker wire rant I forgot my other rant I wanted to make.. In that badly counterfit products and scams kill/injure way more then terrorists do, at least in north america.

Doc Nickel
04-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Steel wire isn't speaker wire by any definition.

-Well, as far as sales/marketing goes, I doubt you'll find a "proper" or "legal" definition for 'speaker wire'. (well, I suppose outside of military or aircraft specifications, that is...)

In other words, while there's endless codes specifying what size/gauge wire and what material wire can be used in what residential or industrial power applications, I suspect that, except for "industrial" speaker applications (concert venues and PA systems, etc.) there's no real specs for home-stereo speaker wire.

Meaning that your package of wire is not necessarily- by the letter of the law, at least- mislabelled or misrepresented, unless it says something like "solid copper" or "pure copper strands" or what have you.

If it says 'speaker wire', and the wire does, in fact, conduct well enough to make the speaker operate, it is, therefore, speaker wire. A roll of plain iron baling wire could be similarly labelled.

No, it's not right, and yes, it's a clear and intentional fraud, but really, for a home stereo, almost anything that conducts could be legitimately called 'speaker wire', since there's no real spec or requirements for the application.

I've actually run across similar situations, sort of. A friend of mine back in high school was installing a stereo in his car; his brother was telling him he couldn't use "regular" wire (in this case meaning single-conductor, opaque-insulation automotive wire) to hook up his speakers. He needed to use "real speaker wire" (meaning two-conductor clear-insulation wire.)

I showed up in the middle of the argument, and it took me about ten minutes to try and figure out just what in the hell they were arguing about. :D

On the flip side of that, I remember helping another friend, just a few years ago, put a cheap garage-sale CD player in an old beater truck. Since I was working in the friend's shop, I didn't have access to my supplies, and all he had was a set of cheap crimpers, a couple boxes of solderless connectors, and a big roll of Radio Shack speaker wire.

He was amazed- as in actually saying aloud- "You can do that?!?"- when I proceeded to use the speaker wire for everything, including the power connections.

Doc.

JCHannum
04-07-2010, 05:48 PM
This is a case of a substituted product that is misrepresented and poses a possible hazard if used in an application where it should be perfectly safe.

I ask again, was it presented as copper wire? If it was that would be misrepresentation. If it was represented merely as speaker wire, it is that, albeit not particularly good speaker wire, but potentially useable as such.

Misapplication of any product can present hazards and is done at the user's risk.

Alistair Hosie
04-07-2010, 05:48 PM
I doesn't actually sound like an intentional scam maybe you didn't get what you want but intentional scam (I wonder if that's not a bit too strong). It is probably just cheap wire. Sometimes when the price was low your not buying a bargain but a scam I wonder if it was so intentional.many things these days are misleading .A lot of things are to all appearance copper but are indeed plated .As I say I found this myself to my cost.I wasnt duped just the seller made a genuine mistake and I thought I was getting copper too.Any scrap dealer worth his salt will imediately put a magnet whenever anyone brings him copper these days.Alistair

Alistair Hosie
04-07-2010, 06:02 PM
Actually come to think of it when I bought an expensive stereo bang und olufsen I bought copper speaker wire as I was advised, and it was bloody expensive at the time.So maybe the cheap dollar store stuff should have made something set off alarm bells inside your normally very astute head, what failed this time maybe very serious wishful thinking I shouldn't wonder .IN anycase I suspect many are wondering why you named this post a MAJOR SCAM when were talking about a few dollars at most.:D Alistair

gnm109
04-07-2010, 06:07 PM
This isn't copper weld. Copper weld is 40% copper clad and is used for antenna wire and power transmission in some cases. I just checked this under a microscope and the copper layer is only a tiny fraction of the diameter. It scrapes off instantly with a razor blade.


It's clearly a fraud on the consumer. With all of the Chinese stuff coming into Canada and the U.S. I'm not surprised that something like this happened.

Lew Hartswick
04-07-2010, 07:28 PM
A probably stupid question: Doesn't electricity travel over ONLY the surface of the wire? This was found out many years ago. If the surface is copper,won't it work o.k. ,except for the steel possibly rusting . Just a question.
I don't know where you learned "electricity" but you were very
much short changed if that is what you were told.
"Sikn effect" dosent begin to be a factor till you get to pretty high
frequency.
...lew...

Weston Bye
04-07-2010, 07:55 PM
...PS: Speaker coil is likey not oxygen free :(...

Just so. But, speaker voice coils use magnet wire, a better grade of stuff, with oxygen intentionally added.


Q: What is the purity of the copper that goes into magnet wire?
A: Electrolytic tough pitch copper (ETP Copper, UNS C11000) exceeds 99.9% purity and is the most widely used type for magnet wire production. It is intentionally oxygenated (200-400 ppm) to achieve the best combination of conductivity, capacity for being cold worked and economy. MWS can also supply wire made from high purity (99.95%) OFHC Copper (UNS C10200) or Certified (99.99%) OFHC Copper (UNS C10100).


http://www.mwswire.com/faqs.htm#mw15

mototed
04-07-2010, 08:13 PM
Hey I look on product labels for content. I'll almost bet that the package did not say what the copper content was in the roll of wire. It was on the shelf
with the rest of the pretty coper looking wire at the store. Plenty enough gauge to wire a lamp with. If it was plainly labeled as steel wire somewhere on the package. even in fine print, thats a different story. They didn't label the contents of the dog food that killed two of my Great Danes. Here's one of them,http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc28/mototed/IMG_0158.jpg
The vet bills, Well I'd rather forget about what those cost. That protein substitute caused a really gruesome death. Yeah I'm a little sore over this.
Thanks again Evan for bringing important item to my attention. I would have never thought that a roll of wire was 90% steel.
BTW i do own many things that are made in the PRC.
Ted

Forestgnome
04-07-2010, 08:18 PM
There is really no reason to buy any special speaker wire. The differences between regular lamp cord (zip cord) and the most expensive speaker wire are going to be so small that I doubt that anyone could hear the difference in a blind test. The main purpose of these cables is to enrich the makers.
As long as it's big enough to handle the current.:D

J Tiers
04-07-2010, 08:49 PM
I don't know where you learned "electricity" but you were very
much short changed if that is what you were told.
"Sikn effect" dosent begin to be a factor till you get to pretty high
frequency.
...lew...
Phooey....

Skin effect works at DC, or as close to DC as we will ever get on earth........since our DC was turned on some time 'recently" and will be off again within a finite time...... so it os one half cycle of AC at a rather low frequency......

And even at lowish frequencies, skin effect works great, as at 60 Hz.... it's one reason why bus bars are generally flat and not round or square.

But for high resistance wire, the skin depth is a lot more than with high conductivity material. As with the iron wire.....

aboard_epsilon
04-07-2010, 08:49 PM
Hey I look on product labels for content. I'll almost bet that the package did not say what the copper content was in the roll of wire. It was on the shelf
with the rest of the pretty coper looking wire at the store. Plenty enough gauge to wire a lamp with. If it was plainly labeled as steel wire somewhere on the package. even in fine print, thats a different story. They didn't label the contents of the dog food that killed two of my Great Danes. Here's one of them,http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc28/mototed/IMG_0158.jpg
The vet bills, Well I'd rather forget about what those cost. That protein substitute caused a really gruesome death. Yeah I'm a little sore over this.
Thanks again Evan for bringing important item to my attention. I would have never thought that a roll of wire was 90% steel.
BTW i do own many things that are made in the PRC.
Ted

When buying "any" wire that is made for conducting electricity .........you and anyone would assume its a good conductor of solid cooper or aluminium strands/core ....if its not, its a fraud ..and it shouldn't be on any shelf ..in my country or yours.

all the best.markj

J Tiers
04-07-2010, 09:43 PM
BTW, I agree about not yelling at Evan for shopping at the dollar store.... The problems are NOT avoided by shopping elsewhere.

A few years ago, my wife and I were toy shopping for nieces and nephews... we were at K-Mart, which, for those living elsewhere, is a lower mid-market department store. Not super quality, but definitely not a dollar store.

I was not particularly interested in the selection of items for a 7 year old niece, so I was looking around a bit bored.... I spotted something, which I looked a bit closer at, and then I siezed one and headed up front, demanding the store manager...

What I found, was one of those little flimsy plastic mazes that you roll a ball around in to try to get it to the center. From CHINA of course....

The problem in this case was when the "ball" split up in several smaller balls and all were rolling around.... YES, it was mercury, in a flimsy plastic case, in the toy department area age-graded for 5-6 year olds.....

Now, I am not the type to evacuate the area for a spill of mercury, I know about powdered sulfur...... and my brains are probably already damaged from other causes.... But it did seem a bit excessive to have that in a toy, and a flimsy one at that.

The manager tried to assure me that "it's probably only colored water", but I wasn't having any..... And pretty much told the manager what for and how.... I suspect the manager was just waiting me out so she could get her hoofs back there and clear out the rest of them.....

I did notice that a couple days later when we "needed" to go back to try to find some forgotten item on someone's list, that every one of those things was gone. And it looked like some other items in the same area had gone as well, apparently at least one vendor was not too great....

The moral being that even a large corporation like K-Mart was then can get let in for a doozie of a bad product.

Evan
04-07-2010, 10:02 PM
It is probably just cheap wire.

Wire meant to carry electricity is not made from steel except in very exceptional circumstances that have nothing to do with wire sold to consumers or electric fence wire.

If it looks like copper it better be copper or it is without room for argument misleading the consumer. Even if it is copper clad aluminum it should say so but at least that does not present a real hazard if used for other applications. The rule of buyer beware does not apply any more than it does to the presence of deadly pesticides on the vegetables in the grocery store.

There is no good reason, at least until now, to suspect that copper wire isn't really copper wire. The saying is "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I won't be fooled twice, of that you can be sure.

I am amazed that you Jim or anybody else is trying to shift the blame from the maker of the wire to the buyer of the product. I didn't imagine you as a China apologist. This is clearly a case of intentional deception. That has nothing to do with quality control, here, there or anywhere else.

darryl
04-07-2010, 10:47 PM
I don't believe that not labelling the package as containing copper wire justifies in any way what has happened. Pretty much anyone who would be looking at that package is entitled to expect it to be what it looks like- speaker wire. That is the statement being made by the package and it's contents, regardless of the wording on it.

I have a bit of an issue with copper clad aluminum wire- if it's not labelled as such, you would automatically expect it to be copper wire, and you'd be correct to make that assumption. We've been dealing with copper wire for many decades, and we know what gauge is to be used for what currents, and we also know that there isn't a problem making the typical connections that we do- screw terminals on outlets, fixtures of all kinds, etc. What we also know is that there was a problem with aluminum wire connecting to all these standard things. In fact it was shown to be dangerous to use aluminum wire at one time. Do we know that copper plating it has solved that problem? Possibly, to some extent, but there's still the issue of thermal expansion, which is more than copper, and lower current handling capability than the equivalent gauge of copper wire. If you buy aluminum wire that's copper coated, you'd better know that that's what it is.

Back to the copper plated steel wire- in my opinion, whoever perpetrated this scam is guilty of reckless endangerment. It is a serious issue and should be taken that way by consumer protection people, and dealt with. As far as using it safely- heck, you don't even know if the copper will stay on the steel. You might solder it, and it may appear to be ok, but are you risking a bad connection developing where you can't even see it- probably. That stuff is worse than useless.

jkilroy
04-07-2010, 10:53 PM
BTW, I don't know if anyone else noticed (sure yall did) but copper wire has been down right cheap compared to a year or so ago. I went and stocked up a bit for future projects.

JCHannum
04-07-2010, 10:54 PM
I am not a Chicom apologist and have offered no defense of China in any of my posts. I do find it humorous that when someone posts about the total garbage China is sending over here, bad drywall, dogfood that kills pets and other instances that come to mind, you are the apologist. But when you are taken in by what is an obvious sham and typical shoddy Chicom merchandise, you are suddenly the offended party.

gda
04-07-2010, 11:12 PM
So - I'm actualy at a trade show in Las Vegas right now where there are reps from the UL. I gave them a link to this thread. They were interested since labeled or not they also realize that people may mis-use this wire.

Also - My friends with kids think I'm paranoid when I won't let my kids eat candy made in China.

dfw5914
04-07-2010, 11:22 PM
Also - My friends with kids think I'm paranoid when I won't let my kids eat candy made in China.

Very little candy sold in the US is made in the US anymore. Most (including the traditional US brands) is made in Mexico.

Doc Nickel
04-07-2010, 11:49 PM
So - I'm actualy at a trade show in Las Vegas right now where there are reps from the UL. I gave them a link to this thread. They were interested since labeled or not they also realize that people may mis-use this wire.

-Kind of like this (http://theoldvictorian.com/projects/lrelectric.html) or this (http://theoldvictorian.com/blog/2009/09/02/my-very-favorite-splice-part-deux/)? :D

Doc.

Glenn Wegman
04-08-2010, 12:03 AM
A pic of the packaging where it states it's solid copper would be helpful in solving this one.

Evan
04-08-2010, 12:48 AM
But when you are taken in by what is an obvious sham and typical shoddy Chicom merchandise, you are suddenly the offended party.


Exactly how is the deception obvious? I am pretty sure you don't check the copper wire you buy with a magnet. It isn't shoddy either. It very well made to look just like real copper wire.

dp
04-08-2010, 01:03 AM
It's threads like this that make me think some people are hooked on recreational bickering. It's obvious the wire is a scam and is also a danger to people who are already a danger to themselves.

Evan
04-08-2010, 01:05 AM
A pic of the packaging where it states it's solid copper would be helpful in solving this one.


It doesn't have packaging. It is wrapped several times with clear stretch wrap. The labeling is on the aisle display identifying each type of roll, it's gauge and it's length. What does it matter anyway? NOBODY expects speaker wire to be made from steel, especially when it has been disguised as copper. When it comes to a case like this in court the standard that is normally applied is what a "reasonable man" would expect to find the product to actually be.

example:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I00_0066.htm



In the matter of:

1 No. 63
Michael E. Stutman et al.,
Appellants,
v.
Chemical Bank,
Respondent.

2000 NY Int. 66
May 18, 2000

.....
Whether a representation or an omission, the deceptive practice must be "likely to mislead a reasonable consumer acting reasonably under the circumstances" (Oswego v Marine Midland Bank, supra, at 26). A deceptive practice, however, need not reach the level of common law fraud to be actionable under section 349 (see, Gaidon v Guardian Life Ins. Co., supra, at 343).

dp
04-08-2010, 01:08 AM
Phooey....

Skin effect works at DC, or as close to DC as we will ever get on earth........since our DC was turned on some time 'recently" and will be off again within a finite time...... so it os one half cycle of AC at a rather low frequency......

At 60 Hz the "skin" is close to 1/4" thick. Not normally something you need to worry about if the wire is less than 1/2" thick.

Evan
04-08-2010, 01:18 AM
Skin effect works at DC, or as close to DC as we will ever get on earth........since our DC was turned on some time 'recently" and will be off again within a finite time...... so it os one half cycle of AC at a rather low frequency......

Baloney. Skin effect only occurs when the field is changing. If the current is constant there is no skin effect since there are no eddy currents. Electricity has no memory of past events. The proper way to describe what is happenng is as a "state machine". If the state is steady the the skin effect is zero.

oldtiffie
04-08-2010, 01:28 AM
Maybe its the same as the copper-plated steel wire on big spools in and for my MIG welder.

Too_Many_Tools
04-08-2010, 02:17 AM
BTW, I agree about not yelling at Evan for shopping at the dollar store.... The problems are NOT avoided by shopping elsewhere.

A few years ago, my wife and I were toy shopping for nieces and nephews... we were at K-Mart, which, for those living elsewhere, is a lower mid-market department store. Not super quality, but definitely not a dollar store.

I was not particularly interested in the selection of items for a 7 year old niece, so I was looking around a bit bored.... I spotted something, which I looked a bit closer at, and then I siezed one and headed up front, demanding the store manager...

What I found, was one of those little flimsy plastic mazes that you roll a ball around in to try to get it to the center. From CHINA of course....

The problem in this case was when the "ball" split up in several smaller balls and all were rolling around.... YES, it was mercury, in a flimsy plastic case, in the toy department area age-graded for 5-6 year olds.....

Now, I am not the type to evacuate the area for a spill of mercury, I know about powdered sulfur...... and my brains are probably already damaged from other causes.... But it did seem a bit excessive to have that in a toy, and a flimsy one at that.

The manager tried to assure me that "it's probably only colored water", but I wasn't having any..... And pretty much told the manager what for and how.... I suspect the manager was just waiting me out so she could get her hoofs back there and clear out the rest of them.....

I did notice that a couple days later when we "needed" to go back to try to find some forgotten item on someone's list, that every one of those things was gone. And it looked like some other items in the same area had gone as well, apparently at least one vendor was not too great....

The moral being that even a large corporation like K-Mart was then can get let in for a doozie of a bad product.

If I had found those toys, I would have made sure that the Feds had visited Kmart...with a television crew in tow.

When you make a company an example, things get changed.

TMT

Evan
04-08-2010, 04:19 AM
Maybe its the same as the copper-plated steel wire on big spools in and for my MIG welder.


Only if there are mig welders that use wire about .005" diameter. It is irrelevant anyway. This isn't welding wire.

keelan
04-08-2010, 04:37 AM
You should send a complaint to the company.

Contact Us

For More Information in Canada:
Your Dollar Store with More Inc.
102-1626 Richter Street
Kelowna, BC
Canada
V1Y 2M3
Hmmm... I'm tempted to go buy some of the same wire and take a stop by their HQ with a magnet for a chat...

John Stevenson
04-08-2010, 05:37 AM
When it comes to a case like this in court the standard that is normally applied is what a "reasonable man" would expect to find the product to actually be.



There's the get out Evan, the court would only have to read this forum to grant exceptional on the word reasonable :D :rolleyes:

JCHannum
04-08-2010, 08:33 AM
Exactly how is the deception obvious? I am pretty sure you don't check the copper wire you buy with a magnet. It isn't shoddy either. It very well made to look just like real copper wire.

I don't carry a magnet when shopping for copper wire, but the steel jumper cables have been on the market for years, and I know enough to look at the cut ends for rust or steel before purchasing them or anything of that ilk.

It is an obvious sham in that it is a completely bogus product done up to look like the real thing. It is no different than fake circuit breakers, drywall laced with contaminants that will destroy your copper plumbing and wiring or pet food and infant formula that is adulterated with melamine.

You don't shop for speaker wire with a magnet, dismantle components or carry a chemical detection kit when shopping for dry wall, infant formula or pet food, nor should you need to. However, Chinese manufacturing is basically corrupt and will willingly foist anything it can on the market without regard of consequences to the consumer. There have been quite a few of us over the years that have pointed this out, while you steadfastly deny it.

J Tiers
04-08-2010, 09:33 AM
I had not heard about the steel jumper cables..... they are already about 18 gauge, with fat insulation, so why bother ,.... the steel and plating process probably costs more than the tiny thin wire that is usually used anyway.

I DO carry a magnet.... for checking things... Hadn't needed to use it on wire, but I may need to start.....

This whole china thing is adding insult to injury...... first everyone has to suck the jobs to china , then they send counterfeit products, as if the real thing wasn't already cheap enough.

pretty soon you'll feel lucky to be able to buy a cheap and shoddily made, but genuine product.......

The folks in otehr countries must get some real junk, if the small amount we do get it is making it's way here now....... I'd hate to see what you'd get in backwoods areas elsewhere.


Baloney. Skin effect only occurs when the field is changing. If the current is constant there is no skin effect since there are no eddy currents. Electricity has no memory of past events. The proper way to describe what is happenng is as a "state machine". If the state is steady the the skin effect is zero.

NO BALONEY, don't be a sham physicist..... Your arguments have no merit because you don't understand the point.

There is not, and never has been any DC in the world.

it all had a starting point.... and will end. it is basically a long period half cycle of AC. Therefore it has, at least in a theoretical sense, potentially not yet reached a state of equilibrium....

The current in a large wire takes a certain time to penetrate to any particular depth. The current in the center is asymptotically approaching the current on the surface.

I completely agree that in a practical sense, it is equal after a reasonable time, but looking at it from the purely theoretical point of view, it is not 'equal" until the difference is uncountable in terms of actual electron flow (neglecting Heisenberg) in electrons per unit time.

Asymptotic approaches are like that... theoretically they take an infinite time to reach the limit, which is my point. Naturally, eventually you don't care, it's close enough.

Black_Moons
04-08-2010, 09:50 AM
Naturally, eventually you don't care.
Nuff said.

Evan
04-08-2010, 10:21 AM
NO BALONEY, don't be a sham physicist..... Your arguments have no merit because you don't understand the point.


I understand your point perfectly. The problem is that it isn't valid. You can't integrate the properties of an electric current over time to arrive at a meaningful value for the present state. The definition of Direct Current is extremely simple and does not permit the existence of a skin effect. End of story.


Asymptotic approaches are like that... theoretically they take an infinite time to reach the limit, which is my point. Naturally, eventually you don't care, it's close enough.

It isn't asymptotic. Quantum effects don't work that way. Electrons can't carry infinitely small amounts of charge. The initial current surge will produce eddy currents that will in a very short period of time drop to precisely zero and not some small gradually decreasing value. The amount of current that flows in a conductor isn't infinitely variable. It is quantized. If you are going to pick nits then make sure you have them all accounted for.




It is an obvious sham in that it is a completely bogus product done up to look like the real thing.

It isn't obvious at all until after the fact. Hindsight is always so much clearer.


It is no different than ..., drywall laced with contaminants that will destroy your copper plumbing and wiring or pet food and infant formula that is adulterated with melamine.


Yes it is. However, that isn't under discussion.

JCHannum
04-08-2010, 11:59 AM
Yes it is. However, that isn't under discussion.

It is different only in that the wire under discussion does not pose any particular safety hazard if used as intended while the drywall has made thousands of homes uninhabitable and the melamine sickened and killed.

Evan
04-08-2010, 01:18 PM
It is different only in that the wire under discussion does not pose any particular safety hazard if used as intended while the drywall has made thousands of homes uninhabitable and the melamine sickened and killed.

It's different because the fault with the wire is undebatable, easily proven and clearly attributable to the source. Also, the items you mention have absolutely nothing to do with the manufacture of wire.

Let's try using a bit of your logic that propounds guilt by association. I am going to make a guess that you support the use of the death penalty for various crimes. I expect that has been your position for a long time. Until recently the US was one of the only nations that still executed children and adults that committed crimes as a child. Does that mean that you support the execution of children?

Circlip
04-08-2010, 01:28 PM
"Wunda if they gonna spot the non stlechy wubber bans we sendin nex weeek or tha grass paypa cwips" :D

JCHannum
04-08-2010, 01:31 PM
It's different because the fault with the wire is undebatable, easily proven and clearly attributable to the source. Also, the items you mention have absolutely nothing to do with the manufacture of wire.

The fault with the drywall and melamine adulteration is also undebatable, easily proven and clearly attributable to the source. The items I mention as well as your wire and drill bits and Jerry's circuit breakers are all symptomatic of the corruption of Chicom manufacturing practices.

Evan
04-08-2010, 01:37 PM
The simple fact that the Chinese can and do produce high quality products invalidates your argument completely. That is where your assumption of guilt by association comes in.


The fault with the drywall .... is also undebatable, easily proven and clearly attributable to the source

Not yet it isn't.

It also isn't clear that the wire is made in China, although it is probable. The 9 volt batteries I buy at the dollar store are made in Belgium and packaged in the US by Panasonic USA.

JCHannum
04-08-2010, 02:34 PM
The simple fact that the Chinese can and do produce high quality products invalidates your argument completely.

How so? All of the examples cited, including the drywall are proof that the Chicoms are also more than capable of producing substandard, adulterated product and do that willfully.

Circlip
04-08-2010, 02:41 PM
This wire is from China

Wow, wonder who posted this one??

Alistair Hosie
04-08-2010, 05:12 PM
Could it not be used for something else like gardening tie wire ? Then pay a bit more and buy some proper copper which is what you wanted in the first place. seems like your making yourself ill about a tiny problem calm down and just chill it is no biggy in the light of your health problems get on with whatever your doing previous to this and enjoy.My 2 cents

Evan
04-08-2010, 08:12 PM
How so? All of the examples cited, including the drywall are proof that the Chicoms are also more than capable of producing substandard, adulterated product and do that willfully.


Oh really? So you, who have virtually no experience with Chinese products by your own admission maintain that because there are SOME Chinese that are either incompetent bunglers or thieves and liars or both then automatically assume that all of them are the same.

You know what that is called?

Bigotry.

JCHannum
04-08-2010, 08:40 PM
It is not bigotry, it is a fact that this is the way the Chinese do business. I did not say I had no experience with Chicom manufacturing, but that I do not buy cheap Chicom tools. I have, in fact, several years of experience of dealing with Chinese produced components for manufacturing. This experience exactly parallels that of several others who have commented on this site concerning their manufacturing practices. They will trot out a product or component that is perfect in every way, and their first shipment or two will be excellent quality. After that the cost cutting begins and substandard quality and materials become the norm.

My youngest son works for a manufacturer of technical components. He is on a regular turn around schedule of a month in China every six months. It is necessary for someone from the company's upper management to be there at all times to keep them on the up and up.

Liger Zero
04-08-2010, 09:00 PM
If we are bigiots so be it.

I've lost jobs, opportunity and a career because America has been fighting an economic war it cannot win. Our enemy poisons our children, our pets, our homes, our food and we gleefully send them more money because of "every day low prices."

Many MANY of us on Practical Machinist, Plastics.com and even this forum have lost jobs, friends, communities to China's economic practices. It sickens me to see Chinese "sport bottles" on the shelves knowing we could be molding them here. Same thing with any plastic product. WE. CAN. MAKE. IT. HERE.

The aversion to automation and upgrading old equipment causes you to need more workers at a higher wage. Rather than do that we hire legions of disposable workers. Quality drops off, prices go up due to scrap and the company offshores the production line.

China can afford to cut us off at the knees. We however cannot afford to stand up to them.

Showing a dislike for Chicom products and services makes me a bigiot, fine. As far as I'm concerned there is a line. Those who support China and it's conquest of our country can stand over there and give your kids lead tainted toys, those of us who struggle to keep Manufacturing alive can stand over here and pass our skills on to our children.

J Tiers
04-08-2010, 09:45 PM
Evan is taking an extreme position (surprised?) but he has a point.

No. "the chinese" don't make counterfeit products.

"The chinese" make a wide variety of products, good, indifferent, excellent, and abysmal, including extremely high quality cameras, and 'fake wire", "fake circuit breakers", etc also.

They make all this because they have managed to create the fiction internationally that it is cheap to make products in china..... In fact, nobody knows how much it costs, because "the chinese" have not finished presenting the bills yet. And because currency manipulations have been made with the specific object of presenting an apparent low external cost.

Of course this is pretty much like the plant that entices the insect in with nice smells, and then holds the insect with sticky goo for later digestion.......

So... SOME CHINESE make fake products, poisonous medicine, poisonous food, counterfeits of legitimate products (I have personal experience of this last part, so don't even TRY to argue), etc, etc. SOME CHINESE make fake antibiotics and fake cancer treatments, from which thousands of people suffer and many die. These fakes are sold throughout South asia and Africa.

What Evan is doing is extreme, because he gives the *impression* that he denies, or persistently requires more and more "proof" that these things happen at all, or that anyone in "china" is in any way associated with them. This is behavior usually limited to anti-American dictators and leaders, such as Achmedinejiad of Iran, or Ghaddaffi, Saddam, etc , and their apologists. But to each his own.

The fact remains that "the chinese" are ONLY responsible for two things that contribute to the counterfeits etc.

1) rather obvious international manipulation to assure economic hegemony. Which of course they deny per the above plan (which Evan appears to copy).

2) The pattern of internal law and legal procedure seems to be an extension into the present of the past racist policies of china, in that "$crewing the foreign devil barbarians" is not going to be punished very severely, but doing that inside china, to chinese (not Uighurs etc, who are fair game) if it is allowed to come to the ears of the "emperor", will result in probable executions.

The $crewing" may be in terms of fake products, copies, theft of intellectual property (not recognized as 'real" in china), etc. That is up to the individual businessman. Some are very honorable and don't do it, some are dishonest scum with no compunctions about selling fake antibiotics to sick people.

The act of manufacturing these fakes, copies, poisons, etc, comes naturally from the total lack of oversight, lack of enforced laws, and in some cases lack of even legal recognition of rights which "the chinese" in the form of their government, allows, and may even encourage and foster as a form of economic advantage.

Evan
04-08-2010, 10:12 PM
Extreme position? That's a good one. Saying that the Chinese are a nation of liars and cheats is extreme. You seem to be forgetting that I brought this problem to your attention in the first place. If I were interested in somhow "protecting" the reputation of the Chinese I certainly would not do it this way.

Possibly the largest part of the problem is the constant demand for lower prices by the retailers of the products. Consumers have so little understanding of what makes a quality product that they focus only on price. I ran into this constantly in my computer business and it is an insoluble problem. There isn't the slightest chance that I can say to the average person that this mother board is better because it has twice as many decoupling capacitors and expect them to understand.

The fact is that the Chinese are still learning how capitalism works and they are learning it from a country with a long history of out of control corruption and disregard for the law. Why are you so surprised when some emulate their teacher?

gwilson
04-08-2010, 10:22 PM
It could be our own fault. We demand very low prices. An East Indian who owned a small factory was in a shop in Colonial Williamsburg,and a conversation started between him,and a friend of mine who was trying to get a small product manufactured.

the Indian said that India could produce good products,but the Americans just wouldn't pay for better quality. My friend made arrangements with the Indian,and for 25 years bought HAND FORGED and filed 18th.C. repros. He paid for good quality,and still made money re-selling them to other dealers,who again re-sold them.

No one had better say that I am an "America hater",because I most certainly am not. This is just the truth.

I definitely do not want to buy food or medicine made in China,and am thankful that my newish shop building doesn't have Chinese drywall.

Smokedaddy
04-09-2010, 01:48 AM
I ran into the same thing. I bought mine at ACE Hardware.

-SD:

dp
04-09-2010, 02:01 AM
It is not a problem we cause by wanting an affordable product. Even when we want an affordable product, we still want it to the the correct product. It is one thing to make an affordable sewing machine filled with plastic gears but which is fully functional, reliable, and does what it is advertised and expected to do. It is complete fraud to make a thing not only affordable but to go out of your way to make it appear to be something entirely different from what it is and what is correct for the application. Steel stranded electrical wire in not appropriate for much, and a thin copper coating that is intended to deceive is nothing less than fraud and results in a sale to someone who does not realize they are buying an incorrect product.

Circlip
04-09-2010, 05:57 AM
There are many times in these discussions (?) when the needle on my Bulls**tometer detector nearly bends itself in half hitting the upper stop.

All the drivel put forward about the inscrutible Chinese, the rip off retailers and everyone in the supply chain raking their profits. The fault lies squarely with the consumer. Joe public wants as much as he can get for the least possible purchase price so the only person to blame is the reflection in the mirror.

Clearly counterfeinted drugs are a different matter, and the background to this is a different point in the UK due to our "System" of health care and funding, but given the number of gloats on this and other forums never cease to amuse.

"I got a good deal"????? Get a life, there's NO free lunch. Perhaps the store next door selling what is intrinsically the same goods for a few dollars more will attract more business?? Yea, right. :rolleyes: I just saw a flight of Cumberland Whites pass overhead.

Regards Ian.

Evan
04-09-2010, 06:49 AM
All the other gauges of copper wire they sell are actually real copper. They are well priced but not below the price of copper. Neither was this particular wire. This is an example of ripping off the customer at every level by supplying a fake instead of the real product. It isn't a quality issue.

Incidentally, on the subject of ripping off the customer perhaps somebody can explain why a one pound spool of ordinary 16 gauge magnet wire is priced by Allied Electronics at 35 dollars. That is over ten times the price of copper and it was made on totally automated equipment.

Circlip
04-09-2010, 08:23 AM
Cos they CAN.

And just to clarify my point about the drug and medicine situation, NOBODYS health should be compromised in ANY way. It's just that in the UK. Many of the drugs are prescription ONLY so we can't dash into the local Chemist/Drug store and buy them over the counter without the sanctity of a cert. from the Doctor. The major Health Authoritys are being fooled with this, so as far as patients are concerned we can only go by what we are given.

Regards Ian.

J Tiers
04-09-2010, 09:34 AM
There are many times in these discussions (?) when the needle on my Bulls**tometer detector nearly bends itself in half hitting the upper stop.

All the drivel put forward about the inscrutible Chinese, the rip off retailers and everyone in the supply chain raking their profits. The fault lies squarely with the consumer. Joe public wants as much as he can get for the least possible purchase price so the only person to blame is the reflection in the mirror.


And the Bulls**tometer hit the top of the scale and BROKE with the quoted post above.

it is the ultimate in being an apologist..... for china and for greedy business people.

And it is dead wrong.

there is nothing wrong with trying to get things at lower cost. The poster does it, and so does everyone else, even in china.

Where the business apologist above misses the boat entirely is by assuming that people knowingly buy cheap and shoddy goods to get a lower price.

BUSINESS PEOPLE DO THAT, YES.

CONSUMERS TRY NOT TO.

The way the whole china thing came about is a big lie..... the big retailers, notably Walmart had a motto:

'WE SELL THE EXACT SAME THING, BUT WE SELL IT CHEAPER".

Now, who in their right mind goes out of their way to pay more for the SAME thing? Right, not very many people.

And, for a while Walmart and all were telling the truth.... they sold the same US made stuff for less. Quantity buying, and gouging the suppliers made it happen.

BUT OVER TIME... Walmart etc made it impossible for the suppliers to meet their prices unless they shifted production to a "best cost country"... code words for china. The suppliers were STUCK... they had a customer who was 40% of their business, and unless they wanted to lose that AND be driven out of business when their other customers went broke, they had to platy the game.

So instead of "THE SAME THING FOR LESS", Walmart began to sell CHEAPER GOODS REPRESENTED TO BE THE SAME AS BEFORE. In a way, these were already 'counterfeit".

The motto was not changed to read "We sell cheap imported goods for less than the domestic produced goods that provide your jobs".

IT WAS A LIE FOISTED ON THE CONSUMERS IN ORDER TO MAKE MORE MONEY FOR THE COMPANY.... SLIGHTLY CHEAPER SALES PRICE, MUCH LOWER COST FOR THE COMPANY.

So the bull crap apology above is just that.

The poster claims that somehow CONSUMERS went to china and bought cheap stuff...... NO. THEY WERE NOT GIVEN A CHOICE...... THE WHOLE PRICE BATTLE WAS FOUGHT IN THE CORPORATE OFFICES.

Consumers ended up with chinese goods simply by buying what were represented to be the same goods for a little less. CONSUMERS WERE DOING WHAT THEY ALWAYS DO, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

The retailers ALSO "sold" the idea that ALL consumers could now afford anything they wanted, because "we sell for less'.........

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED was that the corporations had to go to china or go broke, once the biggest retailers started the trend. That first company was probably Walmart, and you see how they have gotten incredibly rich by destroying the US economy.

THE BIG RETAILERS REALLY IN A WAY FORCED THE CHEAP GOODS ONTO THE CONSUMERS...... BY EXPLOITING THE NORMAL RATIONAL BEHAVIOR OF CONSUMERS THE WORLD OVER.

Circlip
04-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Ah, THAT'S where I'm going wrong, I hadn't noticed being assaulted by marauding salesmen, being turned upside down and the money taken out of my pockets.

No JT, not an apologist for the China syndrome cos I still have free choice and work on the assumption "If it looks too good to be true, IT PROBABLY IS". On the news at the moment is a report again calling for a ban on the drug Mephedrone, a hot subject over here. It has to be banned by LAW cos the dillies that take it need telling that it kills (although, this hasn't been proved). Another case of total lack of personal responsibility.

The whole scenario isn't restricted only to China, other counties over the decades have done EXACTLY the same thing to each other, including your own and I might add mine too so we're ALL guilty of it. Unfortunatly, at this point in time, it's THEIR turn to chuckle up their sleeves while they FORCE us to buy THEIR cr*p. Some might LOOK the same, but we REALLY know it isn't don't we?? and don't forget "Badge Engineering"

Regards Ian

clutch
04-09-2010, 08:57 PM
At 60 Hz the "skin" is close to 1/4" thick. Not normally something you need to worry about if the wire is less than 1/2" thick.

That explains why high tension power lines have been made hollow.

Clutch

Evan
04-09-2010, 09:48 PM
High tension lines are usually aluminum strand with a steel core for strength. For really high power circuits then the single lines are grouped in quads for each phase. This has the effect of simulating a large diameter conductor but it isn't about skin effect. It spreads the electric field over a much greater area so that the volts per metre gradient is much less. This greatly reduces the corona losses to the atmosphere.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics3/tlines.jpg

Arcane
04-09-2010, 10:02 PM
That explains why high tension power lines have been made hollow.

Clutch


I've seen some of that a couple of years ago. Several strips of copper alloy arranged in a slow spiral. They weren't all that thick, maybe .100, and had kind of a tongue and groove affair so they interlocked together lengthways. The conductor was about an inch in diameter...and hollow. I was told it was used for the transmission lines at the Hoover Dam power station.

Evan
04-09-2010, 11:28 PM
Those would be on the relatively low voltage side of the system and the reason for the way the conductor is constructed if for cooling. They can't afford to use copper on the main transmission lines. Not only is it too expensive but it is too heavy as well. The acceptable skin depth at 60 hz is about half an inch which means they don't worry about it until the conductor is more than an inch thick. For that reason buss bars are rectangular so that they aren't more than an inch thick.

J Tiers
04-09-2010, 11:36 PM
Ah, THAT'S where I'm going wrong, I hadn't noticed being assaulted by marauding salesmen, being turned upside down and the money taken out of my pockets.

Then you have not been paying attention.

Go and try to buy a common kitchen utensil of nearly any sort, and see how many are offered which are of local manufacture..... if over there is anything like here, you can't do it. The products are NOT available from anywhere but china, and possibly Taiwan/Vietnam/Thailand/etc.

I wanted to buy a regular drip coffeemaker... I wanted one without timers and other junk...... No latte/espresso/fru-fru, not over $100 or so, NOT a percolator, AND NOT made in china.

I went to dozens of stores, big, small, cheap, and high-end. I spent three or 4 weeks looking, because I am very stubborn.

I bought the least offensive chinese one I found, because there was NOT ONE COFFEEMAKER MADE ANYWHERE BUT CHINA AVAILABLE.

Yep, I had NO CHOICE..... I could get the same type chinese coffeemaker, timer and all, with minor cosmetic changes, from most any of the stores...... Some stores only had the fru-fru "latte/espresso" machines for $1200, which I was not interested in.

So tell me again how you have all this free choice of where your purchases come from? I will be very interested to hear all about it.:rolleyes:




On the news at the moment is a report again calling for a ban on the drug Mephedrone, a hot subject over here. It has to be banned by LAW cos the dillies that take it need telling that it kills (although, this hasn't been proved). Another case of total lack of personal responsibility.


You sound like the Mexican government...... They complain that if the addictive drugs were not in such demand in the US, Mexico wouldn't have a drug violence problem......

What crap...... the stuff is biologically addictive..... once a person tries the junk a couple times, usually encouraged by someone who would love to sell it to them, they are biologically addicted, it is virtually impossible for them to get free of the drugs. We are not talking about a "will power" issue, it is deeper than that.

"Reduce the demand" indeed. great idea, millions of addicts would like to know how to do that. I will be interested to know how the president of mexico suggests that is done.

And how he weasels out of his responsibility concerning this plague that comes from his country. We don't grow the cocaine source plants here........

You appear to have very little understanding of the problem, much like the president of Mexico.

***************

As for skin depth, that is a convenient fiction........ an equivalent depth. In fact, there is conduction further in, and less at the "skin depth" than at the surface...... it is a continuum...

When conduction starts, the current at the center is infinitesimally small while tehre is a finite current at the surface. and after infinite time, the current at the center is infinitesimally different from that at the surface.

The conduction at any depth increases with time, asymptotically approaching an even distribution throughout the conductor.

While electrons are discrete "items" (ignoring their wave characteristics), there are a very large lot of them involved in conduction of even one ampere, so for practical purposes they are infinitesimally small...... "Current" is an average number of electrons per unit time, in any given unit time there may be a couple million more or less and you'd never notice it, except as "noise".

The practical effect of the discrete particle "electron" is that it does not take "infinite" time for the current to be equal at all depths, simply because there either must *be* or *not be* that last "one electron per 1,000,000 hours" average difference between current at the surface and at the center.

the skin depth is also a lot more in high resistance material than in very good conductors. Theoretically zero depth in a zero resistance wire. So the higher purity of the copper, the shallower the conduction...... so much for fat oxygen-free wire, eh? ;)

Arcane
04-10-2010, 12:18 AM
Those would be on the relatively low voltage side of the system and the reason for the way the conductor is constructed if for cooling. They can't afford to use copper on the main transmission lines. Not only is it too expensive but it is too heavy as well. The acceptable skin depth at 60 hz is about half an inch which means they don't worry about it until the conductor is more than an inch thick. For that reason buss bars are rectangular so that they aren't more than an inch thick.


I'm not sure what voltage they used the hollow conductor for, the guy who showed me the piece he had didn't know.

As far as buss bars being rectangular, well, not always. :) Sask Power's switching stations and substations all use a very considerable amount of either pipe or tubing in conjunction with mulitstrand conductor. There might be some with rectangular buss, but I never saw any (with the exception of a couple of instances) in 35 years in the Line Trade. This is for 230Kv, 138Kv, 72Kv and 25Kv. One instance where I have seen rectangular buss was for convenience of construction on a 25Kv buss and another was a very, very low voltage bus at the local chlorine plant, now closed. (Huge cross sectional area on that!)

J Tiers
04-10-2010, 12:48 AM
I'm not sure what voltage they used the hollow conductor for, the guy who showed me the piece he had didn't know.

it's kinda old-school now.... hasn't been used for years.




As far as buss bars being rectangular, well, not always. :) Sask Power's switching stations and substations all use a very considerable amount of either pipe or tubing in conjunction with mulitstrand conductor. There might be some with rectangular buss, but I never saw any (with the exception of a couple of instances) in 35 years in the Line Trade. This is for 230Kv, 138Kv, 72Kv and 25Kv.

The point being that either flat rectangular bar, OR the same stuff essentially rolled up as a tube, is basically "wide and thin", not solid...... The shape has little to do with it, the thickness of material has lots.

In a big solid conductor, the interior would not be effectively used due to skin depth issues, so there isn't anything there... making it hollow. it's just like a rectangular bar, but rolled up to make it fit. If a transformer is wound with it, the "wire" will probably be flat and wide, because it fits better.

In some cases, but by no means all, that hollow may be used for cooling water. But it isn't there primarily for cooling in most cases, it is there because thick solid material gives no better conduction.

darryl
04-10-2010, 01:34 AM
I don't think anybody has mentioned this, so I will. It is appropriate to the discussion of skin depth- like charges repel, unlike charges attract. So we have this deluge of electrons, or holes- whichever way you want to think of it- travelling along a conductor. Whether ac or dc, the polarity of all is the same at any point in time, so as they travel along they are trying to get away from each other. Guess what they are restricted to doing- travel along the outer part of the conductor. The more of these charges there are moving, the more they have to occupy more of the room in the conductor. I think you could find that for a relatively large diameter conductor and relatively low current, the charges occupy only the thinnest surface layer. The smaller the conductor and the larger the current, the more the charges have to occupy more of the conductor. You could pass the steadiest of dc for a long time, and still find that if the current is light and the conductor fairly large, the current would still be found only at the surface.

This isn't to say that if you tapped into the center of the conductor and brought out a separate wire, that no current would flow out of it. It would, because you're leading it along another pathway. The current would flow along the skin, then some would divert inwards to follow this other 'escape route'.

Some more of my opinion- the reason that hollow conductors are often used is for the mechanical properties, not exclusively electrical conduction. I have to disagree with those who say flat bar is used because it doesn't have too much thickness where current won't flow. Flat bar is used because it's easy to bolt to, or to something, and the area for contact with a terminal can be higher for lower resistance.

Further- radiative effects, as in corona discharge, occur because of high voltage and frequency. Where multiple conductors are used, they are spaced apart because they interact less with each other the further apart they are, and thus the current they are carrying is more able to remain within the conductors. Where the current is dc, the effect is still mostly the same- the travelling charges still want to repel from each other. The capacitive 'phantom' current paths from the conductor to the air surrounding it will be higher with ac, and thus the higher the frequency, the more the current will want to jump off the conductor.

A look at dc vs ac power transmission would be informative. If it wasn't for the fact that ac is a lot easier to boost to higher voltages than dc, it wouldn't be used instead of dc for power transmission. Ok, let the flak begin-

Evan
04-10-2010, 02:55 AM
It's all about corona losses on high voltage transmission lines Darryl. Frequency doesn't enter into it as it is just as important on DC systems.



4.1 Number of lines in parallel
For point-to-point transmission in the 8 to 12 GW range, the table shows the number of lines required when using EHVAC or
HVDC at different system voltage levels. The conductor bundle configuration is based on the corona noise requirements at sea level.

5 Line losses
The design of conductors for EHVAC and HVDC lines are optimised with regard to the investments costs for the line and the
operation costs for the losses.
For EHVAC lines, the resistive losses determine the conductor cross section.
AC corona losses are important to the design of the conductor bundle. With only a few kW/km of loss in fair weather, the level
may increase 10-100 times during conditions of rain or hoarfrost and may reach several hundred kW/km.
The effect of altitude on corona loss is quite dramatic: at 1800 meters above sea level, the losses at any given weather
condition are four times higher than at sea level.
For HVDC lines, the selection of conductor cross section with regard to the resistive losses is done in the same way as with
EHVAC.
DC corona losses are, however, of less concern to the design of the conductor bundles, since the increase during rain or
hoarfrost is much smaller than with AC, only about 2-3 times.
The effect of altitude on the DC corona loss is similar as with AC.
Typical coronal losses in kW/km are shown in the diagram. When comparing HVDC and EHVAC line with regard to power
losses, the main difference is that corona losses of HVDC lines are much less sensitive to variations in weather conditions.


http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot221.nsf/veritydisplay/56aef360ec16ff59c1256fda004aeaec/$File/04MP0274%20Rev.%2000.pdf

The line in the picture I posted runs from the Bennet Dam to Vancouver. Over that distance corona losses are as high as 20% or more depending on altitude and weather.

darryl
04-10-2010, 03:28 AM
Thanks Evan. That was a good read. It's amazing how much loss there is in power transmission. I didn't know there was a pollution loss-

J Tiers
04-10-2010, 10:33 AM
That iron wire would be a remarkably poor conductor for audio, it has a significant skin effect at 60 Hz already..... at a few kHz it might be ridiculous.

Darryl:

A couple things...

1) Skin depth is not an electron repulsion effect......... repulsion of like charges is not the issue. The issue is electromagnetic, which is why the magnetic permeability of the conductor material is in the denominator of the formula. (resistivity is in the numerator)

Iron, which has a high permeability, has a skin depth of around 200 micrometers (vs 8700 micrometers for copper) at 60Hz. The magnetic effect overcomes the higher resistivity which would increase skin depth. Even copper wire with a diameter of over 2/3 inch is just wasting copper at 60 hz.

2) sure, it's easy to bolt to flat material, but anything over 2/3 inch in thickness as a copper bus bar will waste lots of material. And it's fairly easy to make flat bar as opposed to the same cross-section in a tube of some sort. Obviously any thickness over 2/3 inch is wasteful of copper, so a flat copper bar is as good as a tube. The tube is more compact.

3) one thing which saves large cables from being total wastes of material is the stranding of the wire. That stranding breaks up the solid cross-section into smaller pieces, the strands, each of which has a skin depth, but each strand is probably smaller than the skin depth.
Adjacent wires do not affect each other in terms of skin depth, although in real litz wire as used in inductors, the strands are braided in order to ensure that each is exposed to the same externally imposed magnetic field.

Solid wire is rarely used in transmission, so the skin effects are mitigated by stranding. But the diameter, or "pointiness" affects corona, so if you look closely at the bundles, you will see that the connecting hardware is all made to have rounded and non-pointy profiles.

The iron wire core is used primarily for strength (think ice storms), and to prevent the huge "bagging-down" in hot weather that the larger thermal expansion of aluminum would tend to create if the aluminum alone were used.

4) The often-cited effects of electromagnetic fields may in actuality partly emanate from that "pollution loss"...... Corona can act chemically on ambient pollution, creating new chemical compounds from the available pollutants..... The electrochemically created materials will of course be concentrated around power lines, and more so around high voltage lines........ Much the same locations where all the adverse heath effects are claimed to exist......

Deja Vu
04-10-2010, 11:09 AM
That iron wire would be a remarkably poor conductor for audio, it has a significant skin effect at 60 Hz already..... at a few kHz it might be ridiculous.

Darryl:

A couple things...

1) Skin depth is not an electron repulsion effect......... repulsion of like charges is not the issue. The issue is electromagnetic, which is why the magnetic permeability of the conductor material is in the denominator of the formula. (resistivity is in the numerator)

Iron, which has a high permeability, has a skin depth of around 200 micrometers (vs 8700 micrometers for copper) at 60Hz. The magnetic effect overcomes the higher resistivity which would increase skin depth. Even copper wire with a diameter of over 2/3 inch is just wasting copper at 60 hz.

2) sure, it's easy to bolt to flat material, but anything over 2/3 inch in thickness as a copper bus bar will waste lots of material. And it's fairly easy to make flat bar as opposed to the same cross-section in a tube of some sort. Obviously any thickness over 2/3 inch is wasteful of copper, so a flat copper bar is as good as a tube. The tube is more compact.

3) one thing which saves large cables from being total wastes of material is the stranding of the wire. That stranding breaks up the solid cross-section into smaller pieces, the strands, each of which has a skin depth, but each strand is probably smaller than the skin depth.
Adjacent wires do not affect each other in terms of skin depth, although in real litz wire as used in inductors, the strands are braided in order to ensure that each is exposed to the same externally imposed magnetic field.

Solid wire is rarely used in transmission, so the skin effects are mitigated by stranding. But the diameter, or "pointiness" affects corona, so if you look closely at the bundles, you will see that the connecting hardware is all made to have rounded and non-pointy profiles.

The iron wire core is used primarily for strength (think ice storms), and to prevent the huge "bagging-down" in hot weather that the larger thermal expansion of aluminum would tend to create if the aluminum alone were used.

4) The often-cited effects of electromagnetic fields may in actuality partly emanate from that "pollution loss"...... Corona can act chemically on ambient pollution, creating new chemical compounds from the available pollutants..... The electrochemically created materials will of course be concentrated around power lines, and more so around high voltage lines........ Much the same locations where all the adverse heath effects are claimed to exist......

I guess you said it all! ...now I can get on with existence.

Evan
04-10-2010, 12:14 PM
Even copper wire with a diameter of over 2/3 inch is just wasting copper at 60 hz.


Radius, not diameter. You don't get serious losses until the diameter is about five times skin depth.

J Tiers
04-10-2010, 12:59 PM
Radius, not diameter. You don't get serious losses until the diameter is about five times skin depth.


Diameter.....

the benefits of increased copper volume much beyond 2x the skin depth are outweighed by the cost of the copper.

"Losses" don't increase, you already have the losses, it's basically a waste of copper.

Evan
04-10-2010, 02:20 PM
Skin effect doesn't produce losses. It results in under utilization of the conductor, quite a different thing. Reducing the conductor radius to the nominal skin depth DOES produce losses both in I2R losses and ampacity. The nominal skin depth is calculated to be where the current flow is around 1/3 of what it is at the surface. It's cheaper to regain the lost capacity by increasing the conductor diameter to at least 3 times skin depth and up to 5 times skin depth depending on the application than it is to add another entire conductor.

Black_Moons
04-10-2010, 02:58 PM
The nominal skin depth is calculated to be where the current flow is around 1/3 of what it is at the surface.
Id like to just reemphise that line for everyone.
as in, at skin depth, there is STILL current flowing, its just 1/3rd as much as at the surface.
at twice skin depth.. there is STILL current flowing.. just much less then 1/3rd the surface current.

It does not all ride on the surface for AC.

PS: Larger diamiter conductors while not using the core so much, do have more surface area, and hence more volume of copper above skin depth.

darryl
04-10-2010, 04:06 PM
Ok, back to topic, which was scam speaker wire- I got an opportunity today to check into some speaker wire at a couple dollar stores. I only found one package, 18 gauge- and it was steel. I bought something else, but took the wire up to the counter with me and showed the cashier (the owner actually in this case) that the wire was fake. He was rendered speechless, and put the wire aside. Probably went back on the rack after I left. A couple of the customers seemed pretty intrigued by this attraction of copper to a magnet-

Evan
04-10-2010, 04:44 PM
That is not a good sign. It is definitely time to take a magnet when shopping for wire.

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 01:34 AM
Remember what i said above...... the permeability of teh wire affects the skin depth.....

Iron wire has a VERY shallow skin depth and at audio frequencies, will be very poor at conducting........ if that is speaker wire, it will likely suck big time, very possibly rolling off the high end noticeably. The skin depth is a lot less than with copper

About teh losses

As I said......

about 1 skin depth is the usual economic point of diminishing returns..... Since current is squared to get resistive losses.......

And the conduction is PER UNIT AREA

At deeper than 1 skin depth, the low current flowing doesn't amount to much power..... it's less than 1/3 that at the surface, per unit area AND the total conducting volume is less than at the surface, because the radius is less.

In a 3cm diameter solid round wire assuming a skin depth of 1 cm, the outermost 1 cm depth has an area of (1.5^2 * pi) - (0.5^2 *pi) = 7.06 - .78 = 6.3 cm^2. the 1cm diameter inner core has an area of 0.78 cm^2.

So the inner core is capable of conducting a current varying from 1/3 to maybe 1/6 of the total current PER UNIT AREA, in an area of about 1/8 that of the outer ring..... The outer ring has 88% of the conducting area... the core 12%, and the conduction per unit area in teh core is 1/3 to 1/6 of that in the outer area.

So simplistically, the inner core can conduct 0.33 * .125 = 4% of the current....... but it contains 12% of the volume and cost of the wire.....

IT MAKES NO ECONOMIC SENSE to use bigger wire than one skin depth.

dp
04-11-2010, 02:50 AM
IT MAKES NO ECONOMIC SENSE to use bigger wire than one skin depth.

The cross section of the skin area goes up with diameter. The diameter is an engineering decision - the wire needs to carry current at a certain frequency and amperage with a certain loss. In addition it may need to be self supporting. Sometimes the solution is to make a steel core with an aluminum outer layer. Or to use pipe. Or to use water cooled pipe.

I've been reading the details of the Pacific Intertie - a DC link between Celilo, Oregon and Sylmar near Los Angeles - 846 miles. One of the lines is a DC line with earth return. There is 500KV between the line and Earth at Celilo. I don't know what the voltage is in Sylmar. The cable is 1171mm in diameter with a steel core and aluminum outer sheath. This provides the needed conductivity and strength to be self supporting. There are two earthing stations, one at each end. The one in California is in the ocean and the other is in a 2 mile diameter ring of buried anodes near Celilo.

It would be interesting to know what the open circuit voltage is between the two earthing points. That would require a volt meter with very long probes. 1800 amps of current flow in the ground between the two points.

It is almost impossible to see the cables leaving the Celilo station on Google Maps. I've still not located the grounding anodes. They're near Rice, Oregon. I guess the thing to do is to go there and look for night crawlers on the surface.

This whole rig is prime for a CME event on the sun, an HEMP bomb (the cables cross the geomagnetic field at a decent angle), or a terrorist truck bomb.

None of this has anything to do with Evan's scam problem, like much of this thread, but it is at least interesting.

Black_Moons
04-11-2010, 03:27 AM
So simplistically, the inner core can conduct 0.33 * .125 = 4% of the current....... but it contains 12% of the volume and cost of the wire.....

IT MAKES NO ECONOMIC SENSE to use bigger wire than one skin depth.


You forgot one small fact:
a bigger wire.. has a bigger circumference.. as in, MORE surface area around it. Not just more metal on the interior, but also more metal on the exteriour.

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 03:33 AM
................................................

I've been reading the details of the Pacific Intertie - a DC link between Celilo, Oregon and Sylmar near Los Angeles - 846 miles. One of the lines is a DC line with earth return. There is 500KV between the line and Earth at Celilo. I don't know what the voltage is in Sylmar. The cable is 1171mm in diameter with a steel core and aluminum outer sheath. This provides the needed conductivity and strength to be self supporting. There are two earthing stations, one at each end. The one in California is in the ocean and the other is in a 2 mile diameter ring of buried anodes near Celilo.

It would be interesting to know what the open circuit voltage is between the two earthing points. That would require a volt meter with very long probes. 1800 amps of current flow in the ground between the two points.

It is almost impossible to see the cables leaving the Celilo station on Google Maps. I've still not located the grounding anodes. They're near Rice, Oregon. I guess the thing to do is to go there and look for night crawlers on the surface.

This whole rig is prime for a CME event on the sun, an HEMP bomb (the cables cross the geomagnetic field at a decent angle), or a terrorist truck bomb.

.................................................. .............



Interesting read Dennis.

Not wanting to high-jack the thread - which surely has been "milked" for all its worth by now - but I was intrigued by this not entirely unrelated article (3 pages):
http://www.infoworld.com/d/security-central/targeted-cyber-attacks-test-enterprise-security-controls-740?source=IFWNLE_nlt_wrapup_2010-04-10

aboard_epsilon
04-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Whilst we are on the subject of wires fields etc

can anyone take a look at this

from 2 mins on

and explain it away .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80z43IwWvI&annotation_id=annotation_430818&feature=iv

All the best.markj

Evan
04-11-2010, 10:02 AM
It is an ionized air accelerator platform. Using a grid of very fine wire with an array of fine wire points positioned above the grid a high voltage is applied to the points and grid. A corona forms on each of the points and the ionized air is strongly attracted to the grid. Those fast moving ions of nitrogen and oxygen entrain additional air molecules on the way which are neutral and pass through the fine grid creating a small amount of lift via Newton's third law.

I built one when I was a child. It is nothing new. The main secret as shown in the video is that the electrical connections to the power supply are made with extremely fine wire that doesn't show up well or at all in low quality videos. It has no practical application.

aboard_epsilon
04-11-2010, 10:20 AM
I dont know .if it could lift a small thing like that the same effect could be used to aid combustion of gasses .....stear them exactly where you want them concentrated, so get more useful output, out of something.

for instace you could get the combustion in a boiler to only combust around the walls of the boiler .so that there isnt any wasted combustion ..

all the best.martj

Evan
04-11-2010, 10:57 AM
I forgot that there is one practical application for the effect. It is the same basic principle used in the ion engines for spacecraft. The main difference is that the spacecraft engine must supply all the molecules to be accelerated from a fuel tank and there is no entrainment of surrounding gasses.

Of course, if you look this up on the net you will find "experiments" that purport to show that the ionic wind cannot explain how the device works. That is of course total bunk as this effect has been known for nearly 100 years.

Also, it is wise to keep in mind that the Internet is crammed to the rafters with BS. Perhaps the only even more unreliable source of information is the media. The Daily Wail is a case in point...

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 11:27 AM
You forgot one small fact:
a bigger wire.. has a bigger circumference.. as in, MORE surface area around it. Not just more metal on the interior, but also more metal on the exteriour.


Nope, forgot NOTHING.....

circumference goes up as 1st power of radius....

VOLUME GOES UP AS THE SQUARE

You pay for more VOLUME than you get back as area.....

The sensible thing, which is what is actually done, is to remove the useless center area, leaving a tube.

That lets you HAVE the surface, WITHOUT paying for the useless volume in teh middle.

Then you have a choice as to how thick you make the tube.

But for a solid conductor, more than one skin depth of radius is worthless and wasteful.

Evan
04-11-2010, 12:20 PM
The utilities use a rule called 100% skin depth for sizing conductors which is a radius of approximately 1.5 to 2 times the nominal 2/3 skin depth. That is what they use to determine the ampacity of a conductor and it is when that isn't sufficient that they bite the bullet and go to the considerable extra expense of running another conductor. A conductor that is only carrying a third more than it would if sized to the nominal skin depth is a very good deal if it saves running another thousand miles of a similar conductor. The cost of the conductor is not the only consideration. BTW, copper is hardly used in power transmission. The standard is 6061 T6 aluminum and occasional fully annealed aluminum.

darryl
04-11-2010, 05:31 PM
Just a question here, somewhat related- what ever happened to aluminum wiring in homes, etc? There was an issue of the connections loosening after awhile because of the thermal expansion of aluminum and the subsequent worsening of that with the heat developed by the connection becoming loose in the first place.

Obviously the power companies have solved this issue because they have thousands of miles of aluminum wiring strung all over the countryside.

Jim Shaper
04-11-2010, 05:44 PM
AL is still allowed in homes for heavier load branches. You can't use it in the walls for 120v, but you can use it for water heaters, ovens, AC, etc.

The connectors need to also be rated for AL or Cu for it to be legal.

gnm109
04-11-2010, 07:39 PM
Just a question here, somewhat related- what ever happened to aluminum wiring in homes, etc? There was an issue of the connections loosening after awhile because of the thermal expansion of aluminum and the subsequent worsening of that with the heat developed by the connection becoming loose in the first place.

Obviously the power companies have solved this issue because they have thousands of miles of aluminum wiring strung all over the countryside.

My home has aluminum for the major 220 VAC circuits. I think it wil be OK but you never know. It's only been in there for 34 years now...:D


.

dp
04-11-2010, 08:37 PM
Nope, forgot NOTHING.....

circumference goes up as 1st power of radius....

VOLUME GOES UP AS THE SQUARE

You pay for more VOLUME than you get back as area.....

Skin depth is a function of frequency. Resistance is a function of skin depth. To lower resistance you need more material. Even if it means it costs more. Carrying 1800 amps on a 1" wire is not going to work. You need more conducting skin and you can only get that by larger diameter wire.

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 11:50 PM
Skin depth is a function of frequency. Resistance is a function of skin depth. To lower resistance you need more material. Even if it means it costs more. Carrying 1800 amps on a 1" wire is not going to work. You need more conducting skin and you can only get that by larger diameter wire.

Which is commonly obtained by a generally tubular construction, because the material in the middle is not going to do any work anyway, but you still have to buy it if you use solid wire/bus bar.

The powerco is acutely aware of the cost of fixed plant..... and of losses. They have been at balancing the first cost against ongoing losses for longer than any of us has been alive, figuring the best balance for their operations.

dp
04-12-2010, 01:14 AM
Which is commonly obtained by a generally tubular construction, because the material in the middle is not going to do any work anyway, but you still have to buy it if you use solid wire/bus bar.

That's an odd way of saying "I'll be damned, your right!" but I'll take it.

Evan
04-12-2010, 04:50 AM
Here is a little factoid about substituting metals in conductors that very few people know about. I wonder how many of these items were missed in the accounting and are still in service somewhere?



Not well known is a contribution made by the U.S. copper industry to the Manhattan Project during World War II. There was an urgent need for copper bus bars for the Uranium 235 extraction facility in Oak Ridge, Tenn. Because all available copper was being directed to the conventional war effort, a substitute material with comparable electrical conductivity was needed. (The electrical conductivity of silver is rated at 104% IACS, whereas copper is rated at 100% IACS, which made it a suitable substitute.)

Some 700 million troy ounces of pure silver (equivalent to today's ASTM B413 (Specification for Refined Silver) Grade 99.95 (UNS P07015)) were borrowed from the U.S. Treasury and shipped to the U.S. Metals Refining Company (USMR) in Carteret, N.J., remelted and cast into pure silver wire bars. The wire bars were then shipped to Phelps Dodge's Elizabeth, N.J., facility for rolling into bus bars (equivalent to today's ASTM Specification B187, for Copper Bar, Bus Bar, Rod and Shapes). In the late 1970s, the silver bus bars were removed from service, returned to USMR for melting, refining, and casting as 1,000-troy ounce ingots and returned to the Treasury.


http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/1998/11/astm.html

J Tiers
04-12-2010, 09:26 AM
That's an odd way of saying "I'll be damned, your right!" but I'll take it.

????? seems odd

I dealt with the tubular/flat conductor thing in detail long ago in this mess of a thread.

A "tube" is not the same thing as a "larger diameter wire"...... "wire" is solid.

larger "wire" is wasteful of conductor mass.

Earlier, some others were were apparently also suggesting using vastly oversized solid conductors, suggesting it was sensible because conduction still existed way inside the conductor, even if it was low... I pointed out the fact that the cost of the conductor in the middle was not paying back in usable conductivity.

A larger tube, as I pointed out previously, is the same thing as a flat bar conductor..... it's just rolled up.... and provides the USEFUL cross-section without that being at the cost of having a lot of useless mass of non-working conductor.... Wider flat bar, larger diameter tube... all same-same

Circlip
04-12-2010, 09:31 AM
Thought we'd dealt with the original "Major Scam" long ago but here we are on page 15 reply No 144, no No 145 :D

Regards Ian. Cheap fry pan in hand.

John Stevenson
04-12-2010, 09:41 AM
Wait until it catches swine flu Ian.

That will get the posting up.

Circlip
04-12-2010, 09:44 AM
Me appointments at three this very afternoon John:(

Circlip
04-12-2010, 11:39 AM
Stand easy, just a case of the bronicals:D

Edwin Dirnbeck
03-04-2016, 09:16 PM
"Oxygen free Copper wire"

Now there's a piece of Audio salesmans bulls**t to ponder on.

Bit like the term "Musicality" bandied about thirty years ago by the Hi-Fli all knowing.

Regards Ian (Ex Leak & Wharfedale)
I feel like I am hijacking this thread,but your reply reminded me of the 1970s hi-fi magazine that had a guy breathlessly comparing 5 diferent hi end cartrages or whatever they were called that went on the arm of the record player and held the needle.Edwin Dirnbeck

flylo
03-04-2016, 09:21 PM
Some days I feel stuck in the wayback machine:confused:

daveo
03-04-2016, 10:12 PM
Holy smokes! Dead thread is back!

RussZHC
03-04-2016, 11:05 PM
Not the end, there is now more than a bit of a pattern, likely around a dozen more old threads will be unearthed in the next day or two. Esp as this one is somewhat related to a brand new one...ITS getting old.

Evan
03-05-2016, 01:49 AM
So, I finally decide to drop by and see a thread of mine near the top. I guess that is likely to happen even when I am dead and gone.

I am gradually getting ready to move to Victoria but I must wait until the apartment I want has a vacancy. I have all sorts of things worked out now. Will also have a divorce within a couple of days since March 6 is the one year date of our breakup. Not something I ever though I would see and not something I ever even thought about at all. But, while it takes two to marry it only takes one to break it.

I'm finally getting over it and now looking forward. Got all sorts of things about to happen. I won't be on here much until I get settled in my new place. That won't be for a couple of months at the very soonest and could be longer. Summer is moving season though so I expect a vacancy soon. I'm going to be heading down to Victoria near the end of this month to check in at the apartment I want so I will be at the top of the list for when one becomes available. I am really looking forward to living in a place that has 600 to 850 square feet of polished concrete floor 1.5 feet thick. I will even be allowed to park my electric motorbike inside (not yet purchased) and they have a freight elevator to the upper floors.

I'm not sure if I mentioned that my Hep C treatment is 100% successful, but it is. Two blood tests in a row and it is undetectable. Sure is nice to feel so clean inside.

PStechPaul
03-05-2016, 03:13 AM
I rather enjoyed this resurrected thread. Lots of opinions and rants interspersed by some facts. ;)

George Seal
03-05-2016, 08:10 AM
Evan

Glad to hear you are getting things in order
Sorry for the divorce but maybe for the better

yes your post will be here long after your gone because they contain a lot of useful information

Live long and prosperous my friend

Forestgnome
03-05-2016, 10:18 AM
I can tell you that speaker wire does change things in an audio system. The resistance and capacitance of your wires has the same effect a passive crossover network does in delivering the frequency ranges to the drivers.

My speaker cables are nothing more than plenum grade cat5 cable braided 3 to a speaker and then having the twisted pairs split to make positive and negative leads. They sound better than all the high end cables they've been A/B/X'd against and cost all of about 5 bucks when I made them.

There's few things more fun than bringing in a home brewed pair of cables to a snooty audio boutique and having the salesman (reluctantly) agree your cables sound better than his after he thought he'd been voting for his house favorite. :D

I would say that the really high-end speaker cables are probably not discernible from good, consumer-grade cable like Monster. I found a pretty good lab test of some cables here: http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf

What I see as the best indicator are the pulse images on the last page. Pulses are very good indicators of response. Looking at those I think I'll stick with 8 ohm speakers. Check out the differentiation that goes on with the 5 ohm loads. 8 ohms looks much more forgiving. That said, I think your CAT 5 cables would likely match the best in that test.

Danl
03-05-2016, 10:26 AM
I would say that the really high-end speaker cables are probably not discernible from good, consumer-grade cable like Monster. I found a pretty good lab test of some cables here: http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf

What I see as the best indicator are the pulse images on the last page. Pulses are very good indicators of response. Looking at those I think I'll stick with 8 ohm speakers. Check out the differentiation that goes on with the 5 ohm loads. 8 ohms looks much more forgiving. That said, I think your CAT 5 cables would likely match the best in that test.

Wow, a 6 year old thread topped with link to a 36 year old study. I understand audiophiles are returning to earlier lives with vacuum tube amps, and even vinyl LP's. This is great stuff.

Dan L

Blue Mule
03-05-2016, 07:50 PM
True. If you run a couple of 6L6s hot enough to about soften the glass, you can use anything you want for speaker wire - zip cord, old barbed wire, paper clips, picture wire, etc. If you like listening to Link Wray, tubes is the only way to go!

Black_Moons
03-05-2016, 08:31 PM
I would say that the really high-end speaker cables are probably not discernible from good, consumer-grade cable like Monster. I found a pretty good lab test of some cables here: http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf

What I see as the best indicator are the pulse images on the last page. Pulses are very good indicators of response. Looking at those I think I'll stick with 8 ohm speakers. Check out the differentiation that goes on with the 5 ohm loads. 8 ohms looks much more forgiving. That said, I think your CAT 5 cables would likely match the best in that test.

Or discernible from lamp cord of the equivalent gauge. Those ultra low impedance but VERY high capacitance cables are most likely coax BTW.

Also I love there 'no termination' charts. Because clearly what is most important in a speaker cable, is how it acts without a speaker attached and how it rings when given a signal with such a high frequency (200khz) that even bats can't hear it, never mind the resulting 1mhz+ ringing that wouldn't ever have happened if you connected so much as a 100ohm load on the end (or fed the cable with a sine wave, and not a 200khz square wave with harmonics into the 1mhz+ range)


Save your money on speaker wire and buy a higher grade speaker, by FAR the most inaccurate piece of equipment in your sound reproduction chain.

While a solid state amplifier or cable might introduce 0.1% error, you'll find your speakers introducing 10% error at best over the most flat part of their response range (say 1khz to 2khz, very small range of very common audio frequencies). You do know what response range is right? that is the range where your speakers only have 3db (Aka: twice as much perceived loudness) in error. Aka: -50% or +100% error, depending on what way you want to look at it.