View Full Version : Need to build or buy 90 degree 180hp drive, help..

09-22-2003, 08:46 AM
Well.. It is stuck.. Mentally and physically. I am building a pontiac Quad4 motorcycle, Did the sketches, got the springer front end, Got the 6 speed harley transmission, Wheels, Now the 90 degree drive has me still stumped. (motor is inline, transmission is 90 degrees)

We used a boat foot on the pinto powered 3 wheeler. Can't find one I can afford.

Possibly, two pinon gears from a rear axle? the gears would have to be 45 degree. unit needs to be as small as possible, engineering the drive it needs to at least transfer 60hp. Rear drive belt specs, not mine.

HELP... Without a solution, I will have to build another Boring harley clone with the parts I have already. (been there done that)

I'll post a sketch if you can't see what I am doing..


[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 09-22-2003).]

Forrest Addy
09-22-2003, 09:45 AM
Probably have to make it. You can buy stock hardened spiral bevel gears and fabricating a housing isn't rocket science.

I wouldn't reccommend a reduction before the transmission. The engine will have so much torque there's danger of overloading the Harley input shaft.

Select 1:1 miter gears having proportions about 2/3 of the rear ends gears for the car the engine came out of. Probably 25 teeth x 5 Dp x 5" Pd.

Find a book on gearing and read up on it. Run a few numbers.

Pick taper roller bearings to support the cantilevered gear.

Too bad you can't find a hypoid miter gear set so both gears are straddle mounted on shafts that cross but don't interfere. Such a set also raises the output shaft so you can possibly gear drive the Harly transmission making a more compact package. I hate major HP timing belt drives; they're so bulky.

I suggest 1"/ft tapered keyed fits to hold the grars to the shafts. Heat the gears to 450 degrees and shink them on their cold shafts, hold them in place with a heavy bearing nut locked bearing washer.

Using the Harley clutch on the transmision? Mount the miter gearbox directly on a plate-and-ring bell housing that barely clears the rotating parts. Have the input shaft pilot in the crank bore and drive from a spider from the clutch bolts on a flywheel.

If you go about it right the miter gear drive shouldn't extend over 6" past the bell housing flange.

Be sure to arrange the bevel gears so the spirals tend to "unscrew" from motor torque like those of the hypoid gearing in an auto rear end.

V-8 powered motorcycle? Life geting tedious?

[This message has been edited by Forrest Addy (edited 09-22-2003).]

09-22-2003, 09:50 AM

No, it is the quad4 from a pontiac grandAm.. I think the V8 motorcycles are too large.. too heavy.. this one will be as light as a Indian 4 was..

Look up Dakota4 or english indian motorcycles on the web.. I found them after I started this project (about two years ago)

got any good gear links?


Ohh.. and the canadian made boss-hog transmission is $6500, more than I plan to spend..

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 09-22-2003).]

09-22-2003, 11:11 AM
I Haven't messed around with MCs for about 30 years and even then I wasn't very good. So if I'm out of line ,say so.But couldn't you convert a BMW or Moto-Guzzi rear end to serve your purpose? As I recall they're making a 90.

09-22-2003, 11:14 AM

You'll probably want to lighten the flywheel as much as possible so it doesn't flip you on the ground when it revs. Any way you could use parts from a shaft drive bike?

09-22-2003, 11:46 AM
Hi ibewgypsie,
Have you thought about an independent suspension differential (front or rear) from an imported car?
Surely a little jap 4x4 diff (or maybe an Audi 4wd rear) wouldn't weigh too much.It could be mounted above the transmission with a belt or chain to drive the transmission to help keep the oal down.
Just random thoughts,Robert.

09-22-2003, 01:14 PM
Maybe there is something to be learned from examining the drive trains of high-horsepower outboard motors. They are light and compact...

09-22-2003, 03:39 PM

Yeah, the Dakota 4 uses a bmw transmission and clutch. Works for them, but they have a better supply than I do. I looked for a while, at bmw's and goldwings. They use a air cooled volvo motor. Mine is watercooled and hi-tech.

The boat 90 degree gear drive is the best looking, lightest I have seen..


sent me a picture of a 90 degree gearbox. I asked him for specs.. He has saved my bacon before.. One of them good ole boys from out west.

09-22-2003, 08:06 PM
Quit messing with that old out of date stuff and get into the new century. Why not try hydraulics? One hydraulic motor and one pump to the shaft. You eliminate brakes,clutches and transmissons. Our commercial fishing industry has been using them for years. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

09-22-2003, 08:35 PM
What will the input speed of this gearbox be?I need to know that first,then I can figure the rest.

09-22-2003, 09:27 PM
The lil quad4 has a 8,000 rpm redline..

I know.. that is why it has the forged pistons from the factory, 4 valves per cylinder..

It costs a lot to rebuild one of these lil bitty motors cause of the high rpm parts.

I got a woodie seeing one in a oldsmobile concept car lap indy cars. It had a ducted airflow allowing variable downforce. (illegal by indy rules) but was lapping the cars with a stock motor.

Someone send me the money for the following bike.. whoo hoo , ain't it cute.. someother shop-rocket built this one thou


Sorry, I was rude not to post thier website.. No, affliation, just admiration..


[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 09-22-2003).]

09-22-2003, 10:44 PM

OK, can't wait any longer --- HOW does a 180 hp Olds lap Indy cars (concept car, ground effect, whatever) ?


09-22-2003, 11:41 PM
From what I read, by maintaining a very high speed. Yes, like hunting elephants with a 22..

It was a mid engine design, with ducting.

Can someone tell me if this is the same 16valve engine in the Saturns?

09-22-2003, 11:51 PM
I don't know; seems to me you might have a hard time keeping all the stuffing in that trans at 8,000rpm. You can get the innerds from a transaxle (front wheel drive) from a salvage yard.

These would more likely handle the RPM. Even so, I'd make sure the case or scatter band is at least 3/8" thick. At 8,000rpm, a broken gear tooth will be traveling at 200+ feet per second. Mass x Speed = BIG HOLE!

09-23-2003, 12:01 AM

I had this lil falcoon.. it blowed up the pressure plate and disc, went plum through the radio and heater, cracked the windshield. Missed my right foot by inches.

Valid point.. but remember I am a grey bearded biker, I won't wind it that tight. "I think".. I would like to harrass a local cop thou.. but then I would have to purchase the expensive tires..

09-23-2003, 02:16 AM

Here is a thought - find a trashed Honda V45 and scab the shaft drive. The Honda has an over run clutch so if you down shift too soon you will not wipe out (it free wheels the engine).

Any dink can put a gilmer or belt drive on a bike. A shaft drive Harley would be spiffy!

09-23-2003, 11:59 AM
I saw pictures of a very interesting trike a guy built. He used a 3L Ford V6 with clutch but no transmission. It is direct drive to the diff. Also no complete frame. The engine serves as part of the frame.


09-23-2003, 12:22 PM
Using a lightweight cast iron block as a load-carrying member just doesn't seem like a very good idea. Not when it would only take a couple pounds of tubing to go around the engine.

Not only is it always in gear--it's always in HIGH gear. Wouldn't that be a blast with an old Pontiac Tempest transmission and differential. Then he could have independent rear suspension in addition to the gears.

09-23-2003, 02:53 PM
I saw a local with one I was impressed with..

A Honda car, front wheel drive, cut at the door jamb. With a motorbike frame welded to where the bumper went.. I bet it took almost a whole day to build it.. He even used the Honda car headlights, hood, fenders and turn signals. A Honda Motorcycle front half with tank. Imagine looking into the rear view mirror and seeing a Honda car right on your butt thou. I hope he welded the steering sector.. maybe-maybe not seeing the rest of it.. He might be dependent on the locking steering wheel.

Was running down the road, I was impressed.. Quick, cheap, in the wind, and FUN..... Probably salvaged from a rear end collision.

You fall off a 3 wheeler, you get run over by your own vehicle first. I don't really like them for that reason, and I have rode my mobile motorcycles through 3 foot wide holes numerous times in traffic. The White line, up the emergency lanes, up next to the guard rail, All I need is 3 feet, no hospital stays, not broken bones and motorcycles. Thou, this 18 wheeler did teach me about brakes on choppers. I put a dent in that tanker with my shoulder. ALL my motorcycles have front brakes now.....

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 09-23-2003).]

09-23-2003, 07:35 PM
I'm thinking small and Japanese,rearend out of a 300Z,as I remember it is about 12"long and about 8"spline to spline,it being setup for independant suspension,you would need the cv's to make your mods.

Also,I wonder whats under a Mazda RX?

OOH,I know,an old B-210 Nissan rearend,they look like a mini Ford nine inch,chop off the housing and plate over one side,throw away the spiders and splines and replace them with a straight shaft,narrow up the other end (make it about 3"long)and presto,niffty little nine inch lookin gearbox,the little motors they put in those cars would do 7,500 plus and since 4th was straight through rpm shouldn't be a problem.

09-23-2003, 10:37 PM
I'm pretty sure the 16 valve Saturn isn't the Quad 4 engine.If it was,it would be the first engine they used form another GM product.
Are you thinking about the 510 Datsun?The B 210 had a OHV 1.4,1.5, 0r 1.6 Liter A series engine in it and I don't think it would turn anywhere near 7500 rpm.(Maybe in third gear being towed at 90mph because it couldn't pull enough air through the intake to run that fast on it's own!)
The 510 was a nice hot rod for a Jap sedan with the L series ohc and independant rear suspension.
I think I've seen that project and it looks dangerous as all you know what.As for using the engine as a stressed member of the frame,with no more weight than he is supporting that tblock is plenty stiff and strong enough I promise.Most of the 60 degree V-6's are stiffer than most V-8's by the fact they are narrower,shorter,and the block is pretty much solid under the camshaft with just a few oil drain holes in it.For their size,they are heavier than you'd expect too.
One of the locals has a trike built out of a Renault Feugo running gear with a slabsided body on it with a roof like a "Pie Wagon" (from the old model car kit of the 60's).Ugly as sin but it's his toy not mine.It was built more for parades and trailering to Daytona etc. than serious riding if I remember right.


09-24-2003, 03:59 AM

You what would be gnarly in that thing? A Suzuki Sprint Turbo engine. I think you or I could rope start it and they go like snot.

Looked at new Harleys the other day, did you know they have a webber grill that says "HD" all over it for a mere $8,000? What a deal. I'll take 4, they're small. No, really they ARE small...for 8 grand. I did like the VSRCB V-Rod - paint job sucked for a $39k bike. Looking at Indians next week.

09-24-2003, 04:06 AM
Has anyone ever built a "trike" using the front of a front wheel drive car with a single wheel in the back? Seems like it would be pretty easy if you geared the steering up so you could use the handlebars instead of a steering wheel. If you used something like a Subaru transmission and differential coupled to an upright engine, you could narrow the track to keep it from being too wide.

09-24-2003, 09:46 AM
Next week may be too late to look at Indians.
They just closed the plant.

09-24-2003, 09:57 AM

WEll.... You want a custom S&S? We have two in progress.. A older harley? we have 3. A 1964 outside oiler panhead in original showroom quality? A 75 shovelhead built by a 1 percenter club member that idles when cold? (really rare). A full blown custom? A custom trike?

The indian has the same Revtech Korean 2 year unlimited mileage transmission I have here for my Quad4 bike. That kinda proves it is not fully american made, huh?


09-24-2003, 10:28 AM
WEll.. I guess JC is right.. First I have heard..


10:49 AM PDT Monday
Indian Motorcycle Corp. shuts down

Gilroy-based Indian Motorcycle Corp., which traces its roots to the founding in 1901 of the original Indian Motorcycle Co., says it's ceased production effective immediately in order to conserve cash and preserve its assets. The company also says it's laid off its work force of nearly 400.

"These steps were taken in order to allow the board time to explore other options that would permit the company to continue as a going concern," says Frank O'Connell, chairman of the board of the privately held company, said in a statement issued Monday. "At present the company is operating with a small group of management in place and will continue to do so until a decision is made concerning Indian's future."

The company was founded five years ago, resurrecting the Indian brand which had gone out of production in 1953. It specialized in premium heavyweight motorcycles and had a network of more than 200 dealers.

"We have made tremendous progress in the last few years in rebuilding the Indian brand and we are hopeful that a way can be found to maintain the viability of the company," Mr. O'Connell says.

Its 2002 sales were estimated at Hoovers Online at $100 million. As recently as May, Indian said it had a new monthly sales record of 563 motorcycles, up 39 percent compared to the same period last year, posting the single largest percentage gain of all the major motorcycle manufacturers. Monthly unit sales were ahead of other manufacturers such as Triumph, Ducati, Victory and Aprilia.

But Indian needed another infusion of funds to continue operations and develop its 2004 line. When that failed to come together, the company decided to shut down.

© 2003 American City Business Journals Inc.

arrowWeb reprint information

steve schaeffer
09-24-2003, 02:57 PM
browning offers a 90 degree drive type sn, available with straight or spiral cut gears, the rpms only list up to 1750, but with good lube i think it could work? horsepower rating is another problem. the horsepower capacity listed in the catalog goes up as the rpms go up. i.e., @100 rpm a gearbox lists as having 6.3hp/cap. while at 1750 rpm it can handle 1930. might be worth checking a catalog. these are primarily elec motor drives, and i would imagine your engine will see 7000 rpms, so im not sure. i dont know what could be different if you built one yourself, these things have pretty massive tapered bearings in them. it think there is something else that can be done however that would be lighter, quieter and cheaper. just a thought. later

09-25-2003, 02:46 AM
I have been thinking of the S&S, six speed, and two front wheeled trike. I went to HD to kill time the other day. I would never pay that much when I can build a better one for 1/3 the price. Very sad about the Indian - maybe Honda will buy them and save it. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

I was thinking about those annular ball bearing wheels (no wheel spokes)...

I was thinking why does peanut butter taste better than just the peanuts...

I was thinking why does the ice cream truck always leave just as I grab my wallet...

I was thinking if it is called an outhouse, why doesn't it have cable tv...

BTW, Seagate 40Gb. Barricuda 7200rpm drives now come with Lindows (or not, your choice) installed (freebe) - you plug the drive into your system and it auto installs your hardware.

Ford Motor company has announced it will no long use any Microsoft Product and will only use Linux. This could be quite the delema for Dell (who has their noses burried up Bill Gates arse) as a supplier of systems to FoMoCo they will be required to pre install Linux. I love the little ironies in life... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

09-25-2003, 08:36 AM
Figured you'd want a bike-trike with magnetic coupled and full floating bearings on the wheels..

Imagine that, magnetic wave drive? No spokes chains, belts, and no real connection to the wheels. Just a rim full or magnets.

They say large magnetic fields produce intense dreams. Most alien abductions are results of natural anomolties, ball lightning, etc.

Sweet dreams, be them natural or artificially induced. I always have sweet dreams while working at power plants, (cause I have a pocket full of money)

Honda purchase Indian? Bite your tongue. Grampa used to say Harleys were cheap crap, he was a indian rider. End of another era. It is rough when a english Manufacturer is closer to making true conceptual Indians then the high dollar american one. They are indian's in England, Dakota 4's in AMerica. That is a motorcycle, Volvo air cooled boat motor, BMW transmission, etc...

Ohh and you are aware that the Roasted peanuts have Salt added to them to add flavor then ground into peanut butter. They sell boiled peanuts here, they remind me of half cooked salty beans.

Yeah, let them hard drive manufacturers put windows on, as long as the debug-format utility can erase it completely.

Ohh, and "FORD" always says they have a better ideal. Tired of paying techs who can't fix thier computers? You remember the windows robot at SWM? It was the most labor intensive robot in the plant. Pain in the butt... Good thing I didn't have power there, I had a tool box and frustration.

Ohh, and "OUR" outhouse while growing up was a piano crate, Nothing like sitting down and finding out wasps had built a nest under the seat, and .... WE didn't even have a television set, the neighbor about a mile down the road had one we'd watch saturday westerns on. Whoo hoo, when I was about five we got a inside toilet and Seven, a black and white television. It was colored, well it had AMos and Andy on it late at night.

I growed up in the south, I had to read books for entertainment.

Kids don't know how lucky they are.

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 09-25-2003).]

09-25-2003, 12:31 PM
IBEW: you say "I growed up in the south, I had to read books for entertainment". I been wondering why you poverty stricken hicks from the sticks are better educated than the rest of us. I been doing some reading that confirms that early reading increases knowledge. All this time I figured it was the superior diet Southern boys got.

Live and learn!
Steve http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
PS: It like when I eat Mexican food- I KNOW I am gonna pay for my smart mouth, but by Gump, its worth it!!!!!!

09-25-2003, 11:19 PM
Superior diet.. Yeah.. I remember standing barefoot in a blackberry briar patch eating blackberries.. You move really slow and careful, you notice a rattle snake moving through the briars, yep, self control, you can't run..

That kind of self control comes in handy when you are zipping in an out of traffic in Atlanta.

I sure wish I had some of them blackberries that bust when you pick them.. Right now.. You can't buy them, have to experience them by picking them. Sooo ripe...

Friend, not all of us Southerners married our cousins.. ha ha.. I know... I do have some cute cousins tho..

09-25-2003, 11:28 PM
Dave, Steve

You guys hear about that kid at Utah University that built his own fusion reactor in his basement from plans found on the internet? Won't produce any power, but it makes a great neutron source. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//cool.gif

Damn, I have been sitting on my ass too long - wish I had my own fusion reactor... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

Can't say we have any deadly snakes up here (other than retarded politicians) but we used to have badgers, wolverines, bears, wasps, hornets, bees (I kind of like getting bee stings - feels nice), and my bitchy sister to worry about when we picked wild berries. Mind you, my sister scared most of the wildlife away... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

God, I miss Grandma's (and Grandma especially) gooseberry/rubarb pie...

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 09-25-2003).]

09-26-2003, 11:30 AM
Gooseberry/rhubarb pie! Wife is going to visit her mom in south dakota. The Mom in law grows the fixings in her back yard. Wife is going to bring a back a jar.

Blackberries- I must admit the best blackberries i have tasted in the last 30/40 years came from the roadside in Washington state. Sis raises blackberries right across the road from where the good ones were- so I doubt it is climate that makes them so good. Blackberry cobbler!
DewBerry pie!

And while we were on Victoria island, wife and I discovered Bumble berry pie (a mix of berries). Good stuff!!!

It is a wonderful world we live in if we just open eyes and enjoy it.

Edit comment: Thrud, only reason I clicked reply was to ask about when and a link to the Utah stuff. I have really read very little in the last few years. I was saving some magazines that had the start of of what I though would be a good article in cold fusion, but the article petered out in a strange way. Still have the Magazines but no need to send if the article had no conclusion.

ANy way post a link if you have it.

IBEW: My mom was from Mississippi. Came from a family of share cropper/tenant farmers. Funny thing, and you may noticed this: it only takes one relative from south to contaminate you. If you have "mom", "dad" or Gparents in the line, you are considered to be "of racist background" regardless of what you personally do or think. One drop of southern blood, you are contaminated. hat means you can not show pride. Funny world ain't it?

[This message has been edited by docsteve66 (edited 09-26-2003).]

09-26-2003, 06:58 PM

Goto http://www.exn.ca/cgi-bin/query2.idq?CiRestriction=fusion+reactor and click on the link for "Kid Fusion" it is a video clip of the Daily Planet (Discovery channel) interview.

I am still working on my mass/energy convertor and have not ruled out anything yet. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 09-26-2003).]

10-05-2003, 03:23 PM
Looks like a BUSH HOG gearbox is what I am installing. Good for over 60 hp, has good bearings. Hookup will be a treat. I can post pictures if you all want, the frame neck and downtubes are bent. I let them rust out of neglect. All the mounts need to be made now.


And, I have not been home a lot lately. We Killed two small copperheads in the KITCHEN this morning.. Lots of fun..

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-05-2003).]

10-05-2003, 03:28 PM
Maybe you should get a pet mongoose to take care of those wee buggers!

I for one would love to see progress on your project - got me drooling at least... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

10-05-2003, 06:35 PM
A BUSH HOG????? I use to cut the orchard with a big 12' offset unit. Damned near climed a tree a few times with it. What a gear box. They go back at least 50 or 60 years . Tried and true though. Even Bush Hog uses hydraulics. Whats with you guys? I seen mention of an out house by someone on this string. He must be the more advanced one of you . I'll just bet the rest of you are laying your buts over a log , wipping with leaves and feeling progressive. How can you even think of a 60 year old 90 degree drive and not consider hydraulics? Must be somthing in your soup down there that makes you think like that?? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

10-05-2003, 09:41 PM

Hydraulics are great, if you stop them from foaming, stop them from overheating, have a large storage tank to work on the above. Have you seen the MSDS on hydraulic oil. I have had it all over me regular like for about 1/2 of my life.

Yeah, it would be great. I kinda like the simplicity of direct drive, putting it inline for style kinda changed the ideal of simplicity thou. More things to break, well they usually do. AND also, I got to mount a radiator somewhere....

I happen to have this 25hp hydraulic power pack in the yard, looks like gear pump thou.

THE smart thing to do, was to keep the shaft drive bike I sold for $225 and use it's rear wheel, driveshaft, etc.. I didn't... I really don't want any JAP parts on this one. Kinda keep it all AMerican..

I got a 79 shovel borrowed with SU, progressive shocks, and some other nice additions on it.. A mix, american and foreign parts that works.. I know..
This project may get pushed behind making money again.

Ohh, and after you hang it across a log, don't wipe with the shiny leaves, they are poison ivy... HA>....

[This message has been edited by ibewgypsie (edited 10-05-2003).]

10-06-2003, 09:45 AM
How about using spider gears out of a old differential.

10-06-2003, 07:40 PM
You don't have to worry. No rad required. Simply use the frame for cooling. It will be all the cooling you need. Foaming is not a problem much any more . The new oils are much less prone to foaming. And just imagine the weight savings without breaks and tansmission to worry about. It's sort of like when Harley took the chain off there bikes and used a rubber fan belt to drive the rear wheel. It took some getting use to but we did. There are many types of hydraulic motors though. Gears are just one. There is piston and swash plate type, ball type and the most advanced of all is the "trydine". No metal parts touch in it and it life span is determined by the changing of fluids as oposed to wear. Working with the large fishing fleet we have here I see rotational hydraulics used every day. Any way I'v said enough back to Bush Hog. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

10-06-2003, 10:45 PM
Fusion? Dave, sooner or later some one is going to tap into that energy. And I suspect it will be done with no grants. Interesting to note that this kid is from utah (same as Pons and company). The wheels are grinding slowly, but i think fusion will come to pass- a "boot leg" power plant in the back yard.


10-06-2003, 11:08 PM

I think that is quite possible and quite likely in the near future. The times they are a changing...so fast!

10-07-2003, 08:27 AM

Fusion? You could have harnessed the HOT-WET-SPOT in the middle of my back the other night caused by a 18 year old girl's first harley ride. (maybe a steam turbine to capture the heat?)

I sure am enjoying life. Finally after all these years. If I had only had made enough money to coast the rest of it by now.

10-09-2003, 05:47 PM

I thought I had the coasting part set - then I got sick. It is like getting taken for a ride by a divorce lawyer only worse. I feels yer pain, my brother.

10-09-2003, 10:23 PM
THe lil shovelhead (current ride) has a SU on it.. It has some problems. Sunday it was leaking gas in a steady stream. Opening it up I found a glass bead as the float valve. I reset the float level lower. It worked. Brakes were maladjusted so the pressure didn't come off the disc, AND.. altenator is charging, but the plug is burned and loses connection.

Kinda heartbreaking here right at Winter's door.

I'll work the lil details out after parts get here. It sure does sound good, has dual plug heads, drag pipes. Cranks really easy.

I once put a car battery on the rear seat and rode the heck outa a panhead. Charge it once a day. I bet I was a sight.

11-16-2003, 11:20 AM
I recieved a 90 degree gearbox from one of our readers here on HSM. Looks beefy enough to work.

This project has hit the back burner now thou. (Again)


11-16-2003, 04:33 PM
I didnt read all the above , so maybe it is a repeat try a goldwing diferential, after 25 years some have to be in the boneyard.