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View Full Version : The new Machinist Manual for 2075, what info might it contain?



Your Old Dog
05-31-2010, 10:48 AM
These books don't update a lot from issue to issue so I'm trying to decide if I should upgrade my 24th edition or wait until the year 2075 to be really currant. What might we be dealing with in 2075? Will it be in English or Chinese? :D

lazlo
05-31-2010, 11:12 AM
There won't be any manual machines in 2075.

oldtiffie
05-31-2010, 11:17 AM
The USA will have long faced reality and "outed" itself a rabid supporter and practitioner of the Metric System.

"Starrett" will be pronounced as "Stalett" - and velly nicely too.

"Chingalish" versions of Amellican Machinist and Machinery's Hand Blook - published in China - will be published for Amellicans with "Good Old Amellican Iron".

Hardinge will be re-named "Ha-Ding" and BP will be re-named "Blidgeport".

etc.

Liger Zero
05-31-2010, 11:21 AM
There will be sections on nanotechnology, Selective Laser Sintering, other forms of 3-D prototyping and multi-axis multi-beam laser machining.

And a chapter dedicated to manual machining, one or two charts on speed/feeds... just for for historical comparison.

oldtiffie
05-31-2010, 12:17 PM
These books don't update a lot from issue to issue so I'm trying to decide if I should upgrade my 24th edition or wait until the year 2075 to be really currant. What might we be dealing with in 2075? Will it be in English or Chinese? :D

Do you seriously think that you will not only live to 2075 (65 years to go) and that you will be in good enough shape to even read that book let alone understand it or get any serious amount of time of use out of it?

The question almost suggests that you are at (or past?) the stage where you are or will get much use out of the current version.

Who's to say that given the publishers track record thus far that they will get around to publishing another (or the next - 24th.) edition by 2075 anyway?

Hang in there YOD!!!

lazlo
05-31-2010, 12:19 PM
There will be sections on nanotechnology, Selective Laser Sintering, other forms of 3-D prototyping and multi-axis multi-beam laser machining.

And a chapter dedicated to manual machining, one or two charts on speed/feeds... just for for historical comparison.

Perfect synopsis. I'd add parts sold/distributed by "Universal G-Code" that runs on turnkey CNC systems.

Model Engineering will have been long extinct. The average age at NAMES, Harrogate (and here) is ~ 60...

Liger Zero
05-31-2010, 12:23 PM
Perfect synopsis. I'd add parts sold/distributed by "Universal G-Code" that runs on turnkey CNC systems.

Model Engineering will have been long extinct. The average age at NAMES, Harrogate (and here) is ~ 60...


I doubt it. Model making will continue in all it's forms. There will always those of us who derive pleasure from making tiny working scale models out of brass and steel.

And I also highly doubt that manual machining will ever die out. There are too many situations where you don't need/want to program a CNC mill just to make one or two parts... and CNC sucks for one-off "repair jobs."

It'll be a specialty art like Blacksmithing is now, but it'll never be totally gone.

lazlo
05-31-2010, 12:42 PM
I doubt it. Model making will continue in all it's forms. There will always those of us who derive pleasure from making tiny working scale models out of brass and steel.

Some, but it's a quickly dwindling crowd...

Judging by the show photos, you don't seem many young folks at NAMES and Harrogate:

Harrogate:
http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/8/3/3/6/a3245787-52-DSCF3287.jpg?d=1274029773

NAMES:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4565602089_c1722657c9_o.jpg



It'll be a specialty art like Blacksmithing is now, but it'll never be totally gone.

By coincidence, I'm starting a semester blacksmithing class at ACC tomorrow. Like you say, it's turned into a niche art-form. Should be interesting... :)

Evan
05-31-2010, 12:48 PM
Remember Star Trek and the matter replicator?

"Computer, I'd like ten quarter by twenty thread per inch socket head cap screws."

"Yes sir. What finish would you like?"

"Something corrosion resistant. Platinum will do. Make them 7 threads long."

. . . clinkety clink, clink.

Liger Zero
05-31-2010, 01:00 PM
I can pop a damaged shaft in a lathe, set everything up and actually repair the shaft in less time than it takes to boot up the computer and set the lathe to manual.

Same thing with certain one-two off parts. I can stick a piece of Delrin in the lathe, get my tools set, and make the part in less time than it takes to draw, convert and drip-feed the program to the machine.

Same thing with the mill. Yesterday I fixed a lawnmower part for a friend. Bolt broke off in a part. Set it in the vice, milled it out, tapped it by hand and handed it back to him in less time than it takes to explain.

Can't do that with CNC... well you can it takes longer and would actually require me to charge for the service. In this case I have an invite to his BBQ tonight. :D

Liger Zero
05-31-2010, 01:02 PM
Remember Star Trek and the matter replicator?

"Computer, I'd like ten quarter by twenty thread per inch socket head cap screws."

"Yes sir. What finish would you like?"

"Something corrosion resistant. Platinum will do. Make them 7 threads long."

. . . clinkety clink, clink.

Not in 2075. 2175... maybe. It'll be like SLS and 3D prototyping is today. We won't see it in our lifetime.

KiddZimaHater
05-31-2010, 01:20 PM
I think EVAN's on the right track.
In 2075, most machines will probably be voice-command, or even thought-command via implanted microchip thought processing?
No more pounding out G-codes, or calculating feeds and speeds.
Kids in 2075 will say, "G-codes, Feeds & Speeds....What's THAAAAT?"
In 2075, just tell the machine what the material is, what the program number is, and off it goes.
By then they'll probably have 3D Holographic modeling as well.
Just think of how far computers, CNC, and tecnology in general has come in the past 30 years. Imagine the next 65 years? :eek:

MichaelP
05-31-2010, 01:31 PM
"Computer, I'd like ten quarter by twenty thread per inch socket head cap screws."


"Computer, what does word "screw" mean?"

sansbury
05-31-2010, 02:47 PM
My guess is that the big change will be in the materials themselves. TiAlN-coated carbide tooling would appear almost magical to a late 19th-century machinist. If we ever find a way to manufacture large-scale objects using something like carbon nanotubes, that will change everything. Iron and steel may come to be seen as archaic as granite and marble.

In technological terms, I think globalization has led to a lot of stagnation in terms of production processes. Technology advances when labor becomes costly. As China advances, we will need to find new efficiencies in the use of resources including manpower. Faster computing will allow for more sophisticated forms of automation. Repair shops may become common again.

Conversely, if nano-assembly turns out to be workable in a serious way (I have serious doubts), then everything we know goes out the window.

dp
05-31-2010, 03:09 PM
I think the Machinerys Handbook will have a large section on how to make lubricants from nuts, the petrochemical industry having been shut down in the fallout from the BP oil still of 2010.

Your Old Dog
05-31-2010, 04:17 PM
I don't know but I'm thinking 2075 issue will have formulas in there for making Chinese rubber products stay pliable and not stink to high heaven.

I also feel oxygen cylinders will be made from materials strong enough to stop the Limeys from cutting them up with bandsaws. You'll need the Machinist Handbook to figure out how to hack one open.

I think they'll drop the miniature print version as no one will have a toolbox drawer to put one in anymore. Likely it'll just exist either online or on a chip. The paper used to print the book will know be used to make cars in the far East.

I think knurling will take up more and more of the manuals as time progresses.

Deja Vu
05-31-2010, 04:37 PM
At times, the way things seem to be going, we'll be lucky if there is a print shop able to be contracted for reprint. We'll be going through our personal libraries trying to figure out how to repair the machines so that it can make something from that now precious bin of metals. That is, unless it has already been confiscated by authorities to help the "cause". Power outages interfere with our work. Those of us with generators have little fuel for it's use on anything not deemed critical for survival. Of course, the internet is no longer available.:D

...on the other hand.... The handbook is reduced in price and has saturated the thriving populace for every household as they all contain self-reliant machines.

loose nut
05-31-2010, 08:36 PM
Your all wrong!

Long before then the population will reach the breaking point civilization, as we know it, will have collapsed and things like computers will have been long broken down. So keep your manual machines so you will at least be able to make weapons to drive off the rampaging gangs. Better pick up that copy off Machinery ...

oldtiffie
05-31-2010, 08:55 PM
I expect that as the ladies will have taken over the HSM shops and that like Alice, the blokes will be poking and prying - as they do, and as they shouldn't - and will have stepped through the looking glass:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass

into the fourth dimension:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_dimension

will - as usual - have got themselves into more strife than they can handle, and again, as usual, they will have to get the girls to rescue them from their own insolence and stupidity and she will put him in "Naughty Corner" with a pile of "Noddy" books:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(character)

including "Noddy Goes to Toyland"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Noddy_Goes_To_Toyland_1949_cover.jpg

and he is totally immersed and captivated as his HSM shop is his toyland and the Noddy series is compiled into a single book and published as "Machinist Manual" and/or "Machinery's Handbook" and the publishers (in China) make another killing.

Noddy's (our intrepid HSM-er) "mum" (his wife and carer) makes Noddy wear boxing gloves to save his eye-sight and to stop doing himself a "damage".

And that is in 2011 - latest.

I don't even want to contemplate our hero (Noddy the HSM-er) in 2075 - or the latest version of his "join the dots and colour-in" "machining" book/s.

Evan
05-31-2010, 09:09 PM
Long before then the population will reach the breaking point civilization, as we know it, will have collapsed and things like computers will have been long broken down. So keep your manual machines so you will at least be able to make weapons to drive off the rampaging gangs. Better pick up that copy off Machinery ...


You been watching too many Dark Angel reruns. Not that I blame you... Beats Mad Max. :D

http://ixian.ca/pics7/ja.jpg

macona
05-31-2010, 10:44 PM
Your all wrong!

So keep your manual machines so you will at least be able to make weapons to drive off the rampaging gangs.

Or rule over them... muhahahaha...

Teenage_Machinist
06-01-2010, 12:30 AM
Clearly, I need to go to Names and represent my generation.


I definately expect manual machining to drop in importance.


Would not be surprised if in 2075 it was unusual. I doubt that it would become a lost art for a very long time. Unless something weird happens (quite possible), I would expect people to know how to do it, and do it, for hundreds of years even if they are just using the jog dial.

It will be in 3d PDF file.

The pictures will all be rotatable.

All the files will be TiAlN coated and all the end mills will be made of some ultrananocomposite that sharpens itself.

People will make quaint old models of Intel Core 2 Duo, the first nano-chip, in their basement.

The Artful Bodger
06-01-2010, 12:35 AM
There will be a section for real old timers on how to make stuff in something called 'metal'.

oldtiffie
06-01-2010, 01:49 AM
You mean an alchemist?


Alchemy, derived from the Arabic word al-kimia (الكيمياء), is both a philosophy and an ancient practice focused on the attempt to change base metals into gold, investigating the preparation of the "elixir of longevity", and achieving ultimate wisdom, involving the improvement of the alchemist as well as the making of several substances described as possessing unusual properties.

Sounds like a HSM-er to me.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemist

It can't be me as all I do is turn good metal into base (aka $hit).

Teenage_Machinist
06-01-2010, 02:05 AM
Actualy, can one get TiN coated files? Seems thy would last longer, as they are not really resharpenable.

oldtiffie
06-01-2010, 02:20 AM
TM.

If you can get tin-coated people you should be able to get tin-coated files.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Tin_Woodman.png/200px-Tin_Woodman.png

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Man_(Oz)

and:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Wizard_title_page.jpg/200px-Wizard_title_page.jpg

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz

macona
06-01-2010, 02:33 AM
Actualy, can one get TiN coated files? Seems thy would last longer, as they are not really resharpenable.

You can use acid to sharpen files. Also letting them rust will sharpen them as well. Never use the steel side of file cards. They damage the files more than anything else, use a piece of hardwood to clean the file. Also load the file with soapstone, it will help keep the file from loading up.

fixerdave
06-01-2010, 04:21 AM
In 2075... engineers will not be telling machines what to do... they will describe the problem and the machine will synthetically evolve the best solution. Professional engineers will be experts in modelling problems, not creating solutions to them. Students will be taught how to widen the scope of their problems such that the computers have the most leeway to come up with novel solutions. Materials, processes, math... will all be irrelevant. The computers will take the model, the problem, and try out some stupidly-high number of solutions, mating promising solutions together, until the optimal answer to the problem is determined. No intelligence required; just brute-force evolution at hyper-speed. Parts will be turned out on CNC lines... maybe a few human smucks will get jobs bolting the stuff together, maybe.

The rest of us will all be using stuff that we have no idea how or even why it works. It will just be cheaper and better than any old-fashioned engineer could ever come up with. That is, if the machines will still be listening to us at all.

As for the book... Book? Chapters? Headings? Index? If you want to know something, ask the computer and it will figure out the context and give you the answer. Excluding narrative works, there will only be one "book"... the book of all knowledge, the one book, everything there is to know. It will just be fed to you in the way that's best for you to learn what you need to know (according to the computers).

Then again... after just finishing reading 80 pages worth of posts on shop-made tools... there might be hope for us yet :)

lazlo
06-01-2010, 10:06 AM
Clearly, I need to go to Names and represent my generation.

Indeed! You would be presumed to be the Grand-child of one of the exhibitors :)

I've mentioned before that you, Fastrack and ToastyDeath (when he was around) were the only young people on a board with 10,000 members. Stay safe! :D

Evan
06-01-2010, 11:58 AM
In 2075... engineers will not be telling machines what to do... they will describe the problem and the machine will synthetically evolve the best solution.

I suspect that won't be very popular although someone is going to try to make it work. When I taught at the local community college back in the early 80's they would give us (the instructors) various uprgrading courses to improve our teaching skills. In one particular class the object was to improve our ability to clearly and accurately describe something so that the listeners would form an accurate "mind's eye" image of the item.

The training drill was for each instructor to stand before the class and describe to the class how to draw a small collection of regular geometric shapes on a piece of standard writing paper. The objective was for the class to draw the same thing as what the instructor was looking at on his sheet. It was perhaps a square in the upper left corner with a triangle below it that might have a vertex situated at the centre of the square. Very few of the instructors were able to do a credible job of it. I however found it very easy as did the other instructors when they drew what I explained. The course monitor asked me where I had learned this skill. I had to think a minute but then realized it was from years of describing to my Xerox customers where a variety of sere situated and how to determine the condition of the machine by open this and closing that and pushing this button before that button etc.

Very few people have any skill at this. There are too many details that must be conveyed even when the task seems to be simple.

Alistair Hosie
06-01-2010, 06:27 PM
I thought you already had such a machine Evan!!! Alistair

wierdscience
06-01-2010, 08:29 PM
No need to even write the book,within two generations human kind will be too stupid to reproduce itself let alone anything in metal.

fixerdave
06-02-2010, 12:33 AM
... In one particular class the object was to improve our ability to clearly and accurately describe something so that the listeners would form an accurate "mind's eye" image of the item...

Very few people have any skill at this. There are too many details that must be conveyed even when the task seems to be simple.

Yes... I totally suck at this, absolutely hate doing telephone support because of it. I can't picture anything and often wondered what people were talking about with all that "mind's eye" stuff. Then, I realised that not everyone thinks the same way... and I started asking. It seems that most people think in a mix of pictures and concepts, quite a few almost totally in pictures, and then there's a few people like me that are total-concept thinkers. According to my musician-brother, people can think in music too. I can't even imagine what that's like.

I suspect you are a picture-thinker, and this is likely a very good approach for machinists. Me, I have to sketch, and sketch, and sketch until I get my conceptual ideas into something that might work in the real world. Then again, programming comes natural to me - after I got past the picture-thinking instructors that wanted useless-to-me flow-charts. I wonder how professional or accomplished amateur (which I'm neither) machinists break down on the picture to concept thinking spectrum. My guess would be a strong bias to picture.

But, anyway, putting this back on subject... by "define the problem" I mean something more like: "Computer, I need a bridge. It has to span..., it has to carry... it needs 4 lanes of traffic, the constraints to constructing it are... and it must be optimised for cost instead of construction time." When the computer comes back with the design, I suspect it won't look like anything an engineer would ever think of, yet it will be perfectly functional and cost less to build. Of course, it will probably look so weird that no one will be willing to drive across it.

lazlo
06-02-2010, 12:47 AM
No need to even write the book,within two generations human kind will be too stupid to reproduce itself let alone anything in metal.

Unfortunately, that's the one thing morons do well -- procreate. We're inversely selecting the human race :)

Ken_Shea
06-02-2010, 12:59 AM
No need to even write the book,within two generations human kind will be too stupid to reproduce itself let alone anything in metal.

ha-ha-ha
It's sure got a good start and building momentum, besides, it's all irrelevant, the world is going to come to an end in 2012.

dp
06-02-2010, 01:12 AM
Unfortunately, that's the one thing morons do well -- procreate. We're inversely selecting the human race :)

Bill Gates got rich because he alone realized that stupid people had money.

fixerdave
06-02-2010, 02:18 AM
Unfortunately, that's the one thing morons do well -- procreate. We're inversely selecting the human race :)

Not much in the way of selection going on, not while the population is still expanding. A little drift, this way and that, some random, some not, but no real selection. Now, if the world really does go to pot in 2012, then maybe the smart engineering types will survive long enough to breed. But, honestly, it doesn't really matter how many stupid people breed before then - there's just more to die, more variation to choose from.

Put it this way... right now, there is some smaller percentage of the population that could read a Machineries Handbook. Double the population with morons, and the percentage will halve - but there's still the same number of people that can read it. Now, per chance, if something nasty happened and if there was actually something in that book that could save a person's life, then selection would be towards engineers. It doesn't matter if 6 or 8 billion non-engineers die otherwise. Let 'em breed; they might make good eating.

BobWarfield
06-02-2010, 10:18 AM
Bill Gates got rich because he alone realized that stupid people had money.

...and no taste and a desire to buy the cheapest solution available despite whatever flaws it might have.

Hey wait, is Gates behind the invasion of cheap import machine tools too?

Cheers,

BW

lazlo
06-02-2010, 12:04 PM
...and no taste and a desire to buy the cheapest solution available despite whatever flaws it might have.

Hey wait, is Gates behind the invasion of cheap import machine tools too?

LOL! That's classic Bob! :)

oldtiffie
06-02-2010, 12:15 PM
The heading of the OP is: "The new Machinist Manual for 2075, what info might it contain?"

The text of the OP is:

These books don't update a lot from issue to issue so I'm trying to decide if I should upgrade my 24th edition or wait until the year 2075 to be really currant. What might we be dealing with in 2075? Will it be in English or Chinese? :D

This pre-supposes that there will be a 2075 edition.

Assuming that to be the case, I think it highly likely that "The new Machinist Manual for 2075" will contain:

"Printed: 2075"