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Elninio
08-16-2010, 11:37 PM
I was turning down a 9.5" square base plate as an adapter between my 4" chuck to a 10" rotary table, down to 6.5" today on a 10x22 import lathe. I took 200 passes at 5 thou , then 50 at 10 thou, over a distance of 5/8". The material was probably hardened judging by the chips (red, then blue), and the sound [ if it wasn't, at least it was some hard steel ]. I used the compound entirely because the piece was too big for power-feed.

The compound was poorly centered and had the best adjustment I could do had a tight spot and a loose spot, or no tight spot and a very loose spot. My index knuckle is cut and blistered from rubbing on the sharp edges of the dial, and slippage from the tight spot. The lathe was on low speed (using the timing belt), and the 1hp motor would nearly grind to a halt as the cutter was plunged into the material.

If I had that sharp and brown lathe I'm looking at buying, I could do it in 3 passes, and one finish pass [it is also a 10x20].
Do you think they use their own quality of tools to make the import hobby machine tools? That would be some tragedy ...

Elninio
08-16-2010, 11:40 PM
http://www.kingcanada.com/Files/KC-1022ML_HR.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4710/img44.jpg

Fat-girl angle shot on the import lathe. I made a post about how Syil machine tool does this to their tools, on cnczone, which got removed.

Carld
08-17-2010, 12:28 AM
If the metal was as hard as you said, it would not have been easier on any other lathe. Cutting a square plate to round is always a hard job and if the metal is hardened it is very hard to do.

If you had clearance to use the compound you should have used the carriage to hand feed it. Using the compound is not the best way to do what you did.

Tony Ennis
08-17-2010, 12:51 AM
Would you ever reasonably compare an import 10x to a Brown and Sharp?

Dr Stan
08-17-2010, 12:56 AM
Would you ever reasonably compare an import 10x to a Brown and Sharp?

that would be like comparing a Yugo with a MB or BMW.

Ries
08-17-2010, 01:14 AM
"import" is meaningless.

yep, an $800 chinese 10x20 is a lot lower in quality than a browne and sharpe.

but a browne and sharpe is a lot lower in quality than a $40,000 Schaublin "import" of the same size.

You get exactly what you pay for.
If the Browne and Sharpes were still made today, judging from current prices for HLVH's and 10EE's, they would be in the range of $50,000.
Its kinda a no brainer that a $50,000 machine will do a better job than a $1000 machine, no matter where they are made.


And no, they dont use 10x20 hobby grade lathes in factories in China- they buy a LOT of very good machines from Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Germany, and, yes, the USA- the chinese were buying over 100 Haas machines a month a couple years ago, probably less now. But the chinese are not dumb- when the job requires a big, quality machine, they buy em.

winchman
08-17-2010, 01:24 AM
"Fat-girl angle shot on the import lathe. I made a post about how Syil machine tool does this to their tools, on cnczone, which got removed."

Will someone please explain what this means?

Elninio
08-17-2010, 01:52 AM
I'm not talking about build quality or precision. Asian import lathes took old proven designs and weakened them, as long as they ~look~ the same, and that's the 'scam' they're running. They could have reinforced this lathe with extra iron, and I'd be paying probably only $500 more.

oldtiffie
08-17-2010, 02:08 AM
Was the square material "flame cut" (ie with an O/A "gas-axe")?

If it was it sure would have been hard in the "axe-cut" zone.

Just what material was it?

Elninio
08-17-2010, 02:14 AM
I'm not sure, but it was used as a baseplate for a vice (they vice didn't have a key-hole for alignment, so they mounted it on this plate). I broke a 1/8th endmill cutting it (gently of course), and the carbide that was brazed into the holder of a face mill was removed during a 200 thou deep cut when I was begining to round the corners while it was mounted on the rotary table. That's when I decided I could just put it in the lathe (after cutting a bit of the corners on the bench grinder). The plate looks to be cut by a plasma torch.

Elninio
08-17-2010, 02:16 AM
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1150/651708.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/651708.jpg/)

This is the source of the plate. The plate has positioning pins in it as well, so it's original purpose was probably not for this vice (it doesn't use the pins). Notice the pin in the bottom of the right-ward vice jaw (it is not touching the vice at all).

MuellerNick
08-17-2010, 03:24 AM
Buy a Haas!
I have been hard turning (HRC 50) on mine and the parts came out smoother than the ground original.


Nick

joegib
08-17-2010, 03:34 AM
Erm, the lathe Elninio pictured is not a Brown & Sharp but an (imported) UK Smart & Brown 1024 see here:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/smartbrown/page6.html

Joe

Black_Moons
08-17-2010, 04:40 AM
Flame cut generaly means harder then nails around the area thats cut. Clean the cut up and grind some metal away (being carful not to overheat the metal) to make it MUCH easyer to machine (in the future...)

RobbieKnobbie
08-17-2010, 07:51 AM
I'm not talking about build quality or precision. Asian import lathes took old proven designs and weakened them, as long as they ~look~ the same, and that's the 'scam' they're running. They could have reinforced this lathe with extra iron, and I'd be paying probably only $500 more.

It's not a scam... sure, they may be selling cheapened down copies of 'western built' machines, but they're selling them for pennies on the dollar. How is that a scam?

"Here, buy this lathe from me, it's half as good as a South Bend, but it costs one tenth as much!"

Pretty straightforward, I think. They're selling to a lower end market and building accordingly. For most hobbiests that's just fine. I'm tickled pink with my chi com 12x36 that I bought for $2200 to stick in my garage and run three maybe four hours a week. If I were trying to run a business with that machine it would suck hard eggs, but that's not the target audience for the machine.

It just is what it is.

Your Old Dog
08-17-2010, 08:23 AM
Your plate shows the signs of being flame cut and then smoothed up "a bit" with grinding.

Mcgyver
08-17-2010, 10:39 AM
"import" is meaningless.


exactly, for us they're both imports

aboard_epsilon
08-17-2010, 11:10 AM
Model shown in the picture is a smart and brown 1024 toolroom round head lathe

was manufactured in the uk ..

spares are still available ..as the company that took over the spares is still ongoing .

has 2.5 hp three phase motor ..and would have no problem .

weight about 1 ton

i run the yahoo group for them

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smart_and_brown_lathes/

all the best.markj

sch
08-17-2010, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=Elninio]I was turning down a 9.5" square base plate as an adapter between my 4" chuck to a 10" rotary table, down to 6.5" today on a 10x22
. The lathe was on low speed (using the timing belt), and the 1hp motor would nearly grind to a halt as the cutter was plunged into the material.


Just speculating but if the lathe you were using has the typical DC motor
with variable speed, it is likely the "1 HP" motor, on low speed was only
developing 0.1-0.2HP. DC motors with simple controllers lose a great
deal of power when dialed down. Second point is, is it really a 1HP motor
or like the treadmill motors that develop 2.5 HP, but only when run at
130VDC which none of the standard 110VAC controllers can provide.

radkins
08-17-2010, 01:14 PM
No offense meant but it sounds like the machine was being asked to do more than it was designed for and the comparison was a classic case of "apples to oranges". Another thing to consider about Chinese (I did not say "import") is that size means a lot and the 12x36 and larger machines are much better in both quality and capabilities, this is NOT to say however that they can be compared to an American or European industrial quality machine nor were they ever intended to be. Robbie hit the nail squarely on the head, the Chinese machines are ideal for most hobbyist use and the attitude that either buy industrial grade iron or nothing is simply ridiculous! Most of us simply can't afford the price of a new industrial quality machine and in spite of what some will insist there are not enough good used machines to fill the need if everyone abandoned the Chinese imports. Buy a Chinese import if it fits your needs, most of us are quite happy with them, but don't expect it to be industrial quality and don't complain about it when it turns out that it is not. When we buy these Chinese machines we are not paying for a Brown&Sharpe, not even remotely close, so why should we expect it to perform like one? If most of us had to pay even $20,000 for a lathe and a similar amount for a mill I seriously doubt the number of members on this forum would be anywhere near what they are, that is if it was even here! The fact is those Chinese machines make it possible for a lot of us to own something we otherwise could not, it is as simple as that and to tell someone who is buying a hobby machine to buy the best or just forget it simply is not being reasonable.

BTW, My $2,670 HF 14X40 is just under two years old now and has been run almost everyday without complaint, it has done everything I have asked of it and almost payed for itself two times over even though it was only bought for hobby use so how could I complain? Would I expect this lathe to perform as well in a production shop on an industrial level? Of course not but it was not bought for that purpose and it cost less than $3,000 instead of over $30,000! Before bashing the Chinese machines consider what they are sold for, both in price and intended use and be fair about it, comparing a Chinese machine to an industrial machine of the same size that cost ten times as much and complaining because the Chinese outfit does not perform as well is simply not being fair!

gary350
08-17-2010, 01:35 PM
An important note about ALL equipment. A small lathe or mill is good for a small job it would be good for a watch maker. An extremely large lathe or mill is good for large jobs it would be good for a ship builder. Always use equipments sized for the job you are doing.

I was in a factory once that repaired the main drive shaft for ships. Drive shaft was 3 ft diameter 100 ft long. The tool post has a small building on it for the operator to ride in. He got in the building at 7 am road it all the way to the end of the shaft took only 1 cut and stopped it was 3:30 pm end of his shift and time to go home. Each shift would make one pass on the shaft.

I was in a factory that made nose plates for large ships. They used a large crane to lower a 10 inch thick piece of steel into the press brake. The press was a 2000 Ton Pacific Hydraulis press laying on its back so the steel could be lowered into the die with the crane. They made a 90 degree bend in the 20 ft by 20 ft piece of steel them welded it to the nose of a ship.

radkins
08-17-2010, 02:43 PM
While that may be an extreme example it certainly does illustrate the point, buy the machine for it's intended purpose. While I could actually pay for a $50,000 lathe if I absolutely had to it would be a very irresponsible thing to to do and would cause more than a small shake-up of my finances so why would I do such a thing just for hobby use? Even paying $12,000 to $20,000 for a 14X40 lathe would have made little sense for my use and it would have served no better than the one I have, at least so far. The argument certainly could be made that I could have bought a used machine for nearly what I paid for the Chinese but that did not work out in my case, I searched for months and found only expensive and/or worn out machines. I could have expanded my search and either traveled farther or had one shipped but the hassle simply was not worth it to me and I am sure a lot of others feel the same way so I opted for the Chinese machine and it has served me well. To those who insist on the best I can honestly say I do not disagree with your choice for YOUR wants and needs and I actually admire your dedication to the hobby if that is what you are buying for.

philbur
08-17-2010, 03:25 PM
Here's a photo of my long owned and trusty Taiwanese 10 x 18 - circa 1986 (in it's new workshop) and the lead screw from my recently acquired German 10 x 20 - circa 1967. Of course the "new" price difference was probably much greater than the size difference. So if your main measure is price per kg then I quess Asia wins everytime.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x36/philbur/leadscrewlowres.jpg

Phil:)

Black_Moons
08-17-2010, 03:41 PM
philbur: Ok, but now I challange you to make an evan like post detailing at least 3 reasons *why* that giant leadscrew is better then the smaller one, for such a small lathe in a hobbiest usage envorment.

MuellerNick
08-17-2010, 04:02 PM
Here's a photo of my long owned and trusty Taiwanese 10 x 18 - circa 1986 (in it's new workshop) and the lead screw from my recently acquired German 10 x 20

That's one of the best comparisons I have ever seen. Millions of words have been wasted about that subject, keyboards worn out, ...
And you come up with a single picture that says it all!



Nick

Falcon67
08-17-2010, 04:04 PM
My little HF 9x20 has it's issues, probably chief would be the cross slide leadscrew and operation. I didn't expect much for the $600 spent. What I got was a decent tool, a learning tool and one that - surprisingly - paid for it's self in maybe a year. Unless you count the "future cost" - that is, from it making me want a nice 12x36 or 13x40 really, really bad. :) That's even funnier when you consider that I looked at the HF 12x36 before I bought the 9x20 and thought "man, that's way bigger than I need". I shoulda known!

My G0519 mill/drill isn't a BP even though it eats about the same floor space, and it's not even a BP clone. But it has allowed me to do things I could not have done as well, or at all, otherwise.

I did a lot of reading and looking, just bought what I thought was the best I could do with what $ I had to spend.

After having these machines a while, I know now I can fix that cross slide. Not what you'd want your people working on in a production shop, but it's good for me.

radkins
08-17-2010, 04:20 PM
That's one of the best comparisons I have ever seen. Millions of words have been wasted about that subject, keyboards worn out, ...
And you come up with a single picture that says it all!Nick




No that does not "say it all" because it does not address the cost difference. No one is saying the Chinese (again I am not saying import) machines are anywhere near the quality or as heavily built BUT they are perfectly adequate for a segment of the hobby crowd. No one could really argue that a Ford or Chevy midsized car is the same quality of a Mercedes Benz, for instance, but they both will get you from point A to point B so is the extra cost of the Mercedes really justified from a practical point of view? The point is that while I certainly can not and have not disagreed with you on the quality differences insisting that everyone disregard the cost difference and buy the extra quality and ability that they may not need just does not make sense. I can haul a load of groceries, about all I use it for, home from the supermarket in my Ranger truck so even though a F250 may be a lot bigger and better do I really need to buy one?

Alistair Hosie
08-17-2010, 04:26 PM
The lathe shown in Marks site is actually my own lathe shown under my carport later to become my machine shop. It cost when new 37.000.00 and I am very pleased with it;) ;)this is the 10 24 flat topped newer model with variable speed inbuilt. Alistair

MuellerNick
08-17-2010, 04:45 PM
No that does not "say it all" because it does not address the cost difference.

If someone needs any explanation why a bigger leadscrew costs more than a small one, why it will last longer, then ... nothing will say it.

And if all is just about getting from A to B, why not use a bicycle?
Means: What do you need a lathe for, files are cheaper.


Nick

Mcgyver
08-17-2010, 04:55 PM
No one could really argue that a Ford or Chevy midsized car is the same quality of a Mercedes Benz, for instance, but they both will get you from point A to point B so is the extra cost of the Mercedes really justified from a practical point of view?

the car analogy for machines is flawed in that they're a crappily made consumer product. A 50 year car is babied, driven the odd saturday in the summer, whereas a 50 year machine (of course if properly maintained) can put in full days for decades.

The vehicle equivalent to a 1024 smart brown would be something that will last as long trouble free as an old tractor but perform like a 911 turbo and sells used for less than a new chev

you're right though, there are different prices and uses and one size doesn't fit all.....still, back to car analogies, you got expect the guys on a sports car forum to raz the Yogo a bit :D

philbur
08-17-2010, 04:57 PM
It’s funny you should ask that because I carefully considered why I needed the German build Boley before I plonked down my hard-earned cash. My research turned up a large number of reasons why a large leadscrew is important and that most machinists fail to consider when purchasing a new machine. The three most important of these in no particular order of preference is:

1) The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This says that if you know the rotational speed of your leadscrew in revs per rev of the spindle then you can’t know where any one of the atoms in the leadscrew is. So if you don’t know where any of the atoms are you can’t be 100% certain of where your leadscrew is. It may have gone walkabout in your workshop and you wouldn’t Evan know it. This has great influence on the accuracy of thread cutting. So the larger the leadscrew the greater is the probability that it is where you think you see it.
2) Gravitational attraction of the Local Galactic Cluster. This effect causes the leadscrew to deflect due distortion of the local space-time continuum and this distortion has a corresponding influence on produced thread accuracy. Unfortunately keeping the garage door closed doesn’t help. The larger the screw the less is the additional local distortion.
3) The General Theory of Relativity. When the lead screw starts to rotate the angular acceleration cannot be transmitted to the other end of the leadscrew at faster than the speed of light so there is a tendency for ”relativistic windup”. If you do the math you will see that this has a significant impact on thread pitch accuracy when working to sub nanometer tolerances, as most of us do. The larger the leadscrew the less is the "relativistic windup"

300 pages of irrelevant but seemingly related supporting references are available on request.

I think the real reason for such a large leadscrew is that the German machine tool manufacturers were in a continuous ”arms race” with the Swiss and, as we know, most machinists are dumb enough (present company excepted of course) to believe that biggest is always best. I believe Schaublin where offering smallish manual lathes with a massive 40mm diameter leadscrew in the same period, the Boley 5LZ is a wimpy 36mm. We all know who won that race.

Alternative theories and comments are welcome.

Phil:)


philbur: Ok, but now I challange you to make an evan like post detailing at least 3 reasons *why* that giant leadscrew is better then the smaller one, for such a small lathe in a hobbiest usage envorment.

Toolguy
08-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Spoken like a true shop man Philbur!

radkins
08-17-2010, 06:31 PM
If someone needs any explanation why a bigger leadscrew costs more than a small one, why it will last longer, then ... nothing will say it.

And if all is just about getting from A to B, why not use a bicycle?
Means: What do you need a lathe for, files are cheaper.


Nick


I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make, you keep hamming at the fact the industrial machines are much better and heavier built than their Chinese counterpart and I have yet to see anyone disagree with that so what exactly is it you are trying to say? :confused: The point you don't seem to understand is that for a lot of people, not everyone and CERTAINLY not for a commercial shop, the quality and capabilities of the Chinese machines are quite adequate and the "better" machines (and they certainly are better) are simply not worth the extra cost for what they do with them. Give us a break, most of us are just hobbyists and would much rather have a new Chinese machine that we can afford rather than an industrial outfit that is out of reach from a practical cost standpoint or a worn out machine that will need a lot of work before it can operate as well as the new Chinese machine. IF a good used machine turns up that is priced affordably and not worn to the point that it needs work then yes, by all means choose that over a cheaply built Chinese machine but in spite of what some might want to think they simply are not as plentiful as we would like them to be. If you are talking about not buying the Chinese machine and buying new industrial equipment then that simply is not an option for the great majority of the hobbyists and they would simply be without anything. The bottom line is that for most people the only practical choice is either a worn out American or European machine or a new ready-to-run Chinese machine, most of us have no interest in rebuilding old worn out iron or spending the kind of money it would take for a new machine, it is as simple as that.

radkins
08-17-2010, 06:33 PM
the car analogy for machines is flawed in that they're a crappily made consumer product. A 50 year car is babied, driven the odd saturday in the summer, whereas a 50 year machine (of course if properly maintained) can put in full days for decades.

The vehicle equivalent to a 1024 smart brown would be something that will last as long trouble free as an old tractor but perform like a 911 turbo and sells used for less than a new chev

you're right though, there are different prices and uses and one size doesn't fit all.....still, back to car analogies, you got expect the guys on a sports car forum to raz the Yogo a bit :D



I would have to agree with your point about using the car as an example, maybe a farm tractor would be a better choice?

philbur
08-17-2010, 08:24 PM
I use to think the same but to my surprise what I discovered was that old American or European iron did no necessarily go hand in hand with worn out.

Phil:)


The bottom line is that for most people the only practical choice is either a worn out American or European machine or a new ready-to-run Chinese machine, most of us have no interest in rebuilding old worn out iron or spending the kind of money it would take for a new machine, it is as simple as that.

The Artful Bodger
08-17-2010, 09:00 PM
I use to think the same but to my surprise what I discovered was that old American or European iron did no necessarily go hand in hand with worn out.

Phil:)

I expect that is true and especially so for sizes that home machinists might be interested in as I assume many machines in that size range were bought for occasional use in maintenance departments and motor garages etc.

Incidently, I was always annoyed that we never got to use the machines in our school workshop and it seemed none of the other classes did either so that would have been a nice selection for someone when the school was eventually closed.:(


Now we can all look forward to the day, not too far away, when cheap(er) hardly used Chinese machines come on the market!:)

ldn
08-17-2010, 09:10 PM
1) The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle....
2) Gravitational attraction of the Local Galactic Cluster...
3) The General Theory of Relativity...

While all of the above are *theoretically* true, I think you are missing the primary source of error in a leadscrew.

The threaded portion of the leadscrew is in effect a coil of wire. Everyone knows that turning a coil of wire in a magnetic field (in this case the Earth's magnetic field), induces the flow of current.

This current flow produces uneven heating of the leadscrew, in proportion to where the carriage is currently located. You see, the lathe itself completes the circuit, and the position of the carriage is analogous to the position of the tap of a variable transformer.

This uneven heating causes uneven and constantly changing dimensional changes in the leadscrew. Thus the thicker leadscrew is better because it dissipates heat better.

Even better would be to deepen the ACME threads to allow them to act as a more efficient heat sink. The manufacturers haven't figured this out yet but this is the first modification that I make to all of my equipment.

LOL - thank you, your post was briliiant. :D :D :D

aboard_epsilon
08-17-2010, 09:20 PM
While all of the above are *theoretically* true, I think you are missing the primary source of error in a leadscrew.

The threaded portion of the leadscrew is in effect a coil of wire. Everyone knows that turning a coil of wire in a magnetic field (in this case the Earth's magnetic field), induces the flow of current.

This current flow produces uneven heating of the leadscrew, in proportion to where the carriage is currently located. You see, the lathe itself completes the circuit, and the position of the carriage is analogous to the position of the tap of a variable transformer.

This uneven heating causes uneven and constantly changing dimensional changes in the leadscrew. Thus the thicker leadscrew is better because it dissipates heat better.

Even better would be to deepen the ACME threads to allow them to act as a more efficient heat sink. The manufacturers haven't figured this out yet but this is the first modification that I make to all of my equipment.

LOL - thank you, your post was briliiant. :D :D :D

How about a water cooled lead screw then...drilled right down the middle.....you could have the radiator blowing on your toes to keep them warm :)

all the best.markj

ldn
08-17-2010, 09:36 PM
How about a water cooled lead screw then...drilled right down the middle.....you could have the radiator blowing on your toes to keep them warm :)

all the best.markj

*smacks forehead*

Astonishing! How could I not have thought of that all these years?!

You sir are a true man of science.

Elninio
08-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Here's a photo of my long ...

AHAHAHAHAHA! Great photo!

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/308/akab.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/akab.jpg/)

What model is your german lathe?

saltmine
08-17-2010, 10:17 PM
OK, I've read the debate, and it's starting to resemble two donkeys fighting over a turnip, in the pasture..

I couldn't afford a nice, big, expensive machine. So, I bought a HF unit. Eventually several more HF machines found their way into my shop.

Cheapass Harbor Freight. Then, I remembered what my Uncle once told me about machine tools. " A poor craftsman blames his tools." He said, and went on to say," A good machinist with a poor quality machine can make just as good parts as a marginal machinist with a top quality machine."

I went into the purchase knowing full well the quality of Asian built machines isn't as good as Clausing, Brown & Sharp, South Bend, or many others.

Over time, I learned how to deal with my machine's shortcomings. Many times, judicious use of Arkansas stones, files and sandpaper took out the "tight spots" and learning how to adjust the gibs and X, Y feed backlash helped, too. My machine tools will never be as good as the "Quality" iron a lot of guys have, but understanding how it works, and how to make it better will go a long way toward allowing me to turn out good parts. Instead of "being disappointed with the import machine" I said to myself,"I can fix that."

Dealing with a tool's shortcomings has, I believe, made me a better machinist.

philbur
08-18-2010, 07:39 AM
That phrase was coined by a generation that obvoiously never had the pleasure of working with some of the low end hobby quality Asia imports. The generation that did coined the phrase POS. ;)

Just a light hearted observation
Phil:)


Then, I remembered what my Uncle once told me about machine tools. " A poor craftsman blames his tools." He said, and went on to say," A good machinist with a poor quality machine can make just as good parts as a marginal machinist with a top quality machine."

philbur
08-18-2010, 07:49 AM
Great, your question allows me to legitimately re-open my tool gloat. My recently acquired Germany lathe is a Boley 5LZ, see link.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=40491&highlight=boley+5lz
I'm not sure it matters but my Asia lathe is 10 x 18 not 12 x 24 as you have marked on the photo.

Phil:)

wierdscience
08-18-2010, 09:45 AM
I see a chunk of scrap iron in Elninio's pic,it's bolted to the bottom of his vise.It's also probably judging by all the dowel pin holes he says are in it a piece of an old die set,nice and hard.

So we have a guy who is attempting to turn this piece of hard scrap in a hobby sized machine at probably too high a speed with a tool bit of dubious lineage.

Obviously it's the lathe's fault:rolleyes:

My question now is IF he had that Smart&Brown would he try to turn that same chunk of scrap? I'm betting he would and I'll also wager that the Smart&Brown wouldn't like it either.

Willy
08-18-2010, 01:23 PM
Let me get this right...you bought a 500 lb, $1000 dollar lathe, then attempt to cut into some flame cut material of questionable pedigree, and then expect it to perform like you imagine a 3,500 lb, $20,000 lathe might?

I'd be disappointed too....in myself.

Would you also be inclined to say that you'd be disappoint if you purchased a Chevette and it didn't perform like a Corvette?

Next time you purchase equipment go first class, spend the big bucks on first class production equipment even though you are only using it occasionally in a hobbyist environment. If time is of the essence, and you have lots of money that's the way to go.

However most of us have more time than money so subsequently we arrive at a trade-off between what we can invest in time to arrive at our goals and the dollars invested. Like the Chevette and Corvette examples I used earlier, they will both get you there. Just be prepared for a different ride, and don't be disappointed when the lower cost alternative doesn't match the performance of the higher cost machine.

It seems just a matter of common sense.

radkins
08-18-2010, 01:54 PM
However most of us have more time than money so subsequently we arrive at a trade-off between what we can invest in time to arrive at our goals and the dollars invested. Like the Chevette and Corvette examples I used earlier, they will both get you there. Just be prepared for a different ride, and don't be disappointed when the lower cost alternative doesn't match the performance of the higher cost machine.

It seems just a matter of common sense.



That is exactly the point I have been trying to make and even if it takes a few minutes longer to do a job so what? I just finished making a main shaft for a Bush-Hog gear box and it is as dimensionally accurate as I can measure it (I spent the extra time to make it as perfect as practical) and I seriously doubt it would be any closer if the lathe it was made on cost $30,000 instead of less than $3,000, at least the gear box will never know the difference. Ok so my HF lathe will not last as long as a new South Bend, Brown&Sharpe, etc at my age I couldn't care less! :)

Elninio
08-19-2010, 04:38 AM
Great, your question allows me to legitimately re-open my tool gloat. My recently acquired Germany lathe is a Boley 5LZ, see link.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=40491&highlight=boley+5lz
I'm not sure it matters but my Asia lathe is 10 x 18 not 12 x 24 as you have marked on the photo.

Phil:)

10X18, ah I think I know which model it is then, but based on the tailstock I assumed it was the shorted-down version of the 12-36 (12-24).

Elninio
08-19-2010, 04:40 AM
Let me get this right...you bought a 500 lb, $1000 dollar lathe, then attempt to cut into some flame cut material of questionable pedigree, and then expect it to perform like you imagine a 3,500 lb, $20,000 lathe might?

I'd be disappointed too....in myself.


It seems just a matter of common sense.

It's a 2000$ lathe, and I would have bought a busted up 1000$ leblond lathe if they sold them.

philbur
08-19-2010, 05:49 AM
It's Taiwanese from circa 1986, I have never come across another one like it. I would be interesting in which model you think it is.

Phil:)


10X18, ah I think I know which model it is then, but based on the tailstock I assumed it was the shorted-down version of the 12-36 (12-24).

Elninio
08-19-2010, 06:47 AM
It's Taiwanese from circa 1986, I have never come across another one like it. I would be interesting in which model you think it is.

Phil:)

I think it is similar to this model (http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=B2227L). I assumed it was this (http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-x-24-Gear-Head-Cam-Lock-Spindle-Gap-Bed-Lathe/G4002). I assumed this because the first one appeared in BusyBeeTools maybe 5 years ago, but I've seen 12x24s from the 70s, 80s for sale in the locals.

oldtiffie
08-19-2010, 07:30 AM
This sounds an awful like the "You show me yours and I'll show you mine" school kid stuff behind the (??????) shed.

Is that all there is of it?
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Is_that_all1.jpg

Or do you just wanna bigger better one anyway? (Check out the doctors car!!)

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Roadwarriors_Cars1.jpg

macona
08-19-2010, 07:44 AM
How about a water cooled lead screw then...drilled right down the middle.....you could have the radiator blowing on your toes to keep them warm :)

all the best.markj


Funny thing, those do exist on some cnc machines.

Willy
08-19-2010, 10:44 AM
It's a 2000$ lathe, and I would have bought a busted up 1000$ leblond lathe if they sold them.

Grizzly sells the same lathe for $1050.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602

With a little effort on your part you could have saved some major coin.
Irregardless it's still a thousand dollar machine even though King tacks on a 100% mark up.
Makes you wonder how they can justify that much of a price hike. The thinking must go something like..."Oh they're Canadian, they're used to it".

ammcoman2
08-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I believe the King lathe is made in Taiwan, hence the higher price. This was told to me a few years ago when I was checking their RF45 style milling machine.

The fit and finish of the King lathe is way beyond that of the Busy Bee unit.

Geoff

radkins
08-19-2010, 01:47 PM
Not saying anyone is wrong here about anything here but this sounds a great deal like what I was hearing some years ago about the differences in Jet lathes compared to what appeared to be identical models of other brands. A bunch of people assured me that "oh yes the Jet is much better built and the fit and finish quality is noticeably better, it also is made in Taiwan instead of mainland China". Well I listened and spent $1200 on the same POS I could have gotten at HF the same day for $699! I know the discussion is not about either Jet or HF and I apologize ahead of time if I am getting out of line here but anytime I see "it may look the same but it is better built" I can't help but remember what happened to me. Turns out the Jet was not made in Taiwan, was not any better quality in fit and finish or anything else and in all likelihood came from the same factory as the HF machine.

MuellerNick
08-19-2010, 02:15 PM
"it may look the same but it is better built"

They are called sales-droid's-blabla-replicators.

It is not true that the more expensive ones are better, in fact the cheaper ones are even worse. :D


Nick

radkins
08-19-2010, 02:58 PM
They are called sales-droid's-blabla-replicators.

It is not true that the more expensive ones are better, in fact the cheaper ones are even worse. :D


Nick



I can certainly agree the more expensive ones are not any better but the cheaper ones are exactly the same, the only two differences I can see from "hands on experience" is the color and the price because one is no better or worse than the other. This is what I have been pointing out all along and it was never my intention to try to portray the Chinese machines as an equivalent to the true industrial outfits. The only point I have tried to make is that IF a person wants to accept the Chinese quality (or lack of may be a better way to say it) and the short-comings these machines have then don't waste money buying a "Brand" name of the same stinking thing! The Chinese machines fill a need for the hobbyist and provide a way for a lot of them to do something they otherwise might not be able to do BUT they need to realize exactly what they are buying and be willing to accept them for what they are, this however is perfectly adequate for a large segment of the HSM hobby. I think you and I are however in full agreement that these Chinese machines have no place at all in the commercial market and anyone buying one for a full time commercial shop is very likely to be disappointed with it.

Too_Many_Tools
08-19-2010, 06:37 PM
If the Chinese product is so bad, then why haven't American companies produced a better product at a comparable price?

TMT

The Artful Bodger
08-19-2010, 06:39 PM
If the Chinese product is so bad, then why haven't American companies produced a better product at a comparable price?

TMT

And if the Chinese products are so bad why do I not see more of them for sale by disgruntled buyers?

MuellerNick
08-19-2010, 06:47 PM
why do I not see more of them for sale by disgruntled buyers?

a) They are ashamed to have to admit what they bought.
b) They are too honest to sell it to an other HSM.

The only option I have with my Chinese lathe is to keep it. Nobody would pay me the work and parts I invested in my effort to make a lathe out of it (but I still failed).
And if I sell it for a reasonable price, (50% new) it would be a total loss of labor invested.


Nick

radkins
08-19-2010, 07:10 PM
And if the Chinese products are so bad why do I not see more of them for sale by disgruntled buyers?



Because most of us who own them are quite happy with them! I still can't see why some people simply can't understand that in a lot of cases, a heck of a lot of cases, it comes down to a choice of worn out old machines, new Chinese machines or simply no machine at all. New industrial machines are simply out of reach for most hobbyists and good used machines of the size and capabilities a person might be looking for are just not always available in spite of what some will insist, besides even if they were what would happen if everyone decided to shun the China imports and insist on old iron? The answer to that is obvious, the prices of what is available would go out of sight and the supply of what few machines that are out there would simply cease to exist. The fact is that most of the Chinese machine owners are quite happy with what they have and those machines have made this hobby a reality for a great many who otherwise could not afford to participate, if someone can't understand that it has to be that they simply don't want to. Like I said before my HF lathe has served me well for nearly two years now and shows no signs of any problems developing and I seriously doubt that I could have done a single thing better on a $30,000 lathe that I have done on this one nor do I expect to have a need for the $30,000 machine in the future.

Too_Many_Tools
08-19-2010, 07:22 PM
And if the Chinese products are so bad why do I not see more of them for sale by disgruntled buyers?

Very good question.

The ones I see for sale at a reasonable price sell quickly.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-19-2010, 07:25 PM
a) They are ashamed to have to admit what they bought.
b) They are too honest to sell it to an other HSM.

The only option I have with my Chinese lathe is to keep it. Nobody would pay me the work and parts I invested in my effort to make a lathe out of it (but I still failed).
And if I sell it for a reasonable price, (50% new) it would be a total loss of labor invested.

Nick

So is it the manufacturer's fault that you invested too much time in the machine?

That is like saying because I painted a machine a color I liked that I should be paid for my efforts when I sell it.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-19-2010, 07:29 PM
The hard truth is that American companies missed a golden opportunity to sell to the hobbyist market.

Their loss...the Chinese's gain.

TMT

aboard_epsilon
08-19-2010, 07:36 PM
Hey Nick ..you got to know this

Most of the Americans do not have it like us.

They have to pay grossly inflated prices just for the worn out junk American machines never mind the good American or euro stuff ..

They are often 1000's of miles from any bargain

So many, have no choice but to buy the chinky stuff .

We are lucky here ...our prices are good ..and the machines are often within 100 miles

My smart and brown cost me 250 and my bridgy 500

my J&S surface grinder was 300 or so ......my ...oh never mind... it was all dirt cheap ..all tool room stuff ..and non over 500..but you get what i mean .

all the best.markj

MuellerNick
08-19-2010, 08:03 PM
That is like saying because I painted a machine a color I liked that I should be paid for my efforts when I sell it.


I knew that before, that you are one of those <censored> that think a reconditioning*) job is done by a quick washdown and 2kg of cheap paint.

Yes, I repainted some parts, but that would be free of charge.
BTW, I bought that crap new. I just couldn't stand the magenta on some of the parts. It reminded me of the nonsense the importer told me. And this would make me womb into the chip pan ruining my coolant.


*) meaning transferring from actual specs to claimed specs.


Nick

Mcgyver
08-19-2010, 08:25 PM
I knew that before, that you are one of those <censored> that think a reconditioning*) job is done by a quick washdown and 2kg of cheap paint.



you assign much credit. Perhaps he just thinks about painting machines and starts threads about if you had a machine what colour would paint it and would the paint the walls to match or contrast

:D

Too_Many_Tools
08-19-2010, 08:35 PM
you assign much credit. Perhaps he just thinks about painting machines and starts threads about if you had a machine what colour would paint it and would the paint the walls to match or contrast

:D

LOL...I remind you that your dues to the TMT Fan International Club are overdue. ;<)

Maybe Nick would care to enlighten us as to his many mods that took so much of his precious time?

I note that individuals who buy old American iron have to invest similar time in tweaking, cleaning and fixing to make them operational also.

TMT

MuellerNick
08-19-2010, 08:59 PM
Maybe Nick would care to enlighten us as to his many mods that took so much of his precious time?

I already did that some months ago. Maybe you stress the search function? Optimum D330 * 1000 might give a hit.

Or maybe I'll assemble a video from all the photos I made. This would finally ruin that importers business. :D He already had a loss of 30% after I published my findings and fixes in a German forum.
But the subtitles would be in German.


Nick

Mcgyver
08-19-2010, 09:06 PM
LOL...I remind you that your dues to the TMT Fan International Club are overdue. ;<)


just trying to goade you into sharing the wealth and posting some pics.....until then its not about love just credibility.

I haven't once seen you post a pic of a machine, something you've made, offer up any machining advice or even discuss any machine techniques.....after 2000 posts i haven't a shred of info to suggest you're anything but a blowhard. Doesn't mean you're not a nice guy, doesn't even mean that you are in fact a blowhard without credibility....it only means that from my paradym there are 2000 reasons why you are blowhard and zero why not. I'll gladly revise my thesis with the presentation of contrary data

radkins
08-19-2010, 09:26 PM
Nick first let me say that I admire your dedication to precision, I honestly do, but think about what I said earlier about what would happen to the supply of used machines if the Chinese outfits were not there. As a hobby home machining would become out of reach for a lot of guys and the fact is, hard as it may be for you to accept, most of us just don't require the kind of quality you seem to demand. This does not in any way mean we just don't care and I think that just about every one of us would choose a well maintained and slightly worn American or European machine if we had the choice and that seems to be where some of us disagree, it is just not that simple to go out find a nice used lathe at an affordable price. For a lot of guys it is Chinese or nothing so are you saying that unless we buy a new machine we can't really afford we should just forget it? Chinese is the only practical choice some of us have since new is too costly and rebuilding worn machines is beyond practical means both in ability and cost-not to mention the time it would take and ready to run high quality iron is just not as readily available as some think it is, it certainly was not in my case.

.RC.
08-19-2010, 10:57 PM
Pretty silly to compare a $1000 lathe to an $80 000 lathe..

wooleybooger
08-19-2010, 11:57 PM
radkins-2 very good posts,aboard epsilon- i know that all to well. i like to build things and repair stuff that has a few more days of life left in it. does that justify a $10 or 20,000 lathe? heck no. i live in a tool desert. they are simply not here. i looked on e-bay for over a year before i heard of a worn out craftsman 6x18 here. bought it,fixed it,learned on it. i then heard about a rockwell in exchange for hauling off some junk. between buying the craftsman and finding the rockwell i was more than ready to buy an HF or grizzly because i wanted one so badly. i dont do things for NASA but i am happy when i make my cranky machines turn out a good piece. the more i work with them,the more obedient they become.

wierdscience
08-19-2010, 11:58 PM
The hard truth is that American companies missed a golden opportunity to sell to the hobbyist market.

Their loss...the Chinese's gain.

TMT

Actually they didn't,no one would pay $11,000 for a SB cabinet lathe in 1990.Some may argue the Asian imports did in SB,Atlas and Logan,but even if the imports didn't exist there would still be very little business for a 1920's design lathe that cost $11,000.

There are also Taig and Sherline here and they are selling quite well for they're market.Nobody is willing to step up to the plate and build anything else so here we are.

Too_Many_Tools
08-20-2010, 01:13 AM
Actually they didn't,no one would pay $11,000 for a SB cabinet lathe in 1990.Some may argue the Asian imports did in SB,Atlas and Logan,but even if the imports didn't exist there would still be very little business for a 1920's design lathe that cost $11,000.

There are also Taig and Sherline here and they are selling quite well for they're market.Nobody is willing to step up to the plate and build anything else so here we are.

The Chinese lathes did not cost $11,000...and their American counterparts that could have been produced would not have had to cost $11,000 either.

American manufacturers made a conscious decision to ignore the hobbyist market...thereby allowing the Chinese access to the American/worldwide market.

It was a fatal shortsighted business decision.

As you point out, the American manufacturers who decided to pursue the smaller hobby lathe market are doing quite well.

TMT

oldtiffie
08-20-2010, 02:04 AM
Back to the OP:

I was turning down a 9.5" square base plate as an adapter between my 4" chuck to a 10" rotary table, down to 6.5" today on a 10x22 import lathe. I took 200 passes at 5 thou , then 50 at 10 thou, over a distance of 5/8". The material was probably hardened judging by the chips (red, then blue), and the sound [ if it wasn't, at least it was some hard steel ]. I used the compound entirely because the piece was too big for power-feed.

The compound was poorly centered and had the best adjustment I could do had a tight spot and a loose spot, or no tight spot and a very loose spot. My index knuckle is cut and blistered from rubbing on the sharp edges of the dial, and slippage from the tight spot. The lathe was on low speed (using the timing belt), and the 1hp motor would nearly grind to a halt as the cutter was plunged into the material.

If I had that sharp and brown lathe I'm looking at buying, I could do it in 3 passes, and one finish pass [it is also a 10x20].
Do you think they use their own quality of tools to make the import hobby machine tools? That would be some tragedy ...

For those that "forgot", here is the "steel plate" in question:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1150/651708.jpg

I am not at all sure that the lathe is to blame - irrespective of who made it, or what age it is or what condition it is in.

I am pretty sure that the material was flame cut and with an intermittent cut will be hard on any lathe and tool combination.

If it is as hard as the operator/OP seems to thing it is, and as the lathe-job indicated it was, and the OP pressed on regardless, I'd suggest that the OP/operator is at fault.

I have no idea what the "steel" is - nor it seems does anyone else. A lot don't seem to care as long as they have and seize an opportunity to "bag" the lathe because it is "Chinese".

The first thing I'd have done was to run a file over the flame-cut edges and get an indication of just how hard or tough it is and plan the machining accordingly.

I can't see what difference feeding by hand was if power feeding was available as the power feed is in "thous per rev" of the head-stock spindle irrespective of the speed of the spindle.

If the spindle speed was too high and/or if the feed rate was too low and/or if the wrong tool type and profile were used, the tool may have "lost its edge" and rubbed on the job and work-hardened it and only compounded the problem.

No reasonable amount of "grinding-off" the hardened areas adjacent to the flame cut would have solved the problem as the "heat affected zone" can be quite substantial. Over-heating and quenching during grinding won't help much either.

I detest "mystery" materials. If I am not sure what a material is, in many cases it will not get into the shop and if it does it goes straight to scrap. No "if"s or "but"s - out!!

If I had to choose a machine for those edges, a shaper on slow speed with negative top rake with positive front clearance and positive side rake and clearance with a deep cut (to under the heat affected zone) would be my machine-and-tool-of-choice.

oldtiffie
08-20-2010, 02:52 AM
I forgot to add in my previous post that if I were facing the job, I'd first of all see if I could drill a 1/2" (or larger) hole in the centre to see how the material cut at low surface speed as well as making it easier to start the facing cut from the centre and then "outward" so as to work from "under" the flame-cut edges and cut them gradually toward the outside/swept diameter. It is a lot easier on the tool and the machine as well.

A good amount of a good cutting oil is required as well.

There are lots of types of steel plate in a boiler or fabrication shop - some very hi-tensile as well as having some unique qualities as regards hardness and hardening. It is NOT all common "hot rolled low carbon steel plate".

I am intrigued as to why the plate was needed under the vise at all. Well I was until I noticed that there seems to be only two slotted "bolting-down" lugs on the "handle" end and none apparent on the sides or at the "fixed jaw" end. It seems as if the "fixed jaw" end is bolted to the plate from under-neath. Socket screw/s?

Ries
08-20-2010, 01:53 PM
The Chinese lathes did not cost $11,000...and their American counterparts that could have been produced would not have had to cost $11,000 either.

American manufacturers made a conscious decision to ignore the hobbyist market...thereby allowing the Chinese access to the American/worldwide market.

It was a fatal shortsighted business decision.

As you point out, the American manufacturers who decided to pursue the smaller hobby lathe market are doing quite well.

TMT


I am assuming you are not in the business of manufacturing things in the USA.
The last full on industrial lathes built in the USA, the Monarch 10EE and the Hardinge HLVH, both cost north of $60,000 today.

the last model of South Bend built in the USA, the heavy 10, was at $16,000 in the early 2000's, 6 to 8 years ago.

These prices are based on real costs, not some conspiracy to defraud you and me.

It costs a LOT to build a manual lathe these days.

There is a great discussion that was on the Practical Machinist site a couple of years ago, about the actual, real costs of making machines here.
One of the most informative sources was Brian, who owns Versa Mill, and who actually walks the walk. In his one man shop in Oregon, he manufactures machine tools in the USA. And his prices are quite high. Not because of expensive CEO's, or fancy corporate offices, or crazy OSHA Rules, or environmental restrictions, or Union Wages- as a one man shop, he is exempt from all that stuff.

Nope, his costs are based on what it costs to get ready to machine forgings made in the USA- about $3 to $4 a pound, in most cases- and then what it actually costs to make and buy the other parts to end up with a finished tool.

Real Estate, taxes, utilities, insurance, consumables, motors, switches, gears, fasteners, and yes, a bit of labor. It all adds up.

There is no way a US manufacturer could make a manual lathe these days for under ten grand.

Haas can just barely make a TL-1 for twenty grand- and a CNC lathe is cheaper to make than an equivalent manual lathe- gears and gear trains, lead screws, and scraped in bed ways, cross slides, and tailstocks are all MORE expensive than a CNC machine with linear ways.

The chinese heavily subsidize their steel, energy, foundry, and export industries, and their labor is still cheap. And even in China, inflation is rampant, and prices are rising.

Leaving China aside as a special case, other countries with reasonable standards of living and modern industrial infrastructures make lathes- Korea, The Czech Republic, Poland, Bulgaria and others- and their manual lathes in the 14x40 range are all in the ten thousand dollar and up category. And all of them are cheaper places to do business than the USA.

There are a hundred reasons why US industry doesnt even try. But if they did, there is no magic bullet that would result in US made, $3000, $5000, or even $8000 lathes bigger than a sherline.