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View Full Version : No good deed goes unrewarded.....



J Tiers
07-09-2010, 11:46 PM
I fixed the chuck (my chuck!) that the cavemen at work (my boss and the tech) had messed up by spinning drills in it...... Thanks to VERY good advice from Darin.....

Put it back on the DP this morning, and sure enough, it was spinning right on and true as you could want. Even still held a 0.093 drill tightly, despite a good deal ground off......

4 hours later, however, the boss pretty much KO'd it....... :rolleyes:

He had a setup drilling 1.062 holes in thinwall pipe with a hole saw (ordinary blu-mol holesaw). Turns out it was why he wanted me to set the DP up on-center of his (woodworkers) extruded aluminum V-block. (When not busy doing my EE thing, I am the designated machinist and setup man... it's a small shop)

Apparently he drilled/sawed through the top, but didn't remove the "washer" that he cut out..... It had fallen into the pipe, and was sitting down where the second part of the hole was to be drilled.

So he lowered the quill and went at it..... next thing I hear is a fairly loud "CRACK" noise, at which point I come over, and there is the chuck, stationary, and the spindle with the 2MT to JT3 adapter, spinning.

he's still holding the pipe etc, and says "can you turn it off?". Which I did...........

How he managed to knock a 16mm chuck off a JT3 taper, without knocking the MT2 out of the spindle, I do NOT know.....

What I do know is that the inside of the JT now looks like a motocross track, or the ground after a tractor pull. And there were actual chips around it after the crash.... obviously from inside the mating taper...... how does THAT happen? they were different from the saw chips......

Edit.... AND now one of the jaws hangs down about 15 thou below the others....... urrrrrrrrrrrrr!

I'd be annoyed if it had been a good chuck. But it was just a chuck that came to me on an old asian DP that now has a much better chuck. Still, it was a lot better than the REAL POS that was on the shop DP originally..... and is now back on it....... That thing holds a drill so it looks like a boy scout flag semaphore.

saltmine
07-10-2010, 12:22 AM
Geez! J.Tiers, I think I worked for those guys once. Would their names happen to be Moe, Larry, and Curly? (Or Manny, Moe, and Jack)

They were the only guys I knew who could hurt themselves with a two-axis milling vice bolted to a drill press table.

We put the vice on the table when one idiot almost removed his arm trying to drill a piece of angle iron (without any way to hold it).


Remember what Ron White once said: "You can't fix stupid."

Davo J
07-10-2010, 01:38 AM
I was given an old Taiwanese bench drill that had a JT3 taper on the end of a spindle instead of a MT. The taper and the Jacobs chuck looked as you described a motor cross track and the spindle was bent as well.
After straitening the shaft, I set the up the compound angle on the lathe with a good JT3 taper, and cleaned up the spindle taper. I then mounted a piece of scrap in the lathe chuck turned it true, then clamped the drill chuck onto it and cleaned up it's taper.
After putting it back together it had almost had no run out, which was a surprise. I gave it a coat of paint which made it look as good as new, but there is no fixing the table they abused with deep holes from one side to the other in an arc?
This drill came from a truck repair place and it looks as if the employee's just didn't care about equipment.

A bloke I used to work for had a 3/4 hp 16 speed pedestal drill. He used to pilot drill then drill out the inside of 2inch round bar to 1inch with reduced shank drill bits for truck tail gate bushes. The belts would slip the motor would stall or the drill bit would slip, but he would not buy a bigger machine. I used to cringe every time it grabbed and spun the drill bit in the chuck while he was doing it. The drill bits ended up being reduced, shank reduced shank drills by the time he was finished with them. Only stayed their 6 weeks, customers were coming back with broken welds, spun bushes, things not lining up, etc from his past jobs. He went out of business not long after that. I think it is safer for everyone he did, as the tail gates weighed 1-1.5 ton each.
Dave

Weston Bye
07-10-2010, 06:25 AM
No good deed goes unrewarded....

Let me correct that for you. It should read "No good deed goes unpunished"

Sounds like it is so in your particular situation Jerry.

Some of those guys can screw up something as simple as a hammer: I was the new guy in the shop and was working with an "experienced" older guy assembling a piece of machinery - I don't remember what the machinery was but I remember him picking up my ball peen hammer and drifting a detail into position by grasping the head of the hammer and forcefully jamming the end of the handle into the detail. Accomplished the task, but mushroomed the end of the wooden hammer handle. When I saw that, I wanted to use the hammer on him! :mad:

wierdscience
07-10-2010, 08:36 AM
Well it was fun while it lasted:)

Me thinks you should add key switches to all the machines and you keep the only key.Did that to our Doall bandsaw at work,haven't had to make a new blade for it in six months which is an improvement over 2 days:cool:

Liger Zero
07-10-2010, 09:37 AM
You can take that mentality too far: One shop I worked at wouldn't let anyone operate machinery and everything was key-locked so you had to have an "experienced" worker with you to do anything... which lead to to nothing getting done by the new people.

You know... because we are ALL incompetent good-for-nothing inexperienced dangerous good-for-nothings.. doesn't matter how much experience you have the LAST guy had experience too and he did this that and the other thing....

J Tiers
07-10-2010, 10:59 AM
I didn't think this rose to the level of "punishment", so I modified the old saying........

The stuff there mostly isn't MY stuff, although I am the only EE I know of who has a rollaaround toolbox at work...... BUT the only tools that are worth a crap are in fact either in my box or the tech's box. He's OK about hand tools, but isn't good with machinery.

The boss is good with neither. He had his father-in-law in (a retired mechanic who is a woodworker) to do some shop organizing and re-arrange/modify workbenches etc. The FIL sorted out the hand tools and trashed 2/3 of them (which was exactly what they needed, although I rescued a couple screwdrivers that just needed ground).

The boss will leave the shop digital calipers on the tabletop, under 2 wrenches and a screwdriver......

L-Z.... Seen that too..... at the old work they decided that, after most of us had been happily using the model shop equipment for years...... Put a stop to that right now, and slowed everything down a lot..... no more making a quick test fixture, gotta prove you need it and wait 3 weeks.

larry_g
07-10-2010, 01:28 PM
(snip)

L-Z.... Seen that too..... at the old work they decided that, after most of us had been happily using the model shop equipment for years...... Put a stop to that right now, and slowed everything down a lot..... no more making a quick test fixture, gotta prove you need it and wait 3 weeks.
Plus you have to have a good working drawing of the parts needing made....Been there. I have left work to make things at home because it was easier.

lg
no neat sig line

Carld
07-10-2010, 01:48 PM
JT, at that point I would have handed him the chuck and said, it's yours now and don't ask to borrow any of my tools.

I worked in several shops staffed by destructor's and some of them could destroy an anvil with a rubber hammer, or so it seemed. I always had my own chucks for things that had removable chucks such as drill presses and tailstocks and I didn't loan them out unless I knew the person was as careful as I am.

I is hard to believe some of the dumb and dangerous things I have seen done in job shops by so called professionals.

Liger Zero
07-10-2010, 01:54 PM
A couple of times I applied at shops, they were gun-ho to get me in because of my experience... but then they wouldn't let me do anything until I proved myself.... but I couldn't DO anything until I proved myself. Didn't last very long at any of those shops. :D

Another batch of shops in the city... these were molding companies. Notice the past tense? Three of them are gone now, one is a division of Someone Else.

I applied, took the interview, and was promptly told that they had some allegedly "super experienced educated Process Tech" from Xerox come through and over the course of three days proceeded to smash seven to ten molds costing the company millions of dollars.

They told the EXACT same story with near identical amounts of money number of molds destroyed and the fellow was always from Xerox and always "highly educated" and "had impeccable references."

Flaw with this aside from the fact they were telling the exact same story.... none of those shops had "millions" of dollars worth of tooling OR equipment, they were real hole-in-the-wall type operations where they hire crackheads, tweekers and burnout cases because that's all they could afford.


To me, the story fails to hold water... if someone destroyed ONE mold I'd be on his ass like flies on sun-ripened fecal-paste for retraining. If he destroyed a SECOND mold he'd be gone so fast his hair would liquefy and boil. Can't imagine anyone dumb enough to let a tech destroy seven molds... :rolleyes:

oil mac
07-10-2010, 01:56 PM
J Tiers, Is one of the reason that we, In the rump of the once enormous manufacturing base, Find ourselves, going down the plug hole faster every day, because of guys like your boss &others similar, Engineering or the correct use of machinery, is as a basic instinct getting to be a thing of the past ?:confused:
Even a long in the tooth old buzzard like me is noticing it over here more &more, The average guy could nowadays, not fit a nut in a monkeys mouth!
Some weeks i help a young guy in his shop for an hours, He is a decent soul, but not a clue as to how to go about simple tasks, But likes to propose how to do things in advance Not complaining about him, the basics are not taught anywhere nowadays, Trade school manual dexterity training is getting to be a thing of the past Every kid wants to only drive a computer
Little wonder 90% of the tools we buy are far eastern crap!

oil mac
07-10-2010, 02:06 PM
Liger, Does not matter how large the trail of destruction, As long as A) It is sanctioned by higher management Well paid i may add, Or B) gifted on the firm by a "brought in outside expert" No questions asked in such exigencies,
This type of management strategy only works till the firm goes belly up, Then our geniuses move on to F**K - Up the next sorry outfit
Meanwhile back out on the pacific rim things are being produced

Liger Zero
07-10-2010, 02:12 PM
J Tiers, Is one of the reason that we, In the rump of the once enormous manufacturing base, Find ourselves, going down the plug hole faster every day, because of guys like your boss &others similar, Engineering or the correct use of machinery, is as a basic instinct getting to be a thing of the past ?:confused:

People only want to hire the cheapest labor they can find, then they go on TV and set up Job Fairs and bitch about how they can't find/retain talent.

I mean no disrespect but I am going to say it: Seniority doesn't automatically mean you are God's gift to the company. Experience and a fresh perspective can lead to innovation which can lead to a cost reduction.

Seniority is a disease that is destroying companies faster I can blink. "Joe" had 37 years in doing the exact same thing on the exact same machine no one was faster than Joe at that task no one could spot the defects faster than Joe... yet everyone they brought in to work with Joe was driven off the job because Joe refused to train anyone.

He'd stand there and lament about how he hasn't had a day off in five years, that the company is trying to replace him and how he hasn't had a raise in 20 years.

Company is out of business now because Joe had a heart attack and died and they had no one to take over for him... at one point they called me up and DEMANDED that I drop what I was doing and save them from impending doom. Told them no. :)

I have close to a hundred stories like this. I haven't been alive very long compared to some of you, nor do I have the years in the work force that most of you have... however I've gone through more career changes and "new jobs" than I care to admit to.

It's not about getting the job done, no one wants to get the job done anymore. It's all about "Perms vs Temps" "Seniority vs New Talent" "Workers vs Management" "Efficiency + Cost Reduction vs Routine."

We can't challenge the world market if we're not willing to make basic structural changes to the way we do things. Embrace new efficient manufacturing methods, automate basic tasks.... I could go on for hours.

When a company is too chicken**** to stand up to it's customers and collect what it is owed so it can buy more material and make payroll.... the problem isn't me. I am not working for "up to three months" without a check. I'm not bringing 15 years experience to your company so the cranky old man in the corner can tell me that every thought in my head is wrong.

I've removed myself from the job market. Enough working for these clowns. They want my services they can pay my service fees of $165 an hour. ;)

J Tiers
07-10-2010, 07:44 PM
Had a company muck up a mold for us...... luckily they were the 3rd company to have the mold, and the product was near end-of-life.

A mold for a pair of end-cap / handles for an audio mixer. parts about 15" x 3" x 4", overall, in flame retardant foamed Noryl, IIRC. No special requirements otehr than warp and surface finish, which had to be good on 5 sides.

Their guy stuck the mold, and then pried it open with either screwdrivers or crowbars, or possibly he stuck a PART and pried THAT out of the cavity with screwdrivers, never did get the story quite clearly. (The product was my project).

Anyhow, either way you can visualise the problem........ They wanted US to pony up for fixing it, too.


Carl: I put it on the DP myself, because his was much worse than mine....... AND I had it laying around, gotten basically for free, and replaced on my machine because it had problems that bugged me.

So he didn't "borrow" it, exactly. It had been n there for 2 1/2 years without problems anyway. No problems maybe because he hadn't used it.... ;)

saltmine
07-10-2010, 07:56 PM
Reminds me of an old "Three Stooges" short.

They're carpenters, in a shop, The boss is discussing a very expensive job with a customer, when the customer asks," Are you sure this job will be in competent hands? Curly (the fat one), says, "Soitenly! We're all incompetent here!"

Liger Zero
07-10-2010, 07:56 PM
Their guy stuck the mold, and then pried it open with either screwdrivers or crowbars, or possibly he stuck a PART and pried THAT out of the cavity with screwdrivers, never did get the story quite clearly. (The product was my project).

Anyhow, either way you can visualise the problem........ They wanted US to pony up for fixing it, too.



Any molder worth the title knows you use BRASS OR ALUMINUM to scrape and pry in a steel cavity. Period the end.

Only time I use steel is on the occasion where I have to heat and sink a screw into a stubborn jam to facilitate prying. THAT was taught as a last resort, well second to last. Absolute last resort is to fire up the oxy-torch and burn the sucker out.

...and believe it or not I have $80,000 worth of "bonehead" insurance I can apply to repairing a damaged mold. It's a form of property damage insurance similar to what some mechanics carry. It's expensive but I feel it is essential and it is something I can point to during my sales pitch.

Rich Carlstedt
07-10-2010, 08:29 PM
We built dies for the plastic industry to critical dimensions
Most all our round dies had press (.001 interference) fits to maintain absolute concentricity.
To do this requires jackout threaded holes for customer disassembly.( no pry bars)
This is/was manditory on all dies before the new company took over.
They wanted to cut costs and told Engineering to redesign the dies for
less cost. Rather than talk to the shop people, and me (Mfg Eng.) they made the parts without jackouts. I found out when assembly started and went to the "new" Director of Engineering and demanded they redraw the prints for rework.
He said "No"
I asked him for his home phone number, and he gave it to me.
He then said 'Why do you want my number? "
I said " I am going to stamp it on the dies, along with the note, that this number is to be called if difficultly was encountered when diassembling the die!"
He cursed me for a few seconds, and then lamented that he would have the prints revised.
We later became great friends and he asked me if I really would have done it ?
I said " sure would have, I am the guy the customers call for all repair work problems, I would be nuts to ADD to my work for a dumb decision when I knew what would happen...and he agreed....two years later