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Evan
06-28-2010, 11:05 AM
I have reported the motorcycle scam to RECOL https://www.recol.ca/intro.aspx?lang=en

I phoned in the information this am and they will be analyzing the site as well as digging through the closed thread for more information. I don't expect to hear back from them as that is not part of their protocol.

We shall see what happens. I will not be reporting this to the ISP for now as they want the site left up for analysis.

Black_Moons
06-28-2010, 11:45 AM
Can anyone sum up the scam? I really wasent paying attention to that thread...

Tony Ennis
06-28-2010, 11:59 AM
Guy has an idea for a innovative motorcycle, has renderings but no prototype, talks crazy technology, probably looking for investors.

Black_Moons
06-28-2010, 12:00 PM
Tony Ennis: Oh, so hes like us but hasent figured out how to weld yet. Shame.

goose
06-28-2010, 12:04 PM
What's RECOL ? Is that like the BBB ? It says it includes private commercial organizations. I know in the states if you contact the state's attorney general's office, all you get is a complaint form to fill out at your leisure, and then nothing ever happens.

My humble guess is unless a crime has occurred, it amounts to nothing. (Motorcycle guy without a prototype is a crime in Canada?) As for the ISP, I don't they'd care, unless he's doing kiddie porn.


Gary

Mcgyver
06-28-2010, 12:37 PM
I phoned in the information this am and they will be analyzing the site as well as digging through the closed thread for more information..

I'm sure they'll get right on that

lazlo
06-28-2010, 12:52 PM
Guy has an idea for a innovative motorcycle, has renderings but no prototype, talks crazy technology, probably looking for investors.

Agreed -- I don't see how that's a scam. Yes, he's making wild claims that he can't back up, but that's how all startups work. You won't get investors unless you make Pie in the Sky claims.

Tony is obviously a marketing guy -- in the semiconductor world their formal job function is called "Product Evangelist". Their job function is just as important as the engineers.

S_J_H
06-28-2010, 12:58 PM
Evan,
Good! Looking over archived versions of the website you can see how the con grew until he was finally accepting investment money from the public.
This is a 3+ year old link showing the exact same renders of the phony motorcycle used to fool the naive into handing him "investment" money.
It appears he only has a few 3d renders to use for his scam.
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/02/05/r-bike-shape-shifting-motorcycle/
Toward the bottom of the page he shows more detachment with the bizarre claim that the Teutul's from the Popular TV show "American Chopper" will be building one of his motorcycles on a episode of their TV show-


It will be tested and ready to install by late 08.
The first bikes are for the Militaries and the Bike Shows,
We also promised 2 bikes for Warner Brothers and others in L.A.
Orange County Choppers show will be assembling one on TV.
(almost half the parts are Harley-World aftermarket parts,
so you will be able to service the bike at any Harley Dealer).

He also states the bike can cost upward of $120,000:eek:

This is not just some kid having fun as a Internet troll.

At least the long thread here should show up on a google search and help alert people who may fall for this scam as well as the other investment scams he has going.

Steve

topct
06-28-2010, 02:30 PM
Is he really accepting deposits and money from investors?

Or is he just saying he is in an attempt to make the story board complete?

If he is playing the game only up to that point of the exchange and no exchange takes place or if there is no way provided for that exchange to take place. Is that still a crime?

Just curious.

Evan
06-28-2010, 02:53 PM
That is for the RCMP to find out. I have dealt with them before on a related type of matter and I can tell you they take it very seriously. It will be investigated, especially right now because Canada has been gaining a reputation as a haven for certain types of internet scams. The pressure is on to shut them down.


Tony is obviously a marketing guy

Tony is a fruitcake.

lazlo
06-28-2010, 03:01 PM
Tony is obviously a marketing guy

Tony is a fruitcake.

Not a lot of difference.

http://people.brunel.ac.uk/~icsrsss/dilbert/jargon.jpg

Evan
06-28-2010, 03:13 PM
My humble guess is unless a crime has occurred, it amounts to nothing. (Motorcycle guy without a prototype is a crime in Canada?)

He (?) isn't a motorcycle guy. That's painfully obvious from the discussions. What he is is a scammer with a completely bogus web site that is soliciting investors and buyers for a product that doesn't exist produced by a company that doen't exist in manufacturing facilities that don't exist using phone numbers that don't exist and headed by a PHD physicist that has degrees that don't exist along with employees that don't exist.

radkins
06-28-2010, 03:26 PM
I finished reading that entire thread earlier this morning and it certainly should be an eye opener to any investor who might be thinking about this company(?). Because of where that discussion was headed from early on anyone in his place with an ounce of intelligence would have dropped it before it got out of hand and destroyed his creditability, which it most certainly did! One thing is for certain and that is Tony, or whoever he is, sure came to the wrong place if his intention was to promote a scam! :D

dp
06-28-2010, 03:33 PM
One thing is for certain and that is Tony, or whoever he is, sure came to the wrong place if his intention was to promote a scam! :D

That's true for every thread he's done this in, all over the Internet.

goose
06-28-2010, 04:00 PM
He (?) isn't a motorcycle guy. That's painfully obvious from the discussions. What he is is a scammer with a completely bogus web site that is soliciting investors and buyers for a product that doesn't exist produced by a company that doen't exist in manufacturing facilities that don't exist using phone numbers that don't exist and headed by a PHD physicist that has degrees that don't exist along with employees that don't exist.


So ? That comes close to describing half the "business" guys I've ever met ! :D

Anyways, I don't know anything about motorcycles, and I don't know anything about his company, (if there is one,) but I recall when Indian Motorcycle Company was just getting started (about 15 years ago?) for the longest time all they had was a fancy DVD and alot of marketing hype and promises to make up for their lack of anything solid.


Gary

gnm109
06-28-2010, 04:41 PM
I don't know about the Panther Motorcycle company but there was a gigantic scam with regard to the first re-start of the Indian Motorcycle Company back in the early nineties. For convenience, we can call that one "Indian II, Indian I being the real Indian Motocycle (sic) Co. that went out of busines in Springfield, Mass in 1953 after some 50 years in business as a major rival to Harley-Davidson.

A man named Philip Zanghi was promoting a revival of Indian and managed to collect some $800,000 before he was indicted and subsequently convicted in United States Federal Court. I understand that, unlike the new "Panther" motorcycle, he actually had one or two machines that wer cobbled up to show potential investors. No one ever rode one nor did they ever hear onw run, AFAIK. He was convicted of 12 counts of securities fraud, three counts of tax evasion, two counts of filing false corporate income tax returns and six counts of money laundering. He was looking at many years in prison and multiple thousands of fines and restitution.

From a news release I found on Google:

"Zanghi faces a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison and
a maximum fine of $1,000,000, or both, for each of the 12
securities fraud counts; a maximum sentence of five years in
prison and a maximum fine of $250,000, or both, for each of
the three tax evasion counts; a maximum of three years in
prison and a maximum fine of $250,000, or both, for each of
the false corporate tax return charges; a maximum sentence of
20 years in prison and a maximum fine of $500,000, or both,
for two of the money laundering counts; and a maximum sentence
of 10 years in prison and a maximum fine of $250,000, or both,
for the remaining four money laundering counts, the statement
said.
Senior U.S. District Judge Frank H. Freedman scheduled
sentencing for December 9. " (1997)


Here are a couple of links. There are dozens more on Google Groups.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/ba99fcba98453f85/664d9bf846e9ef9?q=Indian+Motorcycle+Prison

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles.harley/browse_thread/thread/ceb25e30258e4656/7adab25a93d1c268?q=Philip+Zanghi

I understand that he subsquently ran away to Spain but I was unable to determine whether they ever caught him.

Then there was Indian III, the company that actually started up and actually built a pretty nice bike until they ran out of money. While not a scam in any sense of the word, it gives one an idea of the difficulty that even a legitimate company can have if there is insufficient capital and sales to keep going.

Indian III was based in Gilroy, California. When they failied, all of the employees were let go with little notice and the machinery was subsequently auctioned off.

At this time, there is yet another Indian, owned by Stellican Ltd. that would be Indian IV by my count. They have done some advertising and there was an article in Cycle World a while back but nothing new has been heard from them lately.

I'm not counting the use of the Indian name on foreign bikes by Flloyd Cylmer and others. The history is very jumbled for about 30 plus years after Indian I went out of business. That use of the name was unlicensed and unfortunate since it only amounted to re-badged minibikes and some Royal Infields. I once owned a Royal Enfield Bullet with Indian on the gas tank. I dubbed it "Royal Indianfield". LOL.

Also, I won't talk about Excelsior Henderson much since I don't know anything other than they also went belly up after a few hundred bikes had been produced. It wasn't a scam, just under-financed and cursed with hard-headed management that had a poor business plan at the outset. The bikes were well-built if rather unusual-looking with a srange retro front fork. It looked like an inverted pogo stick.

I never rode one but I did get to sit on one at Hollister, California at their booth about ten years ago. The State of Minnesota had loaned them startup money, something less than 10 million IIRC and their debt was liquidated when the company closed and also laid off the entire staff.

An interesting side note on Indian II occurred a while back with the conviction of the former CEO for conspiracy with regard to tampering with documents on a motorcycle.

http://www.caimag.com/forum/f22/ex-gilroy-indian-motorcycle-ceo-prison-3832.html

Here's the story on Indian, other than on the Zanghi caper, for those who have the energy to read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_(motorcycle)

Anyway, as far as I can see, anyone who invests in a new, startup motorcycle company, even if it has a familiar name, is just asking for it. JMO.

Evan
06-28-2010, 04:56 PM
What clearly makes this a scam is that the company that is soliciting investment does not exist. It isn't a startup trying to forward finance their product. Not only is there no product but there is nothing to finance. The choice of the name Panther Motorcycles is obviously not an accident. If you Google Panther Motorcycles you will turn up thousands of hits, most of which are owner's clubs and related sites for the original Panther bikes. This makes it much harder to verify the non-existence of the scam company. One of the key items in that regard is that the name "Panther Motorcycles" has never been registered in Canada in the entire history of the trademark registry and still has not today.

goose
06-28-2010, 05:07 PM
gnm109, thank you, I was unaware of those particulars of the Indian history.




"In 1990, Zanghi came to Springfield with the claim that he
was going to "bring back the Indian Motocycle," Stern said,
and instead, Stern said, he defrauded a dozen investors out of
over $800,000 by selling them bogus stock in the venture.
The U.S. Attorney said evidence during the trial in "


that would have pre-dated what I alluded to. I recall about 1996-1998 range sitting with my cousin (Harley dude) in his home watching a DVD (or maybe VCR tape) on the then rebirth of the Indian line. Featured what you'd expect, as in vintage stills of Indian motorcycles, head banger music, maybe a prototype or mock-up, promises of big plans, and how they were taking pre-orders and looking for investors. It was about 20 - 25 minutes long. I was skeptical. I didn't know they went bankrupt, (looks like I was correct in my skeptism.)

I assume, (dangerous, I know) that somewhere along the line, ownership of the Indian trademark(s), was sold off as companys were liquidated, and have ended up with the current incarnation.


Gary

topct
06-28-2010, 05:34 PM
There will be no proof that any money was accepted. Because it wasn't.

I may be sticking my neck out here. But I think the entire purpose of their bit of internet theater was to show how involved a real scam can be. Perhaps a little crude but it shows that if presented to the unknowing it would be easy to have a fool part with their money.

The Artful Bodger
06-28-2010, 05:39 PM
Even if money was accepted I doubt that would prove fraud. Real proof would be that there a clear intention to never produce any bikes, rather hard to prove I would think.

Evan
06-28-2010, 05:58 PM
Even if money was accepted I doubt that would prove fraud. Real proof would be that there a clear intention to never produce any bikes, rather hard to prove I would think.

Not having a company seems to be a pretty good clue. The intent to defraud is based on past to present evidence, not future intent, obviously. :rolleyes:

PeteF
06-28-2010, 06:36 PM
Even if money was accepted I doubt that would prove fraud. Real proof would be that there a clear intention to never produce any bikes, rather hard to prove I would think.

I'm no lawyer but I'm not sure that's the case. An "investor" makes his/her decision based on the information provided. If an organisation says, for example, "we have a working prototype" when in fact they do not, that would be misrepresentation. If they say "we intend to take over the world with our product", that is not. The former is a statement of fact upon which any reasonable person could be expected to rely, the latter an expectation of the future, about which nobody can be certain. You'll often see examples of this with more sophisticated financial products, they will often have large headlines exclaiming their exceptional past performances (... well ok, not so much lately :D ), but down the bottom will be a disclaimer stating past performance is no indication of future return ...

In the situation here, the person behind it made all manner of statements of fact, both here and on the web site. Maybe they're true, but I think it's safe to say they were not. In many crimes it is not necessary for the actual crime to occur, simply that there was the intent.

Anyway, that's my take on it. Personally I applaud Evan's efforts, goodness knows there's enough marketing hype we need to wade through every day without seeing more of this type of tripe, particularly when money starts changing hands. I don't think "tony" came to the forum with the intention of necessarily finding "customers" here, instead stumbled across the thread and is simply absorbed in his own (fantasy?) world.

Evan
06-28-2010, 06:52 PM
The evidence isn't just the web site and statements made here. There is plenty of commentary on other web sites either in interview format or promo material that has been published that makes it seem that not only is there a prototype but delivery of actual motorcycles is imminent from newly built manufacturing capability. For example, the "Denver operation" has a contact phone number on the web site that leads to nothing or at best an unlisted number (probably nothing). That alone is sufficient to establish intent to deceive.

The web site speaks of the product in the past and present tense. as if it actually exists. If you are presenting a product that you intend to produce some day then speaking of it in a manner that leads one to believe that there is an actual product is a deceptive marketing practise. Of course if you have no intent to produce it is is clearly fraud. If you claim intent to produce it but have no means to do so then claiming that it will be delivered "very soon" is also fraud. This lack of intent can be easily proven if you made such claims in the past but have never fulfilled them.

That is why it is illegal to post a permanent "Going out of business" sign on a store.

You actually must be able to deliver what you promise or at the very least have the capability to do so within a reasonable time. The definition of "reasonable time" is laid out in various laws that govern the marketing of goods and services.

Ken_Shea
06-28-2010, 07:00 PM
He said that investors down payment was put into escrow, and would be refunded any time up to the production of that customers bike. If there was ever any money received from potential purchasers, it seems reasonable that there would be paper work to prove that, now, if that money remains in escrow, or money was in escrow and returned to any customer upon demand, that would seem to make the case of fraud even more difficult.
All I read would seem to me to be a long way off from fraud.

An excerpt from the text of the "Legal definition of fraud"

"A statement of belief is not a statement of fact and thus is not fraudulent. Puffing, or the expression of a glowing opinion by a seller, is likewise not fraudulent."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

John Stevenson
06-28-2010, 07:03 PM
He needs reporting just for being an idiot.

.

Mcgyver
06-28-2010, 07:06 PM
He needs reporting just for being an idiot.

.

you need to be more specific

lost_cause
06-28-2010, 07:10 PM
He needs reporting just for being an idiot.

.

if that's a crime, i know where i'll be for the rest of my life.

lost_cause
06-28-2010, 07:13 PM
speaking of internet scams... i wanted one of these, then i found out it was a fraud :D

http://www.dragoneye5000.com/

Ken_Shea
06-28-2010, 07:16 PM
speaking of internet scams... i wanted one of these, then i found out it was a fraud :D

http://www.dragoneye5000.com/

I'd get your things in order !

oldbikerdude37
06-28-2010, 07:17 PM
What a pathetic thread, a troll or wanabe troll played you (and many forum members) like a fiddle and you flip out.
Even I bet you were the kid that got off the school bus and ran home so the little girls did not beat you up.

Nothing will come from it, the internet has 99,000,000 jerks that are way worse than the virtual bike builder, your complaint is #99,000,001 on that list.

Just let it go, it makes a smart and talented guy like you look very petty and thin skinned. get back to machining trick stuff like you have been, the internet does not need you to act like a nanny

gnm109
06-28-2010, 07:37 PM
gnm109, thank you, I was unaware of those particulars of the Indian history.






that would have pre-dated what I alluded to. I recall about 1996-1998 range sitting with my cousin (Harley dude) in his home watching a DVD (or maybe VCR tape) on the then rebirth of the Indian line. Featured what you'd expect, as in vintage stills of Indian motorcycles, head banger music, maybe a prototype or mock-up, promises of big plans, and how they were taking pre-orders and looking for investors. It was about 20 - 25 minutes long. I was skeptical. I didn't know they went bankrupt, (looks like I was correct in my skeptism.)

I assume, (dangerous, I know) that somewhere along the line, ownership of the Indian trademark(s), was sold off as companys were liquidated, and have ended up with the current incarnation.


Gary

Yes, it really is interesting. It's particularly poignant for me becase when I was a young kid, just getting started, I worked for two of the Indian dealers in Chicago, Ill. This was after the fall of the company in the mid 1950's. In one, I was just a cleanup person, doing parts and sweeping the floor and later at the other, I worked for a time as a mechanic.

By then, the Indian dealers had for the most part gone independent, as multi-line British motorcycle dealerships. They imported whatever they could get their hands on, bikes such as Vincent, AJS-Matchless, Velocette, Royal Enfield, James BSA, Ariel and the like. Even that was tough going at the time.

As far as I'm concerned, the Indian Company was gone forever in 1953. These later attempts to revive the marque have so far been futile and costly for all concerned. I suspect that the latest iteration is headed out as well since nothing has been heard from them lately. That remains to be seen. Even if it suceeds, it won't be an original Indian motorcycle, but something else.

By the way, the hornbook definition of fraud is Scienter, a knowledge of wrongful acts. In order to prove fraud, particularly where money and investments are involved, it's necessary to show that the tortfeasor acted with scienter. It's not enough to show that someone merely lost money.

General fraud has numerous manifestations but, generally speaking, to prove it one must show that the actor intentionally deceived the victim, either with a misrepresentation or omission upon which the victim relied. The misrepresentation or omission had to do with material facts, that is, facts upon which people would ordinarily rely to make, say, investment decisions. The fraud is complete when the victim is subsequently injured by reliance on the material facts.

It bears repeating that Investing in a company with no roots, no history, no product on line and uncertainty as to the principals is fraught with danger.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

Evan
06-28-2010, 08:01 PM
An excerpt from a posting by Dr. Albert Binder who is clearly a sock puppet of the scammer.



I spent just under $60k for mine. I designed it myself on their BYOB form.
The waiting list is long and I don’t expect mine until next Fall (2009), but it is well worth it. The head of Special Vehicles for the Army pointed me toward this bike and I could not be happier that the best made bike in the world is Made-In-America !

http://www.thebikergene.com/custom-bikes/variable-geometry-r-bike-shape-shifts-to-adapt-to-riding-conditions/


The Panther starts at around $17,000 and comes with more than 100 options. It was designed by IDS-Research. IDS (Interactive Design Studios) is a worldwide technology research and design group.

Erik Brinkman is chair of Panther Motorcycles.

http://www.emsresponder.com/web/online/Industry-Wire---New-Products/Feedback-Sought-on-EMS-Motorcycle/11$11928


He isn't chair of anything and the only thing that comes with 100 options is the entirely fictional image.

This is from an archived image of the website 3 years ago.


BUYERS
Q: When and where will the first bikes be sold ?

A: Production begins in late 2008 after the drivetrain is tested.
those first bikes are for the military, the shows and Hollywood
Public production will begin with 2009.




I just nailed the exact name and location of the scammer. He had a PDF image online 3 years ago that has his name and phone number on the bottom of the rendering. His home address is on Dallas road in Victoria.

chrisfournier
06-28-2010, 08:27 PM
I can tell you that as the lastest Panther Motorcycles preferred shares holder I am eagerly waiting for my complimentary Corporate Chaps and temporary tattoo kit to arrive in the mail. Live free or Die.

Elninio
06-28-2010, 08:34 PM
I have reported the motorcycle scam to RECOL https://www.recol.ca/intro.aspx?lang=en

I phoned in the information this am and they will be analyzing the site as well as digging through the closed thread for more information. I don't expect to hear back from them as that is not part of their protocol.

We shall see what happens. I will not be reporting this to the ISP for now as they want the site left up for analysis.

Make a backup of the site; fetch all the files with wget or curl.

PeteF
06-28-2010, 08:39 PM
What a pathetic thread, a troll or wanabe troll played you (and many forum members) like a fiddle and you flip out.
Even I bet you were the kid that got off the school bus and ran home so the little girls did not beat you up.

Nothing will come from it, the internet has 99,000,000 jerks that are way worse than the virtual bike builder, your complaint is #99,000,001 on that list.

Just let it go, it makes a smart and talented guy like you look very petty and thin skinned. get back to machining trick stuff like you have been, the internet does not need you to act like a nanny

Nice attitude you got there. A guy comes up here with something that appears to be a scam to relieve people of their "investment" money, and a forum member goes out of his way to not only show it as such but report it to the appropriate authorities so innocent people people who may not have any specific knowledge of this field don't get duped, and you rubbish him. Nice!

oldtiffie
06-28-2010, 09:00 PM
Whether the person referred to is a scammer or whether there is or was an attempt to scam - or not - I just don't know and really don't care too much.

I would not be the least bit surprised if at least some of the effort here was directed more toward vengeance or a cure for battered and bruised egos than it is toward justice.

If I lose an argument or "discussion", or get scammed etc. I just shrug my shoulders, put it down to experience and move on.

ligito
06-28-2010, 09:01 PM
"Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stevenson
He needs reporting just for being an idiot.

.

you need to be more specific"


He needs reporting just specifically for being an idiot.:)

oldtiffie
06-28-2010, 09:04 PM
Perhaps so.

But he'd only be one of a long list.

Evan
06-28-2010, 09:22 PM
I would not be the least bit surprised if at least some of the effort here was directed more toward vengeance or a cure for battered and bruised egos than it is toward justice.


Hardly. It's a hobby of mine. This isn't the first and it won't be the last. If the RCMP decide it isn't actionable then nothing will happen. If they do take action the site will disappear. I like turning off websites that leech on the gullible and the great majority of internet users that are unable to defend themselves. This mainly came about from nearly ten years of cleaning up infected computers of my customers. It is a small form of payback.

wierdscience
06-28-2010, 09:33 PM
If the guy were legit he would have a working prototype,he does not.

If it was feasible to build and could be built and marketed for a profit even in this economy he would have no trouble finding venture capital.

Instead has has some renderings,a dead end website and now zero credibility.

Willy
06-28-2010, 10:01 PM
Whether the person referred to is a scammer or whether there is or was an attempt to scam - or not - I just don't know and really don't care too much.

I would not be the least bit surprised if at least some of the effort here was directed more toward vengeance or a cure for battered and bruised egos than it is toward justice.

If I lose an argument or "discussion", or get scammed etc. I just shrug my shoulders, put it down to experience and move on.

Tell me Tiffie, if it was your widowed mother or sister who just invested half of her life savings into Erik's little web would you still just shrug your shoulders?
Those must be pretty big shoulders.:rolleyes:

oldtiffie
06-28-2010, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
Whether the person referred to is a scammer or whether there is or was an attempt to scam - or not - I just don't know and really don't care too much.

I would not be the least bit surprised if at least some of the effort here was directed more toward vengeance or a cure for battered and bruised egos than it is toward justice.

If I lose an argument or "discussion", or get scammed etc. I just shrug my shoulders, put it down to experience and move on.


Tell me Tiffie, if it was your widowed mother or sister who just invested half of her life savings into Erik's little web would you still just shrug your shoulders?
Those must be pretty big shoulders.:rolleyes:

Willy.

If my twice-widowed mother (she'd be 94 if she were alive) was scammed, then it was her decision and on her own head. My three sisters (60>65) likewise - same with my four brothers. They would all tell you in no uncertain terms to mind your own business while they just put it down to bad luck, poor decision-making, and lesson/s learned and got on and made the best of what they had. My father (who would be 106 if he were alive) would be considerably more terse and to the point.

I don't know if my shoulders are big or not but they do carry my loads as they are not teflon-coated.

In short - "ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances".

oldtiffie
06-28-2010, 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
I would not be the least bit surprised if at least some of the effort here was directed more toward vengeance or a cure for battered and bruised egos than it is toward justice.


Hardly. It's a hobby of mine. This isn't the first and it won't be the last. If the RCMP decide it isn't actionable then nothing will happen. If they do take action the site will disappear. I like turning off websites that leech on the gullible and the great majority of internet users that are unable to defend themselves. This mainly came about from nearly ten years of cleaning up infected computers of my customers. It is a small form of payback.
Evan.

Who the hell appointed or asked you to be their guardian angel - or saviour - or the internet version of Don Quixote? aka "Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Monumento_a_Cervantes_%28Madrid%29_10.jpg/200px-Monumento_a_Cervantes_%28Madrid%29_10.jpg
Bronze statues of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, at the Plaza de España in Madrid

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Quixo-panza.jpg/220px-Quixo-panza.jpg
Don Quixote, his horse Rocinante and his squire Sancho Panza after an unsuccessful attack on a windmill.

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote


I like turning off websites that leech on the gullible and the great majority of internet users that are unable to defend themselves.

And who the hell are you to decide who needs your "help" and who you will deign to accord it to - and who you will not?

I have no issue at all for or if you do it for your own interests and whether or not you choose to tell us of it.

But is a "bit rich" and bloody rude to impose yourself into other peoples private affairs without either asking or getting their consent.

It smacks of arrogance and "knowing better" and "knowing whats best" for others - as well as assuming and being the prime Inquisitor and Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Liger Zero
06-28-2010, 11:39 PM
I too have reported the whole *anther Motorcycle thing to various authorities on my end as well.

One thing I do not stand for is predatory salesman running scams of this nature. I have been played too many times in my life by "agents" promising me jobs, been played too many times by employers promising me the world when they are only looking to finish a rush order.

I can't stand this type of person. At all. I've learned to spot them at interviews, I've learned to spot them in casual conversation. The fact that you would build your business, your livelihood on a web of lies... it is morally repugnant to me.

What *ony was doing was only one step removed from the typical Nigerian Scam. He was playing us with phony technobabble and taunts designed to goad us into sending him money so that he would "prove" his claims.

Nothing I haven't seen before. I've seen this sort of thing on every single large forum I've been to over the years.

Willy
06-28-2010, 11:59 PM
Willy.

If my twice-widowed mother (she'd be 94 if she were alive) was scammed, then it was her decision and on her own head. My three sisters (60>65) likewise - same with my four brothers. They would all tell you in no uncertain terms to mind your own business while they just put it down to bad luck, poor decision-making, and lesson/s learned and got on and made the best of what they had. My father (who would be 106 if he were alive) would be considerably more terse and to the point.

I don't know if my shoulders are big or not but they do carry my loads as they are not teflon-coated.

In short - "ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances".

Tiffie when I said " your widowed mother or sister ", I meant it as a generalization, as I know you are probably old enough to not have parents that are still alive. Nevertheless if it were me, (and no I don't have a sister or parents that are still alive either), I would be concerned enough for their well being that I would make it my business.

It's called caring.

That and I don't want anybody moving in with me.:D

Willy
06-29-2010, 12:00 AM
Evan.

Who the hell appointed or asked you to be their guardian angel - or saviour - or the internet version of Don Quixote? aka "Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha"?............

And who the hell are you to decide who needs your "help" and who you will deign to accord it to - and who you will not?

I have no issue at all for or if you do it for your own interests and whether or not you choose to tell us of it.

But is a "bit rich" and bloody rude to impose yourself into other peoples private affairs without either asking or getting their consent.

It smacks of arrogance and "knowing better" and "knowing whats best" for others - as well as assuming and being the prime Inquisitor and Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Tiffie if I had a dollar every time you entered into someone else's thread asking George to "please lock or delete this thread" for the protection of the membership, because in your opinion the tone or subject matter had no redeemable value, I'd be rich.
So who are you to tell Evan what his morals should be?

Let Evan do what he feels is right in his heart and don't expect the whole world to accept you standards. I don't remember Evan saying that he was doing this on your behalf.

Edited for spelling.

S_J_H
06-29-2010, 12:07 AM
Wow Tiff, I'm a bit surprised by your attitude.

The guy is running a big scam, he came here and plopped it down into the forums lap.

Most people when looking out their window and seeing a burglar trying to climb through a neighbors window would probably give the police a quick call.
That's all Evan is doing and I totally agree with that.

No doubt a large % of the population would not want
to get involved.
It's that mindset that allows people to walk right by and ignore a mugger stealing from an old lady.
"just did not want to get involved", "It"s not my problem", It's none of my business". But then some of us would jump right in and try and help.
Which are you? I'll bet you would not ignore the situation Tiff.

Nothing wrong with alerting authorities when you see something that can potentially hurt other people in some way.

We have all seen and heard the tales of some lonely senior citizen with no family getting duped of their entire life's savings by the charming con artist.
I find it hard to fault anybody who spends a few minutes of their own time to alert authorities to an obvious web based scam.
The internet is the playing field for the con-man now and it has made their game even easier.
Steve

Just for you Tiff :D -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flim-Flam_Man

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 12:19 AM
Old men and women are not going to buy or invest in that sort of thing, here is who or better yet, what is going to invest in something like that, yuppies, screw yuppies !

Education is expensive, let them learn from experience.

dp
06-29-2010, 12:34 AM
I always wondered what kind of people walked past my epileptic sister as she lay for nearly an hour dying on a sidewalk in Berkeley. They may have been students, professors, house wives, bus drivers, or maybe machinists. What they had in common is they didn't care.

Someone finally called for help but life in her had slipped away on that spot.

When ever I return to Berkeley and have time, I chalk out her outline on that sidewalk as best I remember it from the police report, and write a note next to it. "Her name was Sharon".

uncle pete
06-29-2010, 12:36 AM
John,
LOL, Good one. If someone wants to make a billion $$$ then develop a urine test to detect stupidity and or criminal intent. This would also be great right around election time.

Pete

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 12:40 AM
That's major, major sad Dennis, however I don't see the connection or to what/whom you are comparing :confused:

dp
06-29-2010, 12:45 AM
That's major, major sad Dennis, however I don't see the connection or to what/whom you are comparing :confused:

I'm not surprised.

oldbikerdude37
06-29-2010, 12:47 AM
Old men and women are not going to buy or invest in that sort of thing, here is who or better yet, what is going to invest in something like that, yuppies, screw yuppies !

Education is expensive, let them learn from experience.

Oh yes

the boob who invents bikes in fantasy land has taken you dopes for a long ride.

Sorry guys , thats the way I see it.

You bitter folkes need to mellow out and write it off as a troll. The noobs will see this thread and think you guys are a pack of cannibals.

I say this thread should be locked do to legal threats to people. many sites will ban you just for that.

good day gentlemen.

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 12:53 AM
I'm not surprised.
Dennis,
You think you are the only one on this damn forum with a tragedy/s in their life, me too, a major tragedy, but you know what, I deal with it and keep it too myself.

You don't know squat about me or what I do, feel, give, or donate, but I can assure you my wife and I live by more then "me, my wife, our two kids, us four no more" philosophy.


.

RB211
06-29-2010, 12:56 AM
The entire thread was a great learning experience for me.
If it quacks like a duck, it is a duck!
Evan sometimes acts like an assistant moderator, that is fine with me. The man has been most helpful to this board and all the members here. Ego's get ruffled, that is life.

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 01:00 AM
Oh yes

the boob who invents bikes in fantasy land has taken you dopes for a long ride.

Sorry guys , thats the way I see it.

You bitter folkes need to mellow out and write it off as a troll. The noobs will see this thread and think you guys are a pack of cannibals.

I say this thread should be locked do to legal threats to people. many sites will ban you just for that.

good day gentlemen.

Ah, good to know, everyone's a dope but you
Truth is no one give a rat's butt about how you see it, or how I see it or anyone else for that matter, I don't post here to make a statement just share my views. But I have never called anyone stupid for not agreeing with me.
You need to get a grip on how important you are.

oldbikerdude37
06-29-2010, 01:03 AM
Ah, good to know, everyone's a dope but you
Truth is no one give a rat's butt about how you see it, or how I see it or anyone else for that matter, I don't post here to make a statement just share my views. But I have never called anyone stupid for not agreeing with me.
You need to get a grip on how important you are.

A perfect example of snotty know it all right there. thanks Mr wizzard.

you make the forum look bad sir, im sorry to say.

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 01:10 AM
A perfect example of snotty know it all right there. thanks Mr wizzard.

you make the forum look bad sir, im sorry to say.

Maybe you didn't read it correctly the first time, lets be honest here, no one gives a "rat's butt" what you think, and if you recall, I included myself, so once again, get a grip on how important what you think or what you feel is.

You can share what you think with out calling people dopes.
Well, I can, perhaps you can't.

oldbikerdude37
06-29-2010, 01:13 AM
Maybe you didn't read it correctly the first time, lets be honest here, no one gives a "rat's butt" what you think, and if you recall, I included myself, so once again, get a grip on how important what you think or what you feel is.

You can share what you think with out calling people dopes.
Well, I can, perhaps you can't.

dude you need drugs, tony the magic bike guy is right about some of you guys.

have you talked to your doctor? please do..

dockrat
06-29-2010, 01:18 AM
GEEEEZ for fück sakes!!! Give it up already! Go out to the shop and machine something

RB211
06-29-2010, 01:19 AM
dude you need drugs, tony the magic bike guy is right about some of you guys.

have you talked to your doctor? please do..
Oldbikerdude, as an observer, I'd say your behavior right now is that of a troll, and you are hurting your own image on this forum by acting as such.

What you are doing is causing tension. You could give constructive criticism instead of flaming people, and perhaps even build some respect.

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 01:22 AM
GEEEEZ for fück sakes!!! Give it up already! Go out to the shop and machine something

Too late for that, all I have time for now is arguing :D

"for fück sakes!!!" what on this earth does that mean??

oldbikerdude37
06-29-2010, 01:23 AM
Oldbikerdude, as an observer, I'd say your behavior right now is that of a troll, and you are hurting your own image on this forum by acting as such.

What you are doing is causing tension. You could give constructive criticism instead of flaming people, and perhaps even build some respect.

Well im sorry if I hurt your tiny little fealings. KISS KISS

oldbikerdude37
06-29-2010, 01:28 AM
GEEEEZ for fück sakes!!! Give it up already! Go out to the shop and machine something

the wise man says..

yea lets do that. thumbs up to you. :D

dp
06-29-2010, 01:30 AM
Dennis,
You think you are the only one on this damn forum with a tragedy/s in their life

I've said nothing about you - I've only said I'm not surprised by what you said. I wasn't.

This thread reminded me of a story and I told it. Nothing more. I've just spent the last 45 minutes cruising Berkeley on Google Streets. The place hasn't changed much since I left.

RB211
06-29-2010, 01:35 AM
I've said nothing about you - I've only said I'm not surprised by what you said. I wasn't.

This thread reminded me of a story and I told it. Nothing more. I've just spent the last 45 minutes cruising Berkeley on Google Streets. The place hasn't changed much since I left. I drive around Berkeley sometimes, can't stand it very much! Usually when I get lost from leaving Tilden Park. Nothing like going down a curvy road to find that there is a big cement plant pot blocking the way out...

uncle pete
06-29-2010, 01:37 AM
Evan,
I, Along with a large percentage here should thank you. I once read something that was reported to have been said by a well known con man "ANYBODY CAN BE CONNED, YOU JUST NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE RIGHT BAIT IS" If you have a minor hobby of exposing these guys then I for one am happy as hell with that. I would never like to be taken and it really pisses me off when I read about the more gullible losing money to a person that is far too lazy to earn their way in society.

For the person that still draws chalk outlines on the sidewalk, Maybe someone else in that location will understand along with myself. I'd like to think that I would do the same if that ever happened to my family.

Yeah there are 99,000,000 other rip off artists on the internet, But maybe there's about to be one less. That at least is a start. Have we as a society become so jaded that when someone try's to rip people off, We just shrug our shoulders and say "well what are you gonna do". Sorry, But I thought far higher of all the members here an hr. ago.

Pete

dp
06-29-2010, 01:39 AM
I drive around Berkeley sometimes, can't stand it very much! Usually when I get lost from leaving Tilden Park. Nothing like going down a curvy road to find that there is a big cement plant pot blocking the way out...

Yep - they did all that after I left. I fear my old '56 Buick would not have survived them. It had a 3-speed floor shift and I went through two clutches in my last year there. I developed a healthy dislike for torque tube drive shafts as a result :)

dp
06-29-2010, 01:51 AM
It smacks of arrogance and "knowing better" and "knowing whats best" for others - as well as assuming and being the prime Inquisitor and Judge, Jury and Executioner.

And this reminds me of another story - another sad one. You'll recognize it:

"and then they came for me..."

We are a good society when we citizens defend our society from our predators. I'm ok with what Evan did. Computer security has been part of my job for decades and I've enjoyed helping people earn their stripes. I guess I'm arrogant.

I witnessed a hit and run. I followed the offender and used my cell phone camera to help him earn his strips. Guess I "know better" or something - maybe even "what's best". I didn't know I was being arrogant, too.

I'm happy to say that what I did is actually quite common and society is better for it.

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
I would not be the least bit surprised if at least some of the effort here was directed more toward vengeance or a cure for battered and bruised egos than it is toward justice.


Hardly. It's a hobby of mine. This isn't the first and it won't be the last. If the RCMP decide it isn't actionable then nothing will happen. If they do take action the site will disappear. I like turning off websites that leech on the gullible and the great majority of internet users that are unable to defend themselves. This mainly came about from nearly ten years of cleaning up infected computers of my customers. It is a small form of payback.

Evan was going more or less OK until I saw that item (I've coloured it red) and the implied or implicit regard of "the gullible and great majority of internet users that are unable to defend themselves ...." as fools is more than a "bit rich" and more than just a little "broad brush" to almost be all-encompassing.

If he had just got on with his pursuit of the "Panther" man, I'd have left him to it. But when he all but mounted crusade on behalf of all or many others without reference to them and to all but regard them as incompetent, it had gone bit (too?) far.

Many may or may not have regarded it as a scam - and many may well have.

I would hope that most at least questioned it and just read the thread and moved on.

While many may or did say it was a scam, I did not see any here who said they had been scammed personally by it or that they actually knew anybody that had.

If that is the case, the purported "scam" was not successful at all and did provide quite a good entertainment content - or it did for those that didn't take it - or themselves - too seriously.

I can't see any connection between a possible 'net scam and a specific "hurt" in the street as the former can be ignored but the latter should not be.

dp
06-29-2010, 02:42 AM
If he had just got on with his pursuit of the "Panther" man, I'd have left him to it. But when he all but mounted crusade on behalf of all or many others without reference to them and to all but regard them as incompetent, it had gone bit (too?) far.

Tiffie - I'm a computer professional with responsibility for site security among other things. Believe me - most end users have no freaking clue what they're up against. It does not mean they are incompetent - it means the problem is vastly larger than they know. Larger than they can know unless they actively study it. And that is not intended to insult but to educate. The problem is huge. Unbelievably huge.

And it hits home - my poor wife can't understand why she doesn't have a Facebook account when all her friends do, but at least she trusts me and what I know. And the funny thing is she shreds every piece of paper that arrives in the mail that has our personal information on it and which we don't need. She does know better than to put that in the recycle bin unshredded :)

Need evidence? Look at all the people who have free mail accounts and store their personal information "in the cloud". Every byte of that is crawled for useful content. And that's not even addressing the massive bot farms of exploited Windows systems in use all over the world.

Evan
06-29-2010, 02:55 AM
Evan.

Who the hell appointed or asked you to be their guardian angel - or saviour - or the internet version of Don Quixote? aka "Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha"?



It is called a moral obligation to do the right thing.

Circlip
06-29-2010, 03:08 AM
It is called a moral obligation to do the right thing.

Yes what a sterling Idea, strange, when I tried to do a similar thing regarding the use of a drill chuck for holding Milling cutters, I was haranged.

caviars empty, well, something like that.

Stealing money always commands a higher Jail sentance than physical assault in the UK.

Regards Ian

speedy
06-29-2010, 03:26 AM
Has Tony/Eric/??? left the building?
It is my observation that the likes of scammers have more than one poker in the fire.

Good on you Evan. If they are found to be, what most of us suspect them to be, then I hope that they are hung high. Though I doubt it.
If anyone cares to look at the number of ignorant or trusting or ill informed or well informed or greedy people who have been fleeced by finance houses, building developers/speculators etc in NZ in recent times, and before.
It is the the financial wild west here.

Check out: Bluechip. Hanover. Petrovich. There are a number of others that provide interesting reading.

i would like to see the re-introduction of the gallows and the pillory.

Oh yeah, and justice.

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
Evan.

Who the hell appointed or asked you to be their guardian angel - or saviour - or the internet version of Don Quixote? aka "Hidalgo Don Quixote of La Mancha"?


It is called a moral obligation to do the right thing.

Evan,

all too often the term "moral obligation" is regarded as or smacks of or is used as having a moral superiority and the need to "convert" the "great unwashed. It is a "missionary" attitude.

I will take it that is not the case here.

If you'd left it at that, you'd have got my 110% support.

And if and as that is all that you are doing, you have my 120% support.

John Stevenson
06-29-2010, 04:23 AM
"for fück sakes!!!" what on this earth does that mean??

Famous sayings involving 'fück'.

Mayor of Hiroshima
"What the fück was that?"

General Custer
"Where did all these fücking Indians come from?"

Captain of the Titanic
"Where the fück is all this water coming from?"

John Lennon
"That's not a real fücking gun."

Richard Nixon
"Who's gonna fücking find out?"

Anne Boleyn
"Heads are going to fücking roll."

Commander of Challenger
"Let the fücking woman drive."

Albert Einstein
"Any fücking idiot knows that."

Picasso
"It does so fücking look like her!"

Pythagoras
"How the fück did you work that out?"

Michaelangelo
"You want what on the fücking ceiling?"

Walt Disney
"Fück a duck."

Edmund Hilary
"Why?- Because its fücking there!"

Joan of Arc
"I don't suppose its gonna fücking rain?"

Noah
"Scattered fücking showers my ass."

John F. Kennedy-
"I need a parade like I need a fücking hole in my head."

Tony Haywood
" It's only a drop in the fücking ocean"

.

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
If he had just got on with his pursuit of the "Panther" man, I'd have left him to it. But when he all but mounted crusade on behalf of all or many others without reference to them and to all but regard them as incompetent, it had gone bit (too?) far.


Tiffie - I'm a computer professional with responsibility for site security among other things. Believe me - most end users have no freaking clue what they're up against. It does not mean they are incompetent - it means the problem is vastly larger than they know. Larger than they can know unless they actively study it. And that is not intended to insult but to educate. The problem is huge. Unbelievably huge.

And it hits home - my poor wife can't understand why she doesn't have a Facebook account when all her friends do, but at least she trusts me and what I know. And the funny thing is she shreds every piece of paper that arrives in the mail that has our personal information on it and which we don't need. She does know better than to put that in the recycle bin unshredded :)

Need evidence? Look at all the people who have free mail accounts and store their personal information "in the cloud". Every byte of that is crawled for useful content. And that's not even addressing the massive bot farms of exploited Windows systems in use all over the world.

Dennis.

People "sign up" as informed adults without undue pressure or duress as equals at arms length under a binding contract.

There is no real way you can stop them doing it.

It applies to all forms of credit and commitment.

We, or I anyway, are not their carers or their guarantors nor are we liable for their actions - but they are.

Any seller of any goods or service relies on this as well as their ability to persuade people to act in the interests of the seller and not necessarily in the interests of the buyer. This is commerce and free-enterprise.

It is much harder to protect people from themselves as well as their greed and avarice than it is to protect them from scammers.

A good salesman or scammer will actually persuade people to be so anxious to "buy" or "deal" that the "victim" will actually not only scam themselves but revel in it and deny it both to themselves and others if it is identified as a scam.

Sometimes the worst you can wish on some people is themselves.

Mcgyver
06-29-2010, 07:58 AM
who's money did he take? who'd he defraud and for how much?

i couldn't read 50 pages of this but pending news that he took 10k from someones mom here, the whole thing is just plain silly .... you called the cops because he did? to who? and you're doing it because you used to clean viruses off of computers? These threads are time wasters and I hope you get over it and go back to something creative/positive soon

Evan
06-29-2010, 08:23 AM
i couldn't read 50 pages of this but pending news that he took 10k from someones mom here,

How do you expect that pending news to be reported if the scam isn't reported?

Most victims never report a scam.

Weston Bye
06-29-2010, 08:25 AM
You boys have started throwing the chairs. That is how threads get locked. I was going to suggest that you kiss and make up, but I suspect that in the current atmosphere at least one of you would instruct me to kiss something else. :D

Make chips.

Evan
06-29-2010, 08:26 AM
I'm not throwing any chairs. I have to look out for my kidney. It won't take the strain. :D

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 08:44 AM
I'm not throwing any chairs. I have to look out for my kidney. It won't take the strain. :D

Evan.

Perhaps my biology needs updating, but kidneys are strainers or filters and as such are quite capable of performing a straining function.


....................
They serve the body as a natural filter of the blood....................
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney

I can't see how that relates to "throwing chairs" - or the topic of the thread either.

Are you the Chairman here perhaps?

Evan
06-29-2010, 09:04 AM
Mine isn't straining. Therein lies the problem.

Ken_Shea
06-29-2010, 10:07 AM
All this bickering will subside as with the full moon. :D

Paul Alciatore
06-29-2010, 10:29 AM
OK, I'm in for $0.25. When do I get my millions?

morehelium
06-29-2010, 04:18 PM
Maybe Evan has been a bit harsh in his criticism and vigor with this dude, but I suspect its based on past experience.

I'm surprised at how many people engage this Erik fellow as being legitimate.

I'm just fascinated by the amount of work he's spent putting up a website etc, for something so laughable and then has gotten so many to play along.
There is NO company, he is not doing anything except spinning a very bizarre tale.

I've seen similar behavior to his in the past in pathological liars where they will tell wildly extravagant tales that border on believability. But most don't question the story until they go away and think about it.

Come on people, this is a very disturbed individual trying to promote a "motorcycle" with about as much marketability as a buggy whip.

It really is bizarre, look at the stuff on his website, it's nothing more than well presented jibberish.
Not a single picture, performance spec. or any detail. And the Military being a client? You have to be joking. I almost fell of my seat at the picture with the medical cross on the side.
Not a single sentence in the "business plan" about business performance, just technical jibberish.
Talking about "hemi" as though it's an engine design in itself. And simply using exotic sounding alloys don't make the engine design better.
Again, this is nothing more than bizarre entertainment than a legitimate investment vehicle. Would anyone actually entertain investing in a design that looks like a cartoon? I think not.

There is actually a Erik Brinkman listed on a patent, but it's stated as c/o Andrew Ross. (His caretaker?)

I'm interested to see where this goes out of interest.

The company phone numbers simply go to an answering machine.

And come on people, "tony" doesn't exist. Erik, Tony and others posting from this fictional company are the same person for christ sake. Different people making the exact same grammatical errors? Not likely.

I'd rather string him along and get him talking about developing a new and improved Retroencabulator than take him seriously.

Any members in Victoria BC that can provide some info on the addresses? Or who this fruitloop is?

John Stevenson
06-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Actually I did some digging from information that Evan posted, checked various addresses and used Google earth and Google street map and hit pay dirt.

Didn't get a true name to any of the aliases but did get a copy of an early publicity shot.

.


.



.



.



.



.




.




.
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/files_troll_2.jpg
.

Arcane
06-29-2010, 06:49 PM
I think I have found the REAL person behind the "Panther Motorcycle" debacle....click HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSbh2MsxdNs&feature=related) for the story. :D

speedy
06-29-2010, 07:07 PM
It is Fegelein??

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 07:51 PM
Irrespective of whether "Tony" et al has a motor bike at all or not and whether any of us agree with his "technical" and sales pitch, or not, I can't see that it or he has done any harm or good really.

I have not seen anywhere in his posts, that I recall, where he or his connections have received any money from "investors" although someone here said that "Tony" said on another web site/page that any monies received would be put into escrow and frozen/held until the first prototype bike was produced.

I have not seen anywhere that I recall that said that anyone here actually had invested or knew anyone who had, or if anyone had, that they had reservations about the escrow security or that anyone who had invested had lost any money.

If all of that is true, I can't see that any scam or loss has occurred.

It may well be that the "Panther" web pages etc. are a pretty good - albeit a bit transparent - web game.

I for one, am certainly not in any position to diagnose or classify the medical and/or mental condition of "Tony" or any of his "associates". An opinion - lay person or not - is just an opinion and is not a medically qualified diagnosis.

To say that "Tony" or his project is silly or stupid is one thing but to say or infer that he is mad or psychotic or similar is quite another.

"Tony" was not the OP in the original thread (now locked) who posted a link to the "Panther" bike. The OP was a member here who seemed to post it in good faith as an item of interest for comment - which is 100% legitimate.

It was not long after that that the "pile on" started. It was "one in all in" as it seemed that many were just busting a gut to "get on" with all the others for their "licks" and comments which got progressively more - to put it politely - "negative".

The scene was set for "Tony" to come in and make the most of it - which he did - and it seemed to spiral down-hill from there on in. It was almost a lynch-mob effort.

As regards the "name-calling" etc., it seemed that even if Tony did stir it up and give as good as he got, I don't recall him starting it.

I didn't see where Tony actively or passively scammed or sought to scam anyone. Perhaps he did and I missed it. I didn't see that he had done anything or much that was illegal - or soliciting or scamming either.

I thought that the recent disgraceful "pile-on" to/of the member "Airsmith" regarding his spelling and presentation etc. was as bad as I ever hoped to see, but this "Tony" pile-on left it in its dust.

I am all in favour of a vigorous debate or discussion and accept that by its nature will get a bit "willing" at times.

I don't like any sort of persecution and I certainly don't - and won't - apologise for that.

I respect the right of any one to express a concern about a web site and to take any action he/she sees as necessary or required or "wanted" etc. toward that end.

Others have equal rights to refrain from such action or to object to it.

It all seems to have been a pretty major storm about a trivial matter in a very small cup.

PeteF
06-29-2010, 08:26 PM
I have not seen anywhere in his posts, that I recall, where he or his connections have received any money from "investors" although someone here said that "Tony" said on another web site/page that any monies received would be put into escrow and frozen/held until the first prototype bike was produced.

I have not seen anywhere that I recall that said that anyone here actually had invested or knew anyone who had, or if anyone had, that they had reservations about the escrow security or that anyone who had invested had lost any money.

If all of that is true, I can't see that any scam or loss has occurred.

Well I tell you what, rather than pontificating about what may or may not have occurred, why don't you flick him 10 or 20 grand of your own money (the link to "invest" is on the Panther page) and let us know how you get on!

Weston Bye
06-29-2010, 08:39 PM
I'm not throwing any chairs. I have to look out for my kidney. It won't take the strain. :D

So thats why you have reduced your participation in contests involving urine. Limited supply of ammunition.

Get well.

Evan
06-29-2010, 08:39 PM
A scammer isn't usually stupid enough to admit he has actually taken other people's money. Instead he will do what this one has done, pose as a customer that has "invested". It's called shilling and the shill hasn't been fleeced so a charge cannot be supported on that account. More to the point, what baffles me is that anybody wants to see evidence that people have lost money. If this site has not come to the attention of the authorities then exactly where is that evidence supposed to be found? If people have lost money and reported it then the site wouldn't exist. It's very basic logic.

PeteF
06-29-2010, 08:49 PM
It may also be worthwhile doing a brief search under "Intent to defraud" before becoming too defensive about other's alleged activities!

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
I have not seen anywhere in his posts, that I recall, where he or his connections have received any money from "investors" although someone here said that "Tony" said on another web site/page that any monies received would be put into escrow and frozen/held until the first prototype bike was produced.

I have not seen anywhere that I recall that said that anyone here actually had invested or knew anyone who had, or if anyone had, that they had reservations about the escrow security or that anyone who had invested had lost any money.

If all of that is true, I can't see that any scam or loss has occurred.


Well I tell you what, rather than pontificating about what may or may not have occurred, why don't you flick him 10 or 20 grand of your own money (the link to "invest" is on the Panther page) and let us know how you get on!

Peter.

Before I invest/ed in anything - the "Panther" bike included - I'd invest in some very competent advice first and see what that had to say before going - or not going - any further.

Given my religious aspirations etc. there would be few less likely or able than I to "pontificate" - and by extension - to be a/the Pontiff.

Next, so that you need not rely on my advice and how it may or may not relate to the facts, as well as the time-lag that goes with it, and to increase your level of certainty and first-hand experience, than I suggest that you fund your own curiosity with your own money and "invest" in the "Panther" bike project.

If I was rude I guess that instead of typing the previous paragraph, I'd have just simply told you to put your money where your mouth is - but as I am not seeking to be rude, I won't (be) and will continue - if I may.

Perhaps if you spoke nicely to Tony he will advise you and perhaps fund or arrange funding if you find yourself "short".

I have just checked the "logged on" list and Tony Botello is logged on right now. Perhaps you might like to contact him.

I can also advise that irrespective of some of the "concerns" here that Tony Botello is still a member here - so George has seen no need to "expel" him or delete any of his posts thus far.

I have just "Googled" the "Panther" and its still up on Google:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=panther+motorcycles&aq=0s&aqi=g-s1g-sx9&aql=&oq=panther+motor+cy&gs_rfai=&fp=9ae97ca88fbf34c0

It seems that despite the opinions and expressed desires of some for it to be otherwise that both Tony and his/the web site are in good standing unless or until anything to the contrary requires that he/it/they should be deemed and/or treated otherwise.

I forward this comment without prejudice.

Mcgyver
06-29-2010, 09:16 PM
what baffles me is that anybody wants to see evidence that people have lost money. If this site has not come to the attention of the authorities then exactly where is that evidence supposed to be found? If people have lost money and reported it then the site wouldn't exist. It's very basic logic.

because it evidences crossing the line between being a nutbar and potentially committing fraud. Unless there is commerce via funds transfer or a very direct solicitation of funds (ie you were presented with a written offering document) what do you expect the police to charge him with or be bother spending resources on? And if there's not an investigation and charges, by what mechanism does the web site get taken down? Without some commerce or commercial solicitation involved (and even then fraud may be a stretch) calling the RCMP makes you look like Gladys Kravitz peeking out behind her curtain imo...

the guy strikes me as a kook and i'm hardly sticking up for him but phoning the RCMP? for what? being a nutbar? being wrong? lying about his background? bet they have a file on you now:D



If people have lost money and reported it then the site wouldn't exist. It's very basic logic

because someone is under investigation their web site gets taken down? How?

PeteF
06-29-2010, 09:30 PM
Given my religious aspirations etc. there would be few less likely or able than I to "pontificate" - and by extension - to be a/the Pontiff.

Given your penchant for including links to presumably explain the obvious, here's one for you http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pontificate I'd suggest you choose option 1 as it has nothing to do with molesting alter boys I'm afraid, though I'll confess to being a little troubled by your statement as to your religious aspirations etc :eek:

oldtiffie
06-29-2010, 09:39 PM
Join the club.

The Artful Bodger
06-29-2010, 09:50 PM
Peter.

Before I invest/ed in anything - the "Panther" bike included - I'd invest in some very competent advice first .....

No need to 'invest' anything, we have Evan here to protect us all.

Tony Ennis
06-29-2010, 09:53 PM
If Evan wants to drop a dime on a probable scammer, why complain?

Evan
06-29-2010, 09:57 PM
No need to 'invest' anything, we have Evan here to protect us all.


What does it matter to you?

Evan
06-29-2010, 09:59 PM
because someone is under investigation their web site gets taken down? How?


If somebody is under investigation you won't hear about it. If they are charged they will be shut down.


bet they have a file on you now

They most certainly do. I had to pass some pretty deep security checks to be able to teach military cadets firearms.


And if there's not an investigation and charges, by what mechanism does the web site get taken down

If the ISP is notified that he is hosting what looks like a scam operation he will shut it down to avoid legal liability. He only needs to use his terms of service to do that.

The Artful Bodger
06-29-2010, 10:03 PM
What does it matter to you?

I told you right early on to let Panter Man be but no........

The Artful Bodger
06-29-2010, 10:07 PM
They most certainly do. I had to pass some pretty deep security checks to be able to teach military cadets firearms.

Thats right, everything that goes into or out of the US is trawled for whatever they are looking for, thank the earlier mentioned Echelon for that.

I suppose even Echelon brings some sort of notice, maybe more if you include words like Tangi Moana, Omaka, Renwick, Punawai or Whakapohane. Dont type those words into your search engine if you live in the US, especially Whakapohane.:D

wierdscience
06-29-2010, 10:11 PM
If Evan wants to drop a dime on a probable scammer, why complain?

Exactly,that's what the cops are there for,protect and serve or some such as that.

Evan
06-29-2010, 10:12 PM
ECHELON is a term associated with a global network of computers that automatically search through millions of intercepted messages for pre-programmed keywords or fax, telex and e-mail addresses. Every word of every message in the frequencies and channels selected at a station is automatically searched. The processors in the network are known as the ECHELON Dictionaries. ECHELON connects all these computers and allows the individual stations to function as distributed elements an integrated system. An ECHELON station's Dictionary contains not only its parent agency's chosen keywords, but also lists for each of the other four agencies in the UKUSA system [NSA, GCHQ, DSD, GCSB and CSE]

http://ixian.ca/pics7/ech.jpg

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

The Artful Bodger
06-29-2010, 10:18 PM
http://ixian.ca/pics7/ech.jpg

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

Ummmm..... I do not think that map is accurate!:)

Evan
06-29-2010, 10:23 PM
Ok, I just want to try and understand why anybody here objects to me reporting somebody for breaking the law. What we have is a person that is running an internet based business in Canada from computers in Canada marketing to Canadians a non existent product. He is in violation of a number of laws respecting false advertising, misrepresenting his product and services, misrepresenting himself with intent to deceive, using an assumed name with intent to deceive and several other related offenses. These are already existing offenses not including any possible fraud that may have taken place.

So, why shouldn't I report him?

PeteF
06-29-2010, 10:23 PM
Of course the challenge now is to see if this moral pissing contest* will exceed the 503 posts of the thread that lead to it.

*Evan, given your current health condition, if you wish, you can either elect to exclude yourself from the contest or alternatively elect a proxy to piss in your favour.

The Artful Bodger
06-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Of course the challenge now is to see if this moral pissing contest* will exceed the 503 posts of the thread that lead to it.

*Evan, given your current health condition, if you wish, you can either elect to exclude yourself from the contest or alternatively elect a proxy to piss in your favour.

I will get some bottles on the bar!:D

(I can also reveal that after years of drugs and a few dozen radiation treatments I can now piss as good as any schoolboy, better than most!)


Now there was this nun who caught some boys having a pissing contest on the back convent wall. They were competing with lads from a school down the road. She dragged her charges before the parish priest and reported what she had seen:-

"And what did you do Sister?" asked the priest.

"I must confess that I lost control and hit the roof"

"Good job Sister, never let those Protestants get one over us!"

Arcane
06-29-2010, 10:30 PM
I only have one kidney...I'll have to settle for quality in lieu of quantity...:D

Mcgyver
06-29-2010, 11:51 PM
Ok, I just want to try and understand why anybody here objects to me reporting somebody for breaking the law. What we have is a person that is running an internet based business in Canada from computers in Canada marketing to Canadians a non existent product. He is in violation of a number of laws respecting false advertising, misrepresenting his product and services, misrepresenting himself with intent to deceive, using an assumed name with intent to deceive and several other related offenses. These are already existing offenses not including any possible fraud that may have taken place.

So, why shouldn't I report him?

what has he done to make you think its a business? Is there revenue or investment? that's why it matters whether there's been evidence of commerce....maybe, still might not be fraud.

Speaking for myself I don't care if you do or don't report -I don't object to your doing so. stand naked and scream at moon for all i care (but your RCMP file might get a few footnotes). I just think it is silly.....no one is going to give a crap unless he's taking money - for deposits, investment etc. otherwise he's projecting a fantasy like the star wars nutbars that live in fantasy worlds....are you reporting them as well? Maybe because the death star's not possible using current engineering? Until it becomes commercial, i don't see his little fantasy world as much different and or of much interest to the RCMP



If somebody is under investigation you won't hear about it. If they are charged they will be shut down.

that's not what you said, you said
if people have lost money and reported it then the site wouldn't exist. It's very basic logic

There's no logic there, its wrong. There's a lot that has to happen between someone saying they lost money (which happens all the time but isn't necessarily fraud) and a web site being shut down, presumably by court order else he could simply have it hosted it elsewhere.

KIMFAB
06-30-2010, 12:04 AM
http://www.kimfab.com/popcorn.gif

Mcgyver
06-30-2010, 12:14 AM
haha, ok, I'm done! call all the authorities :D

http://www.morethings.com/fan/bewitched/bewitched102-205.jpg

PeteF
06-30-2010, 12:18 AM
http://www.kimfab.com/popcorn.gif

Oh yeah, I'm with you on that one. So far my favourite is when somebody says something like "Personally I don't care but ..." and then continues on for another half page ... presumably just to emphasise just HOW MUCH they don't care :D

Gimme some of that popcorn :p

S_J_H
06-30-2010, 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan
what baffles me is that anybody wants to see evidence that people have lost money. If this site has not come to the attention of the authorities then exactly where is that evidence supposed to be found? If people have lost money and reported it then the site wouldn't exist. It's very basic logic.


because it evidences crossing the line between being a nutbar and potentially committing fraud. Unless there is commerce via funds transfer or a very direct solicitation of funds (ie you were presented with a written offering document) what do you expect the police to charge him with or be bother spending resources on? And if there's not an investigation and charges, by what mechanism does the web site get taken down? Without some commerce or commercial solicitation involved (and even then fraud may be a stretch) calling the RCMP makes you look like Gladys Kravitz peeking out behind her curtain imo...

the guy strikes me as a kook and i'm hardly sticking up for him but phoning the RCMP? for what? being a nutbar? being wrong? lying about his background? bet they have a file on you now:D





The panther motorcycle is just one project of many for his cloud based company called IDS.

http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Invest.html

http://www.erikbrinkman.com/IDS-General/Contributions_Form.html

http://www.erikbrinkman.com/IDS-Research/Invest.html

http://www.erikbrinkman.com/Investment_(FF)/Invest_Editorial.html

http://www.erikbrinkman.com/IDS-General/Process.html

http://www.erikbrinkman.com/IDS-General/FAQs.html

The way I see it, it's 1 of 3 possibilities, and of those 3 possibilities they could be combined.

1, A possible scam using a "cloud" based company as it's nut's and bolt's.
2, A man's vivid imagination
3, It's all legit and we can soon expect to see the military riding these panthers.:eek:

PeteF
06-30-2010, 12:24 AM
3, It's all legit and we can soon expect to see the military riding these panthers.:eek:

Correction, that would be "militaries" according to my crapometer logs.

Evan
06-30-2010, 12:52 AM
There's no logic there, its wrong. There's a lot that has to happen between someone saying they lost money (which happens all the time but isn't necessarily fraud) and a web site being shut down, presumably by court order else he could simply have it hosted it elsewhere.


What I said included the implication that having lost money charges would be laid. If you pay for something via mail order or the Internet and it isn't delivered within 30 days in Canada then you either must agree to an extension or your money must be refunded. If you lose your money the direct implication is that the seller has broken that law.

It doesn't take a court order to shut down a web site. All it takes is for the web site to be in violation of the terms of service of the web hosting company.

Here is an example of applicable terms of service NOT including the terms of service prohibiting illegal activity.



While using the Communication Services, you are prohibited from engaging in or assisting others to engage in any activity that (1) violates established or accepted network etiquette, (2) violates applicable charters, FAQS, policies, rules or guidelines of UNISERVE or other parties, (3) disrupts or threatens the integrity, operation or security of any Communication Service or any computer or Internet system, (4) elicits complaints from other Internet users, (5) is contrary to any law or regulation, or (6) in the sole judgment of UNISERVE, is otherwise objectionable, (6) involves use of UNISERVE's trade-marks, trade names or logos, including without limitation any such trade-marks, logos or service marks displayed on any web site(s) operated by UNISERVE, without UNISERVE's express prior written permission; (7) involves sharing, reselling, reproducing, copying, distributing, redistributing, or exploiting for any commercial purposes, any portion of, use of or access to, the UNISERVE Internet Services, except where expressly authorized by UNISERVE.

These are the terms of service from a backbone provider. They are very stringent and that is why a local ISP is not going to hesitate to drop a website that is in any way questionable. All it takes is a complaint to the upper tier Net access provider and the ISP will be notified to take action immediately.

The Artful Bodger
06-30-2010, 02:07 AM
Never mind Evan, at least you gave the Panther Man several days of intense excitement and entertainment, which of course is what he was looking for!:p

Evan
06-30-2010, 02:48 AM
I am also very bored as I cannot do much of anything just yet. Still, it will be interesting to see if the web site stays up.

oldtiffie
06-30-2010, 03:27 AM
Its still "up" as of now (check the time:date of this post):
http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Home.html

oldtiffie
06-30-2010, 03:40 AM
I guess that if some want to get a web site taken down by just being vexatious and/or vindictive, or venting their spleen, I guess that's their right to at least try.


In modern English, "to vent one's spleen" means to vent one's anger, e.g. by shouting, and can be applied to both males and females. Similarly, the English term "splenetic" is used to describe a person in a foul mood.
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spleen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutorial_vindictiveness

It all - at best - seems a (BIG!!) bit "over the top" to me.

What next?

eBay?

Any others to add to the list?

goose
06-30-2010, 08:30 AM
What I said included the implication that having lost money charges would be laid. If you pay for something via mail order or the Internet and it isn't delivered within 30 days in Canada then you either must agree to an extension or your money must be refunded. If you lose your money the direct implication is that the seller has broken that law.




Order a coffee mug from his store. (http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/xzstore.html) If nothing shows up in 30 days, you'll have your proof.

Checkout is thru Paypal, which belies the sophistication of his website. But I use the same on my website with my scams, er... business.

Gary

oldtiffie
06-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Gary.

I checked out the "Panther store":
http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/store/beer_mugs.png

http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/store/beer_mugs.png

I do hope that Panther beer is a lot better than the Brit "wet canteen" (PX in the US Navy) "Tiger" beer they sold in RN canteens in the Far East in the 50's and 60's. It was - to put it politely - awful (very). Having it warm didn't help and diluting it with lemonade (Tiger Tops) to kill it (it didn't!!) was no help.

So in the absence of a decent cold OZ beer we went for "San Miguel" ("San Mig") and "Kirin" (Japan) as better substitutes.

There have been several versions of "Genuine Panther pi$$" (bottled from the panther in the wood-shed - with pic!!) that were no good either but a whole lot less worse than "Tiger Tops".

People have been known to be killed - and worse - here in OZ for lesser sins.

Tony - you have been warned about OZ!!!

Evan
06-30-2010, 08:52 AM
The store isn't in operation. It's window dressing.

goose
06-30-2010, 09:07 AM
The store isn't in operation. It's window dressing.


I got all the way to the checkout screen with my merchandise. The only thing left to do was click "Pay Now" button.

No window dressing, I see no scam here.




Gary (I don't need a coffee mug :o )

Evan
06-30-2010, 09:18 AM
It say at the top that sales have not begun.

[edit] If they have then you have just been scammed into providing a link to his web site. I have been careful not to link to his site.

Regardless, it has no bearing on the rest of the scam.

dp
06-30-2010, 10:53 AM
Several problems with the "store" defense. It is a paypal cart available to anyone. The products are not of his manufacture, and anyone can sell them the same way. You cannot find a real motorcycle for sale - there are no tires to kick, no show rooms in any of the presented world wide locations. The online store does not corroborate anything and in fact reinforces the scam by making the thing more believable. And we know it's more believable because we have a supporter here who is using the presence of the store as evidence of legitimacy. Score one for the scammer - the big lie works.

It is the motorcycle that is the only product they claim to produce in whole, it is listed as very expensive, and they don't exist. Anywhere. No evidence they ever will. That is some serious preparation to defraud.

The structure of the web site is really quite amazing. Real structure including a Clients area. But do you find clients listed? No - none exist. What you find is a profile of what the ideal client is. It's the same all over the website. Lots of clever structure but no data. It is like a well organized book full of boilerplate text.

gnm109
06-30-2010, 11:11 AM
Several problems with the "store" defense. It is a paypal cart available to anyone. The products are not of his manufacture, and anyone can sell them the same way. You cannot find a real motorcycle for sale - there are no tires to kick, no show rooms in any of the presented world wide locations. The online store does not corroborate anything and in fact reinforces the scam by making the thing more believable. And we know it's more believable because we have a supporter here who is using the presence of the store as evidence of legitimacy. Score one for the scammer - the big lie works.

It is the motorcycle that is the only product they claim to produce in whole, it is listed as very expensive, and they don't exist. Anywhere. No evidence they ever will. That is some serious preparation to defraud.

The structure of the web site is really quite amazing. Real structure including a Clients area. But do you find clients listed? No - none exist. What you find is a profile of what the ideal client is. It's the same all over the website. Lots of clever structure but no data. It is like a well organized book full of boilerplate text.

There is definitely an inducement to invest in the "Panther" website. On some of his posts, "Tony Botello" or whoever he is, makes the statement that there are "more than 100 different versions of the motorcycle" (paraphrasing). That leads the reader to believe that these iterations presently exist. They apparently do not exist at this time in other than electronic form.

The bottom line is that his pitch seems very similar to the type of information that I recall reading back in the 1990's (Phillip Zanghi - Indian II). People lost big money on that deal.

I'm not saying this is a scam, but if investors buy into it and the "company" later goes T.U., you can come to your own conclusion at to what to call it.

goose
06-30-2010, 11:32 AM
And we know it's more believable because we have a supporter here who is using the presence of the store as evidence of legitimacy. Score one for the scammer - the big lie works.

Not a supporter, just saying lack of evidence of a scam. Negative evidence (eg., no product, no prototypes, no clients, no vendors, no corp officers,) is not necessarily evidence of anything wrong. Neither are outrageous claims.


It is like a well organized book full of boilerplate text.

That can apply to alot of marketing ad copy.



You want to invest in some start-up company, you take a chance.

Somebody swindles you out of money, that happens everyday, go cry a river.

You want to "report" somebody cause the've got a website and it doesn't meet your standards, knock yourself out.



Gary

Evan
06-30-2010, 12:24 PM
You want to "report" somebody cause the've got a website and it doesn't meet your standards, knock yourself out.


You aren't paying attention. He is already breaking several laws.

Arcane
06-30-2010, 12:27 PM
If no product, no prototypes, no clients, no vendors, no corp officers, outrageous claims don't scream out SCAM!, then what exactly does???

Go to the Panther website, scroll down to "Invest" on the left side, click on "offer", then on the new page, click on "Legal" on the right side and have a read through. It looks like they are covering themselves with layer upon layer of Teflon.

moe1942
06-30-2010, 12:34 PM
Y'all can't be scammed unless you buy in. Look at this thread as entertainment and when you get bored go elsewhere.

Evan
06-30-2010, 12:38 PM
Here is the law that is currently being broken.



BUSINESS PRACTICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION ACT

Part 2 -- Unfair Practices

Division 1 -- Deceptive Acts or Practices

Deceptive acts or practices
4 (1) In this Division:
"deceptive act or practice" means, in relation to a consumer transaction,

(a) an oral, written, visual, descriptive or other representation by a supplier, or

(b) any conduct by a supplier

that has the capability, tendency or effect of deceiving or misleading a consumer or guarantor;

"representation" includes any term or form of a contract, notice or other document used or relied on by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction.

(2) A deceptive act or practice by a supplier may occur before, during or after the consumer transaction.

(3) Without limiting subsection (1), one or more of the following constitutes a deceptive act or practice:

(a) a representation by a supplier that goods or services

(i) have sponsorship, approval, performance characteristics, accessories, ingredients, quantities, components, uses or benefits that they do not have,

(ii) are of a particular standard, quality, grade, style or model if they are not,

(iii) have a particular prior history or usage that they do not have, including a representation that they are new if they are not,

(iv) are available for a reason that differs from the fact,

(v) are available if they are not available as represented,

(vi) were available in accordance with a previous representation if they were not,

(vii) are available in quantities greater than is the fact, or

(viii) will be supplied within a stated period if the supplier knows or ought to know that they will not;

http://www.leg.bc.ca/37th5th/1st_read/gov02-1-pt02.htm#part02-div02


No actual sale must be made for a deceptive practice to exist.

Mcgyver
06-30-2010, 12:40 PM
If no product, no prototypes, no clients, no vendors, no corp officers, outrageous claims don't scream out SCAM!, then what exactly does???

Go to the Panther website, scroll down to "Invest" on the left side, click on "offer", then on the new page, click on "Legal" on the right side and have a read through. It looks like they are covering themselves with layer upon layer of Teflon.

that all may be true, but unless he's taken money for a product or investment how does it move from elaborate fantasy to scam or crime? because he has those buttons doesn't mean he's actually taken money....if i wasn't so darn cheap i'd try and buy a beer mug just to see what happens :D

Evan
06-30-2010, 12:42 PM
You cross posted. See above.

Deja Vu
06-30-2010, 12:50 PM
You cross posted. See above.

I saw it more as a "leapfrog" .:D
...that is, when you said "cross posted", at first I thought, 'What thread was the post suppose to go?'. Then I thought, 'Was just the quote inadvertantly copied and pasted crossing over from a different thread?'.

Then i began to read......

Mcgyver
06-30-2010, 01:08 PM
No actual sale must be made for a deceptive practice to exist.

How did you conclude that? The section you bold means the misrepresentation can happen before during or after the transaction - but there still has to be a transaction.


You aren't paying attention. He is already breaking several laws.

and i came to a rolling stop yesterday...thats a provincial act you quoted and he hasn't broken it if he hasn't done a transaction...when people are bilked of money or a crime (criminal law is federal not provincial) has been committed the RCMP will i'm sure be glad to hear from you

goose
06-30-2010, 01:20 PM
You aren't paying attention.


Yeah, I was told I had that problem in school.



He is already breaking several laws.


I'll keep my eye on his website to see when the Royal Mounted Canadian Police shut it down.:D


Right now on his home page he's bragging the month of June has received the most hits ever.

Cha-ching....!





Gary

Evan
06-30-2010, 01:59 PM
Misleading Representations and Deceptive Marketing Practices Provisions of the Competition Act

The Competition Act contains provisions addressing false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices in promoting the supply or use of a product or any business interest. All representations, in any form whatever, that are false or misleading in a material respect are subject to the Act. If a representation could influence a consumer to buy or use the product or service advertised, it is material. To determine whether a representation is false or misleading, the courts consider the "general impression" it conveys, as well as its literal meaning.



This is Federal law.

http://www.canadabusiness.mb.ca/home_page/business___start_it/competition_act__misleading_advertising_and_decept ive_marketing_practices/

Deja Vu
06-30-2010, 02:27 PM
I'd hate to see the site go down. It appears to me that it is an imaginative creation that demonstrates, if nothing else, free speech. .....a work of art.

Evan
06-30-2010, 02:53 PM
Canadians don't have a constitutional right to free speech. Neither do most (or even all) other countries.

John Stevenson
06-30-2010, 04:08 PM
Canadians don't have a constitutional right to free speech. Neither do most (or even all) other countries.

Is that because you have used all Canada's annual allotment Evan ?

.

Evan
06-30-2010, 05:30 PM
So far there has been plenty of argument whether the site is a scam or not but nobody has given a reason why it shouldn't be reported for the police to decide. There is certainly reasonable doubt as to the honesty.

The Artful Bodger
06-30-2010, 07:04 PM
So far there has been plenty of argument whether the site is a scam or not but nobody has given a reason why it shouldn't be reported for the police to decide. There is certainly reasonable doubt as to the honesty.


I was not aware that the police were to decide such things. As far as I know, in this country anyway, it would be the court that would decide if a crime had been committed.

PeteF
06-30-2010, 07:08 PM
I was not aware that the police were to decide such things. As far as I know, in this country anyway, it would be the court that would decide if a crime had been committed.

Yes but the appropriate authorities will be the ones deciding whether to take it to that court, and they generally have a pretty good idea as to whether the prosecution will be successful before entering that court! Furthermore, many decisions by the appropriate authority are NOT decided by a court unless you choose to appeal the decision.

Tony Ennis
06-30-2010, 07:47 PM
it would be the court that would decide if a crime had been committed.

The police are an arm of the prosecutor's office in the US.

Evan
06-30-2010, 08:13 PM
I was not aware that the police were to decide such things.

The police decide if a crime has been committed. The court decides if the accused is guilty of the crime.

dp
06-30-2010, 09:53 PM
Not the first time Erik and company have been called scammers:

http://www.tonup.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5532&sid=c15e30f889a586e3415ae5d83faa812a

The song remains the same...

Evan
06-30-2010, 11:47 PM
Does this sound like something he would write?


He has been the CEO and executive producer of major television and movie production companies; a university lecturer in economics; a creative advertising writer with international advertising agencies in London and New York; a marketing consultant with Boeing; a journalist; a screenwriter; the owner/operator of an Italian restaurant; and a dancer in and the artistic director of a ballet company.

There is no record of a tv/movie producer by the name of Stanley Hockman. He has written some books of poetry available on Amazon and lives in Victoria on the waterfront. His name came from a business plan for Panther Motorcycles on one of the archived sites from 3 years ago. Italian Resturant? Maybe. Fits with Tony Botello. His middle initial is a B. He lives in Wonderland it seems. I suspect he may also live on a boat. On a forum some years ago he expressed an interest in the name Panther Motorcycles. He listed his location as 600 miles west of LA. He made a comment in the other thread about Sat phone.

oldtiffie
07-01-2010, 12:15 AM
Not the first time Erik and company have been called scammers:

http://www.tonup.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5532&sid=c15e30f889a586e3415ae5d83faa812a

The song remains the same...

............................ and the malady lingers on.

dp
07-01-2010, 12:51 AM
............................ and the malady lingers on.

LOL - good one, Tiffie :)

gnm109
07-01-2010, 01:16 AM
Does this sound like something he would write?



There is no record of a tv/movie producer by the name of Stanley Hockman. He has written some books of poetry available on Amazon and lives in Victoria on the waterfront. His name came from a business plan for Panther Motorcycles on one of the archived sites from 3 years ago. Italian Resturant? Maybe. Fits with Tony Botello. His middle initial is a B. He lives in Wonderland it seems. I suspect he may also live on a boat. On a forum some years ago he expressed an interest in the name Panther Motorcycles. He listed his location as 600 miles west of LA. He made a comment in the other thread about Sat phone.


Hi Evan.

That's interesting. I was also wondering if you had discovered how the person in question called Tony was able to secure the Panther name? I know that Panther went out of business in UK years ago but I thought that someone might have owned the name.

There's not much out there 600 miles of L.A. LOL.

Evan
07-01-2010, 01:43 AM
He didn't secure the Panther name. It isn't registered at all and never has been. I could register it next week and he would be out of luck.

The only thing 600 miles west of LA would be a boat.

John Stevenson
07-01-2010, 03:37 AM
Hi Evan.

I know that Panther went out of business in UK years ago but I thought that someone might have owned the name.


I did a quick search on this but didn't get far as the trade mark database kept disappearing.
There was a guy here in the UK, Matt Holder, who bought a load of motorcycle trade marks up and the rights to them.

Not heard about him in a long while and chances are he's now dead but someone must own them?

This is the Velocette trade mark.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E4026407

EDIT Just done a reversed search and he owns Velocette, Vincent and Scott motorcycles.

SECOND EDIT Found it, Panther Motorcycles is registered to the Panther Owners Club.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/domestic?domesticnum=2483065

.

Evan
07-01-2010, 05:08 AM
Trademark registration is strictly national as are patents. It does mean he would have to market under a different name in the UK. Hardly likely but the absence of registration here is a sure sign that it doesn't matter to him since it will never be marketed as an actual product. It would also provide easy traceability to the company except that the company doesn't exist.

aboard_epsilon
07-01-2010, 08:11 AM
He didn't secure the Panther name. It isn't registered at all and never has been. I could register it next week and he would be out of luck.

The only thing 600 miles west of LA would be a boat.

boats and trolls...maybe who you have there is "Capt. Neal" scourge of the seven seas and lots of sailing news groups ...his mannerism and answers are almost the same .

His boat name is
"Cut the Mustard"

all the best.markj

S_J_H
07-01-2010, 08:56 AM
I found the amazon link to this guy after Evan found his name. Just a quick 5 second Google and visit the link to put 2 and 2 together.

He basically peaked my curiosity when he came here with his wild claims about the panther bike. Because of my love for motorcycles I was interested in getting to the bottom of this. I may have just dismissed it all as utter nonsense( which it is) if he was talking about sewing machines or..

I can find no claims against him for fraud. That of course means nothing, but he is asking for investment money all over the place on his website. The investment form on his website is "temporarily unavailable".

His story is so wild with nothing at all to prove the existence of this bike that only a very very gullible person would fall for it.

I feel I now know who he really is and the mystery has been solved! -


In all of my travels I have tried to remain inconspicuous. I have tasted to most pungent of fruits just to feel my nose hairs curl. I have inserted bamboo shoots into my anal cavity as a sign of personal strength to the mountain men that said I was too weak to do so. I have had the pleasure of sexual intercourse with a 300 pound woman, just to call myself a Wisconsinite.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/sportatorium/Most%20Interesting.jpg

PeteF
07-01-2010, 09:05 AM
His boat name is
"Cut the Mustard"


'spose it's better than naming your boat "Cut the Cheese"!

Ken_Shea
07-01-2010, 09:13 AM
............................ and the malady lingers on.

As the plot thickens :D

Deja Vu
07-01-2010, 09:17 AM
I found the amazon link to this guy after Evan found his name. Just a quick 5 second Google and visit the link to put 2 and 2 together.

He basically peaked my curiosity when he came here with his wild claims about the panther bike. Because of my love for motorcycles I was interested in getting to the bottom of this. I may have just dismissed it all as utter nonsense( which it is) if he was talking about sewing machines or..

I can find no claims against him for fraud. That of course means nothing, but he is asking for investment money all over the place on his website. The investment form on his website is "temporarily unavailable".

His story is so wild with nothing at all to prove the existence of this bike that only a very very gullible person would fall for it.

I feel I now know who he really is and the mystery has been solved! -
quote:

In all of my travels I have tried to remain inconspicuous. I have tasted to most pungent of fruits just to feel my nose hairs curl. I have inserted bamboo shoots into my anal cavity as a sign of personal strength to the mountain men that said I was too weak to do so. I have had the pleasure of sexual intercourse with a 300 pound woman, just to call myself a Wisconsinite.

Too funny! But why would he want to be called a Wisconsinite? :D

oldtiffie
07-01-2010, 09:34 AM
As the local sheriffs and deppitties don't seem to have don't much good, I'd have thought that Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple should solve it all in pretty short order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercule_Poirot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Marple

Or the Gendarmerie?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDBUJ1zytfY&feature=related

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/42/Reparto_di_Finanzieri.jpg/220px-Reparto_di_Finanzieri.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie

The Keystone Kops?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/KeystoneKops.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Kops

Monty Python?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python_and_the_Holy_Grail

gnm109
07-01-2010, 10:01 AM
He didn't secure the Panther name. It isn't registered at all and never has been. I could register it next week and he would be out of luck.

The only thing 600 miles west of LA would be a boat.


That confirms my suspicions about his credibility. Without clear legal title to the Panther name, anyone who invests in the "cybercycle" would be SOL if someone else were to sue to get the name. It's rather sad to see someone just take the name of what was a grand old motorcycle in its day. The Panther still has a following in UK. I wonder what the bikie clubs think about this fellow and his ramblings?

There have been gigantic legal struggles over the Indian name for motorcycles. I wouldn't be surprised if that were to come up if and when this fellow starts collecting money. Such litigation is all very costly.

IMHO, that website is little more than electronic toilet tissue. :(

Evan
07-01-2010, 10:23 AM
There have been gigantic legal struggles over the Indian name for motorcycles. I wouldn't be surprised if that were to come up if and when this fellow starts collecting money. Such litigation is all very costly.

That is the single most telling point in this stupidity. It was also very easy to check.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/pmtm.jpg

John Stevenson
07-01-2010, 10:35 AM
Too funny! But why would he want to be called a Wisconsinite? :D

Perhaps the 300 # woman was called Winnie ?

gnm109
07-01-2010, 10:42 AM
That is the single most telling point in this stupidity. It was also very easy to check.

That fact, that he hasn't registered the name anywhere, is warning to all.

In the case of the Gilroy, CA Indian (I call it "Indian II") the matter was litigated in federal court. There were competing entities. The company that ultimately won had a cloned "Indian" which had an aftermarket Harley frame , transmission and Evolution-type engine. The Court told them that they could continue selling that particular machine as an Indian but only if they came out with a proprietary Indian engine within a period of time. I think it might have been two years.

They ultimately did so and ran for a few years until going T.U. with a total loss of all of the money put up by the investors. The former CEO was later convicted of fraud in a separate matter having to do with falsified documents on a Harley-Davidson motorcycle that was to be exported.

As I said earlier in this thread, I fear that the Stellican people (Indian III) are headed for the same fate. They had a big splash in Cycle World magazine within the past year with all of their good intentions stated but nothing further......

In this era, with a recession cum depression in the wind, even attempting to do a startup motorcycle company with a $35.000 bike is remiiniscent of Don Quixote and his loyal sidekick, Sancho Pancho, tilting at windmills.

To be continued.

dp
07-01-2010, 11:09 AM
I note without comment because I don't have familiarity with it, but the ICPO also fails to return any pages for Princess Auto and Busy bee.

Evan
07-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Those are corporate names rather than a product. If you are going to sell The new "Panther Motorcycle" it would be a good idea to have it trademarked.

For instance, Canadian Tire Corp has "Supercycle Panther" registered for a bicycle they sell.

PeteF
07-02-2010, 10:47 PM
I think you guys are being very harsh. Give the guy SOME credit, at least he made it all the way through the tutorial!

http://solidworksmodel.com/

Deja Vu
07-03-2010, 11:14 AM
So, what's happening here? Has there been any action taken against this? Is this web extranvaganza completely a well thought out dream? Does it remain only ethereal until several communicating investers decide to join together and create the physical machine? What is the basic downfall of the concept that holds the auther away from reality? Is it simply impractical? I personally would love to have those features added into any two wheeled vehicles that I might chance to ride.
But who would buy it? Are there enthusists out there interested enough to at least create a prototype? Apparently not. Up to this time, I haven't seen a video of the actual mechanisms in motion. And if it did exist(I'm sometimes way behind the times), Why haven't I heard of the race arenas where the field is designed to take advantage of the motorcycle's abilities?

Evan, ...You have alerted an agency? that could make a big stink over the site in question. Have you received any response from the neigborhood watch group that you cited your grievances to? I think back in earlier posts you indicated you awaited an answer signalling that action is being pursued.

So do you think your gripe is in the recycling system now? Has your complaint found the archive list pending a last examination(if requested)?
What do we usually do with electronic files that aren't a priority?
I think we can thank you for bringing to light that your objective to legitimatize the cite in question has proven results.

Evan
07-03-2010, 11:18 AM
I alerted the proper agency. Their policy is to investigate but they do not report on investigations in progress or the resolution of an investigation. What happens and when is up to them. It is a branch of the RCMP and as with any investigation they do not reveal any information while it is in progress unless they deem it to be in the public interest.

gnm109
07-03-2010, 11:27 AM
So, what's happening here? <snip, snip>

But who would buy it? Are there enthusists out there interested enough to at least create a prototype? Apparently not. Up to this time, I haven't seen a video of the actual mechanisms in motion. And if it did exist(I'm sometimes way behind the times), Why haven't I heard of the race arenas where the field is designed to take advantage of the motorcycle's abilities?.

<snip, snip>



I can give an educated guess as to who would buy such a motorcycle. Probably almost no one. Motorcyclists and "Bikers" for all of their protestations of individuality, while I love and admire them since I'm one myself, are a conservative bunch. They like to adorn their stock bikes with all sorts of blings and minor modifications, but generally, they only buy solid name brands.

The "Panther" motorcycle, if it were ever produced, will have a life span of approximately one to two years. At that point, investors will stop investing and any seed money will have been spent by management on large homes, fast cars, boats and airplanes.

Like Neil Young so beautifully sings....."It's a dream, only a dream'.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZGf7VMIfFY

JMO

aboard_epsilon
07-03-2010, 11:45 AM
I can give an educated guess as to who would buy such a motorcycle. Probably almost no one. Motorcyclists and "Bikers" for all of their protestations of individuality, while I love and admire them since I'm one myself, are a conservative bunch. They like to adorn their stock bikes with all sorts of blings and minor modifications, but generally, they only buy solid name brands.

The "Panther" motorcycle, if it were ever produced, will have a life span of approximately one to two years. At that point, investors will stop investing and any seed money will have been spent by management on large homes, fast cars, boats and airplanes.

Like Neil Young so beautifully sings....."It's a dream, only a dream'.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZGf7VMIfFY

JMO

or to turn all that lot on its head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrQoof1F2cQ


who is that guy ? ..


note for tony ..at the end

all thje best.markj

Deja Vu
07-03-2010, 12:08 PM
I can give an educated guess as to who would buy such a motorcycle. Probably almost no one. Motorcyclists and "Bikers" for all of their protestations of individuality, while I love and admire them since I'm one myself, are a conservative bunch. They like to adorn their stock bikes with all sorts of blings and minor modifications, but generally, they only buy solid name brands.

The "Panther" motorcycle, if it were ever produced, will have a life span of approximately one to two years. At that point.......
JMO
Oooh! At that point they are in circulation, working, while parts supplies begin to dwindle. They will shortly be recognized as highly soughtafter "one-of-a-kind' cycle/machines. So for years after there will be a number of these bikes scattered across the land. Get em' while they're cheap!:D

addin: That is, unless a resurgence of interest is generated and the bike is reproduced by a group of investible entrepeneur's who decide to take the risk of losing their shirts(figuratively) if/when the enterprise collapses.

Rustybolt
07-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Ok, I just want to try and understand why anybody here objects to me reporting somebody for breaking the law. What we have is a person that is running an internet based business in Canada from computers in Canada marketing to Canadians a non existent product. He is in violation of a number of laws respecting false advertising, misrepresenting his product and services, misrepresenting himself with intent to deceive, using an assumed name with intent to deceive and several other related offenses. These are already existing offenses not including any possible fraud that may have taken place.

So, why shouldn't I report him?



G'wan. Knock yerself out.


I'm kinda suprised anyone would get up in arms. haven't we seen all the free energy/ perpetual motion scams shown on UTube?

After a couple of years all he has is a website?
After a couple of sketches on napkins and some all nighters on sketchup, don't you think a real engineer would have cobbled together some models or at least attemped to assemble some material as proof of concept.
It's a fricken motorcycle!
Just about everything that can be done to two wheels has already been done.
How hard could it be to toss something together?

lazlo
07-03-2010, 12:46 PM
G'wan. Knock yerself out.

I'm kinda suprised anyone would get up in arms.

'Cause he argued with Evan :p

Deja Vu
07-03-2010, 01:05 PM
How hard could it be to toss something together?
Well, you'll probably want to start off by looking at the plans. Plans? Where are they?
That might give you an idea of the tools and space required to accommodate the creation process.:eek:

If you determine that the plans reveal outsourcing possibilities, then you can gain an idea of how hard it is through summing up the parts costs for a short run.

....from a simplistic viewpoint, I'd say it is quite hard to get just one together.
But to be funny here and "steal" a phrase, "knock yerself out"!:D

You know, I'd give Paul Jr. a call. That project just might resurrect his career( if it ever went dormant).

gnm109
07-03-2010, 02:11 PM
I alerted the proper agency. Their policy is to investigate but they do not report on investigations in progress or the resolution of an investigation. What happens and when is up to them. It is a branch of the RCMP and as with any investigation they do not reveal any information while it is in progress unless they deem it to be in the public interest.

Evan, I certainly don't object to you attmpting to point out potential problems to the authorities. If someone had done that early on with some of the startup machines in this country, a lot of grief would have been avoided.

I was certain that there was something wrong when it was brought out that he hadn't even attempted to register the name......that shows he doesn't intend to be around very long.

I'm sure you'll let us know if you hear something. :)

Thruthefence
07-04-2010, 09:49 AM
The scammer should Call these guys, they say, "if you can dream it, we can build it"

Here's their "Tron Light cycle"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Tron-Lightcycle-Honda-Yamaha-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Option-/220631087679?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item335ea33a3f#v4-30

radkins
07-04-2010, 11:17 AM
The scammer should Call these guys, they say, "if you can dream it, we can build it"

Here's their "Tron Light cycle"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Tron-Lightcycle-Honda-Yamaha-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Option-/220631087679?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item335ea33a3f#v4-30


I don't get it, is that an actual motorcycle that can be ridden or just some kind of art object? :confused:

Oh well at least they actually have a real bike (or whatever the hell it is).

gnm109
07-04-2010, 11:47 AM
I don't get it, is that an actual motorcycle that can be ridden or just some kind of art object? :confused:

Oh well at least they actually have a real bike (or whatever the hell it is).


Dunno but it's only $35K and the seller has been on eBay for a week. Why not bid?

:)

Thruthefence
07-04-2010, 12:00 PM
I think if you read down the page, it says it's a real, 'rideable motorcycle', with your choice of engines (or electric motor).

Not to my tastes, however.

aboard_epsilon
04-21-2011, 06:59 PM
I alerted the proper agency. Their policy is to investigate but they do not report on investigations in progress or the resolution of an investigation. What happens and when is up to them. It is a branch of the RCMP and as with any investigation they do not reveal any information while it is in progress unless they deem it to be in the public interest.

well he's still there ..what is it now ..over 12 months

http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Home.html

all the best.markj

Mcgyver
04-21-2011, 07:08 PM
well he's still there ..what is it now ..over 12 months

http://www.panthermotorcycle.com/Home.html

all the best.markj


gathering evidence. wire taps and stake outs with bad, cold coffee. Its a thankless job

John Stevenson
04-21-2011, 07:18 PM
Perhaps he would be more accountable if he caught swine flu ?

macona
04-21-2011, 08:16 PM
But his original site now links to the canadian anti-fraud center.

http://www.antifraudcentre-centreantifraude.ca/

KIMFAB
04-21-2011, 08:21 PM
Kinda like the cops we have here.
You call with an emergency and after 20 minutes on hold you describe the problem.

They will be there all right - does Tuesday work for you?
So many donuts - so little time.

john11668
04-22-2011, 05:29 PM
Not saying this is a scam but if there are any whiskey lovers out there be wary of buying forward a coveted cask from here

http://www.shelterpointdistillery.com/distillery/key-players.html

One of the big mover in the outfit has a track record

http://www.breeze-creative.com/news.php?article=12

Which was followed by

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/1790455.whisky_dream_is_over/

Cant say he will do the same again of course but a few over here would love to lay hands on him.
Just do not be tempted to buy a cask which will not be ready for the next ten years