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Too_Many_Tools
04-24-2010, 07:55 PM
From several comments I would like to start a company "loyalty" discussion.

I think some of us have stories that could prove useful to others.

TMT

Black_Moons
04-24-2010, 08:22 PM
For reasons of getting me a IH mill for cheaper then I could even buy one in the USA (Before shiping, And im pertty sure the shiping I was charged was less then what is typicaly charged for this mill in the USA shiped to a USA address), and then even supporting me further with it with replacement parts no hastle, Im loyal to
https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.com/
I just wish they had more stuff I could buy off them. Great site for any canadian looking for a square collumn mill to buy! Especialy the LARGEST IH size with 30x12x19" XYZ travel. Only place I know that sells em in canada.

Glacern: for supporting this forum for all those years, for making an awsome cheap 4" mill vise after I mentioned to them there was demand due to kurt 4" being WAY overpriced and most clones being poor quality, for never having anyone have anything negative to say about them, and for providing the cool videos and other services.

And I strike out against KBCtools! for constantly having things not match the catalog, even the monthly sales catalog pictures don't match the items and neither do the discriptions. Thier import machines all seem overpriced and lower then harbor freight quality. They never have more then 1/2 my order in stock when I order in person, and often get my order wrong.
They also charge all canadians 30% then americans on all items, even though we have a 1:1 exchange ratio these days, even on small light items that cost $1000+ so its not shiping related. Pertty much cheaper just to buy from enco/etc and pay shiping then it is to buy localy from them.
And they often swap items in the catalog for lower quality items. you'll see a picture of one made half of metal and recive one made 90% outta plastic and not even looking alike with diffrent features that are so poorly implimented they harm the function of the product. Real businesses make a new part number and picture when they CHANGE THE ITEM.

oldtiffie
04-24-2010, 08:52 PM
From several comments I would like to start a company "loyalty" discussion.

I think some of us have stories that could prove useful to others.

TMT

Some clarification is required.

Is it/this "company loyalty" as in?:
- company as an employer;
- company as supplier;
- loyalty from an employee to an employer/Company;
- loyalty as a party to a contact or supply agreement or warranty?
- loyalty as in continuing to manufacture "in country" instead of "contracting out" to "over-seas" or Mexico etc.?

etc.

gnm109
04-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Oh, I thought company loyalty was when I got laid off 3 months short of ten years when my retirement would have vested. Now that's some loyalty.

Or do you mean buying from the same company even after they outsource to Mexico, China and Bangladesh and handle their warranty service with people who do not speak English? That's another type of loyalty with which I am familiar.

Or staying at a company even though the management treats you like an office fixture and never, ever even notices you.

Hmmm, company loyalty. That's a strange concept.

Liger Zero
04-24-2010, 09:12 PM
I think he means loyalty to an employer.

For example... There is a molding company that I started at right out of school. My first real job. They taught me what I know, and despite the behavior of certain people there... I consider the owner a decent person and I keep tabs on what his company and his ventures are up to.

Will I ever work there again? No. Will I ever say anything bad about his company. Not a word.

Only company I have ever worked at that I am unwilling to speak ill of. :)


Now... Since then it's been one lie, one temp-contract, one job-search after another. No other company out there has shown me a lick of loyalty... they want me to come in, muck **** out of the stable for 90 days and then move on.

They all tell the same lies, make the same promises, and play the same games. You want my loyalty, give me a job give me a decent wage and give me a future.

THEN we'll discuss "loyalty." When I'm working to my full potential in a technical position, not mucking **** out of a restroom for $8 an hour while listening to you promise me training raises and promotions after my "conversion" from temp-status... which we both know will never happen. :rolleyes:


This is why I've started my own business, I'm tired of the games. Got a future to think of, MY future. :)

J Tiers
04-24-2010, 11:35 PM
Loud Technologies bought my employer, St Louis Music, adding the Ampeg and Crate brands to Mackie and EAW (music equipment).

The then CEO, Jaimie Engen, came to see us, and off the record (he demanded that nobody record the meeting, which never occurred to me, at least) told us how they wanted the going concern, and valued the people at SLM.

Within 6 months, the layoffs started. Of course. He was a CEO, and his mouth was moving, so he was telling flat out lies in the meeting.

First the service department, in favor of Loud's minimum wage know-nothings, and a plan to ship everything to Shanghai for repairs and then back here. (that never worked, by the way, and they tried hard to get everyone in service to come back, but got told where to stick it and what to do then... one guy came back, I think)

After a while they had pared it down to engineering, which was then hastily moved into crummy quarters at the old HQ building.

Within 4 months of that move, they decided that nobody was needed at all, and closed the facility other than the warehouse, which they cut back.

Subsequently they sold the SLM name and some of the product lines to US Band and Orchestra, who moved into the old HQ and still operate part of the old St Louis Music in that location, under the name St Louis Music....

Loud did virtually the same thing to EAW. All the products are now made in Vietnam, Korea, or china.

Incidentally, one fine day a year later Jamie Engen was also told to pack up and get the H### out of there, and his henchmen were axed shortly after that.

Loyalty? I had it for the prior owner, Gene Kornblum... A quality guy, who even though he sold, made taking care of his employees a part of the deal.

For Loud? Not a bit..... I have a certain loyalty to the brands I worked on, and I still support our older equipment to some extent, but I don't much care if Loud goes as broke as their various bad decisions should have made them already.

tyrone shewlaces
04-25-2010, 12:49 AM
hehe. Their first mistake was to dream up the lousy company name of "Loud Technologies". It was probably toe cocaine talking.

Well my list of employment stories pretty much follows the same pattern. Get hired at a company I feel reasonably happy about and a cooperative atmosphere, then hear within a few months that it was sold to an investment group. Six times in a row, no kidding.

The company hums along for a couple months as if nothing much is supposed to change, then the first stupid corporate policy change is handed down - usually something like "no more radios in the plant" or "all lunches must now be from 12:00 to 12:25 to allow 5 minutes for walking to the lunch room" or whatever. It snowballs from there and before you know it nobody knows what's going on or what to do anymore and scrap parts begin to flow back in the door, morale is in the $hitter, etc. I'm usually among the first couple folks to move on. It's like all these jokers go to the same budget management seminar or something.

I think this is the trend more often than not anymore. How can you even think about loyalty when you're always working for the latest Johnny-come-lately. I think loyalty has at least something to do with long-term goals and I don't think those exist anymore.

You can still be loyal to your own ideals, but it's a short trip to enemy territory today.

nheng
04-25-2010, 12:51 AM
JT, Not much to add to your story, I'd have to simply change the names, right down to the really nice guy original owner, founder (and personal friend) who had to sell for good reasons at the time. ...
Den

fasto
04-25-2010, 12:28 PM
Although I know this is supposed to be a company bashing thread, would you like a counter example?

gnm109
04-25-2010, 12:30 PM
Although I know this is supposed to be a company bashing thread, would you like a counter example?


Why, ahh, yes. It would be refreshing to hear about a company that cares about its employees and treats each of them fairly and with respect. I've yet to hear such a story but I certainly would. :)

J Tiers
04-25-2010, 12:38 PM
hey, we were good with Gene Kornblum..... while decisions were not always the best, they were honest, and he tried to do his best. Anyone in the company, if they had a good reason, could talk to him. Several did, and appropriate things happened.

And when he DID let folks go for business reasons, he paid good severance..... Lots of companies pay "last check severance"..... i.e. "you are hereby fired and here is your last check for time up to now.".

Peter.
04-25-2010, 12:54 PM
WellI'm not in engineering but I am intensely loyal to the company I work for. It is a two-way street however, they give me the latitude I need to perform my duties and I in turn give them 100% commitment and results to show for it. They have supported me in times of personal difficulty and that means more to me than the pay packet. Can't bring myself to speak ill of them.

Can't say that they treat all the their employees the same but as I said - it IS a two-way street.

Liger Zero
04-25-2010, 02:08 PM
One of the sheetmetal companies I temped at as a "general labor" sort was on TV about two years ago bragging about this is a great place to work and how they were looking for skilled workers and they had a PREMIUM PAY PACKAGE and everything.

Which is interesting because I was working there when they ran the ad... I presented my laser operator credentials to them. The owner of the company laughed me out of the office telling me "once a temp always a temp."



I understand they are being investigated for tax fraud, claiming X number of hires for Y tax benefit. Too bad so sad.



Now, enough bashing we all know the pattern. Lets hear a story about a company that treats its workers well and bends over backwards to help them (within reason).

fasto
04-25-2010, 02:23 PM
OK, but it's my company, as in the one that I own, so perhaps I'm a bit biased?

Edited to say, I did as much as I could for my guys, and I would do so again.

For another example, search on "Aaron Feuerstein" and "Malden Mills" to see what bankers think of a company that provides for its employees...

danlb
04-25-2010, 03:39 PM
Fasto, that is going beyond the limits expected of any company.

I've worked for one place (a nationwide telephone company) for 25 years. I was hired into the 'family' when I was 17 years old and was flatly told that they expected me to retire at 65. The pension plan was bullet proof and designed to reward employee loyalty.

They promoted from within and provided training to build skills that they needed. Their stated goal was to provide the best possible service at the lowest possible cost. When they drum that message into every worker and manager, they mean it.

At some point the MBAs took over. They started bringing in management from other companies. The profit became more important than the customers. They started to talk in terms of numbers of 'resources', 'bodies' and 'headcount' instead of numbers of people. They looked for ways to skirt the regulations that allowed them to maintain a monopoly that was designed to work for the public benefit.


By the time I retired, everything had changed. The average new hire was expected to be there short term. As much as possible was outsourced. The pension fund had been raided. It was converted to 401Ks and the excess was put back into the general fund. Older workers were often encouraged to retire early.

In short, it was no longer a family. In more than one meeting the phrase "It's a business, not a family" was used when an unpopular edict was announced.

Since I "retired" I've worked for a dozen different places as a consultant and a temp. My choice. Some were start-ups, others fortune 500. In many of them I found valid reasons to be loyal to the PEOPLE that I worked with, but not to the company.

The companies are only there to make money. The people are the ones who care.

Dan

Too_Many_Tools
04-25-2010, 04:47 PM
Now, enough bashing we all know the pattern. Lets hear a story about a company that treats its workers well and bends over backwards to help them (within reason).


Yes and no..

Those of us who have been around know the pattern.

There are many young and talented young employees coming along who need to know the score.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
04-25-2010, 04:49 PM
Although I know this is supposed to be a company bashing thread, would you like a counter example?

Yes...I would like to hear both the good and the bad.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
04-25-2010, 04:54 PM
I think he means loyalty to an employer.



I was thinking about the "loyalty" that an employer shows or does not show to an employee.

It think there are lessons to be learned discussing the subject for both employer and employee who visit here.

The current severe economic recession means that employers have the upper hand...and when the economic conditions improve..and they will...employers who have abused their employees will see them leave in droves.

It is good business to keep good employees whatever the economic conditions are...and treating them fairly is the first step.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
04-25-2010, 04:57 PM
For reasons of getting me a IH mill for cheaper then I could even buy one in the USA (Before shiping, And im pertty sure the shiping I was charged was less then what is typicaly charged for this mill in the USA shiped to a USA address), and then even supporting me further with it with replacement parts no hastle, Im loyal to
https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.com/
I just wish they had more stuff I could buy off them. Great site for any canadian looking for a square collumn mill to buy! Especialy the LARGEST IH size with 30x12x19" XYZ travel. Only place I know that sells em in canada.

Glacern: for supporting this forum for all those years, for making an awsome cheap 4" mill vise after I mentioned to them there was demand due to kurt 4" being WAY overpriced and most clones being poor quality, for never having anyone have anything negative to say about them, and for providing the cool videos and other services.

And I strike out against KBCtools! for constantly having things not match the catalog, even the monthly sales catalog pictures don't match the items and neither do the discriptions. Thier import machines all seem overpriced and lower then harbor freight quality. They never have more then 1/2 my order in stock when I order in person, and often get my order wrong.
They also charge all canadians 30% then americans on all items, even though we have a 1:1 exchange ratio these days, even on small light items that cost $1000+ so its not shiping related. Pertty much cheaper just to buy from enco/etc and pay shiping then it is to buy localy from them.
And they often swap items in the catalog for lower quality items. you'll see a picture of one made half of metal and recive one made 90% outta plastic and not even looking alike with diffrent features that are so poorly implimented they harm the function of the product. Real businesses make a new part number and picture when they CHANGE THE ITEM.

Thanks for posting this info.

I think that this subject deserves discussion time also..would you mind starting a discussion thread on this subject so we can give it the attention that it deserves?

Thanks

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
04-25-2010, 05:10 PM
One issue that directly affects the HSM with the more volatile job market resulting from the reduction of company loyality to the employee is that the employee will be changing companies more often, willingly or not.

That means that you will be moving more often...and along with you will be your equipment, every nut and bolt.

This is a very big change.

A basic change in how the average HSM has run his private shop where one could assume that you could buy larger, heavier machines and only move them once to your shop. Where in the past you could assume that if you built a shop building that you would use it for years. And if you moved that you would move locally to similar accomondations instead of half way across the country into a housing market that gives you half the house footage that you had.

Company "loyalty" has a direct impact as to what your HSM shop will be and how you will manage it.

TMT

Pete F
04-25-2010, 05:16 PM
I have generally always been extremely loyal to the companies I've worked for, because when that loyalty starts feeling undeserved, I start heading for the door. On my terms, though, which can sometimes take a while, but while I'm there, they will get my best.

And yes, I do feel that my current employer is deserving of that loyalty. I feel very fortunate for that, because in the current environment in my location, the door seems very far away.

-Pete

spope14
04-25-2010, 05:29 PM
I have worked for the same school district for 22 years, expect to make 25, the magic number for a retirement package. Our district has proven loyal to good employees.

I have worked part time for the same local shop since 1995. When they have hard times, I make the choice not to work there before perhaps they choose this for me, for they hire a great many students of mine. I am pretty sure though, if I wanted to work part time there, I would be allowed. It is a choice of helping them out as much as they help me out.

I have dealt with MSC since 1990. They still treat me and the school well, and my steel supplier has been the same since 1990 as well.

I find too many little local/regional businesses (retail and supplies) that drop me like a bad penny when things are good, forget my business. It may not be much, but it is still business. Then things get bad, they want to make nice. I do of course, it is what you do being a citizen in town.