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Tuckerfan
06-17-2010, 03:56 AM
I'm in the midst of rereading The Indomitable Tin Goose, which is the biography of Preston Tucker, when I stumbled across mention of them having to make replacement suspension arms for the Tin Goose out of beryllium copper. This got me wondering as to how easy it would have been to find and machine back then (assuming they actually did use the stuff, the book isn't accurate in a number of details, and its possible the author made up the story about them using beryllium copper), not to mention what, if any, safety precautions they would have taken.

Anyone have any ideas? Also, how easy would it be to check and see if the arms really are made of the stuff, without removing them from the car? (I know people who are friends with the owner of the car, so it might be possible to confirm this, if there's a simple, non-destructive test that can be done.)

macona
06-17-2010, 04:01 AM
Take the car to a scrap yard with an Xirf gun. They could tell you exactly what they are.

Tuckerfan
06-17-2010, 04:04 AM
Take the car to a scrap yard with an Xirf gun. They could tell you exactly what they are.
You're proposing that I suggest they take a car worth approximately $1 million to a scrap yard?

ptjw7uk
06-17-2010, 04:30 AM
You could try a few simple test as beryllium copper is non magnetic, a simple magnet test, clean part and look as it should look like plain copper!
You could get a few scrappings for spectrographic examination or even SEM exam.
From memory it should look just like copper!
In the 60's I worked at a copper refinery where they made beryllium copper alloy containing less than 3% Be that was before its toxic properties were widely known, last I heard (in Uk) all the a\lloy was being made at Harwell!

Peter

Doc Nickel
06-17-2010, 07:01 AM
You're proposing that I suggest they take a car worth approximately $1 million to a scrap yard?

-No, he's proposing you find a scrapyard that has the gun, and somehow arrange to use the gun on the part, whether that means bringing the gun to the car, the car to the gun, or somehow meeting in the middle.

The gun's not cheap (what, $5K?) so it may be tricky, but you never know. The guy that runs the scrapyard might be glad to swing it by after work one day just for the chance to see a Tucker in person.

I suspect, however, you'll find they're not BeCu. It's very expensive even today, orders moreso back in the forties, and very difficult to machine- especially back at the dawn of carbides.

There's no reason to have BeCu A-arms; the metal's not lighter than steel, and while it's stronger, there's very little savings from using less copper instead of more steel.

Preston, however, wasn't necessarily the most rational designer, so who knows? :D

Doc.

RWO
06-17-2010, 01:40 PM
The roller tuning coils in some of the USAAF aircraft radios used in WWII had bearings and shafts made from BeCu because they were carrying RF current and needed to be wear resistant.

RWO

Tuckerfan
06-17-2010, 03:24 PM
-No, he's proposing you find a scrapyard that has the gun, and somehow arrange to use the gun on the part, whether that means bringing the gun to the car, the car to the gun, or somehow meeting in the middle.

The gun's not cheap (what, $5K?) so it may be tricky, but you never know. The guy that runs the scrapyard might be glad to swing it by after work one day just for the chance to see a Tucker in person.
Well, the car's in a private collection near DC, and the owner is an elderly gentleman, who is probably unwilling to put up with a whole lot of fooling around to find this out.

I suspect, however, you'll find they're not BeCu. It's very expensive even today, orders moreso back in the forties, and very difficult to machine- especially back at the dawn of carbides.

There's no reason to have BeCu A-arms; the metal's not lighter than steel, and while it's stronger, there's very little savings from using less copper instead of more steel.

Preston, however, wasn't necessarily the most rational designer, so who knows? :D

Doc.It wasn't Tucker's idea to make them out of BeCu, one of his mechanics supposedly took it upon himself to make them, since he knew that the aluminum ones Tucker used wouldn't be able to withstand the weight of the lead in the prototype car. It might very well be false, since I've found a number of inaccuracies and contradictions in the book, so far.

boslab
06-17-2010, 06:20 PM
it casts well, you can forge it, mill it, press it and it rolls well, a lot of oilworkers tools were made of it as its antispark as its non ferrous, odd thing is you can get cold chisels to cut steel out of it, windows for xray tubes are made of it, but dont grind it or sand it without an extractor as you will absorb the dust in your lungs and cause nasty things to happen, they didnt care too much in the 40s but they knew all about it by the start of the 50s as cases of poisoning were frequent, i dont know if it worked but workers were given milk to drink, same as the leadworkers [who were mostly going nuts anyway]
the human body has interesting ways of storing poisons, bone teeth and hair, also nails end up as storage sites for what the body cant excrete.
Some of the modern day poisons like Strontium 90 are so similar to calcium chemically that it gets incorperated as bone, emmiting radiation and irradiating your own bone marrow, as well as poisoning you
mark

macona
06-17-2010, 08:47 PM
The gun's not cheap (what, $5K?) so it may be tricky, but you never know. The guy that runs the scrapyard might be glad to swing it by after work one day just for the chance to see a Tucker in person.



Closer to 30-35k.

Peter S
06-17-2010, 10:28 PM
We used beryllium copper for nozzles in plastic injection moulds, horrible stuff to machine, very tough. We bought it in solid bar form and made them as required. Not dangerous. As stated above "looks like copper".

tdmidget
06-17-2010, 10:48 PM
Peter is right. Beryllium copper is not dangerous. The Be is alloyed with the copper and only separable by a chemical reaction. Beryllium is dangerous if pure ( almost impossible) or in ceramics. We have a shop here ( rather not name) that does the ceramics. It is locally know as the "shop of death". When they opened they pooh poohed the danger and told prospective employees that the danger was remote but if they ever did develop berylliosis they would cover all expenses and pay their salary for life. When they did get it they were dumped on workman's comp, including a woman in HR whose only contact was talking to workers in their work clothes.
In the alloy it is not a danger. It would be from welding, plasma cutting or similar processes.
I do not believe a BeCu cold chisel could cut steel. The stuff I have encountered was not that hard. Spark resistant tools I have seen, including hammers , Channellocks and adjustable wrenches have all been and labeled as Aluminum Bronze

camdigger
06-17-2010, 11:07 PM
The only copper beryllium I've ever been around was housings for a downhole survey tool. Non magnetic - good for instrumentation housings, strong - good for thin wall tubes, big $ from what I was told.

And yes, it did look like copper when scratched, and took on a dark brown patina with time.

gmatov
06-17-2010, 11:20 PM
Since I was on a Minesweeper Ocean, a boat that could not afford to have a magnetic field in combat, nor, since we never went to a battle area, when we went to field trials.

All forged steel tools were removed from the ship to be replaced with BeCu tools, from combo wrenches to Crescents to socket wrenches to screwdrivers.

They were at least as strong as the forged steel tools they replaced.

The boat was wood. I think they even used non-magnetic spikes to attach the hull planks. Degaussing coils all around the boat. Take your magnetic personal belongings off the boat (early transistor radios, electric razors, etc., off the boat before trials.

I read in a sci-fi novel, many years ago, I think the smart guy was called a Xenopath, about a colony that died off, and the skeletons of the colonists were pocked as though they had been pecked by birds. He proved or convinced them that they died of Be poisoning. It ate away the calcium from their bones. The surface, not like osteoporosis, which is general reduction of bone density.

As mentioned, in alloy, it is probably not all that harmful, but I don't know that for sure.

Cheers,

George

Mcgyver
06-17-2010, 11:35 PM
Peter is right. Beryllium copper is not dangerous.

I'd be real sure about that, its contrary to just about everything you can find to read on it. CuBe is toxic to inhale. Pure Be is worse and is machined in in pressure suits (accounts of reactor workers and nasa parts makers) in sealed rooms.

it safe as an antispark tool or suspension part or whatever, its the CuBe dust that'll kill you. 2% CuBe is toxic, even lethal but its one of those things that doesn't affect everyone, about 1/3 of the population are susceptible. Welding is a no-no, grinding done wet etc....but you always get some dust when machining, where the chip is fracturing all kinds of stuff are going on and knocking about. Just not something i want anything to do with.

camdigger
06-17-2010, 11:38 PM
An MSDS for copper beryllium.http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/CO/copper_beryllium.html

Mike Burch
06-18-2010, 06:01 AM
George, I've never known how a minesweeper could be completely non-magnetic when its got a great big engine or two in its bowels, presumably full of some sort of steel. Did/do they use non-magnetic stainless cranks and so on, or what?

fasto
06-18-2010, 09:42 AM
Did/do they use non-magnetic stainless cranks and so on, or what?
I did some work years ago on minesweepers. They've got non-magnetic engines except for the crankshaft. Everything else is brass, bronze, BeCu, Aluminum Bronze, etc. Engines were Italian made and evidently none too reliable.

BobWarfield
06-18-2010, 10:19 AM
http://www.brushwellman.com/EHS/Safety%20Facts/SF101.pdf

Modern CNC with heavy flood coolant and mist recovery should be fine. You will need to take care with the coolant afterward. Definitely need to observe the right precautions, but manageable.

Not quite so bad as "tickling the dragon"--manipulating a plutonium bomb core with a screwdriver.

Love those guns, Macona, though they made the tricorder look an awful lot like a phaser:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Tools/BrukerSorter.jpg

And one more nice article on beryllium machining:

http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Issue/Article/False/21682/Issue


Best,

BW

kf2qd
06-18-2010, 03:09 PM
The non-sparking tools I am familiar with were made of a grade of AmpcoBronze. I have worked with the stuff and it machines hard, and will cold forge 4140 without taking a mark. Finishes nice and keeps the finish for a long time.

Alistair Hosie
06-18-2010, 04:11 PM
You're proposing that I suggest they take a car worth approximately $1 million to a scrap yard?

All the srap yards here let you out again it's not prison. come and go as you please even a $ten million dollar car :D Alistair

Rich Carlstedt
06-18-2010, 05:15 PM
Years ago in the eighties, A medical doctor told me that not all people have a problem with BECopper.
As an example ....He decribed it as solid objects for an understanding.
He said the BE had square molecules and those people with square holed lung tissue could have the BE enter and subsequently block the lung pores/tissue.
Those people with round hole lung tissue did not accept the squares and would reject them, thus not being affected by BE.

The problem he said was that while BE "could" affect about 20% of the population (The other 80% being "round") there was no way to determine what type of tissue a person had ahead of time. Autopsy was the only method of determining a person status.

This may explain why some fellows get it and some don't ?
As a precaution, he advised it was OK to handle and machine, and to just not breathe the dust

Rich
I have never seen the above explained anywhere else.
We were "re-machining" BEcopper at the time, and so used flood coolant

Tuckerfan
06-19-2010, 01:38 AM
You're proposing that I suggest they take a car worth approximately $1 million to a scrap yard?

All the srap yards here let you out again it's not prison. come and go as you please even a $ten million dollar car :D Alistair
Alistair, you've obviously not been to Washington DC. Any scrap yard near there is going to be located in an area which resembles Dresden after WWII and the likelihood of getting hit by a stray (or even not so stray) bullet is going to be uncomfortably high.

jatt
06-19-2010, 07:36 AM
The washers used on military radios I used to repair were surposedly made of the stuff.

The issue we were always warned about was if there was oxidisation present on the washers. In one place I worked they went as far as bagging an item and sending it off somewhere if the corrosion was deemed bad enough.

gmatov
06-20-2010, 01:39 AM
Fasto,

My boats had GM 8-268 and 8-278 engines on them, + one 6-71. 5 engines in all. All, and I can't remember about the 6-71, were fabbed aluminum. Cranks, cams, wrist pins, the like, were steel. Reduction gears were steel.

There are limits to what you can replace with nonmagnetic parts. Wearing parts need, in most cases, to be made of steel. Valves could be made of titanium alloy, I don't know if they would be magnetic.

Object was to reduce the potential magnetic signature.

Fuel oil and water tanks were all Monel.

Oh, injectors, too,,unit injectors n GM's were all steel.

Fireaxes in the panic stations were bronze bladed.

They might have gone overboard, but the only ship sunk in the Korean War was a Minesweeper that blew a mine and obliterated the ship. Pics of what has been said to be an officer on the Bridge 100 feet or more in the air after the blast.

I still liked being on that boat.

Cheers,

George

Evan
06-20-2010, 01:02 PM
Anyone have any ideas? Also, how easy would it be to check and see if the arms really are made of the stuff, without removing them from the car? (I know people who are friends with the owner of the car, so it might be possible to confirm this, if there's a simple, non-destructive test that can be done.)

Why does anybody care? You are surrounded by products that use beryllium copper. It is used in battery contacts in good quality battery powered devices, thermostats with bimetal springs, nearly any type of relay that uses copper beam spring contacts, coil springs in all sorts of devices and in a wide variety of non-magnetic applications. Beryllium metal when alloyed is not particularly bio available. For most metals to be bio available they must be in combinations with other non metal elements such as oxygen. Beryllium oxide is the most common form and is used in ceramics. It was also used in the phosphors of fluorescent lights before about 1980 or so but has long since been banned from similar applications.

Beryllium copper has the same sort of toxicity and regulatory protocols as tungsten carbide. Don't breath the fumes from grinding, don't smelt it or heat it hotter than required to solder it. Wash hands after doing anything that produces small particles such as sanding or polishing.

The use of BC in a car suspension part poses no risk or hazard to anybody except perhaps the people that were involved in originally making the parts. Nobody in their right mind is going to try to alter or weld a suspension arm.

jugs
06-20-2010, 05:36 PM
Nobody in their right mind is going to try to alter or weld a suspension arm.

Unfortunatly there are many who are not in their right mind

:)

Doc Nickel
06-20-2010, 06:06 PM
Why does anybody care? You are surrounded by products that use beryllium copper.

-In this case, it's simply to confirm (or refute) an anecdote about the car and it's builder. The book says he used BeCu, that seems nonintuitive, so let's see if we can check that out.

Has nothing at all to do with toxicity, that was simply a side-discussion.


Nobody in their right mind is going to try to alter or weld a suspension arm.

-Ooookay... [cracks knuckles] street rod spindle made from scratch (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=511832&d=1223571651), fabricated A-arm #1 (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL19/1983783/15092163/237150225.jpg), fabricated A-arm #2 (http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_photos/00044506/12230000971.jpg), fabricated A-arm #3 (http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_photos/00044506/12232477971.jpg), modified control arm (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=512270&d=1223644901), fabricated A-arm #4 (http://www.hotrodders.com/journal_photos/00044506/12237715310.jpg), fabricated control arm (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=549079&d=1228794035)...

Need I go on? :D

Doc.

Evan
06-20-2010, 06:12 PM
So what? It makes no difference. BTW, I don't think that I mentioned that I learned to run a stationary steam engine at the age of 12. 3 foot flywheel on the machine too.


Need I go on?

I don't see the connection. Sure, make your own. Not the same as trying to alter the factory part, especially on a collector car.

tdmidget
06-20-2010, 06:23 PM
George I'm not familiar with the boats you describe. I worked for a company that scrapped 2 minesweepers. The propulsion engines were Packard diesels. They had cast aluminum block and heads. The rods and crank were NiResist. Virtually everything else that would have been steel was stainless or some other nonmagnetic alloy, including the reduction gears. The armament had been removed of course but it appeared to have had 20mm and .50 cal guns. I wonder about them?

Doc Nickel
06-20-2010, 08:01 PM
I don't see the connection. Sure, make your own. Not the same as trying to alter the factory part, especially on a collector car.

-Yep, no connection whatsoever between welding metal to make a part and welding metal to modify a part. Just as different as toasters and kumquats. :D

Doc.

gmatov
06-21-2010, 12:19 AM
TD,

Those were MSC's, Mine Sweep, Coastal. I think they were plywood construction, under 100 foot long.

They had 12 cylinder Packards on them, the rest of their regalia, I don't recall.

Mine, a bigger boat, had a 40 MM in the gun tub, no 50's. All the rest of our munitions type armament was shoulder fired.

I only visited one a few times at the behest of our Gunner's Mate whose buddy on the MSC had a bunch of rusty weapons, which OUR GM didn't know anything about, to pull the fat from the fire for him. Frozen BARs, frozen Thompsons, frozen everything. How he graduated GM school without learning how to strip down his weapons, I don't know.

I have shot and loved guns since I was a kid, and I was a Marine prior to the Navy, hence knew those weapons, so it was a no-brainer to ask my help.

I THINK all their main armament was paravanes and cable cutters to cut mines loose. Ocean Boats had magnetic and acoustic devices, with dedicated engines to power them.

I think you might be right on the gearing. The gearboxes might have had alloyed gears that were non-mag, but I don't recall. Near 50 years ago.

I do recall that we had a pneumatic clutch. Inflate a bladder to go. They were Westinghouse, similar to GM Twin-Disc, except air controlled,instead of kicking over a second set of pressure plates, or engaging dog clutches, like Joe's Reduction Gear.

They were interesting boats. I liked them. Not enough to spend 20 years on the,but still.....

Cheers,
George

Evan
06-21-2010, 07:02 AM
When we lived on Vancouver Island in the early 70s we rented a house at a marina on a very secluded anchorage in a well protected bay on Findlayson Arm. I would do some odd jobs for the owner of the marina including looking after the customer's boats when a storm came up and maintenance on his fishing boats. He had a good sized jetty and there was a government dock in front of our house as well. This was a favorite anchorage for quite a few people with good sized yachts that liked to travel without fanfare. John Wayne was one of those people and he would visit our dock on occasion. His boat was the Wild Goose, a converted Navy Minesweeper about 130 feet long. He gave me a tour of the boat one day and it was a beauty. All of it immaculate with the wood taken down to show the grain where possible and the new decks in wood as well. The engine room was as clean as a galley should be. Nice boats those mine sweepers. John Wayne was a nice guy too.

kbertoson
06-21-2010, 12:35 PM
There was an article in Popular Science or Mechanics in the late 1950's or early 1960's. It had pictures and a history of the boat. For all of you that lived or grew up in the Seattle area. The boat was built in 1943 or1944 by the Ballard Boat Works. I grew up in Ballard so found that of interest.

madman
06-21-2010, 01:29 PM
how easy would it be to check and see if the arms really are made of the stuff, without removing them from the car?Well Berryliumn coppers usage is for many things one being its properties in a explosive atmosphere for open end wrenches. Now if you strike a black pipe fitting really smartly with a standard wrench you will get a spark of sorts, but use a beryliumn wrench No Spark SO just wack the **** out of that cars suspension unit with a big heavy chunk of black pipe and see if it sparks? Oh turn lights off so you can see the sparks easier.

tdmidget
06-21-2010, 01:34 PM
George these boats had wooden hulls of oak board laminated. I assume there was some kind of glue in there but each layer was fastened with brass/bronze screws. It was about 12 inches thick at the rail. We calculated at the time and I don't remember but there were tons of these fasteners. Jacques Cousteau had one, the Calisto. It would certainly be a job just finding people that could build such a boat today. I was told that the Packards were a problem,too complex for the forces that maintained them. Not hard to believe since they were built like a race car, twin OHC with bucket tappets, gear drive to the cams.

tdmidget
06-21-2010, 01:41 PM
George these boats had wooden hulls of oak board laminated. I assume there was some kind of glue in there but each layer was fastened with brass/bronze screws. It was about 12 inches thick at the rail. We calculated at the time and I don't remember but there were tons of these fasteners. Jacques Cousteau had one, the Calisto. It would certainly be a job just finding people that could build such a boat today. I was told that the Packards were a problem,too complex for the forces that maintained them. Not hard to believe since they were built like a race car, twin OHC with bucket tappets, gear drive to the cams.
They had huge reels of stainless wire rope and various appliances that attached. Hard to tell what everything did since they had been heavily cannabalized before sale.

gmatov
06-22-2010, 12:49 AM
TD,

They may have been, and I hope from White Oak. I think the word is "spicules" in Red Oak that make it less than water tight.

My boat was definitely not of any Oak. I think, if I recall, it was Balsam Fir, but don't know how that would last in a wet state for 40+ years. Could have been Cedar, I believe there is an abundance in the Northwest.

Also, my boat was made in Washington State, and I was told that a ship building crew was brought from Scandinavia for their expertise with wooden boats.

Ribs were pretty deep, and the hull was reported to be 3 inch plank.

Packards were touchy engines, too sophisticated for shipboard use. Instructors in "A" School weren't too crazy about them. GMs were nearly bullet proof. Fairbanks-Morse were probably even better, sub engines, but I never worked on them. They did and still might use them on Diesel Locos, but, I can't really say.

All that stainless cable was probably for the wires with paravanes that strung the wire, with cable cutters attached, complete with explosive charge, much as Evan says about controlled explosives for the Leak, snag a mooring line from a mine to the seabed, trigger the cutter, the charge goes off, the cable is cut, the mine bobs up, and marksmen shoot at it to detonate it.

Only thing worse than a moored mine under the surface is a mine that is floating at random with the currents.

Evan,

Every deck on my boat above the Engineroom diamond plate was also wood. I'd like to know how many Naval vessels DON'T have wooden decks, main decks?

Cheers,

George

Evan
06-22-2010, 02:04 AM
Mr. Wayne added a salon to the boat which was all richly appointed in wood with picture windows down the sides. Just a min while I find a picture,,,

http://ixian.ca/pics7/wgoose.jpg

gearedloco
06-22-2010, 03:48 AM
[QUOTE=gmatov]TD,

[ ... ]
Packards were touchy engines, too sophisticated for shipboard use. Instructors in "A" School weren't too crazy about them. GMs were nearly bullet proof. Fairbanks-Morse were probably even better, sub engines, but I never worked on them. They did and still might use them on Diesel Locos, but, I can't really say.

[ ... ]

Fairbanks-Morse got out of the railroad locomotive business a long time ago. They didn't last long at all.

One of the big problems was overheating. On a sub you've got a really big heat-sink. No locomotive could haul a radiator that big and have anything left to move freight with.

Another big problem was maintenance. I've read that changing a "power-unit" (I think that's a cylinder liner/piston/con-rods assembly) was a real pain with the top crankshaft being in the way.

There was a 2-part article in "Trains" magazines quite a few years back. It's likely hiding around here somewhere...

-bill

Duffy
06-22-2010, 10:01 AM
George, The hull was quite probably Douglas fir. A common combination on the West coast for fishing vessls was yellow cedar, (which isnt cedar,) ribs and Douglas fir planking. It is, near as dammit, as strong as oak, very rot resistant in an all-wet environment, and was very plentiful in large clear sections.
Somebody is overlooking a simple fact: you couldnt build a totally non-magnetic warship. However, as long as the magnetic "signature" of the mine sweeper was small compared to the those of the ships the mines were designed to destroy, there was little danger from the mines. Trouble came if a magnetic mine somehow came too close to the minesweeper. Magnetic mines were not anchored floating mines. They were usually laid in shallow waters where the hull HAD to pass close to the mine. The magnetic influence falls off as the 4th power of the distance, (or some such strange factor,) so a shallow draft, mostly non-magnetic boat was comparatively safe. The challenge was finding the mines.

Evan
06-22-2010, 10:12 AM
3rd power. Electrostatic forces are surface forces so they follow 2nd power. Magnetic is a volumetric manifestation of the force so it follows 3rd power. Don't ask about gravity.

The Helmholtz coils on the ship were for nulling the last traces of magnetic field. The also nulled the Earth's magnetic field since any moving metal will produce eddy currents in that field regardless of whether it is ferrous or not.

gnm109
06-22-2010, 10:29 AM
There would have been no safety precautions with regard to the Berrylium content back in Tucker's day. They didn't worry about things like that then. The OSHA Act wasn't signed until 1970 by President Nixon.

I recall driving past Tucker's plant in the Chicago area when I was but a mere child in my Dad's car.

gmatov
06-23-2010, 02:05 AM
Evan,

I don't know what kind of boat that is, but, unless you cut the superstructure off at the fourth stanchion aft of the windscreen, it is not one like I ever served on.

Main armament deck and main armament are gone, of course. It is no longer a warship.

That dark thing on the fore of the boat would be where a 40 mm guntub would be. JUST aft of that would be where the boat would have its main deck.

None of those thing that look like lights would exist on a Man'oWar. None of that after superstructure would exist on a Man'owar.
Nothing above that reddish line on the stern half would have been original.

Where those last 7 lights appear would be the stern deck, nothing above the deck but the Main Armament, the Magnetic Cable Reels.

The hull looks right, but everything above the gn'ls look like someone wanted to make himself a cheap yacht that could cross the Ocean, and we did, often, and I guess the Duke could, too

I never liked him since I learned that he was complicit in blackballing other actors under the McCarthy House Unamerican Activities Hearings. He was actually a no good SOB who got draft deferments because the Studios were afraid he would lose his stardom if he were out of the lime light for an extended period of time. JUST as RR got deferments and did GI JOE movies during WWII. HE couldn't be bothered, either. James Stewart and Stewart Granger COULD go to war, and countless others, but RR and JW, also known as:

Marion Mitchell Morrison (May 26, 1907 June 11, 1979), born Marion Robert Morrison and better known by his stage name John Wayne.
couldn't.

All my heros have feet of clay.

Cheers,

George

gmatov
06-23-2010, 02:25 AM
Duffy,

I think you are right about Doug Fir. I built my house of Doug Fir. Local lumberyard tried to tell me that their Spruce-Fir was the same, but it weighed less because it was better dried. Wet wood weighs a LITTLE more than Doug Fir, so they thought they would get my business with dry spruce-pine-fir. Also known as "White Wood".Cheapest you can buy. My hip roof needed 24 footers for the hip rafters. Only one plaqce in this area I could get them.

Bad is that they were on top of the load when they dumped the house pile. Long boards were hooked. Put them on the rack and hauled them to the lumberyard, "You got to be kidding, 2X6X24 and you give me barrel staves?"

Go pick good ones. Did and no extra charge for coming back to bitch. Hips are 2 X8, now. Shoulda been all along. It's a bitch to cut that bird's mouth in a 2 X 6.

Cheers,

George