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radkins
06-19-2010, 06:36 PM
I bought a set of Sears Craftsman Cobalt drill bits today that according to the package were proudly assembled in the USA! It just makes me feel good to know that I have helped all those skilled US workers keep their jobs assembling drill bits here in the USA.:rolleyes:

MotorradMike
06-19-2010, 06:50 PM
That reads a bit sarcastic. Are you thinking that maybe 'Usa' is a Chinese town or that maybe the 'assembly' consisted of putting the drill index into a cardboard box?

gwilson
06-19-2010, 07:39 PM
What else could it mean? There isn't much else to do with a drill but put it into an index.

radkins
06-19-2010, 08:49 PM
That reads a bit sarcastic.



Definitely meant to be sarcastic as I would think it was just a lame attempt to make people think they are buying USA made drill bits instead of Chinese, I mean after all how the dickens would somebody "assemble" a stinkin drill bit? As far as placing them in an index these things were just in a plastic package in a blister pack so "assembly" could not mean anything except packaging, why couldn't they just say "packaged" in the USA? When did packaging an imported product become assembly?:rolleyes:

Doc Nickel
06-19-2010, 09:01 PM
Two possibilities:

One: it is, in fact, an intentional misleading, with the assumption that "putting the bits in their packaging" constitutes "assembly", and therefore by the letter of the law they can state so.

Or Two: They have the graphics 'template' for the packaging, since the same general bubblepack is used for a variety of parts, bits and tools. Some items are indeed assembled, others are single parts like drill and screwdriver bits. So 'assembled' fits more products than 'made', considering even the assembled stuff typically uses some overseas components.

Or, a third possibility; I see a lot of things like that as entirely separate stickers, presumably because the same packaging is used for other countries that don't have the same legal requirements for labelling, or because sometimes parts of the assembly come from more than one place.

In this case, it's possible somebody just slapped on the wrong sticker, or they're just using one sticker for everything.

Doc.

Willy
06-19-2010, 09:06 PM
I'm afraid your right.

They can print "assemble" on the stinken package and hope enough gullible people believe that they are actually supporting American industry, when in fact the drill bits were only assembled, or brought together in the US.

Just like most salesmen...tell the public what they want to hear, just make sure it's not an outright lie and you'll get away with it.
Deceit is a lot harder to enforce.

hornluv
06-19-2010, 09:10 PM
I saw a Rubbermaid storage container set at Walmart yesterday that said "Made in USA from foreign components." They're plastic Rubbermaid containers, not some complex assembly with multiple moving parts. Did the raw material come from someplace else or are they saying it's made here because they put all the bottoms and tops together here? BTW, this was in a big red, white, and blue display with "American Summer" emblazoned everywhere. This was the only thing I saw with Made in the USA on it. Everything else was Hecho en China.

gregl
06-19-2010, 09:42 PM
I saw a Rubbermaid storage container set at Walmart yesterday that said "Made in USA from foreign components." They're plastic Rubbermaid containers, not some complex assembly with multiple moving parts. Did the raw material come from someplace else or are they saying it's made here because they put all the bottoms and tops together here? BTW, this was in a big red, white, and blue display with "American Summer" emblazoned everywhere. This was the only thing I saw with Made in the USA on it. Everything else was Hecho en China.


According to wikinvest.com, Rubbermaid outsourced 75 percent of it's manufacturing to China in 2007. Perhaps the other 25 percent is there now.

lost_cause
06-19-2010, 09:57 PM
it is a sad state of affairs when our companies have to resort to an "assembled" clause to either appease and confuse the customers or avoid an import tariff. we've given in to the fact that if we want a tool, we won't be buying traditional american made quality anymore, because it's just too expensive to even manufacture them now. we go the route of the asian import, and then analyze the nation of origin to try to determine which is the lesser of the evils.

for the last 30+ years we've let everything be done overseas to save a buck at the manufacturing level and the consumer level, without a thought of the future generations. i barely remember a time when japanese autos were still inferior to ours, but now they are considered to be superior on many levels. the same happened with machinery. when i was younger, we joked about the quality of anything made in taiwan. now when we look for a machine tool, we choose the taiwan tool because it is likely to be a little better quality than the chinese. in a few decades, chinese made may well be the cream of the crop. the one thing to remember through all of this... when we talk about american made machinery, we're generally referring to something made in the 40's through the 80's. we're still using a lot of these tools now, but what about in 20 more years? our manufacturing legacy will be pretty well gone.

make no mistake about it - i'm not advocating that we boycott anything foreign - i'm not against foreign industry, and in some ways it's probably been the driving force to bring some developing countries into the age of the middle class. i'm all for capitalism, but not at the cost of a poverty stricken foreign country. what i'm against is big business as a whole. they outsource our work then sell it back to us at a huge markup, and pocket the difference as nice fat executive bonuses. rich get richer, middle class get poorer. if they outsource for a dime on the dollar, sell it back at the same rate and take a reasonable profit.

sorry for the rant, i'll grab my soapbox on the way out.

Doc Nickel
06-19-2010, 11:07 PM
[The] rich get richer, middle class get poorer.

-Just a pet peeve of mine, but this oft-repeated nugget is complete horsecrap.

The supply of money is not "fixed". It's not like a company that earns $100 million a year, reduces the total stock of money by that much.

The fact of the matter is, the "poor" in the US make more money, and have a better standard of living than ever before.

And yes, that's despite record CEO salaries and hefty industry profits. When Wal-Mart earns $10 billion, do you think they keep it all in a big Scrooge McDuck style moneybin? Of course not- it's in banks (which lets banks loan it back out to others) in stocks (which helps the companies operate and expand) and other investments.

The reality is, when rich companies get richer, so do thousands of others. The much-derided 'trickle-down' economics is far truer than people give it credit for.

Doc.

oldbikerdude37
06-19-2010, 11:09 PM
-Just a pet peeve of mine, but this oft-repeated nugget is complete horsecrap.

The supply of money is not "fixed". It's not like a company that earns $100 million a year, reduces the total stock of money by that much.

The fact of the matter is, the "poor" in the US make more money, and have a better standard of living than ever before.

And yes, that's despite record CEO salaries and hefty industry profits. When Wal-Mart earns $10 billion, do you think they keep it all in a big Scrooge McDuck style moneybin? Of course not- it's in banks (which lets banks loan it back out to others) in stocks (which helps the companies operate and expand) and other investments.

The reality is, when rich companies get richer, so do thousands of others. The much-derided 'trickle-down' economics is far truer than people give it credit for.

Doc.

I agree, if the boss goes broke so does his workers.

Black Forest
06-20-2010, 07:51 AM
I don't understand the problem. The unions in USA created many of the manufacturing outsourcing events.

I think just because you can reproduce doesn't mean you should. Too many people think they are owed a living.

I took all the risks in my investments and in business. When a worker loses a job he goes and gets a new one. When a business owner goes broke he loses everything. If I take the risks I feel I am entitled to the gains.

My father had a small business with thirty men working for him. Many for a long time 20+ years. He paid for weddings, operations, college for a lot of the kids of his workers. Some paid it back, most not. Then the workers decided they were going to join the union and make it a union shop. My father did not want the union in his shop for many reasons. The workers actually made more money than they would by union pay scale.

So anyway, they had meetings and such and finally they had a vote to go union. My dad was at this meeting. When they finished he asked if that was their final answer about the union. They said yes. Then he told them the company was closed and they were all terminated. He told them to leave all the company trucks in the yard and not drive them home like they normally did. Call their wives to come pick them up.

He then told them he only kept the company going for the workers and when they think they are going to tell him how to run his company then that was not an option for him. The enjoyment of running the company was over. Company closed.

His three longest employee's that were with him when he started the company he helped them to set up their own company and gave them all his contracts and financed their startup. Those three voted no on the union deal and tried to tell the other workers that they had it better how it was. The others didn't listened to them and told them they had the "right" to go union. They told them it would not go over with my father. They bowed up and said my father couldn't stop them.

I learned that lesson when I was very young. It was a great lesson.

jkilroy
06-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Black Forest, that story is a classic "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". Sorry your father had to go through that, but seems he handled it well. As a small (VERY SMALL) business owner I can relate. Employees, that have taken ZERO risk and invested ZERO equity, who don't even know of the YEARS of sacrifice and long hours, want to come in and tell the owner how to run the business!?!?!?! Two words come to mind...YOUR FIRED!

loose nut
06-21-2010, 07:34 PM
-Just a pet peeve of mine, but this oft-repeated nugget is complete horsecrap.

The supply of money is not "fixed". It's not like a company that earns $100 million a year, reduces the total stock of money by that much.

The fact of the matter is, the "poor" in the US make more money, and have a better standard of living than ever before.

And yes, that's despite record CEO salaries and hefty industry profits. When Wal-Mart earns $10 billion, do you think they keep it all in a big Scrooge McDuck style moneybin? Of course not- it's in banks (which lets banks loan it back out to others) in stocks (which helps the companies operate and expand) and other investments.

The reality is, when rich companies get richer, so do thousands of others. The much-derided 'trickle-down' economics is far truer than people give it credit for.

Doc.


Really, well have you looked around lately 'cause it ain't trickling down fast enough, the rich are getting richer and there are more of the "well off poor" then ever.

tyrone shewlaces
06-21-2010, 08:02 PM
I don't get much chance to read the labels on stuff at stores. I leave the house to buy groceries and maybe get clothing at the thrift store, and most of that stuff has no packaging so no labels indicating where it comes from. Made in China, Hencho en Mexico, Assembled in USA. Makes no difference to me. I guess they slap those on new merchandise. Sorry - I don't bother going where that stuff is. Last thing I bought was a welder from a garage sale. After I fixed it up I needed the money worse, so I sold it to pay a bill.

Interesting that the folks in agreement that things are just fine for the waged worker are actually business owners. I'm sure you work and maybe even work hard. Yaay for you. That's cool and all, but you aren't union candidates anyway, being in charge of your own destiny to begin with. Throwing a blanket over the powerless masses and saying "shame on you" for preferring union support only demonstrates that you have your head in the sand. Sure there are morons who want to screw their employer. Most employers I've ever met want what they want and don't care about their workers other than how much cash they generate. So half the world is all screwed up. That's nothing new. Just don't forget about the other half. (OK maybe it's more like 90/10, but I'm just saying...)

I'd prefer to have built up a business of my own too, but apparently I'm not wired to deal with that correctly. So I'm just destined to work all day to bring home about 75% of what it takes to stay alive and indoors. I guess in your eyes, even though I work pretty hard and am pretty good at what I do, I don't deserve to have anything or even survive anyway, so screw me. You have the right to think that if you want. Don't bother asking for the time of day though.

Call me crazy, but I am of the opinion that if I work a full time job and near the top end of a skilled trade and live frugal than anybody else I know, seems like I should expect money to be less of a problem as time goes by. I'll tell you this - nothing is trickling down. Every year gets tougher and I've never seen it go downhill faster than the past five years has brought. I kid you not when I say in a few years I expect to own next to nothing and be camping for a living. And there are an increasing number of folks like me.

Wealth is trickling down huh? Dream on. Unbelievable. You probably ought to clam up before somebody hands you your sign.

gmatov
06-21-2010, 11:59 PM
Tyrone,

Good post. 9.7% unemployment, more people losing all they have, and more millionaires than ever, over 10 million of them, per today's paper, and the Employers insist that something will trickle down their legs for the working man.

I've heard that story of Owners shutting down shop when a Union was voted in. Supposedly happened here, in this little coal patch, a local trucking company, maybe 35 trucks and drivers. Shut down, so they say. It DID shut down, but I am pretty sure the Owner had his pile made and was ready to retire.

Owners always think they are paying too much. And that the workers are cheating them and stealing from them.

As to "I never worked for a poor man.", someone here or PM posted a note that every time he asked the Boss for a raise, the Boss told him how poor he was.

Doc,

What's this mean:

"in stocks (which helps the companies operate and expand)"? You mean they hold lots of other Co's stocks, or do you mean their own stocks?

They have nothing to do with their own stock. Once they sell a share, it is gone. The only way they get more money from a rising stock price is if they sell some from the Co. Treasury, whether it was witheld stock, ie, they reserved some for the treasury, or they resell some that they have bought back when they had excess profits with nowhere to put it, and thought buying back their own stock was the best use of that money.

Tyrone's right as to the users, here. Sounds like many of you are small time owners or slightly larger shops who begrudge employees what might be called a "fair share" of any profits.

This is HSM. I though that was supposed to be people with a few machines who did work for their own pleasure. Monetary recompense was secondary. What it sounds like is that it is more Owners who say THEY will tell any employee they will pay what THEY say is enough, no matter what the employee produces.

I make do fairly well after retiring from Basic Steel, even though the industry nearly collapsed in 1984, 3 years into the Republican Reagan Regime. Unionized Steel Mill.

Doc,

Even Arthur Laffer, of the Laffer Curve, and "Trickle Down Economics" said it was all a bunch of hooey, AFTER Reagan was out of office. Bull**** epitomized, and you still think that if YOU make LOTS of money, some of it will go to them peons. YOU know that it will go into your bank account. You might give small bonuses to the peons, but the majority of it will go to you, the rightful owner of it.

THEY'RE not ENTITLED to it! I'M the BOSS! I AM!

Unfortunately, it seems all of business thinks like you.

Cheers,

George

Doc Nickel
06-22-2010, 12:26 AM
Ty, GM, Loose? Tell me: What does a company do with the money it earns? Do they, in fact, stack it in huge underground vaults where it can neither be spent nor accrue interest?

Tell me, where, exactly, does "interest" come from?

How, exactly, does a stock on Wall Street increase in value? When a share of stock goes from, say, $50 a share to $125 a share, where does that extra $75 in value come from?

Who, exactly, owns those stocks? Why were so many people angry that they lost value in their 401(k)s back in '08? Where did that wealth go? Since, in some cases, about two-thirds of that value has returned, where did that 'new' money come from?

Once we're back on the same page, we can continue.

Doc.

tyrone shewlaces
06-22-2010, 01:00 AM
Just want to clarify.
I don't begrudge anybody for having their own business and making good with it. Doc and the others here aren't in the same league as the folks I have a major grudge with. It does ruffle my feathers to hear somebody just a couple notches up on the ladder say things are good today. That's just ignorance. If things are good for you, then honestly I'm happy for you. You are staying (so far) a little ahead of the wave that's drowning the rest of us. Just don't demonstrate that you're out of touch by saying that things are better now than they once were and getting better. Take a good look around man. Might need to try harder, I don't know.

Horsecrap? If you think the big corps are just putting money "out there" in the public domain so other folks can use it, then you are really dreaming. No big business does that. They use their wealth for leverage to get more wealth. I don't know, maybe they could use it to squeeze every bit of competition out that they possibly can. Doc, you did mention Wal Mart didn't you? Ever hear anything about their standard business model over the past decade or two and how they rose to the top in the first place? You really think they are philanthropists propping up the economy? Really? My despair deepens by the hour. And to believe that Wall street is some kind of real gauge for the health of the economy is a problem too. OK so where does the $75 increase in value come from? That's a really good question. The best answer I can think if is that it apparently comes from the ether, because nothing was made, nothing was mined, nothing was invented, nothing from nothing leaves nothing. It's all fiction. It's a bet, nothing more. And the house always wins. I guess if you invest a dollar and get three, then you can be happy about it. But doesn't anybody ever wonder why that dollar is suddenly worth more when nothing happened in between except other people bet with you? It's the grand scam, and most of the world is just totally sucked into it. I mean, make your bet and make money with it if you want. Personally I'd rather count on something like raw material being converted into something with real value. Something real. The fact that Wall Street has climbed back up means nothing to me other than the problem that cause the last collapse has not been dealt with, and the folks in control of it are just on round two of the plunder-fest. Get ready for the second dive. How can this go unnoticed? It seems so obvious.

The real owners are aggressively shoving poverty down our throats. They are setting the game up so that every living soul has no choice but to pay several ongoing mandatory bribes, and the charge is just a number they pull out of thin air rather than providing something for the money paid. What do we get for these fees? As little as is legally allowed, which in many cases is nothing or worse (i.e. insurance companies hand your own death to you on a paper plate). I predict that those who think they are doing OK today will wake up soon enough to realize that they too have had the rug pulled out from under them. That's the goal. If you don't see it, then your head is in the sand. I don't want that for anybody here any more than for myself, but it's becoming harder to avoid it at an alarmingly fast rate. By the way, under the rug is poisoned soil and the air you have been breathing has been made rotten too. Google hydraulic fracturing for some family fun.

Anyway.
There's not much anybody can do to change this momentum. Probably way too late now. Just have to sit here watching the wheels go round and round, and try to enjoy as much as you can. Life is short anyway and always was, so might as well keep finding a silver lining here & there.

So yea. Drill bits assembled in USA? To me that's just another example of what big business has been force-feeding us for over 20 years. Not a big revelation and not important relative to the big picture.

I'm just full of cheer this evening. Sorry so dark tonight. I'll grow out of it soon. Prolly just need to read a few of Doc's strips. They always cheer me up, so gotta thank you for that Doc.

Back to machining discussion tomorrow - I promise.

Black Forest
06-22-2010, 02:01 AM
Not every business owner takes advantage of their workers. I own my own business and my father owned his own business. He didn't and I don't take advantage of any worker.

What I didn't say about the union deal with my fathers shop was the pressure that the Union bosses tried to put on my father. The heavy handed Mafia like bull**** they tried to use to pressure him into going union.

For me it is simple. When an employee tries to help the business run better and save money and do what they can to make for a good working environment plus actually do a good job at what they are hired for, then that employee gets compensated accordingly. Seniority doesn't count much with me. Normally the longer a worker is with a company the less productive they become. They expect that because they are there a longer time they deserve more money. I don't go by that. I pay according to what a person contributes. Not by how long they have been with me. Now a loyal person will get the benefit of the doubt for sure. But the person that comes in does only what they have to do will not see much advancement. Most people come to work with blinders on. They don't look at the big picture and try to do the little things that make such a big difference. They have it in their mind what their job is and they do it and maybe even do it well. It takes energy to stay focused and keep things in perspective.

I am not saying by any means that all business owners are right and fair. I only am saying that I am and my father was also. Attitude counts at least as much as proficiency in my mind. A worker must look at himself as a small business unto himself. People skills and business skills plus being good at producing parts( to put it in the context of this forum) are all part of the job. Too many people think if they are good at producing parts it is enough. Wrong, in today's world you must think as if you are a small business if you are an employee if you want to get ahead and have a bigger piece of the pie. Not to think this way is as was referenced earlier, is putting your head in the sand!

Doc Nickel
06-22-2010, 02:46 AM
Horsecrap? If you think the big corps are just putting money "out there" in the public domain so other folks can use it, then you are really dreaming. No big business does that.

-Microsoft earned $3 billion in profit in 2009. That's profit, as in- roughly- all the money left after bills, payroll and debts.

Where is that money?

Did Bill Gates fill another swimming pool with it? Did they simply bale it up and shove it in a storeroom somewhere? Did MS donate it all to underaged children as a tax writeoff?

Or is it in a bank somewhere, in some form, earning interest?

And if so, what, exactly, is "interest"? Why is the bank essentially paying Microsoft for the privilege of storing their money?

Doc.

polepenhollow
06-22-2010, 03:20 AM
I saw a Rubbermaid storage container set at Walmart yesterday that said "Made in USA from foreign components." They're plastic Rubbermaid containers, not some complex assembly with multiple moving parts. Did the raw material come from someplace else or are they saying it's made here because they put all the bottoms and tops together here? BTW, this was in a big red, white, and blue display with "American Summer" emblazoned everywhere. This was the only thing I saw with Made in the USA on it. Everything else was Hecho en China.


Hencho en Chinee

Liger Zero
06-22-2010, 04:06 AM
Well those "assembly workers" deserve a cheque too.

I've done my share of "assembly work," more often than not disguised as "machine operation" work... that is according to the temp agency.

One agency sold me a job they saw that I had experience with "plastic film" and "plastic film machinery" (blown film extrusion, about six months experience). They sat there asked me questions about what I did with plastic film. I told them. THEY told me all about said job how I would be "in charge" of an entire "plastic film line" and I would be responsible for "setup and changeover" of existing products and blah blah blah.

Got there, job consisted of putting five items in a box, sealing box shut and wrapping box with shrink-wrap and putting it through a heat unit.

Turned around walked out and drove back to the agency, ripped them a new one for lying and just recently had the satisfaction of seein *xcell Staffing get torn apart by the bankruptcy courts.

Evan
06-22-2010, 05:23 AM
-Microsoft earned $3 billion in profit in 2009. That's profit, as in- roughly- all the money left after bills, payroll and debts.

Where is that money?



That happens to be a singularly poor example. Microsoft, under the direction of Bill Gates always kept a huge amount of cash in reserve. Yes, it was in a bank but money in a current account doesn't do a bank much good as it must keep reserves to cover those accounts. I don't know if Microsoft still does it but when Gates was the CEO they kept enough cash to operate for FIVE YEARS without income. That is normally considered very bad practice but Microsoft was and is unique in that it has never had to carry debt. It's very first bond sale was last year and it didn't need the money.

Doc Nickel
06-22-2010, 06:24 AM
Interesting, I didn't know that. I just picked them as a well-known, well-established company that had an easy-to-Google '09 profit margin.

The actual company, though, is immaterial to the point. I'm still wondering if Gmatov, Tyrone and Loose have 'gotten' said point yet...

Doc.

Dave Converse
06-22-2010, 08:29 AM
I'm still wondering if Gmatov, Tyrone and Loose have 'gotten' said point yet...

Doc.They probably will never 'get the point'.......more and more people are being deceived into believing they are 'owed' something they never earned.

Just what does a business "owe" it's employees other than competitive compensation for their toil? Are businesses supposed to adopt those employees as their own children? Who's annointed with the wisdom to decide what "fair share of profits" means? By what perverted thought process do we presume to have earned the right to profits when we never risked any investment in the first place?

It's sad that businesses have been run out of America by greedy leftists who think it their entitlement to rape and pillage those businesses, then call them names for not sticking around for more raping and pillaging. Manufacturing companies have been taxed, regulated, dictated to, and bullied by leftists and their government pawns until they have no other recourse than to escape to foreign soil where workers appreciate their new-found higher standard of living that honest work provides them.

Anyone is certainly free to disagree with me. But no one is free to pretend that Detroit, California, and New York City aren't prime examples of the results of leftist government practice regulating business out of business.......

Evan
06-22-2010, 09:16 AM
It's sad that businesses have been run out of America by greedy leftists who think it their entitlement to rape and pillage those businesses...

Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Businesses have gone to China to make money. It was just mentioned that Nixon was responsible for some of the institutions that differentiate the US from China, such as OSHA. He was hardly a leftist. I grow heartily sick and tired of the continuous highly polarized "everything is the fault of ________ (fill in the party you DON'T vote for)".

I see very little substantive difference between the various political parties. To quote Ronald Reagan, "Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."

Dave Converse
06-22-2010, 09:49 AM
With all due respect to you, Evan, for your uncommon talent for detail and precision (I'm in awe of your metal work as well as your knowledge of astronomy, photography, etc.), you're stumbling in short-sightedness by presuming I was referring to any particular political party. Like you, I see one party with two different sales management techniques.................the party of big government tyranny that's rushing us to the destruction of individual responsibility and endeavor.

It's for the above reason that I identify the problem-thinkers as "leftists," who never accept responsibility for the bad results and damage they bring to the people of the world. In fact, I'll go so far as to recognize the main difference between conservatives and communists (progressives, leftists, modern liberals, fascists, or whatever other name they try to confuse their dupes with) is that conservatives consider results to be relevant. Leftists seem only impressed by their own 'intent.'

chevy3755
06-22-2010, 10:23 AM
TOO MUCH DRAMA.......................lol

lost_cause
06-22-2010, 10:28 AM
i think my post may be partly responsible for a lot of this debate, and for that i am sorry. i don't think i conveyed my complete thought well enough, and made it too easy for one comment to be latched on to and flown with.

i see a lot of people commenting that many people think they are owed a living, and while that thought may be true, nobody should be owed anything just because of where they are born. i wasn't alluding to this at all. i don't have a beef with big corporations. i don't hate foreign manufacturing. i just have seen such a trend over my lifetime of us outsourcing technical work and i find it sad. i also find it sad that we often take the "why bother" attitude, and say that it's cheaper to do it there, so why bother to do it here. my attitude isn't driven by unemployment numbers, or national pride, it's because i have a true love of anything mechanical, and i love to build things out of any medium - wood, metal, etc, even when i'm not very good at it. it saddens me to know that we don't make a lot of things that we used to, and a lot of what has replaced it is of lower quality.

another point about the "being owed something" comment... i have seen plenty of cases where an employer throws a fit because an employee thinks he deserves more. two months later the employer throws a similar fit when the employee leaves to go work for another company and leaves them in the lurch. to be fair, you can't be angry at an employee for both of these situations. if you are, you're contradicting yourself. my family used to run a small business that employed about a dozen people, and not being a member of the business, i was able to see these things from the outside. i have also worked in foreign countries to train people for certain jobs so i have seen a little of that end of the stick too.

i will agree that the overall standard of living for the masses has gotten better, but i see a lot of people teetering on the brink right now. sure, a lot of that is from their own bad judgment calls and living beyond their means, but i also see most working families with two working parents and a lot of them at continuously more than 40 hour weeks, where a couple generations ago, many of the working class got by on one 40 hour income and and had a guaranteed retirement pension. now many people are worried too much about tomorrow and can't even think ahead far enough for retirement. i'm sure a lot of that has to do with an increased standard of living and poor habits regarding disposable income, but it's so hard to be sure of all the reasons.

the problem with debating this or any point is that if you look, you can find evidence and data to support any conclusion you want. i don't think there is a correct answer to this. i think that as a whole, we've gotten sloppy, on the personal level and the business level.

Evan
06-22-2010, 10:37 AM
For the most part trying to label people is a fool's errand. I am an environut-conservative-anti establishment-gun owning-pro capital punishment-equal opportunity-libertarian-pro human rights-global warming semi activist. My motto is Don't try to lead me, don't follow me and stay out of my way. I have worked in union shops and non union shops. I have worked in union shops that still needed a union and shops that didn't and also needed one. I have worked in shops with no union that didn't need one. Unions are big business too. There are very few sincere leftists in this world. The ones that do exist are usually very poor.

Suggested reading: Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)

If you take the time to read some of it you will be in for a big surprise.

Dave Converse
06-22-2010, 11:01 AM
For the most part trying to label people is a fool's errand......... There are very few sincere leftists in this world. I'll leave that one laying there. Since America is on the verge of total collapse from leftism (as has every society that's been foolish enough to embrace it), I'd consider that statement a real "fool's errand."


Suggested reading: Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm)

If you take the time to read some of it you will be in for a big surprise.I'm familiar with it. Thank you. I suggest you read "The Road To Serfdom" by F.A. Hayak, then read the US Constitution for confirmation that it is, in fact, a right-wing conspiracy written for the sole purpose of protecting America from modern liberalism.

jugs
06-22-2010, 12:56 PM
it is a sad state of affairs when our companies have to resort to an "assembled" clause to either appease and confuse the customers or avoid an import tariff. we've given in to the fact that if we want a tool, we won't be buying traditional american made quality anymore, because it's just too expensive to even manufacture them now. we go the route of the asian import, and then analyze the nation of origin to try to determine which is the lesser of the evils.

for the last 30+ years we've let everything be done overseas to save a buck at the manufacturing level and the consumer level, without a thought of the future generations. i barely remember a time when japanese autos were still inferior to ours, but now they are considered to be superior on many levels. the same happened with machinery. when i was younger, we joked about the quality of anything made in taiwan. now when we look for a machine tool, we choose the taiwan tool because it is likely to be a little better quality than the chinese. in a few decades, chinese made may well be the cream of the crop. the one thing to remember through all of this... when we talk about american made machinery, we're generally referring to something made in the 40's through the 80's. we're still using a lot of these tools now, but what about in 20 more years? our manufacturing legacy will be pretty well gone.

make no mistake about it - i'm not advocating that we boycott anything foreign - i'm not against foreign industry, and in some ways it's probably been the driving force to bring some developing countries into the age of the middle class.
i'm all for capitalism, but not at the cost of a poverty stricken foreign country.

what i'm against is big business as a whole. they outsource our work then sell it back to us at a huge markup, and pocket the difference as nice fat executive bonuses. rich get richer, middle class get poorer. That's how capitalism works [ to have winers you must have losers ].

& wot about the workers ? you don't mention the working/slave class that all society's have to have to function.


if they outsource for a dime on the dollar, sell it back at the same rate and take a reasonable profit. Thats altruism not capitalism.

It was tried successfully by the Quakers, but where are those company's now - all taken over by capitalists !!

sorry for the rant, i'll grab my soapbox on the way out.

My reply in red
john
:)

Rustybolt
06-22-2010, 06:47 PM
Good points doc.But I think the better questions would be to ask; "Where does wealth come from?"

Once again for those that came to class late.

Governments are consumers of wealth. People are creators of wealth.

Lafer? Proven over and over again to be true.
Free markets are wonderful things.

Fasttrack
06-22-2010, 07:14 PM
-Just a pet peeve of mine, but this oft-repeated nugget is complete horsecrap.

The supply of money is not "fixed". It's not like a company that earns $100 million a year, reduces the total stock of money by that much.

The fact of the matter is, the "poor" in the US make more money, and have a better standard of living than ever before.

And yes, that's despite record CEO salaries and hefty industry profits. When Wal-Mart earns $10 billion, do you think they keep it all in a big Scrooge McDuck style moneybin? Of course not- it's in banks (which lets banks loan it back out to others) in stocks (which helps the companies operate and expand) and other investments.

The reality is, when rich companies get richer, so do thousands of others. The much-derided 'trickle-down' economics is far truer than people give it credit for.

Doc.

While I respect your sentiment, that's not entirely true. I think you will find that the distribution of wealth in the United States has been rather lopsided in the past years. I read an article about a new study that suggested something like the top 10% of Americans own more than 70% of the Nation's net worth. It has not been this lopsided since the 1920's, IIRC.

Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with it. I just plan on being in the top 10% Screw you guys. ;) :D Just kidding.

oldbikerdude37
06-22-2010, 07:24 PM
I will say it, the biggest problem with a machine shop in America is getting them to pay the bill.
Its not easy to get $30,000 in the hole and just have enough good customers to make pay payroll.

My next job will be... I come to your house with a GUN, and repo your stuff till you pay the bill. Semi trucks, tractors,,,, I would just take them till you pay.

reggie_obe
06-22-2010, 07:30 PM
That reads a bit sarcastic. Are you thinking that maybe 'Usa' is a Chinese town or that maybe the 'assembly' consisted of putting the drill index into a cardboard box?

No, but at one time there was an USA in Japan. They were legally able (barely) label their products as Made in USA.

Arcane
06-22-2010, 07:46 PM
No, but at one time there was an USA in Japan. They were legally able (barely) label their products as Made in USA.


Not according to snopes...

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp

reggie_obe
06-22-2010, 08:45 PM
Not according to snopes...

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp

Sorry, no sale. You reference for truth is the Internet and their (Snopes) reference is a book that is no longer in print. No guarantee of the authors research methods or diligence. My reference is my (now deceased) neighbor who was a machinist (packaging machinery and gear designer) for more than 60 years. He told me that at one time he had fraudulent products in his possession that we marked as such. I'll have to contact him via a medium for more information.

Doc Nickel
06-22-2010, 08:47 PM
I think you will find that the distribution of wealth in the United States has been rather lopsided in the past years. I read an article about a new study that suggested something like the top 10% of Americans own more than 70% of the Nation's net worth. It has not been this lopsided since the 1920's, IIRC.

-The distribution of everything is "lopsided".

The top ten percent is still thirty million people. Considering something like 20% of the population of the US us under 18 years old, and only half the population in general even pays any income taxes, why is this "lopsided"?

Microsoft employs- again, if I recall correctly- something like 100,000 employees, but there's only a handful who can say they "own" the company. That's pretty "lopsided", isn't it? Does that mean that all those employees are poor, oppressed have-nots because they don't "own" the company?

Doc.

Doc Nickel
06-22-2010, 08:50 PM
Sorry, no sale. You reference for truth is the Internet and their (Snopes) reference is a book that is no longer in print.

-How about the fact that very little, if any, manufacturing goes on in Usa, and that the town was so named in the 8th Century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa,_Japan)?

Doc.

Fasttrack
06-22-2010, 09:30 PM
-The distribution of everything is "lopsided".

The top ten percent is still thirty million people. Considering something like 20% of the population of the US us under 18 years old, and only half the population in general even pays any income taxes, why is this "lopsided"?

Microsoft employs- again, if I recall correctly- something like 100,000 employees, but there's only a handful who can say they "own" the company. That's pretty "lopsided", isn't it? Does that mean that all those employees are poor, oppressed have-nots because they don't "own" the company?

Doc.

Incidentally, this was considering "families", not individuals - i.e. those under 18 or still being claimed as a dependent (students, etc) were not considered.

Don't get me wrong. I see where you're coming from and I'm not the type to b*tch about rich people having more than me. But the distribution is more lopsided now than it was in the 1950's, for instance. Just sayin' ;)

barts
06-22-2010, 11:18 PM
Lafer? Proven over and over again to be true.


If the margin tax rate was 90%, perhaps.

Obviously, if you cut taxes to zero, it will not increase revenue.
If taxes are at 100% marginal rate, revenue prob. will increase if
you cut the marginal tax rate.

With a capital gains tax rate of 15% and a peak marginal tax rate of less than 40%, we're well below the point at which tax cuts increase revenue.

- Bart

Rustybolt
06-23-2010, 08:22 AM
Given that an assertion is not a fact, I'll make one of my own.
BTW I think less taxes are a good thing. The less of my money the government has the less trouble they can cause.

My turn.

Cut the capital gains tax to zero and watch the market take off like a rocket.
How will that increase tax revenues? More money in circulation.





Keep this one thing in mind when you are thinking that income taxes are a good thing.
When congress is pondering income taxes, they aren't thinking of how much of your money they are going to take.
Congress is trying to determine how much of your money they are going to let you keep.

Rattrap
06-23-2010, 09:38 AM
"There's battle lines being drawn, nobody's right when everybody's wrong..." -Stephen Stills

Evan, your observation about unions saved me some typing. My experiences mirror yours. Sadly, any discussion about the turn of the economy in the US always has to have someone blaming only the unions.

Greed has gotten us to where we are. Not just that of CEOs, not just the workers, not just the Wall Street vultures.

Black Forest
06-23-2010, 09:43 AM
The best system that I think could be implemented for taxes is a consumption tax. The only taxes paid are on what you spend. Not on your income. This solution has no chance because of the lawyers and such that are in business to create problems so we can pay them to fix the problems they create. Just think of all the people that would no longer be needed to figure out what tax you owe.

You pay your taxes when you buy something. A sales tax as such.

If you don't have a lot of money you don't spend a lot of money and therefore you don't pay a lot of taxes. If you buy a yacht you pay a lot of taxes on the purchase. I would make no different scales. Everyone pays the same. No deductions against taxes. The system is so simple that it will never get put into practice.

A.K. Boomer
06-23-2010, 10:03 AM
I don't understand the problem. The unions in USA created many of the manufacturing outsourcing events.

I think just because you can reproduce doesn't mean you should. Too many people think they are owed a living.

I took all the risks in my investments and in business. When a worker loses a job he goes and gets a new one. When a business owner goes broke he loses everything. If I take the risks I feel I am entitled to the gains.

My father had a small business with thirty men working for him. Many for a long time 20+ years. He paid for weddings, operations, college for a lot of the kids of his workers. Some paid it back, most not. Then the workers decided they were going to join the union and make it a union shop. My father did not want the union in his shop for many reasons. The workers actually made more money than they would by union pay scale.

So anyway, they had meetings and such and finally they had a vote to go union. My dad was at this meeting. When they finished he asked if that was their final answer about the union. They said yes. Then he told them the company was closed and they were all terminated. He told them to leave all the company trucks in the yard and not drive them home like they normally did. Call their wives to come pick them up.

He then told them he only kept the company going for the workers and when they think they are going to tell him how to run his company then that was not an option for him. The enjoyment of running the company was over. Company closed.

His three longest employee's that were with him when he started the company he helped them to set up their own company and gave them all his contracts and financed their startup. Those three voted no on the union deal and tried to tell the other workers that they had it better how it was. The others didn't listened to them and told them they had the "right" to go union. They told them it would not go over with my father. They bowed up and said my father couldn't stop them.

I learned that lesson when I was very young. It was a great lesson.


Awesome awesome post,,, people need to be reminded just who it is that's feeding their face (or not!)

Your Dad sounds like one cool dude and has balls of steel, more power to him...

harty
06-24-2010, 11:46 AM
I am not from the usa but the story is the same every where i am sure
there is always 3 sides to a story there's your side and there's there side and then there's the truth
some where in the middle is what really happens

you cant have employers without employees and you cant have employees without employers some are good some are bad you just need to find the right one for you

tyrone shewlaces
06-24-2010, 10:48 PM
Kumbaya

..