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View Full Version : Welding class... resolution (You'll like it)



J Tiers
08-16-2010, 08:54 PM
So, armed with proof that I can read, in the form of the transcript that they had to have, I went off to register tonight.

I waited an hour + to see an "advisor" who didn't even look at the transcript........ She decided I had one, so she would approve the class for me.

So, upstairs I went to registration............

Guess what? The class is now closed!

I started this process back in July, which I assumed would be plenty of time..... NOPE! I wasn't even assigned a student number until last Monday, and without that, you can't proceed any further.

While they were diddling around asking me for a transcript to prove I can read, the class filled up.

My tax dollars at work, I guess.

oldtiffie
08-16-2010, 09:07 PM
JT.

Someone seemed to have "stung" you.

You may be rewarded for your tenacity after all.

Go back next week.

Tuesday Weld may be just what you've been waiting for.

Make sure your "stinger" is in good working order for "all position" work.

Take a rest Wednesday and tell us all about it on Thursday.

As always - pics are required.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=tuesday+weld&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=266f2fb68f6eb4c

wierdscience
08-16-2010, 09:11 PM
Did you at least get mad and cause a scene?:D

J Tiers
08-16-2010, 09:12 PM
Did you at least get mad and cause a scene?:D

I promised my wife that this time she would not have to bail me out.......

oldtiffie
08-16-2010, 09:48 PM
Did you get "bailed up" JT?

Here's what it means in OZ:


bail up
vb (adverb)
1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Agriculture) Austral and NZ informal to confine (a cow) or (of a cow) to be confined by the head in a bail See bail3
2. (Historical Terms) (tr) Austral History (of a bushranger) to hold under guard in order to rob
3. (intr) Austral to submit to robbery without offering resistance
4. (tr) Austral informal to accost or detain, esp in conversation; buttonhole

from:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bail+up


Bail up.

verb
•to call some one to halt, particularly when the intention is to rob. Usually used in reference to Australian bushrangers. Possible origin: to place a cow in bails prior to milking.
He tried to bail up a traveller en route to the diggings.

from:
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/bail+up

I am choking on some of the images that those definitions suggest.

doctor demo
08-16-2010, 10:34 PM
Jerry did You get on a waiting list in case someone drops the class?
Steve

gregl
08-16-2010, 10:50 PM
Show up the first night and appeal to the instructor. As a retired college prof., I can verify that at most schools the prof has the authority to add a student. I frequently added beyond the max number because I knew there would be drops, and there always were.

Tim Clarke
08-16-2010, 11:02 PM
Be sure to check back about cancellations.

Back in the summer of '71, I signed up for a welding class at the local CC. For 2 reasons, one was I needed a welding credit for the Diesel mechanics program. The main reason was that with a credit class under my belt, I'd have returning student status, and would have preference when applying for the all too hard to get into 1st year mechanics courses. Worked like a champ, too.

However, the class was in the summer, and it was pretty hot. Seems like there were 18 of us, the class was full. By the end of the second week, it was down to 4. Those that toughed it out got lots of one on one with the instructor. Passed the arc101 with an A, challenged the final test for arc102, pased it and also got credit, with another A. So I had a 4.0 GPA, and made the dean's list.

Moral: don't give up yet!

TC

gnm109
08-16-2010, 11:29 PM
It sounds like you got "screwed, blued and tattooed".

Here's some advice - why not show up the first night with your papers and see if anyone drops the class? There are usually one or two who change their mind....

J Tiers
08-16-2010, 11:38 PM
I have talked to the instructor, so I am apprised of the facts for now..... and will probably find out if anyone drops it.

But the "machine" is not adapted to dealing with late registration, so......

I hear there may be a spring class next year.

gnm109
08-17-2010, 12:01 AM
I have talked to the instructor, so I am apprised of the facts for now..... and will probably find out if anyone drops it.

But the "machine" is not adapted to dealing with late registration, so......

I hear there may be a spring class next year.


Hmm, is this what they mean when they say Missouri is the "Show me state"? It sounds like you have to show everyone everything all of the time to get anything done....sheesh.

ADGO_Racing
08-17-2010, 12:36 AM
JT, have you considered a sex change operation, you are already technically a lesbian...:D

Maybe spend a lot of quality time in the sun, work that affirmative action status....That stuff always makes the government types smile. ;)

Maybe speak some foreign language when you go in there... Every little bit helps, the more boxes they get to check the more eager they will be to make a spot for you.

Arthur.Marks
08-17-2010, 12:52 AM
That's okay. I once signed up for a community college "welding" course and paid my tuition. After the fourth week when we still hadn't touched a torch (but had taken two tests already), about an hour into the three hour clas, I got up in the middle of the instructor's sentence, packed my papers and walked straight to the bookstore and returned my text. I never came back.
I have a relative with an HVAC "degree" from this community college, and I later learned he had the same welding instructor when he attended decades before. Apparently there was little to no practical experience back then either :)

dp
08-17-2010, 12:59 AM
My tax dollars at work, I guess.

I think it's just good old fashion American age discrimination.

oldtiffie
08-17-2010, 01:17 AM
And that, Dennis, is good old 'merican irony.

Do you think it will help JT at all if we were to remind him that Lazlo (with 3 EE degrees - 2 of 'em Masters if I recall correctly) had no problem getting enrolled in several welding etc. courses in TX recently?

It may not have been a good idea to refer to perhaps having crossed the line where ageism begins?

21 isn't it?

Or is it 30? 40? - must be 'coz 40 is VERY old in this day and age.

oldbikerdude37
08-17-2010, 03:06 AM
Here is the good news, the class will go on. It wont be shut off from lack of students.

J Tiers
08-17-2010, 08:26 AM
Tiffico:

It just MIGHT help you, you bein a furriner and all, to recall to mind the fact that Texas is an erl state.

With all them erl workers and erl stuff in gen'ral, they's a whol, lotta weldin goin on. gotta lern sumwher.

As for the age desc and so on... the course is apparently popular, and the CC diddled around so long that the class filled up. Either that, or it needs multiple EE degrees. I "only" have a BSEE and an AB, so naturally that wouldn't have been enough...... in Texas.

That's the way the cookie crumbles..... This cookie ain't grumblin (much).

I have since found out (which I was NOT told) that they give some sort of test to qualify your reading comprehension. might have acted faster than the USPO, although the CC probably would have lost the results even so.

My gripe is the apparent incompetence of the organization, even though I could verify that individuals were in fact trying to do their jobs. That, and the systemic misinformation, both verbal, and written, that I was given. While I waited last night, I saw that EVERYONE seemed to have been given some misinformation, what they were told in the application process was not how the "advisor's" office worked, and what THEY said was not how registration worked, etc.....

For instance: the reading allegedly (the explanation was written) can be satisfied by anything which offers "evidence" (their word) of having received a degree from an accredited college or university. I offered "evidence", but it was not accepted. It turns out in practice that the ONLY form in which that can be accepted is a transcript.

if that is really so, the "evidence" statement should be amended to show that ONLY a "transcript" is accepted AS "evidence". (Mind, a transcript would be required to accept "credit" from another institution, that's obvious. But a reading requirement seems different)

jep24601
08-17-2010, 08:49 AM
J Tiers - believe it or not you might do better with the Special School District here. The SSD has two Technical Colleges - South Tech and North Tech - which concentrate on trade programs and I suspect have a better reputation in that field. The only drawback there might be finding evening classes. Being the SSD I think you would find entry requirements more liberal if you had difficulty reading.

J Tiers
08-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Being the SSD I think you would find entry requirements more liberal if you had difficulty reading.

Unfortunately, I obviously have NO difficulty reading, a fact that the CC was stubborn about having me prove.

I did look into it long ago, and the CC is the one with evening classes. But the SSD, which also handles all the technical schools, has, or had, the worst website ever, so maybe that class was simply unreachable, not non-existent.

next time, maybe I should speak primarily Spanish...... could do me some good, so long as I don't address a cop in Spanish.

lazlo
08-17-2010, 10:09 AM
Lazlo had no problem getting enrolled in several welding etc. courses in TX recently?

You obviously didn't read my post. I had as much trouble registering/enrolling as Jerry did.

Jerry, the good news is now you're registered, so in the Spring, be there on the first day of class registration.

RancherBill
08-17-2010, 10:18 AM
I started this process back in July, which I assumed would be plenty of time..... NOPE!

Well that was your first mistake. You assumed that 'real world rules' were applicable. Sometimes bureaucracy works in strange ways and on different time lines. :D



I wasn't even assigned a student number until last Monday, and without that, you can't proceed any further.


The good news is you are totally setup for the NEXT class, you will be student #1.:D As an added bonus you've had an up close and personal experience with 'The World That Time Forgot'. :eek: :D

ADGO_Racing
08-17-2010, 11:43 AM
The degrees are labled :

AS = All $H^T

BS = Bull****

MS = More $H^T

PhD = all of it Piled Higher and Deeper (Higher and Deeper is redundant, but by the time we reach that level we will be too stupid to realize it is redundant).

I too put in my 4 (actually 6 as I was working while getting an Edjewmakation) years worth, I work for myself to avoid bureaucracy and office politics. It works to some degree. It is a lot less aggravating than being in their office every day.

I am not putting down the concept of education, a good education in a particular field coupled with real life experience is an awesome thing. Far too many people these days spend 4 years getting a degree, and never learn HOW to do anything. Ask me about the guy (BSME no less) who wanted to put a 1.5 inch fillet weld on a 1.5" plate so it would be strong.....(a 1/2" weld on both ends was sufficient for the applied forces.)They just sit in an office and do stupid stuff, the amazing part is someone actually pays them WELL to do stupid things.

A friend and I were recently looking at the course lineup for this years BSME and his degree path, both of us were amazed how watered both degree paths down are these days. Things of substance we had to take for each of our degrees are gone, replaced by "sensitive studies BS". We both went to a decent school for the undergrad program. It appears that a BS degree is becoming just that.... a degree in BS.

Weston Bye
08-17-2010, 12:22 PM
A friend and I were recently looking at the course lineup for this years BSME and his degree path, both of us were amazed how watered both degree paths down are these days. Things of substance we had to take for each of our degrees are gone, replaced by "sensitive studies BS". We both went to a decent school for the undergrad program. It appears that a BS degree is becoming just that.... a degree in BS.

Most high schools have given up teaching substance. Instead, everyone is given a "college prep" course of study. It must be easier teaching students to be students.

Fully a third of the students will not benefit from such a course and would have been better served by being taught a trade, or skills useful in the "real" world. Instead, the students are programmed for failure in college. The colleges are forced to include remedial classes and to lower standards in general.

At what level do they stop teaching students to be students? Many graduate with degrees that qualify them for nothing. My own experience working with some of them bears this out; some portion of my work week involves reminding or showing degreed engineers practical application of basic principles that they learned in college.

I learned basic electronics in the Navy in 14 weeks. I consider the level of knowledge gained to be the equivalent of an Associates degree now, if not a Bachelors degree. The Navy approached education with outcomes in mind; they needed a supply of knowledable personnel. The bottom line for a college is the number of paying students sitting in classes. Apparently, nothing much else matters.

lazlo
08-17-2010, 12:53 PM
I learned basic electronics in the Navy in 14 weeks. I consider the level of knowledge gained to be the equivalent of an Associates degree now, if not a Bachelors degree.

Wes, no offense, but that's a 14 week electronic technician's class. That's as similar to a 4 year EE degree as a medic is to a medical doctor.

I've skimmed through the Navy Technician's classes online, and it's Forrest Mims level electronics.

More than half of the classes an undergraduate engineer takes are math. You can't understand Emag Theory/Maxwell's Equations without vector calculus. You can't do detailed circuit analysis without linear systems and differential equations.

The DaVinci quote in my signature is very apropos. In more modern terms, quoting Black Forrest's dad :)


"Education without Experience is a dangerous thing.

Experience without Education is a dangerous thing."

Weston Bye
08-17-2010, 01:43 PM
Laslo,
I take no offense, and indeed stand corrected. Yours is a fairer comparison.

However. My point still stands that most of the "Degreed Engineers" that I deal with on a daily basis, both within the company where I work and from customers and vendors, cause me considerable extra work providing them with "continuing education" - or doing their work for them.

On the other hand, I have had situations of considerable pleasure working with knowledgable and thoughtful college graduates, both recent and aged.

lazlo
08-17-2010, 01:58 PM
My point still stands that most of the "Degreed Engineers" that I deal with on a daily basis, both within the company where I work and from customers and vendors, cause me considerable extra work providing them with "continuing education" - or doing their work for them.

I actually agree with that Wes. I'm a bit cynical, but my rule of thumb is that 80% of engineers, doctors, lawyers, welders, machinists, artists, writers, mechanics, teachers... suck. You just have to find the good ones.

..and I also agree that a engineering student fresh out of school is useless, myself included. In industry we call them "RCG's": Recent College Graduates, which is a disparaging term, meaning, go get the coffee ;).

But eventually, 20% of them learn enough to be really good at what they do.

Pete F
08-17-2010, 02:05 PM
Sturgeon's Law:

"90 percent of everything is crud."

That goes for people too.

-Pete

BWS
08-17-2010, 04:41 PM
We call those with more "paper" than sense.........knob pollishers.

Have built/engineered MAJOR projects at 1/2 dz colleges and universities and have yet to find one as well equipped as our little podunk shop.What's wrong with this picture?BW

J Tiers
08-17-2010, 08:41 PM
More than half of the classes an undergraduate engineer takes are math. You can't understand Emag Theory/Maxwell's Equations without vector calculus. You can't do detailed circuit analysis without linear systems and differential equations.


Actually, these days, one generally DOES do it without (directly) using diffy Q etc. The reason is simple, the long way takes a long time. Running a simulation takes much less time, and avoids all the writing. The methods are the same, but are underlying and invisible, done by the machine.

it does make one lazy......

gnm109
08-17-2010, 08:58 PM
Actually, these days, one generally DOES do it without (directly) using diffy Q etc. The reason is simple, the long way takes a long time. Running a simulation takes much less time, and avoids all the writing. The methods are the same, but are underlying and invisible, done by the machine.

it does make one lazy......


So with that program, one is then an engineer?

Weston Bye
08-17-2010, 09:03 PM
it does make one lazy......

And ignorant, too. I was and am very weak in math. But I know the basic formulas and how to apply them. And I mean basic: resistors in series & parallel, the relationship between voltage, current and wattage, inductance (these guys are coil experts!) , all stuff that can be done on a 4-function calculator. I am continually astonished at the engineers I deal with. They can do the math, but can't grasp the concept.

lazlo
08-17-2010, 09:39 PM
Actually, these days, one generally DOES do it without (directly) using diffy Q etc.So with that program, one is then an engineer?

You still need to know the math to run Spice, or ANSYS, or NISA, or... They're hardly plug and play.

Dr Stan
08-17-2010, 10:04 PM
Most high schools have given up teaching substance. Instead, everyone is given a "college prep" course of study. It must be easier teaching students to be students.

I learned basic electronics in the Navy in 14 weeks. I consider the level of knowledge gained to be the equivalent of an Associates degree now, if not a Bachelors degree. The Navy approached education with outcomes in mind; they needed a supply of knowledable personnel. The bottom line for a college is the number of paying students sitting in classes. Apparently, nothing much else matters.

Weston,

Unfortunately your points have some merit. I too went through a Navy technical school, Machinery Repairman Class A School to be exact. Started with an empty 3" three ring binder that I could not close at the end of the 11 1/2 week school. Your training and mine were not engineering classes and should not be confused with them. They were along the lines of technical or technician programs and are quite good.

I agree that way too many HS students are being shoved, led, directed, forced into college prep classes. Most teachers, counselors and principals have never worked in business and industry. Consequently they do not have a clue as to what it takes to succeed in the real world. Couple this with the No Child Left Behind nonsense and this is what we have today. BTW, vocational-technical classes came under fire during the 80's and most were eliminated along with Industrial Arts and Home Economics. Vo-Ag also took hits, but not quite as bad.

If I were Emperor every HS grad would have to successfully complete a one year course that would be a combination of good old fashioned Industrial Arts and Home Ec. This would apply to both genders and for any track, including college prep. If you cannot perform simple repairs such as putting a new plug on an electrical device, prepare a meal, wash clothes, check vehicle fluid levels, etc you are uneducated no matter how many letters you have behind your name.

Boucher
08-17-2010, 10:19 PM
As a Professional Engineer who has spent a lot of my career working as a Water Well driller working for Engineering firms. I have seen my share of bad Engineers that may have graduated with a high grade point average and could not find their way home in the real world. That is the Bad News. The good news is that I have a friend that is one of the best engineers that I have ever known and owns his own consulting firm. He works some engineering students as interns and hires a few upon graduation. There are some very bright and talented young engineers entering the work pool. They still need some guidance and supervision. Here in Texas an Engineer must have four or five years approved experience after graduation and pass the hardest written test you can imagine to get a Professional Engineering License.

Most engineers are wantabe machinists but most are not very good at it. I have only personally known two good engineers who were also good machinists. They were both machinists before they became engineers.

Errol Groff
08-17-2010, 10:37 PM
Next Thursday I will be starting my 23rd year teaching the machine trade at the high school level. Thank the Lord I have a few great students who make the job worh while, some so so kids who have potential to outgrow their youth and a few fellows (and young ladies) who breath my air and take up space.

Of such things are bell curves made!

One of my former students is starting his senior year at University of Connecticut School of Engineering. He was a cracker jack machine student and I am sure that he will be a fine engineer.

Errol Groff

RancherBill
08-17-2010, 10:44 PM
......There are some very bright and talented young engineers entering the work pool. They still need some guidance and supervision. Here in Texas an Engineer must have four or five years approved experience after graduation and pass the hardest written test you can imagine to get a Professional Engineering License.

+1

My son is a 4th Engineering Student (EE). He doesn't know $hit YET. The Profs have him at a way higher level, he was a 95% HS student, and the course load for Bsc. Eng. are really tough. I know he'll be great once he gets some real world experience and then challenges the P.Eng. designation exam.

To all the grumpy old men, MYSELF included, we were all green at one time. It would be interesting to read all the 'performance reviews' from when we were young.:eek:

I am still surprised I could dress myself when I was young.:D