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Elninio
06-06-2010, 12:09 AM
I was having a conversation about asian import lathes with a friend today; we were discussing the disadvantages of chinese machines and he brought up an example about how chinese lathes are just ripoffs of german technology, and how they even copied the mistakes from the german designs (at least as far as small lathes are concerned). The example he gave was the two sticks that are on cross-slide dial (picture: http://www.bedair.org/Grizzly12x/LATHE1.JPG). Can anyone tell me more about this history?

914Wilhelm
06-06-2010, 12:55 AM
U linky is stinky!

Evan
06-06-2010, 01:08 AM
http://www.bedair.org/Grizzly12x/LATHE1.JPG

tdmidget
06-06-2010, 01:22 AM
What "sticks"?

Jim Shaper
06-06-2010, 01:28 AM
The only thing I can think of is he's talking about the dual pegs on the compound hand wheel. I wouldn't call those a mistake (they help you control the feed via positive grip). :rolleyes:

tdmidget
06-06-2010, 01:38 AM
Most folks call them crank handles. I find them on lathes from all over. Look at Colchesters, Harrisons, and I'm sure others. Not sure how he concluded that:
1. They are "sticks"
2. They are a mistake
3. They are German
Elninio, It's late, that **** will wear off by morning, try then and see if they are a mistake. Hope neither of you are driving tonite.

MuellerNick
06-06-2010, 02:04 AM
It's not a bug, it's a feature!
Don't know if this is a German invention. If it is crap, not German, if it is brilliant, it is German (I'm German, so I'm not biased at all! :D )

At least, I find them very convinient. It has to do with the way you crank the handle. If you do it with one hand, one stick is superfluos (SP). But if you do the cranking with both hands as you are supposed to do for fine and consistent feed, they are very helpful.

Nick

joegib
06-06-2010, 03:51 AM
Well, if we can stretch the OP's query to cover 'Germanic' as well as German products, an Austrian EMCO lathe may be a case in point. Some time after I got into model engineering, the Chinese 918/920 lathes started appearing in the UK. Despite some obvious deficiencies somewhat rough finish, relatively light construction, no backgear and no tumbler gear I rather liked the look of these lathes. The one feature that really turned me off, however, was the V-form leadscrew thread. Even I, in my ignorance, knew that a leadscrew ought to have an Acme or Trapezoidal thread. It struck me as odd that the Chinese makers had gone to the trouble of providing a half-Norton gearbox yet provided a leadscrew looking like a length of steel studding.

I later learned that the 918/920 range were basically copies of the EMCO Compact 8 lathe. What astonished me, though, on reading the Lathes UK entry here:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/emco/page2.html

was that a V-form threaded leadscew was actually a feature of the original Compact 8. Tony Griffiths says "As an economy measure, instead of the proper Acme thread usually found on leadscrews, that on the Compact 8 employed an ordinary 60-degree metric type".

This sounds like a replicated 'mistake' to me.

Joe

Peter.
06-06-2010, 05:17 AM
I always understood that the use of two handles was to balance the handwheel.

MuellerNick
06-06-2010, 05:38 AM
The Austrians! Poor country, often gets confused with the Australians and tourists from the USA ask where they finally can see a kanguro. :D

My original EMCO Compact 8 has an ACME leadscrew. But IIRC, the cross slide and the top slide do have some fine pitch metric screw.

Nick

Circlip
06-06-2010, 05:55 AM
The Emco was probably the original point of discussion, Germany, Austria no difference to some :rolleyes: (and yep, mines a V10)

Regards Ian.

.RC.
06-06-2010, 06:10 AM
Off topic, but I always thought an adjustable speed motor attached to that wheel would make the top slide much better for taper turning... I can never turn the wheels at a constant enough speed to get a good finish...

AiR_GuNNeR
06-06-2010, 07:54 AM
My thought on the dual handles is that with the wheel being as small as it is, it's pretty tough to get any torque using a single handle. With two, I normally turn the cross slide handle with my thumb and forefinger.

aboard_epsilon
06-06-2010, 08:14 AM
Most of the smart and brown lathes have them ..and some of the designs date back to the war .

1024 roundhead like mine


http://www.lathes.co.uk/smartbrown/img41.gif

A.K. Boomer
06-06-2010, 08:18 AM
Generally seen on smaller wheels the idea isn't stupid at all and like most have stated a way to gain fine tuning ---- what hasn't been mentioned is that generally you will also see one handle protrusion a little longer than the other, what this does is still allow you the advantage of quick spinning out or in, that is if your smart enough to just grab the end of the longer handle:p

PixMan
06-06-2010, 08:42 AM
I have those on the Taiwanese Victor lathe, and find them to be quite useful. They afford much better control and more force to be applied to the compound slide.

I've used lathes that had them, and some lathes that didn't. I'd rather have them, no question.

RobbieKnobbie
06-06-2010, 09:30 AM
While I don't put it past the chinese to copy a design, mistakes and all, in this case I agree with Mr Boomer. The two handle design, with one longer than the other, is a clever bit of engineering and facilitates good control.

Now, the head oil drain plug directly the drive belts, that's a different story...

Duffy
06-06-2010, 09:37 AM
My Standard Modern has them. I find that, with oily hands, if you place the thumb under one "stick," and the index finger over the other, you can exert more torque, under better control, than if you were cranking on such a dinky moment arm with only one "stick."
As far as v-form vs acme-form threads, where in the Good Book does it say "though shalt have no other threads than Acme threads?" Pratt and Whitney precision lathes use a v-form with ball bearings each end. It seems to me that the object is controlled, repeatable, translation of linear motion. We can debate all day whether one is better or worse, or lasts longer,or is less suseptible to dirt, or is easier to manufacture or is cheaper,etc, but AT THE END OF THE DAY, they all do the job!

KiddZimaHater
06-06-2010, 10:54 AM
I don't know what he's talking about.
I see 17 'sticks' on that lathe. :D
.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8440/lathe1.jpg

BobWarfield
06-06-2010, 11:17 AM
Dang Zima, you find that pic or just have a lot of time on your hands?

Go make some chips, dude!

LOL,

BW

RobbieKnobbie
06-06-2010, 11:32 AM
Mr. Hater, I believe we're discussing stick numbers 8 and 9.

Mike of the North
06-06-2010, 11:35 AM
Some of the machinist I worked with would use a lump of clay to hold a pin to line up lay out lines when setting up jobs, when thy were not using it thy stuck it on the side of the head,when one of the first Bridgeport clones came out the head casting had a lump of clay cast into the head.

Black_Moons
06-06-2010, 12:59 PM
I like the dual handles on my 12x36 compound, its just too small to rotate using one handle, you almost never have to 'rapid' it, most of the time I use one hand sorta grabing both handles to turn it, and then when doing a continious feed I use my left hand to grab the dial itself to keep it smoothly rotating while I flip my right hand around 150~ degrees to grab it again.

gwilson
06-06-2010, 02:29 PM
The Brits call the clay and pin a "sticky pin".

Paul Alciatore
06-06-2010, 02:41 PM
I was having a conversation about asian import lathes with a friend today; we were discussing the disadvantages of chinese machines and he brought up an example about how chinese lathes are just ripoffs of german technology, and how they even copied the mistakes from the german designs (at least as far as small lathes are concerned). The example he gave was the two sticks that are on cross-slide dial (picture: http://www.bedair.org/Grizzly12x/LATHE1.JPG). Can anyone tell me more about this history?

I'm confused. He said the "cross slide" not the compound slide.

quasi
06-06-2010, 03:26 PM
I have always had the impression that the Chinese 13" lathes were Harrison copy's, nothing German about them.

The Artful Bodger
06-06-2010, 04:41 PM
Some of the machinist I worked with would use a lump of clay to hold a pin to line up lay out lines when setting up jobs, when thy were not using it thy stuck it on the side of the head,when one of the first Bridgeport clones came out the head casting had a lump of clay cast into the head.

The very first cars were made in Europe, by Benz and others, sometimes they would have a flat tyre. When Henry Ford cloned their work the first Model T's off the line all had a flat tyre.:D

gnm109
06-06-2010, 05:27 PM
Goodness. Surely the OP can find some other feature with greater fault than the Chinese Lathe company supplying an extra "stick". If it offends the unsuspecting buyer, couldn't one of the extra sticks simply be removed?

By the way, I guess I got a really great lathe. My 13X140 Enco has only one stick on the cross slide and compound but a they added a nice counterweight to make up for it. I guess it's perfect.



http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/gnm109/MachinesE-1.jpg

MotorradMike
06-06-2010, 05:32 PM
The Austrians! Poor country, often gets confused with the Australians and tourists from the USA ask where they finally can see a kanguro. :D

My original EMCO Compact 8 has an ACME leadscrew. But IIRC, the cross slide and the top slide do have some fine pitch metric screw.

Nick

I would love to see a kanguro.
Got a picture?

aboard_epsilon
06-06-2010, 05:45 PM
what's a kangeroot
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
ll
l
a Scottish man locked in a toilet . :D

all the best.mark

Mark McGrath
06-06-2010, 06:14 PM
what's a kangeroot

l
a Scottish man locked in a toilet . :D

all the best.mark

Don`t give up the day job.

Mark.

John Stevenson
06-06-2010, 06:24 PM
I would love to see a kanguro.
Got a picture?

Must be a German one then, they use Euro's

lazlo
06-06-2010, 08:52 PM
an Austrian EMCO lathe may be a case in point. Some time after I got into model engineering, the Chinese 918/920 lathes started appearing in the UK. Despite some obvious deficiencies somewhat rough finish, relatively light construction, no backgear and no tumbler gear

That's probably the story the original poster was thinking of -- the Emco 8 didn't have a backgear or reverse tumbler either -- the Chinese copied it as the infamous 9x20, lock, stock and barrel.

J Tiers
06-06-2010, 10:11 PM
That's probably the story the original poster was thinking of -- the Emco 8 didn't have a backgear or reverse tumbler either -- the Chinese copied it as the infamous 9x20, lock, stock and barrel.

I thought the EMCO version was a smaller swing....That's what I remember of them, but it's been a while...... or did they have both?

lakeside53
06-06-2010, 10:41 PM
The Emco was an 8... the 9x was jacked up.

RancherBill
06-06-2010, 10:46 PM
........The example he gave was the two sticks that are on cross-slide dial .....

Half full / half empty


:eek: He's being doing it wrong for so long he thinks he's doing it right. :eek: :D :D

J Tiers
06-06-2010, 10:59 PM
Dunno about the lathes......

But when the chinese copied our electronic products, they even copied the logo of the US PWB etching company when they copied the board layouts.... And, of course, OUR company name and address.

If there were any "mistakes" they sure enough copied them too.

They were very thorough, but they used 'equivalent" asian parts..... Still, it was such an exact copy that we would have been hard-pressed to prove in court that we did not make it in our factory

joegib
06-07-2010, 03:44 AM
As far as v-form vs acme-form threads, where in the Good Book does it say "though shalt have no other threads than Acme threads?" Pratt and Whitney precision lathes use a v-form with ball bearings each end. It seems to me that the object is controlled, repeatable, translation of linear motion. We can debate all day whether one is better or worse, or lasts longer,or is less suseptible to dirt, or is easier to manufacture or is cheaper,etc, but AT THE END OF THE DAY, they all do the job!

Well, if I'd been assessing a Pratt & Whitney machine I'd surely have given a manufacturer of that repute the benefit of the doubt. As it was I was looking at a Chinese machine of (then) unknown provenance having a feature the V-form leadscrew that seemed a departure from the 'best practice' generally applied by other manufacturers. Was that design decision the result of a finely-honed judgment of engineering 'fitness for purpose' (a la P & W)? Nah, in my ignorance I decided that cheapness of manufacture was the motive. I may have got that wrong the Chinese guy's decision may have been purely imitative. But I take some comfort from the fact that Tony Griffiths made the same judgment cheapness about the Austrian original.

Joe

gnm109
06-07-2010, 10:43 AM
I suspect that an Acme or similar thread is more durable than a V-form but I'm not certain. I don't think that a V-form would necessarily be a poor design but there must be a reason it never became the norm like Acme theads did.

saltmine
06-07-2010, 10:51 AM
Long before the Chinese had the capacity to copy anything (they were still using horses for Calvary mounts, and swords for weapons) The Japanese decided to get into the manufacturing business by copying desirable products for the American consumers.

I honestly think the Americans helped, but won't admit it.

A small automobile company in Japan made military vehicles during World War two. Originally named Nissan, they started out in the automotive industry building "nut & bolt" copies of English cars.

I was just a kid when they started importing heavily into the US. Small, four cylinder sedans that looked remarkably like a cross between a '52 Chevy and a Wartburg sedan. One of my first jobs as a mechanic's helper was to remove the engines from the newly named "Datsun" Fair Lady sports car, and replace the crankshafts. It seemed that during the process of copying the Morris Garage engine, one of the drawings got turned over (or reversed) and the oil retaining spiral groove in the rear of the crankshaft got cut backward.

Instead of forcing the oil back into the crankcase, it pumped copious quantities of oil out the back, all over the clutch. My job was to replace the defective crankshafts with newly machined cranks with the spiral cut in the correct direction.

The Datsun engine even had copied carburetors, that actually leaked exactly like the ones on early MGB sports cars. (amazing! They even copied the fuel leaks)
We never had a problem with parts. If I needed a specific main bearing or shim, we just called the auto parts store, told them it was for an MG, and they delivered it. (we could actually get MG parts quicker than we could get Datsun parts, in the beginning)

Later on, I heard a story about the Toyota Land Cruiser. During the war, the Japanese Army discovered a Chevrolet bomb handling truck, still operational, but abandoned on an island they had captured. The truck was disassembled, and shipped back to Japan. Japanese engineers copied it, and built a "patrol & scout vehicle" which became the Toyota Land Cruiser after the war.

Tasked with the job of replacing a headgasket on one, the work became stalled due to the fact that Toyota parts were hard to get, and usually took months to get if ordered from Japan. I improvised and bought a "Fel-Pro" gasket set for a GMC six-cylinder truck engine, from the late '40's. Everything fit perfectly. Soon the shop I worked in became well known as the "go to" guys for Japanese car and truck repair....especially if you needed the car...now.

TGTool
06-07-2010, 10:59 AM
I suspect that an Acme or similar thread is more durable than a V-form but I'm not certain. I don't think that a V-form would necessarily be a poor design but there must be a reason is never became the norm like Acme theads did.

An obvious advantage of acme threads for the leadscrew is that the cutting force putting drag on the carriage has less tendancy to force the half nuts apart. The 60 degree thread could act like a cam.

Stories of asian copies of products faithfully duplicating mistakes probably abound in every industry. I remember hearing 25 years ago when I worked for Square D that the Chinese had copied one of our high volume breakers and had carefully put core pins in to duplicate ejector pin marks. Of course they had their own ejector pins in various other places. Apocryphal? Probably. I never saw an actual molded part to verify it.

Ries
06-07-2010, 11:01 AM
Nissan actually began in 1911, and by 1914 was building cars of "their own design".
Now, certainly, they copied many other automotive builders, but its not true that they always exclusively copied american or british builders slavishly.

the 30's Nissans were based on USA Grahams, as they bought the designs, rights, and tooling from Graham-Paige.

http://www.nissan-global.com/GCC/Japan/History/history/index-e.html

And just copying is certainly a quick way to learn how to build something.
It seems to have worked for Nissan- my old 92 300ZX did not owe anything to an MG, I can assure you of that- it routinely beat euro and US muscle cars in speed, handling, and technology, at a fraction of the price...

Anyway- the chinese do copy things.
But, more and more, they are advancing to build things from scratch.
The 9x20 lathe is probably the worst place to look for quality and innovation in Chinese lathes- its strictly a built to a price point commodity.

Currently, the chinese have more Meehanite foundries than the entire USA, and when you are willing to pay the price, their higher end lathes, and other machine tools, are approaching quality. Certainly, they are not at Monarch 10EE or American Pacemaker levels yet, but they do make MUCH better machines than 9x20's.

They make pretty reputable Deckel copies, Gear Head drill presses, Oil Country lathes bigger than your house, CNC punch presses, and many other very sophisticated machines, and many are starting to feature actual chinese designed improvements.
The chinese are graduating hundreds of thousands of engineers every year- not every one of them is incompetent.

As Satchell Paige used to say- "Dont look back- they might be gaining on you".

willmac
06-07-2010, 11:01 AM
You are being a bit hard on Nissan/Datsun. As I understand the story, they licensed the engine design from Austin, so although it might be a copy, it was an officially sanctioned copy.

Daddyjack
06-07-2010, 11:26 AM
I just went and looked at the old Monarch Model A circa 1920. Just as I thought there are 2 "sticks" on the compound. Very helpful when making fine adjustments. To add to the OT part of this thread I remember seeing something on TV about the Russians duplicating a B29 right down to individual nuts and bolts. Thought that was a little much. Best Regards, Jack

S_J_H
06-07-2010, 02:06 PM
The example he gave was the two sticks that are on cross-slide dial (picture: http://www.bedair.org/Grizzly12x/LATHE1.JPG). Can anyone tell me more about this history?

My old Artisan around 100 years old made in Cincinatt Ohio USA, has dual handles on all the handwheels including the tail stock not shown in the pic-http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/vintage%20Artisan%20lathe/artisan2ndway001.jpg

saltmine
06-07-2010, 03:22 PM
Quite true that the Russians copied the B-29 bolt for bolt. They also copied the Douglas DC-3 (C-47). Interesting story with the B-29, it was considered to have been "cutting edge" technology when several crews became lost and landed at Russian air bases. The Russians locked the crews up, accusing them of being spys (who couldn't have seen that coming?). The US asked for the return of the planes and crews, but the Russians claimed the bombers were discarded and scrapped. Eventually, the US servicemen were released, and the Russians popped up with a "new" Tupolev bomber....which, by the way, was eventually fitted with turboprop engines due to the fact that the Russian engineers were unable to duplicate the plane's engines correctly.

When the US built airstrips in China, to support B-29 raids on Japan, they left behind a couple of crawler tractors. Model 1911 Caterpillar gas engined tractors. The Chinese set up a factory (called the "Red Tractor Factory") and produced copies of that tractor.....to this very day. If you look at the back of the seat on the tractor,they still have the undulating "Caterpillar" logo of CAT.

saltmine
06-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Speaking of copies;

I once worked on a Japanese motorcycle (Marusho Sport 100 (Lillac) that was a bolt-for-bolt copy of a BMW motorcycle (boxer flat twin)

gnm109
06-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Speaking of copies;

I once worked on a Japanese motorcycle (Marusho Sport 100 (Lillac) that was a bolt-for-bolt copy of a BMW motorcycle (boxer flat twin)


The 2043 Harley-Davidson XA Military experimental motorcycle was a copy of the 1937 BMW flathead. The Urals and Dnepr's with sidecars are BMW copies as well.

The Artful Bodger
06-07-2010, 04:36 PM
Speaking of copies;

I once worked on a Japanese motorcycle (Marusho Sport 100 (Lillac) that was a bolt-for-bolt copy of a BMW motorcycle (boxer flat twin)

Thats interesting, I wonder what my Douglas, boxer flat twin too, was a copy of.:cool:

M.I. Twice
06-08-2010, 08:42 PM
I have a china built lathe it is for most part a rough design and for having a 3/4 horse motor to drive a 9" x 19" Craftex lathe with a 5mm belt, which I could snap without blinking. Very much under designed. I have redesigned the drive train rebuilding the belts to 3/8" which has much improved the lathe.

4GSR
06-08-2010, 10:01 PM
On one of my trips to China, I visited a factory that had a hugh double column planer that was a exact copy of an Cincinattia planer from the States! But with Chinese writing!:eek:

Ken

hitnmiss
06-09-2010, 10:13 AM
I have a feeler lathe that is a Tiawan copy of a Hardinge HLV. I had a machinist friend over to check it out, who ran Hardinge HLV's for years.

Every now and then the power feed motor squeels a bit and he lauged... He said they must have copied it so close because every Hardinge he's ran squeels the same way.

A.K. Boomer
06-09-2010, 11:07 AM
Goodness. Surely the OP can find some other feature with greater fault than the Chinese Lathe company supplying an extra "stick". If it offends the unsuspecting buyer, couldn't one of the extra sticks simply be removed?

By the way, I guess I got a really great lathe. My 13X140 Enco has only one stick on the cross slide and compound but a they added a nice counterweight to make up for it. I guess it's perfect.



http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/gnm109/MachinesE-1.jpg



In my opinion your handles are up there with the best designs - they allow for rapid in/outs without getting in the way yet you do have the ability to bridge the two opposing features to fine tune.
Full circle handles that have a hand lever on one end and a ball protruding on the other are pretty tough to beat also...