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cuemaker
05-07-2010, 08:19 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/06/news/international/china_america.fortune/index.htm


Article essentially says that Chinese companies are opening up factories here as opposed to China..Reasons vary from cost of electricity, reliability of power grid, land costs and closer to American clients to meet their needs..

J Tiers
05-07-2010, 08:29 AM
And the high cost of shipping, especially when oil breaks the $200 barrier, soon.

mochinist
05-07-2010, 08:32 AM
Reshoring was the big buzz word when I was at Westec a few weeks ago

Evan
05-07-2010, 09:40 AM
A big share of it is coming to Canada. The Chinese just bought out ConocoPhillips' share of Syncrude for 4.5 billion dollars.

Dr Stan
05-07-2010, 09:45 AM
Once the Chinese are forced to allow their currency to float on the world market their favorable exchange rate will disappear. Thus another reason to move Chinese production to North America.

Carld
05-07-2010, 11:37 AM
There was an article in the local Communist Journal aka Courier-Journal news paper about China buying businesses and opening businesses in the USA to overcome costs. They are also still trying to get companies to move the China. The article said they want to become a world leader in manufacturing and are trying to build businesses in many countries as well as China.

I guess the Chinese workers are starting to want more money and the costs of manufacturing and transportation are starting to eat up their profits.

The manufacturing may come back to the USA but it will still be owned by the Chinese. The Chinese are not going to let the companies leave their country without a fight and they will probably win because they have the MONEY and no one else does.

dr pepper
05-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Well the fat cats may be chinese, but at least us the oily rags will be able to get work.

Ries
05-07-2010, 12:12 PM
The chinese have been buying and building factories here for a few years now- usually either stuff that needs to be just in time, things that are unique to the US market and dont sell in China, or things that are big and heavy to ship.

There are several chinese auto parts makers that have had US factories for up to 5 years now- the stuff needs to be made and delivered daily, and a 5 month lead time just wont do it.
And while the Chinese have passed us in car sales, we are still one of the 2 or 3 largest manufacturing countries for automobiles.

Wanxiang, the largest driveline company in the world, and its US subsidiary, Neapco, bought Ford's driveline division, 3 or 4 years ago, and was supposed to build a brand new factory in Michigan- dont know if they ever did, though.
They have quite a bit of US production and employees- something like a dozen different plants- including Nebraska-
http://journalstar.com/business/local/article_47e6889e-2888-11df-a7bf-001cc4c002e0.html

Haier, which is a huge chinese appliance company, has a factory here- they make things like special wine refridgerators- the Chinese arent big on wine.

But an interesting development is the fact that this year, Wham-O moved 50% of its Frisbee manufacturing back to the USA.
NOT a chinese company, but a US company, bringing back simple, relatively low tech injection molding and foam noodle extruding to the USA. On the Daily Show, they did a humorous bit on this, in which they interviewed Wham-O execs who said the Chinese were getting to be more expensive than US costs.
http://plasticsnews.com/headlines2.html?id=17815

Inflation has been pretty serious in China for some years now- decent condos in Bejing sell for a quarter million dollars, wages have been steadily creeping up, real estate prices are on the upswing, and the demands of workers is for better conditions, shorter hours, better pay- the same as everybody else.
Now they have TV, cellphones, the internet- they know how the rest of the world lives, and they want some.
Plus, the chinese government has been making a big push for High Tech manufacturing- there are government grants, tax breaks, and other legal and financial encouragements to move out of the plastic action figure and cigarette lighter businesses, and into things like autos, computers, wind generators, and the like.

The chinese people want to be middle class. And all the evidence points to slow, but steady, progress in that direction.

Tony Ennis
05-07-2010, 12:17 PM
I suppose once the guy running the electric plant, the people feeding the workers, and the railroads bringing the steel saw how fat the factory owners were getting they raised their prices to get a piece of it.

Machinist-Guide
05-07-2010, 12:35 PM
I remember Japan going through the same thing I remember as a young man machinist Tools from Japan were dirt cheep compared to U.S.A products now they are priced about the same, if not more.
I believe we will see China's tools prices gradually creep up to U.S prices just like Japan did.

smalltime
05-07-2010, 05:16 PM
And the high cost of shipping, especially when oil breaks the $200 barrier, soon.

$200.00?:confused:

Not anytime soon in my book. $75.35 today.

Kibby
05-07-2010, 05:49 PM
I remember Japan going through the same thing I remember as a young man machinist Tools from Japan were dirt cheep compared to U.S.A products now they are priced about the same, if not more.
I believe we will see China's tools prices gradually creep up to U.S prices just like Japan did.

I'm glad to see someone notice this as well. I remember when Mitutoyo hit the US market, and so many of us turned our noses up at their stuff. Soon we discovered that Mitutoyo was pretty decent gear, and the prices started creeping up there as demand rose. Resting on their laurels, Starrett and Brown and Sharp had to scramble to innovate and modernize just to stay competitive.

My prediction is this. Like Japan, China will set up shop on US soil, and for about 20 years they'll be success. Perhaps they will even gain the stigma of quality the Japanese have established (I doubt it). Then they'll become americanized, and the life will be greedily sucked out of them as well, falling to all the trappings of manufacturing in USA. Soon, Chinese products will be usurped by another emerging nation, and we'll be right here bitching about them, lol.

After all this happens, we'll be writing in forums about the crappy Uganda-made lathes flooding the US. :eek:

sansbury
05-07-2010, 05:52 PM
I used to have a couple of programmers in India, 2004-2007, at that time they were running 25% of the cost of a US-based person. Come 2007 and contract renewal, wages for a well-skilled person were climbing up to 60% or more of a US salary. At that point we decided to bite the bullet and bring everything back here. The coordination expense and cultural issues are such that anything much over 40% starts sucking wind.

This is why every time I hear about how China and India are graduating millions of engineers a year, I laugh. The top schools like Shanghai Jiao Tong or the IITs are arguably world-class, but the quality starts to fall off a cliff pretty fast after that. Many "computer science" graduates in India don't see a computer until their last year of school or first job--they are too expensive for all but the upper crust. On the flip side, the average college student in those countries has worked almost unbelievably hard to get even to the middle rungs of the system, as the competition for limited spaces is so intense. I have no doubt the gap between us and them will continue to close.

clutch
05-07-2010, 07:29 PM
I have always held on to the idea that when China's standard of living rises enough ours will stop sliding.

Welcome to the first world China.

Clutch

squirrel
05-07-2010, 07:42 PM
My prediction is this. Like Japan, China will set up shop on US soil, and for about 20 years they'll be success. Perhaps they will even gain the stigma of quality the Japanese have established (I doubt it).
:eek:
You are behind the times, they have already delivered excellent product. We import a digital indicator for one of our products and the low cost and extremely high quality scared me. It did take samples from several companies but the one we settled on is extremely good.

Paul Alciatore
05-07-2010, 08:41 PM
$200.00?:confused:

Not anytime soon in my book. $75.35 today.

Oh yea? Just wait until Obama passes more regulations on the oil business (Gulf spill) and Cap and Trade. $200 will be cheap.

lazlo
05-07-2010, 09:02 PM
Oh yea? Just wait until Obama passes more regulations on the oil business (Gulf spill) and Cap and Trade. $200 will be cheap.

Didn't you make a comment last week about keeping politics off the forum? :rolleyes:


You are behind the times, they have already delivered excellent product. We import a digital indicator for one of our products and the low cost and extremely high quality scared me.

One product does not make a trend. Most of Apple's products are made in China, and they're excellent quality as well, but that's because Apple designed, built and maintains the factory. But the vast majority of the Chinese hand tools I get from Enco, MSC, KBC Tools et al are the same quality as the Chinese tools I bought 10 years ago. And a quick glance at any Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Sears, or Home Depot shows the mass-market machine tools haven't gotten any better either. In fact, a lot of them are getting worse.

You reap what you sow. You're not going to get quality products from slave labor working in sweat shops. That's why the quality of the products coming from Taiwan is much higher than mainland China, even though they're the brothers and sisters of the Chinese laborers. Taiwan is a first-world country. They're educated, have health care and safety standards, are paid decent wages, and work as a career, not a 3-year stint like the peasant labor used in most of the Communist factories.

spope14
05-07-2010, 09:58 PM
[This is why every time I hear about how China and India are graduating millions of engineers a year, I laugh. The top schools like Shanghai Jiao Tong or the IITs are arguably world-class, but the quality starts to fall off a cliff pretty fast after that. Many "computer science" graduates in India don't see a computer until their last year of school or first job--they are too expensive for all but the upper crust. On the flip side, the average college student in those countries has worked almost unbelievably hard to get even to the middle rungs of the system, as the competition for limited spaces is so intense. I have no doubt the gap between us and them will continue to close.[/QUOTE]

India though, has been building the schools to sustain engineering, so they are looking to quality. CBS did a report on this a few months back. Thye have a private/public partnership that seems to be working and growing this field as well as the increase in manufacturing as well, They will be the "next China" in ten years. We in the US could do the same, we have the infrastructure, but profits over long term goal seem to still be the word all around.

lazlo
05-07-2010, 10:13 PM
This is why every time I hear about how China and India are graduating millions of engineers a year, I laugh. The top schools like Shanghai Jiao Tong or the IITs are arguably world-class, but the quality starts to fall off a cliff pretty fast after that.

Very true. We have a lousy grade school system, but the Lion's Share of the best colleges in the world. China's top-ranked university, Nanjing, is ranked around 250th in the world:

http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2009.jsp

Which is why the cream of the Peking/Nanjing/IIT graduates come to the 'States for graduate school, and usually stay here.

By the way, just about every major technology corporation has outsourced to India (including my current and former employers). Yet, as far as I know, there's not been a single successful project completed in Banglore from any of the Indian satellite sites/companies, hardware or software. I've been involved in several failed attempts at out-sourcing projects to Banglore, and it's always been a disaster.

oldtiffie
05-07-2010, 10:15 PM
You might be surprised at just how much of other countries businesses and infrastructure - and finance - that foreign countries and banks and sovereign funds own or control in the USA - here in OZ too.

As "transport/shipping" was mentioned:
(2006):
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-02-22-ports-flap_x.htm

and:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=usa+port+ownership&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=usa+port+ownership&gs_rfai=&fp=11d4e774e7976426

There's lots more to be found on the web.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_funds

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=sovereign+funds&fulltext=Search

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_reserves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance

If - as some say - that "money talks" (and others listen?) that China has a loud voice - and people listen.

There are many countries with manufacturing and financial (political?) interests in the USA - just as the USA has (had?) in other countries.

No differences really - its just who is on the thick end (has control) of the stick and who is on thin end (being controlled).

The USA and the UK and Europe have been on the thick end for many years but the world - as always - is in a state of flux and things change.

I guess that peoples attitude depends in large measure as to which end of the stick they perceive themselves (and others) to be (on).

Its the "Golden Rule" - as it always was:
"Them that's got the gold makes the rules".

Its nothing new here in OZ and by and large over time it hasn't always been good but it hasn't always (and isn't) too bad.

Get used to it.

Kibby
05-08-2010, 06:02 AM
You are behind the times, they have already delivered excellent product. We import a digital indicator for one of our products and the low cost and extremely high quality scared me. It did take samples from several companies but the one we settled on is extremely good.

I'm not a professor of world economics. If you reread my post, I was trying to make the statment about how we perceive the quality of Chinese goods. I can remember when I was a kid - the phrase, "Made in Japan" had a much different meaning back then... just the way "Made in China" has now.

Doc Nickel
05-08-2010, 06:48 AM
I can remember when I was a kid - the phrase, "Made in Japan" had a much different meaning back then... just the way "Made in China" has now.

-Ditto. I'm not that old, but I knew a lot of older fellows through, naturally, my parents and people at work. And yeah, a lot of them still held the idea that the term "made in Japan" was disparaging, just as we feel today when somebody says "Harbor Freight".

And, being the young and impressionable type, I believed it 'til I started noticing all the electronics- mainly, at the time- coming from Japan. Then, as most of us here, when I started getting serious about machining, I found that Japanese measuring tools were some of the best available.

We had levelled much of Japan's infrastructure during WW2, yet within 60 years, they not only rebuilt to better than before, but went from making cheap trinket-level crap to some of the best technology on the planet.

The Chinese, as has been mentioned here before, can make high-quality product. They do it all the time- as noted above, Apple has most of their hardware built in China. Sure, Apple reps built the factory and oversee it, but it's not like they're compelling savages to pull levers and push rocks around. The technicians are still Chinese, and highly skilled.

We- as in you and I Joe Consumer- however have the greatest contact with the cheap stuff. Wal-Mart crap, Harbor-Freight crap, crap from the dress-up aisle at the auto parts store, crap in the Dollar Stores, and so on.

We have that contact because that's what sells to us. Look at Evan's post on that bogus wire- Evan shopped there because he thought he could get a deal on something that shouldn't have been able to be screwed up.

We all do it. We'll justify buying the $19 air die grinder by telling ourselves we can't afford the $200 US-brand tool, and we'll never use either one so long or so much to ever tell the difference.

Or, we'll just say hey, it's cheap enough, if it breaks down, I'll just buy another one. I can burn through ten before I break even!

Look how many of us bought those cheap carbide-grinder knockoffs. And then complained that companies like Baldor have had to start outsourcing production to China due to "high" prices and low sales.

Again, we justify it by telling ourselves that we can't afford a "real" Baldor, so it's not a lost sale- we wouldn't have bought it anyway, regardless.

But I digress.

In short, yes, the Chinese do make a lot of junk. But they do it because we buy it up by the boatload and then ask for more. The majority of us don't buy the top-end goods, or even the average midrange goods, because they cost about the same as the US-made or European-made product.

But that doesn't mean the Chinese can't make a good product or handle the technology.

Doc.

Evan
05-08-2010, 08:26 AM
An accquaintance of mine bought a Chinese made CNC lathe for his production shop about a year ago. I dropped in to see him recently and took a few pictures. He say it works well and is as good a quality as anything made in North America.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/germik1.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/germik2.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/germik4.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/germik5.jpg

oldtiffie
05-08-2010, 09:19 AM
I suggest that some review the videos in Ringer's thread here - they are Chinese lathe and mills - and seemed to be very well made and doing very well:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=545090&postcount=1

lazlo
05-08-2010, 09:25 AM
Ringer's lathe (Chin Hung) is from Taiwan, not China.

oldtiffie
05-08-2010, 09:53 AM
Here is the OP heading:

Jobs coming back to America from China?

and here is the text:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/06/news/international/china_america.fortune/index.htm

Article essentially says that Chinese companies are opening up factories here as opposed to China..Reasons vary from cost of electricity, reliability of power grid, land costs and closer to American clients to meet their needs..


I have no problems with China, which is well and truly part of the global economy and manufacturing (and financial) base manufacturing anywhere that is attractive and makes sense in a financial, efficiency (and political) sense.

Other countries and their businesses and manufacturers do it - so why not China - to and in the USA included.

They will be controlled and administered in/from China - just as Japanese companies are - and just as US and Japanese companies are here in OZ.

My guess is that a lot of the "manufacturing" will be very highly automated/"roboticised"? and that will include a lot of "machining".

The Chinese - just like the US and Japanese - are expert at wringing out huge concessions and grants etc. from the host country's national and local government and utilities. They are in large part indirectly subsidised by the host country government "picking winners and jobs" - at quite some considerable costs.

That is no different to local (to host country) corporations either!!!

There is no guarantee that anyone who rocks up looking for a job is going to get one at all - let alone doing what he'd like to do at wages conditions and benefits that he'd like to think he'd get.

But I must say that if the small number of folks that I know who work for those US, Chinese and Japanese companies seem pretty pleased and satisfied.

So, perhaps its not all bad news after all.

I'm still a bit pi$$ed off at some of the very negative responses in a thread here not so long ago that was about a Chinese offer to finance and build a rail-road in the US.

J Tiers
05-08-2010, 10:15 AM
There is a definite cultural reason for some things happening as they do with chinese and asian countries (mostly other than Japan).

I have met, talked to, and worked with a number of middle eastern, chinese, and Indian engineers. Most of the chinese were actually in china. They vary, but there has been a definite tendency for them all to be "hands-off", mathematical types, or software engineers.

The distinction between "white collar" and "manual labor" jobs is often quite strong. Some of these folks have nearly literally needed to be shown which end of the screwdriver to use.... They perhaps could design an optimum screwdriver, and analyze the stresses in all parts of it, but as for using it, that was a different matter.

One needs BOTH skills to be maximally effective in a very large number of practical engineering positions, and the smaller the company the more important that is. Large corporations use numbers of "theory only" engineers, but even there, someone translates those theories into good products, handling the details that make a product good.

Not all of them need to be engineers, but they need to be technically competent over a range of skills

This is a problem that is solved primarily by time....



I'm still a bit pi$$ed off at some of the very negative responses in a thread here not so long ago that was about a Chinese offer to finance and build a rail-road in the US.

if it is what I recall, it seemed rather 'colonial" in nature....... that's probably what made the responses what they were.

There are social, and strategic, reasons for some things being done by in-shore companies..... unless the government of the nation in question is willing to ignore laws entirely and treat everything on their soil as theirs.

Ries
05-08-2010, 02:04 PM
The reason Wanxiang is the largest driveline company in the world is because the owner and founder has exactly the combination of skills you describe.
He was originally a blacksmith, and then ran a bicycle repair shop in the 1960's. He is the tenth richest guy in China today. He worked with his hands, then built the business up to be a manufacturing business- in that respect, he is very similar to William Petersen, who invented Vise Grips, or John Deere- both were blacksmiths who became businessmen..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Guanqiu

Barty
05-08-2010, 02:21 PM
I have met, talked to, and worked with a number of middle eastern, chinese, and Indian engineers. Most of the chinese were actually in china. They vary, but there has been a definite tendency for them all to be "hands-off", mathematical types, or software engineers.

The distinction between "white collar" and "manual labor" jobs is often quite strong. Some of these folks have nearly literally needed to be shown which end of the screwdriver to use.... They perhaps could design an optimum screwdriver, and analyze the stresses in all parts of it, but as for using it, that was a different matter.


Having lived in Asia for over twenty years, I can confirm this. It is difficult to find staff that are "educated" to do or be involved with manual work. I call this the white shirt syndrome; as soon as they put on a nice white shirt they don't want to get out of the office.

Another interesting thing is my cigarette syndrome theory; it is very difficult to get one guy to do anything by himself. Here in Thailand people like to work in teams. If you do not control what is happening it doesn't take long before there is a large group of people doing a job that only normally requires one or two people. To try and figure out what everyone is doing that requires so many people I end up guessing that at least one of them is to make the coffee and another one is there to light the all of the others cigarettes.;)

About fifteen years about I meet a guy that was staying in the same apartment building as I was. He was over from Canada to commission a line of profile cutters that had been sold to a local company. The first day that I meet him he was very depressed. He had been in the country for a few weeks and had all of the equipment setup and running as it should but he couldn't get the staffing for the equipment to how he thought it should be. According to him, in North America one operator would take care of two or three machines at a time. On the job that he was commissioning here each machine had at least four people, one supervisor and three helpers. He was pulling his hair out trying to get the staffing numbers down, he was really concerned that his boss would be upset that so many people were operating their equipment.

Barty

lazlo
05-08-2010, 03:54 PM
The reason Wanxiang is the largest driveline company in the world is because the owner and founder has exactly the combination of skills you describe.
He was originally a blacksmith, and then ran a bicycle repair shop in the 1960's. He is the tenth richest guy in China today. He worked with his hands, then built the business up to be a manufacturing business

Ugh. We've discussed Guanqiu before.

The Chinese government likes to portray him as a peasant worker who worked his way up to riches. Yes, he was an obscure mechanic repairing rural farm tractors, and a enthusiastic Communist Party Member.

That is, until he was elected to the 9th, 13th and 14th CPC National People's Congresses. He went from a small business owner to a billionaire in the 13 years during that period.

Almost all of the Chinese billionaires are senior Communist Party Officials, and/or National People’s Congress delegates (China’s rubber-stamp parliament).
The first Chinese billionaire was “Red capitalist” Rong Yiren, the former China vice-president. His son "Larry" is also a billionaire -- the 6th wealthiest man in China.

The few billionaires who aren't party officials, are from eminent communist party families. Diana Chen, who founded the Pioneer Iron and Metals group (the largest ore company in China) is the granddaughter of Lu Dong, China’s metallurgy minister.

As Deng Xiaoping famously announced: “let some people get rich first".

Ries
05-08-2010, 04:16 PM
How, exactly, is this different from the over 200 millionaires we have elected to congress and the senate?

The fact is, smart, savvy guys make money. And, being smart and savvy, they align themselves with the government in power, whether they live in China or Arizona.

You could rearrange your sentence to read "the few billionaires that arent heavy contributors to the republican or democratic party, are from political families, like the Kennedy's, Bushes, and Gores".

This is the case in every country on earth, and does not in any way diminish the fact that unlike many of the billionaires here in the USA, Guanqui actually does know how to weld.
You think he is more phony and political than Robert Nardelli, Lloyd Blankfein, or any other MBA Billionaires who run american companies?

I am not defending the chinese government- in many ways, it is repressive, dictatorial, and murderous. But the fact that this guy built an empire, and THEN got "elected" to positions of power does not make him any less savvy as a businesman, any less successful in his US businesses- where, of course, the chinese government is of little help. You really think anybody in Nebraska, or Michigan, or Pennsylvania, actually cares that he is a member of the peoples congress?
They care that his businesses employ american citizens, pay taxes, and manufacture in the USA. Which, regardless of his politics, is a good thing.

lazlo
05-08-2010, 04:25 PM
How, exactly, is this different from the over 200 millionaires we have elected to congress and the senate?

The fact is, smart, savvy guys make money. And, being smart and savvy, they align themselves with the government in power, whether they live in China or Arizona.

It's not very different at all. Like most members of Congress, Guanqiu didn't become a billionaire because he was smart, or hard working, he became a billionaire by playing the corruption system, or being a devout Communist -- take your pick.

The tractor repair "company" Guanqiu founded wasn't a startup company. It was a Communist Commune: the "Ningwei Commune Farm Machinery Plant".

Ries
05-08-2010, 05:20 PM
I wasnt there, so I dont know.
But most of the info on the web leads one to believe that he actually did fix bicycles, himself.

Unlike somebody like, say, Cheney, who, as president of Halliburton, earned billions, and as vice president of the USA, probably helped give the impression that Halliburton was worthy of government contracts.

I still respect a guy who runs a company that actually makes things, regardless of how much government help he got, as opposed to who WE decide to help- Hedge Fund managers, AIG, Goldman Sachs, and so on- who dont make much of anything.

The history of big business and its intertwined relationships with politics is ubiquitous- it occurs in every country, in every time.

The entire history of Brown and Root, then Kellog Brown and Root, then Halliburton, and US politics, is incredible, and as corrupt and sad as anything in our history. And it bridges all political parties- GREEN always trumps Red or Blue.

Still and All- who is building factories in the USA?
Often times, its the Chinese, the Russians, the Germans, the Brazilians, and so on- and I am happy they are doing it, although of course it would be better if we were.
How much money do you or I actually invest in american manufacturing companies? Probably not much. I have a little of my IRA money in Illinois Tool Works, and Honda, and a few other companies that actually make stuff in america- but most americans still believe in the Casino mentality of money from nothing on Wall Street.
Factories get built by real people, with real money, and I applaud anybody who is doing it, commie or not.

Let us assume that you are right, and this guy is a complete commie stooge, a front man for the nefarious government, which pulls all his strings, and tells him what to do.
Does that mean we dont want the jobs he creates here in america, when he buys and builds factories here?
Does that mean we would rather he didnt manufacture drivelines and U joints here, and it would be better if he did it in China?
Will we not take his tax dollars, that he pays on Neapco, his US subsidiary?

What about Rupert Murdoch? another foreign born billionaire, with political connections in foreign countries, who owns Fox News, the Wall Street Journal, and many other main stream media companies in the USA. He, too, got to be where he is due to his political connections in Australia, Great Britain, and now, the USA. Should we also refuse his jobs, his companies, his dollars?

The fact is, the global economy is more and more intertwined, harder to sort out and understand, and harder to draw simple lines of right and wrong, us and them.
Its a mess, but its the mess we live in.

Evan
05-08-2010, 06:37 PM
If you want to see how the US is no different go to

http://theyrule.net

Pick a few maps to see how the corporate and political structure is intertwined. All the directors of all the big US corps all know each other or are no more than a couple of people away. Directors often serve on the boards of several companies and may even serve together with a person who serves on the board of a direct competitor as well as being elected to office.

krutch
05-08-2010, 07:11 PM
Well the fat cats may be chinese, but at least us the oily rags will be able to get work.



Don't be too sure about that! Chances are they will import the cheap labor too. Or at least pay the going rate in China. A bowl of rice a day. For the whole family!!

wierdscience
05-08-2010, 09:22 PM
I wasnt there, so I dont know.
But most of the info on the web leads one to believe that he actually did fix bicycles, himself.



The fact is, the global economy is more and more intertwined, harder to sort out and understand, and harder to draw simple lines of right and wrong, us and them.
Its a mess, but its the mess we live in.

I think you nailed it.Exactly WHO do people think should run a corporation?Santa Claus doesn't exist,niether do humble zen Buddists MBA's.

As for politics, business and politics have always been entertwined ever since the first time goods were traded.As far as that goes Global commerce has always existed and is nothing new,I mean what did those Greeks build all those ships for way back when anyway?Because they could get something someone else wanted from somewhere else and turn a buck doing it.

The relationship between business and politics is a simple protection racket old as man.It's a way for the political types who are good at nothing to become rich without working.At least in modern America,in colonial America the leadership were business men.They literaly built the country.

I guess if MSNBC and CNN existed at the time of the revolution Paul Revere and Ben Franklin would have been castigated as an example of corporate conflict of intrest or the military industrial complex:rolleyes:

Evan
05-08-2010, 09:47 PM
China's

Pearl River Delta (PRD) region, the part mainland of China closest to Hong Kong that cranks out about one-third of China's exports, is facing an acute labor shortage most people can only dream of right now.

China Daily:

At a job fair in Shenzhen yesterday, only 1,000 workers were looking for jobs.

In Dongguan, some 150,000 extra workers are needed after the Spring Festival, according to Huang Huiping, an official with the Dongguan labor and social security bureau.

Sources with the bureau said there were two jobs in the city for every worker in December.

The processing industries are facing up to 80 percent job vacancies, Huang said. "It is because many factories have opened more production lines following increased overseas orders," Huang said.

"Workers' salaries will increase by 30 percent this year. But we still find it hard to employ qualified workers," Zhang said.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-labour-shortage-2010-2#ixzz0nOWNq4gY


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-labour-shortage-2010-2#ixzz0nOW4j6VE


It's changing fast in China.



Foreign workers (and wives) pour into China
By Kent Ewing

HONG KONG - Thousands of illegal Vietnamese workers are flooding into China's Pearl River Delta region, the country's manufacturing hub. At the same time, an increasing number of hard-up Chinese men are looking to Vietnam in search of the ideal wife.

Both stories speak volumes about changes in China's economic and social landscape. Double-digit economic growth has returned to the nation as the world climbs out of a prolonged recession, and the social stability so fretted over by the Communist Party leadership remains largely intact. But, although its economic juggernaut continues to roll, China is not the same country that it was only a few years ago.

Illegal Vietnamese migrants are taking low-paying factory jobs

that Chinese workers no longer want, and Chinese men - at least many of those who like to sound off on web blogs and in Internet chat rooms - are fed up with the soulless avarice of Chinese women and employing matchmakers to find them more "obedient" Vietnamese wives. Indeed, their predilection for brides from Vietnam has ignited a web war of words over the merits of Chinese women versus their Vietnamese counterparts.

For male netizens who have taken the plunge into a foreign marriage, the verdict is in: Vietnamese women are the best. Their testimonies abound.

A happy newlywed from the eastern city of Nanjing writes of his Vietnamese bride: "[She is] not greedy, not lazy, not too free, not arrogant, not money-worshipping. [She is] pretty, hard-working, kind-hearted, and the key is obedient."


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LD30Ad01.html


Bucking the automation trend, Suntech Power Holdings credits its rise in the solar industry to people, and lots of them.
Rather than use expensive robots, Suntech employs roughly 2,500 workers to assemble solar cells into panels and perform other tasks ordinarily handled by machines. The workers give Suntech a lower operating cost than Western competitors, and there are fewer broken cells, said Steve Chan, vice president of business development at the company.

The factory workers make, on average, about $200 a month, not including housing subsidies, free food and an on-site medical clinic. (It's about half of what a new college graduate earns in China).

Low-tech as it sounds, the approach has led to a Moore's Law-like growth rate for the Shanghai-based company. Suntech, which makes both solar cells and completed panels, was an asterisk in overall market share in 2002. By 2005, it was the eighth largest solar cell maker in the world, according to statistics from Photon International. In 2006, it jumped to fourth and this year passed No. 3 Kyocera in solar cell manufacturing capacity.

...

http://news.cnet.com/Chinese-challenger-aims-for-top-spot-in-solar-tech/2100-11392_3-6191465.html

$200 doesn't sound like much but even in Shanghai a one room apartment is about half that per month and food is dirt cheap. You can eat for maybe $20 per month if you shop at the open air markets according to some well documented blogs I checked in Shanghai. Other cities are less expensive as Shanghai is one of the most expensive cities in China.

lazlo
05-08-2010, 10:05 PM
I think you nailed it.Exactly WHO do people think should run a corporation?

The ruling members of the Communist Party, of course.

wierdscience
05-08-2010, 10:13 PM
The ruling members of the Communist Party, of course.

What do Obama's cabinet picks have to do with this?:p :D

oldtiffie
05-08-2010, 10:52 PM
Post #17:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=547558&postcount=17




.................................................. ...............................


One product does not make a trend. Most of Apple's products are made in China, and they're excellent quality as well, but that's because Apple designed, built and maintains the factory. But the vast majority of the Chinese hand tools I get from Enco, MSC, KBC Tools et al are the same quality as the Chinese tools I bought 10 years ago. And a quick glance at any Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Sears, or Home Depot shows the mass-market machine tools haven't gotten any better either. In fact, a lot of them are getting worse.


You reap what you sow. You're not going to get quality products from slave labor working in sweat shops. That's why the quality of the products coming from Taiwan is much higher than mainland China, even though they're the brothers and sisters of the Chinese laborers. Taiwan is a first-world country. They're educated, have health care and safety standards, are paid decent wages, and work as a career, not a 3-year stint like the peasant labor used in most of the Communist factories.

Lazlo:

But the vast majority of the Chinese hand tools I get from Enco, MSC, KBC Tools et al are the same quality as the Chinese tools I bought 10 years ago. And a quick glance at any Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Sears, or Home Depot shows the mass-market machine tools haven't gotten any better either. In fact, a lot of them are getting worse.

Doc covered that very comprehensively at post #22:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=547650&postcount=22

If you got "bitten" once, that's bad enough, but if you keep on getting bitten because you keep on doing it is - to put it politely - nobody's (else's) fault but your own.


You reap what you sow. You're not going to get quality products from slave labor working in sweat shops. That's why the quality of the products coming from Taiwan is much higher than mainland China, even though they're the brothers and sisters of the Chinese laborers. Taiwan is a first-world country. They're educated, have health care and safety standards, are paid decent wages, and work as a career, not a 3-year stint like the peasant labor used in most of the Communist factories.

Perhaps so - in part - but otherwise more or less the same as a lot of other people, corporations and countries elsewhere - as posted by several others here and previously.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=taiwan+%2B+corruption&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=taiwan+%2B+corruption&gs_rfai=&fp=ee2f5f94750842e8

J Tiers
05-08-2010, 10:55 PM
If you folks have not yet figured out that the perks and money go NOT to those who do the work, or make the inventions, etc, but to the ones who can successfully take credit for it, well, you haven't been awake for your life so far. This phenomenon has and knows NO BORDERS.

The rulers of the Soviet Union were living extremely high off the hog.....with perks and money and country houses etc, while the average russian worker was standing in lines for many hours to get most of what they needed.
I do not imagine for one second that the rulers of china are different.

We do have one difference, most of the folks who go to congress were rich before they went..... it isn't as common for them to become fabulously wealthy WHILE in office.... For one thing, it is expensive to get elected, and for anotehr, there is always someone on the lookout for that sort of thing...... packages of money in the freezer, etc.

I used to say that Republicans got in trouble for money, and Democrats for sex. Any more, each has added the other's sins to their own natural ones..... Democrats stash ill-gotten money in freezers, and Republicans sneak off to visit their mistresses.

You know what? They all look pretty much like "people".....

Except that in my experience, bankers taste like rattlesnake...... politicians taste a bit like chicken, and a bit like pork, it just depends on the seasoning. You can try it ans see what you think...... but remember to peel the rind off the bankers......... and don't cut into the "mud vein" of the politicians....... that ruins the meat.

oldtiffie
05-09-2010, 02:58 AM
This is the title of the OP: "Jobs coming back to America from China?"

This is the text:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/06/news/international/china_america.fortune/index.htm

Article essentially says that Chinese companies are opening up factories here as opposed to China..Reasons vary from cost of electricity, reliability of power grid, land costs and closer to American clients to meet their needs..
It neither says that jobs are coming back to the USA (ie US jobs that were out-sourced to China) nor does it say that any jobs were actually created in China and out-sourced to the USA.

Perhaps the jobs to be created in the USA by the Chinese are just new jobs - period.

Does it really matter who is "in charge" or not so long as people have a good job and the certainty and the self-esteem that goes with it? and perhaps some prospects of using and learning new skills and technology and perhaps graduated training and advancement?

I really don't know if we have any or many Chinese firms here - haven't looked either - but those here who work for Taiwanese and Japanese and Singaporean companies seem to be pretty happy and well looked after.

Those who work for Ford and GM (production) seem to do pretty well too - same with Mitsubishi and Toyota etc.

If those companies "head-hunt" good employees from some of the $hit-head local companies perhaps it will make those local lesser employers either lift their games - or go under.

It may be nice to have a job - but its nicer to have a choice and be "wanted".

I just hope that is all works out for/in the US as it is the power-house for the rest of us really and when it gets going again we will all be a lot better off.

With luck - others may follow China as regards jobs - good jobs - in the USA.

I hope so.

andy_b
05-09-2010, 10:33 AM
They do it all the time- as noted above, Apple has most of their hardware built in China. Sure, Apple reps built the factory and oversee it, but it's not like they're compelling savages to pull levers and push rocks around. The technicians are still Chinese, and highly skilled.

Doc.

Not only do I know people who have setup factories in China, but let's just say I know who supplies what to Apple (and have worked with them). You would be somewhat incorrect in your assumptions. The factories are indeed setup so the average "savage" who can barely pull a lever or move a rock are in fact producing the products. Of course the Chinese workers are not savages, but they are unskilled and it is up to the usually imported "overseers" to fix problems and keep things running. That will eventually change, and in many places it is.

I would be happy to see ANY company set up more manufacturing operations here in the US. I am just concerned with all of the profits leaving the US.

andy b.

oldtiffie
05-09-2010, 10:49 AM
.................................................. ........................
.................................................. ............................

I would be happy to see ANY company set up more manufacturing operations here in the US. I am just concerned with all of the profits leaving the US.

andy b.
And implicit in that statement is the question that if the profits are sufficient for the Chinese, why has not some American (venture capital?) company done it?

"Nothing ventured - nothing gained".

J Tiers
05-09-2010, 11:27 AM
This is the title of the OP: "Jobs coming back to America from China?"


It neither says that jobs are coming back to the USA (ie US jobs that were out-sourced to China) nor does it say that any jobs were actually created in China and out-sourced to the USA.

Perhaps the jobs to be created in the USA by the Chinese are just new jobs - period.


Well, I have seen several cases of previously outsourced work coming BACk, but only in cases where the factory was not packed up and shipped to china. THOSE never come back.

A large manufacturer of HVAC equipment in Tennessee or Kentucky (I forget which) brought back a quantity of jobs when the costs got too high in china (plus shipping). They were VERY happy that they had not scrapped the old factory, although some shareholders had apparently been screaming for that to happen, being grumpy about paying for it when it wasn't being used.

Tony Ennis
05-09-2010, 12:48 PM
Opening up a factory in the US is very expensive. Environmental impact studies, endless lawsuits, etc.

Evan
05-09-2010, 01:14 PM
There should be plenty of closed ones for sale cheap.

http://us.businessesforsale.com/us/search/Manufacturing-Businesses-for-sale

Weston Bye
05-09-2010, 01:30 PM
There should be plenty of closed ones for sale cheap.

http://us.businessesforsale.com/us/search/Manufacturing-Businesses-for-sale

Sure the land and buildings are cheap, but nothing happens without site surveys, environmental impact studies, permits, variances, etc, etc, etc. Government and lawyers may not be opposed to manufacturing and business, but have made it routinely difficult to start up anything new.

And, of course, they, government and lawyers, want their cut.

J Tiers
05-09-2010, 02:10 PM
To say nothing about the accepting of 100% responsibility for buried or otherwise concealed environmental hazards.......

Even a buried tank of diesel might cost millions to remove, depending. And you would be required to remove it, and remove all the soil around it if there was any evidence of a leak. it would have to be done by a licensed hazmat cleanup contractor.

Contaminated soil? Sky is the limit.

Evan
05-09-2010, 03:06 PM
If you buy a business that is still operating but on it's last legs that doesn't apply as long as your use is similar. It's just a business sale.

Ries
05-09-2010, 04:17 PM
We do have one difference, most of the folks who go to congress were rich before they went..... it isn't as common for them to become fabulously wealthy WHILE in office....


Actually not true.

LBJ was dirt poor, and the presidential salary while he was in office was a measly hundred grand, but when he died, he was a millionaire who owned TV stations.

Reagan benefited from several sweetheart deals while Governor and President that made him rich.

Cheney was a public servant most of his life, then was plucked from a $150,000 per year public job to be CEO of Halliburton, making him suddenly enormously wealthy, now worth over 100 million. He had a BA in political science, and virtually no private sector experience in his entire life.

Clinton was born poor, and never made much money, til AFTER he became president.

Of course, the Kennedy's and the Bushes were very wealthy first, but plenty of US politicians start out poor, and emerge rich, on relatively low government salaries. Sarah Palin made 12 million last year. And she only served half a term...

But more to the point, political hacks dont build multinational companies, from scratch, that dominate their market sectors worldwide.
Most of our rich politicians didnt actually build much of anything, much less manufacture- they were either handed jobs at the top, with no working their way up, or they made the money on no show jobs, selling books, and giving speeches. Who wouldnt take a baseball team, when you only had to invest a few percent of the sales price? But somehow, those opportunities have never been offered to me or you.
Actually building up a company that has factories all over the world, and making a profit at it, even in the USA, which, we all know, is a bit tougher to do than in China, indicates to me that this guy Guanqui is a real businessman, regardless of who his friends are.

Another thing- you guys who talk about how hard it is to start a business here in the USA- Why is it that the Russians, the Indians, the Germans, the Koreans, the Japanese, and, now, the Chinese, all somehow just march right in and do it, while Americans whine on the sidelines?

I have mentioned here before all the new steel mills being built in the last 5 years are almost all, with the exception of Nucor, foreign money and companies. They didnt seem to find it so hard- the Germans, Thyssen Krupp, are building a $5 billion dollar mill in Alabama- they seem to be getting permits.
Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, Kia, Hyundai and more all build auto factories here- again, the laws and permits havent seemed to slow them down much.
In each case, a business saw a market, with expectations of profit, and invested in america- just like these chinese companies are doing. They arent doing it for political reasons, or for world domination- its all about the benjamins. There is plenty of money to be made in manufacturing in the USA- its just most american investors see MORE money in CDO's, Hedge Funds, and other Wall Street funny money shenanigans.

J Tiers
05-09-2010, 04:44 PM
There is plenty of money to be made in manufacturing in the USA- its just most american investors see MORE money in CDO's, Hedge Funds, and other Wall Street funny money shenanigans.

That's probably true..... It has been taught as gospel truth for about 30 years now in business schools...... that you HAVE to do that, basically.. You HAVE TO outsource if you will benefit shareholders by doing it, that's the rule.

As for the rich in office...... Congresscritters are usually rich before election, if they are rich after.

The Clintons, who I have very little "time for", got book deals and various types of "being taken care of"..... mostly but possibly not all after exiting.

And presidents have enough visibility that they generally command a sizeable price for coming to talk to a group in the years after they exit..... in a week they can make your annual salary look like pocket change.

I don't disagree that there may be exceptions, but the general run of things is not to get into congress so you can become rich.... Mayors and city councils don't get rich as a matter of course, etc, etc....

In other countries, that is pretty much the rule, mayors etc get rich..... So I don't think you ought to get quite so excited.

People are inherently corrupt, but we are not as bad as the vast majority of countries where 'the envelope" is needed just to get a phone, or a driver's license...... We still think that is not acceptable...... and folks lose their positions and go to jail for it.

Not so in say, India..... or probably 100+ other countries, where it is known and accepted and never considered odd.

sansbury
05-09-2010, 07:12 PM
Actually building up a company that has factories all over the world, and making a profit at it, even in the USA, which, we all know, is a bit tougher to do than in China, indicates to me that this guy Guanqui is a real businessman, regardless of who his friends are.

Don't kid yourself--the connections between government power and wealth in China are much deeper than here. This is not to say that China isn't growing some real business talent, but you don't get above a pretty low level of wealth without being connected to the Army, the Party, or organized crime, to the degree that those three groups are separate. The law there is much more arbitrary, and the consequences of getting on the wrong side of it considerably worse.


Another thing- you guys who talk about how hard it is to start a business here in the USA- Why is it that the Russians, the Indians, the Germans, the Koreans, the Japanese, and, now, the Chinese, all somehow just march right in and do it, while Americans whine on the sidelines?

Most people here are probably looking at smaller shops--from a few people to a few dozen. The game is very different for a mom-and-pop versus a billion-dollar multinational opening yet another manufacturing facility. The latter can afford a personnel department, corporate counsel, compliance specialists, etc., a lot more easily than the small producer who is often subject to most if not all of the same rules.

Also, companies opening facilities employing hundreds of people can often get all sorts of goodies from state and local governments. 500 new jobs are "news" so politicians can take credit for helping to bring Hyundai or Krupp to their district. From a political power standpoint it's much more convenient to make stacks of rules so you can give breaks to favored parties.

sansbury
05-09-2010, 07:27 PM
Another data point in all this: As of 2009, 6 of the 10 richest counties in the US were suburbs of DC. In 2000, 4 of 10 were. Go back to 1980 and you might see two or three on there. Tyson's Corner has office buildings like you might see in the best parts of Palo Alto or Wall Street. I've occasionally wondered why I spend 5-6 figures a year on marketing for my business rather than hiring a lobbyist or two to help me get an earmark or two.

oldtiffie
05-09-2010, 07:51 PM
Going by this thread and given all the hurdles and hoops as well as negativity and a chronic lack of self-confidence, it seems that the prospects for either Americans creating jobs for Americans in America from within the USA or having at least some created for them by "furriners" are looking pretty bleak.

I hope that is wrong - and I'm sure I am wrong - but its not a "good look" - so far.

Weston Bye
05-09-2010, 08:15 PM
If you buy a business that is still operating but on it's last legs that doesn't apply as long as your use is similar. It's just a business sale.

Uh...no....

If you are going to buy industrial/commercial property you absolutely want to have a site survey done, especially if there is the potential, no matter how remote, that there could be some sort of contamination. As Jerry said, you become 100% responsible once you sign on the dotted line, although you can still spend money on lawyers to get previous owner(s) to chip in, maybe.

How do I know this? My son-in-law does site surveys for a living and has experience in breaking the bad news to property owners.

Evan
05-09-2010, 08:28 PM
Yes, I know that you will inherit what ever problems go with the site but you will not have to go through the permit process or do an environmental impact study or any of the roadblocks related to NIMBY. Those are the real show stoppers for companies that don't have a billion or so to grease the wheels by making the enterprise too attractive to pass up. We have exactly the same issues here. Just try to do anything here that might kill a single fish for instance.

wierdscience
05-09-2010, 08:53 PM
Actually not true.

LBJ was dirt poor, and the presidential salary while he was in office was a measly hundred grand, but when he died, he was a millionaire who owned TV stations.

I have mentioned here before all the new steel mills being built in the last 5 years are almost all, with the exception of Nucor, foreign money and companies. They didnt seem to find it so hard- the Germans, Thyssen Krupp, are building a $5 billion dollar mill in Alabama- they seem to be getting permits.
Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, Kia, Hyundai and more all build auto factories here- again, the laws and permits havent seemed to slow them down much.
.

Two points,one LBJ may have been poor,but Lady Byrd was Looooooaded thanks to Brown and Root and several other large holdings.


Second I have witnessed my own state bend over backwards for foreign companies and give a cold shoulder to US firms.Why I'm not sure,but the concessions never end if it's a foreign company.

oldtiffie
05-09-2010, 09:09 PM
Tell 'em to bend over forwards.

Ries
05-10-2010, 11:39 AM
Two points,one LBJ may have been poor,but Lady Byrd was Looooooaded thanks to Brown and Root and several other large holdings.


Second I have witnessed my own state bend over backwards for foreign companies and give a cold shoulder to US firms.Why I'm not sure,but the concessions never end if it's a foreign company.

You should read Robert Caro's multibook biography of LBJ- it was actually LBJ who, beginning in the 30's, was Brown and Root's errand boy- he greased the wheels for them to get hundreds of millions of federal contracts, beginning in the late 30's, and especially thru WW2. Lady Bird wasnt rich first, she had a small inheritance- she invested something like 40 grand, in businesses that were eventually worth $150,000,000. Several of the deals she invested in, like Austin radio station KTBC, were not exactly available to anyone else- things that were not for sale, until LBJ's wife was suddenly given bargain basement prices on them.

The story of LBJ and the Brown and Root conglomerate is the story of the growth of the american military industrial complex- its fascinating, entertaining, and pretty terrible to read about how a few politicians, supplied with ample campaign contributions and sweetheart financial "opportunities" helped create the huge businesses that made literally billions during WW2, and after.

I dont know about Texas, but I do know that here in Washington, we give Boeing EVERYTHING it asks for- far more than Toyota or BMW get in the south. There are numerous special laws that only apply to Boeing, exempting them from taxes, special freeways built to their plants, special labor laws, and much more.
When Boeing recently built their$700 million dollar plant in South Carolina, they got an A ticket discount package from the state.
I am not convinced that american companies get any different treatment if they offer to build new plants- its just that fewer of them do.
The euros and the asians see profits to be made in the USA, but american companies want MORE profit, sooner, and have spearheaded the offshoring.
Short term wall street thinking.

J Tiers
05-10-2010, 09:14 PM
The euros and the asians see profits to be made in the USA, but american companies want MORE profit, sooner, and have spearheaded the offshoring.
Short term wall street thinking.

Perfectly correct.

A US company rarely has very many folks thinking as much as 3 to 5 years ahead about what would be best for the company to be doing...... really.....

That is rather long-term for an exec who is coming into a rotation position for a few months to a year, and needs to make a spectacular showing in that time. He or she has no particular interest in whether the company will benefit in 3 years, and no compunctions about short-term milking to make a splash.

After all, he will be promoted or will move within two years, and if his successor has serious problems, that's not his problem. In fact, he may be that person's boss, and in a position to 'spin" the results.

A Japanese company regards 5 years as "near term". And operating purely for personal benefit is "not regarded as good", to say the least.

many foreign companies are still in business to make a product, and a profit for the shareholders.

Most american companies seem to be in business as a way for execs to become bonus eligible, a way for them to join the big leagues and have a chance to pull down salaries that amount to $3000 per hour on a 60 hour week (as if they worked one). The product, the shareholders, or the workers are just like air...... they provide the framework for the privileged few.

I am not a left-wing revolutionary, but I CAN see that even as a shareholder, those top level folks are not really working for me, all too often they are working for them, and any benefit to me is money they don't get, and don't like not getting.

it would be surprising if a different attitude, and fewer heavy salaries to support, did NOT make a huge difference in profits.... How can you suck out a hundred or two hundred million in excessive salaries and still be profitable?

oldtiffie
05-10-2010, 09:57 PM
Why the defeatist attitude with so many here?

Where are the "can do" and "get up and go" and take a few risks on the way in the USA that were the envy and template for the rest of the world - or a lot of it?

There is one hell of a "dog in the manger" attitude in some of the posts here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_in_the_Manger

I just hope its not a representative cross-sectional attitude of the people in the USA at large.

And you lot not only criticise the kids but set your-self up as some paragon of virtue and as an example for the kids.

Some paragons.

Some examples.

Keep your tongue between your teeth and get off your freckle - and go for it.

Get rid of the doom and gloom - as well as the sense of betrayal and disillusionment. Get rid of the sense of entitlement.

There is no "Magic Pudding" (OZ version of "Manna from Heaven" and the "Loaves and Fishes" efforts) and the "Cargo Cultism" doesn't work either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Pudding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

These is nothing and no-one holding you back but yourselves.

Some are starting to sound like a re-run of the situation in Greece (and Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland) - and perhaps the UK as well?

You Americans can do better than this - again - surely.

Just do it!!

J Tiers
05-10-2010, 10:13 PM
Vell, Tiffie..... ve haf got real goot at some tings, but not such goot tings to do........

American innovation has been very active in the financial sector....... American (and some French, to give a nod of the guillotine to "Fab" Tourre) finance folks have been altogether TOO innovative of late......

The thing you have to realize is that it is essentially impossible to be innovative in a larger company..... Not only is the company no longer really INTERESTED at the top levels, but there are too many layers protecting themselves against risk.

You have to do it yourself, outside that large company environment. Not everyone is really suited to that "down and dirty business thing", to be innovative AND still make payroll every week...

In fact, the better suited to it you are, the less likely you are to be innovative... innovation is at it's highest among the somewhat impractical thinkers, while good business people often have a nearly total lack of imagination.

You really need partners, one innovator, and one promoter/businessperson. If that goes well, it works exceedingly well, but it very often goes bad. I have seen it happen in several companies now.


And teh post begs the question...... if you so smart why ain't you rich? ;)

oldtiffie
05-10-2010, 10:31 PM
Vell, Tiffie..... ve haf got real goot at some tings, but not such goot tings to do........

.................................................. .................
And teh post begs the question...... if you so smart why ain't you rich? ;)

Touché - you've quoted me back to myself!!

That's very perceptive of you JT.

Me? Rich?

Damned right I am - lots of it!!

Rich is an abbreviation/shortening of "Richard" - is it not?

Dick is also a nick-name for Richard too - is that not true also?

Now as there most likely will not be a bigger dick-head here than me and as it follows that in that regard at least, that I have more "dick" than just about anyone else it also necessarily follows that I have more "rich" than most here.

I guess that I don't need to tell or remind you that in that sense I live a very "rich" and fulfilling life and am therefore very rich.

And if bull-$hit was money - I'm rolling in it.

No?

Am I lonely or alone here?

Not bloody likely!!

Ries
05-11-2010, 11:32 AM
Okay, I am game.
Until my kid started driving, a scary month and a half ago, I drove by two new mini-factories every day on my way to town.
Both are examples of oddball american ingenuity.
Both are new buildings, built in the last couple of years, on what was a bare field.

One is the world leader in self inking rolling rubber stamps and stamp pads for the scrapbooking market. Not a very strategically important product, to be sure, but one that you would automatically assume would be made in China- cheap injection molded plastic, a low cost consumer product. But it was invented, and is made, right here. We are a high wage, high tax state, with lots of environmental regulations, and it seemed to phase these guys not in the least. They outgrew their rented facility over in Anacortes, and built a new plant. NO, they arent going to employ all the laid off auto workers in Detroit- its a small, maybe 15,000 to 20,000 foot building, a couple dozen workers, but still, its a success, and in a competitive market.
http://www.clearsnap.com/

Right next door to it is another new tiltup, that houses the world leader in fans and airmoving equipment for drying out flooded buildings. Again, a wierd, small niche market, where innovation, response to the market place, and quality trump low price. I know several people who have worked for them over the years, they just keep growing and growing. Floods seem to keep happening, worldwide. You would also think this stuff would be made in China. But it aint.
http://www.drieaz.com/
I dont know how much actual injection molding they do in house- but they are definitely a manufacturer.


Then, about ten miles from me, is an incredible success story- Janicki- a company started by an engineer frustrated with working for a bigger company, with almost NO money, no big investors, just good ideas and brains. After a mere 17 years, he employs over 350 people, and is the absolute world leader in large scale milling, with 5 milling machines among the largest in the world, making the tooling for Airbus, Boeing, and other major companies. Try One Hundred foot by Twenty Foot milling capacity in 5 axis.
http://www.janicki.com/

In addition to that, my small county, population about 120,000, is home to several other world class small scale manufacturing companies- we are currently building land speed record race cars, oil spill response boats for Dubai, ferries for Alaska, high tech honeycomb for aerospace, and much more.

None of the businesses are more than 30 year old or so, with the exception of a family boatyard from the 40's.
All are classic american innovation- do it better, and you will sell it.
As I said, we are a classic liberal high tax state, with very high expenses of doing business, and lots of regulations. And, amazingly enough, this makes NO difference in the fact that, because its a nice place to live, and a good place to do business, people come here anyway, and start successful businesses.
Certainly, there are failures, and poor people, and layoffs here too, due to the economy. The area has been growing consistently, which means construction was a big part of the local economy, and that is dead right now.

But the fact is, smart people start successful businesses, at a small scale, in the USA, every day. Its still quite possible. Many of my neighbors export globally. You got to, to compete with low wage countries. You also just have to be the best- being average just dont cut it.

Aside from Boeing, my area has never been a stronghold of big businesses that employed thousands- its been a part of the USA that attracted self starters, rebels, entrepreneurs, and as a result, has always had a strong culture of small shops and businesses, of people who dont expect to just "get hired" but, instead, create their own opportunities.

oldtiffie
05-11-2010, 07:05 PM
Great up-lifting post Ries.

Its the self-starters and small and medium enterprises (from the single sole-trader, small "mum and dad" and larger) that are the basis of our economy here in OZ as well so far as employment and growth go.

A lot fail - but the better ones survive and many of them do very well and go on to bigger, better and other things. Many are punching well above their weight.

They are the main innovators and employers and are paid increasing attention to by Governments and the media who previously ignored them in favour of the "big end of town".