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View Full Version : why part out a good machine??



coldformer
04-11-2010, 08:29 AM
i know its only a 6 in atlas which a lot of people think is a sub standard machine
on the other board don will lock any thread that refers to an atlas, i have owned three one was a th48 with a turret saddle, and a turret tail stock built in 1941 i am sure it made parts that helped bring troups home and it also bought lot of diapers and beer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-ATLAS-CLAUSING-6-10100-MK2-LATHE-HEADSTOCK-ASSY_W0QQitemZ370361416656QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item563b42bbd0
rant off

Rustybolt
04-11-2010, 09:11 AM
It's more valuable as parts.
Used machines are going for scrap prices, but if someone wants to maintain what they have they'll spend the money.

Dr Stan
04-11-2010, 10:06 AM
It mirrors the MBA mentality of purchasing a company then breaking it up to sell the pieces for a profit. The seller most likely does not know a thing about machining and in addition does not care.

snowman
04-11-2010, 10:08 AM
Worth more, simple as that.

I buy things to resell for the greatest profit so I can buy better machines. I'm not concerned about the nostalgia of a machine, I'm concerned about how productive my shop is.

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 10:19 AM
The problem of "parting out" is not really "nostalgia" in any way shape or form......

The problem is that when you take a good machine, and part it out, what generally happens is that some of the parts, the hot movers, get sold, and the rest of the machine goes in the scrap ladle, to come back as chinese gew-gaws.

Those hot movers are sold to people with clapped-out scrapworthy machines that SHOULD be in the scrap ladle, so now they they have a crappy machine that has scored and worn ways, holding about 0.010 tolerance on a good day but it now has one or two good parts on it.

To achieve that result for 5 or 10 people, "parting out" a good machine throws away the heavy, unshippable but good bed, and maybe the tailstock and headstock castings, etc.

parting out a crappy machine with a worn-out scored, or chipped bed, etc is fine.... but machines like that usually have their other parts in such worn and useless condition that selling them is no favor to anyone.

The ultimate is pulling the rare zamac parts off for sale at top dollar and scrapping the rest.

The hamfisted dorks who broke their old parts will probably break the new ones in a year, by which time the good cast iron parts that were scrapped will have come back here as chinese can openers

Punkinhead
04-11-2010, 10:24 AM
If I bought a house and found a pristine mid-70's Pinto out in the garage I would part it out if the value of the parts was greater than the whole.

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 11:24 AM
parting out a Pinto is fine.......

if you found a pristine totally original Shelby, would you part that and toss the body?

Just checking your strength of motives here.......

gnm109
04-11-2010, 11:31 AM
parting out a Pinto is fine.......

if you found a pristine totally original Shelby, would you part that and toss the body?

Just checking your strength of motives here.......


Actually, the design of the Pinto was a watershed moment in automotive engineering. Someone had finally designed a vehicle for the masses that had exactly one horsepower more than friction. Addiitionally, they would seldom overheat since they could hardly run fast enough to get warm. That was quite a feat in the history of transportation. :p


.

lakeside53
04-11-2010, 11:35 AM
I bought a lathe for parts (EMCO V10P with mill). .. parts for my other lathe which although it needed none, it "might" and they are made of unobtainium.

Well.. I started but found nothing materially wrong with it ... I decided to rebuild the parts lathe also - it sat in a basement for 35 years; almost unused from new beneath the layers of grime and some areas light surface rust.

It now looks like new... and now I don't have any spare parts.:mad: :D

I could have made 10 times my money (and real $$.. not penies..) if I'd sold the parts... and every part would have sold, but I didn't. Sometimes it's just not about money.

lakeside53
04-11-2010, 11:37 AM
Actually, the design of the Pinto was a watershed moment in automotive engineering. Someone had finally designed a vehicle for the masses that had exactly one horsepower more than friction. Addiitionallt, they would seldom overheat since they could hardly run fast enough to get warm. That was quite a feat in the history of transportation. :p


.


And .. self recycling - If IRRC correctly, should spontaneously combust if touched by another vehicle from the rear:D

Too_Many_Tools
04-11-2010, 12:05 PM
I bought a lathe for parts (EMCO V10P with mill). .. parts for my other lathe which although it needed none, it "might" and they are made of unobtainium.

Well.. I started but found nothing materially wrong with it ... I decided to rebuild the parts lathe also - it sat in a basement for 35 years; almost unused from new beneath the layers of grime and some areas light surface rust.

It now looks like new... and now I don't have any spare parts.:mad: :D

I could have made 10 times my money (and real $$.. not penies..) if I'd sold the parts... and every part would have sold, but I didn't. Sometimes it's just not about money.

I understand.

It is also the reason why I do not sell any tools to flippers.

Let them get a REAL job.

TMT

lazlo
04-11-2010, 12:11 PM
why part out a good machine??

Unrestrained capitalism. A.K.A. greed.

Seriously, I doubt even Ayn Rand would want you to part out a machine to maximize profits if it's an increasingly rare machine.

They do the same to the Atlas 7B (shaper) -- part out perfectly good machines. Shame.

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Unrestrained capitalism. A.K.A. greed.

Seriously, I doubt even Ayn Rand would want you to part out a machine to maximize profits if it's an increasingly rare machine.

They do the same to the Atlas 7B (shaper) -- part out perfectly good machines. Shame.

Greed comes in two forms,those wanting to make money and those not wanting to spend it.Those not wanting to spend it will not pay the going rate for a complete running machine(sadly about 70% are HSMers according to my experience)instead they will wait often times for years to buy the machine they want for the price they want to pay.Most times they end up with a machine that is either clapped out or missing parts,hince the demand for parts.

Everybody here complaining is complaining now,later when he has a part they need and can't find the're attitude will change.

Let's face it,the man is providing a service,one that is in demand and one that is keeping other machines that aren't in working order for lack of a few parts from heading to the scapyard.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 01:02 PM
Those not wanting to spend it will not pay the going rate for a complete running machine(sadly about 70% are HSMers according to my experience)instead they will wait often times for years to buy the machine they want for the price they want to pay.

You sound like Don, complaining that members aren't willing to pay enough for his machines :)

Capitalism 101: the going rate for a machine is what people are willing to pay for it. So saying people aren't willing to pay the going rate is an oxymoron.

But more to the point, the reality is that old, rare machines are worth more as parts than the complete machines, so greedy people part them out. That's life.
Personally, I think there should be a special place in Hell for those folks...

sansbury
04-11-2010, 01:05 PM
The problem is that when you take a good machine, and part it out, what generally happens is that some of the parts, the hot movers, get sold, and the rest of the machine goes in the scrap ladle, to come back as chinese gew-gaws.

The parts that frequently need replacing sell quickly, while those that don't wear out, don't.


Those hot movers are sold to people with clapped-out scrapworthy machines that SHOULD be in the scrap ladle, so now they they have a crappy machine that has scored and worn ways, holding about 0.010 tolerance on a good day but it now has one or two good parts on it.

And presumably they are happy with their once-again-working machine.


To achieve that result for 5 or 10 people, "parting out" a good machine throws away the heavy, unshippable but good bed, and maybe the tailstock and headstock castings, etc.

So, instead of making one person happy with a new machine, we make 5 or 10 happy with repaired ones.


The hamfisted dorks who broke their old parts will probably break the new ones in a year, by which time the good cast iron parts that were scrapped will have come back here as chinese can openers

Good thing none of us ever resemble that remark.

Would you feel better if the cast iron was recycled into a Haas lathe?

nheng
04-11-2010, 01:08 PM
And .. self recycling - If IRRC correctly, should spontaneously combust if touched by another vehicle from the rear:D

And if I remember correctly, they were considered for use as ordinance back around the time of the Shah. Simply dropped rear end heading down to create devastation :D

Den

JCHannum
04-11-2010, 01:09 PM
Let's face it,the man is providing a service,one that is in demand and one that is keeping other machines that aren't in working order for lack of a few parts from heading to the scapyard.

Weird has it right, it is a simple business decision that meets a definite need. The 6" Atlas, particularly the last model, is a capable little machine. However, the average lathe buyer interested in a machine in that size range will walk into Harbor Freight and buy a Chicom lathe for a dollar three eighty. That establishes the market price for lathes in that size range.

If a buyer were willing to pay the price equal to the parts value of the machine, the seller will be more than happy to accomodate, but that buyer is very rare. Meanwhile, food needs to be put on the seller's table. That seller seems to be in the business of parting out smaller machines and is a good resource to keep in mind when looking for parts.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 01:22 PM
That seller seems to be in the business of parting out smaller machines and is a good resource to keep in mind when looking for parts.

Or, he could just get a job, and stop destroying the rapidly diminishing pool of Western-made manual machines :rolleyes:

I noticed he's also parting-out South Bends. So would the story be different if he was tearing-down and parting-out 10 EE's, HLV-H's, Deckels or Myfords? That's happening too...

coldformer
04-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Sometimes it's just not about money.

mochinist
04-11-2010, 01:36 PM
he should take one of forest scraping classes and then spend countless hours rebuilding the machines(when he isn't working at his "real" job) to sell at a loss instead.

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 01:36 PM
You sound like Don, complaining that members aren't willing to pay enough for his machines :)

Capitalism 101: the going rate for a machine is what people are willing to pay for it. So saying people aren't willing to pay the going rate is an oxymoron.


No,it's not an oxymoron,for every person who is willing there are five that aren't.As an example we had a nice,clean Logan,single phase,all accessories they made and tooling for $800 which was actually $300 less than the going rate for the basic machine.I got tired of showing it to people,nearly all wanted to beat down on price,it sat for months and I was fixing to start selling off tooling on ebay when finally one guy came in that knew what it was worth and he paid the $800 inside of 10 minutes.The funny part was several of the lookers later came back looking for the machine and even got mad because we sold it for what we wanted even though the price was $300 light.
Now some of this does depend on the age of the customer,the younger ones generally accept the offered price.The older ones that remember the lathe selling for $495 new in 1945 not so much:D



But more to the point, the reality is that old, rare machines are worth more as parts than the complete machines, so greedy people part them out. That's life.
Personally, I think there should be a special place in Hell for those folks...

All of this misguided hate is silly,if these people wern't parting out machines many more would be going to scrap simply for lack of parts.If anything they are doing a service and actually saving machines from the melting pot.

An Atlas or SB isn't particularly rare,neither is a 10EE.And tommorow when you need a part for one of your old and rare machines you'll think those folks are angels:D

JCHannum
04-11-2010, 01:36 PM
Or, he could just get a job, and stop destroying the rapidly diminishing pool of Western-made manual machines :rolleyes: .

He has a job, and by parting one machine, he is saving five (pick a number) that are returned to service rather than being junked for lack of repair parts.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 01:46 PM
we had a nice,clean Logan,single phase,all accessories they made and tooling for $800 which was actually $300 less than the going rate for the basic machine.I got tired of showing it to people,nearly all wanted to beat down on price,it sat for months

So according to my undergraduate economics class, that means that the going rate for that lathe, in whatever condition it was, isn't $800


I was fixing to start selling off tooling on ebay

Ah, see now we're getting to the core issue. We need to ask, before anyone weighs-in on their opinion, whether you've parted out a machine...


when finally one guy came in that knew what it was worth and he paid the $800 inside of 10 minutes.

You mean, you found a whale. That's the Mike Kandu mentality -- "I know this machine is worth XXX dollars, and I'm willing to sit on it for years, until it sells, dammit." And then he's puzzled why no one will buy it -- "they're just cheap." There's no such thing as "cheap" or "going price" in Capitalism. There's the market value.

Funny, we were all lamenting when people were tearing down that nice Cincinnati for the scrapyard, how sad it was.

By the way, this goes on in the classic car world all the time -- people will tear down a gorgeous '57 Chevy or '68 Vette and part it out on Ebay. The same arguments.


It mirrors the MBA mentality of purchasing a company then breaking it up to sell the pieces for a profit.

...and outsourcing. Perfect analogy.

mochinist
04-11-2010, 01:49 PM
I have a Hardinge chucker that I would be willing to part out, anyone need parts?

Paul Alciatore
04-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Ok, the guys who part-out machines are the scum of the machining world. Fine!

But, if we, who value these machines, were more inclined to pay good money for a used machine, then there would be more incentive to sell them whole. So, who is really responsible?

Like illegal drugs: no customers, no dealers.






Boy, am I going to get it for that last statement. Comparing wonderful machines to illegal drugs. The nerve of me.

Too_Many_Tools
04-11-2010, 02:20 PM
You sound like Don, complaining that members aren't willing to pay enough for his machines :)

Capitalism 101: the going rate for a machine is what people are willing to pay for it. So saying people aren't willing to pay the going rate is an oxymoron.

But more to the point, the reality is that old, rare machines are worth more as parts than the complete machines, so greedy people part them out. That's life.
Personally, I think there should be a special place in Hell for those folks...

There is.

And I would gladly volunteer to run it on the weekends.

TMT

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 02:30 PM
So according to my undergraduate economics class, that means that the going rate for that lathe, in whatever condition it was, isn't $800

No,when you don't need it,don't really want to continue taking up space with it,it's not worth anything to industry and you want it to move quick you sell it for less than it's worth.Besides,there is nothing wrong with giving someone a good deal.If you give a customer a good deal and he knows it the chances of repeat business are greatly increased.

Undergrad Ec classes are why the economy is FUBAR ,too many Social communists teaching.




Ah, see now we're getting to the core issue. We need to ask, before anyone weighs-in on their opinion, whether you've parted out a machine...

Why yes,yes I have and will continue to do so with machines surplus to my needs or ones that are bought incomplete.Heck I even give parts away:)




You mean, you found a whale. That's the Mike Kandu mentality -- "I know this machine is worth XXX dollars, and I'm willing to sit on it for years, until it sells, dammit." And then he's puzzled why no one will buy it -- "they're just cheap." There's no such thing as "cheap" or "going price" in Capitalism. There's the market value.

No,he found us,knew what he was looking at and didn't balk at the price which was more than reasonable.

I for years wanted a Makita or Hitachi resaw bandsaw.Not having an extra $2500 laying around to buy a new one I was looking for used.It took three years to even find a single used machine within driving distance.I was offered one by an acquaintance for $600.I bought it sight unseen over the phone.I knew it was worth what he was asking,he knew what it was worth,trying to beat him down would be the mark of a cheap a--hat idiot.


Funny, we were all lamenting when people were tearing down that nice Cincinnati for the scrapyard, how sad it was.

There is a difference,even though you don't see it between someone taking a machine,that COULD and SHOULD be parted out and selling it for scrap and a person parting out surplus machinery to make a profit.


By the way, this goes on in the classic car world all the time -- people will tear down a gorgeous '57 Chevy or '68 Vette and part it out on Ebay. The same arguments.

No,they don't and no it's not the same.Cars are completely different.Nobody is going to take a matching numbers all original running classic and part it out,to do so would mean making LESS than it's market value.
They will take a car that needs major restoration and part them,simply because the restoration puts the car well over it's completed worth.

This brings us full circle back to machine tools.The seller mentioned that the Atlas wasn't complete,what were the parts he needed to complete it going to cost and where was he going to get them?
Atlas is gone,so they're out,so that leaves other parts dealers,hummmm wonder where Sobel used to get his parts?:rolleyes:
So what were his options?He has a new lathe,sitting in a box that's missing parts(maybe a saddle or tailstock),does he sent it to the scrapper,does he wait ten years for the right parts to come along,or does he part the machine?

Pretty simple equation.

Dr Stan
04-11-2010, 02:37 PM
Undergrad Ec classes are why the economy is FUBAR ,too many Social communists teaching.

You're absolutely correct about the economy being FUBAR, however incorrect about who is teaching undergrad econ. It is filled with the Ayn Rand free marketers who love short selling, strange and exotic derivatives no one understands, and any other way to simply make a buck, but not really contribute to the GNP.

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 03:02 PM
You're absolutely correct about the economy being FUBAR, however incorrect about who is teaching undergrad econ. It is filled with the Ayn Rand free marketers who love short selling, strange and exotic derivatives no one understands, and any other way to simply make a buck, but not really contribute to the GNP.

So lending money to people for things they cannot afford at zero intrest under government mandate running the banking system on fumes is your definition of a free market?You must teach:rolleyes:

bborr01
04-11-2010, 03:12 PM
We also may want to define "parting out".

I have a SB heavy 10 lathe that I bought several years ago with a taper attachment but literally no other tooling.

Over the last several years I have bought a 5c drawbar and collet setup.

And a collet stand. And live center. And quick change tool post. And probably a few other things.

Now I have upgraded to a larger machine with a DRO and some nice features.

If I go to sell the SB as a complete unit, I would probably need to get about $2,000 for it to break even. This does not include the many hours of my time chasing down the additional tooling.

I am fairly certain that if I tried to sell it as a complete unit, and I have not decided whether I am going to part with it or not, a lot of buyers would expect to get the tooling for a song.

Am I really parting it out if I sell all of the tooling seperately?

The unit came with a taper attachment. Most of them don't. I saw a taper attachment just like mine go for almost $400 on ebay. Is that parting it out if I sell the taper attachment seperately.

I have been contemplating that if I do decide to sell it, I may list it as the machine only with extra tooling at an additional cost to save a buyer all of the time I spent chasing down the extra tooling.

Don't get me wrong, it pains me to see someone take a perfectly good machine, be it a lathe, mill, car, gun, etc and part it out but sometimes the economics of it make it very appealing to just part it out.

Brian

gnm109
04-11-2010, 03:21 PM
And .. self recycling - If IRRC correctly, should spontaneously combust if touched by another vehicle from the rear:D


Yes, and they did burn quite evenly.

bborr01
04-11-2010, 03:42 PM
Yes, and they did burn quite evenly.

If it had been a TOYOTA PINTO they would probably still be building them and blaming the cars that hit them.:rolleyes:

Brian

lazlo
04-11-2010, 03:47 PM
So lending money to people for things they cannot afford at zero intrest under government mandate running the banking system on fumes is your definition of a free market?You must teach:rolleyes:

Yes, CountryWide driving around in mini-vans selling $500,000 mortgages to homeless people so their golfing buddies could repackage them as Credit Default Swaps and sell them to 401K's and Pension Funds as AAA-rated junk bonds is the reason the world-wide economy collapsed in 2008. Heck, we should round-up all those homeless people and ask for our 401K's back. Then we can send them to Finland and make them rebuild their economy, and they can swing by Northern Rock on the way back and fix that too. :rolleyes:

Funny, though -- the government of Greece paid Morgan Stanley vast sums of money to hide $10 Billion in national debt with credit default swaps so they could get into the EU. We should go find the homeless people responsible for that, too.

In the mean time, keep parting out those tools, and every time a newbie shows up lamenting the fact that they can't find good Old Iron, I'll let you explain it...

Punkinhead
04-11-2010, 04:00 PM
In the mean time, keep parting out those tools, and every time a newbie shows up lamenting the fact that they can't find good Old Iron, I'll let you explain it...If parting out one tool means a half dozen will be restored to working order, you'd be increasing the availability of working machines and doing the newbie a favor.

Punkinhead
04-11-2010, 04:09 PM
parting out a Pinto is fine.......

if you found a pristine totally original Shelby, would you part that and toss the body?I imagine it'd be worth more intact, although that's a car I'd keep for myself.

I'm not a car guy (motorcycles are my weakness), but I've already put my children on notice that if I ever have an opportunity to sell them into slavery for a Cobra then they wouldn't even have time to pack their bags. They're pretty good kids and I like them well enough, but we're talking about a Cobra here.

lazlo
04-11-2010, 04:55 PM
If parting out one tool means a half dozen will be restored to working order, you'd be increasing the availability of working machines and doing the newbie a favor.

It rarely works out that way. From what I've seen from the guys I know in real life, those parts are bought by collectors who have a functioning machine and the part the guy is selling is nicer than the one they have on their machine.

The main chassis parts never sell -- they get thrown away.


There is a difference,even though you don't see it between someone taking a machine,that COULD and SHOULD be parted out and selling it for scrap and a person parting out surplus machinery to make a profit.

Absolutely! I'm not saying that machines shouldn't be parted out -- you often see Clausing 5914's being parted out because the Reeve's drive is shot, and it would take a miraculous amount of work to get it up and running. Or machines that have been dropped by a forklift, worn beds, etc.

But many of the HSM'er boutique machines, the Atlas 7B or the South Bend 7" for example (Don's probably rolling his eyes at this point :) ), are parted out in pristine condition, because collectors pay a premium for cranks, dials, manufacturer's labels, etc in pristine condition.


wonder where Sobel used to get his parts?

I haven't dealt with Sobel personally, so I don't know what he stocks. But Joe, at Plaza machinery, I think has a good compromise solution: he keeps all the parts intact, but splits the accessories, so when you shop there for an Atlas, or South Bend, or Logan or whatever, you pay $X for the base machines, and all the rest is extra. So yeah, he's milking you for the steady rest that came with every lathe ever sold, but he doesn't cannibalize machines to sell parts.

By the way, Darrin and Jim are good people -- Darrin's donated pieces of his (dead) Excello to forum members, and I've bought several items from Jim. I just see good manual machines vanishing before our eyes, yet we seem puzzled that the increasingly rare machinist newbies are being forced to buy their machines at Harbor Freight.

John Stevenson
04-11-2010, 05:03 PM
Well I know this is going to upset a few people but the way scrap is going I have a Russian [ nearly German Nick :D ] genuine toolroom lathe that I don't use and for what I would get on the UK market compared to two tonnes of heavy scrap it's looking really tempting.

Scrappy reckons we will be up to 180 a tonne by next week.

Factoring getting it out from where it is without damaging anything, plus the tyre kickers wanting to know how many microns it's good for in each axis, what comes with it, "Oh dear I didn't realise it weighed two tonnes and was three phase"
"Can you deliver it ? "

So drag / smash it out in bits, load up and a couple of pallets and next time the scrap truck is passing it's history.

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 05:07 PM
It rarely works out that way. From what I've seen from the guys I know in real life, those parts are bought by collectors who have a functioning machine and the part the guy is selling is nicer than the one they have on their machine.

The main chassis parts never sell -- they get thrown away.

Perzactly.......

Typically, the trashed-out machines are made slightly more functional by using part from a very nice machine. Some of the parts, the hot movers, zamac, etc.

The rest of the good machine is trashed /scrapped, removing a good machine in favor of supposedly repairing a few scrapper machines that are STILL worn out, and will probably BE scrapped once the tight-fisted old buffers croak.... taking the still-good parts with them to the ladle.

And I keep hearing how "all the old machines are too clapped-out to bother fixing, you are better off getting a new machine from the communist chinese"

I see that right here on the forum......

JCHannum
04-11-2010, 05:41 PM
I just see good manual machines vanishing before our eyes, yet we seem puzzled that the increasingly rare machinist newbies are being forced to buy their machines at Harbor Freight.

While machines might be "disappearing", a typical scenario with a newbie asking for machines on this site usually ends up like this;

He is advised to look for good used US made machines and almost immediately is innundated with advice that they are impossible to find, do not exist, are too clapped out to use and a waste of money. He is told to get one of the latest and greatest imports. Then;

He is told to look at a Jet, Birmingham, Grizzly or other of the better variations. He returns in a few days saying he has seen a lathe that looks just the same in an Enco cataolg at half the price and is it as good. The same experts assure him that it is an identical machine, this is repeated after he looks at Harbor Freight. This might repeat again if he manages to find a machine at an even lower price. Eventually, with the "best" of advice, he will happily purchase the cheapest import he can find.

This is why a good used US lathe will sit unsold. In the meantime, it is eating the seller's money. If I get a good machine, lathe or otherwise, I will try to sell it at a fair price locally. If it does not move within a reasonable time, that being a few weeks, it gets parted out and I keep my money working for me.

Being a one man operation with limited space, I cannot deal with larger machines. I sell customer pickup and have been burnt too many times to make a habit of it.

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 06:06 PM
Yes, CountryWide driving around in mini-vans selling $500,000 mortgages to homeless people so their golfing buddies could repackage them as Credit Default Swaps and sell them to 401K's and Pension Funds as AAA-rated junk bonds is the reason the world-wide economy collapsed in 2008. Heck, we should round-up all those homeless people and ask for our 401K's back. Then we can send them to Finland and make them rebuild their economy, and they can swing by Northern Rock on the way back and fix that too. :rolleyes:

It wasn't just Countrywide,it was damn near every bank in the nation making those loans and not just to homeless people.It also wasn't just residential property either as we are soon going to find out.



In the mean time, keep parting out those tools, and every time a newbie shows up lamenting the fact that they can't find good Old Iron, I'll let you explain it...

I'll have to explain it since you obviously can't:p :D

wierdscience
04-11-2010, 06:40 PM
It rarely works out that way. From what I've seen from the guys I know in real life, those parts are bought by collectors who have a functioning machine and the part the guy is selling is nicer than the one they have on their machine.

The main chassis parts never sell -- they get thrown away.



Absolutely! I'm not saying that machines shouldn't be parted out -- you often see Clausing 5914's being parted out because the Reeve's drive is shot, and it would take a miraculous amount of work to get it up and running. Or machines that have been dropped by a forklift, worn beds, etc.

But many of the HSM'er boutique machines, the Atlas 7B or the South Bend 7" for example (Don's probably rolling his eyes at this point :) ), are parted out in pristine condition, because collectors pay a premium for cranks, dials, manufacturer's labels, etc in pristine condition.



I haven't dealt with Sobel personally, so I don't know what he stocks. But Joe, at Plaza machinery, I think has a good compromise solution: he keeps all the parts intact, but splits the accessories, so when you shop there for an Atlas, or South Bend, or Logan or whatever, you pay $X for the base machines, and all the rest is extra. So yeah, he's milking you for the steady rest that came with every lathe ever sold, but he doesn't cannibalize machines to sell parts.

By the way, Darrin and Jim are good people -- Darrin's donated pieces of his (dead) Excello to forum members, and I've bought several items from Jim. I just see good manual machines vanishing before our eyes, yet we seem puzzled that the increasingly rare machinist newbies are being forced to buy their machines at Harbor Freight.

That's one r BTW:D

In nearly 20 years I have only seen two what I would call pristine SB lathes and no Atlas.Rarely does one come up at surplus sales anymore either.

In places that are machinetool rich it's possibble that decent machines are being parted,but I would wager that the better ones stay whole.

Down south here if it's a SB lathe the bench machines show up used and abused from school auctions or drug out of grandpappys barn covered in feathers and s---.They still bring $1000+ at auction.While I've seen a few restorations,they all required parts,most of which didn't come from SB and the machines still had issues.

Collectors don't bother me,they are making pristine machines and most times the machines end up in estate sales.

Newbies are afraid to buy anything bigger than a SB or Atlas lathe most times for various reasons.It's the bigger machines that get sent straight to the smelter more than the small stuff.The bigger stuff is what they should buy,but they haven't learned that yet.I could sell a 100 SB or Atlas shapers and name my price,but nobody wants the three 16"+ models that have been sitting for 10 years,too big they say.

gnm109
04-11-2010, 07:02 PM
All of this hand-wringing about old machinery reminds me of my 1986 Ford Taurus. I drove it about 100K miles and then my Dad had it. When he quit driving I bought it back from him and shortly thereafter it blew the tranmsission.

I toyed with the idea of sending it to the wrecker. I got an offer of $100 as is and they would come and get it. I foolishly decided not to scrap it for sentimental reasons so a transmission shop gave me a free tow and repaired the transmission for $1,800.

A while later, I decided to sell it. I got $1,800 for it.

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 07:36 PM
I can't see what business it is to anyone else as to what an owner of a machine does with it. He is neither accountable nor answerable to anyone else as to whether he keeps or disposes of it in full or in part/s.

Its his machine to do as he wishes with.

So far as I am concerned, no machine has any intrinsic value - nor any monetary value either. Its only a machine or tool after all and its value is written down to nil as soon as I buy it. I have no sentimental attachment to any tool or machine.

If I want or need a machine and its within my price and performance range I will buy it - otherwise not. I could not care less where it was made or where it came from - it either can do the job or it can't - end of story.

When it is of no further use or is in the way its gets dismantled and disposed of - in the skip at the local Council disposal "tip". I either render it useless or dispose of it over several trips several days apart. If the Council contractor can make a buck out of what I dump - good for him. I don't give a rats as long as its gone from here.

If some one else had an identical shop and needs to me and mine and chose to hang onto it when he didn't need it, or sold it off in full or in parts how and to who ever he chooses - that's his business and not mine so my thoughts or concerns are no business of his nor should I seek to impose them on him.

I can and do appreciate that others may be concerned about how and where machines etc are or may be disposed of and to or that they really do have an affinity or attachment to a particular name or types of machine. I respect those concerns - absolutely - but that is their way and I make certain that neither of us interferes in the business of the other.

If I had a shop with "desirable" machines or tools in it and the "word got around" that the machine/s etc. were being disposed of and I got some of the "advice" and "stick-beaking" that I see here, those that give it would get very short shrift. Even more so if the level of "advice" gets to or approaches "harassment" or any sort of religious or political "zeal" or "correctness".

Bob Farr
04-11-2010, 07:43 PM
***
Newbies are afraid to buy anything bigger than a SB or Atlas lathe most times for various reasons.It's the bigger machines that get sent straight to the smelter more than the small stuff.The bigger stuff is what they should buy,but they haven't learned that yet.I could sell a 100 SB or Atlas shapers and name my price,but nobody wants the three 16"+ models that have been sitting for 10 years,too big they say.

Yep, I was that newbie. I purchased my first lathe about four years ago: a well used Atlas/Craftsman 12x42. It was missing parts, had some other parts worn beyond servicability, and I had no idea what I got myself into. Thankfully there were parts available from sacrificial machines, I restored it (cosmetically and mechanically) and I enjoyed using it for a while. It has a new owner, as does the AMMCO 6-inch shaper that I did the same thing with. I enjoyed restoring them, and it was good experience, but there's no doubt that my money would have been more wisely spent on a better machine in the first place. A new import was simply out of the question: my Dodge truck would have refused to haul it home.

It took a while for me to learn that the bigger equipment is better. For me it was also a matter of testing the water before jumping in: bench top machines allowed me to "try" the hobby before committing to heavy machinery. Now I have a Hendey 12-inch universal shaper, a Gorton O-16A Unimill, and I'm semi-seriously shopping for a bigger lathe like a Monarch 10EE (I have a Monarch 9-inch Jr to use in the interim). This is still not huge equipment, but a big step up and a significant commitment in space and money for a hobby that is stuffed into my 1-car garage.

I wish I could have grabbed the beautiful 24-inch universal shaper (G&E, I think) that went for $250 at a recent auction, but its size and heft just made it an unreasonable purchase for me, even at a fraction of the investment that I have in my Hendey 12-inch model. Of course, I paid cash in full for that Hendey 12-inch with he money I made on the AMMCO 6-inch, with some pocket change to spare.

At any rate, I don't begrudge the guys who part out machines. I needed parts, and I'll probably continue needing parts. But as I move up the scale in machine size I think it'll be harder to buy individual parts, which makes buying a good-condition machine in the first place more important than ever. I think that the parting-out phenomenon is probably focused on the smaller machines, and that larger units just go to the scrapper. That's sad, but it doesn't make economic sense for business to operate older machines, and hobby-oriented guys like me can only handle so much size and heft, so I don't see the scenario changing any time soon. The guys parting out the small machines so I could refurb my bench top Atlas/Craftsman lathe and little AMMCO shaper eventually led to me saving the Hendey 12-inch shaper from the scrapper (litterally), so in my case it was a good thing: two small machines got complete rebuilds and happy new owners, bigger machines got saved because my hobby interests grew, and bigger-still machines may get saved yet. It's all good.

Bob

Your Old Dog
04-11-2010, 07:43 PM
I haven't read the entire thread so if someone said it was sacrilegious to carve up an antique I'm not picking on them.

There was a time on this board when a good many people felt it poor form to modify a piece of equipment if it was in pristine condition. What I said then and repeat now is if I want to bore a hole through my lathe to mount a light or soda pop machine I will do it without hesitation. I also said then and believe now that I am not the keeper of my equipment so that some clown can walk down my driveway after I"m gone, cheat my family and buy it for pennys on the dollar.

Rustybolt
04-11-2010, 08:22 PM
#43
Word

A seller tries to maximise his profit, a buyer tries to maximise his savings.

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 08:30 PM
#43
Word

A seller tries to maximise his profit, a buyer tries to maximise his savings.

In an ideal world - sure.

But in a "desperation" scenario, the seller is trying to reduce his losses and a buyer is seeking to minimise his costs.

Not all buyers and sellers are "commercial" - many are "private" (aka "retail") - as many HSM-ers.

Mcgyver
04-11-2010, 09:04 PM
I can't see what business it is to anyone else as to what an owner of a machine does with it. He is neither accountable nor answerable to anyone else
Forget we're talking shapers and lathes for a moment and think about your statement; you're essentially saying because of property rights there's no social accountability.

None of us live in self sufficient isolation (well most), ultimately we owe our existence to being part of a society....and being part of it we are absolutely accountable to it. Suppose some someone bought 100 art works from the 13th century (renaissance, like da vinci) and being a complete asshat decided to burn them one night because he was cold. While entirely within his property rights, I suggest it would be a monumental wrong against humanity. Surely you wouldn't think it ok, or wouldn't condone the book burnings in Sarajevo or the Taliban destroying the Buddhas of Bamyan?

Of course not. See, there is social accountability. Its not about property rights, its about what's right.

we are talking machine tools though and a 7B no matter how nice isn't the Mona Lisa so i'm not saying its a crime against humanity to part it out...but...the point is there absolutely has to be a social contract; maybe a 7B isn't where it kicks in but it is complete antisocial to say that because i have 100% property rights it NEVER kicks in.

I suppose what i'm say is to at least consider the value of something to posterity as you're considering the value of it you

lakeside53
04-11-2010, 09:19 PM
I have a friend that runs a large $ volume and profitable business parting out chainsaws...

In addition to the masses of old saws, he buys brand new mid-level and pro-saws (not low-end consumer junk), busts them down and makes 5x his investment in days to weeks.

O.K., on new saws you can buy the parts from a dealer, but the prices are so high (even TO the dealer), it makes sense to offer this service. No lack of buyers... and EVERY part sells.

Old lathes? yep... someone has to provide the parts to keep the other running.

Bridgeport's? heck, I've bought a ton old iron to fix to worn out and misused mills... Thank god someone was parting them out.:D

Punkinhead
04-11-2010, 09:29 PM
I have a friend that runs a large $ volume and profitable business parting out chainsaws...
Who'd have thought there were that many chainsaw collectors out there? I've read that's mostly who buys pieces from parted out machines.

Davo J
04-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Talking about parting out a machine but not a lathe.
About 20 years ago I had a really nice done up car (worked motor/ suspension roll cage etc) that I tried to sell for a lot less than it owed me and couldn't sell it.
Then a few guys were asking about the parts, so I decided to part it out and sold everything right down to the shell and got 50% more money for it.
Never have parted anything else out, but that car had me beat why nobody would buy it whole thing with full registration.:confused:
The guy that bought the shell ended up getting it going and re registering it.
Dave

J Tiers
04-11-2010, 10:37 PM
I have no problem with parting out a machine...... like a lathe

There are plenty of them that have a bad bed problem, and are not repairable, or not economically repairable. Their best and highest use is to supply parts to other machines.

The problem occurs when a very good machine is broken down for parts to repair machines that should be scrapped.... And then half of it is thrown away anyhow.

That's pretty much like shooting rhinoceros for the horn only....

if you own it, you can do whatever..... break it up with a sledge, part it, let it rust, whatever. But you can't stop me thinking you are a horse's ass on account of doing it....

There are lots of 10" Logan lathes parted out. I could use a better bed than mine has... it's OK, not too worn, but has some scores that I have epoxy filled... I wouldn't mind replacing it. I could do that and have it ground to new spec without having the shop "down"... and pass teh old bed along, maybe.

Now, I KNOW that bunches of Logans with beds I could use were parted out, and the bed was "automatically" scrapped as unsaleable, unshippable, and useless. But finding one is hard, and if you do, it's expensive..... because so many were thrown away by the 'part-out folks"..

oldtiffie
04-11-2010, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
I can't see what business it is to anyone else as to what an owner of a machine does with it. He is neither accountable nor answerable to anyone else


Forget we're talking shapers and lathes for a moment and think about your statement; you're essentially saying because of property rights there's no social accountability.

None of us live in self sufficient isolation (well most), ultimately we owe our existence to being part of a society....and being part of it we are absolutely accountable to it. Suppose some someone bought 100 art works from the 13th century (renaissance, like da vinci) and being a complete asshat decided to burn them one night because he was cold. While entirely within his property rights, I suggest it would be a monumental wrong against humanity. Surely you wouldn't think it ok, or wouldn't condone the book burnings in Sarajevo or the Taliban destroying the Buddhas of Bamyan?

Of course not. See, there is social accountability. Its not about property rights, its about what's right.

we are talking machine tools though and a 7B no matter how nice isn't the Mona Lisa so i'm not saying its a crime against humanity to part it out...but...the point is there absolutely has to be a social contract; maybe a 7B isn't where it kicks in but it is complete antisocial to say that because i have 100% property rights it NEVER kicks in.

I suppose what i'm say is to at least consider the value of something to posterity as you're considering the value of it you

A very thoughtful and insightful post McGyver - many thanks.

I am 100% with you as regards social obligations and liabilities.

I am not at all sure that anything I have or do - or even less so, me - is ever even remotely likely to be regarded as a national treasure.

If the people or the nation want it classified that way, then let them "declare" and buy, maintain and protect it at public expense.

Or put it another way, if I were to dispose of my stuff, then in the unlikely event that it may become "rare and desirable", my stuff not being there would or could only enhance the value of similar items in the hands of those that choose to keep them.

I'd hardly equate destroying my stuff with the looting of Egyptian and Greek artifacts by "Elgin" (ie the "Elgin marbles") and the like in private collections and national museums. Looting and pillaging of national treasures is not just limited to some of the instances you quote either - just about all the countries (and their armies) in Europe have been guilty of it.

Just as acquisition with "checque books" and skulduggery have encourage thieves.

I hardly think that anything I've got or had or done is ever likely to attract that sort of attention.

I will be damned if I will subject myself, my wife or my Executors to the feeding frenzy that goes with some of the carrion-eaters who thrive and profit at the expense or and with no regard for the feelings of any who may have to dispose of anything I leave.

I will be damned too if I will cater to any of the blatant gloating that goes on here - ever!!!

As most of my stuff is "Chinese", I guess that many here might regard my disposing of it to scrap as "good riddance".

A good case of "ashes to ashes" and "back to whence it came"?

I do appreciate good art, music and architecture.

I watch most of the UK-produced excellent series on "Antiques Roadshow" (fabulous) as well as most historical stuff. I am staggered that people could afford to have that stuff made and built and maintained although I'm not too pleased as to how a lot of it was funded or made or built though. David Attenborough and the like are "way up there" with my wife and I too.

I am not a complete troglodite yet - but I'm working hard at it and getting closer to it by the day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglodites

Dr Stan
04-12-2010, 12:23 AM
So lending money to people for things they cannot afford at zero intrest under government mandate running the banking system on fumes is your definition of a free market?You must teach:rolleyes:

I do not know where you get your "information", but it certainly is not based in reality.

dp
04-12-2010, 12:58 AM
As a kindred thought - I remember watching a movie where they destroyed a perfectly good and rare general aviation airplane. I cringed but realized immediately the value of the surviving aircraft of that type went up. Bad it happened, good for those who have one. Every time a P-51 goes in the value of the rest goes up. For more outrage on this topic read the history of Frank Talman and Paul Mantz. They bought thousands of WWII war surplus aircraft and got all their money back by selling the fuel in the tanks. Many of the rest were scrapped. They made a killing and the ones that survived are worth a fortune.

I don't think that is going to happen to an Atlas lathe, though, but it might happen to an Atlas shaper vise.

I used to hate seeing musicians smash guitars on stage. Still do, actually. It would be nice to have a nicely customized Les Paul or Fender such as I've seen destroyed in a brainless frenzy.

Parting out machines is one last way to give them life. In many places a shaper vise is worth more than the shaper. This is because the vise is needed but the shaper is not. That will get parted out, make no mistake about it. It has nothing to do with the seller having an MBA or if the seller is or is not a machinist or even a wascowy wepubwican. That's just how the market works.

When I sold my airplane I got $5000 for it (1985). I could have sold the engine for that - it had effectively zero time on the clock. I could have gotten $1000 for each wing. And so on. And if I'd have had time I'd have done just that because at that time I really needed the money.

I'm annoyed like Tiffie is about this subject. It is the seller's decision what to do with an item. It is absurd to blame it on one's education choices, though I do agree that the MBA program is generally a bad thing for people who don't see the world as a deal, sale, or investment.

lakeside53
04-12-2010, 02:47 AM
Who'd have thought there were that many chainsaw collectors out there? I've read that's mostly who buys pieces from parted out machines.


Some, but the vast majority are repairing current or recent saw models for use.

Then there's guys like me. I built a BRAND NEW "1988" Stihl 056 Magum by buying up NOS parts over two years. Every part... :cool:

wierdscience
04-12-2010, 03:50 AM
I do not know where you get your "information", but it certainly is not based in reality.

Partly from a very lengthy Wiki article,the rest from observation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#Causes

One very telling exchange comes at the very end-



"The crisis has cast doubt on the legacy of Alan Greenspan, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve System from 1986 to January 2006. Senator Chris Dodd claimed that Greenspan created the "perfect storm".[258] When asked to comment on the crisis, Greenspan spoke as follows:[127]

The current credit crisis will come to an end when the overhang of inventories of newly built homes is largely liquidated, and home price deflation comes to an end. That will stabilize the now-uncertain value of the home equity that acts as a buffer for all home mortgages, but most importantly for those held as collateral for residential mortgage-backed securities. Very large losses will, no doubt, be taken as a consequence of the crisis. But after a period of protracted adjustment, the U.S. economy, and the world economy more generally, will be able to get back to business.-"



Fannie and Freddie still hold $5Trillion in unsecured loans and look to need another large cash infusion this summer.To date GSE's have not been reformed.The very lending practices that got us into this mess are still being practiced,not by private banks,but instead by the GSE's.

snowman
04-12-2010, 10:42 AM
This whole thread is hilarious. People judging others for what they do with THEIR machines.

My first lathe was an atlas 9". The babbit headstock was shot, and I didn't know how to cast new babbits and get the machine running. What I did know hot to do was post on Ebay. I posted all of the parts (all sold btw) on Ebay and made 750 for all of the parts that I had. With that I bought a womped out leblond 14" plain bearing lathe. Sold that one too. At a profit. Bought a Smart and Browne 10x24. In the process I picked up a Van Norman #12. Also have a small assortment of other machines which have been paid for by buying and selling equipment.

This is a hobby for me, but my shop has to break even. I don't make a lot of money in my daytime job. I can't afford to save my pennies for years to buy nice machines, I have to turn things over. Somehow though, that process of turning the machines over at a profit makes me a bad person, because I'm not selling them whole.

At the end of the day, I have a shop because I've worked the system. I haven't robbed anyone, I haven't stolen or cheated anyone. I've advertised things as they are, and been extremely flexible in my shipping.

I've tried to sell things whole. Asking prices are like dogs assholes. They've all got one, and for some reason the buyers like to come over and just sniff, to see if it might suit them. I don't have the time to deal with 15 tire kickers, 5 lowball offers, and 1 reasonable offer. I do have the time to take a machine apart, quickly clean it up, and post it on Ebay (all done between 9PM and 7AM).

My time, my property, my choices.

Here's a real kicker...when I'm done with the Van Norman, it's going to the scrap yard...minus a few parts which will be posted on Ebay. I know it's condition, I'm not passing that machine on to someone else. But I'm sure if I were to spend countless hours scraping the table and replace the screws, I could resell it for what I originally paid for it...and I'd only be out my time.

Who in the hell are all of you to judge what someone else wants to do with their equipment, that they purchased with their own money? I'm sure in the next thread however, you'll happily complain about the government making decisions for us.

dp
04-12-2010, 11:06 AM
Here's a real kicker...when I'm done with the Van Norman, it's going to the scrap yard...minus a few parts which will be posted on Ebay. I know it's condition, I'm not passing that machine on to someone else. But I'm sure if I were to spend countless hours scraping the table and replace the screws, I could resell it for what I originally paid for it...and I'd only be out my time.

The OP question was why part out a good machine. Your machine does not qualify because, by your claim, it is run out. But the question in the OP itself is not judgmental, and many of the answers are also not judgmental. No need to get your shorts knotted.

Dr Stan
04-12-2010, 11:11 AM
Partly from a very lengthy Wiki article,the rest from observation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis#Causes

One very telling exchange comes at the very end-



"The crisis has cast doubt on the legacy of Alan Greenspan, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve System from 1986 to January 2006. Senator Chris Dodd claimed that Greenspan created the "perfect storm".[258] When asked to comment on the crisis, Greenspan spoke as follows:[127]

The current credit crisis will come to an end when the overhang of inventories of newly built homes is largely liquidated, and home price deflation comes to an end. That will stabilize the now-uncertain value of the home equity that acts as a buffer for all home mortgages, but most importantly for those held as collateral for residential mortgage-backed securities. Very large losses will, no doubt, be taken as a consequence of the crisis. But after a period of protracted adjustment, the U.S. economy, and the world economy more generally, will be able to get back to business.-"



Fannie and Freddie still hold $5Trillion in unsecured loans and look to need another large cash infusion this summer.To date GSE's have not been reformed.The very lending practices that got us into this mess are still being practiced,not by private banks,but instead by the GSE's.

From your post #27:

"Undergrad Ec classes are why the economy is FUBAR ,too many Social communists teaching."

Now you are quoting Alan Greenspan, a right wing free market advocate and one of Ayn Rand's follower's and lovers. Consequently, your lack of understanding of economics is so far off base it is mind boggling. Another point is your source of Wikipedia, a site that anyone can post anything about anyone or anything. It is the equivalent of citing some mimeographed flier as an authority on a subject.

RussZHC
04-12-2010, 11:19 AM
This thread is part of the reason I have thoroughly enjoyed lurking here.

Though I think I hold similar views to Mcgyver (post #48), I would suggest its always a matter of perspective.

I had no clue about chainsaws as example, to me, who cares? But clearly there are those out there who do care or are at least indicating at the moment they care by $$$.

From the whole society view, is there a line that can be drawn? And does it then not become similar to what is usually described as a political policy issue, that being the individual or the group?

As example, I happen to be fascinated by architecture, but does effort go into saving a specific building locally since it is the only one? Or does it become less so if it is the only one in Western Canada (as opposed to nationally or in the world...i.e. perspective related to scale). And how does path of ownership, in this or any example, effect whatever the current view is? I mean that vintage Cobra that was Shelby's personal ride back in the day certainly carries more $$$ value now. Without some provenance, does what maybe one of one, of whatever, demand to be saved? What is of historical significance to some would be scraped by others. Extrapolated out, nothing would ever be tossed. I mean how many of us thought vinyl would make a come back of sorts?

Perhaps more to the point, I am one of those "newbies" and looking for a "given" lathe. It is a matter of perspective. Located in what could be described as a "machine tool desert", I would be more than happy to pay asking price on many machines out there. But I am not "there" and if that 16x60 475v lathe comes along locally at even less $$$ than the 9"/10"/11"/12" model I am looking for due to size limitations, I simply can not make it work, though I wish I could.
You may have such a machine for sale and I maybe willing to pay more for shipping than the machine costs but 2x more, 5x more?

pcarpenter
04-12-2010, 12:17 PM
I didn't read *every* post in detail and I know I am just reinforcing some of what's already been posted. I would also like to preface anything I say by saying that I nearly cry when I see old machines destroyed.

However, the issue is not greed it is necessity. For any old item, if there are not new parts available there are two alternatives: Treat the item as disposable, or buy used parts. As unattractive as the parting out of machine may be, simply trashing a really old machine at the point parts are neaded is even uglier. In short, parting out of old machines may be the lesser of two evils.

The longer these items have been out of production, the more the need for old parts. Add to that the fact that I think we are seeing an influx in demand for old machines from hobbyists. This increased demand has come long *after* the bulk of these great old manual machines were scrapped out by industry when they were outmoded. I live just a few miles from Caterpillar.....I would probably cry if I knew the number of old Monarch lathes that were turned into track shoes or engine blocks after Cat started moving to NC machines....but that certainly mostly happened when I was just a kid....it's done and over with and you can't get those machines back....for parts or use as complete machines. That leaves fewer great machine tools to make do with today.

What we could all hope for would be some discretion in just which machines get parted out. What is a factor here is that we don't all live in the same neighborhood and a machine that might sell whole at a better price within say one or two hundred miles of the guy who needs it is only going to be saved from scrap by parting it out and mailing stuff across the country if there is no one nearby to buy it whole. Might we regret this when the few remaining usable or restored great old machine tools get to be even fewer? Possibly. I remember that my Dad's antique car club used to watch old movies of great antique cars in some smash-up derby or being crushed in industry....they would sit around and go "oh.....no! That was a ______" but the folks doing it at the time just saw them as old jalopies.

Paul

Too_Many_Tools
04-12-2010, 12:50 PM
So will our children be parting out Chinese lathes?

And when you die, will your children part out your personal machines?

Or better yet, just sell them to the scrapper for pennies since that is the most efficient route in terms of time spent?

TMT

lazlo
04-12-2010, 01:18 PM
The problem occurs when a very good machine is broken down for parts to repair machines that should be scrapped.... And then half of it is thrown away anyhow.

That's pretty much like shooting rhinoceros for the horn only....

if you own it, you can do whatever..... break it up with a sledge, part it, let it rust, whatever. But you can't stop me thinking you are a horse's ass on account of doing it....

My sentiments exactly.

wierdscience
04-12-2010, 01:18 PM
From your post #27:

"Undergrad Ec classes are why the economy is FUBAR ,too many Social communists teaching."

Now you are quoting Alan Greenspan, a right wing free market advocate and one of Ayn Rand's follower's and lovers. Consequently, your lack of understanding of economics is so far off base it is mind boggling. Another point is your source of Wikipedia, a site that anyone can post anything about anyone or anything. It is the equivalent of citing some mimeographed flier as an authority on a subject.

Typical hatchet job there Stan I suppose you believe chairman O's polices are just brilliant:rolleyes:

You can blame credit defaults,deriviatives and so called exotics all you want,the underlying problem is still mountains of unsecured debt.

lazlo
04-12-2010, 01:29 PM
Now you are quoting Alan Greenspan, a right wing free market advocate and one of Ayn Rand's follower's and lovers.

Greenspan was actually close friends with Ayn Rand (yes, he's that old :)). Greenspan was also a major proponent of Credit Default Swaps, as a natural evolution of unrestrained capitalism. Greenspan had a public debate with Warren Buffet, who called Credit Default Swaps "Weapons of Financial Mass Destruction."

During the debate, Warren Buffet said that Credit Default Swaps are "Contracts devised by madmen." He also warned that "Large amounts of risk have become concentrated in the hands of relatively few derivatives dealers ... which can trigger serious systemic problems."

The irony is that this debate was in 2003 -- during Bush's first term, when Republicans dominated both houses of Congress: 5 years before the world-wide financial collapse.

Too_Many_Tools
04-12-2010, 02:15 PM
Typical hatchet job there Stan I suppose you believe chairman O's polices are just brilliant:rolleyes:

You can blame credit defaults,deriviatives and so called exotics all you want,the underlying problem is still mountains of unsecured debt.


And greed.

The delibrate destruction of property to gain a few extra dollars by a chosen few.

Just like destroying a machine to benefit the seller.

TMT

krutch
04-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Lazlo must be trying out for a cabinet position. By how I am reading his posts', if it isn't given to him YOU'RE greedy. I have nothing against him, don't know him, but I don't like socialist thinking. Not how America became the greatest country the world has ever known!
FREE MARKET? There hasn't been a free market in America since at least the late 1800s. Maybe earlier. I don't care how it's looked at, there is Gov. interferance in the market! Maybe that is needed, but Gov. is never satisfied with the control they have. They always want more. They only should be involved enough to keep one from stepping on anothers' rights. As it is, they want to control every aspect of the market. This is one reason for todays problems. The market can and does regulate itself, when left to its own. China would not be able to dump the trash in America which they do were it not for Gov. interferance. They (China) get preferance because they are holding the loans which Our Gov. has borrowed to give to others who can't and don't intend to pay it back. This could not happen with a free market as such practice will remove that entity from the market.
The town where I grew up is going to spend a bunch of taxpayer $$$ to build over passes for the railroad crossings on main street and a couple of other streets. Two mainlines through town, Santa Fe and Burlington. Burlington has a switch yard here and often blocks Main St. crossing to 'make up' trains. Santa Fe has a switch yard out of town, small yard. Neither RR need to block crossings. Overpass idea not needed. Going to get 'em anyway. Santa Fe only blocks one crossing and only for a short time anyway. Plenty of crossing available when they do block. Burlington could 'make up' trains from the other end of the yard and block no crossings. I know this, I worked out there! But the elected dorks need votes so we are going to spend someone elses' money for what is not needed. And put some people out of their homes and some business's out of business! Just so someone can claim to be doing for the area and get re-elected.
The area got a prison twenty or so years ago. Three times it was voted no prison! Got it anyway. Now have gangs and more dope problems than ever. Was a nice place to raise a family, work, and retire. The jobs that were supposed to be created have mostly been out of town. Construction of the prison was out of state company. Guards hired from other parts of the state, not locally, as promised. This is the Gov. at work. Force things and do that which is not in the interest of the area.
But then maybe I'm greedy.
Krutch


MCAPTWandering

lazlo
04-12-2010, 03:09 PM
Lazlo must be trying out for a cabinet position. By how I am reading his posts', if it isn't given to him YOU'RE greedy.

You're mixing political commentary, which was instigated by Weirdscience, with my "responsible machine tool owner" message: please don't part-out a good machine just because you'll make a couple of dollars more off the sale.

Yes, you have every right to do whatever you want with your own machine, but so do the bean counters that outsource manufacturing to China. As McGyver so eloquently put it, just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Dr Stan
04-12-2010, 03:53 PM
You're mixing political commentary, which was instigated by Weirdscience

Thanks for pointing this out. I for one have decided not to make anymore posts on this topic as it will not accomplish anything, which in itself is unfortunate.

pcarpenter
04-12-2010, 04:16 PM
You're mixing political commentary, which was instigated by Weirdscience, with my "responsible machine tool owner" message: please don't part-out a good machine just because you'll make a couple of dollars more off the sale.


Are you serious Robert? What's written below was written by you...before Darin posted *anything*.



Unrestrained capitalism. A.K.A. greed.

Seriously, I doubt even Ayn Rand would want you to part out a machine to maximize profits if it's an increasingly rare machine.

They do the same to the Atlas 7B (shaper) -- part out perfectly good machines. Shame.



The implication of what you wrote is

capitolisim =bad
parting out machines=bad
Ayn Rand=bad

What are we supposed to think about your politics? Later on, you go on to talk about credit default swaps and the first Bush administration. What's next a diatribe about how evil "Neocon's" are for the unrestrained destruction of perfectly good machine tools and that Karl Rove personally busted up a 10EE with a sledgehammer??:eek:

My point is that the injection of politics is a hard finger for most of us to imagine you pointing at anyone else. People always see it when someone else does it, but never when they let their own world view color thier thinking.

Paul

lazlo
04-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Are you serious Robert? What's written below was written by you...before Darin posted *anything*.

The implication of what you wrote is

capitolisim =bad
parting out machines=bad
Ayn Rand=bad

Capitalism is not politics, it's economics. Ayn Rand was an ex-patriot of Communist Russia and profoundly libertarian, atheist, and decidedly not conservative, or Republican. The reason I brought up Ayn Rand is that she advocated a philosophy of self-interest (i.e., greed) and completely rejected altruism as a character flaw, which is perfectly apropos here: the choice is to maximize profits by parting out a perfectly good machine, versus taking the path that is not optimal from a monetary standpoint, but preserves the rapidly diminishing pool of manual machine tools.

So yes, I believe laissez-faire capitalism is bad (unless you're an executive), parting out good machine tools for a quick buck is bad, and Ayn Rand was misguided and insane, probably due to the hardships she suffered as a Jew growing up during the Russian revolution.

Weirdscience interpreted that as "Socialist" teachings that were endemic of sub-prime mortagages and Obama's failed policies, and the thread went down the drain from there.

John Stevenson
04-12-2010, 05:12 PM
I get sick of hearing what 'I' should do with tools 'I' own because i have done it both ways.

Years ago I bought a little shaper, 7" Alba off a scrap man that had literally fell off a lorry being delivered to a school. Not new but in pristine condition except the cast iron base was smashed in 3 pieces.
Gave 10 for it, about $20 in those days and he even threw a single phase motor in as well.

Made an angle iron frame for it and cladded it with steel panels but fitted the original cast door and it looked nice. Weighed the base in at another scrapyard and got 5 for it :D

Never really used it and short of a house move I sold it, played fair and advertised it for 10, what I'd paid.
Had to advertise it 3 times before some purse and Reliant merchant came to collect it.

Just after this I was offered a shaper 14" Butlers that had done one weeks work in it's life.
I didn't want it so advertised it as free for collection.
No takers so it got scrapped.

Later on when the local college shut down I bought loads of machines because they had no takers and had 2 weeks to clear the premises.
They gave me another shaper just to get it out the doors.
This time I Ebayed it and it made 125 I think second time round.

So you think you are doing fair and all you get are tyre kickers and waste of space merchants.

No scrap man has ever asked me if all the change wheels are there, has it got bed wear or does it come with a collet check and a full set of collets.

lazlo
04-12-2010, 05:16 PM
I get sick of hearing what 'I' should do with tools 'I' own because i have done it both ways.

Fair enough John, and I'll say no more on the matter, except to clarify once more that I'm talking about parting out good, working machinery. The machine is yours and you can ride it naked down Main Street if it suits you.

But if this thread has served nothing more than make people think about the issues associated with the preservation versus parting of old iron decision, then it was worth it.

John Stevenson
04-12-2010, 05:23 PM
The machine is yours and you can ride it naked down Main Street if it suits you.


Yer right,
could you imagine me stark naked like a white beached whale but with a hairy arse riding that POS Bridgeport down Main Street [ which happens to be at the end of ower road, the pubs on the corner ] ?

Chances are knowing Long Eaton Plod is that they will arrest the Bridgeport for having a wimpy R8 taper.

Too_Many_Tools
04-12-2010, 05:47 PM
Yes, you have every right to do whatever you want with your own machine, but so do the bean counters that outsource manufacturing to China.

As McGyver so eloquently put it, just because you have the RIGHT TO DO something doesn't mean it's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

Well said.

TMT

wierdscience
04-12-2010, 06:55 PM
Capitalism is not politics, it's economics. Ayn Rand was an ex-patriot of Communist Russia and profoundly libertarian, atheist, and decidedly not conservative, or Republican. The reason I brought up Ayn Rand is that she advocated a philosophy of self-interest (i.e., greed) and completely rejected altruism as a character flaw, which is perfectly apropos here: the choice is to maximize profits by parting out a perfectly good machine, versus taking the path that is not optimal from a monetary standpoint, but preserves the rapidly diminishing pool of manual machine tools.

So yes, I believe laissez-faire capitalism is bad (unless you're an executive), parting out good machine tools for a quick buck is bad, and Ayn Rand was misguided and insane, probably due to the hardships she suffered as a Jew growing up during the Russian revolution.

Weirdscience interpreted that as "Socialist" teachings that were endemic of sub-prime mortagages and Obama's failed policies, and the thread went down the drain from there.

Nonsense,it was the leftist mantra "Unrestrained Capitalism" ,what a bunch of BS.That more than ever is a term used by a Rube who allowed his or herself to be sucked into a Madoff scam out of greed and now that they have taken it in the rear it's the fault of "Unrestrained capitalism" ,George Bush or Ann Rand,utter bunk.

I still cannot believe the ebay seller is getting flamed because he parted out a like new BUT INCOMPLETE lathe.I guess if it were missing a tailstock or a saddle he should keep it intact for the next hundred years trying to sell a lathe that doesn't run or make chips.

I also love the attitude that somehow all those parts by magic just jumped off the machine,cleaned and listed themselves on ebay,ya he's greedy enough to work for a living.

Then the term "Pristine" was thrown out there loosely.Pristine means new,in the box,complete.Incomplete does not equal pristine.

Then there is the term "running or working" that's about as refined as a hand grenade.I have seen and used "running lathes" where the headstock spindle hovered in the bearings and the ways were half round instead of prismatic.

Geez,I guess if I ever get another lathe that's missing the tailstock and the apron,but the motor runs I should keep it intact in perpetuity forever out of some sense of "preserving old arn"

oldtiffie
04-12-2010, 07:35 PM
I get sick of hearing what 'I' should do with tools 'I' own because i have done it both ways.

Years ago I bought a little shaper, 7" Alba off a scrap man that had literally fell off a lorry being delivered to a school. Not new but in pristine condition except the cast iron base was smashed in 3 pieces.
Gave 10 for it, about $20 in those days and he even threw a single phase motor in as well.

Made an angle iron frame for it and cladded it with steel panels but fitted the original cast door and it looked nice. Weighed the base in at another scrapyard and got 5 for it :D

Never really used it and short of a house move I sold it, played fair and advertised it for 10, what I'd paid.
Had to advertise it 3 times before some purse and Reliant merchant came to collect it.

Just after this I was offered a shaper 14" Butlers that had done one weeks work in it's life.
I didn't want it so advertised it as free for collection.
No takers so it got scrapped.

Later on when the local college shut down I bought loads of machines because they had no takers and had 2 weeks to clear the premises.
They gave me another shaper just to get it out the doors.
This time I Ebayed it and it made 125 I think second time round.

So you think you are doing fair and all you get are tyre kickers and waste of space merchants.

No scrap man has ever asked me if all the change wheels are there, has it got bed wear or does it come with a collet check and a full set of collets.

I agree with John.

Its his stuff to do as he likes with.

If others who are so concerned about sticking their noses into other peoples business to the extent that want effective control, over what and how they buy and sell, then I suggest that they put their money where their mouth is and either pay up or shut up.

I don't mind - and encourage - fair comment, but not to the extent where people are vilified or harassed when they are exercising their rights.

Rustybolt
04-12-2010, 07:39 PM
you're essentially saying because of property rights there's no social accountability.


What is being said is; when I am left alone to persue my own happiness society benefits even if that is the last thing I had in mind.

But for Benjamin Franklins' editing our declaration would have read ."Life, Liberty, and Property."
The right to freely aquire and dispose of property is essential to freedom.

John Stevenson
04-12-2010, 07:56 PM
I suggest that they put their money where their mouth is and either pay up or shut up.



That's the problem though they don't.

I have lost count the number of times I've been asked to keep a look out for a lathe or mill and when I find one they'll get back to me but never do.

When the college was closing they contacted me because they knew I had contacts and could get the word round.

They had sorted everything out into lots, their doing not mine. All the machines were complete with everything that was meant to go with it, chucks, steadies manuals etc, nothing left back for extra cash, they needed to clear everything in two weeks.

I advertised it on as many forums as I could, basically listing a load of machines with prices.
Bridgeports with tooling and slotting heads went for 750 to 1000
Larrison lathes went from 150 for L5's to 800 for M300's
Vises, benches, rotary tables, dividing heads went for peanuts.

I bought a few bits and pieces before hand but no machines.

We put aside 3 days to get machines sorted and loaded, I had a crane lorry there for 2 days full time lifting anything onto trucks or trailers for free.

Hardly anyone who said they were interested came, Tim Leech came with car and trailer and bought a fair bit of gear.

At the end of the 3 days I bought 3 Bridgeports , 7 Harrison lathes, 2 CNC trainer lathes, 4 large dividing heads and a load of other bits to get them out the college. I still have tins of clamps, hydraulic vises, angle plates, box plates that have never been sorted

After the machines were sold on I had people saying to me "I wish I had known about these "

J Tiers
04-12-2010, 08:25 PM
Of course it is a matter of personal property , and you can do whatever you want with it...... so long as it is legal.

Plenty of the "suits" do that daily........... I've seen where they threw out a houseload of very nice antique furniture..... like $15,000 to $25,000 worth (and never fear, doubters, THAT stuff sells). Why? Because they couldn't be bothered to deal with valuing it and selling it, all they wanted was to clear and sell the house.

They do it at work..... for the tax write-off, they scrap NEW machinery when a plant downsizes.

And oldtiffie and others have PROUDLY stated that they will scrap ALL their stuff, or, in Snowman's case, certain items of it, when they are done with it, and NEVER ASK if anyone else wanted it..... evidently REFUSING to entertain an offer even if one were made.

It's your choice..... But don't do that, and then ask that people respect you for it...... We can respect you for other things, but we'll always ask why that otherwise smart guy did something so damn silly.

Judgmental? YES!

Why not?

It's as much my right to be judgmental as it it your right to pay to scrap your own possessions, when others would be happy to pay you something and take care of hauling.

snowman
04-12-2010, 08:47 PM
"in Snowman's case, certain items of it, when they are done with it, and NEVER ASK if anyone else wanted it....."

I assume you are referring to the Van Norman. I'll be keeping the head and the gears. All that will be left is an empty casting with whomped out ways. If anyone wants it, they are welcome to take it, if they plan to use it, they can have it for free.

I just don't like dealing with people coming to the house to look at stuff, each "sorta interested"....

I gave away a majority of the Leblond to a welder neighbor, just because I didn't want to deal with it. All he wanted it for was spinning parts to flame/spatter weld. He was happy as heck. Worked out great cause for a few years I had a certified tank welder that would help me out as needed (I moved away).

I'm not trying to discard of things behind people's back, but I'm not going to give up precious time bending over backwards and taking a financial loss to get rid of things either...

J Tiers
04-12-2010, 08:59 PM
I'm not trying to discard of things behind people's back, but I'm not going to give up precious time bending over backwards and taking a financial loss to get rid of things either...

OK, I didn't see where you were gonna strip it first. That makes sense if the rest is too worn to mess with.*

But is it less of a loss to toss the item than get paid for it and have it hauled away free to boot?

I know YOU didn't say it, but I HAVE seen where people say "I'll break it up for junk before I'll take less than I think it's worth"...... Which makes no sense to me.

* of course, "too worn to mess with" is pretty variable..... there ARE folks who will take on big jobs... just not very many of them.... When you see what they do, they'll get a whole Model T from most of a chassis and half an engine.... And it isn't as if there are so few model T's, either, they are still thick on the ground compared to most machine tools of similar age.

oldtiffie
04-12-2010, 09:39 PM
Of course it is a matter of personal property , and you can do whatever you want with it...... so long as it is legal.

Plenty of the "suits" do that daily........... I've seen where they threw out a houseload of very nice antique furniture..... like $15,000 to $25,000 worth (and never fear, doubters, THAT stuff sells). Why? Because they couldn't be bothered to deal with valuing it and selling it, all they wanted was to clear and sell the house.

They do it at work..... for the tax write-off, they scrap NEW machinery when a plant downsizes.

And oldtiffie and others have PROUDLY stated that they will scrap ALL their stuff, or, in Snowman's case, certain items of it, when they are done with it, and NEVER ASK if anyone else wanted it..... evidently REFUSING to entertain an offer even if one were made.

It's your choice..... But don't do that, and then ask that people respect you for it...... We can respect you for other things, but we'll always ask why that otherwise smart guy did something so damn silly.

Judgmental? YES!

Why not?

It's as much my right to be judgmental as it it your right to pay to scrap your own possessions, when others would be happy to pay you something and take care of hauling.


JT and others.

I read and respect your opinions. I respect your rights to have and stick to them. I am even willing to discuss some of them, and change my mind or stance as needs arise.

Like John, I've done my share - and lots more - of "good things" for "worthy causes" and like may others got bugger all thanks or appreciation and oftentimes got pretty badly burned in the process.

I've done stuff - often at considerable cost and inconvenience and got little thanks or appreciation as if it was there right to expect - and in a couple of cases - and pretty well direct me to do it as and how and where they wanted. I've had the contents of my shop and what I can do spread a lot wider in a lot more detail a lot quicker than I liked as well. Having some bugger amble or drive in and just "want a look around" and/or get me to do something cos "Joe down the road" told him I'd do it etc. did not impress me favourably at all. Didn't impress my wife either!! Some of them are more than a little demanding and "stand-overish" as well.

I never make the mistake of lending tools out - for obvious reasons. I detest people asking me to give or sell stuff to them at throw-away prices or wanting to have "first option/refusal" on something that they fancy - with the pretty obvious hint that they'd like it (delivered?) "now".

All too often, once you do a good turn its gets on the "grape-vine" and you (me) gets regarded as an "easy mark", and the Village idiot - as well as getting used and passed around like the "Town Bike" (aka local harlot).

Refuse one and its not long before several take you to task for it.

I've asked several "Tradies" and local business owners and they have had it happen or at least "tried on".

I have no objection at all to anyone "parting out" or selling anything that they own.

I do have issues with people who think that they have the right to demand that I concede to their requirements or demands in this regard.

People can be as judgmental about me as they like but they'd better be ready for me having my say about that as well if needs be.

Davo J
04-12-2010, 10:25 PM
I look at it this way, If you buy a machine and then find out something inside is broke or worn out, the manufacturer is long gone, where are you going to get a good part from?
That would be from the bloke that took a good one apart to sell it in parts. Without him, you have a worn out or a non working machine sitting in your shed waiting for good parts.
There are always lots of worn out parts available because no one wants them, it is no use buying what you already have.
Dave

J Tiers
04-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Fair enough.....

As for doing things with no reward...... sometimes that is appropriate, sometimes it is just letting some SOB of a BMW driver walk on you, and in those cases the best answer is to respect them as much as they respect you...... Which generally means a dose of "tough love"..... I cut the BMW crowd (who don't always have the BMW) no slack whatever, they are too used to getting their own way, usually. (there are exceptions.....)

Some folks are just $hits and nothing can be done for them..... I generally think of them as pathological cases........ they have one thing in common with the truly insane.... you cannot embarrass them... they just don't "get it" that they are being asses.