Protecting your shop from fire

[Too_Many_Tools]

As we all know, Evan and his shop is in the crosshairs of a forest fire.

What suggestions do you have to protect a shop from a fire from the outside?

Hopefully some of your suggestions are ones that Evan can implement.

For the rest of us, it can be a learning experience.

TMT

[MTNGUN]

Steel and masonry don't burn very well.

[Carld]

100 yard radius cleared area of trees and underbrush will help. 10,000 or more gal. cistern for wetting it down or putting out falling cinders.

[Andrew_D]

Most info for dealing with WUI Fires (Wildland/Urban Interface) deals with prevention. Carld has it right...clear an area around your shop/house/whatever. The wider the better. The area from the trees to your buildings should be as non-combustible as possible. Gravel, Clay, Dirt, even green lawn will help.

Water supply and gas/diesel pump (for power outages) are good.

Metal roofs and siding. (Or cement/stone/masonry etc. as MTNGUN suggested.)

I saw an ad somewhere for a sprinkler system that you could roll along the peak of your roof to help put out sparks...maybe look into that.

Depending how big your property is, clear a ring of trees further out to act as a fire break.

Clear fallen, dead, broken, etc. limbs and trees ASAP. Don't let them become fuel for a fire.

Andrew

[KiddZimaHater]

Cinder block building with a steel roof.
And no trees within 50 ft. of the building.

[Robin R]

As someone who has lost a shop to fire, I would suggest there is a far greater risk of a fire starting from the inside. Although it is a very good idea to take steps to reduce the risk from outside, it's far more important to minimize the risks generated inside the shop. For instance, a fellow woodworker witnessed the spontanious combustion of oil soaked rags, within 10 minutes of discarding them. Welding and grinding are other areas that need to be closely monitered. If you have done any activity that might be a cause of fire, don't leave the shop staight away and carefully inspect the area before leaving. These are just some ideas that come to mind, though the subject is probably worth a small book.

[millwrong]

My plan is the "wellhead" method. I have a pile of extreme flammables located within pushin' range. Push towards the fire, and BOOM, nothing but pure cutting oil gushing up!:D

[Evan]

Oily rags are only a problem if you are using oils that oxidize such as linseed oil ( known as "drying oils"). Petroleum based oils don't oxidize and won't spontaneously combust no matter how high they are piled.

This is a serious concern for woodworkers because they frequently use drying oils when finishing wood. It is still something to be aware of but rags soaked in cutting oils or grease are relatively safe. They still present an ignitable fire hazard and should still be taken care of appropriately. For the rare occasion when I do wood work and use an oil finish I chuck the rags in the wood burning stove. A metal container with a sealing metal lid is also a safe way to store them. A large cannister from a cheap cannister set is a good storage container.

Taking down trees close to the house is of course a good fire prevention tactic. However, in this climate it also has a significant cost in winter. Trees situated on the north side of the house play a big part in reducing heat loss due to night sky radiative cooling as they reflect infrared radiation from the house back at the house.

[jugs]

Hi evan, what news of the wild fires near you, hope you are safe.
john
:)

[derekm]

Build the shop on top of a disused concrete beam covered swimming pool, Direct rainwater into the pool. THen use the rain water in pool pumped with a submersible pump to spray on the fire or on the shop. Water the vegetable plot, cool /Dehumidify the shop in summer, (just an old car radiator with pool water pumped through it).

But who would do such a thing? :)

[MTNGUN]

Build the shop on top of a disused concrete beam covered swimming pool
I suspect there are not many swimming pools in BC. :D

When I built my home in wildfire country, I made a decision to use fire resistant materials, inside and out.

When fire was knocking on our door a few years back, all my neighbors were in a panic, while I was merely annoyed at the smoke.

Then there was the time I forgot to turn off the heat treat furnace as I left the shop, and to make matters worse, the controller went haywire and locked in the "ON" position. The resultant furnace meltdown bowed the steel shop entrance door, but otherwise did no damage to the building, which has 16 inch thick stone walls.

People who build wood houses in wildfire country are in the same category as people who build in flood zones.

[Liger Zero]

To protect against internal fires, I have a sprinkler system and an ABC extinguisher at each machine... and a large "electrical extinguisher" on wheels at the doorway to the swichgear room. I eventually want to put a CO2 tank outside that room, piped up so all I have to do is close the door, open the valve and flood the room.

Basic safety practices are in effect here too, rags in the metal can, flammables in the yellow lockers, dispensers for flammable liquids... things of that nature. Most of my mold cleaning tools are brass so there is no spark hazard when I use flammable solvents on the molds... however a spark from a cartridge heater system or machine is a possibility.

Plan to switch to a non-flammable cleaner in the next few weeks, believe it or not I am having excellent luck cleaning molds with LA's Totally Awesome Orange from Dollar Tree. :rolleyes: Only a buck for a big bucket of concentrate.

[Errol]

We too here 20 km outside of Kamloops, a hundred miles from Evan's place in Williams Lake are in desert type country, surrounded by fires right now, the air so thick with smoke that on some days the water bombers can't fly.

What I have done is surrounded the shop and house with a 50 foot strip of gravel. I have a 1000 gallon water tank on trailer with high pressure fire pump with one and a half inch hose.

I have dug a 30' x 50' dugout with rubber liner, full of water. A 2hp high pressure pump supplies water by 2" pipe to 12 standpipes surrounding the buildings.

A lightning strike last week sparked a fire a half mile from here, the bombers and fire crew had it under control in less than 4 hours.

[Paul Alciatore]

Here's a tip for those m####s in California: don't use wood shingles on the roof.

I really have to wonder how much extra we all pay in insurance costs for people who insist on using them in areas that are prone to wild fires. I wonder if Nancy has wood shingles on her house. Probably does.

Yes, fireproof materials on the exterior and a good, wide clearing. If you must have landscaping, keep it low and have a good sprinkler system to keep it wet if fire threatens.

[derekm]

For internal fires, the dual purpose, large capacity argon welding gas bottle serves well ,turn it on, close the doors, with you on the other side from the bottle. makes a hell of noise as well...

[Black_Moons]

derekm: 'Now.. what bottle of mine was the argon, what one was the oxygen and what one was the actylene... hmmm'

[loose nut]

Saw an article on this a few years back.

A guy put a large mister head on the top of a pipe mounted up above his house/buildings and when it was turn on it made a mist cloud that covered quite a large area. Later his area was burned out in a forest fire and there was a picture of his place with a ring of green trees around it and then fire damage as far as you could see.

The mist was enough to keep the trees, in the mist zone, damp and also lowered the air temp preventing them from catching fire. It does require a good supply of water, more then you would get from a town supply line.

[Evan]

I have been doing some experiments on the flammability of cedar siding. I took a sample of the siding from my house and exposed it to intense radiant heating from a dual quartz tube radiant heater. It began to char with lots of smoke within 5 minutes. I took identical material and painted it with a coat of high quality solid alkyd latex stain that I thinned 50/50 with water to enhance absorption. I used only one coat and left it in the sun to dry for 5 hours sitting on the black hood of my Land Rover. It was very completely dry after that time.

I subjected the piece to the same heat treatment. It began to smoke very slightly after 15 minutes but did not begin to char even after 30 minutes exposure. At that point it was well darkened but still not about to burst into flames.

The paint colour is as close to the same as the existing colour as I could find. I had it custom mixed to match as well as possible. The result greatly surprised me. It may well be due to the previous use of only oil based stain on the siding. I am now painting the house with the latex stain. 5 minutes vs 30 to 40 minutes is a huge difference.

[The Artful Bodger]

If you live in a wild fire zone it might be worth considering having a walled courtyard around your buildings, something fire resistant, concrete, sheet iron or even straw bales faced with cement. Something to block the radiant heat.

[Evan]

My trees average about 70 to 80 feet tall. It's the top half that burns since there are no branches on the bottom half. That would have to be a very tall wall and still have any trees nearby. Also, I don't want to look at a wall. I may as well live in the city then.

[derekm]

derekm: 'Now.. what bottle of mine was the argon, what one was the oxygen and what one was the actylene... hmmm'
the green one not the black or the purple one. its the one that has a thingey so that you can turn it on with out going in to the workshop.

[Evan]

Unfortunately there are no rules what colour gas bottles must be. Green is often used for oxygen here but it could also be any other colour.

[Peter.]

Over here oxygen is black with a white top. Argon is a green colour and acetylene is marroon.

http://www.boconline.co.uk/health/gas_safety/identifying_gas_cylinders/industrial_cylinder_colours.asp

[rancherbill]

There's great ideas and plans here. I live in a area with dense bush around our house. We are two mile from a fire hall and the types of fire we would get would probably start as grass fires that would get into our brush.

I have a 1000 liter tank and gas pump and hose that I am going to get around to make into a fire fighting unit.

The type of fire that I could expect would be a wind driven fire that would approach quickly and probably last a short period 1-2 hours before local fire dept and surrounding areas would have it under control.

My question is, firemen use air tanks for smoke, is there a mask that is good for fire smoke or 'running away' the best strategy?

[Black_Moons]

Unfortunately there are no rules what colour gas bottles must be. Green is often used for oxygen here but it could also be any other colour.

My oxygen bottle AND argon bottle are both green -_-;

The actylene is red. but has a proper handle on it so I don't need to be finding no stinking wrench as my shop burns down.

[loose nut]

Some years ago one of the members of you local ME club had a nice basement shop and was building a 3 1/2" gauge loco. One day while soldering up the boiler, with a Seivert torch, he smelt something burning, looking up he saw the joists over his head burning away quite nicely. There must be a moral to that story.

[firbikrhd1]

Having been a firefighter for the past 28+ years on a department that has quite a bit of urban/wildland interface I feel I can speak to this with some practical knowledge. The usual fire safety techniques we all should be practicing, i.e. common sense with regard to flammables and open flames or sparks, keeping fire extinguishers of the proper types handy and serviceable, proper storage procedures for combustibles and flammables as well as gas cylinders and elimination of ignition sources will all serve to improve fire safety. You would be surprised how many people will do something without thinking and cause a fire or explosion. I have responded to calls where someone has been cleaning a floor with gasoline and the fumes reached a gas fired hot water heater and when someone has attempted to wash rags soaked in flammable liquids in a washing machine both with resulting "woomph", as well as the fellow that tried to dispose of gasoline in his toilet, flushed it then sat down to use it and have a smoke. Gasoline, having less density than water and not being water soluble, led to "issues". Obviously smoking hazards can be other than cancer or COPD. Too bad they didn't mention this little hazard on the side of the cigarette pack.

The next best things have already been mentioned; keep the area surrounding your building clear of vegetation, particularly lighter fuels that ignite easily. Keeping lighter fuels cleared beneath tall trees may allow you to have trees growing closer to your structures because it will be more difficult for fire to climb them, however in the event of a crowning fire the tree tops will already be involved so the threat of trees close to structures remains. Time allows fires to grow quickly, particularly when periods of low humidity have occurred, so "readily available" is important. Both terrain and weather are huge factors with regard to fire spread, intensity and firefighting techniques. Under some conditions fire can spread faster than a man can run. Controlled burns prior to fire season and conducted by your local Fire Department can help in keeping the area around your property safe.

In rural areas have a cistern or other water storage capacity readily available to fight a fire. If possible, have your reservoir at least 50' higher than the area you will be protecting in order to provide about 25 PSI, gravity fed to 3/4" hose equipped with appropriate nozzle. More pressure and greater volume is better of course, provided you have a large enough reservoir. Twenty five PSI may not be enough, when you account for friction loss, (which is dependent on diameter and length of hose lines) to provide minimally adequate reach and volume for your fire stream. A lot of fire can be put out with 500 gallons of water if it is used properly and judiciously. The object it not to extinguish the fire but to establish a "black" perimeter around your property and let the fire pass. The burned area, if it is a "true black" (no burnable fuels left in the area), will not burn again thus providing a safety zone. Reliance on electric powered pumps may place you at a disadvantage should power fail due to the fire and even a back up generator or engine powered pump may fail if oxygen is depleted below the level required to run an engine. Fire brooms may be used instead of water, thus conserving water. They are not too expensive, require little area for storage and can stop fire spread quite well in ground surface fires when used properly.

Fire resistive construction is very important but something not often thought about is covering windows. Radiant heat can penetrate windows and ignite interior fires from distances greater than one might imagine without the structure being impinged by direct flame contact. Shutters, preferably metal, can be of help here if they can be deployed ahead of time or quickly.

Water applied to the structure is more effective than a water curtain (water sprayed into the air between the fire and the structure) in preventing the effects of radiant heat or direct flame contact.

Keep access roads clear so that emergency equipment can reach you and your property without delay.

Call for assistance early and know when to get out. If your firefighting efforts prove fruitless or you are being overcome by heat or smoke it's time to leave. Your respiratory system is the most vulnerable followed by heat related injuries. The effects of either can go unnoticed until too late. Property can be replaced, people can't.