Turning Pro: Do I Have the Juice?

[Kibby]

So many questions unanswered. So many variables. So many answers to questions yet to be asked. This is my quandry.

I have been tossing around the idea of going pro as a gunsmith. Formal training? Nope. None. I do however have a lifetime of experience as a machinist, welder, industrial mechanic, and fabricator. I've also done hobby 'smithing for a few years now, and have turned out some splendid reworks. Oh, and did I mention I'm also a custom knifemaker? I've got the skills, but not the hardcore experience. I have silver-soldered hundreds of guards on hundreds of knives, but will I choke when the time comes for me to shorten a barrel on an old single-action Ruger, and resolder the front sight back on? How do I take the plunge?

The only tangible obstacle that I am facing right now would be to get my FFL. The reason being that my shop is in my garage, and the town zones my lot as "rural residential". Not quite sure how that is defined, but anything residential sounds to me like they wouldn't allow me to run a business out of my house. I am on a first name basis with the police chief, so gaining his seal of approval would be no problem. Its just that the BATF requires that I have a legal and approved place of business, and there is the rub.

I am so confident with so many different gunsmithing procedures. Rechambering, bluing, shortening barrels, recrowning, bedding, triggers, refinishing, and a slew of other coatings, but for everything I know it seems there are ten things I don't know. Gunsmithing is a big wide world, and I can see why many folks specialize.

I guess I am just venting... whining... waffeling. Call it whatever, but I don't want to take the plunge unless I am guaranteed my feet at least get wet, you know?

I welcome your thoughts, my friends. :)

[paul j smeltzer]

I think I would get a home business licence, if you town/city issues them. That way you would have a legitimate business for the purposes of getting an FFL.

Paul J

[Toolguy]

The biggest obstacle is not the ATF, the city or any organization. It is turning a profit and making enough to live on. An old (but true) saying is "The best way to make a small fortune gunsmithing is to start with a large one." With your skills, doing the work is not the hardest part. It's getting enough work and getting paid well to do it. If your burning desire in life is to be a gunsmith, then jump in with both feet and don't look back. If not, then you can make a lot better money at any number of other avenues.

[J. Randall]

If you are in good shape in the finance dept. and have the time to build a reputation, I would say go for it. Sounds like you have the skills, just need to try it out to know for sure. Another old joke, How are a gunsmith and a large pizza different? Answer, A large pizza can feed a family of four.
James

[shotgunsmith]

I am a professional GS but I still have my "other" job. I have almost always had 2 jobs but now my part-time job is one that I love. My shop is at home and I work some late nights. Make some hunting/shooting/jeeping money. Choose the jobs I want and pass on some of the BS work. Because I don't count on Smithing to pay the mortgage there is no presure and the fun stays in it.
Good luck brother

[loose nut]

Did you hear the one about the rich gunsmith.....:D :D :D

[rws]

I had to battle zoning too, to get a business license. There is an exception to the building codes that can get you by. It's called "Special Use" or something like that, as stated in the 2003 UBC. What it says is you can use up to 10% of the square footage of your house for a business, and not have to comply with fire wall separations and the like. You may have to be creative to comply with the 10%, but you can always say a certain part of your shop is perwsonal use, and the rest is business use.

The FFL is not a problem.

[argon99]

I don't want to rain on your parade but I think I should share this with you. There was a company a few years back that I used to use to plate my guns. I needed a 1911 hard chromed and gave them a call. They will not do guns any more. Some bottom feeder had his pistol plated from them. He goes to the range and using handloads blows up his gun. He then sues the plater saying that the plating in the barrel blew up his gun. The judge couldn't care less that the thickness of the plate was measured in microns or that the guy used handloads he ruled against the plating company. That's the way it is these days. If you go to court over anything related to guns you will lose because all the judges come from liberal academia. Now with that said one of my best friends is a pistol smith and builds and repairs race guns and limited class guns. He only works on peoples guns that he knows are not going to sue him because they are friends. He doesn't take work over the phone or from word of mouth. It has to be someone he knows. So that that into account before you make your decision.

I wish you luck no matter your choice.

[shotgunsmith]

argon99 is right. You will need insurance. Be smart about the work you accept. Be very cautious when dealing with guns that have been customized by others. Due a complete function and saftey test on every gun before you do any work and document your findings. This includes checking H.S. and determing that the chambering matches the designation on the gun. EX1: customer brings in a sporterized Mauser and wants a fresh recoil pad You fit a new pad and return it. He goes home and loads it with 8x57mauser ammo and the gun blows up. You didn't know the gun was rechambered for 8mm-06 and neither did the owner. You are named in the lawsuit. EX2: ANy time I get a mauser with a altered bolt handle or that has been rechambered for a magnum round. I tag the weapon ?ing the integrity of the bolts hardness or the abilty of the weapon to handle the presure the new chambering. That way when the gun blows up and I have to go to court I can pull out my records and say I told you so.

[Kibby]

I wouldn't even begin without insurance and at least an LLC.

As far as income, I do have a FT job, and a military retirement. I'm thinking of retiring for good in 8 years (I'll be 60), but I'd like a retirement job, you know, you keep me busy. Nothing worse than just sitting down and waiting to die.

I'm in tight with a gun shop here. There's no doubt the owner would send business to me. Of course, it helps if you spend significant $$ at his shop. ;)

[shotgunsmith]

Then whats the holdup. jump in. and good luck

[hockeysew]

So many questions unanswered. So many variables. So many answers to questions yet to be asked. This is my quandry.

I have been tossing around the idea of going pro as a gunsmith. Formal training? Nope. None. I do however have a lifetime of experience as a machinist, welder, industrial mechanic, and fabricator. I've also done hobby 'smithing for a few years now, and have turned out some splendid reworks. Oh, and did I mention I'm also a custom knifemaker? I've got the skills, but not the hardcore experience. I have silver-soldered hundreds of guards on hundreds of knives, but will I choke when the time comes for me to shorten a barrel on an old single-action Ruger, and resolder the front sight back on? How do I take the plunge?

The only tangible obstacle that I am facing right now would be to get my FFL. The reason being that my shop is in my garage, and the town zones my lot as "rural residential". Not quite sure how that is defined, but anything residential sounds to me like they wouldn't allow me to run a business out of my house. I am on a first name basis with the police chief, so gaining his seal of approval would be no problem. Its just that the BATF requires that I have a legal and approved place of business, and there is the rub.

I am so confident with so many different gunsmithing procedures. Rechambering, bluing, shortening barrels, recrowning, bedding, triggers, refinishing, and a slew of other coatings, but for everything I know it seems there are ten things I don't know. Gunsmithing is a big wide world, and I can see why many folks specialize.

I guess I am just venting... whining... waffeling. Call it whatever, but I don't want to take the plunge unless I am guaranteed my feet at least get wet, you know?

I welcome your thoughts, my friends. :)

Kibby-
I think we are in parrallel universes! I am in the exact same situation with a shop I have been working with for the last 3 years. I have a spookily similar background as well. I understand very well the "1 thing I know, 10 I dont" feeling.
I started out working gunshows with them as extra hands & eyes and it progressed into part time sales at the shop. I brought in a couple of items that I had reworked and they asked me if I had interest in 'Smithing for them.
I jumped at it, I can retire in another year and it plays out well so far.
A couple of things I can share with you:
1- Best to start by getting into an established gunshop. That way your customer base is coming to the shop and you are getting exposure.
2- Be straight with the shop owner of what the expectations are of both of you. Get it in writing, you dont need a contract but layout a plan.
3- Set realistic expectations with the shop as far as financials go. The shop I am with knows that I dont have a formal education in 'Smithing and no real proffesional experience in it. Therefore how can I justify a take of 75% of the ticket? We have a 50/50 agreement on labor with profit on parts going to the shop. If it is a job that requires machine work or Parkerizing I get 75% of the ticket (less parts) because the machines and park setup are in my home shop. (I converted my detached garage into 100% dedicated, securable shop space).
It seems to work out well so far, the shop has a 'Smith that is on premise that turns out a quality product at a fair cost and that is extra cash to them. I get the benefit of their shop, customer base and advertisement without the time investment and cost associated with.
4- Develop allies in the field. You cant possibly know everything about every firearm and it is really beneficial to have other 'Smiths that you can refer to and farm out work to that you cant do. Example: With the zoning I have (residential) I cant set up a blueing rig in my shop. I am lucky enough to have the Colorado School of Trades that I refer customers to.
5- Dont badmouth other shops/Smiths.
6- Get insurance.
7-Get an Accountant- dont fudge taxes no matter how bad it stings. BATF and IRS are bedfellows.
8- Get your own FFL. That is the only way you can stay legal if you need to take items home and work on them. I had no problem with my city as far as licensing. I was able to sit down with the Police Chief and chat with him when I needed his sign off on my application. I could have just dropped it off for a sig but I wanted to introduce myself and face to face the man. Afterall it is his city and I wanted him to know just what the business plan was. He was a little apprehensive at first but after explaining that I would be doing gunsmithing only and no sales of firearms were involved and that customers would not be coming to my house he really eased up. I think it helped that I noticed he was a Cobra jockey in Vietnam and chatted about that for a bit. He turned out to be a really good guy and I have done a little work for his agency.
9- Know when to walk away from a job.
10- Be honest with your customers.
11- Treat every firearm as it was your own. If you wont accept slipshod work, why should your customer?
12- Work within your skill set. There is a time to expand your skills, but not at the expense of a re-work.
13- Educate yourself at every opportunity.
14- Dont sell yourself short as far as what you charge.

I know that comes a day I am either going to have to go all in or go home.
Big step...............

[hockeysew]

Dupe........

[38_Cal]

If you don't want to go totally on your own right away and are having a hard time convincing a shop owner that he should offer gunsmithing services that you can do either at his place or yours, appeal to his better (financial) interests. Every time a customer brings in a job to be done, he has the opportunity to talk with sales staff and buy accessories, ammo, shooting supplies, etc. AND every time he picks up a repaired gun, the same opportunities present themselves to the store. You can also work out a deal where you can clean and check over used guns for the store...not necessarily a major cleaning, but enough to make them more presentable and easier to sell. You can, at the same time, possibly prevent problems for the store by catching used guns that they bought that are unsafe to fire without repairs, before they get put on display.

David

[Kibby]

Great advice. One thing about getting into another shop for a while: There aren't any around here. Well, there aren't any to speak of, just one-man shops, just like what I'd be. Good advice, though... except for me the whole idea of it is to be on my own, and free of someone else telling me what I can and can't do. I am not stubborn, stodgy, or hard to get along with, but a feller has to go his own way sometimes. ;)

[CLARKMAG]

I know how much money a number of people make.

The skills it takes to be a gunsmith and run a business would garner (3) times as much money is some field with less amateur pressure.

Same thing with photography, playing the guitar, painting pictures, making movies, etc.

I have never charged a dime for gunsmithing, but the mill and lathe I bought for amateur gunsmithing have been paid for sever times over by making aircraft electronics test fixtures.

I know a gunsmith who would be worth $100k as an engineer, but only makes $30k as a gunsmith.

What does it all mean?
Follow your dream and enjoy life, but you will not be driving a new Cadillac.

[oneeyedmac]

I've been through the zoning thing twice, the first time when I got my FFL and then when I moved. Check with the zoning board of the city, town, county and township your residence is in. If a "home Occupation" is OK then it's OK to run a gunsmithing business. I've found that the more rural the are the better time of it you'll have. The first time I got the FFL I was in a city of 30,000 people and the zoning people tried to stop me. The ATF was actually very helpful and patient while I worked it out with the zoning board. I had to read them their own regulations and eventually they wrote a letter to the effect the they would "permit" me to conduct business from my home. The second time I was (and am) out in the middle of the countyr and the zoning board actually amde me attend a hearing and answer questions. After the hearing every member of the board asked for my card and one member placed an order for a magazine.

I customize rifles, either Remington 700's, custom clones of Remington 700's and Savage rifles. I build AR15's for myself and my family and if someone seeks me out to buy a pistol I'll get it for them but I won't do anything more to a pistol than mount a laser grip. I've gotten very good at what I do and I don't try to do anything else.

One thing you need to consider, errors in keeping records for the ATF can be a felony. Be attentive, cross your t's and dot your i's. I've found the ATF to be helpful and I'm always respectful and forthcoming, so far so good with them.

I really enjoy making these rifles shoot well. I love working with people to help build their dream rifle. I built a rifle for a heart surgeon in his 50's. He had the money to buy whatever gun he wanted and he had me build him one; I really felt privledged and humbled. I delivered to his (very nice) home and when I opened the case he lit up and said he'd been dreaming about this rifle since high school and he loves it. What I do is very rewarding, give it a go if you can.

[Kibby]

One thing you need to consider, errors in keeping records for the ATF can be a felony. Be attentive, cross your t's and dot your i's. I've found the ATF to be helpful and I'm always respectful and forthcoming, so far so good with them.

No worries. I have a minor in accounting. I am meticulous to a fault.

I also like what you said about doing what you are good at. I don't think I will have a specialty at first, and just take in some repairs and refurbs. This is not going to be a business that I have to do to make money, rather a business that I will do to stay in the swing of things. As long as I stay busy with work, I'll be happy, since it won't be a necessary income stream, but rather a hobby that pays well.

[rockmup]

No worries. I have a minor in accounting. I am meticulous to a fault.

I also like what you said about doing what you are good at. I don't think I will have a specialty at first, and just take in some repairs and refurbs. This is not going to be a business that I have to do to make money, rather a business that I will do to stay in the swing of things. As long as I stay busy with work, I'll be happy, since it won't be a necessary income stream, but rather a hobby that pays well.

Its more than just being meticulous. You need to know the rules as they pertain to you. Do not trust that the BATFE will at all.

I just had an agent thats been working for them for 10yrs tell me that multiple receiver transfers must have a multiple pistol form filed.
I told him he was wrong. That they were receivers not pistols, his answer was "But they could be!"
We agreed to disagree and he was to check on it and call me back with a clarification. Guess what he said when he called. I was right.

There was another equally ridiculous issue with the same guy but you get the point


Good luck

[Southron129]

A friend of mine that had a small gun shop in a small town would stay open 24 hours before the first day of deer season every year..

I usually helped him and ran into some interesting "characters." A lady deer hunter came in early in the afternoon and told me that she had a brand new Remington Bolt action Rifle and purchased a box of .308 Winchester.

She asked me something about the rifle-I told I needed to see it, so she went out to her truck and brought the rifle back in and handed it to me.

I noticed that the caliber was .243 !!!!!

I explained her that it would not be a good idea to shoot a .308 round in her .243-she hadn't even realized that there was a difference!!!!

So, I traded her a box of .243 for that box of .308. Don't know if she ever got a deer or not, but at least she wouldn't get hurt trying to shoot that rifle with the wrong ammo.

Like I say-you run into some interesting characters in a gun shop.