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Ed P
04-09-2010, 09:59 AM
This is an organization that was started to get kids interested in making things, using their hands, getting involved in manufacturing. It amazed me that it was started by an actor (John Ratzenberger from "Cheers"). I thought Hollywood didn't even know what manufacturing was, well at least one of them does. In the article in the ASME journal he said something that blew me away. "I found out that kids were graduating high school and couldn't read a ruler. One company asked applicants to mark 1 3/8 inches on a picture of a ruler. So many couldn't do it, they had to change it to a multiple choice question. They had to start a program to train employees to use such basic tools as channel locks, screwdrivers, and vise grip pliers". Man that's depressing. I hate to say it but this country is not on the way to the dumps, it past that turn off a while back.

http://www.nutsandboltsfoundation.org/About-NBT.cfm

Ed P

Spin Doctor
04-09-2010, 10:02 AM
That's alright, we'll just graduate more lawyers and MBA's :D

Ken_Shea
04-09-2010, 10:54 AM
This is an organization that was started to get kids interested in making things, using their hands, getting involved in manufacturing. It amazed me that it was started by an actor (John Ratzenberger from "Cheers"). I thought Hollywood didn't even know what manufacturing was, well at least one of them does. In the article in the ASME journal he said something that blew me away. "I found out that kids were graduating high school and couldn't read a ruler. One company asked applicants to mark 1 3/8 inches on a picture of a ruler. So many couldn't do it, they had to change it to a multiple choice question. They had to start a program to train employees to use such basic tools as channel locks, screwdrivers, and vise grip pliers". Man that's depressing. I hate to say it but this country is not on the way to the dumps, it past that turn off a while back.

http://www.nutsandboltsfoundation.org/About-NBT.cfm

Ed P

That may be true but you have to remember that many many young people today can.....name every pro foot ball player by name and position, all the rock band group's names and songs (I guess that is what they are called) , the latest and best video games and text at the speed of light. Not a big deal that they can't read a ruler or tie their own shoes. :rolleyes:

Tony Ennis
04-09-2010, 11:02 AM
Would you be surprised if they couldn't make a knife from flint and run down a rabbit?

Ken_Shea
04-09-2010, 11:04 AM
Would you be surprised if they couldn't make a knife from flint and run down a rabbit?

I would be surprised if they knew what flint was !

dvbydt
04-09-2010, 11:13 AM
Ed,

We have a similar educational initative here in the UK. I am one of many Imagineering Tutors (voluntary, unpaid!) and we run after school clubs, introducing 11-12 year old children to the wonderful world of engineering and science. Their response and involvement is reward enough.

For projects see here :-

http://www.imagineeringweb.co.uk/webpages/03_projects.shtml

The other organisation is STEMnet see :-

http://www.stemnet.org.uk/home.cfm

By default, I am also STEM Ambassador because I know a bit about science and maths.

IanR

ADGO_Racing
04-09-2010, 11:58 AM
Not being able to read a ruler is just the beginning. I know three recent "HS Grads" who cannot read a tape measure! Two of them used to work for a friend of mine. He thought teaching them would be a good idea. He figured he would start with 1/4 inch increments. He asked them how many quarters are in a dollar, the answer: Huh, Ummm, I dunno.....three?

The third one is currently becoming a nurse. His father says he has stellar grades. Is about to graduate as a licensed nurse and join the work force. :eek:

As a fellow engineer mentioned the other day, he has NO concept what a CC is. Without the ability to measure something, he has no concept of 1.0 cm x 1.0 cm x 1.0 cm. filled with water at a specific temperature being 1 CC.

Looking forward, unless there is a drastic change, I think when the day comes to consider an old folks home, I will just take my chances at home...Or just crawl out in the woods and die peacefully. Either way the end result will be the same, but I fear they may accidently prolong the process in the old folks home!:eek:

nearbeer
04-09-2010, 12:04 PM
What is not being said here is how involved the parents are in the child's life...

School and the workplace are poor substitutes for teaching your kids to be successful in life...an involved mother and father can do wonders for their kids.

It is for reasons like this that I invite my son to help me on my '65 Mustang Fastback or I drag him to watch his grandfather work in his shop.

Too_Many_Tools
04-09-2010, 12:08 PM
Kids become what their parents and society wants them to.

I learned this years ago as I watched industrial arts programs dismantled.

No one wanted to pay extra in taxes to keep them in place.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
04-09-2010, 12:13 PM
This is an organization that was started to get kids interested in making things, using their hands, getting involved in manufacturing. It amazed me that it was started by an actor (John Ratzenberger from "Cheers"). I thought Hollywood didn't even know what manufacturing was, well at least one of them does. In the article in the ASME journal he said something that blew me away. "I found out that kids were graduating high school and couldn't read a ruler. One company asked applicants to mark 1 3/8 inches on a picture of a ruler. So many couldn't do it, they had to change it to a multiple choice question. They had to start a program to train employees to use such basic tools as channel locks, screwdrivers, and vise grip pliers". Man that's depressing. I hate to say it but this country is not on the way to the dumps, it past that turn off a while back.

http://www.nutsandboltsfoundation.org/About-NBT.cfm

Ed P

I wish the organization the best of luck.

TMT

saltmine
04-09-2010, 02:00 PM
It's a crying shame the schools are phasing out "industrial arts" programs in favor of "music appreciation" and "modern dance" classes....

I guess we need more "Rappers" and "fairy dancers" in the world.

Of course, there's always the "exception" to the rule....

My Grand Niece, two years old. She has an amazing attraction to my brother's Logan Cabinet Lathe. She can sit and watch him work for hours, of course, asking a million questions while he works. Even at two, she has amazing manual dexterity. The kid peeled the shell off of a raw egg, without breaking it (she's handy to have around when you have hard boiled eggs, too)
She's also facinated with anything that moves...cars, bikes, airplanes.
It's sad that a kid like that won't have the opportunity to learn wood or metalworking in school....I guess Grandpa will have to teach her.

Mike Folks
04-09-2010, 05:40 PM
If possible teach her how to change the oil in her car and basic tune up procedures.

Also check oil levels and tire pressures when cold.

davidh
04-09-2010, 05:45 PM
Ed,

We have a similar educational initative here in the UK. I am one of many Imagineering Tutors (voluntary, unpaid!) and we run after school clubs, introducing 11-12 year old children to the wonderful world of engineering and science. Their response and involvement is reward enough.

For projects see here :-

http://www.imagineeringweb.co.uk/webpages/03_projects.shtml

The other organisation is STEMnet see :-

http://www.stemnet.org.uk/home.cfm

By default, I am also STEM Ambassador because I know a bit about science and maths.

IanR


my hat is off to you. what a great thing you are doing for the youngsters.

gwilson
04-09-2010, 06:12 PM
When I was teaching drafting and shop in the 60's,I always taught my students to read a ruler down to 1/32". I drilled it into them for a few weeks. I found out early on that many couldn't read below a whole inch.

A friend who worked in a ship yard told me about the guy who was in charge of cutting big pieces of steel plate. He would only cut to whole inches,because he couldn't read a ruler either. I guess the welders had to build up the extra needed steel when putting the part in place ?

Doc Nickel
04-09-2010, 06:37 PM
Would you be surprised if they couldn't make a knife from flint and run down a rabbit?

-While we have no need to make knives from flint or to catch our own food these days, there will always be a need for people to design and build things.

Even if we get to the "Star Trek" stage where every home has a replicator, somebody still has to build the replicator.

No matter how advanced our civilization gets, people will need to make and use tools. The tools of the future may well include a hover-excavator that uses a disintegrator beam instead of a shovel, but you can damn well guarantee that a couple of guys with open-end wrenches, phillips screwdrivers and at least one two-pound sledge actually assembled it.

Doc.

Spin Doctor
04-09-2010, 09:45 PM
Just watch one of the Home Improvement Networks for a while. HGTV is a good example. They get these home owners who if they are involved in a project don't even know how to drive a nail. Much less anything more complicated.

darryl
04-09-2010, 10:55 PM
It's kids like saltmines grand niece who will probably have to lead another revolution to re-industrialize america.

There was a guy at work who impressed me with his aptitude for mechanical and electrical things- I took the opportunity to show him some things to help both him and the job he was doing. Then the boss came along and told him he was incapable of working on things that were electrical or electronic, and sent him back to pushing the hand cart. WTF? Now here I am, wasting my skills checking out heating blankets and coffee makers, while this young fella has been laid off. Good worker, smart, capable- I guess our company doesn't need people like that-

By the way, a rabbit is something similar to an ipod isn't it :)

wooleybooger
04-09-2010, 11:10 PM
Im 51 years old and agree with all said but most of us came from a time when people fixed things to get a few more months or years of service from it until the family saved enough to buy a new one. now its take it back or throw it away. i take care of the tractors and equipment on a large ranch and am amazed at the mechanical ineptitude of some of the young guys. that being said i feel a degree of ineptness when we have a problem with a newer tractor and the mechanic comes out and plugs a laptop into the tractor instead of opening a big red toolchest and grabbing a rag and a wrench.

Scishopguy
04-10-2010, 03:23 PM
I totally agree that not enough is being done to get kids interested in learning even basic skills that allow them to take care of their car or home. When I was a kid I quickly learned that the more I learned how things worked, the more use I got out of them. The next leap was being able to fix something that some other kid threw out. We were not rolling in money and fancy toys were few and far between.

My dad was a wood worker who loved to refinish and repair old furniture. I learned basic wood working very early in life and have made many a piece of utility grade furniture throughout my college and bachelor days.

In these bad economic times, you would think that people would rush to learn do it yourself skills. Unfortunately, the ease of credit cards has seduced them into grossly overspending to the point that, by some estimates, the national average for credit (in the USA) is that everyone has at least 3 maxed out cards. :EEK:

Maybe it is just a cycle, like farm kids longing for the big city and city kids longing for the rural life, that will turn around....I hope. I remember all the blue collar workers, of my parrents age, pushing their kids to get a college education so that they would not have to work so hard to make a good living. Maybe that was the wrong thing for them to do. I am certain that all of us were not college material. We learn from our struggles and they make us stronger. Having everything given to a person certainly teaches them nothing, not even the value of what they have. With the price of college shooting out of sight of even the wealthy, maybe the cycle will reverse itsself. I applaud all efforts to engage youngsters in manual skills and wish more could get interested.

Pardon my rambling, I just get frustrated watching our once great country taking the express train down the dumper. I guess we are like all great empires before us, gone to ruin at our hands. :sad:

dvbydt
04-10-2010, 06:42 PM
"my hat is off to you. what a great thing you are doing for the youngsters."

David,

Thanks for that but I was not really seeking praise when I posted those links. Those two UK organisations are always looking for people who can spare an hour or so a week to help "spread the word." The children get a great deal of fun out of building these projects, "look at those sparks!" this when building the morse code buzzer. They learn a lot of technical words and how the words are derived e.g. helicopter from helix (a corkscrew) and pter, wing as in pterodactyl. It's a whole new world to them and they love it.
So, all you readers in the UK, if you bemoan the lack of technical and practical education, get involved and have a lot of fun doing it.

IanR

goose
04-10-2010, 08:23 PM
Kids got the curiosity. Just not the opportunity.

Don't touch, it will hurt ya'

Don't touch, you'll hurt it.

Please don't let children touch/use a tape measure, they could be sliced to ribbons ! ! (And anyone's surprised they can't read one)

Kids using a hammer and nails?? Are you insane?? When a splinter found on your typical rubber coated playground is considered borderline reckless endangerment?

Power drill, don't you need a permit for one of those things?

Screwdrivers?? Those things are dangerous man ! Plus, what's a kid doing with one of those? Screwdrivers are "gang related" weapons you know, and should be confiscated.

Keep the kids safe,...... touch screens and nerf toys are for them.


Gary

gda
04-10-2010, 08:45 PM
What is not being said here is how involved the parents are in the child's life...

Part (but not all) of the problem is that the parents don't have the ability either.

You should hear how my wife's friends bitch how unhandy their husbands are and that it will be passed on to their kids.

Home Depot has a nice little thing going the first Saturday of every month (9-12am but check). where they give kids a little wooden kit of something to assemble like a birdhouse or other 4-10 part wooden thing to nail together. My 5 year old does better than most parents (who also just build the thing themselves with their kid standing there!). All nail holes are pre-drilled undersize, but I let him start them all himself - he used to hit his fingers but not now. Other parents watch him pre-set nails till just the point comes through, them line up and nail in opposite corners first to keep it square and can't believe it.

Dr Stan
04-10-2010, 09:09 PM
It's a crying shame the schools are phasing out "industrial arts" programs in favor of "music appreciation" and "modern dance" classes....


In reality both Industrial Arts and the fine arts have been eliminated along with traditional home economics. (I'm an agie married to a Yalie with a MFA)

Others have mentioned the problems with parents and they are right on target. The number one indicator of student success is parental involvement and as others have said most of them do not have a clue. :mad: I for one would like to see a half a year of old fashioned industrial arts and a half a year of home ec be mandatory for high school graduation. If you cannot sew on a button or unplug a sink you are lacking basic life skills and are uneducated.

When I went to boot camp in 1973 my company commander and I were the only ones who knew how to sew. He & I taught the others in the company so they could do their own minor uniform repairs. Can't go runnin' to Mama when you're in the middle of the pond (Pacific or Atlantic).

Too_Many_Tools
04-11-2010, 12:20 AM
So how many of you would willingly pay more taxes so your local school could have an industrial arts program in place?

TMT

Ken_Shea
04-11-2010, 12:38 AM
Not me as it is, Public schools are a waste of money and the worst possible place to send your kid.
Perhaps, if, get rid of the damned sports and start a program like industrial arts that will be of some use to this world and ones life, put discipline back into the schools by beating the parents instead of the kids, remove ADD and ADHD from our vocabulary, then yes I'd pay more taxes.

wooleybooger
04-11-2010, 01:29 AM
its a nanny-state. you cant do anything anymore because IT might attack you. one of the tractors i drive has 14 warning labels visible from the seat. some assume you must have no common-sense at all.cigarrette lighters can start fires,lawn mowers can chop off toes,chain saws can cut off legs.are we that stupid now that we have to be told?

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 01:46 AM
OK - rubbish the kids.

It seems quite OK to rubbish one kid and extrapolate that to be typical of all kids and their parents and kids - but always other kids, other parents and other schools - never yours and you - oh no sirree Bob.

Nutthin' rong wif yu 'n' yor lot hey - nevah!!!

Stop your moaning and complaining.

I doubt that on a per capita basis that the kids are any worse now than they ever were.

I haven't checked lately, but I'd bet that there are more ordinary kids doing extra-ordinary things on the CNC-Zone site as regards machines and machining than there seems to be here.

Old men doing "old stuff" on old machines are hardly a "turn on" for kids in the digital age.

Old men rubbishing the Chinese/Asian machines that are new and not worn out and are CNC-ed or CNC-able and all that the kids can afford or fit into what ever limited space they have is hardly going to get them "on-side" - is it?

I doubt that kids are going to be too interested in "old (and knackered) American Iron" that has to be "done up" with lots of time and expense before they can use it is hardly going to appeal to many of them.

Having "old guys" hectoring, lecturing and "putting them down" (ie to "show respect" etc.) is not going to impress them either as many will be adults and just want to be treated as equals.

Its not a matter of you regarding yourselves as older and wiser so far as the kids are concerned - you have to convince them - not yourselves - and not me either.

Its no good yearning for the "good old" and "glory" hey-days of the manufacturing era. That's gone and will never return as it was in terms of numbers or occupations. There will still be pockets of it - as there always will be.

We live in a global economy - machining, design and assembly etc. included - in and from all over the world.

There are a lot of kids out there who have lots of potential and just need a bit of encouragement and a "break".

Just hope they make it as they are going to be paying the taxes to help support a lot of us here in our dotage - which is not too far away.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dotage

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=in+one%27s+dotage&meta=&aq=6m&aqi=g-s1g5g-m3&aql=&oq=dotage&gs_rfai=&fp=18a51b3ed23f0245

Do you realise that:
- at age 20 you are twice as old as a 10 year old;
- at age 24 you are twice as old as a 12 year old;
- at age 26 you are twice as old as a 13 year old;
- at age 28 you are twice as old as a 14 year old;
- at age 30 you are twice as old as a 10 year old and 3 x as old as a 10 year old;
- at age 32 you are twice as old as a 16 year old and 4 x as old as an 8 year old;
- at age 33 you are 3 x as old as an 11 year old;
- at age 34 you are twice as old as a 17 year old;
- at age 36 you are twice as old an 18 year old and 3 x as old as a 12 year old and 4 x as old as a 9 year old;
- at age 38 you are twice as old as a 19 year old;
- at age 40 you are twice as old as a 20 year old and 4 x as old as a 10 year old;
- at age 42 you are twice as old as a 21 year old;
- at age 44 you are twice as old as a 22 year old and 4 x as old as an 11 year old;
- at age 45 you are 3 x as old as a 15 year old;
- at age 46 you are twice as old as a 23 year old;
- at age 48 you are twice as old as a 24 year old and 3 x as old as a 16 year old and 4 x as old as a 12 year old;
- at age 50 you are twice as old as a 25 year old;
- at age 52 you are twice as old as a 26 year old and 4 x as old as a 13 year old;
- at age 54 you are twice as old as a 27 year old and 3 x as old as an 18 year old;
- at age 56 you are twice as old as a 28 year old and 4 x as old as a 14 year old;
- at age 60 you are twice as old as a 30 year old and 3 x as old as a 20 year old, 4 x as old as a 15 year old as well as 6 x as old as a 10 year old;
etc.

Note that I said "older" but I did not say wiser - and certainly not by the same factors.

Some years ago in OZ we had a "Year of the Aging" but nobody had a firm definition of what "aging" - and by extension "age-d" and young" and "younger" were. Needless to say we had plenty of opinions - most of which were self-congratulatory and not always flattering as regards those in other age groups.

It was - more or less - settled that the age differentials between groups was about 15 years.

That meant that anyone 15 or more years older (than you or me) was "old/older/aged" and anyone 15 or more years younger (that you or I) was "young" or a "youngster".

It also meant - for example - that if you or I were say 60 we would be regarded as "old" by somebody who was 45 who in turn was regarded as "old" by a 30 year old who in turn was regarded as old by a 15 year old.

Now, if you or I were 60 just how old do you think those 45, 30 and 15 year-olds think we are?

And are we?

Are you sure?

What will you be like when you are 75? Yeah - you know - like those "old" 75 year-olds you know.

So, at 60 you are stuck mid-way between the impertinent "know it all" 45's and the senile old 75's.

Give the kids - and yourselves - a "break".

lakeside53
04-11-2010, 02:01 AM
Ha.... But at 56 1/2, I realized I've become "that old neighborhood guy that knows how to do stuff.." those 15/30/45 year olds are so easily fooled:D But weekends are a never ending parade of "hey, can you help me......"

Sadly it's not the 15 year olds that pay me any attention - it's the 30 and 45 guys that don' have a clue, but their kids can sure play a mean [insert name] video game. They watch me on the lathe and mill and get bored. I tell them I can make this and that, and fix this and that, and they say "just buy a new one". Their Dad is sure interested in me fixng "it", but not in how it's done . Oh well...

I have known a few of those old guys in my short life.. but never thought I'd become one. :)

Ken_Shea
04-11-2010, 02:21 AM
OT,
No one is making any blanket statement about either kids or parents, there are plenty of great young people, eager to learn, however, you must have your head stuck in the sand if you don't see serious and ever increasing problems with ambitions, interest, goals, desires (besides sex, drugs and sports), common sense and abilities of today's youth and their parents.

Who's moaning and complaining but you?

Agreed, and sadly, there are too many places with a very limited opportunity, like large inner cities, but there is far more opportunity now then has ever been available, if they can get off their laze, undisciplined ass.

I have little boo hoo left for a growing number of them.
It's not the older generation that is ruining this world.

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 03:02 AM
OT,
No one is making any blanket statement about either kids or parents, there are plenty of great young people, eager to learn, however, you must have your head stuck in the sand if you don't see serious and ever increasing problems with ambitions, interest, goals, desires (besides sex, drugs and sports), common sense and abilities of today's youth and their parents.

Ken,
you and I must be reading a different thread or posts. There is not much said to the credit of kids in general at all here. Sex booze and sports were pretty high up on my list when I was younger - which was as passed from generation to generation - then - and still is.


Who's moaning and complaining but you?

'scuse me - but I was commenting about the endless and large part unjustified complaining by people here about people who are not here to defend or justify themselves.

Very few - from the posts here - seem to see any good in the younger generations, which seems to infer that they agree or that they see no need to or are afraid to speak up.

That, in effect, is a lot like a government house/chamber/legislature where there is "Parliamentary Privilege", which is all too often a character-assassination house for slandering those unable to defend themselves.

Or put it a bit less "nicely" - a "cowards castle".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_privilege

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coward%27s_castle


Agreed, and sadly, there are too many places with a very limited opportunity, like large inner cities, but there is far more opportunity now then has ever been available, if they can get off their laze, undisciplined ass.

Be that as it may, but I'd guess that their previous generation has not done much by way of example or encouragement either. The world and the mess we've left or let the kids in(to) is largely of the making of our generation.


I have little boo hoo left for a growing number of them.
It's not the older generation that is ruining this world.

I try to judge each person as an individual - not because of age, generation etc. - and certainly not in a context of guilt by association because of his/her generation or circumstances which may not be entirely of their own making - or choice.

The way to ruin the world - if that is the case - has been very well demonstrated by their previous generations - but I guess there is a bit left for the kids to "ruin".

Perhaps if some of us were to get out of the way of and from under the feet of the kids and hindering a large number of them, they may well get on with cleaning up what was left to them - and make a pretty good job of it.

Perhaps, because so many of the kids "elders" and "betters" had not instilled into the kids that they were crap etc. then perhaps so many may not have nor only believed it but showed it to be true.

Perhaps the kids are a consequence of previous generations self-indulgences such that the kids become a proof of the Law of Unintended Consequences as well as a self-fulfilling prophesy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

I know some kids who are $hit-heads - but I know a lot more who are not.

Most other generations seem to be much the same.

Perhaps we have all the pargons of virtue and all that is good and great right here - but I doubt it - I for one would see to that.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=paragon+of+virtue+definition&meta=&aq=3&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=paragon+of+&gs_rfai=&fp=18a51b3ed23f0245

"As ye sow .................................. "

Too_Many_Tools
04-11-2010, 03:08 AM
OT,
No one is making any blanket statement about either kids or parents, there are plenty of great young people, eager to learn, however, you must have your head stuck in the sand if you don't see serious and ever increasing problems with ambitions, interest, goals, desires (besides sex, drugs and sports), common sense and abilities of today's youth and their parents.

Who's moaning and complaining but you?

Agreed, and sadly, there are too many places with a very limited opportunity, like large inner cities, but there is far more opportunity now then has ever been available, if they can get off their laze, undisciplined ass.

I have little boo hoo left for a growing number of them.
It's not the older generation that is ruining this world.

But it was the older generation that closed all the industrial art programs.

And refuses to start new ones.

TMT

BadDog
04-11-2010, 03:25 AM
My kids don't seem to have inherited the "gear head" gene. I was buying and building basket case dirt bikes before I hit my teens, but that is apparently not hereditary. Then again, maybe that's because my family was flat broke, and my kids have (fortunately) never known that condition. But I think the knowledge gained was valuable, so I've managed to entice their interest in more than a few projects. My son and I bought a K30 (1 ton 4x4) and cut it down to build a tube body rock buggy after converting the 6.2 diesel to 89 TBI 350, stacked cases, custom links-n-leaves suspension, and lots of other stuff. I did most of it, but they (mostly my son) spent a lot of time and learned a lot of basic stuff along the way. Playing with it was a side benefit. He also got to drive my 1-ton K5, and threw a rod out of the engine. He got to pay for and build a new motor, with my supervision/help, more lessons learned (and not just mechanical).

He's now 23, and all his friends think he some sort of prodigy because he can not only wire their game systems into their (or their parent's) audio-visual systems (he did a complete rework of his girlfriends parent's high end system a while back). And he's taught/helped several to do basic work like changing an alternator, brakes, belts, and such. He turned out well.

My daughter, now 18, is likewise pretty capable. She helped me replace a broken motor mount in our K5 "Expedition/Rock Rig" a few weeks back, and we redid the brakes last weekend, along with building a new ECM with custom chip for the EFI. She's quite the site, tall slim blond climbing out of a big K5 off road truck without a single straight panel anywhere on it. :D I let her drive it, but the deal is that she has to keep it running and handle ALL routine wear/abuse related maintenance (just like my son did when we built the latest motor).

So while both my kids can duke it out on Halo with the best of their contemporaries (my son plays it competitively online and is one of the higher ranked), they can also fend for themselves in more practical matters, and they've both made stuff of their own design/imagination on my shop machines. So all is not lost. But I don't expect the schools to do more than they did for me, and that was just to provide the basic building blocks of education. It's my responsibility to make sure they have the tools to put it all together, and I never abdicated that responsibility to the state.

I do wish they had a little more interest in that direction, but that's purely selfish in that I would like to have that chance to spend more time with them. If I can get my daughter through a desturbing trend in bad choices of boyfriends, I have no doubt that both of mine will do just fine out there whatever they decide to do.

banjoallen
04-11-2010, 09:25 AM
So how many of you would willingly pay more taxes so your local school could have an industrial arts program in place?

TMT
I would! Allen

Spin Doctor
04-11-2010, 09:28 AM
I'd rather an Industrial Arts Program than varsity sports

Ed P
04-11-2010, 09:52 AM
Fortunately kids haven't changed. The following is more from the same article.
Nuts, Bolts & Thingamajigs also funds 40 camps and events where kids can experience building for themselves. "We organized one in Montana for five to 12 year olds," Ratzenberger recalled. "We had carpentry kits set up. They were there for eight hours, and when we said it was time to leave, three started crying. It was the first time any of them had ever built anything."

Ed P

P.S. I gave 50 bucks. You can go to the web site given in the first message and click on "Give now" and you will find out 100% goes to the program and there is 100% matching gift added on from the Fabricators and Manufacturer Association.

Ken_Shea
04-11-2010, 06:17 PM
But it was the older generation that closed all the industrial art programs.

And refuses to start new ones.

TMT

It wasn't the "older generation" it was the "School Board", I sure don't recall being asked what my feelings were about that, it just disappeared, as to why, I have no clue, likely was not being utilized, which reasoning would likely brings us back full circle to the OP.

Ken_Shea
04-11-2010, 06:33 PM
"As ye sow .................................. "


The best part of your mostly very good post.
Applies to all ages with no age gap, just seems like there is when you are young and the crop is only just growing, but life soon catches up and then the reaping.

As for me getting out of the younger generation's way, I don't think so!!, at least not deliberately, no way I want their thinking dictating any more of my future then that being done outside my control presently.

JoeCB
04-11-2010, 07:21 PM
This issue of youth involvement is indeed a serious one. Goes hand in hand with the problem of all our manufacturing expertiese moving overseas. I'm a retired manufacturing engineer/ home shop machinest. Here in metro Detroit, the once great Arsenal of Democracy you want to cry when you see all the boarded up tool shops and factories that once provided tens of thousands of good paying jobs. ... but enough crying, back to the issue of youth involvement.
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Boy Scouts and the various programs and Merit Badge aimed at developing interist in things "hands -on" . For example there is a Woodworking and a Metal working merit badge The latter goes into considerable depth in sheet metal, foundry and blacksmith work. I'm still involved in scouts long after my two boys pased thru the program. Here in the Great Lakes Council we have a program, part of which is aimed at developing primitive industrial skills, carpentry and metalworking/blacksmithing. We are set-up within an outdoor facility known as "Fort Pontiac" that has a carpenter shop and coal forge smithy among other thngs. check it out ... http://www.glcscouting.org/cpp/index.html
I suspect that other area BSA councils have similiar activities.
As a suggestion, espically for you guys in smaller towns, check with your local Boy Scout troop and ask if they would like to be invited to a "gas- up" or "steam- up" at your place or local club. Dispite the attraction to the d*m computers young boys still like machines that make "noise and smoke" .
Joe B

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie

"As ye sow .................................. "


The best part of your mostly very good post.
Applies to all ages with no age gap, just seems like there is when you are young and the crop is only just growing, but life soon catches up and then the reaping.

As for me getting out of the younger generation's way, I don't think so!!, at least not deliberately, no way I want their thinking dictating any more of my future then that being done outside my control presently.

Ken, if history repeats itself, you may not necessarily be "pushed out of the way" as you will probably be left to yourself and your own devices and just by-passed. It matters not whether you are "run over" or left behind, but you will be in a progressively smaller coterie of like-minded individuals or groups who will simply either give up or pass away over time.

If the problem is with School Boards, then if as I understand it, the Boards are representative of local needs and are appointed/elected by local people, then perhaps the fault and the correcting of it is in the hands of the local community. I'd guess that local industry has its input as well and if it neither supports nor sees a need for "industrial arts" - then they go - and make way for something else.

If industrial arts are geared to the needs for industry then the curricula need to be constantly revised and altered to accord with the industry need. If not industry will not support it but will either do its training "in house" or will recruit from outside the area.

Our "Technical" schools etc. refused to take heed or notice and were stuck in the same "old" ways and became largely irrelevant - and were "run down" as industry could not see the justification of paying to send apprentices and trainees to learn out-dated methods and technology.

It has been radically reversed here as though there is some "hobby" level technical training, it is now "performance based" and geared to support industry.

We have a huge gap and back-log in skilled workers and training here. The Government spending huge amounts on literacy and numeracy as well as technical training for Apprentices, Trainees and those that need to up-skill for the shop they work in. Its all "commercial".

We import many skilled migrants to fill the need as so many current and future huge industrial and infra-structure works, ports, rail, power, mining, gas etc. require them.

You could do worse than to read this link:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=technical+training+australia&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=technical+training+australia&gs_rfai=&fp=18a51b3ed23f0245

Our "Central" Bank is still raising rates on a "1/4% per month" basis to cool demand in a buoyant economy. Unemployment is at a low or 5% and stable or falling. House prices are sky-rocketing due to increasing demand and shortage of supply. None of our banks had any problem with the GFC and are all in very good shape, are very profitable and well-funded.

So, yes, we know a bit about "industrial arts" here - and even if we did over-do shutting some down and did lose sight of the real objectives, we are back on track.

Ken_Shea
04-12-2010, 09:55 AM
So, yes, we know a bit about "industrial arts" here - and even if we did over-do shutting some down and did lose sight of the real objectives, we are back on track.

Sorry to say that we are not able to say the same thing.

lynnl
04-12-2010, 12:28 PM
:D:D
This sorta reminds me of my youth, growing up in a tiny little town listening to the old timers sitting around the country store talking: "....these dang kids today'll never amount to a hill'o'beans! Hellll.., half of 'em can't even harness up a mule or dress a hog!" :D

Tho I do agree that more of the practical aspects of living, and vocational skills need to be put back into our educational institutions. However, I differ as to which is the most sorely lacking.

Several years ago a coworker, who's about 20 years younger than me, pointed out something that I'd never really thought much about. And that is the management of money from the individual's perspective. Other than maybe a brief exposure to the effects of compounding interest and how that can increase wealth, there's nothing taught about what to do with money after you earn it. Imagine the benefits to both individuals and the entire economy if every young person started out their working life with a good foundation in personal finance and investing, and a strong motivation to put their assets into things that would help "grow" the economy, rather than the latest ipod or techno-gizmo to satisfy some immediate, shallow fascination.
That's not to say that all consumer goods represent some evil, corrupting lure. Ultimately consumerism drives it all. But for too many people, earning additional profits from assets earned by their labor, occurs late in life, if at all.

vincemulhollon
04-12-2010, 04:27 PM
As a fellow engineer mentioned the other day, he has NO concept what a CC is. Without the ability to measure something, he has no concept of 1.0 cm x 1.0 cm x 1.0 cm. filled with water at a specific temperature being 1 CC.

Oh my. 1 cc is about 1 mL aka milliliter. I hope that engineer is an EE or something and not a ChemEng. If he took the multiple chemistry classes I took, he'd have a pretty good idea of a CC or mL.

A shotglass is about 30 of those CC things. That "two liter" bottle of corn syrup cola is about 2000 of them CC. That'll get him started. I can't be the only guy whom thinks of car engine displacements in terms of soda bottles, can I? Can't do much engineering if you can't do estimating in your head...

Also a cube of liquid water one cm on a side is always 1 CC regardless of temperature. I think you're thinking of mass. At peak density (about 4 C) at sea level its one gram to a lot of decimal places, but not exactly. Less than a gram at all other temps. Water is about 1000 times more compressible than steel so pressure matters.

saltmine
04-12-2010, 05:00 PM
After speaking with a friend, who happens to be the Supervisor of Schools here, I came away with a basic understanding of what was going on.
It had nothing to do with class subject matter or students willing to take industrial arts classes. It all boiled down to money.

Most of the instructors who were capable of teaching high school level industrial arts classes have been retiring. New instructors are few & far between, and the ones out there who can, usually want a sizeable paycheck.
Then, there's machines. Woodworking or metal shop tools are expensive to buy and maintain. Auto shop tools are likewise quite costly.

On the other hand, to conduct a "Music Appreciation" class, one only needs a rookie, first year out of grad school, teacher's aide, a CD player, and a stack of CD's. A "Modern Dance" class only requires some place to dance and a CD player....
Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but it's a lot cheaper for a cash strapped school board to offer these classes than it is to offer "real world" technical teaching.

Many machine shop and auto shop classrooms sit empty because there's nobody to teach the class, safely, in a way students will come away having learned something.

Eventually it's going to happen. We will no longer have technical people. Or, technical people will be so sought after they achieve almost "Priestly Status"
much like a science fiction novel I read once, where nobody knew how to repair or maintain the great machines of the day, and they had to journey to find a "Priest of Machines" in the hope of getting their machines fixed.
In the novel, most people lived in semi-barbaric conditions because their weather conditioning machines and food synthesizers had long ago failed.

In all honesty, I would love to live long enough to see this take place...

Too_Many_Tools
04-12-2010, 06:52 PM
After speaking with a friend, who happens to be the Supervisor of Schools here, I came away with a basic understanding of what was going on.
It had nothing to do with class subject matter or students willing to take industrial arts classes. It all boiled down to money.

Most of the instructors who were capable of teaching high school level industrial arts classes have been retiring. New instructors are few & far between, and the ones out there who can, usually want a sizeable paycheck.
Then, there's machines. Woodworking or metal shop tools are expensive to buy and maintain. Auto shop tools are likewise quite costly.

On the other hand, to conduct a "Music Appreciation" class, one only needs a rookie, first year out of grad school, teacher's aide, a CD player, and a stack of CD's. A "Modern Dance" class only requires some place to dance and a CD player....
Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but it's a lot cheaper for a cash strapped school board to offer these classes than it is to offer "real world" technical teaching.

Many machine shop and auto shop classrooms sit empty because there's nobody to teach the class, safely, in a way students will come away having learned something.

...

As I said, if one wants an industrial arts program in your local school, all you have to do is pay more taxes and it will happen.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
04-12-2010, 06:57 PM
It wasn't the "older generation" it was the "School Board", I sure don't recall being asked what my feelings were about that, it just disappeared, as to why, I have no clue, likely was not being utilized, which reasoning would likely brings us back full circle to the OP.

No..it WAS the older generation.

Kids don't sit on the school board.

And things just don't disappear.

If parents aka the older generation had expressed their wishes for an industrial arts program it would still be there.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing the decay to occur.

TMT

Ken_Shea
04-12-2010, 07:26 PM
No..it WAS the older generation.

Kids don't sit on the school board.

And things just don't disappear.

If parents aka the older generation had expressed their wishes for an industrial arts program it would still be there.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing the decay to occur.

TMT
The school board, could be older then dirt, however, they still do not represent the "Older Generation" by any stretch.

You are over simplifying the issue, parents of high school kids are also not the "Older Generation", higher taxes rarely fix any school problem, only delayes even greater problems because they now have more money to spend, too much is never enough for them, pay more taxes, they just spend more and then whine for more at the next opertunity to sneak something through. You probably can guess that I have little respect for the school board/system and you are not going to change my mind on that subject nor am I yours so nothing gained from any further comment from me, Still I will be happy to read any further comment or arguments from you.
Ken

RKW
04-12-2010, 07:27 PM
I think you could pay/donate all the money you wanted to and it still would not make a difference.

It is too bad that what is taught in industrial art programs is still looked down upon by many as just blue collar jobs that only the uneducated take. The role models of today are overpaid Hollywood freaks and sports figures.

One thing that has not been mentioned as part of the demise of industrial arts are injuries and liability. Liability has ruined many things in this country.


As I said, if one wants an industrial arts program in your local school, all you have to do is pay more taxes and it will happen.

TMT

saltmine
04-12-2010, 09:06 PM
I donno.....When somebody in local government around here gets his lunch hooks on some extra cash, it usually goes into his pocket, or to pay off some of his "buddies" in the "Good 'ol Boys" network.

When the census taker gave me the questionaire for the census, he told me that for everybody who gets counted, the local government gets about $1500 in funding from various programs...I told him I didn't want my $1500 to fall into the hands of local officials...mainly because they'll either waste it, or steal it. (Sorry, worked in a County government shop for 15 years, I have no love for politicians)

Too_Many_Tools
04-13-2010, 01:46 AM
The issue is money.

And with the money is the responsibility of active participation in the schools.

School boards are voted in and out.

They spend your tax money the way the public wants it spent...the public that actively participates in school decisions.

If you ignore schools, others will spend your money according to their interests.

Ever wonder why so many schools can hardly afford books but have the best of sports equipment?

It reflects the priorities of the public...the public that participates in school decisions.

The demise of industrial art programs occurred because we allowed them to die.

But the local football team gets anything they want...and more.

TMT

gearedloco
04-13-2010, 02:50 AM
As I said, if one wants an industrial arts program in your local school, all you have to do is pay more taxes and it will happen.

TMT

"All you have to do is..." Now there's a frightening phrase. It's usually said by a "Higher Up" when he's about to tell you how you can redo what it's taken months to accomplish in order to meet a "slightly revised" specification which is totally different than the original project.:eek:

"if one wants an industrial arts program in your local school, all you have to do is pay more taxes and it will happen." make me think you live in another universe! Here in the PFDR of Californication, it's virtually guaranteed that additional taxes will be spent in whatever way the "People In Power" want to spend them. And that's usually in a way that will buy the most votes. :mad:

It most certainly will not be spent for whatever the original purpose of the tax increase was said to be.

gearedloco
04-13-2010, 03:07 AM
The issue is money.

And with the money is the responsibility of active participation in the schools.

School boards are voted in and out.

It takes a whole lot of money to run for school board, or any other elected position. If you don't "sell your soul" to the right people, you don't raise the money.


They spend your tax money the way the public wants it spent...the public that actively participates in school decisions.

Hey - wanna by a bridge? On top of everything else, schools are largely controlled by the State of Californica and by the Federal government. The school districts continue to merge in the name of "Economies of Scale," which mostly serves to employ more paper-pushers who pay their buddies to "conduct studies." The individual parent/citizen continues to move towards being an invisible spec among the mass who cry out for more "bread and circuses." For a classic case, look up Richmond Unified School District in Richmond, CA.

Ahhh, phooie! I'm gonna go make some chips! And yes, I did run for a position on a school board once. With benefit of hind-sight, I was fortunate to loose.

-bill

vincemulhollon
04-13-2010, 08:47 AM
Or, technical people will be so sought after they achieve almost "Priestly Status"

Already there dude.

What would the reaction be, if the priest were late to mass, and some random man (or woman) walked up to the altar to git'er done?

Identical "learned helplessness" reaction to someone stepping up to a technical problem. Anyone in the workplace has seen it with regards to IT.

There are other peculiar similarities, blind obedience to whatever was written in a book, literally cursing broken machinery...

davidh
04-13-2010, 09:41 AM
Kids got the curiosity. Just not the opportunity.

Don't touch, it will hurt ya'

Don't touch, you'll hurt it.

Please don't let children touch/use a tape measure, they could be sliced to ribbons ! ! (And anyone's surprised they can't read one)

Kids using a hammer and nails?? Are you insane?? When a splinter found on your typical rubber coated playground is considered borderline reckless endangerment?

Power drill, don't you need a permit for one of those things?

Screwdrivers?? Those things are dangerous man ! Plus, what's a kid doing with one of those? Screwdrivers are "gang related" weapons you know, and should be confiscated.

Keep the kids safe,...... touch screens and nerf toys are for them.


Gary

i gotta interject here. . . . living in a rural setting makes this a bit easier however, when my now 20 year old son was 9 or 10, i was concerned about summer vacation and not being close to friends. . i needed something to keep him busy during summer vacation as i work at home and his mother was in school.
i bought a non running old mercedees, hauled it home, gave him a couple screwdirvers and such and told him to see how many things he could take off the car without destroying them. . . what an education that turned out to be for him.
i know he spent at least a month and a half, on and off, pulling parts. when he was done, i called the junk yard and they came and hauled the hull to the scrap heap.
tremendous education for a boy.
now at nearly 21 he can take apart anything mechanical i throw his way, from cars to power tools.
his friends at college are having him do service work on their car because he know how to figure mechanical things out.
he will never go hungry for lack of ability. (he's a jazz music major in college)
sorry for the rant.
im a terribly proud daddy