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Boot
05-28-2010, 11:05 PM
I know this was asked before , but here goes. Is the Grizzly smallest mill #8689 for $495 the same as the HF Two-speed variable Benchmill/drill machine for $399 as adver.in new HSM mag ? And which should a person buy?

recoilless
05-28-2010, 11:17 PM
I own neither, but past discussions on this subject would indicate that if these mills appear to be the same thing, they probably are made by same outfit "overthere." The main difference being that Grizz takes the mills that pass a higher QC standard (either their own or in the factory) than those sold by HF. As I said, I own neither so perhaps some satisfied owner of the particular mills you mentioned might chime in (concerning customer support of both co's).

KiddZimaHater
05-28-2010, 11:41 PM
Same animal.... different paintjobs.
However, GRIZZLY has customer service, replacement parts, and help. whereas Harbor Freight will leave you out in the cold.

MichaelP
05-28-2010, 11:50 PM
And which should a person buy?
Neither one. :)

airsmith282
05-29-2010, 12:06 AM
i bought the craftex 7x20 ct129 mill, more money but 100 times better machine, and it has vertical and horzontial milling big ++++ being able to do both and its very well built parts support is ++++ customer service ++++++ as well the good points are endless ,


you get what you pay for

kf2qd
05-29-2010, 12:13 AM
At one point the Grizzly mills had a morse taper spindle and the HF unit had an R8 spindle. Check that out as I consider R8 to be a better choice as there is a lot more tooling options.

Mike Nash
05-29-2010, 12:13 AM
They are not exactly the same. The Grizzly has a Morse Taper #3 spindle while the HF is an R8. But it is true that either will probably leave you wanting something, bigger, nicer and more expensive.

Twmaster
05-29-2010, 12:17 AM
Don't let price alone suck you in. Buy the biggest baddest machine you can. If you buy on price you'll be sorry.

oldtiffie
05-29-2010, 12:23 AM
Let the dog see the rabbit so that all we all singing top the same hymn book:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689

http://cdn8.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg288/g/g8689.jpg

http://cdn9.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg288/g/g8689_det1.jpg

http://cdn1.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg288/g/g8689_det2.jpg

Now if I recall correctly, Brian Rupnow, Dennis (dp) and Airsmith - amongst others - have similar machines and I've seen some pretty good work done by them on their machines.

They are light mills for small work but used creatively and correctly can be quite surprising.

914Wilhelm
05-29-2010, 12:26 AM
The main difference being that Grizz takes the mills that pass a higher QC standard (either their own or in the factory) than those sold by HF.

I've read this before on this site. But, I'm curious, what is the basis of this fact?

gwilson
05-29-2010, 12:29 AM
Grizzly does have an organization with spare parts,techs,and a real good reputation for customer service. They have been very helpful to me on a few occasions over the years. Now,if they would only get rid of that green paint!!

radish1us
05-29-2010, 12:45 AM
Why does this subject, get different answers, every time it raises it head ?

Before anybody else says that these machines are different, then I suggest an e-mail the Sir John is in order before posting any more.

Please read these sites and even the Little machine Shop, that sells the spare parts for these, say's they are the identical machine.

The ONLY difference is in the spindle, a Morse #3 or a R8, THAT'S IT, NO OTHER DIFFERENCE AT ALL. OK, the paint is a different colour, whoopee, what difference does that make. Now somebody is going to say a red one is faster than a green one, yep, there'll be a clown somewhere.


http://littlemachineshop.com/info/minimill.php

Have a look at this lot and notice what the specs are, for each brand, the minor differences between them is just purely cosmetic and the measurements of some, must have been taken with a rubber tape measure

http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

Recommended reading for anybody who is interested in aquiring one of these mini mills.

http://littlemachineshop.com/info/MiniMillUsersGuide.pdf


Basically, go for the cheapest one available, save your dollars, then with those dollars, go buy the tooling you'll need, why "line" some ones pocket, when the same thing is sold cheaper elsewhere.

OK, now who's going tp be the first clown to say they are different ?
Please show everybody the actual parts that make them different and don't use the excuse of the fit/finish is better. If you do, then prove it.

Twmaster
05-29-2010, 12:53 AM
Now if I recall correctly, Brian Rupnow, Dennis (dp) and Airsmith - amongst others - have similar machines and I've seen some pretty good work done by them on their machines.

They are light mills for small work but used creatively and correctly can be quite surprising.

In the hands of somebody with skill and determination just about any machine can do good work.

Take a crap machine in the hands of a complete noob and the results are not fun to watch.

A new HSM guy (or gal) will not know enough to understand whether the issues they WILL encounter are them, the machine or both.

Learning how to use this gear is not easy. It's even harder when you have to fight a poorly made machine or tooling.

Will a top quality machine make a noob an instant machinist? Of course not. However that removes one obstacle from the path of learning.

I used to own a Sieg 7x lathe. What a pile of crap. After much fighting and tweaking I gave up on it when the controller smoked. Replaced it with an old Atlas 618. Never going back to that Chinese junk again.

Again, OP, buy the biggest machine you can. It will be worthwhile in the end.

Twmaster
05-29-2010, 12:58 AM
Please read these sites and even the Little machine Shop, that sells the spare parts for these, say's they are the identical machine.

The ONLY difference is in the spindle, a Morse #3 or a R8, THAT'S IT, NO OTHER DIFFERENCE AT ALL. OK, the paint is a different colour, whoopee, what difference does that make. Now somebody is going to say a red one is faster than a green one, yep, there'll be a clown somewhere.

Agreed. I have no doubt Papa Grizzly has an inspector standing at the end of the production line ok'ing machines that 'pass' their level of QC...

That would explain why my RED HF lathe had a 'green' base coat of paint!

;)

oldtiffie
05-29-2010, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by recoilless
The main difference being that Grizz takes the mills that pass a higher QC standard (either their own or in the factory) than those sold by HF.


I've read this before on this site. But, I'm curious, what is the basis of this fact?

That is a bloody good question 194W that warrants but probably won't get a satisfactory - or any? - reasoned reply.

So far as I can see in the vast - and mostly unsubstantiated - replies are:
- it a well known fact;
- everybody knows;
- everybody says so;
- I was told;
- some largely self-appointed "expert" here says so;
- there are too many China-bashers;
- any/many with counter views are in large part bullied into not saying anything because of the weight of numbers;
- that some here who have those machines and do some very good work have positive comment on the work and little or no positive comment about the machine/s that they were made on;
- testosterone charge/d;
- made out of ignorance;
- wanting to be "one of the boys";
- not wanting to be seen as not being "one of the boys";
- using few genuine instances and extrapolating them out to be (seen as) the general case for no good reason/s;
- xenophobic?;
- sinophobic?;
etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophobia

I am looking forward to all those good and substantiated answers that just might be "out there".

RB211
05-29-2010, 02:00 AM
That is a bloody good question 194W that warrants but probably won't get a satisfactory - or any? - reasoned reply.

So far as I can see in the vast - and mostly unsubstantiated - replies are:
- it a well known fact;
- everybody knows;
- everybody says so;
- I was told;
- some largely self-appointed "expert" here says so;
- there are too many China-bashers;
- any/many with counter views are in large part bullied into not saying anything because of the weight of numbers;
- that some here who have those machines and do some very good work have positive comment on the work and little or no positive comment about the machine/s that they were made on;
- testosterone charge/d;
- made out of ignorance;
- wanting to be "one of the boys";
- not wanting to be seen as not being "one of the boys";
- using few genuine instances and extrapolating them out to be (seen as) the general case for no good reason/s;
- xenophobic?;
- sinophobic?;
etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophobia

I am looking forward to all those good and substantiated answers that just might be "out there".

Complete Bull**** if you ask me. Same factory? Same Machine.

Although a while back I had a friend in Norway which organized a group buy from Sieg. He claims that Mr.Sieg himself offered to visit him in Norway to setup a distribution company with him, and he claims that the mini lathe he was sent was spec'ed much higher than other imports... In what way? I don't know, but one would hope that perhaps his tail stock was actually parallel and concentric with the spindle. The micromark 7x14 I used to own was garbage, needed a mill to properly machine the base of the tail stock, and those damn handles always slip on the mini lathes... It is like trying to paint a Picasso with human feces.

oldtiffie
05-29-2010, 02:59 AM
This is the OP:

I know this was asked before , but here goes. Is the Grizzly smallest mill #8689 for $495 the same as the HF Two-speed variable Benchmill/drill machine for $399 as adver.in new HSM mag ? And which should a person buy?

This was my reply:

Originally Posted by oldtiffie
That is a bloody good question 194W that warrants but probably won't get a satisfactory - or any? - reasoned reply.

So far as I can see in the vast - and mostly unsubstantiated - replies are:
- it a well known fact;
- everybody knows;
- everybody says so;
- I was told;
- some largely self-appointed "expert" here says so;
- there are too many China-bashers;
- any/many with counter views are in large part bullied into not saying anything because of the weight of numbers;
- that some here who have those machines and do some very good work have positive comment on the work and little or no positive comment about the machine/s that they were made on;
- testosterone charge/d;
- made out of ignorance;
- wanting to be "one of the boys";
- not wanting to be seen as not being "one of the boys";
- using few genuine instances and extrapolating them out to be (seen as) the general case for no good reason/s;
- xenophobic?;
- sinophobic?;
etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophobia

I am looking forward to all those good and substantiated answers that just might be "out there".


Complete Bull**** if you ask me. Same factory? Same Machine.

Although a while back I had a friend in Norway which organized a group buy from Sieg. He claims that Mr.Sieg himself offered to visit him in Norway to setup a distribution company with him, and he claims that the mini lathe he was sent was spec'ed much higher than other imports... In what way? I don't know, but one would hope that perhaps his tail stock was actually parallel and concentric with the spindle. The micromark 7x14 I used to own was garbage, needed a mill to properly machine the base of the tail stock, and those damn handles always slip on the mini lathes... It is like trying to paint a Picasso with human feces.

I have yet to see either the OP or my reply answered comprehensively.

I think that John Stevenson would be as good as - better than - most as regards "hands on" experience - in his shop, in the field and in China - as just about anyone else as regards Chinese small mills and lathes - so I'd start there.

I did not respond as regards my experience of machines such as the OP mentioned - as I don't have and have not had one - so I have no first-hand experience to base any comments on.

I did mention at least three of which I think there are quite a few here who own and have used those machines across a pretty wide spectrum of work on them.

The three people I mentioned not only have similar or the same mills as the OP enquired about but if I also recall correctly those three people have the same lathe as each other (and the same as mine) and ll three started out pretty well from scratch as regards experience on those machines at least and so far as I can see they have done and continue to do very well.

As Sieg has been mentioned, I have some "skin" there as I own two Sieg mills (1 x X3 and 1 x super X3) as well as a small fully accessorised 150mm (6") Sieg lathe. The lathe really is very good for small work but doesn't have much torque at low revs for cutting heavier or tougher jobs - so I need TC so that I can "up" the revs - and the torque. The X3 mills are really good. I was that impressed with the X3 (which is to be CNC-ed) that I bought the Super X3 for non-CNC work and to replace the small mill on my then 3-in-1.

My HF-45 mill is not too bad either.

While I cannot comment directly as regards the OP's specific mills, I can say that I may have been "just lucky" but my machines were bought for a specific range or work and so far they are doing very well. I've had a (very) few "hiccups" along the way, but all in all they did what they were required to do - right out of the box.

I hope that others can and will address the OP's request and the specific mills he is considering - directly.

radish1us
05-29-2010, 03:58 AM
It appears that a heck of a lot of members here have very short memories, this very same subject has been raised many many times.

An excellent thread on this subject was at this link. OK, it's about the X3, the big brother to the X2 mill, but both these machines are made by Sieg industries from China.

So now a change of colour and it's a completely different machine, yep, right, you believe that there's fairies down the back garden too.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=14241&highlight=Sieg+X2

Go to the products section and check out the mills.

http://www.siegind.com/

If you really want an X2 machine, then go buy the cheapest one you can lay your hands on and with the dollars you save, buy some tooling.

Or, go buy the biggest machine your dollars can afford, then shell out some more for tooling.

Choice is yours alone to make.

There is now another mini mill manufacture on the scene, but that other brand does have a few differences that are easily spotted, some of the members here will have a link to the Sieg competitors page.

D_Harris
05-29-2010, 05:30 AM
It appears that a heck of a lot of members here have very short memories, this very same subject has been raised many many times.

An excellent thread on this subject was at this link. OK, it's about the X3, the big brother to the X2 mill, but both these machines are made by Sieg industries from China.

So now a change of colour and it's a completely different machine, yep, right, you believe that there's fairies down the back garden too.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=14241&highlight=Sieg+X2

Go to the products section and check out the mills.

http://www.siegind.com/

If you really want an X2 machine, then go buy the cheapest one you can lay your hands on and with the dollars you save, buy some tooling.

Or, go buy the biggest machine your dollars can afford, then shell out some more for tooling.

Choice is yours alone to make.

There is now another mini mill manufacture on the scene, but that other brand does have a few differences that are easily spotted, some of the members here will have a link to the Sieg competitors page.

Don't keep us in suspense. Spill it. :D

BTW. Has anyone noticed that Little Machine Shop is coming out with a mini lathe and a mini mill?

http://littlemachineshop.com/default.php

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

airsmith282
05-29-2010, 06:12 AM
I have heard many sotires on this board over the last few years on HF stuff and other imports not alot very good..

the grizzly and HF stuff seems to be a big debator here, HF seems that no matter how you pay your tweaking it ir fixing up some one elses screw up at the factoy before you can use it, this to me states its junk

Grizzly stuff seems ok litle bit of tweaking not so much but i hear alot of no parts or there is parts , who knows either side really,

I had a Pricess auto lathe when i first got into this stuff and it was very accurate but also very light weight so you could not push it to hard, and its flaw was the controller board smoked on it after only 2 months, but it did lack a good motor as well ,the motors are noting more then a DC cordless drill motor not a very good choice for a motor and the machine cost me 899.00 plus tax, do i hear refund yes we did, now had the engineres wanted this to be a better machine they would have faught to have a decent motor and also do away with the variable speed controll this sort of set up does not belong on a lathe,,

for only 100.00 more i went form 7x12 and 5/8 hole to 10x18 and 1 inch hole, also from a cordless drill motor to a realy nice heavy duty AC 3/4 HP motor from 89 lBS to a bog robust 350 lbs and the list goes on for only 100.00more money..

these machines are not all made in the same factoy but one would wouder right..

how much the company ordering these machines wants to pay for them has volumes to speak on what the QC is like.

when i got my 10x18 craftex i was up and running in less then 1 hour after getting it on the bench and cleaning up the shipping oils off it.

my 7x12 was ahell of mess of crap to clean up off it, but in both cases, no tweaking to do no making parts to make it better

i did get a bad tail stock sleeve with my 10x18 but that was very quickly taken care of,

now my craftex 10x18 parts are readyly avaiable andi n canada , the 7x12 i had to goto the states for parts and it was a crap shoot for getting the right parts ..

i have only ever bought one mill and its the craftex 7x20 ct129 and it can pull off some nice work and it will bite off some pretty big cuts at a time if you get your feeds and speeds and use the right cutter, get that right and you can really do some decent size stuff..
now it has variable speed control and i like it on the mill and its ok to have this feature on a mill to motor is good i have had the head apart once and its built very good, the quailty is good , over all very nice had it up and running in less then 1 hour after it got on the table. no tweaking to do,every once in awhile the speed read out display messes up but take out 2 screw clean the plate and back you go for a few more months before you clean the plate again other then that no draw backs really.

not it has mt2 and it can handle 1/2 inch shank end mills as this is the max collet size it supports but i have modded and can also get pre turned down endmills to go well past its limints, , if you use larger then 1/ 2 end mills you must take lighter cuts other wise make sure you have some spare fuses on hand,

a dove tail coloum mill will always kick but over round coloum mills for accuracy.. and yes hte ct129 is dove tail coloum.

now the ohter thing to look at is head rotation the ct129 can mill virtacal and horazontial not many mini mills have this feature and its gets this mill some serous A++++ just for that feature alone, micro mills which they are called are not every rigid dont offer and more then a complet coloum tilt of 45 left 45 right but again get what you pay for,

the micor mill even form busy bee is very similer to the HF and grizzly models and is a total waste of good money its rigid enought for balsa wood, has a mt3 but youll not make any good use of it the machine is so cheaply built that my old job mate drill press would make a more rigid mill..

you dont have to always own something to know if its any good or not, but you do have to know what to look for before spending the money.. i was really green when i got my first lathe but i was also told it was a good one to go with so i took a chance. it was accurate as all hell but it did blow up..

i learned that quaility drills taps and dies are a must , in tools you will get what you pay for about 95% of the time..

i buy alot of tools and i have bought cheap and expensive and 95% of time the more expensive is the better deal.

i think that anyone that gets into machining should do his or her home work before getting into it, not that this stuff is hard to do its not, but if you go in totaly blind it can get a bit frustrating..

decied for your self if you want cheap middle of the road or the higher end of the smaller or larger machines

if i was to class any of the smaller stuff in the order of best to least my list would read

1 craftex
2 grizzly
3 HF
now these rateings are based on a lathe of 10x18 min

for micro mills my list no matter who makes it would not exist
but given that choice id have to say

1 craftex
2 grizzly
3 HF
4 princess auto

small lathes

1 craftex
2 grizzly
3 hf
4 pricessauto

the other brands i have no idea really about them other then that some are better by looks and the work i have seem them do is pretty decent.

going from a mt2 to mt3 is not going to make for example the ct129 any more rigid of a machine it just offers a few more collet sizes and eaiser tool access then whats off the shelf then the mt2 offer but there are work arounds to make them both equal in tooling access so not really a barrier there at all ..

putting a mt3 or r8 on a micro mill is just plain dumb

for thoes that want to be hecklers dont even bother to get on me , your wasting your time..

iam very impressed at the fact that so many that seem to be against chinese stuff seem to own alot of it as well as the rest of us,,

more and more stuff is being made in chinea and twain and other places all the time, what the hecklers dont see is that what you pay for you get, they make good stuff and junk in every country,what the buyer is willing to pay for the stuff he or she sells us is the qc we get in the end...

radish1us
05-29-2010, 06:48 AM
Don't keep us in suspense. Spill it. :D

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Here is a link to the other one, it's a copy of the X2, yep even in China they rip each other off, note the visual differences. Then when some people have tried to add a standard belt drive kit, bought from Little Machine Shop and is made specially for the X2. Then quite a few things just don't line up, mods are needed for the mods.

Now some will say that it is a standard Sieg X2, if that's the case, why don't Sieg advertise it as theirs on the Sieg site ?

Somebody on this forum has posted the site url, for who actually makes these other mini mills.

http://www.warco.co.uk/productimages/documents/P53.pdf

The Artful Bodger
05-29-2010, 06:52 AM
I want to know how Chinese factories can go from making crap one day then turn out quality machines until the next order from HF comes in?:confused:

The Artful Bodger
05-29-2010, 06:56 AM
..... yep even in China they rip each other off,...

Are you sure about that? Just how much government control is there in China? Are the factories told which to make by the central government? Does the government ministry in charge of lathe making have a number of standard plans they contract companies to build?

I do not know the answers, does anyone?:)

oldtiffie
05-29-2010, 07:20 AM
AB.

It does happen.

Syil (now Toolmach) is a copy of Sieg X3 at least.
http://www.toolmach.com.au/

http://www.syil.com/product_docs/Compare_X4.pdf

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=syil&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=9b73571ef14a1b5f

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=syil+%3D+sieg&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=syil+%3D+sieg&gs_rfai=&fp=82be51f724077311

Sieg X2:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M150

Sieg X3:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M153

Sieg Super X3:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M155