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View Full Version : A man and his invention. Safety first!



juergenwt
05-20-2010, 02:19 PM
Take a look at this video. Here is a man who has absolute confidence in his safety devise. This could be the next OSHA requirement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=E3mzhvMgrLE&NR=1

rotate
05-20-2010, 02:33 PM
Apparently, he approached all the major tool makers and they all said that they are not interested. I can under why. It becomes a huge liability issue.

Frankly I would want this in my table saw. Having a wet piece of wood could cause unnecessary and expensive damage.

vpt
05-20-2010, 02:35 PM
I saw this awhile ago, just amazing! This type of thing could be used for quite a few aplications.

Tony Ennis
05-20-2010, 02:47 PM
and they all said that they are not interested.

It doubles the cost of the saw. And there are false positives. Each false costs about $200 or more. And it has to be very hard on the saw.

I believe it is available as an aftermarket add-on.

paulsv
05-20-2010, 02:52 PM
You can buy a saw equipped with this today. It isn't cheap:

http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/SawStop-PCS31230-TGP252-10-Professional-Cabine-p/SWS-PCS31230-TGP252.htm&click=123

Ryobi has already lost a lawsuit by a worker injured on one of its saws- they were held liable for selling a saw without it:

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/malden/articles/2010/03/06/man_wins_15m_in_first_of_its_kind_saw_case/

So if you want to buy a table saw for your shop without having to pay an additional $1,000 or so for a Sawstop, you'd better buy it soon. You will already probably be paying more for the saw becasue all saw manufacturers' insurance premiums have probably now gone through the roof

paulsv
05-20-2010, 02:54 PM
Oh, and regarding the video, I don't care how many times I saw it work on a hot dog, I could never force myself to touch a spinning table saw blade like the guy in the video!

MuellerNick
05-20-2010, 03:56 PM
This saw isn't that new (maybe 5 years old?).
You can't saw metal on it, except you switch off the safety feature.

On one hand, I think it is really great. On the other hand, I feel it promotes user's stupidity and carelessness.

For sure, a finger is more worth than 10 of those saws. But the no-metal, no-whet-wood disadvantage is what stops me from buying one. Besides of that, I don't need a table saw.


Nick

MotorradMike
05-20-2010, 07:31 PM
This is a real can-o-worms. On one hand, it makes loads of sense to protect the operator against 'loss of limb'. On the other hand, it seems the operator has some serious responsibility to protect him/herself.

IMHO, loss of fingers at home is YOUR OWN FAULT. Great learning experience and YOU CAN STILL WALK. DEAL WITH IT!

My good friend lost the use of his legs this Winter skiing. Is he blaming anyone else? NO.
Why?
IT WAS HIS OWN FAULT!

The guy who sued somebody because he cut his hand on a table saw should be SHOT AND PISSED ON.

I'm stopping now before I get thrown out.
Please don't tell me where this cretin lives.

beanbag
05-20-2010, 07:38 PM
why not have a mechanism that just pulls the saw blade downwards?

38_Cal
05-20-2010, 07:52 PM
A guy I knew owned a van conversion shop in No. CA. Managed to cut off three fingers on a table saw that he had removed the guard from, almost cut off the fourth. Got him and them to the doctor in time and had them re-attached. After he had been back at work a few weeks, with his hand in a major cast/stud device, a customer of his stopped by...saw his hand and asked what had happened. The shop owner explained the situation, and the customer's next words were, "Who do you want to sue?" (Editorial content: D@MN those greedy lawyers!) My acquaintance politely told the lawyer-customer that he had taken off the guard and it was his own stupidity and carelessness that had caused the accident...and he was not suing anyone!

David

rohart
05-20-2010, 08:11 PM
If it does catch on there might be an upside. Maybe professional shops will have to upgrade fast to the new safety saws, and the market will be flooded with good cheap used table saws without the device.

I can't see how a table saw can possibly be used with a guard. Sure, if someone designed a guard that would seamlessly retract as the work got to it I might consider using a guard, but seeing the guard push my work off line and away from the fence - forget it.

I can see how you can get careless if you're using the saw day in, day out. I just stay scared full time when the saw is on, and I concentrate fully. Like when I'm carrying an open pot of paint around. Like on lots of occasions. Concentrate on not being a pratt !

If you're having a clumsy day, do the accounts.

MotorradMike
05-20-2010, 08:38 PM
I just stay scared full time when the saw is on, and I concentrate fully. Like when I'm carrying an open pot of paint around. Like on lots of occasions. Concentrate on not being a pratt !

If you're having a clumsy day, do the accounts.

Right on!
Except the part about being a pratt. I have no clue about what a 'pratt' is.
I'm part Britt and know not to 'prang' things. Is a 'pratt' the hapless fool that does the 'pranging'?

Seriously, I love this bit.
"I just stay scared full time when the saw is on"
I live that too.

aboard_epsilon
05-20-2010, 08:50 PM
Pratt is just a couple of swear words molded into one ..so the word no longer reads as a swear word ..so it's a combination of pr*ck and tw*t...the extra t is because lots of people have the sirname pratt....so thats how it got spelt.

all the best.markj

vpt
05-20-2010, 08:55 PM
I don't feel this should be an industrial standard or commercial contractor must have. I feel this saw should really only be a home shop saw.

I also agree that if they could retract the saw down as fast as they can make it stop that would be a better deal. Wakes up the operator and all you would have to do is re-engage the depth controls and crank the blade back up and continue working.

Arcane
05-20-2010, 08:58 PM
If it does catch on there might be an upside. Maybe professional shops will have to upgrade fast to the new safety saws, and the market will be flooded with good cheap used table saws without the device.


I wouldn't want to bet on that (at least not with my own money :D). If it became mandatory, there's a good chance that the old saws would have to be totally scrapped. I can see some saw manufactures not being totally against such a law since it would prevent a potential customer from buying used instead of new and since every person with a Saw Stop is going to have to buy a new blade every time the unit "works it's magic", blade manufactures would love to see these things on every saw out there! I can sure see the safety zealots/fanatics pushing the scrapping of the old saws in the name of saving us from ourselves. Can't be selling "unsafe" saws to the general public if they are unsafe for a professional, eh? :rolleyes:

wierdscience
05-20-2010, 09:34 PM
Watch the thing fire very carefully and pay attention to what it does to the saw.

apo
05-20-2010, 09:36 PM
I love statistics.
Why?
Because statistics predict the future.

Picture this, you've been a carpenter/handyman for 35 years. That spinning blade is so familiar, it's almost your friend. With (or most likely without) the blade guard on, you're taking a 5" off an MDF shelf, it sticks on some residual sap on your fence then un-sticks and now you're less three fingers on your right hand.
It doesn't matter how safe you've been for the past 34 years, you just lost three fingers.

Statistics.

You've been sticking your hands within 5" of that blade for 35 years.
The number 1 has been added to the count of people unfortunate enough to have maimed themselves using a table saw this year.

This device, however annoying or costly has only one job: reducing that statistic. Everybody makes mistakes, slips, overlooks safety.

I'd rather run my fingers through a saw with SAWSTOP than the alternative.

doctor demo
05-20-2010, 10:33 PM
The wood shop at My Son's H.S. has the table saws fitted with that device. At back to school night , the instructor said that it is about $150 to re-fit the saw after a mishap. He also said that the one time it had to be replaced the Student and the Parents were happy to fork over the money...not a scratch on the kid.

Steve

gnm109
05-20-2010, 11:14 PM
I don't need one. I'll just use a table knife on my hot dogs from now on.

:)

Richard-TX
05-20-2010, 11:20 PM
The guy that invented the GFCI used to demo it my placing his daughter into a bathtub and throwing in a live extension cord. He sold a bunch of GFCIs that way.

Carld
05-21-2010, 12:02 AM
And the first time it fails to stop and cuts someone expecting it to stop there will be the biggest lawsuit ever. Think Toyota.

macona
05-21-2010, 05:46 AM
Gosh, here we go again...

The mechanism used the transfer of momentum to drop the blade down. Thats one of the reasons it moves as fast as it does.

Apparently Ryobi or one other company was going to license it and then changed their minds later. Told the sawstop guys safety dosnt sell.

Saying that this promotes user's stupidity and carelessness is like saying an airbag or seat belt in a car promotes the same.

Wet wood , from SawStop's site:


In the vast majority of cases, cutting green or damp wood is not a problem.

Wet pressure-treated wood may cause the safety system to shut off the motor or even activate the safety system’s brake. The chemicals used to pressure treat wood often contain large amounts of copper and can significantly increase the wood’s conductivity when wet. Allowing wet pressure treated wood to dry unstacked for 24 hours is typically sufficient to adequately reduce internal and surface moisture levels.

Does not double the cost of the saw. The cabinet model is in line with the price of a Delta Unisaw and is very good quality. Cannot be added to a saw, the design is integral to the saw.

TechShop in Durham has one and they have only set it off once. Apparently there was a piece of metal sandwiched in the wood.

If I was the insurance underwriter for a cabinet shop I wouldnt insure without these being in the shop.

gnm109
05-21-2010, 10:30 AM
Gosh, here we go again...

The mechanism used the transfer of momentum to drop the blade down. Thats one of the reasons it moves as fast as it does.

Apparently Ryobi or one other company was going to license it and then changed their minds later. Told the sawstop guys safety dosnt sell.

Saying that this promotes user's stupidity and carelessness is like saying an airbag or seat belt in a car promotes the same.

Wet wood , from SawStop's site:



Does not double the cost of the saw. The cabinet model is in line with the price of a Delta Unisaw and is very good quality. Cannot be added to a saw, the design is integral to the saw.

TechShop in Durham has one and they have only set it off once. Apparently there was a piece of metal sandwiched in the wood.

If I was the insurance underwriter for a cabinet shop I wouldnt insure without these being in the shop.


I understood that the units have to be built in to the saws when they are new. Is this correct? It would be rather expensive to change all of the machinery. It does appear to be a good idea but rather expensive initially.

Tony Ennis
05-21-2010, 10:51 AM
Does not double the cost of the saw. The cabinet model is in line with the price of a Delta Unisaw and is very good quality. Cannot be added to a saw, the design is integral to the saw.

It does double the cost unless every saw in your shop (or on your worksite) happens to be a Unisaw. Lots of places get by on lesser saws.

This also means that ever saw purchased must be from their company and that every saw in existence right now is irresponsibly dangerous and obsolete.

The Holy Grail of American business is to invent something then get legislation passed that requires it be used.

2ManyHobbies
05-21-2010, 01:34 PM
I love statistics.
Why?
Because statistics predict the future.

Picture this, you've been a carpenter/handyman for 35 years. That spinning blade is so familiar, it's almost your friend. With (or most likely without) the blade guard on, you're taking a 5" off an MDF shelf, it sticks on some residual sap on your fence then un-sticks and now you're less three fingers on your right hand.
It doesn't matter how safe you've been for the past 34 years, you just lost three fingers.

Statistics.

You've been sticking your hands within 5" of that blade for 35 years.
The number 1 has been added to the count of people unfortunate enough to have maimed themselves using a table saw this year.

This device, however annoying or costly has only one job: reducing that statistic. Everybody makes mistakes, slips, overlooks safety.

I'd rather run my fingers through a saw with SAWSTOP than the alternative.
That's not statistics. That's improper use of a table saw. If the work is too small to safely guide with fingers then you use other material or a push stick. If there is plenty of room, at no time do you ever have a digit in line with the blade. Of course, I'm also having trouble with how one manages to maim themselves with properly adjusted guards and blade heights.

MuellerNick
05-21-2010, 02:42 PM
Saying that this promotes user's stupidity and carelessness is like saying an airbag or seat belt in a car promotes the same.

Did your driving instructor teach you not to stop at the red light because you do have a seat belt?
Is there a table-saw instructor in every home shop?


Nick

paulsv
05-21-2010, 03:20 PM
[QUOTE=macona]
Apparently Ryobi or one other company was going to license it and then changed their minds later. Told the sawstop guys safety dosnt sell.

...


Does not double the cost of the saw. The cabinet model is in line with the price of a Delta Unisaw and is very good quality. ...QUOTE]


Actually, from what I have read, pretty much all of the saw manufacturers looked at it, and rejected it. Might have had someting to do with the amount of royalties he was asking for.

Powermatic Contractors Saw w/ 52" fence for $1,199:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2060009/23333/Powermatic-Table-Saw--Model-64A--52-Accu-Fence--Table-and-Legs.aspx

Sawstop Contractors Saw w/ 52" fence for $1,839:

http://shopping.hermance.com/Brands/SawStop-Contractor-Saws/SawStop-10-Contractor-Saw-w-52-Prof-T-Glide-Fence-System

I know that Powermatic makes a pretty high quality contractor's saw. I haven't been able to see a Sawstop saw yet. When I replace my existing saw, I'd like to have the choice to choose one or the other, rather than being forced to spend the extra $640 for the Sawstop device. But since the judge and jury gave Mr. Osario $1.5 Million of Ryobi's money, for selling the same art as everyone else is selling, other than Sawstop, I doubt we will have that choice much longer. Mr. Osario gets his $1.5 million, and we all lose our choice. Bad law and bad policy, in my opinion.

Tony Ennis
05-21-2010, 03:42 PM
The settlement will likely be thrown out or greatly reduced on the appeal.

macona
05-21-2010, 04:41 PM
The saws are made in considerably smaller numbers. I am sure if production increased the price difference would be less.

Rustybolt
05-21-2010, 08:46 PM
My friend with the cabinet shop has that thing or something very much like it.
The consumable part costs something like $150.00, but it's worth it to avoid workers comp. or possibly being sued.
So far it's been tested twice and it works.

john hobdeclipe
05-21-2010, 10:30 PM
Here's a link to a good article about the Ryobi lawsuit:

http://www.woodshopnews.com/news/news-desk/498930-table-saw-suit-nets-15m-verdict

There's something about this that bugs the crap out of me.

The worker who suffered the injury is from Colombia. Notice in paragraph 4 that he still needs a translator, after all these years.

I have to wonder if anyone ever told him of the dangers of the table saw, and if so, did he understand?

This Ryobi table saw is no different from millions of other saws in use throughout the country, and indeed the world. Yes, they're dangerous, but if you've never used one, or perhaps never even seen one, and nobody ever explained the danger to you, then I have a hard time laying the blame on the machine manufacturer. Where was this guy's supervisor? It's his responsibility to explain this stuff to the workers, and to ascertain that the workers understand the dangers and the proper usage and procedures.

And don't raise the issue of "common sense." That's rubbish.

I can remember my first days in a production woodworking environment, when I had never seen or used anything more powerful than a handsaw and an electric drill. Absolutely NOTHING about the machinery was "common sense" to me. Fortunately, I had an endless series of hazards pointed out to me before it was too late.

Don't get me started on some of the stupid management irresponsible behavior I've seen during my years in the furniture and millwork factories; I'll be up all night typing and fuming.

KiddZimaHater
05-22-2010, 10:09 AM
I've already invented a 'finger-saver' for the table saw.....
It's called a 'push-stick'!
SHESH :rolleyes:

andy_b
05-22-2010, 10:31 AM
The SawStop has been discussed here many times. Here is what I believe was the first time. My opinion of it is still the same.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=26185&highlight=sawstop

andy b.

Tony Ennis
05-22-2010, 10:44 AM
then I have a hard time laying the blame on the machine manufacturer.


Unless it isn't urban rumor, I believe the Oliver Tool Company was finished off by a lawsuit. Someone was injured by a tool they sold 30 years previously (and had been resold a few times) and had had it's safeties removed by one of the owners. Somehow the jury found Oliver responsible.